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Herald: ...but now we start what we're
here for and I'm really happy to be
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allowed to introduce Anna Mazgal. She will
talk about something which a great title.
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I love it. "Confessions of a Future
Terrorist". Terror, terrorism is the one
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thing you can always shout out and you get
everything through. And she will give us a
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rough guide to overregulate free speech
with anti-terrorist measures. Anna works
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for Wikimedia where she's a lobbyist of
human rights into the digital environment
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and works in Brussels. And she gives a lot
of talk. And I think it's the first time
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at a congress for her, is that right?
Anna: Second time.
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Herald: Second time? I haven't really
researched right, because I searched for
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it. So I have to do this again. It's her
2nd time for congress and I'm really
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happy to have her here. Please welcome her
with a big round of applause.
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Anna, the stage is yours.
Anna: Thank you. Yes. So as you have
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already heard, I don't do any of the cool
things that we comedians and Wikipedians
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do. I am based in Brussels and the
L-word, I do the lobbying on behalf of our
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community. And today I am here because I
wanted to talk to you about one of the
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proposals of 4 laws that we are now
observing the development of. And I wanted
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to share my concerns also like active, as
an activist, because I'm really worried
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how, if that law passes in its worst
possible vision or one of the of the bad
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versions, how it will affect my work. I'm
also concerned how it would it will affect
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your work. And basically all of ours
expression online. And I also want to
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share with you that this law makes me
really angry. So, so I think these are a
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few good reasons to be here and to talk to
you. And I hope after this presentation we
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can have a conversation about this. And
I'm looking forward also to your
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perspective on it and, and also the things
you may not agree with maybe. So, so what
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is this law? So, in September 2018, the
European Commission came out with a
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proposal of regulation on preventing
the dissemination of terrorist content
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online. So there are a few things to
unpack here of for what it is about. First
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of all, when we see a law that is about
Internet and that is about the content and
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what is about the online environment and
it says it will prevent something, this
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always brings a very difficult and
complicated perspective for us, the
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digital rights activists in Brussels.
Because prevention online never means
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anything good. So, so this is one thing.
The other thing is that this very troubled
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concept of terrorist content, I will be
talking about this more, we will talk, I
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will show you how the European Commission
understands it and what are the problems
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with that understanding and whether this
is something that can actually be really
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defined in the law. So, so these are the,
the already the red flags that I have seen
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and we have seen when we were, when we
first got them, the proposal, into our
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hands. I would like to tell you a little
bit about the framework of it. This is
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probably the, the most dry part of that,
but I think it's important to correctly
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place it. First of all, this is the
European Union legislation. So we're
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talking about the legislation that will
influence 27 member states. Maybe 28, but
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we know about Brexit, so, so that is a
debatable what's going to happen there.
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And it's important to note that whenever
we have European legislation in the EU,
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this is the, these are the laws that
actually are shaping the laws of all those
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countries. And they come before the
national laws. So, so should this, should
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this be implemented in any of the form,
when it's implemented in any of the form,
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this is what is going to happen. The next
important part of information that I want
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to give you is that this particular
regulation is a part of the framework that
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is called Digital Single Market. So the
European Union, one of, one of the
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objectives when a European
Commission created the law and when other
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bodies of the European Union work on it,
is that there is, that, that the laws in
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the member states of the
European Union are actually similar. And
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the Digital Single Market means that what
we want, we want to achieve something on
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the Internet that in a way is already
achieved within the European Union
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geographically, meaning that we don't want
the borders on the Internet between people
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communicating and also delivering goods
and services in the European Union.
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And you may ask how that connects with
the terrorist content and how
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that connects with what today's topics. To
be honest, I am also puzzled because I
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think, that legislation that talks about
how people communicate online and what is
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considered the speech that we wanted there
and we don't want this should not be a
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part of a framework that is about market.
