1 00:00:01,262 --> 00:00:04,746 When I was 26 years old, barely out of grad school, 2 00:00:04,770 --> 00:00:07,965 I was asked to come teach a half-day class about motivation. 3 00:00:08,460 --> 00:00:10,055 I was excited for it. 4 00:00:10,079 --> 00:00:13,645 And then I found out my audience would be generals and colonels 5 00:00:13,669 --> 00:00:15,069 in the US Air Force. 6 00:00:15,812 --> 00:00:17,956 I was way underqualified. 7 00:00:18,375 --> 00:00:21,105 And I wanted to back out, but it was too late. 8 00:00:21,625 --> 00:00:22,958 So I walked in, 9 00:00:22,982 --> 00:00:26,347 and I was staring at a room full of people twice my age, 10 00:00:26,371 --> 00:00:30,106 wearing full military garb with all their medals on display. 11 00:00:30,807 --> 00:00:34,672 They had nicknames like Gunner, Striker and Stealth. 12 00:00:35,792 --> 00:00:39,155 By the end of the first hour, I felt like I was bombing. 13 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:43,029 And sure enough, in the reviews they wrote after class, 14 00:00:43,053 --> 00:00:44,402 they bombed me. 15 00:00:45,355 --> 00:00:46,696 One wrote, 16 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,652 "There was more quality information in the audience than on the podium." 17 00:00:51,978 --> 00:00:53,410 Another said, 18 00:00:53,434 --> 00:00:56,418 "I gained very little from the session, 19 00:00:56,442 --> 00:00:59,577 but I trust the instructor did gain useful insight." 20 00:00:59,601 --> 00:01:02,049 (Music) 21 00:01:02,073 --> 00:01:04,349 It felt like a punch in the stomach. 22 00:01:05,010 --> 00:01:07,211 And I couldn't get it out of my head. 23 00:01:07,647 --> 00:01:12,236 So I did what any self-respecting organizational psychologist would do: 24 00:01:12,260 --> 00:01:16,102 I started studying why it's often soul-crushing to receive criticism. 25 00:01:16,656 --> 00:01:19,631 And whether we could actually learn to like it. 26 00:01:19,655 --> 00:01:26,044 (Music) 27 00:01:26,068 --> 00:01:27,537 I'm Adam Grant. 28 00:01:27,561 --> 00:01:29,990 This is WorkLife, my TED podcast. 29 00:01:30,344 --> 00:01:32,516 I study how to make work not suck. 30 00:01:32,950 --> 00:01:36,450 Organizations like Google, the NBA and the Gates Foundation 31 00:01:36,474 --> 00:01:38,958 have invited me in to help make jobs more meaningful, 32 00:01:38,982 --> 00:01:41,783 teams more creative and cultures more collaborative. 33 00:01:41,807 --> 00:01:46,553 In this show, I'm inviting myself in to some truly unusual places, 34 00:01:46,577 --> 00:01:50,626 where they've mastered something I wish everyone else knew about work. 35 00:01:51,267 --> 00:01:54,410 Today, the art and science of criticism. 36 00:01:55,664 --> 00:01:58,395 Thanks to Bonobos for sponsoring this episode. 37 00:01:58,419 --> 00:02:02,093 (Music) 38 00:02:02,117 --> 00:02:04,310 Adam Grant: Hey, Kiran. Kiran Rao: Hello, Adam. 39 00:02:04,334 --> 00:02:06,308 AG: How are you? KR: Doing well, and you? 40 00:02:06,332 --> 00:02:07,499 AG: Good. 41 00:02:07,523 --> 00:02:08,722 This is Kiran Rao. 42 00:02:08,746 --> 00:02:11,093 He used to be a manager at a financial company. 43 00:02:11,117 --> 00:02:14,839 Like most managers, he spent a ton of time in meetings. 44 00:02:14,863 --> 00:02:17,537 And most of them were pretty run-of-the-mill. 45 00:02:17,561 --> 00:02:20,513 But there's one meeting that Kiran will never forget. 46 00:02:21,307 --> 00:02:24,284 Here's Kiran, breaking down a recording of that meeting for us. 47 00:02:24,308 --> 00:02:26,609 KR: We were in this large white tent, 48 00:02:26,633 --> 00:02:30,230 200 people sitting around, the top 200 or 300 managers. 49 00:02:30,254 --> 00:02:32,207 Audio clip: Man: So the next two sections 50 00:02:32,231 --> 00:02:34,315 are going to be about practical application. 51 00:02:34,339 --> 00:02:37,086 KR: We'd been talking about multiple strategic points, 52 00:02:37,110 --> 00:02:38,315 and up comes a chart -- 53 00:02:38,339 --> 00:02:39,864 Audio clip: Man: This is a list 54 00:02:39,888 --> 00:02:43,622 of forced-ranking the people in this room by performance. 55 00:02:43,646 --> 00:02:46,371 KR: Which was labeled "the worst managers." 56 00:02:46,395 --> 00:02:48,585 Audio clip: Man: So these are people we love. 57 00:02:48,609 --> 00:02:52,591 Some of the people in this room, these names, probably shouldn't be here. 58 00:02:53,071 --> 00:02:55,666 KR: And I was number one on the list. 59 00:02:55,690 --> 00:02:58,214 Audio clip: Man: I look at this name -- I hired Kiran. 60 00:02:58,238 --> 00:03:01,832 Apparently in his first couple years, he's not doing that well. 61 00:03:01,856 --> 00:03:05,504 AG: Wow. So you're totally caught by surprise. 62 00:03:05,528 --> 00:03:08,078 You're staring at a room of 200 people, 63 00:03:08,102 --> 00:03:10,975 and being told you are the single worst manager in that room. 64 00:03:10,999 --> 00:03:12,286 KR: That's right. 65 00:03:12,310 --> 00:03:13,460 AG: What was that like? 66 00:03:14,239 --> 00:03:15,389 KR: Um ... 67 00:03:17,028 --> 00:03:18,441 It was intense. 68 00:03:18,465 --> 00:03:23,108 (Music) 69 00:03:23,132 --> 00:03:25,243 AG: We'll hear more from Kiran later. 70 00:03:25,267 --> 00:03:28,874 But right now, I want you to imagine you're Kiran, right in that moment. 71 00:03:29,299 --> 00:03:31,624 Think about what happens when you get criticized. 72 00:03:32,141 --> 00:03:36,346 Like, physically: your shoulders tighten, your breath gets shallower. 73 00:03:36,887 --> 00:03:39,204 Negative feedback sets off alarm bells. 74 00:03:39,228 --> 00:03:41,277 It actually touches a nerve in your body. 75 00:03:41,982 --> 00:03:43,450 And psychologically? 76 00:03:43,474 --> 00:03:44,847 Your mind races. 77 00:03:45,379 --> 00:03:48,211 You start to put up shields and mount a counterattack. 78 00:03:49,085 --> 00:03:51,419 If you were a peacock, you'd strut. 79 00:03:51,728 --> 00:03:54,371 If you were an ape, you'd beat your chest. 80 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,268 But humans have another kind of reaction. 81 00:03:57,736 --> 00:03:59,459 There was a study a few decades ago 82 00:03:59,483 --> 00:04:02,761 that said our ego can get so defensive in these situations 83 00:04:02,785 --> 00:04:06,109 that it becomes its own little totalitarian regime. 84 00:04:06,133 --> 00:04:09,204 It starts to control the flow of information to our brains 85 00:04:09,228 --> 00:04:11,251 the way a dictator controls the media. 86 00:04:11,902 --> 00:04:13,062 Think about that. 87 00:04:13,086 --> 00:04:15,623 Your own ego is censoring what you hear. 88 00:04:16,298 --> 00:04:19,833 But if we never hear criticism, we'll never improve. 89 00:04:20,418 --> 00:04:21,950 What would it be like in a place 90 00:04:21,974 --> 00:04:24,252 where people constantly criticize each other -- 91 00:04:24,276 --> 00:04:26,950 and crave that kind of feedback for themselves 92 00:04:26,974 --> 00:04:29,094 in order to make everyone better? 93 00:04:29,450 --> 00:04:31,593 I've worked with hundreds of organizations 94 00:04:31,617 --> 00:04:34,371 and I found only one where that's truly the norm. 95 00:04:34,395 --> 00:04:37,695 Ray Dalio: You could say to me, "Hey, jerk, you're being an asshole." 96 00:04:37,719 --> 00:04:39,869 And then we'll say, OK, am I being an asshole? 97 00:04:39,893 --> 00:04:41,869 AG: This is the guy in charge. 