[Hassan Ilyas] In the Name of Allah, the
Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate.

Assalamu alaikum I am Mohammad 
Hassan Ilyas and right now

we are in Dallas at the Ghamdi Centre of 
Islamic Learning.

ISNA which is the oldest organization
of Muslims in America.

ISNA is having its annual convocation but
physical participation

was hampered due to Covid-19.

The organizers requested that we should 
record

some conversations with Ghamidi Sahab.

for the participants of this convocation 
and

that these conversations are related
to the socio-religious challenges

facing Muslims within the United States.

Today we are here for this purpose,
and we are having with us

Mr. Javed Ahmad Ghamdi Sahab 
Asalamu alaikum.

[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] 
Walikum Asalam

[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, thank you 
very much for your time.

At this time you are being heard by people
associated with ISNA all over the world

and especially the Muslim community in 
America.

I would like to ask you first,
that 57 years ago today,

the foundation of this organization was
laid

as "The Islamic Society of North America”,

which is a group of Muslims who settled 
in Western countries

and then became part of the community 
and through the systematic efforts

of their organization, they tried to 
advance their mission and vision

by way of helping the people to develop 
social capital and education.

How do you see this whole idea and
please help us with

your personal opinion about ISNA?

[Ghamidi] This is an extraordinary 
achievement, and

it should be greatly appreciated.

Wherever we go, the needs of human society
come to the fore.

When we move to a foreign place or a 
foreign society

or a place where our culture, tradition, 
civilization is not being followed,

we will face difficulties there.

These problems can be social, cultural 
and sometimes psychological.

The best way out of all these problems
for a Muslim or any other nation,

is to organize its own community.

People who are associated with it, who
belong to the same tradition,

who come from the same background, not 
only do they understand their issues,

but also have a special background which
aids them in resolving them.

With all these things in mind, creating 
such organizations and

creating a bond between them, even if it 
is more than one, it does not matter.

However, the ideal situation is that 
wherever Muslims go,

only one organization should come into
existence because such organizations

have no ideological aspect.

The reason for establishing these 
organizations is to check,

if Muslims have any specific needs
as a community.

Such organizations are formed keeping in
view the aforementioned objectives.

So in my opinion it is difficult to create
unity in the organizations that are

formed on the basis of ideology or in 
which there are ideological discussions

and perhaps there is no need for it
as well.

[Ilyas] okay

[Ghamidi] Their goal is that they address
your mind and in this respect,

for example, there are different 
groups, sects among Muslims,

there is a difference in thinking, which 
leads to formation of an organisation,

as well as institutions.

but as a community, Muslim too face 
some challenges.

For instance to help Muslims in managing
their mosques, guiding them in matters

of fasting and prayers, and meeting their
needs in regard to Hajj and ‘Umrah,

or in the case of funeral arrangements,

if all these needs are put in front of 
them and their general education

is made the goal, that is, something on 
which there is no disagreement.

As we usually say, elementary education is
broad-based.

If an organization is formed, I think it 
is of paramount importance.

You may be aware, we in India
once had reputed scholars

who put forward the view that now that
Muslims' political system has collapsed

so, there should be a collective system
for Muslims of the subcontinent.

This dream could not be
achieved,

but when the Muslims have come out of 
one place and they have started residing

in different countries, I think that 
such organizations

must exist and in my opinion they 
should try to transcend themselves

from differences of opinion as regards
ideologies,

whether there are intellectual 
differences, juristic differences or

differences of any kind.

The topics that should be discussed here 
are those that the whole community needs,

what the Muslim society as a whole
needs.

What their cultural traditions need, what 
they need regarding agreed-upon festivals.

Keeping all these things in view that 
are agreed upon,

establishing such a system is a necessity 
to me as air and water are needed.

[Ilyas] So we will continue this topic.

I will state that most of your listeners 
are Muslims

in the United States at this time.

I will also ask you a few questions 
which we have received from them

so that you can put forward your point of 
view about those who immigrated

to the United States in large 
number during 1960 -1970’s.

They brought their religious and cultural
tradition here, but for the new generation

we see that their is a crisis about 
religious tendencies, cultural aspects,

social backgrounds, clothing, 
everything.

Please, tell me that how parents should
persuade their children in these issues,

so that they should stick to the 
same ideas and principles.

I'll offer an example: we know in western
countries the dress code is different

and our Muslim cultural backgrounds have
different dress codes.

So how will the Muslim parents who
have settled here, convince their children

wear simple and decent clothes as
was the traditions back home?

[Ghamidi] The first thing is that wherever
the parents come from,

they have brought their tradition
with them, their way of life,

their way of conversing and 
how they live.

The child observes this same 
manner.

In the first stage, I always say that how
the parents want their children to become

they should become an example of the same
in their home and their society,

because children will see their parents 
and when they will see them,

after that the first thing they do when 
they see them,

and what they may not feel the need 
to do in their home countries,

is to create awareness of their own 
cultural traditions.

