[Hassan Ilyas] In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate.
Assalamu alaikum I am Mohammad Hassan Ilyas and right now
we are in Dallas at the Ghamdi Centre of Islamic Learning.
ISNA which is the oldest organization of Muslims in America.
ISNA is having its annual convocation but physical participation
was hampered due to Covid-19.
The organizers requested that we should record
some conversations with Ghamidi Sahab.
for the participants of this convocation and
that these conversations are related to the socio-religious challenges
facing Muslims within the United States.
Today we are here for this purpose, and we are having with us
Mr. Javed Ahmad Ghamdi Sahab Asalamu alaikum.
[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Walikum Asalam
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, thank you very much for your time.
At this time you are being heard by people associated with ISNA all over the world
and especially the Muslim community in America.
I would like to ask you first, that 57 years ago today,
the foundation of this organization was laid
as "The Islamic Society of North America”,
which is a group of Muslims who settled in Western countries
and then became part of the community and through the systematic efforts
of their organization, they tried to advance their mission and vision
by way of helping the people to develop social capital and education.
How do you see this whole idea and please help us with
your personal opinion about ISNA?
[Ghamidi] This is an extraordinary achievement, and
it should be greatly appreciated.
Wherever we go, the needs of human society come to the fore.
When we move to a foreign place or a foreign society
or a place where our culture, tradition, civilization is not being followed,
we will face difficulties there.
These problems can be social, cultural and sometimes psychological.
The best way out of all these problems for a Muslim or any other nation,
is to organize its own community.
People who are associated with it, who belong to the same tradition,
who come from the same background, not only do they understand their issues,
but also have a special background which aids them in resolving them.
With all these things in mind, creating such organizations and
creating a bond between them, even if it is more than one, it does not matter.
However, the ideal situation is that wherever Muslims go,
only one organization should come into existence because such organizations
have no ideological aspect.
The reason for establishing these organizations is to check,
if Muslims have any specific needs as a community.
Such organizations are formed keeping in view the aforementioned objectives.
So in my opinion it is difficult to create unity in the organizations that are
formed on the basis of ideology or in which there are ideological discussions
and perhaps there is no need for it as well.
[Ilyas] okay
[Ghamidi] Their goal is that they address your mind and in this respect,
for example, there are different groups, sects among Muslims,
there is a difference in thinking, which leads to formation of an organisation,
as well as institutions.
but as a community, Muslim too face some challenges.
For instance to help Muslims in managing their mosques, guiding them in matters
of fasting and prayers, and meeting their needs in regard to Hajj and ‘Umrah,
or in the case of funeral arrangements,
if all these needs are put in front of them and their general education
is made the goal, that is, something on which there is no disagreement.
As we usually say, elementary education is broad-based.
If an organization is formed, I think it is of paramount importance.
You may be aware, we in India once had reputed scholars
who put forward the view that now that Muslims' political system has collapsed
so, there should be a collective system for Muslims of the subcontinent.
This dream could not be achieved,
but when the Muslims have come out of one place and they have started residing
in different countries, I think that such organizations
must exist and in my opinion they should try to transcend themselves
from differences of opinion as regards ideologies,
whether there are intellectual differences, juristic differences or
differences of any kind.
The topics that should be discussed here are those that the whole community needs,
what the Muslim society as a whole needs.
What their cultural traditions need, what they need regarding agreed-upon festivals.
Keeping all these things in view that are agreed upon,
establishing such a system is a necessity to me as air and water are needed.
[Ilyas] So we will continue this topic.
I will state that most of your listeners are Muslims
in the United States at this time.
I will also ask you a few questions which we have received from them
so that you can put forward your point of view about those who immigrated
to the United States in large number during 1960 -1970’s.
They brought their religious and cultural tradition here, but for the new generation
we see that their is a crisis about religious tendencies, cultural aspects,
social backgrounds, clothing, everything.
Please, tell me that how parents should persuade their children in these issues,
so that they should stick to the same ideas and principles.
I'll offer an example: we know in western countries the dress code is different
and our Muslim cultural backgrounds have different dress codes.
So how will the Muslim parents who have settled here, convince their children
wear simple and decent clothes as was the traditions back home?
[Ghamidi] The first thing is that wherever the parents come from,
they have brought their tradition with them, their way of life,
their way of conversing and how they live.
The child observes this same manner.
In the first stage, I always say that how the parents want their children to become
they should become an example of the same in their home and their society,
because children will see their parents and when they will see them,
after that the first thing they do when they see them,
and what they may not feel the need to do in their home countries,
is to create awareness of their own cultural traditions.
