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[Hassan Ilyas] In the Name of Allah, the
Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate.

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Assalamu alaikum I am Mohammad 
Hassan Ilyas and right now

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we are in Dallas at the Ghamdi Centre of 
Islamic Learning.

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ISNA which is the oldest organization
of Muslims in America.

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ISNA is having its annual convocation but
physical participation

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was hampered due to Covid-19.

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The organizers requested that we should 
record

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some conversations with Ghamidi Sahab.

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for the participants of this convocation 
and

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that these conversations are related
to the socio-religious challenges

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facing Muslims within the United States.

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Today we are here for this purpose,
and we are having with us

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Mr. Javed Ahmad Ghamdi Sahab 
Asalamu alaikum.

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[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] 
Walikum Asalam

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[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, thank you 
very much for your time.

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At this time you are being heard by people
associated with ISNA all over the world

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and especially the Muslim community in 
America.

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I would like to ask you first,
that 57 years ago today,

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the foundation of this organization was
laid

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as "The Islamic Society of North America”,

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which is a group of Muslims who settled 
in Western countries

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and then became part of the community 
and through the systematic efforts

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of their organization, they tried to 
advance their mission and vision

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by way of helping the people to develop 
social capital and education.

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How do you see this whole idea and
please help us with

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your personal opinion about ISNA?

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[Ghamidi] This is an extraordinary 
achievement, and

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it should be greatly appreciated.

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Wherever we go, the needs of human society
come to the fore.

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When we move to a foreign place or a 
foreign society

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or a place where our culture, tradition, 
civilization is not being followed,

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we will face difficulties there.

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These problems can be social, cultural 
and sometimes psychological.

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The best way out of all these problems
for a Muslim or any other nation,

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is to organize its own community.

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People who are associated with it, who
belong to the same tradition,

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who come from the same background, not 
only do they understand their issues,

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but also have a special background which
aids them in resolving them.

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With all these things in mind, creating 
such organizations and

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creating a bond between them, even if it 
is more than one, it does not matter.

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However, the ideal situation is that 
wherever Muslims go,

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only one organization should come into
existence because such organizations

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have no ideological aspect.

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The reason for establishing these 
organizations is to check,

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if Muslims have any specific needs
as a community.

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Such organizations are formed keeping in
view the aforementioned objectives.

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So in my opinion it is difficult to create
unity in the organizations that are

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formed on the basis of ideology or in 
which there are ideological discussions

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and perhaps there is no need for it
as well.

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[Ilyas] okay

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[Ghamidi] Their goal is that they address
your mind and in this respect,

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for example, there are different 
groups, sects among Muslims,

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there is a difference in thinking, which 
leads to formation of an organisation,

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as well as institutions.

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but as a community, Muslim too face 
some challenges.

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For instance to help Muslims in managing
their mosques, guiding them in matters

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of fasting and prayers, and meeting their
needs in regard to Hajj and ‘Umrah,

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or in the case of funeral arrangements,

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if all these needs are put in front of 
them and their general education

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is made the goal, that is, something on 
which there is no disagreement.

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As we usually say, elementary education is
broad-based.

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If an organization is formed, I think it 
is of paramount importance.

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You may be aware, we in India
once had reputed scholars

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who put forward the view that now that
Muslims' political system has collapsed

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so, there should be a collective system
for Muslims of the subcontinent.

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This dream could not be
achieved,

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but when the Muslims have come out of 
one place and they have started residing

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in different countries, I think that 
such organizations

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must exist and in my opinion they 
should try to transcend themselves

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from differences of opinion as regards
ideologies,

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whether there are intellectual 
differences, juristic differences or

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differences of any kind.

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The topics that should be discussed here 
are those that the whole community needs,

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what the Muslim society as a whole
needs.

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What their cultural traditions need, what 
they need regarding agreed-upon festivals.

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Keeping all these things in view that 
are agreed upon,

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establishing such a system is a necessity 
to me as air and water are needed.

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[Ilyas] So we will continue this topic.

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I will state that most of your listeners 
are Muslims

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in the United States at this time.

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I will also ask you a few questions 
which we have received from them

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so that you can put forward your point of 
view about those who immigrated

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to the United States in large 
number during 1960 -1970’s.

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They brought their religious and cultural
tradition here, but for the new generation

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we see that their is a crisis about 
religious tendencies, cultural aspects,

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social backgrounds, clothing, 
everything.

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Please, tell me that how parents should
persuade their children in these issues,

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so that they should stick to the 
same ideas and principles.

