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Do you think this is.

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Maybe the ego shot.

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Okay.

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Welcome to Radio Eco shock this week,

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we're going to investigate attempts 
by the fossil fuel industry to

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capture otherwise green thinking ports 
in the Pacific Northwest of

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the United States and Canada 
to export carbon to Asia.

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It's a battle you hardly hear about 
citizens are lining up against

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huge corporations with huge money 
to fight off giant coal ports

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liquefied natural gas ports even 
propane ports if we commit to

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that infrastructure we commit to 
devastating climate change,

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not to mention the explosive toxic 
and polluting impacts of these

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big projects on the Pacific coast.

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It's species and its people will 
first hear from activist Kevin

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Walsh book reporting from Vancouver,

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Canada and then from green radio host 
and activist Daphne why from

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Portland,

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Oregon.

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I'll wrap up with some new science 
presented at a Harvard

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University research talk Dr. James 
Anderson presents why climate

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change is coming,

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much faster than anyone thought 
possible and why it cannot be

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reversed its eco shocking radio 
I'm Alex Smith let's roll.

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Multinational corporations would like 
to turn the gorgeous port of

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Vancouver,

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Canada into another fossil fuel colony 
after call port proposals

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were blocked by a public outcry in 
the American Pacific Northwest

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they wanted to call out to Asia 
through Vancouver there's an

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active proposal to steer dirty 
tar sands oil into hundreds of

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tankers through Vancouver's scenic 
inlets even liquid natural gas

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is trying to use Vancouver as an 
outlet we've reached activist

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Kevin wash broken Vancouver he's 
part of the group voters taking

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action on climate change or veto 
back Kevin welcome to Radio Rico

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shock.

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I think to be here.

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Let's talk about call how big 
is the export business from

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Vancouver.

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Well,

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right now we have to fully functioning 
courts one in North

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Vancouver internal with which exports 
exclusively be seen course

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in the coup these and then Wes short 
and so which is the biggest

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coal in Canada and depending on 
you know who was exporting more

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it's often the biggest of the business.

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Call for North America Neptune exports 
around you know they export

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around 6 million tons of 
call the year there,

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they're trying to expand that to larger 
large volumes sure exports

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in the order 30 to 33 million tons 
of call the year and about

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about 8 million tons of that call 
is US thermal coal from the

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Tiber River Basin.

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While so they truck at all or would 
they train at all the way up

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from Wyoming.

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I guess it is.

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It is in there.

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So it comes on Warren Buffett's 
be NSF railroad up through semi

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White Rock Crescent Beach all on 
the water through there and then

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up through around Monday and over 
2 cops who were shorter.

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Why to using American call for.

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Well,

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that's,

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that's a good question their hair.

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They were plans there were plans 
for 6 coal ports on the US West

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Coast is recently you know 
3 or 4 years ago.

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Yet,

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although 2 of those projects have 
either been completely have been

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rejected or abandoned.

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And the last 2.

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The one in Oregon on the Columbia 
River faces serious difficulties

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because it's failed to receive keep 
the last permanent through the

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last project and the largest at 
Cherry Point in Washington.

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So just south of the border.

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I'm also faces serious opposition,

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including from the Lonnie nation 
which is that right.

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We reject this year after the so 
public outcry public opposition

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and really strong committee organizing 
in the state has stopped

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all these projects.

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So that leaves DC.

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You know it's sort of the backdoor.

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But the dirty doormat for US call 
on its way to Asia and so right

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now there there.

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They have been exporting this 7 million 
tons a year for some time

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70 million tons by way of comparison 
the the Cherry Point

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corporate proposal a delegation would 
be about 48 million tons of

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call here and there is this new proposal 
to build a brand new coal

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port on the fridge river in Surrey 
export exclusively American

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call 4 million times now,

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probably more in the future.

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Great.

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So what problems do Coltrane 
polls for local communities.

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Well,

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yeah,

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that's a,

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that's a good point you because 
in a specially NBC and in Metro

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they could because the other 
support authority that has,

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you know it's a federal agency.

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It's,

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it's sort of,

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almost like a Crown corporation.

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It's also regulator it has absolute 
power over decision making on

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Port Lands and that's by land basically 
all along the waterline in

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Metro Vancouver so they can approve 
a coal port but they take no

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responsibility for the external impacts 
that generates in the when

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you're mentioning now is key Coltrane 
so-called trains going to

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communities.

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You know they're extremely loud and 
they often travel at night and

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the noise levels in these things 
are over 100 decibels when the

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but the way things are going 
and that exceeds you know.

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The World Health Organization says 
nighttime noise levels should

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be below 30 decibels for for young 
people from the elderly for the

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SEC others noisy also vibration and 
you know that there's problems

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and White Rock with the the cliff 
faces slumping because of the

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vibration.

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There's also a lot of concern 
over called us,

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do you know we don't know how much 
called us is lost in these

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trains and we don't know what the 
health impacts of law term

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exposure to low levels of particular 
are from the dust.

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So that's an issue.

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The biggest one,

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the biggest concerns a diesel exhaust.

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We know,

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diesel exhaust is a carcinogen and 
if a particular discrimination

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and trains run you know within a 
climate of a number of schools

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and daycare senior centers,

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they're already running now and 
the planet it run more them so

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people are rightly concerned 
about always look.

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How have activist raised Vancouver's 
dirty coal profile in the

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media there.

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Yeah,

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it's been,

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it's been increasing process.

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You know it well and in the fall 
of 2012 a community member in

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Surrey told me about these 2 proposals 
for the expansion at

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Neptune and the new call for answer 
it for his 3 dogs and when I

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look at the numbers,

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if you added up all the proposed 
capacity if all of that call is

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exported.

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It will be more global warming pollution,

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then you know the Northern 
Gateway pipeline.

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It's a huge,

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huge issue,

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but it's all piecemeal and 
it was under the radar.

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So over the past 2.5 years we've 
managed to raise the profile

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immensely our organization and group 
based in Surrey called even

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call in dog within this year than 
others it it's process of

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working with local governments one by one,

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getting them on board about the 
issues having them caller put

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forward motions calling for you know 
proper public assessment or

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health risk assessments of these 
projects and we've actually

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presented before Metro Vancouver and 
the region eventually opposed

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this Surrey outright various House 
leaders you know climate

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scientists leaders have all come out 
saying their post in this for

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everything from the BC nurses' union 
to you then see credit union

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to the fishermen's union too you 
know to groups of said this is a

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bad idea.

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So you know,

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we've held various rallies and events 
and we've presented at the

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Port Authority AGM and it's,

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it's really a simple issue,

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you know we're saying the Port Authority 
can't make decisions that

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affect our future as a region without 
including Arsenal's decision

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and they're an extremely arrogant 
and remote organization so that

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you know that the contrast is is 
so stark that I think the media

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understand this in the broader public 
gets that you know you can't

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do you think this anymore it's it's 
you now in the 19th century

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may not you know captains 
of industry where we're,

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we're a democratic society.

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You know,

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NASA scientist James Hansen famously 
was arrested protesting

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mountaintop removal for coal,

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but in Vancouver I was tracked 
east Simon Fraser University

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professor and world energy expert 
marked a card was arrested

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blocking a coal train.

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So it sounds like you are getting 
significant by in there.

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Yeah,

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it's a pretty compelling story because 
it's a very stark one you

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know we know that we need to radically 
reduce the use of fossil

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fuels to avoid dangerous climate change,

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and it's the one study after another 
is coming out saying that you

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know we could probably burn a bit more.

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The oil and bit more a gas.

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But we absolutely can't burn more coal.

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You know 80% or more remain on the ground.

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If women avoid blowing past any 
sort of faith thresholds for

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climate change and if that's the 
case and I and I believe it's

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true bits,

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and I mean I've read,

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then there is simply no valid argument 
for building a new Cold War

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anywhere in the world could when 
she it they're gonna want you

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that race.

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So it's very black and white from 
you know many things are in life

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, but this is very black and white.

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A new Cold War in Surrey.

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It's a bad idea.

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US thermal coal exports through measuring 
Hoover is a bad idea and

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it's something that we're standing 
up and saying no to thing I

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don't think this is right.

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Trying to stop fossil fuel exports 
is like playing the game

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whack-a-mole you find one project,

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then another one pops up like the 
recent proposal to ship out

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liquid natural gas via the historic 
Fraser River tell us what's

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happening there.

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Well,

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that's another at another 
interesting thing,

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I mean you know it,

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what's kind of most interesting 
about this,

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you know,

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I guess I should say most frustrating 
is that there's no,

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there's no real effort by government 
to make people aware of these

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things you know I literally stumbled 
across this proposal because

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I was on the BBC if I'm an assessment 
project or office website,

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and there's a new proposal recently 
posted 4 from this US company

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Westpac midstream to build an LNG 
terminal on the afraid and if

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you know where to look if you go there,

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you can see that and you can make 
comment but if you don't know.

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You know I gonna find out and the 
government doesn't go along the

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Fraser and you know put up things 
on billboards or or on telephone

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poles and say,

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are you concerned about this.

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The federal government has given 
us from you know this so that

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this when they realize the certain 
size they have to let the BBC

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in federal government's now and the 
government have to decide to

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do an assessment or not so auto.

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You know it's wisdom on May said 
okay will accept comments from

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the public until June 11 to help us 
decide if we should even do an

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assessment or not,

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and furthermore if we should substitute 
the provincial assessment

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for the federal one.

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So if you didn't go to the sea.

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If they see a website.

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The Canadian run of 72 website and 
see that notice you would never

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even known that there is a comment period.

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It's very frustrating because you 
know he's a big things and we

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all need to have a say so ways 
to back up to the proposal.

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This is a plan for a brand new LNG 
terminal on the Fraser River in

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Delta BC next in the cement plants 
Federer across the river and

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just up just upstream from if you 
know Richmond this sort of all

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water mania and a big movie complex 
and all that sort of stuff.

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It would see 120 LNG tankers a year 
and 90 L&G barges here and

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going up and down the Fraser 
River now in comparison.

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Some people are somewhat more aware 
of this proposal for wood

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fiber LNG in squalor should have 
a lot of press this proposal

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Fraser will be 1.5 times as 
large also in comparison.

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The big Petronas Pacific Energy LNG 
project in Prince Rupert would

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be about 7 times larger,

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so this is a fairly small project,

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but it was they'll see a lot of 
LNG tankers on the river the

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proponent in this to me is typical bear.

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You know the project summary description 
and says we want a bogus

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facility.

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It's,

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this is the footprint,

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00:26:53,000 --> 00:23:56,000
we're gonna look at an endangered 
plants and archeological sites

252
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and what not right here.

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But once we sell that L&G and it 
goes an LNG tanker it's someone

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00:20:03,000 --> 00:22:06,000
else's responsibility when I can 
assess those risks a crazy.

255
00:22:06,000 --> 00:16:09,000
You know that's absolutely crazy 
and in the United States.

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00:16:09,000 --> 00:12:51,000
If you want to build an LNG terminal,

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the Department of Homeland Security 
and the Coast Guard require

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00:26:23,000 --> 00:21:17,000
you do connect a waterway suitability 
assessment on the entire

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tanker root out international 
waters to a distance of 3.5

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kilometers on each side because that's 
how far you know I I think

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that it cloud of be approaching travel 
and still be explosive DC

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that doesn't happen,

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00:12:11,000 --> 00:25:13,000
and there is no one asking 
the fundamental questions.

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00:25:13,000 --> 00:20:04,000
The final question,

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00:20:04,000 --> 00:24:46,000
is it a good idea to go and 
LNG terminal in the face.

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Really.

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They just simply must look and see 
if this will endanger plants or

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salmon or sturgeon at the 
site of the facility.