98 00:04:41,893 --> 00:04:43,052 His name is Ray. 99 00:04:43,076 --> 00:04:45,273 RD: One of the biggest tragedies of mankind 100 00:04:45,297 --> 00:04:48,759 is people holding in their opinions in their heads, 101 00:04:48,783 --> 00:04:52,109 and it's such a tragedy because it could so easily be fixed 102 00:04:52,133 --> 00:04:53,783 if they put them out there 103 00:04:53,807 --> 00:04:55,958 and stress-tested them in the right way. 104 00:04:55,982 --> 00:04:59,593 They would so raise their probability of making a better decision. 105 00:05:00,069 --> 00:05:03,483 Everybody's giving high fives, they're all smiling at each other. 106 00:05:03,507 --> 00:05:06,490 But they're not dealing with the things they need to deal with. 107 00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:09,649 AG: It's incredibly fun to think about, like, 108 00:05:09,673 --> 00:05:11,649 you can go around calling people assholes 109 00:05:11,673 --> 00:05:14,553 and their default response is supposed to be, "Tell me more." 110 00:05:14,577 --> 00:05:17,252 Is that really how you want people to react to criticism? 111 00:05:17,276 --> 00:05:20,920 RD: Well, I want to put that on the table together and look at that, 112 00:05:20,944 --> 00:05:24,783 because maybe I'm the one who's being a jerk or misunderstanding. 113 00:05:24,807 --> 00:05:26,371 AG: In the mid 1970s, 114 00:05:26,395 --> 00:05:29,959 Ray Dalio started a financial firm called Bridgewater Associates. 115 00:05:30,323 --> 00:05:33,582 At first, he was working out of a barn with his friends. 116 00:05:33,974 --> 00:05:36,641 He got really successful really quickly. 117 00:05:37,141 --> 00:05:38,648 And then he got cocky. 118 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:40,799 He placed a bad bet. 119 00:05:40,823 --> 00:05:42,188 It tanked his firm. 120 00:05:42,212 --> 00:05:43,776 He had to fire his friends. 121 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,347 RD: And I was so broke 122 00:05:46,371 --> 00:05:49,569 that I had to borrow 4,000 dollars from my dad 123 00:05:49,593 --> 00:05:51,319 to help pay for my family bills. 124 00:05:51,728 --> 00:05:54,879 And that was extremely painful. 125 00:05:54,903 --> 00:05:56,969 It turned out to be terrific. 126 00:05:57,577 --> 00:06:01,125 AG: I'm sorry, you just said it was terrific that is was so painful? 127 00:06:01,149 --> 00:06:04,092 Because normal human beings don't feel that way. 128 00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:06,403 RD: I mean, like, I was absolutely miserable. 129 00:06:06,427 --> 00:06:10,652 But it gave me the humility that I needed to deal with my audacity. 130 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:14,291 It made me want to find the smartest people I could find 131 00:06:14,315 --> 00:06:15,782 who disagreed with me. 132 00:06:16,085 --> 00:06:17,627 AG: Ray realized that he crashed 133 00:06:17,651 --> 00:06:20,064 because there wasn't anyone around to check his ego 134 00:06:20,088 --> 00:06:21,618 when he was on top of the world. 135 00:06:21,642 --> 00:06:25,093 He only listened to himself or people who constantly said yes. 136 00:06:25,117 --> 00:06:27,204 Now, he was on his own. 137 00:06:27,593 --> 00:06:32,243 RD: So that experience was the one that really kind of, drove it home for me. 138 00:06:32,544 --> 00:06:35,783 And I say, if you don't look back on yourself and think, 139 00:06:35,807 --> 00:06:38,791 "Wow, how stupid I was a year or two ago," 140 00:06:38,815 --> 00:06:41,712 then you must not have learned much in the last year or two. 141 00:06:41,736 --> 00:06:44,320 AG: Ray decided that the next version of his company 142 00:06:44,344 --> 00:06:46,237 would have a different kind of culture 143 00:06:46,261 --> 00:06:49,076 where everyone would be brutally honest with each other. 144 00:06:49,100 --> 00:06:51,434 And that's what Bridgewater does today. 145 00:06:51,458 --> 00:06:53,725 Ray calls it radical transparency. 146 00:06:54,204 --> 00:06:57,815 Every criticism, every opinion, out in the open. 147 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,902 You're comfortable just putting that out there, transparently? 148 00:07:00,926 --> 00:07:04,585 RD: Why shouldn't we be? 149 00:07:04,609 --> 00:07:09,998 AG: Embarrassment, pain, you know, ridicule, cruelty. 150 00:07:10,022 --> 00:07:13,117 RD: OK, but it's not those kinds of things, right? 151 00:07:13,141 --> 00:07:15,712 We recognize that it can be a difficult moment. 152 00:07:15,736 --> 00:07:20,323 Before people come here, we ask them, do they want to do that. 153 00:07:20,347 --> 00:07:21,656 Isn't this good, 154 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,799 to make them partners in that self-discovery of what is actually true? 155 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:29,161 AG: Bridgewater Associates is now considered 156 00:07:29,185 --> 00:07:31,248 the most successful hedge fund in the world. 157 00:07:31,867 --> 00:07:35,306 And Ray believes the culture is the driving force behind their success. 158 00:07:35,719 --> 00:07:38,749 They manage 160 billion dollars in assets, 159 00:07:38,773 --> 00:07:41,315 and Ray has become one of the richest people on earth. 160 00:07:42,165 --> 00:07:43,649 If you can't tell by now, 161 00:07:43,673 --> 00:07:47,255 Bridgewater is also one of the strangest workplaces I've ever seen. 162 00:07:47,815 --> 00:07:50,513 Feedback is only one piece of what makes them different. 163 00:07:50,883 --> 00:07:53,244 I'm not here to analyze all their practices, 164 00:07:53,268 --> 00:07:56,306 dissect their performance or suggest you copy them. 165 00:07:56,728 --> 00:07:59,545 But I do believe that if we want to get better at something, 166 00:07:59,569 --> 00:08:01,617 we should go and learn from the extreme. 167 00:08:01,641 --> 00:08:04,578 You know, the same way you might try and pick up a workout tip 168 00:08:04,602 --> 00:08:05,942 from an Olympic athlete. 169 00:08:05,966 --> 00:08:08,682 Bridgewater goes to the extreme on criticism. 170 00:08:09,165 --> 00:08:12,173 They think you can learn to dish it out and even crave it. 171 00:08:13,196 --> 00:08:16,474 Over the years, they've had some high-profile senior leaders. 172 00:08:16,498 --> 00:08:19,402 Including James Comey, the recent FBI director. 173 00:08:20,061 --> 00:08:23,465 He even talked about Bridgewater at his Senate confirmation hearing. 174 00:08:23,489 --> 00:08:25,117 James Comey: I went to Bridgewater 175 00:08:25,141 --> 00:08:27,475 in part because of that culture of transparency -- 176 00:08:27,499 --> 00:08:30,268 it's something that's long been part of me. 177 00:08:30,292 --> 00:08:32,417 AG: Today, about 2,000 people work there 178 00:08:32,441 --> 00:08:36,854 and every single one of them is expected to put criticism out in the open. 179 00:08:36,878 --> 00:08:39,821 Even if the billionaire founder is the target. 180 00:08:40,386 --> 00:08:43,918 Here's an email Ray got one day from a colleague named Jim Haskel. 181 00:08:44,347 --> 00:08:47,806 "Ray, you deserve a 'D-minus' for your performance today. 182 00:08:48,323 --> 00:08:50,378 You rambled for 50 minutes. 183 00:08:50,768 --> 00:08:54,228 It was obvious to all of us that you did not prepare at all. 184 00:08:54,553 --> 00:08:57,950 Today was really bad, we can't let this happen again." 