WEBVTT 00:00:01.262 --> 00:00:04.746 When I was 26 years old, barely out of grad school, 00:00:04.770 --> 00:00:07.965 I was asked to come teach a half-day class about motivation. 00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:10.055 I was excited for it. 00:00:10.079 --> 00:00:13.645 And then I found out my audience would be generals and colonels 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:15.069 in the US Air Force. 00:00:15.812 --> 00:00:17.956 I was way underqualified. 00:00:18.375 --> 00:00:21.105 And I wanted to back out, but it was too late. 00:00:21.625 --> 00:00:22.958 So I walked in, 00:00:22.982 --> 00:00:26.347 and I was staring at a room full of people twice my age, 00:00:26.371 --> 00:00:30.106 wearing full military garb with all their medals on display. 00:00:30.807 --> 00:00:34.672 They had nicknames like Gunner, Striker and Stealth. 00:00:35.792 --> 00:00:39.155 By the end of the first hour, I felt like I was bombing. 00:00:39.990 --> 00:00:43.029 And sure enough, in the reviews they wrote after class, 00:00:43.053 --> 00:00:44.402 they bombed me. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:45.355 --> 00:00:46.696 One wrote, 00:00:46.720 --> 00:00:50.652 "There was more quality information in the audience than on the podium." 00:00:51.978 --> 00:00:53.410 Another said, 00:00:53.434 --> 00:00:56.418 "I gained very little from the session, 00:00:56.442 --> 00:00:59.577 but I trust the instructor did gain useful insight." NOTE Paragraph 00:00:59.601 --> 00:01:02.049 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:01:02.073 --> 00:01:04.349 It felt like a punch in the stomach. 00:01:05.010 --> 00:01:07.211 And I couldn't get it out of my head. 00:01:07.647 --> 00:01:12.236 So I did what any self-respecting organizational psychologist would do: 00:01:12.260 --> 00:01:16.102 I started studying why it's often soul-crushing to receive criticism. 00:01:16.656 --> 00:01:19.631 And whether we could actually learn to like it. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:19.655 --> 00:01:26.044 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:01:26.068 --> 00:01:27.537 I'm Adam Grant. 00:01:27.561 --> 00:01:29.990 This is WorkLife, my TED podcast. 00:01:30.344 --> 00:01:32.516 I study how to make work not suck. 00:01:32.950 --> 00:01:36.450 Organizations like Google, the NBA and the Gates Foundation 00:01:36.474 --> 00:01:38.958 have invited me in to help make jobs more meaningful, 00:01:38.982 --> 00:01:41.783 teams more creative and cultures more collaborative. 00:01:41.807 --> 00:01:46.553 In this show, I'm inviting myself in to some truly unusual places, 00:01:46.577 --> 00:01:50.626 where they've mastered something I wish everyone else knew about work. 00:01:51.267 --> 00:01:54.410 Today, the art and science of criticism. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:55.664 --> 00:01:58.395 Thanks to Bonobos for sponsoring this episode. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:58.419 --> 00:02:02.093 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:02:02.117 --> 00:02:04.310 Adam Grant: Hey, Kiran. Kiran Rao: Hello, Adam. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:04.334 --> 00:02:06.308 AG: How are you? KR: Doing well, and you? NOTE Paragraph 00:02:06.332 --> 00:02:07.499 AG: Good. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:07.523 --> 00:02:08.722 This is Kiran Rao. 00:02:08.746 --> 00:02:11.093 He used to be a manager at a financial company. 00:02:11.117 --> 00:02:14.839 Like most managers, he spent a ton of time in meetings. 00:02:14.863 --> 00:02:17.537 And most of them were pretty run-of-the-mill. 00:02:17.561 --> 00:02:20.513 But there's one meeting that Kiran will never forget. 00:02:21.307 --> 00:02:24.284 Here's Kiran, breaking down a recording of that meeting for us. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:24.308 --> 00:02:26.609 KR: We were in this large white tent, 00:02:26.633 --> 00:02:30.230 200 people sitting around, the top 200 or 300 managers. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:30.254 --> 00:02:32.207 Audio clip: Man: So the next two sections 00:02:32.231 --> 00:02:34.315 are going to be about practical application. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:34.339 --> 00:02:37.086 KR: We'd been talking about multiple strategic points, 00:02:37.110 --> 00:02:38.315 and up comes a chart -- NOTE Paragraph 00:02:38.339 --> 00:02:39.864 Audio clip: Man: This is a list 00:02:39.888 --> 00:02:43.622 of forced-ranking the people in this room by performance. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:43.646 --> 00:02:46.371 KR: Which was labeled "the worst managers." NOTE Paragraph 00:02:46.395 --> 00:02:48.585 Audio clip: Man: So these are people we love. 00:02:48.609 --> 00:02:52.591 Some of the people in this room, these names, probably shouldn't be here. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:53.071 --> 00:02:55.666 KR: And I was number one on the list. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:55.690 --> 00:02:58.214 Audio clip: Man: I look at this name -- I hired Kiran. 00:02:58.238 --> 00:03:01.832 Apparently in his first couple years, he's not doing that well. NOTE Paragraph 00:03:01.856 --> 00:03:05.504 AG: Wow. So you're totally caught by surprise. 00:03:05.528 --> 00:03:08.078 You're staring at a room of 200 people, 00:03:08.102 --> 00:03:10.975 and being told you are the single worst manager in that room. NOTE Paragraph 00:03:10.999 --> 00:03:12.286 KR: That's right. NOTE Paragraph 00:03:12.310 --> 00:03:13.460 AG: What was that like? NOTE Paragraph 00:03:14.239 --> 00:03:15.389 KR: Um ... NOTE Paragraph 00:03:17.028 --> 00:03:18.441 It was intense. NOTE Paragraph 00:03:18.465 --> 00:03:23.108 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:03:23.132 --> 00:03:25.243 AG: We'll hear more from Kiran later. 00:03:25.267 --> 00:03:28.874 But right now, I want you to imagine you're Kiran, right in that moment. 00:03:29.299 --> 00:03:31.624 Think about what happens when you get criticized. 00:03:32.141 --> 00:03:36.346 Like, physically: your shoulders tighten, your breath gets shallower. 00:03:36.887 --> 00:03:39.204 Negative feedback sets off alarm bells. 00:03:39.228 --> 00:03:41.277 It actually touches a nerve in your body. 00:03:41.982 --> 00:03:43.450 And psychologically? 00:03:43.474 --> 00:03:44.847 Your mind races. 00:03:45.379 --> 00:03:48.211 You start to put up shields and mount a counterattack. 00:03:49.085 --> 00:03:51.419 If you were a peacock, you'd strut. 00:03:51.728 --> 00:03:54.371 If you were an ape, you'd beat your chest. 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:57.268 But humans have another kind of reaction. 00:03:57.736 --> 00:03:59.459 There was a study a few decades ago 00:03:59.483 --> 00:04:02.761 that said our ego can get so defensive in these situations 00:04:02.785 --> 00:04:06.109 that it becomes its own little totalitarian regime. 00:04:06.133 --> 00:04:09.204 It starts to control the flow of information to our brains 00:04:09.228 --> 00:04:11.251 the way a dictator controls the media. 00:04:11.902 --> 00:04:13.062 Think about that. 00:04:13.086 --> 00:04:15.623 Your own ego is censoring what you hear. 00:04:16.298 --> 00:04:19.833 But if we never hear criticism, we'll never improve. 00:04:20.418 --> 00:04:21.950 What would it be like in a place 00:04:21.974 --> 00:04:24.252 where people constantly criticize each other -- 00:04:24.276 --> 00:04:26.950 and crave that kind of feedback for themselves 00:04:26.974 --> 00:04:29.094 in order to make everyone better? 