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It's a very narrow blinkered approach 
to assessing these kinds of

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projects.

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Wait a minute you saying that a cloud 
can come off of one of those

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tankers if they were to leak.

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There we go.

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00:23:42,000 --> 00:19:26,000
3.5 kilometers possibly on either 
side of the river into an area

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where millions of people live.

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00:21:08,000 --> 00:25:28,000
Yeah,

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00:25:28,000 --> 00:26:21,000
I know that's no okay so many 
backup and and quite hot.

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00:26:21,000 --> 00:13:55,000
So in the United States there 
there is a thing called Sandy

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National Laboratory essay and DIA 
and they conducted a study in

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the mid 2000s that.

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Said,

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you know,

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00:23:01,000 --> 00:25:34,000
how are we going to assess the risks 
from LNG tankers and and what

284
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:55,000
sort of garlands are you,

285
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:08,000
are we going to create seems so they said.

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00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:30,000
What's the worst case scenario.

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00:27:30,000 --> 00:13:11,000
Well,

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00:13:11,000 --> 00:15:14,000
the worst case scenario is you 
know an intentional rupture of

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00:15:14,000 --> 00:14:19,000
containment of Ellen of all the 
LNG vessels on a tanker from

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00:15:19,000 --> 00:20:21,000
something like a terrorist 
attack or an explosion.

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00:20:21,000 --> 00:23:05,000
So in that worst case scenario what 
hazards will be created and so

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00:23:05,000 --> 00:17:27,000
they said well within 5 kilometers.

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00:17:27,000 --> 00:22:27,000
You know,

294
00:22:27,000 --> 00:18:41,000
everything would be burnt to a crisp 
and and after 16 and I mean

295
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you have burn hazards and and freezing 
houses in these things and

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00:26:04,000 --> 00:28:25,000
he would decline over distance.

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00:18:16,000 --> 00:26:01,000
But if that cloud of LNG that is 
free if Allen she didn't ignite

298
00:26:41,000 --> 00:28:53,000
right away as it evaporate.

299
00:13:44,000 --> 00:14:39,000
Soon turns to gas before dispersing 
it can still be a risk of

300
00:16:09,000 --> 00:27:41,000
producing a fireball up 
to 3.5 kilometers away,

301
00:27:41,000 --> 00:21:53,000
so for that worst case scenario,

302
00:21:53,000 --> 00:14:07,000
we wouldn't require that L&G proponents 
examine the risks all

303
00:15:17,000 --> 00:25:29,000
along that 3 and half kilometer route 
and we want to know if there

304
00:26:09,000 --> 00:24:20,000
are people living there.

305
00:24:20,000 --> 00:22:11,000
If there are,

306
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:33,000
you know if they're significant 
infrastructure there.

307
00:22:33,000 --> 00:28:04,000
If there are,

308
00:28:04,000 --> 00:21:15,000
I know well,

309
00:21:15,000 --> 00:29:08,000
sort of any sort of property or 
public health and safety risks,

310
00:29:08,000 --> 00:25:31,000
because you know that in the States 
they say yet explicitly

311
00:25:31,000 --> 00:21:03,000
examine the possibly of 
a terrorist attack.

312
00:21:03,000 --> 00:29:34,000
You've got a look at the 
worst case scenario.

313
00:29:34,000 --> 00:28:37,000
Don't see what could happen if one 
of the things went badly wrong

314
00:20:48,000 --> 00:18:41,000
while and with so that that's smart 
to me you know you why you

315
00:18:41,000 --> 00:22:34,000
wanna know what the risks are before 
you privy sings before or

316
00:22:34,000 --> 00:24:26,000
whoever prism in Canada,

317
00:24:26,000 --> 00:28:19,000
there is no such requirement and 
although looking at here is the

318
00:29:29,000 --> 00:15:11,000
footprint of this facility.

319
00:15:11,000 --> 00:28:21,000
And it's to me,

320
00:28:21,000 --> 00:15:54,000
that's quite frankly because 
you know I am,

321
00:15:54,000 --> 00:24:16,000
I am no supporter of the 
Harper government,

322
00:24:16,000 --> 00:17:20,000
but I do know that they say that 
the risk of terrorist threats

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00:17:50,000 --> 00:26:41,000
Israel on our soil.

324
00:26:41,000 --> 00:29:11,000
Well,

325
00:29:11,000 --> 00:24:54,000
if that's the case then why you 
looking at the risks from

326
00:26:34,000 --> 00:23:07,000
transporting an extremely volatile 
substance in these battles

327
00:14:48,000 --> 00:19:00,000
through highly populated 
areas I just make sense.

328
00:18:41,000 --> 00:23:41,000
Well,

329
00:23:41,000 --> 00:21:32,000
Kevin washed brick.

330
00:21:32,000 --> 00:27:25,000
We know there are quite a few environmentally 
conscious voters in

331
00:27:25,000 --> 00:24:28,000
the Vancouver region do you worry though,

332
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:53,000
that your work to stop these proposals 
will push fossil fuels

333
00:28:43,000 --> 00:30:26,000
further north along the coast to 
swarms or to northern ports,

334
00:30:26,000 --> 00:27:48,000
like Prince Rupert or killed a man.

335
00:15:59,000 --> 00:18:50,000
That's events in question.

336
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:21,000
I don't think so,

337
00:18:21,000 --> 00:31:03,000
I think you know those 
projects in the north.

338
00:31:03,000 --> 00:18:06,000
Local people they're gonna 
make their own assessment,

339
00:18:06,000 --> 00:15:59,000
I mean I know my thoughts are in terms 
of the risks to the climate

340
00:20:19,000 --> 00:14:53,000
from L&G interims of what groups 
like the CCP in the pen.

341
00:14:53,000 --> 00:28:56,000
The news you have figured out but 
local populations are gonna

342
00:22:57,000 --> 00:19:38,000
Broadway and assess.

343
00:20:18,000 --> 00:18:41,000
The local rescue themselves and I 
and I respect their ability to

344
00:18:41,000 --> 00:31:13,000
do that and their and their interest 
in the non-I think what's

345
00:31:13,000 --> 00:25:06,000
going on here is that you know people 
down here are very aware

346
00:27:36,000 --> 00:19:30,000
that there are these big projects 
proposed up north weather's L&G

347
00:16:11,000 --> 00:28:23,000
you know it's been pipelines and 
we often don't feel like we can

348
00:28:23,000 --> 00:27:24,000
have any for say,

349
00:27:24,000 --> 00:16:17,000
and in this kind of future for BC,

350
00:16:17,000 --> 00:23:58,000
but in fact metro Vancouver.

351
00:23:58,000 --> 00:25:52,000
We really are on the front lines 
of the fossil fuel debate in

352
00:25:52,000 --> 00:31:14,000
export debate because we have proposals 
for the Kinder Morgan

353
00:31:54,000 --> 00:26:05,000
pipeline,

354
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:27,000
we've got a proposal for a new coal ports.

355
00:26:27,000 --> 00:31:11,000
Now we have a proposal for well for 
the L&G Fraser and the LNG and

356
00:31:11,000 --> 00:27:35,000
squeamish so people realize is that 
there's a lot at stake here

357
00:28:25,000 --> 00:16:08,000
and they are then it's more accessible,

358
00:16:08,000 --> 00:21:40,000
it's here you know you can have more 
to say you can get engaged in

359
00:21:40,000 --> 00:29:00,000
the debate.

360
00:29:00,000 --> 00:20:32,000
And you can learn more about it,

361
00:20:32,000 --> 00:25:55,000
so I don't think it'll pushing the 
way I think there's so many

362
00:15:56,000 --> 00:29:49,000
companies trying to push for so 
many projects at once that like

363
00:29:49,000 --> 00:17:30,000
you said,

364
00:17:30,000 --> 00:22:32,000
it's a bit of a lot more they're gonna 
pop up where they feel like

365
00:22:32,000 --> 00:25:33,000
there's a possibility.

366
00:17:44,000 --> 00:19:57,000
Where editor group voters taking 
action on climate change.

367
00:19:57,000 --> 00:24:20,000
Find most of its support to young 
people show up just older folks

368
00:25:30,000 --> 00:31:51,000
tell us about your supporters.

369
00:18:22,000 --> 00:31:02,000
That's,

370
00:31:02,000 --> 00:19:03,000
yeah,

371
00:19:03,000 --> 00:31:23,000
it's insane.

372
00:31:23,000 --> 00:21:06,000
So you know most of our 
work is done online,

373
00:21:06,000 --> 00:31:59,000
really we we engage with the public 
through you know you social

374
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:10,000
media.

375
00:32:10,000 --> 00:17:02,000
When we do events,

376
00:17:02,000 --> 00:20:14,000
I mean we always work with other 
groups we do events too.

377
00:20:14,000 --> 00:27:04,000
So it's,

378
00:27:04,000 --> 00:21:47,000
it's hard to say who's coming from 
where about it really is a

379
00:21:47,000 --> 00:32:07,000
cross section,

380
00:32:07,000 --> 00:27:10,000
there's a lot of older concerned 
folks and there's also a lot of

381
00:27:10,000 --> 00:29:32,000
young people we work a lot with 
a group called Kids for climate

382
00:30:42,000 --> 00:21:14,000
action on events that,

383
00:21:14,000 --> 00:26:56,000
and they'd rather their sort 
of a high school audience.

384
00:26:56,000 --> 00:22:57,000
I think the.

385
00:22:57,000 --> 00:25:00,000
I think the concern is widespread 
view whether it's because you're

386
00:26:40,000 --> 00:17:13,000
worried about you know the local 
environmental whether you're

387
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,000
worried about your future.

388
00:18:35,000 --> 00:24:58,000
There's something to be concerned 
about your think I guess for all

389
00:24:58,000 --> 00:30:58,000
ages.

390
00:22:49,000 --> 00:19:21,000
And so the tack.

391
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:34,000
What do you think other communities 
say in the United States or

392
00:20:54,000 --> 00:30:47,000
Britain or elsewhere could learn 
from the way you're group has

393
00:30:47,000 --> 00:17:29,000
formed and operated.

394
00:32:09,000 --> 00:22:40,000
Well,

395
00:22:40,000 --> 00:24:51,000
interesting.

396
00:24:51,000 --> 00:23:24,000
I think you know our our whole 
focus is trying to create

397
00:23:54,000 --> 00:30:46,000
opportunities for the public 
to express their concern.

398
00:30:46,000 --> 00:26:40,000
The government we train connected 
off between climate policy and

399
00:28:00,000 --> 00:21:25,000
fossil fuel exports that put climate 
at risk because the climate

400
00:21:55,000 --> 00:27:47,000
policy discussion are often pretty 
abstract like the thing that's

401
00:28:47,000 --> 00:30:59,000
happened recently with perhaps Harper 
have been saying that they

402
00:32:49,000 --> 00:23:54,000
agreed to eliminate fossil fuels 
by 2100 well 84 years and now no

403
00:23:54,000 --> 00:22:26,000
one's gonna be here is alive now and.

404
00:22:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000
And that's just an absurd abstract 
discussion we have real

405
00:26:29,000 --> 00:18:32,000
products right here right now there 
are threatening our climate.

406
00:18:32,000 --> 00:20:13,000
So I think,

407
00:20:13,000 --> 00:18:36,000
creating opportunities for the 
public to engage in explicit

408
00:20:06,000 --> 00:18:47,000
concerns are key.

409
00:18:47,000 --> 00:22:00,000
And you know we've got a lot through 
public commenting websites

410
00:23:10,000 --> 00:33:12,000
like right now for the L&G think 
we've set up a website called

411
00:25:53,000 --> 00:32:17,000
real LNG hearings.org and that brings 
together all the information

412
00:32:17,000 --> 00:25:01,000
on the Fraser River LNG proposal 
and there's a commenting tool.