One thing is for sure, whether you 
were born in Morocco, or

in the subcontinent or somewhere in
the Arab world, and

you have lived in the traditions that 
were there and we automatically tend

to adopt these traditions and there is
not much hesitation about accepting

the things that are going on 
in a society or its surrounding.

But every time you go to another 
society,

whatever you choose or insist on, requires
a reasoning and an argument behind it,

so everyone should know when he is 
going to another country,

that if he has a religious tradition, 
what is the reason behind it?

If he’s following certain cultural mores,
what is the history behind it?

The way one dresses, engages with people,
and interacts with others it should be

known as to what are the 
foundations of that?

The first thing is that the parents 
themselves should create

awareness about it.

In other words, they should educate
themselves.

They should arrange for their education
in these matters.

In our case, I have submitted to you that 
these things are usually adopted

by observing the society, hearing from the
parents, which is not

a conscious decision, so it should 
be turned into a conscious activity.

Once upon a time, some of our scholars
used the term that a Muslim needs to be

not just Muslim but a conscious Muslim, 
that is, if he renews his faith,

then the renewal of faith has not been 
said here in

any jurisprudential sense.

Rather, it is being said in the sense
that you have to know yourself,

you have to develop self-knowledge 
and self-identity.

If you are a Muslim, 
why you are a Muslim?

If you have a cultural background, then 
what is the state of it?

What arguments do you have for accepting
those cultural conditions?

You should have knowledge 
pertaining to these things.

Obviously, not all people have the same 
aptitude for knowledge,

so they should try to understand as 
much as they can.

They should try to educate their children 
about the same and

they should rationally present these 
things to their children.

To suggest that they'll convince them
through force, won't be possible today

Perhaps those times have passed.

These things are no longer possible 
in our own countries or even globally.

We have entered a world in which each 
and every culture

is becoming part of a global civilization
in spite of their differing identities.

And when such a 
situation arises, then you have to explain

why you have adopted all those
things that you have.

In this scenario, you can no longer 
rely on parental authority.

Then you should try to find out what 
background you are from.

You may be from a Persian background 
or you may be from an Arab background,

you may be from the subcontinent.

Wherever you are from, your Islamic 
language, you might wonder how a language

can be divided into Islamic and 
non-Islamic?

Of course it is...

How is it so?

Just as we urge people in our own 
countries to learn the English language.

What is the reason behind that?

The reason is that it has become the 
language of modern sciences.

There are other languages of modern 
knowledge too but we are referring

to that language through which many new 
sciences are now reaching us

and if we want access those sciences, 
then we too must master that language.

In the same way, our religion 
came to Arabia, that is,

I mean the form of Islam that we
have received through

Muhammad, the Messenger of God (pbuh)

It is the religion of all the Prophets, 
and it has always been Islam.

But when it was renewed by the 
Prophet (pbuh) and then it was

given to the world and the Quran 
was revealed in Arabic,

the Prophet (pbuh) himself addressed us 
in this language.

Hence, all our sciences began in this 
language. Then came the second period

of Persian language and then after that 
Urdu language got this status.

It is also a case with some other 
languages that they have their

own religious background but if you 
look carefully whatever knowledge

has come about with respect to religion
those great people have

written in these languages only and it has
come into existence through them.

So, at least, one of these languages must
necessarily be taught to children.

It is also important because you want to 
explain your religion, because

you also want to transmit your culture,

and you want to keep them connected to 
your traditions.

It is also important because a person’s 
memory is shaped by his past

and you don’t want to see them alienated 
from the past.

These things have their respective 
background and

they embody themselves in
the fabric of language.

In other words, language is not just 
a means of communication.

It is a big mistake of people to think
that there are such-and-such facts

and If you translate them into such-and
such language, the issue will be resolved

It doesn't end there. It means that when 
an advanced level of knowledge is created,

it is expressed via the pens and mouths of
highly intellectual people.

And unless and until people are in 
a position to benefit from them directly,

after reaching a certain level of 
knowledge,

an individual is not influenced by their 
thought.

Parents will play a role in teaching their 
children,

will learn from their surroundings.

People will learn from their teachers. 
Then once those big questions arise,

then it is important that they are aware 
of the intellectual heritage of Muslims.

and get to know its great people so that
they can benefit from the intelligentsia.

It is the intelligentsia that keeps you
connected to its culture,

religious traditions and to its 
ideology, if it has one.

I always give my 
own example that when

I was trained by my parents, I understood 
some things and observed other things.

Right from the beginning I got acquainted 
with Abul Kalam Azad,

Iqbal, Syed Abul A’al Sahab Maududi and 
Shibli Nomani.

These were the elders with 
whom I got acquainted,

whose writings came to light and 
I had access to their writings.

As a result, there was no need for me 
to fall back on may parents for my doubts.

We must also realize this need and 
provide educational opportunities

to our children accordingly.

[Ilyas] Totally, I would like to conclude
with last two questions.

The children nowadays studying in
High schools, Universities and Colleges;

they have a common question to which
parents have no answer which

is that if they are choosing a partner 
for marriage,

they argue that there are non-Muslims 
just as there are Muslims,

in that they have good morals, they are 
also doing good deeds,

they are also doing charity work, so what 
is the reason that a Muslim boy

or girl at the time of getting married,
should choose a muslim partner

as religion has made it obligatory for 
them to choose only from the Muslims.