185 00:08:58,855 --> 00:09:03,069 When Jim sent his scathing review, Ray decided to get a few more opinions. 186 00:09:03,565 --> 00:09:06,192 He asked his colleagues to rate his performance that day 187 00:09:06,216 --> 00:09:07,945 on a scale from A to F. 188 00:09:08,398 --> 00:09:11,795 Then he shared the feedback with everyone else. 189 00:09:11,819 --> 00:09:15,563 And let me tell you, Ray did not get any As for that meeting. 190 00:09:15,587 --> 00:09:16,744 RD: I sucked! 191 00:09:16,768 --> 00:09:18,967 AG: I think a lot of people in that situation 192 00:09:18,991 --> 00:09:21,491 would have just sorted the conversation out with Jim. 193 00:09:21,515 --> 00:09:23,213 And you replied and you said, 194 00:09:23,237 --> 00:09:25,912 "Hey, everybody else in the meeting, I'm looping you in." 195 00:09:25,936 --> 00:09:27,268 RD: No, the whole company. 196 00:09:27,292 --> 00:09:29,498 AG: That went to the whole company? RD: Yeah. 197 00:09:29,522 --> 00:09:31,347 AG: A to F? RD: It's very important. 198 00:09:31,664 --> 00:09:34,577 AG: This kind of thing is happening constantly at Bridgewater. 199 00:09:34,601 --> 00:09:37,190 What would you do if someone gave you a D-minus? 200 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,934 There are actual studies showing that when coworkers criticize us, 201 00:09:40,958 --> 00:09:43,276 we tend to drop them from our lives. 202 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:45,459 Or at least avoid them at all costs. 203 00:09:46,022 --> 00:09:48,198 Instead, we go straight to our cheerleaders 204 00:09:48,222 --> 00:09:50,156 to complain and get reassurance. 205 00:09:50,553 --> 00:09:53,807 Our friends, our favorite like-minded colleagues, mom. 206 00:09:54,395 --> 00:09:55,968 That's our support network. 207 00:09:55,992 --> 00:09:57,561 (Music) 208 00:09:57,585 --> 00:10:00,188 But there's another kind of network that we all need: 209 00:10:00,212 --> 00:10:01,546 a challenge network. 210 00:10:02,331 --> 00:10:06,347 A challenge network is the group of people that you trust to push you to get better. 211 00:10:06,934 --> 00:10:10,291 They tell you the stuff you don't want to hear but need to hear. 212 00:10:10,688 --> 00:10:13,672 And Bridgewater is one big challenge network. 213 00:10:13,696 --> 00:10:15,950 RD: I want Jim's critiques. 214 00:10:16,371 --> 00:10:18,807 Because I might be inclined to ramble, 215 00:10:18,831 --> 00:10:22,149 and because I might be inclined to not be prepared. 216 00:10:22,173 --> 00:10:25,601 AG: So Ray made a promise to Jim: he'd do better the next time. 217 00:10:25,625 --> 00:10:28,188 RD: He said, "Listen, I can't trust you to do that. 218 00:10:28,212 --> 00:10:30,918 And I say, "Great, I can't trust me to do that, either." 219 00:10:31,307 --> 00:10:34,261 And so as a regular protocol, he'll call me up, 220 00:10:34,285 --> 00:10:36,915 because he understands that it works well for both of us 221 00:10:36,939 --> 00:10:38,537 and works well for the company. 222 00:10:38,561 --> 00:10:42,633 AG: A challenge network can only help you if you're ready to listen. 223 00:10:42,657 --> 00:10:46,815 RD: It's particularly important for me to be showing anybody what I'm doing, 224 00:10:46,839 --> 00:10:48,791 including my failures, my successes. 225 00:10:48,815 --> 00:10:51,370 Yes. Why would you not do that? 226 00:10:52,125 --> 00:10:54,291 AG: Well, because you're afraid of the answer. 227 00:10:54,315 --> 00:10:55,847 RD: What are you afraid of? 228 00:10:55,871 --> 00:10:59,836 AG: Of the emperor being discovered to have no clothes. 229 00:11:00,450 --> 00:11:04,934 RD: If your objective is to be as good as you can possibly be, 230 00:11:04,958 --> 00:11:07,117 then you're going to want that. 231 00:11:07,141 --> 00:11:10,276 AG: I think a lot of people would rather maintain 232 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:13,537 at least the illusion of a decent image than to actually improve. 233 00:11:13,561 --> 00:11:16,020 RD: But then they care more about their image 234 00:11:16,044 --> 00:11:17,977 than they care about results. 235 00:11:18,685 --> 00:11:20,851 AG: And you're not willing to tolerate that. 236 00:11:21,812 --> 00:11:24,256 RD: You know, life's much better with good results. 237 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,430 (Laughter) 238 00:11:26,415 --> 00:11:29,101 AG: The idea of criticizing each other this openly 239 00:11:29,125 --> 00:11:30,658 might sound terrifying. 240 00:11:31,117 --> 00:11:32,267 I get that. 241 00:11:32,624 --> 00:11:35,649 In lots of workplaces, it would be painful at best 242 00:11:35,673 --> 00:11:37,073 and abusive at worst. 243 00:11:37,474 --> 00:11:40,140 There's a bunch of work by economists 244 00:11:40,164 --> 00:11:43,449 showing that rankings generally demotivate people. 245 00:11:43,473 --> 00:11:45,371 People, even at the top, are like, 246 00:11:45,395 --> 00:11:47,251 "I expected to be further at the top." 247 00:11:47,275 --> 00:11:49,896 And everybody at the bottom doesn't enjoy the experience 248 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,928 of comparing themselves negatively to everyone else around them. 249 00:11:52,952 --> 00:11:59,102 RD: In normal companies, I suspect that they don't prepare people, 250 00:11:59,126 --> 00:12:02,254 agree on it, say, "Is this a good thing?" 251 00:12:02,634 --> 00:12:04,569 (Music) 252 00:12:04,593 --> 00:12:06,474 AG: What about your workplace? 253 00:12:06,498 --> 00:12:08,636 What would happen if you just decided one day 254 00:12:08,660 --> 00:12:10,561 to be radically transparent? 255 00:12:10,585 --> 00:12:12,185 It might not go so well. 256 00:12:12,847 --> 00:12:15,728 AJ: I was working at "Esquire" magazine at the time, 257 00:12:15,752 --> 00:12:19,466 and I said to my editor in a meeting at one point, 258 00:12:19,490 --> 00:12:22,521 "You know what, I really would rather be at the 'New Yorker,' 259 00:12:22,545 --> 00:12:25,239 and if they offered me a job, I would take that." 260 00:12:25,744 --> 00:12:29,403 And he was stone-faced, he did not like it. 261 00:12:29,427 --> 00:12:30,625 AG: That's AJ Jacobs, 262 00:12:30,649 --> 00:12:33,804 a writer who thinks it's fun to live his life as an experiment. 263 00:12:34,299 --> 00:12:35,871 For a story he was working on, 264 00:12:35,895 --> 00:12:39,627 AJ committed to being 100 percent transparent for a few weeks. 265 00:12:39,651 --> 00:12:42,714 AJ: If you hate your boss, tell your boss, "I hate you." 266 00:12:42,738 --> 00:12:46,055 AG: AJ did that with everyone he talked to. 267 00:12:46,079 --> 00:12:51,442 His mother-in-law, elderly neighbors, his kids, his wife's friends. 268 00:12:51,466 --> 00:12:53,625 AJ: I was out with my wife at a restaurant, 269 00:12:53,649 --> 00:12:57,140 and we saw some friends of hers that she hadn't seen since college. 270 00:12:57,465 --> 00:12:59,847 And they were all excited to see her and they said, 271 00:12:59,871 --> 00:13:03,085 "Oh, we should all get together and have a play date with our kids." 272 00:13:03,109 --> 00:13:05,018 And I had to say what was on my mind, 273 00:13:05,042 --> 00:13:07,426 which was, "You guys seem like nice people, 274 00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:09,960 but I really don't want to see you again." 