413
00:25:01,000 --> 00:26:04,000
Also you can send a message directly 
to the federal and run a

414
00:26:04,000 --> 00:18:45,000
minister,

415
00:18:45,000 --> 00:23:16,000
it's easy to local government.

416
00:23:16,000 --> 00:32:19,000
So my experience is that people care 
and they want to take action

417
00:32:19,000 --> 00:25:50,000
. You know,

418
00:25:50,000 --> 00:29:23,000
they may think that they don't know 
how or they don't know during

419
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,000
the time so you create an opportunity 
put all the information.

420
00:29:26,000 --> 00:19:48,000
One place that people want to act.

421
00:19:48,000 --> 00:27:49,000
I guess just empowering people,

422
00:27:49,000 --> 00:32:30,000
that's the key empowering people.

423
00:25:11,000 --> 00:21:24,000
Can you give us your website address 
or your Facebook page.

424
00:27:54,000 --> 00:18:05,000
Sure.

425
00:18:05,000 --> 00:30:29,000
Our website is BT ACC.org 
that's a website.

426
00:30:29,000 --> 00:27:00,000
But the key,

427
00:27:00,000 --> 00:29:12,000
we're really focusing 
right now and on LNG.

428
00:29:12,000 --> 00:28:55,000
And so that's 3 real LNG hearings.org.

429
00:20:26,000 --> 00:25:36,000
Great,

430
00:25:36,000 --> 00:19:47,000
thank you so much.

431
00:19:47,000 --> 00:18:20,000
I guess Kevin washed Brooke is 
an activist in Vancouver,

432
00:18:20,000 --> 00:29:50,000
Canada.

433
00:29:50,000 --> 00:21:24,000
As part of the group voters taking 
action on climate change.

434
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:45,000
I appreciate your time.

435
00:21:45,000 --> 00:26:25,000
Kevin.

436
00:27:05,000 --> 00:19:16,000
You're welcome.

437
00:19:16,000 --> 00:21:46,000
Take.

438
00:30:18,000 --> 00:23:09,000
We will.

439
00:34:19,000 --> 00:21:22,000
You're listening to shot radio.

440
00:34:32,000 --> 00:28:03,000
I don't worry.

441
00:22:45,000 --> 00:19:49,000
I'm Alex meth at all their 
vehicle shock.org.

442
00:33:30,000 --> 00:28:34,000
What is happening on the US West Coast 
where fossil fuel companies

443
00:28:34,000 --> 00:22:57,000
raised export carbon to Asia.

444
00:22:57,000 --> 00:31:29,000
Let's tune in with a long-time 
friend of the environment.

445
00:31:29,000 --> 00:27:03,000
Daphne why for 8 years 
out of Washington DC,

446
00:27:03,000 --> 00:19:04,000
Daphne,

447
00:19:04,000 --> 00:23:57,000
host of the syndicated radio show 
Earth beat on the Pacifica

448
00:27:27,000 --> 00:21:31,000
network her articles have been published 
by both mainstream and

449
00:23:31,000 --> 00:33:43,000
alternative media now 
Japanese in Portland,

450
00:33:43,000 --> 00:30:04,000
Oregon.

451
00:30:04,000 --> 00:23:18,000
As the director of the climate and 
energy program at the Center

452
00:23:18,000 --> 00:20:11,000
for sustainable economy at the same time,

453
00:20:11,000 --> 00:34:04,000
she's an associate fellow at the 
Institute for Policy Studies.

454
00:34:04,000 --> 00:24:45,000
Daphne.

455
00:24:45,000 --> 00:23:08,000
It's so good to hear your voice 
again on Radio Echo shock,

456
00:23:08,000 --> 00:34:58,000
welcome back.

457
00:25:29,000 --> 00:20:50,000
Thanks so much.

458
00:20:50,000 --> 00:23:41,000
Alex is going to be here.

459
00:20:32,000 --> 00:23:26,000
You know I were just on post carbon 
radio on K W M are in Northern

460
00:23:26,000 --> 00:22:07,000
California with.

461
00:22:47,000 --> 00:27:31,000
Bing Gong and current IOS it was 
a wide-ranging talk I'd like in

462
00:27:31,000 --> 00:35:14,000
this instance to drill down to 
what's happening in Portland.

463
00:35:14,000 --> 00:33:15,000
The state of Oregon,

464
00:33:15,000 --> 00:27:17,000
maybe the Pacific Northwest.

465
00:27:17,000 --> 00:34:50,000
When it comes to transporting fossil 
fuels are you up for that.

466
00:33:21,000 --> 00:26:22,000
I dream.

467
00:20:23,000 --> 00:27:33,000
All right.

468
00:27:33,000 --> 00:22:26,000
Why don't we start with Portland 
what battles have been fought

469
00:22:26,000 --> 00:24:09,000
their recently against becoming 
a dirty carbon outlet.

470
00:31:00,000 --> 00:35:10,000
Well,

471
00:35:10,000 --> 00:29:14,000
one thing that people may not realize 
is that not only Portland,

472
00:29:14,000 --> 00:30:25,000
Oregon.

473
00:30:25,000 --> 00:33:26,000
Barry hit city.

474
00:33:26,000 --> 00:22:01,000
It also happened to be one of the 
first cities in the first city

475
00:22:01,000 --> 00:33:34,000
in the United States to put in place 
a climate action plan back in

476
00:33:34,000 --> 00:35:08,000
the early 1990s Portland decided that 
it really needed to take the

477
00:35:08,000 --> 00:29:02,000
climate crisis seriously an admirable,

478
00:29:02,000 --> 00:32:46,000
the city had largely been ahead of 
the curve for the rest of the

479
00:34:36,000 --> 00:30:31,000
country and who has a reputation 
intact was recognized by the

480
00:30:31,000 --> 00:35:55,000
White House's so-called climate 
championships last December,

481
00:35:55,000 --> 00:34:30,000
despite its reputation or perhaps 
in addition to that reputation.

482
00:34:30,000 --> 00:28:26,000
The measure decided that it was going 
to be a good idea to invite

483
00:32:06,000 --> 00:36:30,000
one of the biggest tar sands pipeline 
operators in the Canadian

484
00:26:21,000 --> 00:24:15,000
out Penn Beantown Pipeline Corporation 
to set up shop in

485
00:30:25,000 --> 00:27:30,000
Portland's harbors and they wanted 
to export propane from the

486
00:29:30,000 --> 00:32:34,000
terminal here in Portland he welcomed 
them with open arms.

487
00:32:34,000 --> 00:23:10,000
A lot of us began to organize cried 
foul and at the time of this

488
00:30:10,000 --> 00:24:21,000
interview.

489
00:24:21,000 --> 00:23:35,000
We seem to have one were reluctant 
to completely declare victory

490
00:25:45,000 --> 00:32:49,000
because this corporation have bottomless 
pockets and is doing all

491
00:32:49,000 --> 00:21:35,000
it can do you fight back but we we 
need to campaign both based on

492
00:21:35,000 --> 00:23:01,000
both safety issues climate issues 
and we generated thousands of

493
00:23:01,000 --> 00:31:26,000
letters and very creative involvement 
from a wide array of folks

494
00:32:26,000 --> 00:22:38,000
here in in the city,

495
00:22:38,000 --> 00:30:33,000
including Rani basically first activists 
and people taking over

496
00:31:03,000 --> 00:23:18,000
City Council hearings and we finally 
got our message across and it

497
00:23:18,000 --> 00:28:02,000
appears that time you know it is 
not going to be welcome anymore

498
00:31:32,000 --> 00:27:24,000
in in the city of Portland.

499
00:27:24,000 --> 00:21:48,000
We want to use this victory though 
not just to say no one in our

500
00:22:28,000 --> 00:29:09,000
backyard,

501
00:29:09,000 --> 00:35:34,000
but also to alert people 
to just how insane.

502
00:35:34,000 --> 00:28:09,000
It is to be pushing forward with fossil 
fuel infrastructure in the

503
00:29:39,000 --> 00:35:10,000
Pacific Northwest.

504
00:35:10,000 --> 00:29:35,000
They have been the imperative that 
we begin to ratchet down our

505
00:32:15,000 --> 00:29:07,000
overall greenhouse gas emissions.

506
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:28,000
Not only the northwest,

507
00:29:28,000 --> 00:34:32,000
but globally and to draw attention 
to the fact that the Pacific

508
00:34:32,000 --> 00:22:47,000
Northwest right now is in the 
crosshairs of the fossil fuel

509
00:22:47,000 --> 00:32:27,000
industry.

510
00:32:27,000 --> 00:24:33,000
They want to export 5 times the carbon 
and is now being proposed

511
00:26:33,000 --> 00:32:18,000
for the Keystone XL pipeline through 
our reports in Oregon and

512
00:32:58,000 --> 00:27:44,000
Washington is and very few people 
are aware of just how serious

513
00:31:14,000 --> 00:25:10,000
this however it is to our economy 
to iron beautiful rivers and

514
00:25:10,000 --> 00:36:20,000
lakes and

515
00:29:12,000 --> 00:27:16,000
outside of the northwest of course 
hero at the norms and trying to

516
00:28:16,000 --> 00:34:00,000
take on one proposal after another 
that comes down the pike.

517
00:34:00,000 --> 00:35:53,000
So rather than just playing whack-a-mole 
they which is sort of

518
00:37:33,000 --> 00:29:06,000
what a lot of groups have been doing it,

519
00:29:06,000 --> 00:32:50,000
you stop one project popped up 
an unemployed we've decided to

520
00:32:50,000 --> 00:25:26,000
declare a ban on all new fossil 
fuel infrastructure starting in

521
00:25:26,000 --> 00:33:20,000
Portland and then moving out to the 
rest of Oregon and the rest of

522
00:33:20,000 --> 00:38:45,000
the northwest and we should be getting 
a hearing over the coming

523
00:38:45,000 --> 00:36:41,000
year by city officials around this 
call we want no fossil fuel

524
00:38:41,000 --> 00:27:05,000
exports and no new fossil fuel 
infrastructure in the city.

525
00:27:05,000 --> 00:36:47,000
So that's our campaign and and 
I think we have a pretty good

526
00:37:47,000 --> 00:31:28,000
chance of winning.

527
00:26:19,000 --> 00:29:59,000
Yeah,

528
00:29:59,000 --> 00:37:20,000
it would be such a different story.

529
00:37:20,000 --> 00:33:54,000
If you're exporting solar panels 
in bulk or wind machines.

530
00:28:05,000 --> 00:23:46,000
Sure,

531
00:23:46,000 --> 00:29:16,000
yeah,

532
00:29:16,000 --> 00:37:49,000
I mean we would love to be doing 
something along those lines,

533
00:37:49,000 --> 00:32:34,000
and in fact that's that's the vision 
that Portland quite action

534
00:32:34,000 --> 00:40:18,000
plan today called for which is you 
know I get under way ahead of

535
00:40:18,000 --> 00:27:43,000
the curve trying to push for by 
Kabul and walkable cities could

536
00:30:03,000 --> 00:36:56,000
drastically reducing greenhouse 
gas emissions increasing public

537
00:38:46,000 --> 00:33:47,000
transit.

538
00:33:47,000 --> 00:36:19,000
So it just doesn't make sense.

539
00:36:19,000 --> 00:35:43,000
We found that the emissions from 
Justice Warren propane terminal

540
00:38:13,000 --> 00:36:38,000
alone over several decades would be 
larger than the entire city of

541
00:38:08,000 --> 00:39:31,000
Portland's emissions if if our missions 
were to continue to go

542
00:39:31,000 --> 00:30:02,000
down.