00:04:29.450 --> 00:04:31.593 I've worked with hundreds of organizations 00:04:31.617 --> 00:04:34.371 and I found only one where that's truly the norm. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:34.395 --> 00:04:37.695 Ray Dalio: You could say to me, "Hey, jerk, you're being an asshole." 00:04:37.719 --> 00:04:39.869 And then we'll say, OK, am I being an asshole? NOTE Paragraph 00:04:39.893 --> 00:04:41.869 AG: This is the guy in charge. 00:04:41.893 --> 00:04:43.052 His name is Ray. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:43.076 --> 00:04:45.273 RD: One of the biggest tragedies of mankind 00:04:45.297 --> 00:04:48.759 is people holding in their opinions in their heads, 00:04:48.783 --> 00:04:52.109 and it's such a tragedy because it could so easily be fixed 00:04:52.133 --> 00:04:53.783 if they put them out there 00:04:53.807 --> 00:04:55.958 and stress-tested them in the right way. 00:04:55.982 --> 00:04:59.593 They would so raise their probability of making a better decision. 00:05:00.069 --> 00:05:03.483 Everybody's giving high fives, they're all smiling at each other. 00:05:03.507 --> 00:05:06.490 But they're not dealing with the things they need to deal with. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:06.514 --> 00:05:09.649 AG: It's incredibly fun to think about, like, 00:05:09.673 --> 00:05:11.649 you can go around calling people assholes 00:05:11.673 --> 00:05:14.553 and their default response is supposed to be, "Tell me more." 00:05:14.577 --> 00:05:17.252 Is that really how you want people to react to criticism? NOTE Paragraph 00:05:17.276 --> 00:05:20.920 RD: Well, I want to put that on the table together and look at that, 00:05:20.944 --> 00:05:24.783 because maybe I'm the one who's being a jerk or misunderstanding. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:24.807 --> 00:05:26.371 AG: In the mid 1970s, 00:05:26.395 --> 00:05:29.959 Ray Dalio started a financial firm called Bridgewater Associates. 00:05:30.323 --> 00:05:33.582 At first, he was working out of a barn with his friends. 00:05:33.974 --> 00:05:36.641 He got really successful really quickly. 00:05:37.141 --> 00:05:38.648 And then he got cocky. 00:05:39.236 --> 00:05:40.799 He placed a bad bet. 00:05:40.823 --> 00:05:42.188 It tanked his firm. 00:05:42.212 --> 00:05:43.776 He had to fire his friends. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.347 RD: And I was so broke 00:05:46.371 --> 00:05:49.569 that I had to borrow 4,000 dollars from my dad 00:05:49.593 --> 00:05:51.319 to help pay for my family bills. 00:05:51.728 --> 00:05:54.879 And that was extremely painful. 00:05:54.903 --> 00:05:56.969 It turned out to be terrific. NOTE Paragraph 00:05:57.577 --> 00:06:01.125 AG: I'm sorry, you just said it was terrific that is was so painful? 00:06:01.149 --> 00:06:04.092 Because normal human beings don't feel that way. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:04.116 --> 00:06:06.403 RD: I mean, like, I was absolutely miserable. 00:06:06.427 --> 00:06:10.652 But it gave me the humility that I needed to deal with my audacity. 00:06:10.676 --> 00:06:14.291 It made me want to find the smartest people I could find 00:06:14.315 --> 00:06:15.782 who disagreed with me. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:16.085 --> 00:06:17.627 AG: Ray realized that he crashed 00:06:17.651 --> 00:06:20.064 because there wasn't anyone around to check his ego 00:06:20.088 --> 00:06:21.618 when he was on top of the world. 00:06:21.642 --> 00:06:25.093 He only listened to himself or people who constantly said yes. 00:06:25.117 --> 00:06:27.204 Now, he was on his own. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:27.593 --> 00:06:32.243 RD: So that experience was the one that really kind of, drove it home for me. 00:06:32.544 --> 00:06:35.783 And I say, if you don't look back on yourself and think, 00:06:35.807 --> 00:06:38.791 "Wow, how stupid I was a year or two ago," 00:06:38.815 --> 00:06:41.712 then you must not have learned much in the last year or two. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:41.736 --> 00:06:44.320 AG: Ray decided that the next version of his company 00:06:44.344 --> 00:06:46.237 would have a different kind of culture 00:06:46.261 --> 00:06:49.076 where everyone would be brutally honest with each other. 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:51.434 And that's what Bridgewater does today. 00:06:51.458 --> 00:06:53.725 Ray calls it radical transparency. 00:06:54.204 --> 00:06:57.815 Every criticism, every opinion, out in the open. 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.902 You're comfortable just putting that out there, transparently? NOTE Paragraph 00:07:00.926 --> 00:07:04.585 RD: Why shouldn't we be? NOTE Paragraph 00:07:04.609 --> 00:07:09.998 AG: Embarrassment, pain, you know, ridicule, cruelty. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:10.022 --> 00:07:13.117 RD: OK, but it's not those kinds of things, right? 00:07:13.141 --> 00:07:15.712 We recognize that it can be a difficult moment. 00:07:15.736 --> 00:07:20.323 Before people come here, we ask them, do they want to do that. 00:07:20.347 --> 00:07:21.656 Isn't this good, 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.799 to make them partners in that self-discovery of what is actually true? NOTE Paragraph 00:07:27.076 --> 00:07:29.161 AG: Bridgewater Associates is now considered 00:07:29.185 --> 00:07:31.248 the most successful hedge fund in the world. 00:07:31.867 --> 00:07:35.306 And Ray believes the culture is the driving force behind their success. 00:07:35.719 --> 00:07:38.749 They manage 160 billion dollars in assets, 00:07:38.773 --> 00:07:41.315 and Ray has become one of the richest people on earth. 00:07:42.165 --> 00:07:43.649 If you can't tell by now, 00:07:43.673 --> 00:07:47.255 Bridgewater is also one of the strangest workplaces I've ever seen. 00:07:47.815 --> 00:07:50.513 Feedback is only one piece of what makes them different. 00:07:50.883 --> 00:07:53.244 I'm not here to analyze all their practices, 00:07:53.268 --> 00:07:56.306 dissect their performance or suggest you copy them. 00:07:56.728 --> 00:07:59.545 But I do believe that if we want to get better at something, 00:07:59.569 --> 00:08:01.617 we should go and learn from the extreme. 00:08:01.641 --> 00:08:04.578 You know, the same way you might try and pick up a workout tip 00:08:04.602 --> 00:08:05.942 from an Olympic athlete. 00:08:05.966 --> 00:08:08.682 Bridgewater goes to the extreme on criticism. 00:08:09.165 --> 00:08:12.173 They think you can learn to dish it out and even crave it. 00:08:13.196 --> 00:08:16.474 Over the years, they've had some high-profile senior leaders. 00:08:16.498 --> 00:08:19.402 Including James Comey, the recent FBI director. 00:08:20.061 --> 00:08:23.465 He even talked about Bridgewater at his Senate confirmation hearing. NOTE Paragraph 00:08:23.489 --> 00:08:25.117 James Comey: I went to Bridgewater 00:08:25.141 --> 00:08:27.475 in part because of that culture of transparency -- 00:08:27.499 --> 00:08:30.268 it's something that's long been part of me. NOTE Paragraph 00:08:30.292 --> 00:08:32.417 AG: Today, about 2,000 people work there 00:08:32.441 --> 00:08:36.854 and every single one of them is expected to put criticism out in the open. 00:08:36.878 --> 00:08:39.821 Even if the billionaire founder is the target. 00:08:40.386 --> 00:08:43.918 Here's an email Ray got one day from a colleague named Jim Haskel. 00:08:44.347 --> 00:08:47.806 "Ray, you deserve a 'D-minus' for your performance today. 