275 00:13:10,355 --> 00:13:12,664 AG: (Laughter) Oh, no! AJ: Oh, yeah. 276 00:13:12,688 --> 00:13:16,323 They were offended, rightly, and my wife was furious. 277 00:13:16,704 --> 00:13:18,331 So it was a disaster. 278 00:13:18,355 --> 00:13:20,244 I mean, we never did see them again 279 00:13:20,268 --> 00:13:23,014 so it is efficient, it was effective. 280 00:13:23,038 --> 00:13:27,633 Kim Scott: (Laughter) So in my parlance, 281 00:13:27,657 --> 00:13:30,816 saying something like that is not radical candor, 282 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,236 it's obnoxious aggression. 283 00:13:32,260 --> 00:13:35,735 AG: Kim Scott is an executive coach in Silicon Valley. 284 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:37,720 She works with CEOs and managers 285 00:13:37,744 --> 00:13:40,426 on being radically candid in their feedback. 286 00:13:40,450 --> 00:13:43,577 KS: Be a kick-ass boss without loosing your humanity. 287 00:13:43,601 --> 00:13:47,124 AG: I asked Kim how we can all get better at providing criticism. 288 00:13:47,148 --> 00:13:48,329 And guess what. 289 00:13:48,353 --> 00:13:52,228 It's about just blurting out whatever pops into your head, like AJ did. 290 00:13:52,252 --> 00:13:54,273 KS: The idea of radical candor 291 00:13:54,297 --> 00:13:57,919 is that you're caring personally about the other person 292 00:13:57,943 --> 00:14:00,767 at the same time that you're challenging them directly. 293 00:14:01,188 --> 00:14:05,013 AG: I guess then, how do I get comfortable you know, challenging directly? 294 00:14:05,331 --> 00:14:08,644 When I do challenge, how do I make sure that I show care? 295 00:14:09,498 --> 00:14:11,404 KS: My biggest piece of advice 296 00:14:11,428 --> 00:14:14,380 is eliminate the phrase "Don't take it personally" 297 00:14:14,404 --> 00:14:15,950 from your vocabulary. 298 00:14:15,974 --> 00:14:19,713 It's OK if somebody's getting upset or having an emotional reaction, 299 00:14:19,737 --> 00:14:20,998 it's normal. 300 00:14:21,022 --> 00:14:22,339 It is inevitable. 301 00:14:22,847 --> 00:14:26,486 What you want to do is you want to react with compassion to them. 302 00:14:26,510 --> 00:14:31,342 If I had emotional Novocaine, I would give it to you. 303 00:14:32,073 --> 00:14:35,284 AG: I have seen so many people say, 304 00:14:35,308 --> 00:14:38,450 "Alright, I'm really uncomfortable challenging directly, 305 00:14:38,474 --> 00:14:41,325 and so one of the ways I'll show that I care personally is, 306 00:14:41,349 --> 00:14:43,657 I'm going to deliver a feedback sandwich: 307 00:14:43,681 --> 00:14:47,252 you know, open up with some praise, and then criticism comes in the middle, 308 00:14:47,276 --> 00:14:49,347 and then a slice of praise again, 309 00:14:49,371 --> 00:14:51,656 so we start and end on a high note. 310 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,839 And the research I've read on this is pretty clear in saying 311 00:14:54,863 --> 00:14:56,978 this is a bad idea, for two reasons. 312 00:14:57,002 --> 00:14:59,004 One, when you lead with praise, 313 00:14:59,028 --> 00:15:01,276 they're just waiting for the other shoe to drop, 314 00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,180 and it seems insincere. 315 00:15:03,649 --> 00:15:06,483 And two is that people often tune out what's in the middle. 316 00:15:07,013 --> 00:15:10,616 And so, what's your preferred alternative to the feedback sandwich? 317 00:15:10,973 --> 00:15:13,545 KS: I agree, nobody really likes a shit sandwich. 318 00:15:13,569 --> 00:15:17,529 And so it's important for both praise and criticism, 319 00:15:17,553 --> 00:15:19,458 but especially for criticism, 320 00:15:19,482 --> 00:15:22,172 is to go in being humble. 321 00:15:22,498 --> 00:15:25,562 You may be wrong in what you're saying, 322 00:15:25,586 --> 00:15:26,841 and that's OK. 323 00:15:27,235 --> 00:15:31,522 One of the most important things you can do when offering criticism 324 00:15:31,546 --> 00:15:33,943 is to state your intention to be helpful. 325 00:15:33,967 --> 00:15:35,886 (Music) 326 00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:37,950 AG: There's evidence to back this up. 327 00:15:37,974 --> 00:15:40,283 It's something I heard a lot at Bridgewater, too. 328 00:15:40,307 --> 00:15:43,541 It's easier to take criticism when you know it's meant to help you. 329 00:15:43,983 --> 00:15:46,181 From the outside, it might sound harsh. 330 00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:48,356 But they think it's good for them. 331 00:15:48,380 --> 00:15:50,928 KS: If you know that it's healthy, 332 00:15:50,952 --> 00:15:53,776 and you've experienced firsthand the benefit, 333 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,340 you're going to keep seeking it, 334 00:15:55,364 --> 00:15:58,093 just like, it still hurts sometimes to go running, 335 00:15:58,117 --> 00:16:02,839 but I know how important that is to my well-being, so I'll keep doing it, 336 00:16:02,863 --> 00:16:06,633 even though it's always kind of an effort to get myself out the door. 337 00:16:06,657 --> 00:16:09,117 I think it's the same with criticism. 338 00:16:09,141 --> 00:16:11,339 (Music) 339 00:16:11,363 --> 00:16:13,134 AG: More on that after the break. 340 00:16:13,780 --> 00:16:15,871 This is going to be a different kind of ad. 341 00:16:15,895 --> 00:16:18,426 In the spirit of exploring creative ideas at work, 342 00:16:18,450 --> 00:16:21,270 we're going to take you inside Bonobos, our sponsor. 343 00:16:21,294 --> 00:16:28,294 (Music) 344 00:16:32,911 --> 00:16:35,374 (Music) 345 00:16:35,398 --> 00:16:38,891 Like everyone else on earth, I hate calling customer service. 346 00:16:39,474 --> 00:16:41,268 It's hard to get a human on the line, 347 00:16:41,292 --> 00:16:44,092 and if you do, they're usually stuck reading from a script. 348 00:16:44,442 --> 00:16:47,268 If you want to get anywhere, you have to ask for the manager 349 00:16:47,292 --> 00:16:48,825 over and over and over. 350 00:16:49,395 --> 00:16:51,689 But that's not how things work at Bonobos. 351 00:16:52,058 --> 00:16:55,910 They make great fitting men's clothes, and if you call them with a problem, 352 00:16:55,934 --> 00:16:58,690 you get a real person empowered to actually help. 353 00:16:59,172 --> 00:17:01,180 Bonobos calls them Ninjas. 354 00:17:01,204 --> 00:17:06,031 Kelsey Nash: My actual title is Creative Customer Engagement Lead. 355 00:17:06,055 --> 00:17:09,441 I'm on the management team of the Ninjas. 356 00:17:09,465 --> 00:17:10,910 AG: This is Kelsey Nash. 357 00:17:10,934 --> 00:17:12,968 He and all the other Ninjas at Bonobos 358 00:17:12,992 --> 00:17:16,180 have something pretty rare in the world of customer service. 359 00:17:16,204 --> 00:17:17,363 Freedom. 360 00:17:17,387 --> 00:17:20,524 KN: Every Ninja is empowered to take care of a customer 361 00:17:20,548 --> 00:17:24,223 in the moment, in whatever way that they think is necessary. 362 00:17:24,247 --> 00:17:28,078 There's no real sending it up the ladder and down the ladder 363 00:17:28,102 --> 00:17:29,324 to find a resolution, 364 00:17:29,348 --> 00:17:31,712 like, "We'll call you back within 24 to 48 hours." 365 00:17:31,736 --> 00:17:34,666 So every day, we ask Ninjas, 366 00:17:34,690 --> 00:17:37,053 "What would you want if you were the customer? 