543
00:30:02,000 --> 00:34:56,000
So I just didn't make sense from 
a climate action perspective to

544
00:35:36,000 --> 00:39:58,000
be proceeding with this this terminal.

545
00:29:49,000 --> 00:33:59,000
Right.

546
00:33:59,000 --> 00:26:02,000
It's almost like changing your light 
bulbs at home but along a

547
00:26:02,000 --> 00:25:44,000
coal plant to be built next door.

548
00:25:44,000 --> 00:33:25,000
So as you know.

549
00:33:25,000 --> 00:32:18,000
Billionaire Warren Buffet is having 
a hard time finding a place to

550
00:32:48,000 --> 00:27:32,000
unload his call trains 
for shipping to China,

551
00:27:32,000 --> 00:26:36,000
what have you heard about new coal 
ports in the Pacific Northwest

552
00:26:36,000 --> 00:29:37,000
. Well,

553
00:29:37,000 --> 00:33:47,000
you know,

554
00:33:47,000 --> 00:36:31,000
there's been quite a few proposals 
all export terminals in the

555
00:36:31,000 --> 00:33:36,000
Pacific Northwest and almost all 
of them have been defeated.

556
00:33:36,000 --> 00:30:57,000
We have 2,

557
00:30:57,000 --> 00:39:59,000
there are still on the table,

558
00:39:59,000 --> 00:38:43,000
one in Long View Washington 
and one in Cherry Point:

559
00:38:43,000 --> 00:40:19,000
both are for over 40 million tons 
of coal exports per year they

560
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:24,000
won in Cherry Point Washington is 
on Native American land on the

561
00:41:24,000 --> 00:33:56,000
only land and they are,

562
00:33:56,000 --> 00:39:41,000
they are fighting and waging a very 
serious battle against that

563
00:25:12,000 --> 00:35:35,000
call export terminal because they 
argue that it would violate

564
00:37:15,000 --> 00:32:30,000
their treaties and would affect 
their fisheries the other

565
00:32:30,000 --> 00:27:45,000
proposals that have been tabled 
by up and down the the Columbia

566
00:27:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000
River have have been withdrawn,

567
00:36:47,000 --> 00:32:11,000
essentially by the investors 
over the past 5 years,

568
00:32:11,000 --> 00:30:55,000
you may have to do with the fact that 
call increasingly has become

569
00:33:15,000 --> 00:35:17,000
less and less profitable,

570
00:35:17,000 --> 00:33:31,000
we also suspect it has something 
to do with the fact that these

571
00:34:51,000 --> 00:40:07,000
very same terminal began to look 
attractive for oil exports.

572
00:40:07,000 --> 00:26:22,000
Soon as we get rid of a of a coal 
terminal an oil terminal as

573
00:26:22,000 --> 00:39:02,000
proposed,

574
00:39:02,000 --> 00:40:16,000
in fact the largest oil terminal 
in the entire United States is

575
00:40:46,000 --> 00:36:30,000
being proposed right across the river 
from Portland in the event

576
00:37:30,000 --> 00:26:57,000
Koura Washington and that battle 
is now being wedged between on

577
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:08,000
the one hand,

578
00:26:08,000 --> 00:39:02,000
there's any plan for a major development 
on the riverfront that a

579
00:39:02,000 --> 00:27:16,000
lot of people are very excited 
to see happen with you know

580
00:30:36,000 --> 00:27:50,000
condominiums and businesses ride 
along the river and should this

581
00:28:10,000 --> 00:36:54,000
oil terminal get built there that 
project will not go forward.

582
00:36:54,000 --> 00:32:49,000
So there's a lot of tension between 
those 2 different types of

583
00:34:29,000 --> 00:42:40,000
development that have being proposed.

584
00:42:40,000 --> 00:39:21,000
But you know,

585
00:39:21,000 --> 00:30:43,000
over and over again.

586
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:04,000
These oil,

587
00:30:04,000 --> 00:33:49,000
gas and coal corporations are using 
very sneaky tactics they'll

588
00:33:49,000 --> 00:36:11,000
claim for example,

589
00:36:11,000 --> 00:42:45,000
one of the ways 30 oil company managed 
to get the Bakken crude

590
00:27:36,000 --> 00:35:29,000
managed to be exported along 
the Columbia River,

591
00:35:29,000 --> 00:32:51,000
they got me a port,

592
00:32:51,000 --> 00:35:15,000
claiming it was going to be used 
as a bio refinery the bio

593
00:37:25,000 --> 00:41:38,000
refinery went bankrupt and there 
and once they had already gotten

594
00:42:38,000 --> 00:32:42,000
the amended for the bio refinery 
they changed it to an oil

595
00:32:42,000 --> 00:41:05,000
terminal so there's all sorts 
of tricky schemes that these

596
00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:18,000
industries are using outright lies,

597
00:43:18,000 --> 00:32:00,000
claiming that they are,

598
00:32:00,000 --> 00:37:30,000
you know,

599
00:37:30,000 --> 00:43:03,000
for example in the case of the propane 
terminal they claimed it

600
00:27:14,000 --> 00:36:58,000
was going to be used for the women 
to cook with him in Asia,

601
00:36:58,000 --> 00:34:42,000
we found that in fact it was on the 
used to be making proclaiming

602
00:37:52,000 --> 00:31:26,000
and plastics and nothing to do with 
the alleviating the poverty

603
00:40:46,000 --> 00:38:08,000
were women in in Asia.

604
00:38:08,000 --> 00:40:11,000
So you know we have to be on our 
guard against these companies

605
00:40:41,000 --> 00:28:22,000
there,

606
00:28:22,000 --> 00:33:06,000
they're using every strategy they 
can Oregon apparently is number

607
00:33:06,000 --> 00:27:40,000
3 nationally as a target for Alex funds,

608
00:27:40,000 --> 00:32:14,000
that's one of the right wing anti-environmental 
and and climate

609
00:33:34,000 --> 00:34:38,000
denialist groups that's been pushing 
a a very strong legislative

610
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:22,000
agenda in favor of big energy and 
they're going up oil you know.

611
00:34:22,000 --> 00:41:32,000
So we're,

612
00:41:32,000 --> 00:34:25,000
we're really fighting on all 
fronts here in the north.

613
00:34:56,000 --> 00:40:07,000
Now going ask you about that.

614
00:40:07,000 --> 00:43:00,000
I mean whenever big oil money 
comes into an area.

615
00:43:00,000 --> 00:34:13,000
There's a chance for corruption 
and certainly you can woo

616
00:34:13,000 --> 00:31:27,000
politicians with the ideas of more 
jobs and a better economy,

617
00:31:27,000 --> 00:42:31,000
and eventually I wonder is it even 
compatible with local democracy

618
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:16,000
and and freedom to in your area to 
allow these companies to come

619
00:28:16,000 --> 00:32:18,000
in and start working the 
way you're describing.

620
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:31,000
Well that's that's compared threat.

621
00:30:31,000 --> 00:29:45,000
I think that's that's looming for 
region is you know it's yet to

622
00:29:45,000 --> 00:37:59,000
potentially will change the and not 
just the political nature of

623
00:38:29,000 --> 00:34:20,000
this region,

624
00:34:20,000 --> 00:42:02,000
but you know the entire economy.

625
00:42:02,000 --> 00:43:36,000
It was shaped in a completely different 
direction when we start

626
00:43:36,000 --> 00:42:11,000
welcoming in trains and trains 
and terminals and refineries

627
00:38:32,000 --> 00:34:36,000
suddenly start looking a lot more 
like Texas than Oregon both

628
00:35:16,000 --> 00:41:29,000
politically and you know environmentally 
and that's certainly not

629
00:43:49,000 --> 00:36:02,000
what a lot of people moved 
to the Pacific Northwest.

630
00:36:02,000 --> 00:31:16,000
His experience and that the 
values of the northwest,

631
00:31:16,000 --> 00:34:00,000
but you know we have in addition 
to the the traditional political

632
00:34:00,000 --> 00:44:40,000
concerns.

633
00:44:40,000 --> 00:37:14,000
There's also of course the concerns 
that Native Americans have

634
00:37:14,000 --> 00:33:09,000
around preserving their trade is 
a concern has been without a

635
00:34:39,000 --> 00:44:53,000
court and try to get these treaties 
upheld for Native Americans is

636
00:45:23,000 --> 00:41:47,000
that in some cases if they lose 
their truly get weekend.

637
00:41:47,000 --> 00:44:11,000
So it's a great at great risk that 
they go to court and try to get

638
00:45:41,000 --> 00:33:36,000
these treaties upheld and that's 
another potential setback that

639
00:35:36,000 --> 00:39:57,000
unfortunately once again.

640
00:39:57,000 --> 00:41:30,000
Native Americans have an awful 
lot to lose in this battle.

641
00:38:01,000 --> 00:41:45,000
This is Radio Eco shark with Augusta 
long time Green radio host

642
00:43:25,000 --> 00:32:10,000
and activist Stephanie Weisz another 
big do you know Darfuris is

643
00:32:40,000 --> 00:38:23,000
to announce massive liquid 
natural gas terminals.

644
00:38:23,000 --> 00:41:45,000
We've got a government 
in British Columbia,

645
00:41:45,000 --> 00:35:49,000
the got elected promising all the 
jobs in the money and and you

646
00:35:49,000 --> 00:31:12,000
know our budget would be totally 
balanced once we get these LNG

647
00:32:32,000 --> 00:40:22,000
plants,

648
00:40:22,000 --> 00:46:03,000
which have not materialized.

649
00:46:03,000 --> 00:32:15,000
Incidentally,

650
00:32:15,000 --> 00:43:27,000
what about LNG in the Pacific Northwest.

651
00:37:28,000 --> 00:41:08,000
Well,

652
00:41:08,000 --> 00:39:12,000
that's another big battle that we're 
facing right now we've got 2

653
00:40:22,000 --> 00:38:57,000
major pipelines being proposed just 
for Oregon one in southern

654
00:38:57,000 --> 00:37:00,000
Oregon that they want to build its over$7

655
00:37:10,000 --> 00:36:45,000
billion pipeline that they want to 
build through the southern part

656
00:36:45,000 --> 00:41:50,000
of Oregon and then have the export 
terminal export LNG from coups

657
00:42:30,000 --> 00:45:44,000
they Oregon and another one in northern 
Oregon and Washington,

658
00:45:44,000 --> 00:38:19,000
Oregon and both of these 
projects would involved.

659
00:38:19,000 --> 00:35:10,000
Of course,

660
00:35:10,000 --> 00:34:45,000
massive equation land that a 
lot of it in private hands.

661
00:34:45,000 --> 00:35:48,000
And in many cases they are claiming,

662
00:35:48,000 --> 00:45:50,000
eminent domain.

663
00:45:50,000 --> 00:35:26,000
You know as an argument in favor 
of her example 10 about$25,000

664
00:40:56,000 --> 00:44:27,000
per acre,

665
00:44:27,000 --> 00:40:42,000
which is way below the market value 
due to land borders and the

666
00:40:42,000 --> 00:37:06,000
irony in this is that many of these 
LNG companies are actually

667
00:38:46,000 --> 00:40:29,000
foreign owned and they're 
claiming eminent domain,

668
00:40:29,000 --> 00:32:02,000
which is you know of course 
it's for export.