Is their any rational explanation to it 
which the parents can present?

[Ghamidi] You said that they have 
good morals and good education.

Why do they need these things?

Because these are some values on 
which you are not ready to compromise.

Which means that a functional home would
be possible only with good values.

It means that morality is an issue 
for you.

You value it. You want to look for it.

You call it a necessity of life.

Same is the case with religion.
If religion is your concern,

if you think that the decision is to be
based on religion and this decision

is to be made on the Day of Judgment and 
my children have to adhere

to a religion and my society has to 
be molded by a religion

then that means that religion is 
an issue for you.

If religion matters to you, then it 
should matter to you

in marriage as well. 
It is a very simple rational point.

And should be looked at like that.

There are those things that I consider 
important,

those that I consider to be a cause for 
concern,

are the sort of things that I analyse.

I will analyse the values of the other 
person whom I have to marry

I have to marry.
I want to build a home.

It’s a lifelong decision.

I will have children.

They have to learn.

So the real issue is that religion is no 
longer relevant for children.

Religion is no longer a part of 
their intellect,

their thoughts and their life.

They see that the parents want to force 
them to adhere to their religion

and this again raises the question in 
front of them as to why religion

should become an obstacle in the way 
of what they like and who they love.

This question will continue to come up 
until we present religion to our children

in such a way that it does becomes 
constitutive in a moral way

of their intellectual and cultural being.

When that happens, they will stop 
posing such questions.

[Hassan] Please will you also shed light 
on whether Muslims

should be involved in the local or 
national politics of the United States,

It is often suggested that there are a few
major parties that have their own

manifestos and there are things in those 
manifestos that are also against Islam,

so if a person becomes a part of these 
parties and

becomes active in local politics,

then is that an issue from a 
religious point of view?

[Ghamidi] Of course, that should be the 
case.

I ask you to consider the countries you 
come to as your own once

you have acquired their citizenship.

You should feel a sense of belonging 
and loyalty to that land.

You should think about the development 
of that country and

when you have all these things in mind,

then if you have a political acumen in 
you, then you will definitely

participate in politics. In our culture, 
most people are still associated

with the politics of their former 
countries and mentally

they are still living in the countries
of their birth.

They should be fully integrated to the 
land they have chosen for themselves.

They must understand the politics and 
conditions of the land they belong to and

should participate in political parties.

In democratic countries, it is accepted 
that you can live with different opinions.

Explain your differences of opinion and 
if you are huge in number,

then you will start affecting those 
manifestos as well.

It will also affect its cultural outcome.

If you will remain unrelated, then you 
will only suffer the consequences.

You will have no share in it.

That’s why in my opinion if people are 
having a political acumen,

they must participate.

[Hassan] Alright. Finally, I would like 
a message from you

and we will end with the same 
message.

We are well aware that our religion
has covered everything

related to a human being and his or
her ethical life.

Do you think that Muslims should learn 
something from

the western culture and society after 
they have become a part of it

and if that is the case, then what are 
those things that they should learn?

[Ghamidi] They have come because there
is some attraction for them here,

that is, how these societies have 
made their journey,

how they have gone through different
stages, how they have moved on from

their past errors.

What happened to them 
when the Renaissance took place

and what consequences did they face 
when there was revival of the sciences?

What affects has modern science, its 
inventions and

discoveries had on their minds?

We should study the consequences those 
discoveries have had on our societies.

There is a lot to learn.

The fact is that it’s not just about the 
inventions.

It is not only airplane, the Internet, 
radio and television that

have had serious consequences.

Extraordinary work has been carried out 
in the social sciences or sociology.

Similarly, how should the organization of 
the society be?

How should the political system be 
established from the bottom to the top?

The institutes that are constituted for
running a political system like

legislature, executive and judiciary and 
what will be their mutual roles.

There is a lot to learn from these things.

A believer should always be 
willing to learn.

Knowledge cannot be divided into 
West or East.

The correct rule is that the Al hikmatu
zaalatul moomin.

The job of a believer is to understand 
everything in the light of his religion,

to understand it in terms of his cultural
values,

and take whatever is right in it as his
own inheritance.

And if there is something wrong, be
it even in our own culture or society,

it is our moral duty
to point out those shortcomings.

Same should be the case here 
in these societies,

We will be of service here in a similar 
manner.

It can be the case that those things that 
are wrong according to us,

even if we understand the right and stand 
with it and explain the mistake,

then this society and its future 
generations will also be grateful to us.

[Hassan] We are out of time, Ghamidi
sb.

We included Ghamidi sahab 
remotely in the annual convocation

of Islamic Society of North America ISNA,

and his thoughts reached 
all the participants.

We are thankful on behalf of the 
organization as well

for allowing us to express our
views.

Insha’Allah, if we ever get a 
chance,

we will listen directly to 
Ghamidi Saab in this convocation.

Thank you very much 
for your time.

[Ghamidi] Thank you very much.