367 00:17:37,077 --> 00:17:38,426 How would you feel?" 368 00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:40,972 AG: Which can lead to some surprising interactions. 369 00:17:41,339 --> 00:17:43,426 Like one Kelsey handled himself. 370 00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:47,466 KN: There was a guy named Derek, and he wrote in and he said, 371 00:17:47,490 --> 00:17:49,648 "I had a fire at my house 372 00:17:49,672 --> 00:17:53,117 and one of my favorite flannel shirts was damaged. 373 00:17:53,141 --> 00:17:56,418 Do you know of some way to recuperate this or repair it, 374 00:17:56,442 --> 00:17:59,085 I see you don't really have any on the website anymore." 375 00:17:59,109 --> 00:18:01,291 AG: Kelsey at Bonobos wrote back right away. 376 00:18:01,315 --> 00:18:03,189 KN: "We're happy to replace your shirt, 377 00:18:03,213 --> 00:18:05,412 I'm so sorry about that, is everybody alright?" 378 00:18:05,436 --> 00:18:07,873 He wrote back and said, "Actually, everybody's fine, 379 00:18:07,897 --> 00:18:11,684 except our 15-year-old dog was trapped in the house 380 00:18:11,708 --> 00:18:15,617 and we lost our dog and that's been the only thing." 381 00:18:15,641 --> 00:18:18,767 AG: Kelsey heard that and went into Ninja mode. 382 00:18:18,791 --> 00:18:23,029 KN: I got online and I found his dog on his Instagram account. 383 00:18:23,053 --> 00:18:27,252 So I got a picture of the dog, I commissioned this portrait 384 00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:31,791 and then I got a couple flannel shirts and I sent it to the guy. 385 00:18:31,815 --> 00:18:34,061 Derek (on the phone): I'm not an emotional guy, 386 00:18:34,085 --> 00:18:36,765 but with all that had happened, it was still very fresh. 387 00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:38,812 I definitely cried when I saw the painting. 388 00:18:38,836 --> 00:18:41,797 AG: When I heard this story, I had to get Derek on the phone. 389 00:18:41,821 --> 00:18:44,966 Derek: You know, you're kind of in a desperate situation. 390 00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:50,053 Just any glimmer of something nice happening to you at that point 391 00:18:50,077 --> 00:18:51,696 goes a long, long way. 392 00:18:53,056 --> 00:18:55,872 What they did wasn't necessary, they didn't have to do it, 393 00:18:55,896 --> 00:18:59,072 other than they thought it was the right thing to do. 394 00:18:59,096 --> 00:19:03,283 KN: What we pride ourselves on, above everything, is that we're human. 395 00:19:03,307 --> 00:19:06,934 Like, we deal with every contact on a one-to-one basis: 396 00:19:06,958 --> 00:19:10,054 as a human answering a phone call, talking to another human, like, 397 00:19:10,078 --> 00:19:11,529 "Yeah, let's work this out." 398 00:19:11,553 --> 00:19:13,490 AG: Which is what you need sometimes. 399 00:19:13,514 --> 00:19:17,156 It clearly meant something to Derek, who recently started a new job. 400 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:20,522 Derek: The only picture I've put up on the wall so far is that painting 401 00:19:20,546 --> 00:19:23,643 and it's right above my desk on the wall above the window. 402 00:19:24,561 --> 00:19:27,812 When I walk in the door every morning, that's the first thing I see. 403 00:19:28,542 --> 00:19:30,194 AG: Bonobos makes great clothes, 404 00:19:30,218 --> 00:19:33,836 but my favorite part is that I don't have to leave my house to get them. 405 00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:35,304 I hate going shopping 406 00:19:35,328 --> 00:19:38,185 almost as much as I normally hate calling customer service. 407 00:19:38,506 --> 00:19:41,164 Ordering on the Bonobos website is super easy. 408 00:19:41,188 --> 00:19:44,521 They ship fast, and if it doesn't fit, you can always call Kelsey. 409 00:19:45,045 --> 00:19:46,578 You know, just to talk. 410 00:19:46,975 --> 00:19:49,673 Try it today at bonobos.com/TED 411 00:19:49,697 --> 00:19:52,118 and you'll get 20 percent off your first order. 412 00:19:52,142 --> 00:19:55,753 That's bonobos.com/TED for 20 percent off. 413 00:19:55,777 --> 00:19:59,912 (Music) 414 00:20:03,944 --> 00:20:05,094 (Music) 415 00:20:05,118 --> 00:20:08,204 When I was in college, I was a springboard diver. 416 00:20:08,228 --> 00:20:09,998 I was learning a new dive: 417 00:20:10,022 --> 00:20:12,021 two and a half flips with a twist. 418 00:20:13,165 --> 00:20:16,061 When I tried it out in a meet, I thought it went OK. 419 00:20:16,722 --> 00:20:18,706 Then I saw the judges' scores: 420 00:20:18,730 --> 00:20:23,164 two, two and a half, and zero point five. 421 00:20:24,015 --> 00:20:26,744 I don't think I'd ever even seen that score before. 422 00:20:27,721 --> 00:20:30,308 Anyway, when you're flipping and twisting in mid-air, 423 00:20:30,332 --> 00:20:32,737 you can't always gauge your own performance. 424 00:20:33,142 --> 00:20:36,137 And I think big parts of our work lives are like that, too. 425 00:20:36,451 --> 00:20:38,403 We're so immersed in the situation 426 00:20:38,427 --> 00:20:40,741 that we can't see ourselves objectively. 427 00:20:41,498 --> 00:20:45,238 At that diving meet, there were multiple judges who all saw the same flaws. 428 00:20:45,910 --> 00:20:48,658 When I watched the video afterward, I saw them, too. 429 00:20:49,006 --> 00:20:51,371 I'd executed a near-perfect belly flop. 430 00:20:51,395 --> 00:20:53,485 (Music) 431 00:20:53,509 --> 00:20:55,042 If you've ever played sports, 432 00:20:55,066 --> 00:20:57,434 you know the value of reviewing the game tape 433 00:20:57,458 --> 00:20:59,774 with coaches and colleagues who keep you honest. 434 00:21:00,109 --> 00:21:02,691 Why don't we do the same thing at work? 435 00:21:03,847 --> 00:21:05,447 At Bridgewater, they do. 436 00:21:06,101 --> 00:21:08,617 They're so obsessed with radical transparency 437 00:21:08,641 --> 00:21:12,441 that they record video or audio of almost every meeting. 438 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,220 If that sounds a bit like Big Brother is watching, 439 00:21:15,244 --> 00:21:16,490 well, he is. 440 00:21:17,292 --> 00:21:20,116 But here's the difference -- everyone is watching. 441 00:21:20,545 --> 00:21:23,442 They're constantly going back to the tapes to learn. 442 00:21:23,466 --> 00:21:26,029 This is what radical transparency sounds like. 443 00:21:26,053 --> 00:21:29,085 Here's Ray Dalio, the founder, talking with a colleague. 444 00:21:29,109 --> 00:21:31,577 RD: No, I'm not saying all your advice is bad. 445 00:21:31,601 --> 00:21:35,045 Colleague: Well, it sounds like you think it's bad. 446 00:21:35,069 --> 00:21:36,799 RD: Some of it is bad. 447 00:21:36,823 --> 00:21:38,418 All he's saying to you. 448 00:21:38,442 --> 00:21:42,084 You need to display that you know that you don't know. 449 00:21:42,108 --> 00:21:43,767 AG: In too many workplaces, 450 00:21:43,791 --> 00:21:46,482 people keep those comments behind closed doors. 451 00:21:46,783 --> 00:21:48,928 Jen Healy: In general hierarchical structures, 452 00:21:48,952 --> 00:21:51,126 you don't tell people what you actually think. 453 00:21:51,150 --> 00:21:53,195 AG: Jen Healy is a manager at Bridgewater. 