669
00:32:02,000 --> 00:43:55,000
So a lot of people that I was lifting 
these LNG terminals are

670
00:44:55,000 --> 00:32:06,000
saying,

671
00:32:06,000 --> 00:35:16,000
you know,

672
00:35:16,000 --> 00:42:56,000
how,

673
00:42:56,000 --> 00:44:21,000
how can he possibly be using a law 
that was created to develop

674
00:44:21,000 --> 00:39:46,000
infrastructure for people in the United 
States taking on land away

675
00:39:46,000 --> 00:33:21,000
from us in order to facilitate the 
profits of foreign corporations

676
00:36:01,000 --> 00:33:15,000
that are just bypassing all of our 
our legal structures in order

677
00:33:15,000 --> 00:36:29,000
to to build this pipeline and exported 
it to other countries.

678
00:36:29,000 --> 00:42:20,000
So there's a lot of resistance.

679
00:42:20,000 --> 00:37:21,000
But again,

680
00:37:21,000 --> 00:42:25,000
not with so much money on achieve 
all a lot of politicians are

681
00:34:16,000 --> 00:47:47,000
lining up to support this,

682
00:47:47,000 --> 00:40:22,000
and certainly our local paper 
The Oregonian seems to be

683
00:33:24,000 --> 00:39:07,000
completely in the pocket of the fossil 
fuel industry which written

684
00:39:07,000 --> 00:36:30,000
editorials saying that climate 
change is not a concern for

685
00:37:00,000 --> 00:43:14,000
Oregonian Gennaro regularly trumpeting 
all the benefits of these

686
00:43:54,000 --> 00:48:15,000
fossil fuel exports.

687
00:48:15,000 --> 00:44:57,000
So we're in a bit of a,

688
00:44:57,000 --> 00:35:08,000
you know,

689
00:35:08,000 --> 00:41:50,000
in a bit of a of a war 
here in the northwest.

690
00:41:50,000 --> 00:45:04,000
In terms of both keeping people 
informed about what's really

691
00:45:04,000 --> 00:46:38,000
happening and and taking you know 
holding our elected officials

692
00:48:28,000 --> 00:38:49,000
accountable.

693
00:37:40,000 --> 00:40:02,000
Does the state of Oregon allow fracas.

694
00:39:23,000 --> 00:36:50,000
Now it has not banned tracking 
this actually did come up this

695
00:36:50,000 --> 00:40:44,000
year and that there wasn't a bill 
that originally was going to ban

696
00:40:44,000 --> 00:42:58,000
for acting and then it sort of morphed 
into regulating tracking

697
00:46:48,000 --> 00:41:41,000
and that created a huge uproar where 
people said no we don't want

698
00:41:41,000 --> 00:34:32,000
to regulate it.

699
00:34:32,000 --> 00:40:55,000
We want ban it out outcry currently 
there as far as I know there's

700
00:43:05,000 --> 00:36:40,000
very little in the way of any sort 
of gas exploitable gas reserves

701
00:36:40,000 --> 00:43:03,000
anywhere in Oregon but I think he 
would have an awfully hard time

702
00:47:03,000 --> 00:46:24,000
for hacking in Oregon.

703
00:46:25,000 --> 00:35:47,000
Well that's good to hear now Daphne,

704
00:35:47,000 --> 00:37:21,000
I know you continue to keep track 
of US national policy as well.

705
00:37:21,000 --> 00:41:54,000
What do you make of President Obama 
taking you know he talks

706
00:43:04,000 --> 00:34:58,000
strongly about climate change and 
any approves exploration for

707
00:35:58,000 --> 00:42:21,000
more fossil fuels in the fragile 
Arctic by Shell Oil.

708
00:36:32,000 --> 00:34:34,000
You know you're getting as good as mine.

709
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,000
Alex I'm I'm just mystified at 
you know how he can not take

710
00:42:29,000 --> 00:44:00,000
especially of late.

711
00:44:40,000 --> 00:39:52,000
In his last 2 years in office,

712
00:39:52,000 --> 00:38:46,000
where I think it's so much more freely 
disputed boldly about the

713
00:39:56,000 --> 00:46:59,000
climate crisis and seems to 
be taking an awful lot of

714
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,000
opportunities to speak out on it.

715
00:39:32,000 --> 00:45:05,000
Why he would on the one hand take these,

716
00:45:05,000 --> 00:34:16,000
you know,

717
00:34:16,000 --> 00:46:19,000
take these actions do for example 
restrict coal-fired power plant

718
00:46:19,000 --> 00:35:34,000
emissions and and increase 
energy efficient,

719
00:35:34,000 --> 00:49:37,000
fuel-efficient automobiles and then 
at the same time allow for

720
00:49:37,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Arctic drilling and massive oil 
and gas chemical exports.

721
00:36:32,000 --> 00:35:56,000
I suppose it may have something 
to do with the fact that he was

722
00:37:16,000 --> 00:36:40,000
the number one recipient of BP's 
funds when he was running for

723
00:39:10,000 --> 00:43:01,000
office.

724
00:43:01,000 --> 00:37:16,000
I don't know if he's still feeling 
beholden to his donors.

725
00:37:16,000 --> 00:39:20,000
It's really hard to understand why 
he why he is acting only hears

726
00:39:20,000 --> 00:36:13,000
. And again on the international front.

727
00:36:13,000 --> 00:35:24,000
I was disappointed.

728
00:35:24,000 --> 00:46:35,000
The leaders of industrial countries,

729
00:46:35,000 --> 00:42:09,000
the G7 could only promise an end to 
carbon emissions by the end of

730
00:42:09,000 --> 00:40:51,000
this century 85 years away.

731
00:40:51,000 --> 00:41:04,000
That's way too late to avoid 
catastrophic climate change.

732
00:41:04,000 --> 00:36:45,000
What do you think.

733
00:48:45,000 --> 00:41:56,000
That's right,

734
00:41:56,000 --> 00:46:21,000
I mean we had a proposal that whereas 
the Germans and the G7 were

735
00:48:01,000 --> 00:36:57,000
trying to you get indeed curb innovation 
of all other G7 economies

736
00:42:27,000 --> 00:50:12,000
by 20-50 and the Canadians and 
the Japanese pushed back on

737
00:50:42,000 --> 00:44:24,000
urgently and said no,

738
00:44:24,000 --> 00:45:39,000
but we were sign on to do carbon 
the station by 2100 of course is

739
00:46:39,000 --> 00:36:21,000
a non-binding agreement.

740
00:36:21,000 --> 00:39:04,000
So even if it were 2050 it would be,

741
00:39:04,000 --> 00:49:39,000
wouldn't be all that that exciting 
but 2100 it is still far out

742
00:35:00,000 --> 00:50:23,000
you know past it the lifetime of 
any of these folks at the table

743
00:35:14,000 --> 00:50:16,000
and I'm sure they felt very comfortable 
making this agreement and

744
00:42:47,000 --> 00:37:29,000
kicking the can down the road.

745
00:37:29,000 --> 00:45:03,000
The Japanese apparently are very 
heavily invested you know coal

746
00:45:03,000 --> 00:44:27,000
fire power you know he's learned 
that explains their reluctance,

747
00:44:27,000 --> 00:50:32,000
do you see any decrease in their 
investments in coal and I I I

748
00:50:32,000 --> 00:48:16,000
suppose the Canadians do the tourist 
town are reluctant to see

749
00:41:37,000 --> 00:50:52,000
decolonization any trying to do but 
you seem to suggest in in our

750
00:51:42,000 --> 00:43:27,000
last conversation tar sands profits 
are plummeting as their own.

751
00:50:27,000 --> 00:46:58,000
That's true.

752
00:46:58,000 --> 00:48:11,000
It's just too expensive to 
produce the tar sands.

753
00:48:11,000 --> 00:38:33,000
You need at least$60

754
00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:44,000
to$70

755
00:43:14,000 --> 00:42:28,000
a barrel to do it and they're only 
getting about 40 to 45 they

756
00:42:28,000 --> 00:35:54,000
don't get world prices because the 
tires and requires so much work

757
00:35:54,000 --> 00:50:16,000
at the refinery to get a usable 
product that they get a lower

758
00:51:16,000 --> 00:39:57,000
price.

759
00:39:57,000 --> 00:51:29,000
So they're losing some money and it,

760
00:51:29,000 --> 00:37:34,000
what's happening is this massive layoffs 
in Alberta and I mean big

761
00:37:34,000 --> 00:36:49,000
big big layoffs and the financing 
for these companies is getting

762
00:37:39,000 --> 00:38:11,000
hard to get and their stocks,

763
00:38:11,000 --> 00:49:54,000
according to one of our 
guests went down 70%,

764
00:49:54,000 --> 00:41:07,000
so that's a big drop in their 
stock value as well.

765
00:37:08,000 --> 00:42:39,000
Interesting.

766
00:42:39,000 --> 00:45:19,000
Well,

767
00:45:19,000 --> 00:46:00,000
that may be.

768
00:46:00,000 --> 00:52:02,000
Let me explain why they're trying to do.

769
00:52:02,000 --> 00:40:39,000
Also some of the same companies 
cap into the acts Gaston and

770
00:46:39,000 --> 00:52:34,000
propane byproduct of that in the past 
have been treated as a waste

771
00:37:05,000 --> 00:43:25,000
gas,

772
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:47,000
it's another revenue stream for them.

773
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:31,000
You now do you expect much concrete 
to come out of the pair's

774
00:43:41,000 --> 00:49:42,000
climate talks later this year.

775
00:38:34,000 --> 00:44:47,000
Well I'm I'm always hopeful.

776
00:44:47,000 --> 00:47:27,000
Well,

777
00:47:27,000 --> 00:39:41,000
I I had that they haven't been 
I I went to the climate

778
00:39:41,000 --> 00:42:56,000
negotiations in Kyoto and I went 
to several others after that and

779
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:48,000
I haven't been to the last few years,

780
00:43:48,000 --> 00:53:21,000
and I was just feeling very discouraged 
about all of the

781
00:40:12,000 --> 00:43:36,000
brinksmanship and which which is what 
you always see it with these

782
00:44:56,000 --> 00:48:10,000
conferences nobody shows their hand 
until long after midnight on

783
00:48:10,000 --> 00:42:44,000
the final made and finally everybody's 
scrambling on very little

784
00:42:44,000 --> 00:48:56,000
sleep to come up with an agreement.

785
00:48:56,000 --> 00:52:00,000
It just seemed like you know I dream 
of of chess with the planets

786
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:53,000
. The fate of the planet at 
stake over and over again.

787
00:52:53,000 --> 00:43:36,000
I got I kind of very tiresome.

788
00:43:36,000 --> 00:50:37,000
This time,

789
00:50:37,000 --> 00:46:31,000
you know we do how China coming 
to the table with an agreement

790
00:52:31,000 --> 00:50:27,000
with the United States that does seem 
to have potentially at least

791
00:51:57,000 --> 00:45:02,000
broken a logjam between the developing 
countries and that the

792
00:45:22,000 --> 00:51:45,000
wealthy countries that we saw over 
and over again played out its

793
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:06,000
climate negotiations.

794
00:53:06,000 --> 00:49:10,000
So it seems that the dynamics 
could be different enough to

795
00:37:41,000 --> 00:43:55,000
potentially a shift things moving forward.

796
00:43:55,000 --> 00:51:59,000
But whether we'll see the kind of 
truly dramatic commitments that

797
00:53:39,000 --> 00:46:42,000
are needed to stabilize the 
climate earning trying to,

798
00:46:42,000 --> 00:52:42,000
you know,

799
00:52:42,000 --> 00:41:47,000
I'm not that hopeful but I I I do 
think to think well at least

800
00:42:37,000 --> 00:51:28,000
begin to shift at this next Senate.

801
00:52:58,000 --> 00:42:39,000
Fox.

802
00:50:29,000 --> 00:39:20,000
You know.