00:08:48.323 --> 00:08:50.378 You rambled for 50 minutes. 00:08:50.768 --> 00:08:54.228 It was obvious to all of us that you did not prepare at all. 00:08:54.553 --> 00:08:57.950 Today was really bad, we can't let this happen again." 00:08:58.855 --> 00:09:03.069 When Jim sent his scathing review, Ray decided to get a few more opinions. 00:09:03.565 --> 00:09:06.192 He asked his colleagues to rate his performance that day 00:09:06.216 --> 00:09:07.945 on a scale from A to F. 00:09:08.398 --> 00:09:11.795 Then he shared the feedback with everyone else. 00:09:11.819 --> 00:09:15.563 And let me tell you, Ray did not get any As for that meeting. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:15.587 --> 00:09:16.744 RD: I sucked! NOTE Paragraph 00:09:16.768 --> 00:09:18.967 AG: I think a lot of people in that situation 00:09:18.991 --> 00:09:21.491 would have just sorted the conversation out with Jim. 00:09:21.515 --> 00:09:23.213 And you replied and you said, 00:09:23.237 --> 00:09:25.912 "Hey, everybody else in the meeting, I'm looping you in." NOTE Paragraph 00:09:25.936 --> 00:09:27.268 RD: No, the whole company. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:27.292 --> 00:09:29.498 AG: That went to the whole company? RD: Yeah. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:29.522 --> 00:09:31.347 AG: A to F? RD: It's very important. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:31.664 --> 00:09:34.577 AG: This kind of thing is happening constantly at Bridgewater. 00:09:34.601 --> 00:09:37.190 What would you do if someone gave you a D-minus? 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:40.934 There are actual studies showing that when coworkers criticize us, 00:09:40.958 --> 00:09:43.276 we tend to drop them from our lives. 00:09:43.300 --> 00:09:45.459 Or at least avoid them at all costs. 00:09:46.022 --> 00:09:48.198 Instead, we go straight to our cheerleaders 00:09:48.222 --> 00:09:50.156 to complain and get reassurance. 00:09:50.553 --> 00:09:53.807 Our friends, our favorite like-minded colleagues, mom. 00:09:54.395 --> 00:09:55.968 That's our support network. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:55.992 --> 00:09:57.561 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:09:57.585 --> 00:10:00.188 But there's another kind of network that we all need: 00:10:00.212 --> 00:10:01.546 a challenge network. 00:10:02.331 --> 00:10:06.347 A challenge network is the group of people that you trust to push you to get better. 00:10:06.934 --> 00:10:10.291 They tell you the stuff you don't want to hear but need to hear. 00:10:10.688 --> 00:10:13.672 And Bridgewater is one big challenge network. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:13.696 --> 00:10:15.950 RD: I want Jim's critiques. 00:10:16.371 --> 00:10:18.807 Because I might be inclined to ramble, 00:10:18.831 --> 00:10:22.149 and because I might be inclined to not be prepared. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:22.173 --> 00:10:25.601 AG: So Ray made a promise to Jim: he'd do better the next time. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:25.625 --> 00:10:28.188 RD: He said, "Listen, I can't trust you to do that. 00:10:28.212 --> 00:10:30.918 And I say, "Great, I can't trust me to do that, either." 00:10:31.307 --> 00:10:34.261 And so as a regular protocol, he'll call me up, 00:10:34.285 --> 00:10:36.915 because he understands that it works well for both of us 00:10:36.939 --> 00:10:38.537 and works well for the company. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:38.561 --> 00:10:42.633 AG: A challenge network can only help you if you're ready to listen. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:42.657 --> 00:10:46.815 RD: It's particularly important for me to be showing anybody what I'm doing, 00:10:46.839 --> 00:10:48.791 including my failures, my successes. 00:10:48.815 --> 00:10:51.370 Yes. Why would you not do that? NOTE Paragraph 00:10:52.125 --> 00:10:54.291 AG: Well, because you're afraid of the answer. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:54.315 --> 00:10:55.847 RD: What are you afraid of? NOTE Paragraph 00:10:55.871 --> 00:10:59.836 AG: Of the emperor being discovered to have no clothes. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:00.450 --> 00:11:04.934 RD: If your objective is to be as good as you can possibly be, 00:11:04.958 --> 00:11:07.117 then you're going to want that. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:07.141 --> 00:11:10.276 AG: I think a lot of people would rather maintain 00:11:10.300 --> 00:11:13.537 at least the illusion of a decent image than to actually improve. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:13.561 --> 00:11:16.020 RD: But then they care more about their image 00:11:16.044 --> 00:11:17.977 than they care about results. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:18.685 --> 00:11:20.851 AG: And you're not willing to tolerate that. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:21.812 --> 00:11:24.256 RD: You know, life's much better with good results. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:24.280 --> 00:11:25.430 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:11:26.415 --> 00:11:29.101 AG: The idea of criticizing each other this openly 00:11:29.125 --> 00:11:30.658 might sound terrifying. 00:11:31.117 --> 00:11:32.267 I get that. 00:11:32.624 --> 00:11:35.649 In lots of workplaces, it would be painful at best 00:11:35.673 --> 00:11:37.073 and abusive at worst. 00:11:37.474 --> 00:11:40.140 There's a bunch of work by economists 00:11:40.164 --> 00:11:43.449 showing that rankings generally demotivate people. 00:11:43.473 --> 00:11:45.371 People, even at the top, are like, 00:11:45.395 --> 00:11:47.251 "I expected to be further at the top." 00:11:47.275 --> 00:11:49.896 And everybody at the bottom doesn't enjoy the experience 00:11:49.920 --> 00:11:52.928 of comparing themselves negatively to everyone else around them. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:52.952 --> 00:11:59.102 RD: In normal companies, I suspect that they don't prepare people, 00:11:59.126 --> 00:12:02.254 agree on it, say, "Is this a good thing?" NOTE Paragraph 00:12:02.634 --> 00:12:04.569 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:12:04.593 --> 00:12:06.474 AG: What about your workplace? 00:12:06.498 --> 00:12:08.636 What would happen if you just decided one day 00:12:08.660 --> 00:12:10.561 to be radically transparent? 00:12:10.585 --> 00:12:12.185 It might not go so well. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:12.847 --> 00:12:15.728 AJ: I was working at "Esquire" magazine at the time, 00:12:15.752 --> 00:12:19.466 and I said to my editor in a meeting at one point, 00:12:19.490 --> 00:12:22.521 "You know what, I really would rather be at the 'New Yorker,' 00:12:22.545 --> 00:12:25.239 and if they offered me a job, I would take that." 00:12:25.744 --> 00:12:29.403 And he was stone-faced, he did not like it. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:29.427 --> 00:12:30.625 AG: That's AJ Jacobs, 00:12:30.649 --> 00:12:33.804 a writer who thinks it's fun to live his life as an experiment. 00:12:34.299 --> 00:12:35.871 For a story he was working on, 00:12:35.895 --> 00:12:39.627 AJ committed to being 100 percent transparent for a few weeks. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:39.651 --> 00:12:42.714 AJ: If you hate your boss, tell your boss, "I hate you." NOTE Paragraph 00:12:42.738 --> 00:12:46.055 AG: AJ did that with everyone he talked to. 00:12:46.079 --> 00:12:51.442 His mother-in-law, elderly neighbors, his kids, his wife's friends. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:51.466 --> 00:12:53.625 AJ: I was out with my wife at a restaurant, 00:12:53.649 --> 00:12:57.140 and we saw some friends of hers that she hadn't seen since college. 00:12:57.465 --> 00:12:59.847 And they were all excited to see her and they said, 00:12:59.871 --> 00:13:03.085 "Oh, we should all get together and have a play date with our kids." 00:13:03.109 --> 00:13:05.018 And I had to say what was on my mind, 00:13:05.042 --> 00:13:07.426 which was, "You guys seem like nice people, 00:13:07.450 --> 00:13:09.960 but I really don't want to see you again." NOTE Paragraph 00:13:10.355 --> 00:13:12.664 AG: (Laughter) Oh, no! AJ: Oh, yeah. 00:13:12.688 --> 00:13:16.323 They were offended, rightly, and my wife was furious. 00:13:16.704 --> 00:13:18.331 So it was a disaster. 00:13:18.355 --> 00:13:20.244 I mean, we never did see them again 00:13:20.268 --> 00:13:23.014 so it is efficient, it was effective. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:23.038 --> 00:13:27.633 Kim Scott: (Laughter) So in my parlance, 00:13:27.657 --> 00:13:30.816 saying something like that is not radical candor, 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:32.236 it's obnoxious aggression. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:32.260 --> 00:13:35.735 AG: Kim Scott is an executive coach in Silicon Valley. 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:37.720 She works with CEOs and managers 00:13:37.744 --> 00:13:40.426 on being radically candid in their feedback. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:40.450 --> 00:13:43.577 KS: Be a kick-ass boss without loosing your humanity. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:43.601 --> 00:13:47.124 AG: I asked Kim how we can all get better at providing criticism. 00:13:47.148 --> 00:13:48.329 And guess what. 00:13:48.353 --> 00:13:52.228 It's about just blurting out whatever pops into your head, like AJ did. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:52.252 --> 00:13:54.273 KS: The idea of radical candor 00:13:54.297 --> 00:13:57.919 is that you're caring personally about the other person 00:13:57.943 --> 00:14:00.767 at the same time that you're challenging them directly. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:01.188 --> 00:14:05.013 AG: I guess then, how do I get comfortable you know, challenging directly? 00:14:05.331 --> 00:14:08.644 When I do challenge, how do I make sure that I show care? NOTE Paragraph 00:14:09.498 --> 00:14:11.404 KS: My biggest piece of advice 00:14:11.428 --> 00:14:14.380 is eliminate the phrase "Don't take it personally" 00:14:14.404 --> 00:14:15.950 from your vocabulary. 00:14:15.974 --> 00:14:19.713 It's OK if somebody's getting upset or having an emotional reaction, 00:14:19.737 --> 00:14:20.998 it's normal. 00:14:21.022 --> 00:14:22.339 It is inevitable. 00:14:22.847 --> 00:14:26.486 What you want to do is you want to react with compassion to them. 00:14:26.510 --> 00:14:31.342 If I had emotional Novocaine, I would give it to you. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:32.073 --> 00:14:35.284 AG: I have seen so many people say, 00:14:35.308 --> 00:14:38.450 "Alright, I'm really uncomfortable challenging directly, 00:14:38.474 --> 00:14:41.325 and so one of the ways I'll show that I care personally is, 00:14:41.349 --> 00:14:43.657 I'm going to deliver a feedback sandwich: 00:14:43.681 --> 00:14:47.252 you know, open up with some praise, and then criticism comes in the middle, 00:14:47.276 --> 00:14:49.347 and then a slice of praise again, 00:14:49.371 --> 00:14:51.656 so we start and end on a high note. 00:14:51.680 --> 00:14:54.839 And the research I've read on this is pretty clear in saying 00:14:54.863 --> 00:14:56.978 this is a bad idea, for two reasons. 00:14:57.002 --> 00:14:59.004 One, when you lead with praise, 00:14:59.028 --> 00:15:01.276 they're just waiting for the other shoe to drop, 00:15:01.300 --> 00:15:03.180 and it seems insincere. 00:15:03.649 --> 00:15:06.483 And two is that people often tune out what's in the middle. 00:15:07.013 --> 00:15:10.616 And so, what's your preferred alternative to the feedback sandwich? NOTE Paragraph 00:15:10.973 --> 00:15:13.545 KS: I agree, nobody really likes a shit sandwich. 00:15:13.569 --> 00:15:17.529 And so it's important for both praise and criticism, 00:15:17.553 --> 00:15:19.458 but especially for criticism, 00:15:19.482 --> 00:15:22.172 is to go in being humble. 00:15:22.498 --> 00:15:25.562 You may be wrong in what you're saying, 00:15:25.586 --> 00:15:26.841 and that's OK. 00:15:27.235 --> 00:15:31.522 One of the most important things you can do when offering criticism 00:15:31.546 --> 00:15:33.943 is to state your intention to be helpful. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:33.967 --> 00:15:35.886 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:15:35.910 --> 00:15:37.950 AG: There's evidence to back this up. 00:15:37.974 --> 00:15:40.283 It's something I heard a lot at Bridgewater, too. 00:15:40.307 --> 00:15:43.541 It's easier to take criticism when you know it's meant to help you. 00:15:43.983 --> 00:15:46.181 From the outside, it might sound harsh. 00:15:46.530 --> 00:15:48.356 But they think it's good for them. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:48.380 --> 00:15:50.928 KS: If you know that it's healthy, 00:15:50.952 --> 00:15:53.776 and you've experienced firsthand the benefit, 00:15:53.800 --> 00:15:55.340 you're going to keep seeking it, 00:15:55.364 --> 00:15:58.093 just like, it still hurts sometimes to go running, 00:15:58.117 --> 00:16:02.839 but I know how important that is to my well-being, so I'll keep doing it, 00:16:02.863 --> 00:16:06.633 even though it's always kind of an effort to get myself out the door. 00:16:06.657 --> 00:16:09.117 I think it's the same with criticism. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:09.141 --> 00:16:11.339 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:16:11.363 --> 00:16:13.134 AG: More on that after the break. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:13.780 --> 00:16:15.871 This is going to be a different kind of ad. 00:16:15.895 --> 00:16:18.426 In the spirit of exploring creative ideas at work, 00:16:18.450 --> 00:16:21.270 we're going to take you inside Bonobos, our sponsor. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:21.294 --> 00:16:28.294 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:16:32.911 --> 00:16:35.374 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:16:35.398 --> 00:16:38.891 Like everyone else on earth, I hate calling customer service. 00:16:39.474 --> 00:16:41.268 It's hard to get a human on the line, 00:16:41.292 --> 00:16:44.092 and if you do, they're usually stuck reading from a script. 00:16:44.442 --> 00:16:47.268 If you want to get anywhere, you have to ask for the manager 00:16:47.292 --> 00:16:48.825 over and over and over. 00:16:49.395 --> 00:16:51.689 But that's not how things work at Bonobos. 00:16:52.058 --> 00:16:55.910 They make great fitting men's clothes, and if you call them with a problem, 00:16:55.934 --> 00:16:58.690 you get a real person empowered to actually help. 00:16:59.172 --> 00:17:01.180 Bonobos calls them Ninjas. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:01.204 --> 00:17:06.031 Kelsey Nash: My actual title is Creative Customer Engagement Lead. 00:17:06.055 --> 00:17:09.441 I'm on the management team of the Ninjas. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:09.465 --> 00:17:10.910 AG: This is Kelsey Nash. 00:17:10.934 --> 00:17:12.968 He and all the other Ninjas at Bonobos 00:17:12.992 --> 00:17:16.180 have something pretty rare in the world of customer service. 00:17:16.204 --> 00:17:17.363 Freedom. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:17.387 --> 00:17:20.524 KN: Every Ninja is empowered to take care of a customer 00:17:20.548 --> 00:17:24.223 in the moment, in whatever way that they think is necessary. 00:17:24.247 --> 00:17:28.078 There's no real sending it up the ladder and down the ladder 00:17:28.102 --> 00:17:29.324 to find a resolution, 00:17:29.348 --> 00:17:31.712 like, "We'll call you back within 24 to 48 hours." 00:17:31.736 --> 00:17:34.666 So every day, we ask Ninjas, 00:17:34.690 --> 00:17:37.053 "What would you want if you were the customer? 00:17:37.077 --> 00:17:38.426 How would you feel?" NOTE Paragraph 00:17:38.450 --> 00:17:40.972 AG: Which can lead to some surprising interactions. 00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:43.426 Like one Kelsey handled himself. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:47.466 KN: There was a guy named Derek, and he wrote in and he said, 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.648 "I had a fire at my house 00:17:49.672 --> 00:17:53.117 and one of my favorite flannel shirts was damaged. 00:17:53.141 --> 00:17:56.418 Do you know of some way to recuperate this or repair it, 00:17:56.442 --> 00:17:59.085 I see you don't really have any on the website anymore." NOTE Paragraph 00:17:59.109 --> 00:18:01.291 AG: Kelsey at Bonobos wrote back right away. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:01.315 --> 00:18:03.189 KN: "We're happy to replace your shirt, 00:18:03.213 --> 00:18:05.412 I'm so sorry about that, is everybody alright?" 00:18:05.436 --> 00:18:07.873 He wrote back and said, "Actually, everybody's fine, 00:18:07.897 --> 00:18:11.684 except our 15-year-old dog was trapped in the house 00:18:11.708 --> 00:18:15.617 and we lost our dog and that's been the only thing." NOTE Paragraph 00:18:15.641 --> 00:18:18.767 AG: Kelsey heard that and went into Ninja mode. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:18.791 --> 00:18:23.029 KN: I got online and I found his dog on his Instagram account. 00:18:23.053 --> 00:18:27.252 So I got a picture of the dog, I commissioned this portrait 00:18:27.276 --> 00:18:31.791 and then I got a couple flannel shirts and I sent it to the guy. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:31.815 --> 00:18:34.061 Derek (on the phone): I'm not an emotional guy, 00:18:34.085 --> 00:18:36.765 but with all that had happened, it was still very fresh. 00:18:36.789 --> 00:18:38.812 I definitely cried when I saw the painting. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:38.836 --> 00:18:41.797 AG: When I heard this story, I had to get Derek on the phone. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:41.821 --> 00:18:44.966 Derek: You know, you're kind of in a desperate situation. 00:18:44.990 --> 00:18:50.053 Just any glimmer of something nice happening to you at that point 00:18:50.077 --> 00:18:51.696 goes a long, long way. 00:18:53.056 --> 00:18:55.872 What they did wasn't necessary, they didn't have to do it, 00:18:55.896 --> 00:18:59.072 other than they thought it was the right thing to do. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:59.096 --> 00:19:03.283 KN: What we pride ourselves on, above everything, is that we're human. 00:19:03.307 --> 00:19:06.934 Like, we deal with every contact on a one-to-one basis: 00:19:06.958 --> 00:19:10.054 as a human answering a phone call, talking to another human, like, 00:19:10.078 --> 00:19:11.529 "Yeah, let's work this out." NOTE Paragraph 00:19:11.553 --> 00:19:13.490 AG: Which is what you need sometimes. 00:19:13.514 --> 00:19:17.156 It clearly meant something to Derek, who recently started a new job. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:17.180 --> 00:19:20.522 Derek: The only picture I've put up on the wall so far is that painting 00:19:20.546 --> 00:19:23.643 and it's right above my desk on the wall above the window. 00:19:24.561 --> 00:19:27.812 When I walk in the door every morning, that's the first thing I see. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:28.542 --> 00:19:30.194 AG: Bonobos makes great clothes, 00:19:30.218 --> 00:19:33.836 but my favorite part is that I don't have to leave my house to get them. 00:19:33.860 --> 00:19:35.304 I hate going shopping 00:19:35.328 --> 00:19:38.185 almost as much as I normally hate calling customer service. 00:19:38.506 --> 00:19:41.164 Ordering on the Bonobos website is super easy. 00:19:41.188 --> 00:19:44.521 They ship fast, and if it doesn't fit, you can always call Kelsey. 00:19:45.045 --> 00:19:46.578 You know, just to talk. 00:19:46.975 --> 00:19:49.673 Try it today at bonobos.com/TED 00:19:49.697 --> 00:19:52.118 and you'll get 20 percent off your first order. 00:19:52.142 --> 00:19:55.753 That's bonobos.com/TED for 20 percent off. NOTE Paragraph 00:19:55.777 --> 00:19:59.912 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:20:03.944 --> 00:20:05.094 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:20:05.118 --> 00:20:08.204 When I was in college, I was a springboard diver. 00:20:08.228 --> 00:20:09.998 I was learning a new dive: 00:20:10.022 --> 00:20:12.021 two and a half flips with a twist. 00:20:13.165 --> 00:20:16.061 When I tried it out in a meet, I thought it went OK. 00:20:16.722 --> 00:20:18.706 Then I saw the judges' scores: 00:20:18.730 --> 00:20:23.164 two, two and a half, and zero point five. 00:20:24.015 --> 00:20:26.744 I don't think I'd ever even seen that score before. 00:20:27.721 --> 00:20:30.308 Anyway, when you're flipping and twisting in mid-air, 00:20:30.332 --> 00:20:32.737 you can't always gauge your own performance. 00:20:33.142 --> 00:20:36.137 And I think big parts of our work lives are like that, too. 00:20:36.451 --> 00:20:38.403 We're so immersed in the situation 00:20:38.427 --> 00:20:40.741 that we can't see ourselves objectively. 00:20:41.498 --> 00:20:45.238 At that diving meet, there were multiple judges who all saw the same flaws. 00:20:45.910 --> 00:20:48.658 When I watched the video afterward, I saw them, too. 00:20:49.006 --> 00:20:51.371 I'd executed a near-perfect belly flop. NOTE Paragraph 00:20:51.395 --> 00:20:53.485 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:20:53.509 --> 00:20:55.042 If you've ever played sports, 00:20:55.066 --> 00:20:57.434 you know the value of reviewing the game tape 00:20:57.458 --> 00:20:59.774 with coaches and colleagues who keep you honest. 00:21:00.109 --> 00:21:02.691 Why don't we do the same thing at work? 00:21:03.847 --> 00:21:05.447 At Bridgewater, they do. 00:21:06.101 --> 00:21:08.617 They're so obsessed with radical transparency 00:21:08.641 --> 00:21:12.441 that they record video or audio of almost every meeting. 00:21:12.800 --> 00:21:15.220 If that sounds a bit like Big Brother is watching, 00:21:15.244 --> 00:21:16.490 well, he is. 00:21:17.292 --> 00:21:20.116 But here's the difference -- everyone is watching. 00:21:20.545 --> 00:21:23.442 They're constantly going back to the tapes to learn. 00:21:23.466 --> 00:21:26.029 This is what radical transparency sounds like. 00:21:26.053 --> 00:21:29.085 Here's Ray Dalio, the founder, talking with a colleague. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:31.577 RD: No, I'm not saying all your advice is bad. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:31.601 --> 00:21:35.045 Colleague: Well, it sounds like you think it's bad. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:35.069 --> 00:21:36.799 RD: Some of it is bad. 00:21:36.823 --> 00:21:38.418 All he's saying to you. 00:21:38.442 --> 00:21:42.084 You need to display that you know that you don't know. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:42.108 --> 00:21:43.767 AG: In too many workplaces, 00:21:43.791 --> 00:21:46.482 people keep those comments behind closed doors. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:46.783 --> 00:21:48.928 Jen Healy: In general hierarchical structures, 00:21:48.952 --> 00:21:51.126 you don't tell people what you actually think. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:53.195 AG: Jen Healy is a manager at Bridgewater. NOTE Paragraph 00:21:53.219 --> 00:21:56.173 JH: You're always managing other people's perceptions of you 00:21:56.197 --> 00:21:59.745 and what they think of you, and trying to butter people up above, 00:21:59.769 --> 00:22:02.673 trying to make sure they don't think anything is going wrong, 00:22:02.697 --> 00:22:04.128 that you have all the answers. NOTE Paragraph 00:22:04.152 --> 00:22:07.764 AG: Radical transparency is designed to solve for a deadly sin of work life: 00:22:07.788 --> 00:22:09.373 office politics. 00:22:09.397 --> 00:22:12.295 In too many places, what happens in the meeting 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.968 doesn't matter nearly as much as secret alliances and conversations 00:22:15.992 --> 00:22:17.160 after the meeting. NOTE Paragraph 00:22:17.184 --> 00:22:19.590 JH: And so, you're able to just say what you think 00:22:19.614 --> 00:22:22.449 and also be held accountable if what you're thinking is bad. NOTE Paragraph 00:22:22.473 --> 00:22:25.141 AG: But for it to work, you need all of your colleagues 00:22:25.165 --> 00:22:27.565 to get past their knee-jerk reactions to criticism. 00:22:27.926 --> 00:22:30.331 Which isn't easy, especially at first. NOTE Paragraph 00:22:30.355 --> 00:22:33.671 Eileen Murray: When I first became acquainted with Bridgewater, 00:22:33.695 --> 00:22:35.125 you know, I wasn't enamored. NOTE Paragraph 00:22:35.149 --> 00:22:36.585 AG: This is Eileen Murray. NOTE Paragraph 00:22:36.609 --> 00:22:39.602 EM: When I first came up to Bridgewater for a meeting, 00:22:39.626 --> 00:22:42.171 I guess it was a management committee meeting 00:22:42.195 --> 00:22:43.594 and someone was being probed, 00:22:43.618 --> 00:22:47.542 basically asking people questions until you get to a logical answer 00:22:47.566 --> 00:22:48.960 as to what might be going on, 00:22:48.984 --> 00:22:51.279 and I was like, "I can't wait to get out of here, 00:22:51.303 --> 00:22:53.262 I think I'm going to put my hair on fire. 00:22:53.286 --> 00:22:54.493 These people are crazy." NOTE Paragraph 00:22:54.517 --> 00:22:57.474 AG: But now, Eileen is one of the company's two CEOs. 00:22:57.498 --> 00:23:01.109 Along the way, she came to hear the criticism as tough love. 00:23:01.133 --> 00:23:03.553 Kind of like what you'd get from your family. NOTE Paragraph 00:23:03.577 --> 00:23:06.061 EM: I have a younger sister who says things to me 00:23:06.085 --> 00:23:08.125 that I sometimes can't believe I tolerate, 00:23:08.149 --> 00:23:11.426 but I tolerate it because she's trying to make me better. 00:23:11.903 --> 00:23:15.856 And so once I understood the intention was to understand what people are like, 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.752 for the purpose of them understanding what they're like, 00:23:18.776 --> 00:23:22.601 so that, you know, you basically are aware of what you do well, 00:23:22.625 --> 00:23:26.276 you're aware of what you don't do well, so you can do things better in life. NOTE Paragraph 00:23:26.300 --> 00:23:28.196 RD: It's a little bit like Navy SEALs. 00:23:28.220 --> 00:23:30.713 Take the Navy SEAL, put them in the cold water. 00:23:30.737 --> 00:23:34.195 If that's a difficult moment, let's practice that, right? NOTE Paragraph 00:23:34.751 --> 00:23:38.966 AG: Every day at the firm is a new encounter with your challenge network. 00:23:38.990 --> 00:23:41.347 You learn to seek out your trusted critics, 00:23:41.371 --> 00:23:43.059 which means you've opted in. 00:23:43.427 --> 00:23:47.156 And little by little, you get more comfortable hearing hard truths. 00:23:47.577 --> 00:23:49.561 Unless you don't. 00:23:50.068 --> 00:23:54.237 About a third of Bridgewater's new hires leave in the first year and a half. 00:23:54.903 --> 00:23:59.418 It was right at that year-and-a-half mark that Kiran Rao, the guy you heard earlier, 00:23:59.442 --> 00:24:02.736 found himself being told he was the company's worst manager 00:24:02.760 --> 00:24:04.847 in front of 200 of his colleagues. 00:24:05.363 --> 00:24:08.336 Kiran might have been prepared, but it still hurt. NOTE Paragraph 00:24:08.672 --> 00:24:13.506 KR: I was probably turning as red as my Indian complexion allows me to. 00:24:13.530 --> 00:24:16.284 And I was describing it as like, basically, 00:24:16.308 --> 00:24:19.061 dressing for the beach one day, 00:24:19.085 --> 00:24:22.149 in flip-flops and your swimwear, 00:24:22.173 --> 00:24:26.299 and you swing your door open and you're in a full-force winter storm. NOTE Paragraph 00:24:26.323 --> 00:24:28.730 AG: The thing you need to understand about Kiran 00:24:28.754 --> 00:24:31.872 is that before Bridgewater, he'd already had a successful career. 00:24:32.238 --> 00:24:33.438 Actually, several. 00:24:33.770 --> 00:24:36.824 He was a doctor and worked with the World Health Organization. 00:24:37.127 --> 00:24:39.093 He was a principal in a consulting firm. 00:24:39.419 --> 00:24:41.728 And he worked at a successful investment firm. 00:24:42.132 --> 00:24:44.599 He'd never failed like this before. 00:24:45.077 --> 00:24:49.236 But what happened next was something I've never seen anywhere else. 00:24:49.553 --> 00:24:52.286 Are you embarrassed, you know, hide from everyone -- 00:24:52.310 --> 00:24:54.482 how did you move forward? NOTE Paragraph 00:24:54.506 --> 00:24:56.744 KR: No, I felt great. NOTE Paragraph 00:24:56.768 --> 00:24:58.228 AG: I'm sorry, what? NOTE Paragraph 00:24:58.252 --> 00:24:59.438 KR: I felt great. NOTE Paragraph 00:24:59.462 --> 00:25:01.478 AG: Do you realize how strange that sounds? NOTE Paragraph 00:25:01.502 --> 00:25:02.653 KR: It does. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:02.677 --> 00:25:05.114 AG: You can hear this in the tape of the meeting, 00:25:05.138 --> 00:25:06.940 right after he found out his ranking. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:06.964 --> 00:25:08.457 Audio clip: I'm Kiran Rao, 00:25:08.481 --> 00:25:11.355 by now probably notorious/famous number one on the list. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:11.379 --> 00:25:13.806 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:25:13.830 --> 00:25:15.220 I think it's a great list. 00:25:15.244 --> 00:25:17.363 And I agree that I'm in that spot. 00:25:17.879 --> 00:25:21.071 This leaves me more energized versus not. 00:25:21.546 --> 00:25:24.575 I get energy from it and I look forward to helping or leaving, 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.101 whichever is the right answer. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:26.546 --> 00:25:28.752 AG: So are you just a glutton for punishment? NOTE Paragraph 00:25:28.776 --> 00:25:29.926 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:25:30.902 --> 00:25:32.434 KR: It's just data. 00:25:32.458 --> 00:25:36.141 It's just data, objective data about what I'm like. 00:25:36.165 --> 00:25:40.244 I would rather know how bad the bad is 00:25:40.268 --> 00:25:41.712 and how good the good is 00:25:41.736 --> 00:25:43.704 so I can do something with it. NOTE Paragraph 00:25:43.728 --> 00:25:47.561 AG: I think a skeptic, particularly one with my training, might say, 00:25:47.585 --> 00:25:50.728 this is just cognitive dissonance reduction. 00:25:50.752 --> 00:25:54.998 So you're like, "This felt really bad, but I decided to stay 00:25:55.022 --> 00:25:58.752 and so it must have taught me something, I must have grown from the experience, 00:25:58.776 --> 00:26:01.236 otherwise, like, how the hell do I justify this?" 00:26:01.260 --> 00:26:04.200 Do you ever wonder whether you're just kind of rationalizing 00:26:04.224 --> 00:26:05.845 the unpleasant experience? NOTE Paragraph 00:26:06.188 --> 00:26:07.434 KR: No. 00:26:07.458 --> 00:26:10.910 But Bridgewater is not about those dramatic moments, right? 00:26:10.934 --> 00:26:15.037 The real challenge for people 00:26:15.061 --> 00:26:17.672 to figure out if they're fit for the culture or not 00:26:17.696 --> 00:26:19.522 is not the dramatic moments, 00:26:19.546 --> 00:26:21.759 it's the daily experience of it. 00:26:22.228 --> 00:26:23.392 Right? 00:26:23.416 --> 00:26:29.192 That drama is incidental to the real work of getting to know yourself. 00:26:30.061 --> 00:26:34.275 I do believe I've experienced deep, fundamental change at Bridgewater. NOTE Paragraph 00:26:34.703 --> 00:26:37.203 AG: It is interesting, because it almost sound like 00:26:37.227 --> 00:26:40.629 you're trying to rewire or override an instinct. NOTE Paragraph 00:26:41.148 --> 00:26:44.179 KR: When I have somebody tell me I did something badly, 00:26:44.203 --> 00:26:45.542 my ego kicks in, right, 00:26:45.566 --> 00:26:49.946 and so my composure starts to become worse and worse. 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.302 "That is so wrong, how can that possibly be true, 00:26:53.326 --> 00:26:57.407 I've done all these things in my life and how could I be that person?" NOTE Paragraph 00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:00.171 AG: That's what I call proving mode. 00:27:00.195 --> 00:27:02.506 It's the primal, emotional reaction. 00:27:02.530 --> 00:27:03.863 The lower-level you. 00:27:04.458 --> 00:27:06.950 But your brain has another higher-level setting. 00:27:06.974 --> 00:27:08.339 Its improving mode. 00:27:08.688 --> 00:27:11.132 That's your inner Olympic diver, 00:27:11.156 --> 00:27:13.341 who wants to know exactly how good you are 00:27:13.365 --> 00:27:15.889 and every single thing you can do to get better. 00:27:16.530 --> 00:27:19.708 Improving mode means you're always a work in progress. 00:27:20.370 --> 00:27:21.895 At Bridgewater, the thinking is 00:27:21.919 --> 00:27:24.275 that if you're exposed to feedback all the time, 00:27:24.299 --> 00:27:26.640 you get better at hearing that improving voice. NOTE Paragraph 00:27:27.188 --> 00:27:29.196 KR: There is a much softer voice. 00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:32.887 The logical person inside me who's saying, 00:27:32.911 --> 00:27:34.712 "Yeah, it's been a rough year. 00:27:35.411 --> 00:27:37.696 It hasn't been such an impactful year. 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.420 Kiran, you aren't really accomplishing your goals. 00:27:40.879 --> 00:27:42.839 That's not so surprising." 00:27:42.863 --> 00:27:45.283 The difference, though, is that those two voices 00:27:45.307 --> 00:27:47.876 are very different in amplitude at that moment. 00:27:48.617 --> 00:27:50.966 The low-level me screaming, 00:27:50.990 --> 00:27:53.093 the upper-level me is whispering. NOTE Paragraph 00:27:53.117 --> 00:27:54.276 AG: Interesting. 00:27:54.300 --> 00:27:57.355 So the two yous will always still be battling at some level. NOTE Paragraph 00:27:57.379 --> 00:27:59.566 KR: I think so. 00:27:59.590 --> 00:28:03.124 And to me, the beauty is I can see that now. 00:28:03.148 --> 00:28:05.212 It used to take me a month or two 00:28:05.236 --> 00:28:08.503 to recognize that and come back to an even keel. 00:28:08.982 --> 00:28:11.570 And with Ray, it takes a microsecond. NOTE Paragraph 00:28:11.594 --> 00:28:14.578 RD: Yes, it's almost exactly that quick. 00:28:14.602 --> 00:28:19.404 I go, "Damn, I wish I would have ..." whatever that thing is, 00:28:19.428 --> 00:28:22.053 and simultaneously, "Where's the lesson?" 00:28:22.077 --> 00:28:24.188 And I think it's a habit. NOTE Paragraph 00:28:24.625 --> 00:28:26.158 AG: OK, that's weird. 00:28:26.545 --> 00:28:29.791 Ray is suggesting he doesn't just feel less pain than the rest of us, 00:28:29.815 --> 00:28:31.553 when he gets criticized. 00:28:31.577 --> 00:28:34.141 He's trained himself so that the pain signal 00:28:34.165 --> 00:28:36.538 is actually followed by a pleasure signal. 00:28:36.911 --> 00:28:39.267 Over years of seeing that negative feedback 00:28:39.291 --> 00:28:41.236 leads to positive outcomes, 00:28:41.260 --> 00:28:44.045 he sort of seems to enjoy hearing it now. NOTE Paragraph 00:28:44.069 --> 00:28:47.696 RD: When you're getting criticism, how do you feel about it? NOTE Paragraph 00:28:48.482 --> 00:28:50.791 AG: So I think overall ... 00:28:51.790 --> 00:28:53.820 I don't think I enjoy it most of the time, 00:28:53.844 --> 00:28:55.061 but I crave it. 00:28:55.085 --> 00:28:58.304 I started teaching and was terrified of public speaking. 00:28:58.783 --> 00:29:00.743 I remember one of the feedback forms said 00:29:00.767 --> 00:29:01.927 that I was so nervous 00:29:01.951 --> 00:29:05.094 that I was causing the students to physically shake in their seats. 00:29:05.118 --> 00:29:08.071 At the time, I was like, "Ugh, I don't want to be that person." 00:29:08.095 --> 00:29:10.823 But I need the feedback in order to not be that person. 00:29:11.514 --> 00:29:14.441 I think it was easier to take because I asked for it. 00:29:14.465 --> 00:29:18.022 I don't think I take criticism so well when somebody just springs it on me 00:29:18.046 --> 00:29:21.046 and I don't feel like I've opted in to it first. NOTE Paragraph 00:29:21.703 --> 00:29:23.180 RD: That's beautiful, right? 00:29:23.204 --> 00:29:24.767 And it's totally understandable 00:29:24.791 --> 00:29:27.918 that when it's sprung on you, it takes you by surprise, 00:29:27.942 --> 00:29:30.212 you know, because it's an amygdala response. 00:29:30.236 --> 00:29:34.034 And the amygdala is the fight or flight and it is a very short-term thing. 00:29:34.371 --> 00:29:37.863 But in some period of time, that's going to fade 00:29:37.887 --> 00:29:40.926 and then if at that moment you reflect, 00:29:40.950 --> 00:29:45.279 pain plus reflection equals progress. 00:29:45.664 --> 00:29:50.545 Because the pain is signaling you that something is wrong; 00:29:50.569 --> 00:29:54.338 the reflection helps to produce that learning. 00:29:54.362 --> 00:29:57.560 And if you do that over a period of time, you can't help but learn. NOTE Paragraph 00:29:57.584 --> 00:29:59.172 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:29:59.196 --> 00:30:00.445 AG: That's the goal. 00:30:00.871 --> 00:30:02.375 But if you're like most people, 00:30:02.399 --> 00:30:05.149 reflection gets hijacked by your inner dictator, 00:30:05.173 --> 00:30:07.778 who immediately goes into denial and attack. 00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:11.301 We need a way to take a more honest look in the mirror. 