So this is also something that
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brings a concern. Also, as you've seen at
the first slide, this piece of
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legislation, this proposal is called the
regulation. And not to go too much into
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details about what are the forms of
legislation in the EU, the important thing
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to know here is that the regulation is a
law that once it is adopted by the EU,
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once the parliament votes on it, it
starts, it is binding directly in
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all the member states of the European
Union, which means that there is no
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further discussion on how this should be
actually used. Of course, in each country
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there are different decisions being made
by different bodies. But it means for us,
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the people that work on this and that want
to influence the legislative process, that
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once this law is out of Brussels, there
is nothing much to be done
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about how it's going to be
implemented. And this is
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important because for now, the discussion
about this, because for us, the discussion
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about this, is the one that happens in
Brussels. There are a few versions of the
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law. And very quickly, European Commission
proposes the law. European Parliament
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looks at it, debates it, and then produces
its own version of it. So amends it or
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makes it worse. And then the Council of
the EU, which is the gathering of all the
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member states and the
representatives of the government of the
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member states, also creates their own
version. And then, of course, when you
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have 3 versions, you also need to have a
lot of conversations and a lot of
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negotiation, how to put this together into
one. And all of those bodies have their
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own ideas. Every one of those bodies
have their own ideas on how any law should
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look like. So this process is not only
complicated, but also this negotiation
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that is called the trilogs. It's actually
very non-transparent. And there is no or
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almost none, no official information about
how those negotiations go, what are the
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versions of the document and so on. This
is the part that we are now in. And I will
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talk more about this later on. Today I
want to talk to you about the potential
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consequences of diversion. That is the
original one, which is the European
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Commission's version. And it's because it
will be very complicated and
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confusing I guess, if we look at all of
the proposals that are on the table. But
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also, it's important because European
Commission has a lot of influence also
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informally, both on member states and also
on - to an extent - on the whole trial
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process. So whatever gains we have in
other versions or whatever better
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solutions we have there, they are not
secure yet. And I promise I'm almost
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done with this part. There is other
relevant legislation that we'll
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consider. One is the E-Commerce Directive.
And in this, the part that is
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very relevant is for this particular
conversation, is that the platforms,
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according to this law or Internet services
or hosting providers are not by default
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responsible for the content that users
play, place online. So it's a very
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important premise that also protects us,
protects our rights, protects our privacy,
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that the they are not, they cannot
go after us or they cannot look for, for
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the content that could be potentially
illegal, which would mean that they would
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have to look into everything. But of
course, they have to react when somebody
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notifies them and they have to see whether
the information that is placed by the
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users should stay up or not. There is also
a directive on combating terrorism. And
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this is the piece of legislation that
is quite recent to my best
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knowledge. Not all countries in the
European Union, not all member states have
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implemented it yet. So for us, it was also
very puzzling that we actually have a new
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law, a new proposal that is talking about
the communication part of, of what already
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has been mentioned in this directive. When
we still don't know how it works, we still
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don't know because this law is physically
not being used at all. So this was for
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us also difficult to understand why the
commission does not want to wait and see
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how like what comes out from the
directive on combating terrorism. So
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why would the European Commission and why
the European legislators would
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actually want such a law that, again,
is about the content that people post
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through different services and why this is
an important issue. If this is, why this
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issue is actually conflated with
the market questions and the
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harmonization in the digital market. So
there are some serious numbers here. 94 %
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and 99 %. And I'm wondering if you have
any idea what those numbers are about.
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Audience: Persons.
Anna: I'm sorry?
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Audience: Persons.
Anna: Yes. It's about people. But the
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numbers are actually presenting, so there
was a survey done by Eurostat and those
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numbers present the percentage of
people first number 94 % presents the
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percentage of people that say that they
have not come across terrorist content
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online. Right. So, inversely, only 6 %
of people actually say that they had
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access to terrorist content, it's
important to underline that they say it
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because there's no way to check what that
content actually was and of course we can,
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you know, here is the analogy of what a
certain American judge said about
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pornography. I know it when I see it. It's
not a very good definition of anything,
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really. So I would argue that actually
6 % of people being affected by something
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is not really a big percentage and that
the European Union actually has bigger
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problems to deal with and where they can
spend money and energy on. E.g., we are
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all affected by, I don't know, air
pollution and that's much more people.