803
00:40:10,000 --> 00:38:53,000
Now America has elections 
coming up eventually,

804
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:16,000
do you expect the same rogues 
gallery of Republican climate

805
00:40:16,000 --> 00:39:29,000
deniers to be elected again in Congress.

806
00:53:49,000 --> 00:38:36,000
I think the Republicans have a very 
slim chances of gaining the

807
00:38:36,000 --> 00:49:06,000
presidency.

808
00:49:06,000 --> 00:50:30,000
I think that they have a higher likelihood 
of retaining control of

809
00:50:30,000 --> 00:52:23,000
the south and in the house when 
you have somebody like Hillary

810
00:52:23,000 --> 00:54:34,000
Clinton running for office.

811
00:54:34,000 --> 00:47:30,000
I think you know just given her 
stature nationally and and

812
00:49:00,000 --> 00:44:51,000
globally.

813
00:44:51,000 --> 00:54:04,000
She probably stand a greater 
chance than any of the other

814
00:40:55,000 --> 00:39:18,000
candidates they're running but a 
lot can happen between now and

815
00:39:18,000 --> 00:48:41,000
20-16 that's my prediction 
at this point in time,

816
00:48:41,000 --> 00:44:36,000
oil processing Bernie Sanders surprisingly 
gaining on Hillary

817
00:44:36,000 --> 00:54:56,000
Clinton.

818
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:19,000
He is an independent and a 
self-proclaimed socialist.

819
00:55:19,000 --> 00:43:23,000
So that's a huge surprise 
for the United States.

820
00:43:23,000 --> 00:47:14,000
I think what it suggests,

821
00:47:14,000 --> 00:41:09,000
is that people have had enough of 
either candidate really avoiding

822
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:03,000
the issue of income inequality and 
Bernie standard but there is

823
00:41:43,000 --> 00:48:16,000
taking on the corporations in the 
banks like no other candidate is

824
00:48:16,000 --> 00:39:57,000
right now.

825
00:50:47,000 --> 00:51:20,000
You know I remember after the financial 
crash that Bernie Sanders

826
00:54:50,000 --> 00:46:34,000
actually came out and described 
who runs America and it was

827
00:49:14,000 --> 00:50:17,000
revealing he talked for hours and 
hours and hours on the record.

828
00:50:17,000 --> 00:49:59,000
It was great stuff.

829
00:49:59,000 --> 00:41:50,000
Well,

830
00:41:50,000 --> 00:39:42,000
I see that scientists say.

831
00:39:42,000 --> 00:52:14,000
Climate change will look very different 
from region to region,

832
00:52:14,000 --> 00:54:57,000
and we saw that again this year 
in North America with a hot

833
00:40:08,000 --> 00:46:02,000
exceptionally dry western a cool 
snow rainy east is it a big

834
00:47:42,000 --> 00:54:46,000
problem that citizens experience climate 
change so locally and yet

835
00:54:46,000 --> 00:50:29,000
the problem demands a global solution.

836
00:44:30,000 --> 00:54:20,000
Well,

837
00:54:20,000 --> 00:45:13,000
I mean in terms of the 
deserving Northwest,

838
00:45:13,000 --> 00:47:47,000
one of the things that we are preparing 
for a which is a little

839
00:47:47,000 --> 00:49:58,000
bit alarming is there.

840
00:49:58,000 --> 00:51:32,000
Niger influx of climate refugees 
to the northwest,

841
00:51:32,000 --> 00:46:35,000
city officials tell us that they're 
expecting you know the

842
00:48:35,000 --> 00:44:58,000
population in Portland for example 
to increased by several hundred

843
00:45:58,000 --> 00:43:50,000
thousand in the coming decades.

844
00:43:50,000 --> 00:51:55,000
So I think you know Californian 
dried up and continues to drag.

845
00:51:55,000 --> 00:47:09,000
We probably will see quite a 
few people moving north from

846
00:47:09,000 --> 00:40:52,000
California wetter climates.

847
00:40:52,000 --> 00:42:48,000
Is it problematic how climate change 
out with regard to I I don't

848
00:42:48,000 --> 00:55:20,000
fully understand what what what what 
you mean by that question can

849
00:55:20,000 --> 00:46:31,000
be retrained.

850
00:43:32,000 --> 00:55:42,000
Well,

851
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:05,000
it's just that you know the old 
story about the elephant people

852
00:55:05,000 --> 00:45:16,000
come up.

853
00:45:16,000 --> 00:42:09,000
The elephant in one pulls the tail 
on says that's what an elf.

854
00:42:09,000 --> 00:55:51,000
It looks like the other one grabs 
a new year and says that's what

855
00:55:51,000 --> 00:50:54,000
the often looks like climate 
change is kind of like that,

856
00:50:54,000 --> 00:49:58,000
you know you have people who see 
and experiencing so differently

857
00:52:08,000 --> 00:48:12,000
right around them and yet they're 
supposed to all unite somehow

858
00:51:52,000 --> 00:48:35,000
and demand an overall great big solution.

859
00:48:36,000 --> 00:53:36,000
Well,

860
00:53:36,000 --> 00:40:51,000
I mean I think that polls suggest 
that a majority of Americans do

861
00:45:41,000 --> 00:50:03,000
think that the climate crisis.

862
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:27,000
The areas it's happening and they 
want to see action taken on it,

863
00:50:27,000 --> 00:53:49,000
regardless of how it manifests 
in their region.

864
00:53:49,000 --> 00:41:33,000
I think people are increasingly 
alarmed and are increasingly

865
00:44:13,000 --> 00:43:16,000
wanting to see elected 
official take action.

866
00:43:16,000 --> 00:50:39,000
Unfortunately our elected officials 
there you know largely

867
00:55:19,000 --> 00:45:32,000
following the money and most of 
the money is with the club

868
00:47:12,000 --> 00:41:36,000
brothers and the other oil companies 
so they're listening to them

869
00:42:26,000 --> 00:45:40,000
and not to that the American people 
but at least at the moment you

870
00:45:40,000 --> 00:51:53,000
know this is one reason why we need 
better campaign finance laws

871
00:52:53,000 --> 00:48:24,000
in this country.

872
00:48:24,000 --> 00:50:28,000
But I think what we come to the conclusion 
here at the Center for

873
00:50:28,000 --> 00:44:02,000
a sustainable economy is that working 
at the city level working at

874
00:44:22,000 --> 00:55:22,000
the state level,

875
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:05,000
you can get a lot more done than 
you can trying to work in

876
00:56:25,000 --> 00:50:38,000
Washington DC things are very 
broken and Washington,

877
00:50:38,000 --> 00:45:11,000
but you can actually affect 
policy at the state level,

878
00:45:11,000 --> 00:46:34,000
and eventually hopefully 
MPs that into some sort.

879
00:49:04,000 --> 00:47:45,000
National strategy.

880
00:55:25,000 --> 00:57:55,000
Yeah.

881
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:37,000
That's a great point,

882
00:43:37,000 --> 00:48:30,000
are you getting re-energized by 
regional activism on the west

883
00:49:40,000 --> 00:48:34,000
coast versus the politics of living 
and working in Washington DC.

884
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:45,000
Oh yes,

885
00:54:45,000 --> 00:42:17,000
yes.

886
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,000
You know and a hit lots and lots 
of exclamation points after that

887
00:50:51,000 --> 00:48:26,000
statement I I'm so inspired by and 
many of the young people that

888
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:20,000
retirees so level of engagement here 
in the northwest around the

889
00:48:20,000 --> 00:54:24,000
issue of climate change is so 
broad and persons here and so

890
00:57:44,000 --> 00:43:06,000
energized.

891
00:43:06,000 --> 00:54:20,000
It's really inspiring to see a lot 
of people hurt you know just

892
00:58:30,000 --> 00:54:25,000
put their careers completely on 
hold and are doing nothing but

893
00:56:05,000 --> 00:52:27,000
working on this climate crisis,

894
00:52:27,000 --> 00:46:18,000
one of the people.

895
00:46:18,000 --> 00:55:41,000
That's leading local 350 chapter 
here in Portland.

896
00:55:41,000 --> 00:52:05,000
It's the former Andy who 
just decided this was,

897
00:52:05,000 --> 00:57:28,000
this is where she needed to 
spend her time and energy.

898
00:57:28,000 --> 00:55:41,000
I know a lot of people that have 
dealt with either early

899
00:55:41,000 --> 00:53:26,000
retirement or living very frugally 
so that they can devote a

900
00:53:56,000 --> 00:51:10,000
significant amount of time to working 
on the the fighting at the

901
00:51:10,000 --> 00:53:42,000
fossil fuel industry here in Oregon.

902
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:33,000
So it's,

903
00:53:33,000 --> 00:58:57,000
it's both inspiring encourages me 
to work even harder whereas back

904
00:58:57,000 --> 00:51:28,000
in Washington,

905
00:51:28,000 --> 00:45:29,000
DC.

906
00:45:29,000 --> 00:44:23,000
We just feel that no matter how much 
you through your head against

907
00:45:23,000 --> 00:57:25,000
that that wall you just keeps Nash.

908
00:57:25,000 --> 00:58:19,000
You know how to go through expense 
and it wasn't going to budge.

909
00:58:19,000 --> 00:43:42,000
But things do actually 
get done it Thursday.

910
00:47:23,000 --> 00:57:36,000
I wonder if there's a story or experience 
beyond that you think

911
00:58:06,000 --> 00:48:10,000
could help raise our listeners 
to an even greater move into

912
00:49:10,000 --> 00:52:01,000
climate activism.

913
00:54:42,000 --> 00:43:53,000
Well,

914
00:43:53,000 --> 00:51:17,000
I mean I think the climate crisis 
you you know you've covered it

915
00:51:47,000 --> 00:45:18,000
so well,

916
00:45:18,000 --> 00:55:41,000
especially in your recent shows 
with climate psychologists and

917
00:57:41,000 --> 00:49:37,000
others talking about the ways in 
which we turn away from just how

918
00:51:17,000 --> 00:59:38,000
serious it is,

919
00:59:38,000 --> 00:58:50,000
it cannot have that result,

920
00:58:50,000 --> 00:51:55,000
but it can also when you are working 
in coalition with others I

921
00:52:25,000 --> 00:49:39,000
what I found is that the people 
that end up coming out to join

922
00:50:09,000 --> 00:55:52,000
this coalitions are some of the 
best members of our society and

923
00:57:42,000 --> 00:46:26,000
mean you know just smart committed,

924
00:46:26,000 --> 00:58:56,000
funny,

925
00:58:56,000 --> 00:45:38,000
creative,

926
00:45:38,000 --> 00:55:31,000
and these are the kinds of people 
that I would want to have.

927
00:55:31,000 --> 00:45:54,000
By my side fighting any kind of battle.

928
00:45:54,000 --> 00:52:08,000
So I encourage people that are in 
any way feeling defeated by this

929
00:55:08,000 --> 00:56:03,000
crisis turn that sort of intention 
to mourn into an into an

930
00:56:53,000 --> 00:46:18,000
organizing intention and to really 
stick out like-minded folks

931
00:48:08,000 --> 00:45:22,000
because they will energize you and 
keep you going in the darkest

932
00:45:22,000 --> 00:56:06,000
hours and a lot of us are 
feeling the grief around.

933
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,000
I know I felt it for quite some time,

934
00:56:08,000 --> 00:59:59,000
but there is,

935
00:59:59,000 --> 00:55:04,000
there are signs that people are really 
beginning to get it and I

936
00:56:14,000 --> 00:44:59,000
really getting mobilized for example 
and working with the National

937
00:51:49,000 --> 00:57:12,000
Unitarian General Assembly that's 
gathering in Portland and 6,000

938
00:45:23,000 --> 00:51:16,000
members of the Unitarian coming 
from all over the United States

939
00:51:36,000 --> 01:00:59,000
and they'll be focused exclusively 
on those climate change and

940
01:00:59,000 --> 00:57:33,000
also how best to work in solidarity 
with native Americans in

941
00:59:03,000 --> 00:55:25,000
facing down this crisis.