454 00:21:53,219 --> 00:21:56,173 JH: You're always managing other people's perceptions of you 455 00:21:56,197 --> 00:21:59,745 and what they think of you, and trying to butter people up above, 456 00:21:59,769 --> 00:22:02,673 trying to make sure they don't think anything is going wrong, 457 00:22:02,697 --> 00:22:04,128 that you have all the answers. 458 00:22:04,152 --> 00:22:07,764 AG: Radical transparency is designed to solve for a deadly sin of work life: 459 00:22:07,788 --> 00:22:09,373 office politics. 460 00:22:09,397 --> 00:22:12,295 In too many places, what happens in the meeting 461 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:15,968 doesn't matter nearly as much as secret alliances and conversations 462 00:22:15,992 --> 00:22:17,160 after the meeting. 463 00:22:17,184 --> 00:22:19,590 JH: And so, you're able to just say what you think 464 00:22:19,614 --> 00:22:22,449 and also be held accountable if what you're thinking is bad. 465 00:22:22,473 --> 00:22:25,141 AG: But for it to work, you need all of your colleagues 466 00:22:25,165 --> 00:22:27,565 to get past their knee-jerk reactions to criticism. 467 00:22:27,926 --> 00:22:30,331 Which isn't easy, especially at first. 468 00:22:30,355 --> 00:22:33,671 Eileen Murray: When I first became acquainted with Bridgewater, 469 00:22:33,695 --> 00:22:35,125 you know, I wasn't enamored. 470 00:22:35,149 --> 00:22:36,585 AG: This is Eileen Murray. 471 00:22:36,609 --> 00:22:39,602 EM: When I first came up to Bridgewater for a meeting, 472 00:22:39,626 --> 00:22:42,171 I guess it was a management committee meeting 473 00:22:42,195 --> 00:22:43,594 and someone was being probed, 474 00:22:43,618 --> 00:22:47,542 basically asking people questions until you get to a logical answer 475 00:22:47,566 --> 00:22:48,960 as to what might be going on, 476 00:22:48,984 --> 00:22:51,279 and I was like, "I can't wait to get out of here, 477 00:22:51,303 --> 00:22:53,262 I think I'm going to put my hair on fire. 478 00:22:53,286 --> 00:22:54,493 These people are crazy." 479 00:22:54,517 --> 00:22:57,474 AG: But now, Eileen is one of the company's two CEOs. 480 00:22:57,498 --> 00:23:01,109 Along the way, she came to hear the criticism as tough love. 481 00:23:01,133 --> 00:23:03,553 Kind of like what you'd get from your family. 482 00:23:03,577 --> 00:23:06,061 EM: I have a younger sister who says things to me 483 00:23:06,085 --> 00:23:08,125 that I sometimes can't believe I tolerate, 484 00:23:08,149 --> 00:23:11,426 but I tolerate it because she's trying to make me better. 485 00:23:11,903 --> 00:23:15,856 And so once I understood the intention was to understand what people are like, 486 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,752 for the purpose of them understanding what they're like, 487 00:23:18,776 --> 00:23:22,601 so that, you know, you basically are aware of what you do well, 488 00:23:22,625 --> 00:23:26,276 you're aware of what you don't do well, so you can do things better in life. 489 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:28,196 RD: It's a little bit like Navy SEALs. 490 00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:30,713 Take the Navy SEAL, put them in the cold water. 491 00:23:30,737 --> 00:23:34,195 If that's a difficult moment, let's practice that, right? 492 00:23:34,751 --> 00:23:38,966 AG: Every day at the firm is a new encounter with your challenge network. 493 00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:41,347 You learn to seek out your trusted critics, 494 00:23:41,371 --> 00:23:43,059 which means you've opted in. 495 00:23:43,427 --> 00:23:47,156 And little by little, you get more comfortable hearing hard truths. 496 00:23:47,577 --> 00:23:49,561 Unless you don't. 497 00:23:50,068 --> 00:23:54,237 About a third of Bridgewater's new hires leave in the first year and a half. 498 00:23:54,903 --> 00:23:59,418 It was right at that year-and-a-half mark that Kiran Rao, the guy you heard earlier, 499 00:23:59,442 --> 00:24:02,736 found himself being told he was the company's worst manager 500 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,847 in front of 200 of his colleagues. 501 00:24:05,363 --> 00:24:08,336 Kiran might have been prepared, but it still hurt. 502 00:24:08,672 --> 00:24:13,506 KR: I was probably turning as red as my Indian complexion allows me to. 503 00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:16,284 And I was describing it as like, basically, 504 00:24:16,308 --> 00:24:19,061 dressing for the beach one day, 505 00:24:19,085 --> 00:24:22,149 in flip-flops and your swimwear, 506 00:24:22,173 --> 00:24:26,299 and you swing your door open and you're in a full-force winter storm. 507 00:24:26,323 --> 00:24:28,730 AG: The thing you need to understand about Kiran 508 00:24:28,754 --> 00:24:31,872 is that before Bridgewater, he'd already had a successful career. 509 00:24:32,238 --> 00:24:33,438 Actually, several. 510 00:24:33,770 --> 00:24:36,824 He was a doctor and worked with the World Health Organization. 511 00:24:37,127 --> 00:24:39,093 He was a principal in a consulting firm. 512 00:24:39,419 --> 00:24:41,728 And he worked at a successful investment firm. 513 00:24:42,132 --> 00:24:44,599 He'd never failed like this before. 514 00:24:45,077 --> 00:24:49,236 But what happened next was something I've never seen anywhere else. 515 00:24:49,553 --> 00:24:52,286 Are you embarrassed, you know, hide from everyone -- 516 00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:54,482 how did you move forward? 517 00:24:54,506 --> 00:24:56,744 KR: No, I felt great. 518 00:24:56,768 --> 00:24:58,228 AG: I'm sorry, what? 519 00:24:58,252 --> 00:24:59,438 KR: I felt great. 520 00:24:59,462 --> 00:25:01,478 AG: Do you realize how strange that sounds? 521 00:25:01,502 --> 00:25:02,653 KR: It does. 522 00:25:02,677 --> 00:25:05,114 AG: You can hear this in the tape of the meeting, 523 00:25:05,138 --> 00:25:06,940 right after he found out his ranking. 524 00:25:06,964 --> 00:25:08,457 Audio clip: I'm Kiran Rao, 525 00:25:08,481 --> 00:25:11,355 by now probably notorious/famous number one on the list. 526 00:25:11,379 --> 00:25:13,806 (Laughter) 527 00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:15,220 I think it's a great list. 528 00:25:15,244 --> 00:25:17,363 And I agree that I'm in that spot. 529 00:25:17,879 --> 00:25:21,071 This leaves me more energized versus not. 530 00:25:21,546 --> 00:25:24,575 I get energy from it and I look forward to helping or leaving, 531 00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:26,101 whichever is the right answer. 532 00:25:26,546 --> 00:25:28,752 AG: So are you just a glutton for punishment? 533 00:25:28,776 --> 00:25:29,926 (Laughter) 534 00:25:30,902 --> 00:25:32,434 KR: It's just data. 535 00:25:32,458 --> 00:25:36,141 It's just data, objective data about what I'm like. 536 00:25:36,165 --> 00:25:40,244 I would rather know how bad the bad is 537 00:25:40,268 --> 00:25:41,712 and how good the good is 538 00:25:41,736 --> 00:25:43,704 so I can do something with it. 539 00:25:43,728 --> 00:25:47,561 AG: I think a skeptic, particularly one with my training, might say, 540 00:25:47,585 --> 00:25:50,728 this is just cognitive dissonance reduction. 541 00:25:50,752 --> 00:25:54,998 So you're like, "This felt really bad, but I decided to stay 542 00:25:55,022 --> 00:25:58,752 and so it must have taught me something, I must have grown from the experience, 543 00:25:58,776 --> 00:26:01,236 otherwise, like, how the hell do I justify this?" 544 00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:04,200 Do you ever wonder whether you're just kind of rationalizing 545 00:26:04,224 --> 00:26:05,845 the unpleasant experience? 