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I'll offer an example: we know in western
countries the dress code is different

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and our Muslim cultural backgrounds have
different dress codes.

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So how will the Muslim parents who
have settled here, convince their children

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wear simple and decent clothes as
was the traditions back home?

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[Ghamidi] The first thing is that wherever
the parents come from,

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they have brought their tradition
with them, their way of life,

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their way of conversing and 
how they live.

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The child observes this same 
manner.

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In the first stage, I always say that how
the parents want their children to become

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they should become an example of the same
in their home and their society,

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because children will see their parents 
and when they will see them,

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after that the first thing they do when 
they see them,

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and what they may not feel the need 
to do in their home countries,

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is to create awareness of their own 
cultural traditions.

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One thing is for sure, whether you 
were born in Morocco, or

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in the subcontinent or somewhere in
the Arab world, and

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you have lived in the traditions that 
were there and we automatically tend

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to adopt these traditions and there is
not much hesitation about accepting

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the things that are going on 
in a society or its surrounding.

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But every time you go to another 
society,

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whatever you choose or insist on, requires
a reasoning and an argument behind it,

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so everyone should know when he is 
going to another country,

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that if he has a religious tradition, 
what is the reason behind it?

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If he’s following certain cultural mores,
what is the history behind it?

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The way one dresses, engages with people,
and interacts with others it should be

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known as to what are the 
foundations of that?

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The first thing is that the parents 
themselves should create

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awareness about it.

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In other words, they should educate
themselves.

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They should arrange for their education
in these matters.

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In our case, I have submitted to you that 
these things are usually adopted

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by observing the society, hearing from the
parents, which is not

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a conscious decision, so it should 
be turned into a conscious activity.

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Once upon a time, some of our scholars
used the term that a Muslim needs to be

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not just Muslim but a conscious Muslim, 
that is, if he renews his faith,

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then the renewal of faith has not been 
said here in

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any jurisprudential sense.

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Rather, it is being said in the sense
that you have to know yourself,

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you have to develop self-knowledge 
and self-identity.

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If you are a Muslim, 
why you are a Muslim?

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If you have a cultural background, then 
what is the state of it?

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What arguments do you have for accepting
those cultural conditions?

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You should have knowledge 
pertaining to these things.

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Obviously, not all people have the same 
aptitude for knowledge,

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so they should try to understand as 
much as they can.

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They should try to educate their children 
about the same and

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they should rationally present these 
things to their children.

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To suggest that they'll convince them
through force, won't be possible today

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Perhaps those times have passed.

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These things are no longer possible 
in our own countries or even globally.

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We have entered a world in which each 
and every culture

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is becoming part of a global civilization
in spite of their differing identities.

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And when such a 
situation arises, then you have to explain

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why you have adopted all those
things that you have.

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In this scenario, you can no longer 
rely on parental authority.

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Then you should try to find out what 
background you are from.

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You may be from a Persian background 
or you may be from an Arab background,

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you may be from the subcontinent.

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Wherever you are from, your Islamic 
language, you might wonder how a language

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can be divided into Islamic and 
non-Islamic?

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Of course it is...

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How is it so?

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Just as we urge people in our own 
countries to learn the English language.

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What is the reason behind that?

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The reason is that it has become the 
language of modern sciences.

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There are other languages of modern 
knowledge too but we are referring

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to that language through which many new 
sciences are now reaching us

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and if we want access those sciences, 
then we too must master that language.

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In the same way, our religion 
came to Arabia, that is,

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I mean the form of Islam that we
have received through

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Muhammad, the Messenger of God (pbuh)

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It is the religion of all the Prophets, 
and it has always been Islam.

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But when it was renewed by the 
Prophet (pbuh) and then it was

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given to the world and the Quran 
was revealed in Arabic,

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the Prophet (pbuh) himself addressed us 
in this language.

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Hence, all our sciences began in this 
language. Then came the second period

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of Persian language and then after that 
Urdu language got this status.

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It is also a case with some other 
languages that they have their

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own religious background but if you 
look carefully whatever knowledge

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has come about with respect to religion
those great people have

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written in these languages only and it has
come into existence through them.

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So, at least, one of these languages must
necessarily be taught to children.

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It is also important because you want to 
explain your religion, because

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you also want to transmit your culture,

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and you want to keep them connected to 
your traditions.

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It is also important because a person’s 
memory is shaped by his past

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and you don’t want to see them alienated 
from the past.