942
00:55:25,000 --> 00:45:57,000
It's very exciting.

943
00:45:57,000 --> 00:55:51,000
It feels like we are going to go 
back to our home communities and

944
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:03,000
really commit to respond.

945
00:56:03,000 --> 00:58:36,000
In fact there is a website commit 
to respond and people were going

946
00:58:36,000 --> 00:52:50,000
to be asked to do something along 
the same lines of what your last

947
00:53:20,000 --> 00:58:34,000
guest asked us to do which is to 
mobilize towards a World War 2

948
00:59:04,000 --> 00:57:18,000
type mobilization to save you know 
I think a lot of us recognize

949
00:57:18,000 --> 00:58:32,000
if that's what's required to swim 
time and we need all of us to be

950
00:59:52,000 --> 00:52:46,000
calling for the same thing both for 
our economy and for our planet

951
00:55:36,000 --> 00:46:19,000
if were gonna stop this monster in time.

952
00:55:09,000 --> 00:58:09,000
Here.

953
00:59:39,000 --> 00:52:24,000
Our guest Washington hosted the environmental 
program for 8 years

954
00:52:24,000 --> 00:51:58,000
on the Pacifica Radio network now 
she's bounced between regional

955
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:52,000
activism on the West Coast continuing 
watch over national and

956
00:55:22,000 --> 00:58:04,000
international climate developments.

957
00:58:04,000 --> 00:47:08,000
She is the director of climate 
and the energy program at the

958
00:47:08,000 --> 00:52:02,000
Center for sustainable economy definitely 
where the best places to

959
00:52:02,000 --> 00:49:54,000
follow your ongoing work.

960
00:59:34,000 --> 00:56:19,000
Sustainable dash economy of our 
website and we are getting on

961
01:01:29,000 --> 00:57:21,000
climate and energy program up and running.

962
00:57:21,000 --> 00:55:45,000
There were very excited about a new 
initiative that you can see an

963
00:55:45,000 --> 01:00:38,000
update on shortly called climate response.

964
01:00:38,000 --> 00:56:12,000
We have a preliminary paper up there 
and we'll be posting a lot of

965
00:56:32,000 --> 00:49:08,000
our activity on Algerian and other 
oil and gas and coal exports in

966
00:49:08,000 --> 00:51:39,000
the Pacific Northwest,

967
00:51:39,000 --> 00:58:11,000
we've hired a new political director.

968
00:58:11,000 --> 00:59:03,000
You can join our activist network there,

969
00:59:03,000 --> 00:49:48,000
and we were poured engaging with anyone 
who wants to preserve what

970
00:49:48,000 --> 00:53:31,000
we call that in green line here 
in the Pacific Northwest them

971
00:55:51,000 --> 00:52:23,000
these massive fossil fuel.

972
00:56:43,000 --> 01:01:03,000
Well,

973
01:01:03,000 --> 00:51:14,000
from going.

974
00:46:55,000 --> 00:52:25,000
Great.

975
00:52:25,000 --> 00:48:19,000
So listeners just Google center 
for sustainable economy or look

976
00:48:19,000 --> 00:53:22,000
for links in my blog at could 
shock.info Daphne.

977
00:53:22,000 --> 00:49:24,000
Thank you so much for joining us again,

978
00:49:24,000 --> 00:53:26,000
please keep in touch as you 
develop more stories.

979
01:01:06,000 --> 01:00:07,000
Thank you.

980
01:00:07,000 --> 01:03:01,000
And one last thing it it really 
as websites seemed odd or will

981
01:03:01,000 --> 00:48:35,000
take you right to absolutely 
and I do I will treat you,

982
00:48:35,000 --> 00:51:15,000
right.

983
00:56:45,000 --> 01:01:56,000
Activist network page.

984
00:49:27,000 --> 00:59:11,000
Beautiful scene.org I'm Alex Smith 
reporting for Radio Eco shark.

985
00:57:54,000 --> 01:02:48,000
This is Radio Eco shot made up your 
iPod or computer with tons of

986
01:03:18,000 --> 00:54:14,000
free green audio from our website 
at W W W.eco shock.org that's

987
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:27,000
easy oil shock like electric shock.org.

988
00:52:42,000 --> 01:03:43,000
In the short time we have left.

989
01:03:43,000 --> 00:51:57,000
I'd like to pass on some quotes 
and notes from a deep and

990
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:01,000
important talk from climate week 
at Harvard University Center for

991
00:52:01,000 --> 00:53:22,000
the environment,

992
00:53:22,000 --> 00:48:03,000
the speakers.

993
00:48:03,000 --> 00:51:37,000
Dr. James Anderson and the title 
is coupled feedback in the

994
00:51:37,000 --> 00:54:12,000
climate structure that set the timescale 
for irreversible change

995
01:01:42,000 --> 00:51:36,000
Arctic isotopes to stratospheric radicals.

996
00:51:36,000 --> 01:02:09,000
That's quite a bit and believe me 
he covers a lot this talk on

997
01:02:09,000 --> 00:54:34,000
April 8th 20-15 was part of a series 
of presentations I found this

998
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:15,000
on video.

999
00:54:15,000 --> 00:49:19,000
Thanks to a tip from a radio equal 
shock listener and I'm so glad

1000
00:49:19,000 --> 00:52:40,000
I did.

1001
00:52:40,000 --> 00:48:42,000
The talk as Anderson tells us,

1002
00:48:42,000 --> 00:57:03,000
is a fairly high level.

1003
00:57:03,000 --> 00:56:36,000
A presentation of ongoing research 
into some important

1004
00:56:36,000 --> 00:51:10,000
developments in the climate Anderson 
covers a wide range of

1005
00:51:10,000 --> 00:48:51,000
science.

1006
00:48:51,000 --> 00:58:23,000
I can only get to a few points here,

1007
00:58:23,000 --> 00:52:44,000
for example,

1008
00:52:44,000 --> 00:54:08,000
research into past ages showed the 
stratosphere that upper level

1009
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:22,000
of Earth's atmosphere above the weather 
was far wetter than today

1010
00:54:22,000 --> 00:59:44,000
, in past greenhouse ages.

1011
00:59:44,000 --> 00:55:58,000
The wording of the stratosphere should 
be happening now but until

1012
00:58:18,000 --> 00:54:21,000
very recently nobody knew 
how that could happen.

1013
00:54:21,000 --> 00:58:45,000
Now we do Anderson also points out 
a key difference between past

1014
01:00:35,000 --> 00:58:48,000
hothouse world and today this time around.

1015
00:58:48,000 --> 01:03:32,000
Humans have also injected chlorinated 
substances like ozone

1016
00:49:53,000 --> 00:51:27,000
destroying CFCs there were never 
there in the past ages and how

1017
00:51:27,000 --> 00:56:31,000
does that affect climate change as 
we'll hear from those opening

1018
00:56:31,000 --> 00:51:55,000
quote scientists are gaining new 
knowledge on changes we've made

1019
00:57:15,000 --> 01:02:06,000
that cannot be reversed,

1020
01:02:06,000 --> 01:04:10,000
at least not in any timescale that 
matters to humans here is Dr.

1021
01:04:10,000 --> 00:56:02,000
Anderson speaking at Harvard.

1022
00:52:03,000 --> 00:56:38,000
This is really research talk about 
2 aspects of the climate

1023
00:56:38,000 --> 01:03:29,000
structure,

1024
01:03:29,000 --> 01:04:04,000
both of which are coupled through 
irreversible connective cycles

1025
00:52:55,000 --> 00:51:00,000
and so I'm gonna talk about experiments 
done 5 meters above the

1026
00:51:00,000 --> 01:02:14,000
surface and then experiments done 
20 kilometers above the surface

1027
01:03:14,000 --> 00:54:47,000
and you'll see why those are linked,

1028
00:54:47,000 --> 00:58:31,000
but just in case I basketball 
over these things I want to

1029
01:00:41,000 --> 01:04:33,000
emphasize some points.

1030
01:04:33,000 --> 00:57:07,000
The first one is that this global 
climate structure is changing

1031
00:57:07,000 --> 00:54:22,000
far more rapidly than than we believe 
was possible even even 5

1032
00:54:22,000 --> 01:01:46,000
years ago and I'm gonna show some 
dominant examples of that the

1033
01:01:46,000 --> 01:03:30,000
next issue is the feedback in the 
climate structure because it

1034
01:03:30,000 --> 01:01:35,000
seeks feedback sits set the timescale 
for a reverse ability and

1035
01:03:55,000 --> 01:06:18,000
I'm gonna take a very brief tour 
through the climate system to

1036
01:06:18,000 --> 00:50:42,000
demonstrate how that functions now:

1037
00:50:42,000 --> 01:01:15,000
a look at the way in which developing 
technology provides direct

1038
01:02:15,000 --> 00:59:49,000
measurements for example of methane 
and carbon di-oxide ITA topic

1039
00:52:10,000 --> 01:05:10,000
Fox measurement.

1040
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:25,000
Next we'll hear about how the fragile 
Arctic determined so much of

1041
01:05:25,000 --> 00:59:26,000
our weather.

1042
00:58:07,000 --> 01:00:22,000
Then I'm going to look at why these 
Cryer systems which are so

1043
01:02:22,000 --> 01:05:07,000
delicate because heat of fusion 
for waters so small that the

1044
01:05:07,000 --> 00:55:04,000
delicacy of of these Cryer systems 
in a cruel irony link into the

1045
00:55:04,000 --> 01:03:29,000
larger global climate structure 
and they exhibit inordinate

1046
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:23,000
control over these global climate 
systems I'm I'm gonna touch very

1047
01:03:23,000 --> 00:52:58,000
briefly on this pale your record 
and as Brian talked about on on

1048
00:52:58,000 --> 00:55:04,000
Tuesday that the climate structure 
depends in in large measure on

1049
00:55:04,000 --> 01:01:18,000
the temperature gradient between 
the tropics in the polar regions

1050
01:01:18,000 --> 00:57:41,000
and during the EEOC,

1051
00:57:41,000 --> 00:54:24,000
there was a very little temperature 
difference between the tropics

1052
00:54:24,000 --> 00:58:59,000
and and and the polar regions and 
in that particular structure of

1053
00:58:59,000 --> 01:01:41,000
the stratosphere had to be wet.

1054
01:01:41,000 --> 00:58:32,000
There's very little

1055
01:07:23,000 --> 00:57:34,000
and fact.

1056
00:57:34,000 --> 01:05:14,000
I don't know,

1057
01:05:14,000 --> 00:53:55,000
Brian,

1058
00:53:55,000 --> 01:05:07,000
I don't think there's any possibility 
of having that claim a

1059
01:05:07,000 --> 01:03:10,000
structure without a Maurice stratosphere.

1060
01:03:10,000 --> 00:56:24,000
And as we'll see moisture entering 
the stratosphere today has a

1061
00:56:24,000 --> 00:55:27,000
very different connotation because 
it triggers catalytic cycles

1062
00:55:27,000 --> 00:51:40,000
involving chlorine in Bromley in 
that were not present during the

1063
00:52:00,000 --> 00:57:05,000
EEOC so also talk about you active 
of injection north of the

1064
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:06,000
subtropical jet,

1065
00:59:06,000 --> 00:55:21,000
which as we saw from from Bryant brands 
talk is of a potential way

1066
00:55:21,000 --> 00:53:05,000
of transitioning from the current 
structure of the climate to one

1067
00:53:05,000 --> 00:59:19,000
in which there is a far smaller difference 
between in temperature

1068
01:00:19,000 --> 01:02:21,000
between the equator in the polar regions,

1069
01:02:21,000 --> 00:54:55,000
so is convicted injection of water,

1070
00:54:55,000 --> 00:59:20,000
it turned out to be unique over 
the US and it's coupled also to

1071
01:06:20,000 --> 01:05:34,000
any cyclonic flow over the US that 
that's created by the North

1072
01:05:34,000 --> 00:52:56,000
American monsoon.