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89% are the people in the age range
between 15 and 24. But again, were not
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affected by something what they would
consider terrorist content. Of course,
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would somebody think of the children?
There you go.
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The children and young people do
not also experience
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it in an overwhelming,
overwhelmingly. So, but this rationale
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is being used, 6 % and 11 % as one
of the reasons why this regulation is
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important, why this law is important. The
other is the exposure to, the other reason
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is the exposure to imagery of violent
crimes via social media. So, of course, we
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know that, that platforms such as Facebook
and YouTube contain all sorts of things
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that people look. We also know that
because of their business models, they
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sometimes push controversial content or
violent content into, into peoples
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proposal, that the proposals that
they give to people to, to watch or to
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read. So this is, actually the 2nd part
is not addressed by this, by this
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proposal at all. But nevertheless,
whenever we talk to the representatives of
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the commission why this law is there, they
start waving, that was my experience that
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the one of the meetings, the person
started waving his phone at me and saying,
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"Well, you know, there are beheading
videos online and I can show you how
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horrible it is", which I consider
to be an emotional
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blackmail at best, but not really a
good regulatory impulse.
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So I guess maybe the commission
people are somehow
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mysteriously affected by that content more
than anything else. I don't mean to joke
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about those, those videos because of
course, it is not something that I would
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want to watch and, and it is very violent.
But I would also argue that the problem is
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not that the video is there, but that
somebody has been beheaded. And this is
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where we should actually direct our
attention and look for the sources of that
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sort of behavior and not only to try and
clean the Internet. The other reason why,
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why this law should be enacted is a
radicalisation. Of course, this is a,
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this is a problem for certain
vulnerable populations and people. And we
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can read about it a lot. And there are
organizations that are dealing with
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strategies to counteract radicalisation.
Again, when we look at the evidence, what
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is the, what is the relationship between
content that is available online and the
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fact that people get radicalized in
different level, in different ways, that
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we didn't see any research and the
commission also did not present any
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research that would actually point to at
least the correlation between the two. So
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again, asked about, so "How did you come
up with this idea since without really
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actually showing the, the support for your
claim that radicalisation is connected to
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that?" This is a quote from a meeting
that happened public and journalists were
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there. Again, the person from the
commission said, "We had to make a guess,
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so we made the guess that way." There is
the guess being, yes, there is some sort
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of connection between the content and the
radicalisation. And then finally, when we
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read the impact assessment and when we
look at the different articles, that or
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different explanations that the European
Commission posts about the
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rationale for this law, of course, they
bring the terrorists attack that have
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been happening and they make, they swiftly
go from naming the different violent
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events that have happened in
Europe very recently or quite recently.
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And they swiftly make a connection between
the fact that somebody took a truck and
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and run into a group of people. Or that
somebody was participating in the shooting
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or organizing the shooting of people
enjoying themselves.They swiftly go from
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this to the fact that regulation of the
content is needed. Which also, the fact
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that you put something in one sentence
does not mean it makes sense. Right? So
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this is also not very well documented.
Again, pressed about this, the
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representative of the European Commission
said that, well, "We know that and it has
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been proven in the investigation, that one
of the people that were responsible for
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the Bataclan attack actually used the
Internet before that happened.
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laughter
Yes. No more comment needed on that one.
00:17:46.357 --> 00:17:52.160
So, well, clearly, there are "very good
reasons", quote unquote, to spend time
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and citizens money on working on
the new law. And I always say that
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basically these laws are created because,
not because there is a reason, but
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because there is a do-something-doctrine.
