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Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.33,0:00:03.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well today has been dubbed "American Censorship Day".
Dialogue: 0,0:00:03.40,0:00:07.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An incredible amount of opposition is mounted towards legislation working its way
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.08,0:00:10.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through both the House and the Senate to combat copyright infringement on the web.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.91,0:00:14.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now we've spoken about the PROTECT-IP Act many times on this show,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.12,0:00:18.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but today, the House Judiciary Committee held a hearing on their version of the bill,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:18.25,0:00:24.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,known as SOPA, the "Stop Online Piracy Act". The PROTECT-IP Act would allow the attorney general
Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.11,0:00:28.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to create a blacklist of websites that they see as engaging in "infringing activities"
Dialogue: 0,0:00:28.44,0:00:33.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be blocked by ISP providers, search engines, payment providers and advertising networks,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:33.40,0:00:37.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all without a court hearing or a trial. But SOPA goes even further.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.30,0:00:40.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And numerous groups have come out against both pieces of legislation,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.21,0:00:44.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from civil liberties and free speech groups like the ACLU, the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.70,0:00:49.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,various think tanks, a bipartisan group of lawmakers including Ron Paul,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:49.06,0:00:53.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more than 100 legal scholars, and even tech giants.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.22,0:00:56.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Take a look at this full-page ad taken out in the New York Times today.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.77,0:01:03.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was taken out by AOL, eBay, Facebook, Google, LinkedIn, Mozilla, Twitter, Yahoo and Zynga.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.09,0:01:07.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So much opposition, might Congress actually listen?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.48,0:01:11.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here to discuss it with me is Alexander Howard, the Government 2.0 Washington correspondent
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.73,0:01:14.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for O'Reilly Media. Alexander, thanks so much for being here tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.70,0:01:16.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Nice to be here.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.15,0:01:20.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-OK like I said, our viewers are very familiar with the PROTECT-IP Act (PIPA),
Dialogue: 0,0:01:20.95,0:01:24.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but let's talk about what the differences are between PIPA and SOPA,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.15,0:01:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why this is one considered to be so much worse.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:26.22,0:01:30.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Well I think one of the ways that people tend to look specifically at is this Private Right of Action
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.66,0:01:34.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you referred to that a little bit, which is to say that someone who has the ownership
Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.75,0:01:39.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to a given piece of content and feels it is infringing could then go right to the Department of Justice
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.63,0:01:44.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and do that in a way that is not necessarily public and then make a complaint against it.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.35,0:01:48.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then it would give the Department of Justice certain powers to then take that site offline.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.73,0:01:52.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you talked about a number of them: the idea that you could take it out of search results,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:52.63,0:01:58.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the way you could constrain it financially, and then, potentially most controversial, which is
Dialogue: 0,0:01:58.71,0:02:03.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using the Domain Name System to make it so that when people search for the domain of the site,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.18,0:02:04.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they simply couldn't find it.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.68,0:02:10.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-OK, but how about the fact too, that some of these companies, now, if something is posted online
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.15,0:02:14.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that might be infringing on copyright, as soon as they're notified, they just take it down.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.00,0:02:17.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, won't they be held responsible now that they're gonna have to start blocking it,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:17.30,0:02:22.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,censoring it from the very beginning, they'll face legal repercussions if it ever gets up there?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.76,0:02:28.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Right, I mean the existing infrastructure for this is the DMCA, you do a DMCA takedown.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:28.42,0:02:32.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you are a company, you see something of yours up on YouTube for instance, and say you have
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.27,0:02:37.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ownership to that, the individual piece of content gets taken down. And that's seen
Dialogue: 0,0:02:37.01,0:02:40.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some amount of abuse, but it's been a workable system that basically says:
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.49,0:02:44.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you see infringing content on a given site, a given piece, you take that off.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.71,0:02:51.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What this bill has been introduced around is this idea of rogue websites that are outside of the US.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:51.07,0:02:56.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Congress, with the urging of a lot of people who have sponsored the bill
Dialogue: 0,0:02:56.01,0:03:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the people you saw testify today, are interested in finding ways to prevent these rogue websites
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.92,0:03:07.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,beyond US jurisdiction from being able to host, or link to, pirated content.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:07.79,0:03:11.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are only so many means you can do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.36,0:03:15.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The one that I think there's broad consensus around is following the money.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:15.90,0:03:19.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know changing the way that you could fund these sites though advertising
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.63,0:03:23.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or through payment mechanisms, the same thing in fact that has been used to strangle WikiLeaks.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:23.29,0:03:26.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But one that's quite controversial in the Internet community is this idea of using
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.51,0:03:28.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Domain Name System (DNS) to do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:28.28,0:03:32.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Alright, let's in fact talk about the hearing today and who was there. I already mentioned
Dialogue: 0,0:03:32.18,0:03:38.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the long list of the tech giants, organizations out there, members of Congress
Dialogue: 0,0:03:38.12,0:03:40.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are all opposed to the legislation. But the people who are backing it, you have
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.87,0:03:43.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Chamber of Commerce, you have the Motion Picture Association,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.68,0:03:49.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have a lot of the entertainment industry. How come they, or how come the opposition
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.44,0:03:53.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wasn't allowed to speak or voice their concerns today at this hearing?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.48,0:03:58.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-You would have to ask Representative Smith and the heads of the Judicial Council.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:58.86,0:04:00.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-But did they give no explanation?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.82,0:04:07.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-To my understanding, the Consumer Electronics Association, which is the biggest of its kind,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.88,0:04:13.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asked to testify and did not have the opportunity. If you took a picture of that table of people
Dialogue: 0,0:04:13.86,0:04:18.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was there, the only one, from the companies you referenced, the biggest Internet companies
Dialogue: 0,0:04:18.39,0:04:23.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the world, was Google. And that representative had a pretty tough time today,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.43,0:04:26.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of tough questions from the Congressmen.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.82,0:04:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You didn't see constituencies from the venture capital community, you didn't see
Dialogue: 0,0:04:30.32,0:04:35.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,constituencies from public advocates, from civil right organizations, human rights organizations.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.81,0:04:41.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, notably, you didn't see anyone from the engineering side. There was actually a specific point,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.22,0:04:47.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where one of the Congressmen raised this issue of whether this bill would be a problem for cyber security.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:47.09,0:04:50.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as you know this is a huge issue in Washington, cyber crime has been growing,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:50.52,0:04:56.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a really important issue, [...] on the national stage a strategic bid.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.40,0:05:03.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So when someone brought up this idea that a past council of DHS, Lamar, I'm sorry...