1073
00:52:56,000 --> 00:59:50,000
And so we have this convicted injection 
into this anti cyclonic

1074
00:59:50,000 --> 01:05:31,000
motion,

1075
01:05:31,000 --> 00:55:27,000
which is a hoot demonic combination 
created by the dynamics.

1076
00:55:27,000 --> 01:07:51,000
But it has very strong good coupling 
into the catalytic chemical

1077
00:56:02,000 --> 01:00:23,000
structure of the stratosphere.

1078
00:56:44,000 --> 01:01:17,000
Note how Anderson stressed the point 
made again and again by our

1079
01:02:07,000 --> 00:55:41,000
guest scientist Paul Beckwith when 
explaining the new disruption

1080
00:55:41,000 --> 01:01:04,000
of weather in the northern hemisphere 
and that's the temperature

1081
01:02:34,000 --> 00:59:18,000
difference between the tropics in 
the polls as polar regions warm

1082
00:59:18,000 --> 01:01:41,000
up the difference is declining and 
the result is a slower and wave

1083
01:02:31,000 --> 00:59:15,000
your jet stream and some really strange 
weather for all of us in

1084
00:59:35,000 --> 00:55:58,000
the northern world as a side note,

1085
00:55:58,000 --> 00:59:01,000
Anderson explains why both the 
left and the right may support

1086
01:02:11,000 --> 01:07:45,000
further research into controversial 
geo engineering first he

1087
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:18,000
refers to the National Research 
Council report on climate

1088
01:07:18,000 --> 00:59:02,000
engineering particularly solar 
radiation management.

1089
01:02:12,000 --> 01:05:16,000
The National Research Council 
just released a new report on

1090
01:05:16,000 --> 00:59:50,000
climate engineering particularly 
solar radiation management that

1091
00:57:21,000 --> 01:09:35,000
is being pushed actually in a bipartisan 
way because the right

1092
00:53:56,000 --> 00:59:31,000
would like to have solar radiation 
management so more fossil fuels

1093
01:00:01,000 --> 00:59:16,000
can be burned and the left believes 
that intruding in natural

1094
00:59:16,000 --> 00:54:41,000
systems like this is a very dangerous 
so research on the topic is

1095
00:55:11,000 --> 00:58:34,000
gaining bilateral support,

1096
00:58:34,000 --> 00:54:26,000
which is highly unusual these days.

1097
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,000
Next we hear why James Anderson,

1098
01:06:58,000 --> 01:02:23,000
thinks global warming is so horribly 
wrong as a term to describe

1099
01:02:43,000 --> 01:09:34,000
the current climate shift.

1100
01:02:55,000 --> 01:07:35,000
All right,

1101
01:07:35,000 --> 01:03:40,000
so let me start with with a bias 
this this term global warming

1102
01:05:20,000 --> 00:54:33,000
applied to this problem.

1103
00:54:33,000 --> 00:57:17,000
It makes me shudder because 70% 
of the globe is covered by the

1104
00:57:17,000 --> 01:03:47,000
ocean,

1105
01:03:47,000 --> 01:06:59,000
with an average depth of 3500 meters,

1106
01:06:59,000 --> 01:01:42,000
and it has massive heat capacity,

1107
01:01:42,000 --> 01:00:46,000
so my mind most degenerate variable 
you can discusses mean global

1108
01:05:26,000 --> 01:03:10,000
temperature and it also carries a 
connotation of something that's

1109
01:03:10,000 --> 01:07:24,000
happening slow leak you know one 
degree centigrade per century

1110
00:56:05,000 --> 01:03:19,000
doesn't carry a huge amount of political 
imperative behind it.

1111
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:12,000
It also carries the connotation 
that you can watch think slowly

1112
01:03:12,000 --> 01:06:23,000
change and if you don't like,

1113
01:06:23,000 --> 01:04:58,000
if you can just slow down the release 
of carbon dioxide and return

1114
01:04:58,000 --> 00:59:02,000
to the condition and nothing could 
be further from the truth is,

1115
00:59:02,000 --> 01:07:52,000
as we'll see.

1116
01:07:52,000 --> 01:02:17,000
So I always avoid the term and 
I cringe every time I hear it.

1117
00:56:58,000 --> 01:11:00,000
We'll never have time to get to all 
the great science in the stock

1118
01:11:00,000 --> 01:04:52,000
. But I do want you to hear this.

1119
00:59:13,000 --> 01:03:06,000
The next point involves these methane 
clatter it's either of these

1120
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:02,000
beautiful structures ice cages within 
which nature inserts methane

1121
01:03:02,000 --> 01:00:18,000
produced anaerobic by decomposition 
of organic material and in its

1122
01:00:18,000 --> 01:02:12,000
and it's chirpy that's driving this 
entirely because it nature of

1123
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,000
course abhors a vacuum and with stuff 
molecules and every possible

1124
01:03:46,000 --> 01:11:12,000
nook and cranny in order to 
engage the inclusion of

1125
01:06:33,000 --> 01:05:57,000
energy states and it turns out that 
methane 5th beautifully into

1126
01:06:37,000 --> 01:04:43,000
these water cages and this is ubiquitous 
Klatten nothing rates

1127
01:04:43,000 --> 00:56:28,000
contain about 3 times the chemical 
energy of all known fossil fuel

1128
01:00:48,000 --> 00:59:30,000
reserves include coal,

1129
00:59:30,000 --> 01:09:54,000
petroleum natural gas and they 
reside not only in the surface

1130
01:11:34,000 --> 00:57:07,000
soils of Siberia northern Alaska but also

1131
01:05:58,000 --> 00:59:02,000
they're ubiquitous across the ocean 
basins this was pulled up off

1132
00:59:42,000 --> 01:11:46,000
the west coast of about 100m than 
it is touch of magic to it and

1133
01:11:46,000 --> 01:08:51,000
it it ignites but the numbers as Steve,

1134
01:08:51,000 --> 01:02:53,000
what's the point pointed out,

1135
01:02:53,000 --> 01:00:45,000
are actually quite concerning.

1136
01:00:45,000 --> 01:06:00,000
So here we plot the CO2 emissions 
from fossil-fuel burning in gig

1137
01:07:00,000 --> 01:08:55,000
tons of carbon per year yet to convert 
back from CO2 but canonical

1138
01:11:55,000 --> 01:01:30,000
representation is and in carbon 
per vehicle because of that's

1139
01:02:40,000 --> 01:01:26,000
typically how calibrated so 1990 have 
about 6 again get tons of of

1140
01:03:46,000 --> 00:57:40,000
carbon was added to the atmosphere 
by fossil-fuel burning,

1141
00:57:40,000 --> 01:09:14,000
and that was basically a textbook 
number for for many many years,

1142
01:09:14,000 --> 00:57:46,000
but in 2000,

1143
00:57:46,000 --> 00:56:43,000
it started to take off and when 
the 2007 IPCC report came out.

1144
00:56:43,000 --> 01:08:54,000
These were the release than area.

1145
01:08:54,000 --> 01:00:38,000
This was the worst possible 
cases up a red wine,

1146
01:00:38,000 --> 01:08:18,000
and of course,

1147
01:08:18,000 --> 00:59:12,000
we've exceeded that of every year.

1148
00:59:12,000 --> 01:07:26,000
The subsequent to to 2007 but the 
key point is that just half a

1149
01:07:36,000 --> 01:02:00,000
percent of the labor while carbon 
in the Earth's surface soils,

1150
01:02:00,000 --> 01:05:55,000
of the North Slope of of Alaska 
and Siberia just half a percent

1151
01:07:05,000 --> 01:04:19,000
release rate per year gives 
us around 89 tons per year,

1152
01:04:19,000 --> 01:11:22,000
which doubles the carbon added 
to the atmosphere by all

1153
01:01:03,000 --> 01:06:25,000
fossil-fuel burning worldwide.

1154
01:06:25,000 --> 01:04:30,000
And so this constitutes for the 
next exhibit for feedback.

1155
01:08:50,000 --> 01:09:23,000
Anderson gives the example of a 
class 3 pulled up off the west

1156
01:10:23,000 --> 01:04:06,000
coast from a depth of about 100 meters,

1157
01:04:06,000 --> 01:00:29,000
that could be ignited with old match.

1158
01:00:29,000 --> 01:05:09,000
Well,

1159
01:05:09,000 --> 01:11:12,000
we didn't get to the strange way 
chlorinated substances playback

1160
01:11:12,000 --> 01:06:26,000
on other climate feedback in the 
atmosphere plus and this is a

1161
01:06:26,000 --> 01:07:57,000
spoiler alert.

1162
01:07:57,000 --> 00:59:21,000
Scientists have discovered a way 
the stratosphere can become

1163
00:59:21,000 --> 01:08:25,000
wetter as it did in past greenhouse 
worlds many many hours flying

1164
01:08:25,000 --> 01:13:38,000
around the world found the stratosphere 
has the same low amount of

1165
01:13:38,000 --> 01:05:00,000
water vapor.

1166
01:05:00,000 --> 01:02:32,000
But in a kink in the system.

1167
01:02:32,000 --> 01:12:45,000
A collision of weather factors over 
the continental United States

1168
01:01:46,000 --> 01:05:00,000
creates an almost unique kind of heat 
funnel that does inject more

1169
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:32,000
water into the stratosphere.

1170
01:05:32,000 --> 01:04:46,000
There are several other sites like 
that Anderson says they have

1171
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:10,000
the mechanism that will wet down 
the stratosphere over time,

1172
01:04:10,000 --> 01:11:23,000
as I say there's a huge range of 
cutting science in the stock by

1173
01:11:23,000 --> 01:13:54,000
James Anderson.

1174
01:13:54,000 --> 01:04:48,000
Some of it is a little difficult 
for the lay person to understand

1175
01:04:48,000 --> 01:09:00,000
, but most of it is very clear.

1176
01:09:00,000 --> 01:10:13,000
We learn of feedback switch make 
this developing climate shift

1177
01:01:14,000 --> 00:59:18,000
into a major geological event 
that cannot be reversed.

1178
00:59:18,000 --> 01:11:31,000
We have already gone over the climate 
cliff he tells us how far we

1179
01:13:51,000 --> 01:08:15,000
fall depends on whether we can rein 
in our fossil-fuel burning

1180
01:10:05,000 --> 01:14:39,000
emissions before they trigger much 
much larger carbon or methane

1181
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:14,000
inputs from the previously frozen 
land and sea bed in the Arctic

1182
01:08:35,000 --> 01:14:18,000
find an easy link to this video presentation 
at Harvard University

1183
00:59:39,000 --> 01:09:53,000
April 8 2015 in my shell 
blog eco shock.info.

1184
01:09:53,000 --> 01:02:46,000
I'll also add my lengthy 
notes to the blog,

1185
01:02:46,000 --> 01:12:50,000
which includes a few links and explanations 
we've blown through

1186
01:12:50,000 --> 01:03:25,000
the time barrier again get all past 
programs as free MP3s from our

1187
01:03:25,000 --> 01:11:59,000
website at shock.org listen any 
time on the radio shock page on

1188
01:13:19,000 --> 01:15:31,000
sound cloud I'm Alex,