One thing is for sure, whether you were born in Morocco, or
in the subcontinent or somewhere in the Arab world, and
you have lived in the traditions that were there and we automatically tend
to adopt these traditions and there is not much hesitation about accepting
the things that are going on in a society or its surrounding.
But every time you go to another society,
whatever you choose or insist on, requires a reasoning and an argument behind it,
so everyone should know when he is going to another country,
that if he has a religious tradition, what is the reason behind it?
If he’s following certain cultural mores, what is the history behind it?
The way one dresses, engages with people, and interacts with others it should be
known as to what are the foundations of that?
The first thing is that the parents themselves should create
awareness about it.
In other words, they should educate themselves.
They should arrange for their education in these matters.
In our case, I have submitted to you that these things are usually adopted
by observing the society, hearing from the parents, which is not
a conscious decision, so it should be turned into a conscious activity.
Once upon a time, some of our scholars used the term that a Muslim needs to be
not just Muslim but a conscious Muslim, that is, if he renews his faith,
then the renewal of faith has not been said here in
any jurisprudential sense.
Rather, it is being said in the sense that you have to know yourself,
you have to develop self-knowledge and self-identity.
If you are a Muslim, why you are a Muslim?
If you have a cultural background, then what is the state of it?
What arguments do you have for accepting those cultural conditions?
You should have knowledge pertaining to these things.
Obviously, not all people have the same aptitude for knowledge,
so they should try to understand as much as they can.
They should try to educate their children about the same and
they should rationally present these things to their children.
To suggest that they'll convince them through force, won't be possible today
Perhaps those times have passed.
These things are no longer possible in our own countries or even globally.
We have entered a world in which each and every culture
is becoming part of a global civilization in spite of their differing identities.
And when such a situation arises, then you have to explain
why you have adopted all those things that you have.
In this scenario, you can no longer rely on parental authority.
Then you should try to find out what background you are from.
You may be from a Persian background or you may be from an Arab background,
you may be from the subcontinent.
Wherever you are from, your Islamic language, you might wonder how a language
can be divided into Islamic and non-Islamic?
Of course it is...
How is it so?
Just as we urge people in our own countries to learn the English language.
What is the reason behind that?
The reason is that it has become the language of modern sciences.
There are other languages of modern knowledge too but we are referring
to that language through which many new sciences are now reaching us
and if we want access those sciences, then we too must master that language.
In the same way, our religion came to Arabia, that is,
I mean the form of Islam that we have received through
Muhammad, the Messenger of God (pbuh)
It is the religion of all the Prophets, and it has always been Islam.
But when it was renewed by the Prophet (pbuh) and then it was
given to the world and the Quran was revealed in Arabic,
the Prophet (pbuh) himself addressed us in this language.
Hence, all our sciences began in this language. Then came the second period
of Persian language and then after that Urdu language got this status.
It is also a case with some other languages that they have their
own religious background but if you look carefully whatever knowledge
has come about with respect to religion those great people have
written in these languages only and it has come into existence through them.
So, at least, one of these languages must necessarily be taught to children.
It is also important because you want to explain your religion, because
you also want to transmit your culture,
and you want to keep them connected to your traditions.
It is also important because a person’s memory is shaped by his past
and you don’t want to see them alienated from the past.
These things have their respective background and
they embody themselves in the fabric of language.
In other words, language is not just a means of communication.
It is a big mistake of people to think that there are such-and-such facts
and If you translate them into such-and such language, the issue will be resolved
It doesn't end there. It means that when an advanced level of knowledge is created,
it is expressed via the pens and mouths of highly intellectual people.
And unless and until people are in a position to benefit from them directly,
after reaching a certain level of knowledge,
an individual is not influenced by their thought.
Parents will play a role in teaching their children,
will learn from their surroundings.
People will learn from their teachers. Then once those big questions arise,
then it is important that they are aware of the intellectual heritage of Muslims.
and get to know its great people so that they can benefit from the intelligentsia.
It is the intelligentsia that keeps you connected to its culture,
religious traditions and to its ideology, if it has one.
I always give my own example that when
I was trained by my parents, I understood some things and observed other things.
Right from the beginning I got acquainted with Abul Kalam Azad,
Iqbal, Syed Abul A’al Sahab Maududi and Shibli Nomani.
These were the elders with whom I got acquainted,
whose writings came to light and I had access to their writings.
As a result, there was no need for me to fall back on may parents for my doubts.
We must also realize this need and provide educational opportunities
to our children accordingly.
[Ilyas] Totally, I would like to conclude with last two questions.
The children nowadays studying in High schools, Universities and Colleges;
they have a common question to which parents have no answer which
is that if they are choosing a partner for marriage,
they argue that there are non-Muslims just as there are Muslims,
in that they have good morals, they are also doing good deeds,
they are also doing charity work, so what is the reason that a Muslim boy
or girl at the time of getting married, should choose a muslim partner
as religion has made it obligatory for them to choose only from the Muslims.