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These things have their respective 
background and

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they embody themselves in
the fabric of language.

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In other words, language is not just 
a means of communication.

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It is a big mistake of people to think
that there are such-and-such facts

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and If you translate them into such-and
such language, the issue will be resolved

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It doesn't end there. It means that when 
an advanced level of knowledge is created,

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it is expressed via the pens and mouths of
highly intellectual people.

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And unless and until people are in 
a position to benefit from them directly,

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after reaching a certain level of 
knowledge,

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an individual is not influenced by their 
thought.

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Parents will play a role in teaching their 
children,

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will learn from their surroundings.

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People will learn from their teachers. 
Then once those big questions arise,

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then it is important that they are aware 
of the intellectual heritage of Muslims.

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and get to know its great people so that
they can benefit from the intelligentsia.

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It is the intelligentsia that keeps you
connected to its culture,

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religious traditions and to its 
ideology, if it has one.

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I always give my 
own example that when

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I was trained by my parents, I understood 
some things and observed other things.

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Right from the beginning I got acquainted 
with Abul Kalam Azad,

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Iqbal, Syed Abul A’al Sahab Maududi and 
Shibli Nomani.

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These were the elders with 
whom I got acquainted,

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whose writings came to light and 
I had access to their writings.

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As a result, there was no need for me 
to fall back on may parents for my doubts.

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We must also realize this need and 
provide educational opportunities

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to our children accordingly.

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[Ilyas] Totally, I would like to conclude
with last two questions.

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The children nowadays studying in
High schools, Universities and Colleges;

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they have a common question to which
parents have no answer which

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is that if they are choosing a partner 
for marriage,

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they argue that there are non-Muslims 
just as there are Muslims,

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in that they have good morals, they are 
also doing good deeds,

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they are also doing charity work, so what 
is the reason that a Muslim boy

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or girl at the time of getting married,
should choose a muslim partner

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as religion has made it obligatory for 
them to choose only from the Muslims.

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Is their any rational explanation to it 
which the parents can present?

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[Ghamidi] You said that they have 
good morals and good education.

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Why do they need these things?

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Because these are some values on 
which you are not ready to compromise.

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Which means that a functional home would
be possible only with good values.

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It means that morality is an issue 
for you.

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You value it. You want to look for it.

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You call it a necessity of life.

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Same is the case with religion.
If religion is your concern,

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if you think that the decision is to be
based on religion and this decision

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is to be made on the Day of Judgment and 
my children have to adhere

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to a religion and my society has to 
be molded by a religion

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then that means that religion is 
an issue for you.

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If religion matters to you, then it 
should matter to you

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in marriage as well. 
It is a very simple rational point.

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And should be looked at like that.

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There are those things that I consider 
important,

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those that I consider to be a cause for 
concern,

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are the sort of things that I analyse.

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I will analyse the values of the other 
person whom I have to marry

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I have to marry.
I want to build a home.

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It’s a lifelong decision.

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I will have children.

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They have to learn.

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So the real issue is that religion is no 
longer relevant for children.

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Religion is no longer a part of 
their intellect,

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their thoughts and their life.

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They see that the parents want to force 
them to adhere to their religion

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and this again raises the question in 
front of them as to why religion

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should become an obstacle in the way 
of what they like and who they love.

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This question will continue to come up 
until we present religion to our children

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in such a way that it does becomes 
constitutive in a moral way

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of their intellectual and cultural being.

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When that happens, they will stop 
posing such questions.

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[Hassan] Please will you also shed light 
on whether Muslims

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should be involved in the local or 
national politics of the United States,

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It is often suggested that there are a few
major parties that have their own

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manifestos and there are things in those 
manifestos that are also against Islam,

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so if a person becomes a part of these 
parties and

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becomes active in local politics,

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then is that an issue from a 
religious point of view?

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[Ghamidi] Of course, that should be the 
case.

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I ask you to consider the countries you 
come to as your own once

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you have acquired their citizenship.

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You should feel a sense of belonging 
and loyalty to that land.

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You should think about the development 
of that country and

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when you have all these things in mind,

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then if you have a political acumen in 
you, then you will definitely

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participate in politics. In our culture, 
most people are still associated

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with the politics of their former 
countries and mentally

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they are still living in the countries
of their birth.

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They should be fully integrated to the 
land they have chosen for themselves.

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They must understand the politics and 
conditions of the land they belong to and

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should participate in political parties.

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In democratic countries, it is accepted 
that you can live with different opinions.