Right. We have a problem, we
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have to do something. And this is how this
law, I think, came to be. And the
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do-something-doctrine in this particular
case, or also, of course, it encompasses a
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very broad and blurry definition of that
law. I will talk about this more in a
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moment. It also encompasses measures, we,
if we define something that we want to
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counteract to, we have to basically say
what should happen. Right. So that the
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problem is being solved. And there are 3
measures that they will also explain. One
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is the removal orders. The other is
referrals. And the third are so-called
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proactive measures. This is, I guess, the
part where we touch the prevention
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most. And then the third issue is that,
the one of the things I also want to talk
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about is the links between the content
that is being removed and the actual
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investigations or prosecutions that may
occur, because of course it's possible
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that there will be some content found that
actually does document the crime. And
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then what do we do about that? So, going
forward, I do think that the definition
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and this law is basically, its main
principle is to normalize the state
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control over how people communicate and
what they wanted to say. As it was said
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before, under the premise of terrorism, we
can actually pack a lot of different
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things because people are afraid of this.
And we have also examples from other
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topics, other laws that have been debated
in Brussels. One was public sector
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information directive, where everybody was
very happy discussing how much public
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information should be released and where
it should come from and how people should
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have access to it. And a part of public
information is the information that is
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produced by companies that perform public
services, but they may also be private,
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for example, sometimes transport, public
transport is provided that way. And
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actually public transport providers were
the ones that were saying that they cannot
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release the information that they have,
namely timetables and other
00:20:36.549 --> 00:20:44.270
information about how the system
works that could be useful for citizens
00:20:44.270 --> 00:20:49.350
because then it may be used by terrorists.
I guess that maybe prevents the potential
00:20:49.350 --> 00:20:53.510
terrorists from going from bus stop to bus
stop and figuring out how the buses go.
00:20:53.510 --> 00:20:57.530
But we already know that this does not
work that way. So this is something
00:20:57.530 --> 00:21:04.040
that actually normalizes this approach.
And let's first look at the definition of
00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:09.899
the proposal as presented by the
European Commission. So they say
00:21:09.899 --> 00:21:14.120
basically, let me read: "Terrorist content
means one or more of the following
00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:20.720
information. So a) inciting or advocating,
including by glorifying, the commission of
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:25.990
terrorist offences". I do apologise for
the horrible level of English
00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:32.040
that they use, I don't know why and that I
don't apologise for them, but for the fact
00:21:32.040 --> 00:21:35.960
that they expose you to it. "The
commission of terrorist offences,
00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:40.240
Clapping
thereby causing a danger that such acts be
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:44.650
committed". You won't believe how many
times I had to read all this to actually
00:21:44.650 --> 00:21:48.525
understand what all those things mean.
"Encouraging the contribution to terrorist
00:21:48.525 --> 00:21:56.749
offences". So contribution could be money,
could be some, I guess material resources.
00:21:56.749 --> 00:22:00.679
"Promoting the activities of a terrorist
group, in particular by encouraging the
00:22:00.679 --> 00:22:05.702
participation in or support to a
terrorist group. Instructing on methods or
00:22:05.702 --> 00:22:10.076
techniques for the purpose of committing
terrorist offenses". And then there is
00:22:10.076 --> 00:22:16.230
also the definition of "dissemination of
terrorist content". That basically means
00:22:16.230 --> 00:22:20.490
"making terrorist content available to
third parties on the hosting service
00:22:20.490 --> 00:22:26.830
providers services". As you can probably
see, the dissemination and the fact that
00:22:26.830 --> 00:22:33.360
third parties are evoked mean that this
law is super broad. So it's not only about
00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:38.200
social media because making content
available through third parties may mean
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:43.290
that I am sharing something over some sort
of service with my mom and she is a third
00:22:43.290 --> 00:22:48.860
party in the understanding of this law. So
we were actually super troubled to see
00:22:48.860 --> 00:22:54.350
that not only does it encompass services
that make information available to the
00:22:54.350 --> 00:22:58.809
public. So the one that we all can see
like social media, but also that
00:22:58.809 --> 00:23:04.530
potentially it could be used against
services that make, let people communicate
00:23:04.530 --> 00:23:09.810
privately. So that is a that is a big
issue. The second thing I wanted to direct
00:23:09.810 --> 00:23:17.660
your attention to is the parts that
they put in italics. It's how soft those
00:23:17.660 --> 00:23:25.178
those concepts are, inciting, advocating,
glorifying, encouraging, promoting. This
00:23:25.178 --> 00:23:29.470
is a law that actually potentially can
really influence how we talk and how to
00:23:29.470 --> 00:23:33.610
communicate what we wanted to talk about,
whether we agree or disagree with certain
00:23:33.610 --> 00:23:41.572
policies or certain political decisions.