Dialogue: 0,0:05:03.55,0:05:09.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lamar Smith was reminded about this, his name was Mr. Baker, that this Domain Name System,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.31,0:05:13.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,security was an issue, something that engineers had been working on for a long time.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.60,0:05:16.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-You'd think that this was something that members of Congress would care about as well...
Dialogue: 0,0:05:16.72,0:05:20.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-They do. And when it was raised, it came up "We should know about that", they asked
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.49,0:05:24.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the witnesses about it. And this is called DNSSEC and it is basically trying to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:24.90,0:05:30.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,build in more security to the Domain Name System. Because without it, there are some ways that
Dialogue: 0,0:05:30.12,0:05:35.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your traffic can be spoofed, which can be a significant issue if you're in parts of the world
Dialogue: 0,0:05:35.50,0:05:39.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where if your traffic is intercepted, it could be dangerous to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:39.36,0:05:45.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And essentially, something unusual happened: A group of Internet engineers wrote a letter
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.04,0:05:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to Congress saying, "If you do this, it's gonna break what we've been building."
Dialogue: 0,0:05:49.20,0:05:52.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now I don't know if you've hung out with many engineers, they don't usually like to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:52.76,0:05:57.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,insert themselves in politics. But they have. So did a number of venture capitalists,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.28,0:06:02.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,including Fred Wilson, including Brad Burnham and Feld, you know these don't get involved usually.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.63,0:06:07.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-So all about it, it seems rather crazy that the Congress wouldn't at least allow them
Dialogue: 0,0:06:07.00,0:06:12.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to come in and have their piece when they are going through this type of hearing process.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:12.66,0:06:15.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so what do you think the chances are that some of this might actually go through,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.88,0:06:18.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either the Senate version or the House version?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.70,0:06:25.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Well it depends who you talk to. If you talk to Darrell Issa, who is the Chairman on
Dialogue: 0,0:06:25.02,0:06:28.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Government Oversight, he told The Hill today that he doesn't think it's gonna get very far.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:28.99,0:06:34.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He thinks that the regulatory burden here is gonna actually be a significant oppositon.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:34.14,0:06:38.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The security is one important thing. People actually bark (?) at that, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.38,0:06:41.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-But do you think, really quickly because we're running out of time, but do you think that
Dialogue: 0,0:06:41.38,0:06:44.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this also equates us in terms of censorship, we've heard a lot of people say:
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.62,0:06:47.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, we point fingers at China all the time and here our government would be setting
Dialogue: 0,0:06:47.84,0:06:51.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a very dangerous precedent, you know for what it looks like around the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.02,0:06:54.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-People perked up when the MPAA talked about that a little bit.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.18,0:06:58.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is a very important op-ed written by Rebecca MacKinnon in the New York TImes today
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.39,0:07:02.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and she entitled it "The Great Firewall of America", referring to China's censorship mechanism.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.66,0:07:08.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this particular principle, this idea that a site should be held liable or not
Dialogue: 0,0:07:08.12,0:07:12.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for infringing content that's put on to it - The way we've made the Internet over the past
Dialogue: 0,0:07:12.27,0:07:15.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,20 years has protected sites from doing it, it's really what has enabled the Internet
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.60,0:07:20.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to grow as much as it has. And the principle is Intermediary Liability.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:20.76,0:07:25.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That if a site is online, it shouldn't be held liable for user-generated content if someone
Dialogue: 0,0:07:25.48,0:07:28.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,puts something on there. You know it's gonna happen, so what's the mechanism you choose
Dialogue: 0,0:07:28.70,0:07:33.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to deal with it? If you make it so that the whole site goes down, you know blocked from
Dialogue: 0,0:07:33.25,0:07:38.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,search results, money gets taken away, DNS goes away, then what is that gonna mean for it
Dialogue: 0,0:07:38.22,0:07:42.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what is is gonna mean for the risk tolerance of venture capitalists who want to fund
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.76,0:07:44.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the start-ups of tomorrow?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.10,0:07:47.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Yeah, a lot of people asking that question. What is it gonna mean for entrepreneurs, for start-ups,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:47.59,0:07:50.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for innovation? Well, a lot of people were calling it "the end of the Internet"
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.69,0:07:57.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or "the breaking of the Internet". Hopefully they will, you know, come to some common sense
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.27,0:07:59.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on this. Alexander, thanks so much for joining us tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:59.41,0:08:01.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Thank you for inviting me.