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Explain your differences of opinion and 
if you are huge in number,

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then you will start affecting those 
manifestos as well.

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It will also affect its cultural outcome.

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If you will remain unrelated, then you 
will only suffer the consequences.

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You will have no share in it.

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That’s why in my opinion if people are 
having a political acumen,

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they must participate.

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[Hassan] Alright. Finally, I would like 
a message from you

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and we will end with the same 
message.

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We are well aware that our religion
has covered everything

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related to a human being and his or
her ethical life.

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Do you think that Muslims should learn 
something from

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the western culture and society after 
they have become a part of it

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and if that is the case, then what are 
those things that they should learn?

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[Ghamidi] They have come because there
is some attraction for them here,

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that is, how these societies have 
made their journey,

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how they have gone through different
stages, how they have moved on from

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their past errors.

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00:17:35,092 --> 00:17:38,552
What happened to them 
when the Renaissance took place

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00:17:38,552 --> 00:17:44,492
and what consequences did they face 
when there was revival of the sciences?

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00:17:44,492 --> 00:17:51,203
What affects has modern science, its 
inventions and

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00:17:51,203 --> 00:17:54,303
discoveries had on their minds?

288
00:17:54,663 --> 00:17:58,635
We should study the consequences those 
discoveries have had on our societies.

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There is a lot to learn.

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00:18:00,993 --> 00:18:04,443
The fact is that it’s not just about the 
inventions.

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00:18:04,443 --> 00:18:09,593
It is not only airplane, the Internet, 
radio and television that

292
00:18:09,593 --> 00:18:11,913
have had serious consequences.

293
00:18:11,913 --> 00:18:17,423
Extraordinary work has been carried out 
in the social sciences or sociology.

294
00:18:17,423 --> 00:18:20,191
Similarly, how should the organization of 
the society be?

295
00:18:20,191 --> 00:18:24,379
How should the political system be 
established from the bottom to the top?

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00:18:24,379 --> 00:18:27,743
The institutes that are constituted for
running a political system like

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00:18:27,743 --> 00:18:31,973
legislature, executive and judiciary and 
what will be their mutual roles.

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00:18:31,973 --> 00:18:34,675
There is a lot to learn from these things.

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00:18:34,675 --> 00:18:37,322
A believer should always be 
willing to learn.

300
00:18:37,322 --> 00:18:41,022
Knowledge cannot be divided into 
West or East.

301
00:18:41,351 --> 00:18:45,351
The correct rule is that the Al hikmatu
zaalatul moomin.

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00:18:45,571 --> 00:18:50,997
The job of a believer is to understand 
everything in the light of his religion,

303
00:18:50,997 --> 00:18:55,084
to understand it in terms of his cultural
values,

304
00:18:55,084 --> 00:18:59,919
and take whatever is right in it as his
own inheritance.

305
00:18:59,919 --> 00:19:05,594
And if there is something wrong, be
it even in our own culture or society,

306
00:19:05,594 --> 00:19:09,031
it is our moral duty
to point out those shortcomings.

307
00:19:09,031 --> 00:19:12,153
Same should be the case here 
in these societies,

308
00:19:12,153 --> 00:19:14,803
We will be of service here in a similar 
manner.

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00:19:14,803 --> 00:19:18,153
It can be the case that those things that 
are wrong according to us,

310
00:19:18,153 --> 00:19:24,739
even if we understand the right and stand 
with it and explain the mistake,

311
00:19:24,739 --> 00:19:29,059
then this society and its future 
generations will also be grateful to us.

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00:19:29,059 --> 00:19:31,089
[Hassan] We are out of time, Ghamidi
sb.

313
00:19:31,089 --> 00:19:34,218
We included Ghamidi sahab 
remotely in the annual convocation

314
00:19:34,218 --> 00:19:37,198
of Islamic Society of North America ISNA,

315
00:19:37,198 --> 00:19:40,138
and his thoughts reached 
all the participants.

316
00:19:40,138 --> 00:19:44,118
We are thankful on behalf of the 
organization as well

317
00:19:44,118 --> 00:19:46,108
for allowing us to express our
views.

318
00:19:46,108 --> 00:19:48,003
Insha’Allah, if we ever get a 
chance,

319
00:19:48,003 --> 00:19:49,978
we will listen directly to 
Ghamidi Saab in this convocation.

320
00:19:49,978 --> 00:19:51,558
Thank you very much 
for your time.

321
00:19:51,558 --> 00:19:52,988
[Ghamidi] Thank you very much.