546 00:26:06,188 --> 00:26:07,434 KR: No. 547 00:26:07,458 --> 00:26:10,910 But Bridgewater is not about those dramatic moments, right? 548 00:26:10,934 --> 00:26:15,037 The real challenge for people 549 00:26:15,061 --> 00:26:17,672 to figure out if they're fit for the culture or not 550 00:26:17,696 --> 00:26:19,522 is not the dramatic moments, 551 00:26:19,546 --> 00:26:21,759 it's the daily experience of it. 552 00:26:22,228 --> 00:26:23,392 Right? 553 00:26:23,416 --> 00:26:29,192 That drama is incidental to the real work of getting to know yourself. 554 00:26:30,061 --> 00:26:34,275 I do believe I've experienced deep, fundamental change at Bridgewater. 555 00:26:34,703 --> 00:26:37,203 AG: It is interesting, because it almost sound like 556 00:26:37,227 --> 00:26:40,629 you're trying to rewire or override an instinct. 557 00:26:41,148 --> 00:26:44,179 KR: When I have somebody tell me I did something badly, 558 00:26:44,203 --> 00:26:45,542 my ego kicks in, right, 559 00:26:45,566 --> 00:26:49,946 and so my composure starts to become worse and worse. 560 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,302 "That is so wrong, how can that possibly be true, 561 00:26:53,326 --> 00:26:57,407 I've done all these things in my life and how could I be that person?" 562 00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:00,171 AG: That's what I call proving mode. 563 00:27:00,195 --> 00:27:02,506 It's the primal, emotional reaction. 564 00:27:02,530 --> 00:27:03,863 The lower-level you. 565 00:27:04,458 --> 00:27:06,950 But your brain has another higher-level setting. 566 00:27:06,974 --> 00:27:08,339 Its improving mode. 567 00:27:08,688 --> 00:27:11,132 That's your inner Olympic diver, 568 00:27:11,156 --> 00:27:13,341 who wants to know exactly how good you are 569 00:27:13,365 --> 00:27:15,889 and every single thing you can do to get better. 570 00:27:16,530 --> 00:27:19,708 Improving mode means you're always a work in progress. 571 00:27:20,370 --> 00:27:21,895 At Bridgewater, the thinking is 572 00:27:21,919 --> 00:27:24,275 that if you're exposed to feedback all the time, 573 00:27:24,299 --> 00:27:26,640 you get better at hearing that improving voice. 574 00:27:27,188 --> 00:27:29,196 KR: There is a much softer voice. 575 00:27:29,220 --> 00:27:32,887 The logical person inside me who's saying, 576 00:27:32,911 --> 00:27:34,712 "Yeah, it's been a rough year. 577 00:27:35,411 --> 00:27:37,696 It hasn't been such an impactful year. 578 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,420 Kiran, you aren't really accomplishing your goals. 579 00:27:40,879 --> 00:27:42,839 That's not so surprising." 580 00:27:42,863 --> 00:27:45,283 The difference, though, is that those two voices 581 00:27:45,307 --> 00:27:47,876 are very different in amplitude at that moment. 582 00:27:48,617 --> 00:27:50,966 The low-level me screaming, 583 00:27:50,990 --> 00:27:53,093 the upper-level me is whispering. 584 00:27:53,117 --> 00:27:54,276 AG: Interesting. 585 00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:57,355 So the two yous will always still be battling at some level. 586 00:27:57,379 --> 00:27:59,566 KR: I think so. 587 00:27:59,590 --> 00:28:03,124 And to me, the beauty is I can see that now. 588 00:28:03,148 --> 00:28:05,212 It used to take me a month or two 589 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:08,503 to recognize that and come back to an even keel. 590 00:28:08,982 --> 00:28:11,570 And with Ray, it takes a microsecond. 591 00:28:11,594 --> 00:28:14,578 RD: Yes, it's almost exactly that quick. 592 00:28:14,602 --> 00:28:19,404 I go, "Damn, I wish I would have ..." whatever that thing is, 593 00:28:19,428 --> 00:28:22,053 and simultaneously, "Where's the lesson?" 594 00:28:22,077 --> 00:28:24,188 And I think it's a habit. 595 00:28:24,625 --> 00:28:26,158 AG: OK, that's weird. 596 00:28:26,545 --> 00:28:29,791 Ray is suggesting he doesn't just feel less pain than the rest of us, 597 00:28:29,815 --> 00:28:31,553 when he gets criticized. 598 00:28:31,577 --> 00:28:34,141 He's trained himself so that the pain signal 599 00:28:34,165 --> 00:28:36,538 is actually followed by a pleasure signal. 600 00:28:36,911 --> 00:28:39,267 Over years of seeing that negative feedback 601 00:28:39,291 --> 00:28:41,236 leads to positive outcomes, 602 00:28:41,260 --> 00:28:44,045 he sort of seems to enjoy hearing it now. 603 00:28:44,069 --> 00:28:47,696 RD: When you're getting criticism, how do you feel about it? 604 00:28:48,482 --> 00:28:50,791 AG: So I think overall ... 605 00:28:51,790 --> 00:28:53,820 I don't think I enjoy it most of the time, 606 00:28:53,844 --> 00:28:55,061 but I crave it. 607 00:28:55,085 --> 00:28:58,304 I started teaching and was terrified of public speaking. 608 00:28:58,783 --> 00:29:00,743 I remember one of the feedback forms said 609 00:29:00,767 --> 00:29:01,927 that I was so nervous 610 00:29:01,951 --> 00:29:05,094 that I was causing the students to physically shake in their seats. 611 00:29:05,118 --> 00:29:08,071 At the time, I was like, "Ugh, I don't want to be that person." 612 00:29:08,095 --> 00:29:10,823 But I need the feedback in order to not be that person. 613 00:29:11,514 --> 00:29:14,441 I think it was easier to take because I asked for it. 614 00:29:14,465 --> 00:29:18,022 I don't think I take criticism so well when somebody just springs it on me 615 00:29:18,046 --> 00:29:21,046 and I don't feel like I've opted in to it first. 616 00:29:21,703 --> 00:29:23,180 RD: That's beautiful, right? 617 00:29:23,204 --> 00:29:24,767 And it's totally understandable 618 00:29:24,791 --> 00:29:27,918 that when it's sprung on you, it takes you by surprise, 619 00:29:27,942 --> 00:29:30,212 you know, because it's an amygdala response. 620 00:29:30,236 --> 00:29:34,034 And the amygdala is the fight or flight and it is a very short-term thing. 621 00:29:34,371 --> 00:29:37,863 But in some period of time, that's going to fade 622 00:29:37,887 --> 00:29:40,926 and then if at that moment you reflect, 623 00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:45,279 pain plus reflection equals progress. 624 00:29:45,664 --> 00:29:50,545 Because the pain is signaling you that something is wrong; 625 00:29:50,569 --> 00:29:54,338 the reflection helps to produce that learning. 626 00:29:54,362 --> 00:29:57,560 And if you do that over a period of time, you can't help but learn. 627 00:29:57,584 --> 00:29:59,172 (Music) 628 00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:00,445 AG: That's the goal. 629 00:30:00,871 --> 00:30:02,375 But if you're like most people, 630 00:30:02,399 --> 00:30:05,149 reflection gets hijacked by your inner dictator, 631 00:30:05,173 --> 00:30:07,778 who immediately goes into denial and attack. 632 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,301 We need a way to take a more honest look in the mirror. 633 00:30:11,950 --> 00:30:13,781 In the moment, that's hard to do. 634 00:30:14,331 --> 00:30:18,164 So in psychology, we have a fun way of making you a little more aware 635 00:30:18,188 --> 00:30:19,866 of how you appear to others. 