00:30:11.950 --> 00:30:13.781 In the moment, that's hard to do. 00:30:14.331 --> 00:30:18.164 So in psychology, we have a fun way of making you a little more aware 00:30:18.188 --> 00:30:19.866 of how you appear to others. 00:30:20.901 --> 00:30:25.291 Imagine that you're sitting at a computer to take a timed, multiple-choice test. 00:30:25.315 --> 00:30:28.291 The instructions say to answer question after question 00:30:28.315 --> 00:30:29.849 until a timer goes off. 00:30:30.513 --> 00:30:34.339 But what we haven't told you is that we're recording your keyboard. 00:30:34.363 --> 00:30:37.948 So if you submit an answer after the timer, we know you're cheating. 00:30:39.204 --> 00:30:42.640 It turns out you're significantly less likely to cheat 00:30:42.664 --> 00:30:44.525 if there's a mirror in the room. 00:30:45.203 --> 00:30:48.550 It reminds you to reflect on how your behavior will look to others. NOTE Paragraph 00:30:48.574 --> 00:30:50.060 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:30:50.084 --> 00:30:53.586 At Bridgewater, Ray is constantly trying to look in the mirror, 00:30:53.610 --> 00:30:56.590 so he can see himself the way others see him. 00:30:57.134 --> 00:30:59.553 Psychologists often talk about a second score. 00:30:59.577 --> 00:31:01.998 The idea being that you can't control 00:31:02.022 --> 00:31:04.323 your unprepared, long-winded meeting performance, 00:31:04.347 --> 00:31:06.363 the D-minus is done, that already happened. 00:31:06.387 --> 00:31:08.229 The only thing you can do then is say, 00:31:08.253 --> 00:31:10.268 "Alright, I can't control that first score, 00:31:10.292 --> 00:31:13.680 I can control the second, which is how well did I take the first score." 00:31:13.704 --> 00:31:15.729 Even if I got a D-minus for my performance, 00:31:15.753 --> 00:31:18.887 I can get an A-plus for how I took the feedback of my performance. 00:31:18.911 --> 00:31:21.656 Do you give yourself those kinds of explicit evaluations? NOTE Paragraph 00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:23.141 RD: Everybody gives those. NOTE Paragraph 00:31:23.165 --> 00:31:25.228 AG: If people know they're being evaluated 00:31:25.252 --> 00:31:27.855 on how well they learn and how well they take feedback, 00:31:27.879 --> 00:31:30.188 then there's no stable image to protect anymore. NOTE Paragraph 00:31:30.212 --> 00:31:32.252 RD: Well put, it's a good point. NOTE Paragraph 00:31:32.276 --> 00:31:33.791 AG: A second score. 00:31:33.815 --> 00:31:35.506 Every time I get feedback, 00:31:35.530 --> 00:31:38.930 I rate myself now on how well I took the feedback. 00:31:39.363 --> 00:31:41.110 That's a habit we can all develop. 00:31:41.134 --> 00:31:44.174 When someone gives you feedback, they've already evaluated you. 00:31:44.593 --> 00:31:47.978 So it helps to remind yourself that the main thing they're judging now 00:31:48.002 --> 00:31:50.232 is whether you're open or defensive. 00:31:50.256 --> 00:31:52.764 You don't always realize when you're being defensive. 00:31:52.788 --> 00:31:54.891 So call on your challenge network. 00:31:54.915 --> 00:31:57.077 Ask them to give you a second score, too. 00:31:57.101 --> 00:31:59.712 "How did I come across when you gave me feedback?" 00:32:00.251 --> 00:32:03.410 And then really listen to what they say. 00:32:04.030 --> 00:32:06.492 And respond by saying thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:32:06.516 --> 00:32:08.434 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:32:08.458 --> 00:32:10.228 The best way to prove yourself 00:32:10.252 --> 00:32:13.104 is to show that you're willing to improve yourself. 00:32:13.625 --> 00:32:14.775 Just ask Kiran. NOTE Paragraph 00:32:15.124 --> 00:32:18.609 KR: It's funny, I called my wife on my way home and said this happened, 00:32:18.633 --> 00:32:23.041 they put up the list of the worst managers at Bridgewater and I was number one. 00:32:23.434 --> 00:32:26.582 And I had an amazing, energizing day ... 00:32:27.768 --> 00:32:28.919 And it felt great. 00:32:28.943 --> 00:32:31.673 And she said, "That's wonderful, Kiran, I'm proud of you." NOTE Paragraph 00:32:31.697 --> 00:32:33.426 AG: She said she was proud of you? 00:32:33.450 --> 00:32:35.466 For being the worst manager at Bridgewater? NOTE Paragraph 00:32:35.490 --> 00:32:37.370 KR: No, for looking in the mirror, 00:32:37.394 --> 00:32:39.315 for not cringing from what I look like, 00:32:39.339 --> 00:32:42.302 for being able to see reality for what it is. 00:32:42.934 --> 00:32:44.656 And I probably reached home by then. 00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:46.425 It's a short commute. NOTE Paragraph 00:32:46.449 --> 00:32:53.397 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:32:53.421 --> 00:32:55.747 AG: WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. 00:32:56.294 --> 00:32:58.903 The show is produced by TED with Transmitter Media 00:32:58.927 --> 00:33:00.752 and Pineapple Street Media. 00:33:00.776 --> 00:33:04.378 Our team includes Colin Helms, Gretta Cohn, Gabrielle Lewis, 00:33:04.402 --> 00:33:06.434 Angela Cheng and Janet Lee. 00:33:06.458 --> 00:33:10.166 This episode was produced by Dan O'Donell with help from Julia Alsop. 00:33:10.768 --> 00:33:14.069 Our show is mixed by David Herman with help from Dan Dzula. 00:33:14.093 --> 00:33:16.191 Original music by Hahnsdale Hsu. 00:33:17.037 --> 00:33:18.799 Special thanks to our sponsors: 00:33:18.823 --> 00:33:22.703 Bonobos, Accenture, JP Morgan Chase and Warby Parker. NOTE Paragraph 00:33:23.405 --> 00:33:24.651 Next time on WorkLife, 00:33:24.675 --> 00:33:27.230 we're going inside the writer's room at The Daily Show 00:33:27.254 --> 00:33:30.373 to find out how they do creative work under the gun. NOTE Paragraph 00:33:30.397 --> 00:33:33.889 David Kibukka: The first draft is not meant to be the last draft. NOTE Paragraph 00:33:33.913 --> 00:33:36.614 Dan Amira: Yeah, that's why they call it the first draft. NOTE Paragraph 00:33:36.638 --> 00:33:39.060 DK: That was a big part of the naming process. NOTE Paragraph 00:33:39.574 --> 00:33:41.405 AG: That's next time on WorkLife. 00:33:41.429 --> 00:33:43.239 In the meantime, thanks for listening. 00:33:43.263 --> 00:33:46.134 And if you like what you hear, rate an review the show. 00:33:46.591 --> 00:33:48.053 It helps other people find us. 00:33:48.741 --> 00:33:49.947 See you next week. NOTE Paragraph 00:33:49.971 --> 00:33:53.582 (Music) NOTE Paragraph 00:33:55.403 --> 00:33:58.379 Ray, this has been fun and interesting 00:33:58.403 --> 00:34:00.164 and thought-provoking as always. NOTE Paragraph 00:34:00.188 --> 00:34:02.656 RD: So, now what criticisms do I get? NOTE Paragraph 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.537 AG: Oh, I have to criticize you? NOTE Paragraph 00:34:04.561 --> 00:34:05.783 RD: Yeah. NOTE Paragraph 00:34:05.807 --> 00:34:07.518 AG: Ugh. Do we have time for this? NOTE Paragraph 00:34:07.542 --> 00:34:09.053 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:34:09.077 --> 00:34:12.682 You stay at the level of abstract concepts and ideas 00:34:12.706 --> 00:34:17.349 as opposed to moving down into sort of, the experiences that you've had, 00:34:17.373 --> 00:34:19.508 the stories that you can tell, 00:34:19.532 --> 00:34:23.268 the emotions that are part of that that really bring your ideas to life. 00:34:23.292 --> 00:34:26.759 If you brought more of the concrete, the emotional in 00:34:26.783 --> 00:34:28.610 along with the abstract conceptual, 00:34:28.634 --> 00:34:31.045 I think your communication would be more effective. NOTE Paragraph 00:34:33.134 --> 00:34:34.534 RD: Well, thank you.