Is their any rational explanation to it which the parents can present?
[Ghamidi] You said that they have good morals and good education.
Why do they need these things?
Because these are some values on which you are not ready to compromise.
Which means that a functional home would be possible only with good values.
It means that morality is an issue for you.
You value it. You want to look for it.
You call it a necessity of life.
Same is the case with religion. If religion is your concern,
if you think that the decision is to be based on religion and this decision
is to be made on the Day of Judgment and my children have to adhere
to a religion and my society has to be molded by a religion
then that means that religion is an issue for you.
If religion matters to you, then it should matter to you
in marriage as well. It is a very simple rational point.
And should be looked at like that.
There are those things that I consider important,
those that I consider to be a cause for concern,
are the sort of things that I analyse.
I will analyse the values of the other person whom I have to marry
I have to marry. I want to build a home.
It’s a lifelong decision.
I will have children.
They have to learn.
So the real issue is that religion is no longer relevant for children.
Religion is no longer a part of their intellect,
their thoughts and their life.
They see that the parents want to force them to adhere to their religion
and this again raises the question in front of them as to why religion
should become an obstacle in the way of what they like and who they love.
This question will continue to come up until we present religion to our children
in such a way that it does becomes constitutive in a moral way
of their intellectual and cultural being.
When that happens, they will stop posing such questions.
[Hassan] Please will you also shed light on whether Muslims
should be involved in the local or national politics of the United States,
It is often suggested that there are a few major parties that have their own
manifestos and there are things in those manifestos that are also against Islam,
so if a person becomes a part of these parties and
becomes active in local politics,
then is that an issue from a religious point of view?
[Ghamidi] Of course, that should be the case.
I ask you to consider the countries you come to as your own once
you have acquired their citizenship.
You should feel a sense of belonging and loyalty to that land.
You should think about the development of that country and
when you have all these things in mind,
then if you have a political acumen in you, then you will definitely
participate in politics. In our culture, most people are still associated
with the politics of their former countries and mentally
they are still living in the countries of their birth.
They should be fully integrated to the land they have chosen for themselves.
They must understand the politics and conditions of the land they belong to and
should participate in political parties.
In democratic countries, it is accepted that you can live with different opinions.
Explain your differences of opinion and if you are huge in number,
then you will start affecting those manifestos as well.
It will also affect its cultural outcome.
If you will remain unrelated, then you will only suffer the consequences.
You will have no share in it.
That’s why in my opinion if people are having a political acumen,
they must participate.
[Hassan] Alright. Finally, I would like a message from you
and we will end with the same message.
We are well aware that our religion has covered everything
related to a human being and his or her ethical life.
Do you think that Muslims should learn something from
the western culture and society after they have become a part of it
and if that is the case, then what are those things that they should learn?
[Ghamidi] They have come because there is some attraction for them here,
that is, how these societies have made their journey,
how they have gone through different stages, how they have moved on from
their past errors.
What happened to them when the Renaissance took place
and what consequences did they face when there was revival of the sciences?
What affects has modern science, its inventions and
discoveries had on their minds?
We should study the consequences those discoveries have had on our societies.
There is a lot to learn.
The fact is that it’s not just about the inventions.
It is not only airplane, the Internet, radio and television that
have had serious consequences.
Extraordinary work has been carried out in the social sciences or sociology.
Similarly, how should the organization of the society be?
How should the political system be established from the bottom to the top?
The institutes that are constituted for running a political system like
legislature, executive and judiciary and what will be their mutual roles.
There is a lot to learn from these things.
A believer should always be willing to learn.
Knowledge cannot be divided into West or East.
The correct rule is that the Al hikmatu zaalatul moomin.
The job of a believer is to understand everything in the light of his religion,
to understand it in terms of his cultural values,
and take whatever is right in it as his own inheritance.
And if there is something wrong, be it even in our own culture or society,
it is our moral duty to point out those shortcomings.
Same should be the case here in these societies,
We will be of service here in a similar manner.
It can be the case that those things that are wrong according to us,
even if we understand the right and stand with it and explain the mistake,
then this society and its future generations will also be grateful to us.
[Hassan] We are out of time, Ghamidi sb.
We included Ghamidi sahab remotely in the annual convocation
of Islamic Society of North America ISNA,
and his thoughts reached all the participants.
We are thankful on behalf of the organization as well
for allowing us to express our views.
Insha’Allah, if we ever get a chance,
we will listen directly to Ghamidi Saab in this convocation.
Thank you very much for your time.
[Ghamidi] Thank you very much.