636 00:30:20,901 --> 00:30:25,291 Imagine that you're sitting at a computer to take a timed, multiple-choice test. 637 00:30:25,315 --> 00:30:28,291 The instructions say to answer question after question 638 00:30:28,315 --> 00:30:29,849 until a timer goes off. 639 00:30:30,513 --> 00:30:34,339 But what we haven't told you is that we're recording your keyboard. 640 00:30:34,363 --> 00:30:37,948 So if you submit an answer after the timer, we know you're cheating. 641 00:30:39,204 --> 00:30:42,640 It turns out you're significantly less likely to cheat 642 00:30:42,664 --> 00:30:44,525 if there's a mirror in the room. 643 00:30:45,203 --> 00:30:48,550 It reminds you to reflect on how your behavior will look to others. 644 00:30:48,574 --> 00:30:50,060 (Music) 645 00:30:50,084 --> 00:30:53,586 At Bridgewater, Ray is constantly trying to look in the mirror, 646 00:30:53,610 --> 00:30:56,590 so he can see himself the way others see him. 647 00:30:57,134 --> 00:30:59,553 Psychologists often talk about a second score. 648 00:30:59,577 --> 00:31:01,998 The idea being that you can't control 649 00:31:02,022 --> 00:31:04,323 your unprepared, long-winded meeting performance, 650 00:31:04,347 --> 00:31:06,363 the D-minus is done, that already happened. 651 00:31:06,387 --> 00:31:08,229 The only thing you can do then is say, 652 00:31:08,253 --> 00:31:10,268 "Alright, I can't control that first score, 653 00:31:10,292 --> 00:31:13,680 I can control the second, which is how well did I take the first score." 654 00:31:13,704 --> 00:31:15,729 Even if I got a D-minus for my performance, 655 00:31:15,753 --> 00:31:18,887 I can get an A-plus for how I took the feedback of my performance. 656 00:31:18,911 --> 00:31:21,656 Do you give yourself those kinds of explicit evaluations? 657 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,141 RD: Everybody gives those. 658 00:31:23,165 --> 00:31:25,228 AG: If people know they're being evaluated 659 00:31:25,252 --> 00:31:27,855 on how well they learn and how well they take feedback, 660 00:31:27,879 --> 00:31:30,188 then there's no stable image to protect anymore. 661 00:31:30,212 --> 00:31:32,252 RD: Well put, it's a good point. 662 00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:33,791 AG: A second score. 663 00:31:33,815 --> 00:31:35,506 Every time I get feedback, 664 00:31:35,530 --> 00:31:38,930 I rate myself now on how well I took the feedback. 665 00:31:39,363 --> 00:31:41,110 That's a habit we can all develop. 666 00:31:41,134 --> 00:31:44,174 When someone gives you feedback, they've already evaluated you. 667 00:31:44,593 --> 00:31:47,978 So it helps to remind yourself that the main thing they're judging now 668 00:31:48,002 --> 00:31:50,232 is whether you're open or defensive. 669 00:31:50,256 --> 00:31:52,764 You don't always realize when you're being defensive. 670 00:31:52,788 --> 00:31:54,891 So call on your challenge network. 671 00:31:54,915 --> 00:31:57,077 Ask them to give you a second score, too. 672 00:31:57,101 --> 00:31:59,712 "How did I come across when you gave me feedback?" 673 00:32:00,251 --> 00:32:03,410 And then really listen to what they say. 674 00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:06,492 And respond by saying thank you. 675 00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:08,434 (Music) 676 00:32:08,458 --> 00:32:10,228 The best way to prove yourself 677 00:32:10,252 --> 00:32:13,104 is to show that you're willing to improve yourself. 678 00:32:13,625 --> 00:32:14,775 Just ask Kiran. 679 00:32:15,124 --> 00:32:18,609 KR: It's funny, I called my wife on my way home and said this happened, 680 00:32:18,633 --> 00:32:23,041 they put up the list of the worst managers at Bridgewater and I was number one. 681 00:32:23,434 --> 00:32:26,582 And I had an amazing, energizing day ... 682 00:32:27,768 --> 00:32:28,919 And it felt great. 683 00:32:28,943 --> 00:32:31,673 And she said, "That's wonderful, Kiran, I'm proud of you." 684 00:32:31,697 --> 00:32:33,426 AG: She said she was proud of you? 685 00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:35,466 For being the worst manager at Bridgewater? 686 00:32:35,490 --> 00:32:37,370 KR: No, for looking in the mirror, 687 00:32:37,394 --> 00:32:39,315 for not cringing from what I look like, 688 00:32:39,339 --> 00:32:42,302 for being able to see reality for what it is. 689 00:32:42,934 --> 00:32:44,656 And I probably reached home by then. 690 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,425 It's a short commute. 691 00:32:46,449 --> 00:32:53,397 (Music) 692 00:32:53,421 --> 00:32:55,747 AG: WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. 693 00:32:56,294 --> 00:32:58,903 The show is produced by TED with Transmitter Media 694 00:32:58,927 --> 00:33:00,752 and Pineapple Street Media. 695 00:33:00,776 --> 00:33:04,378 Our team includes Colin Helms, Gretta Cohn, Gabrielle Lewis, 696 00:33:04,402 --> 00:33:06,434 Angela Cheng and Janet Lee. 697 00:33:06,458 --> 00:33:10,166 This episode was produced by Dan O'Donell with help from Julia Alsop. 698 00:33:10,768 --> 00:33:14,069 Our show is mixed by David Herman with help from Dan Dzula. 699 00:33:14,093 --> 00:33:16,191 Original music by Hahnsdale Hsu. 700 00:33:17,037 --> 00:33:18,799 Special thanks to our sponsors: 701 00:33:18,823 --> 00:33:22,703 Bonobos, Accenture, JP Morgan Chase and Warby Parker. 702 00:33:23,405 --> 00:33:24,651 Next time on WorkLife, 703 00:33:24,675 --> 00:33:27,230 we're going inside the writer's room at The Daily Show 704 00:33:27,254 --> 00:33:30,373 to find out how they do creative work under the gun. 705 00:33:30,397 --> 00:33:33,889 David Kibukka: The first draft is not meant to be the last draft. 706 00:33:33,913 --> 00:33:36,614 Dan Amira: Yeah, that's why they call it the first draft. 707 00:33:36,638 --> 00:33:39,060 DK: That was a big part of the naming process. 708 00:33:39,574 --> 00:33:41,405 AG: That's next time on WorkLife. 709 00:33:41,429 --> 00:33:43,239 In the meantime, thanks for listening. 710 00:33:43,263 --> 00:33:46,134 And if you like what you hear, rate an review the show. 711 00:33:46,591 --> 00:33:48,053 It helps other people find us. 712 00:33:48,741 --> 00:33:49,947 See you next week. 713 00:33:49,971 --> 00:33:53,582 (Music) 714 00:33:55,403 --> 00:33:58,379 Ray, this has been fun and interesting 715 00:33:58,403 --> 00:34:00,164 and thought-provoking as always. 716 00:34:00,188 --> 00:34:02,656 RD: So, now what criticisms do I get? 717 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,537 AG: Oh, I have to criticize you? 718 00:34:04,561 --> 00:34:05,783 RD: Yeah. 719 00:34:05,807 --> 00:34:07,518 AG: Ugh. Do we have time for this? 720 00:34:07,542 --> 00:34:09,053 (Laughter) 721 00:34:09,077 --> 00:34:12,682 You stay at the level of abstract concepts and ideas 722 00:34:12,706 --> 00:34:17,349 as opposed to moving down into sort of, the experiences that you've had, 723 00:34:17,373 --> 00:34:19,508 the stories that you can tell, 724 00:34:19,532 --> 00:34:23,268 the emotions that are part of that that really bring your ideas to life. 725 00:34:23,292 --> 00:34:26,759 If you brought more of the concrete, the emotional in 726 00:34:26,783 --> 00:34:28,610 along with the abstract conceptual, 727 00:34:28,634 --> 00:34:31,045 I think your communication would be more effective. 728 00:34:33,134 --> 00:34:34,534 RD: Well, thank you.