And all those things are super soft. And
00:23:41.572 --> 00:23:47.090
it's very, very hard to say what
does it really mean. And I want to
00:23:47.090 --> 00:23:53.679
give you an example of the same
content used in 3 different cases to
00:23:53.679 --> 00:23:59.820
illustrate this. So let's imagine we have
a group of people that recorded a video
00:23:59.820 --> 00:24:03.950
and on those videos, they
say that, well, basically they call
00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:10.650
themselves terrorists, to make it easier,
and they say that they wanted to
00:24:10.650 --> 00:24:16.820
commit all sorts of horrible things in
specific places, so that constitutes like
00:24:16.820 --> 00:24:21.702
some sort of a credible threat. And they
also bragged that they killed someone. And
00:24:21.702 --> 00:24:25.401
they also say that they're super happy
about this and so on. And they also, of
00:24:25.401 --> 00:24:29.620
course, encourage others to join them and
so on and so on. And the 3 cases would be:
00:24:29.620 --> 00:24:35.871
1 would be that this particular group
posted videos on, I don't know, their
00:24:35.871 --> 00:24:41.340
YouTube channel. The other case would be
that there is a media outlet that reports
00:24:41.340 --> 00:24:47.265
on it and either links to this video or
maybe present snippets of it. And the
00:24:47.265 --> 00:24:51.480
third case would be, for example, that
there is some sort of group that is
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:57.370
actually following what's happening in
that region and collects evidence that can
00:24:57.370 --> 00:25:01.020
then help identify the people and
prosecute them for the crimes they commit.
00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:07.975
Like the crime that's our
exemplary terrorists admitted to
00:25:07.975 --> 00:25:13.400
committing. And do you think that
according to this definition, in your
00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:18.347
opinion, do you think that there is a
difference between those 3 types of
00:25:18.347 --> 00:25:23.020
presenting that content between the
terrorist group that is presenting it on
00:25:23.020 --> 00:25:27.919
their channel, between the media outlet
and between the activists? There is none.
00:25:27.919 --> 00:25:34.660
Because this law has nothing, does not
define in any way that the so-called
00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:42.179
terrorist content is something that is
published with an intention of actually
00:25:42.179 --> 00:25:48.980
advocating and glorifying. So the problem
is that not only does the content that,
00:25:48.980 --> 00:25:54.226
let's say, is as weak as we may call it
manifestly illegal. So somebody kills
00:25:54.226 --> 00:25:58.706
someone and is being recorded and we know
it's a crime and perhaps we don't want to
00:25:58.706 --> 00:26:02.316
watch it, although I do think that we
should also have a discussion in our
00:26:02.316 --> 00:26:08.350
society, what we wanted to see and
what we don't want to see.
00:26:08.350 --> 00:26:12.780
From the fact, from the perspective that
the world is complicated and we may
00:26:12.780 --> 00:26:17.480
have the right to access all sorts of
information, even that is not so
00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:23.030
pleasant and not so easy to digest. So
this law does not make this
00:26:23.030 --> 00:26:28.030
differentiation. There is no mention of
how this should be intentional to qualify
00:26:28.030 --> 00:26:34.600
to be considered so-called terrorist
content. And that's a big problem. So as
00:26:34.600 --> 00:26:38.810
you can see, there is a fallacy in this
narrative because these will be the member
00:26:38.810 --> 00:26:45.809
states and their so-called competent
authorities that will be deciding what the
00:26:45.809 --> 00:26:54.460
terrorist content is. And, of course,
Europeans have a tendency, a tendency to
00:26:54.460 --> 00:26:59.900
think we have the tendency to think of
ourselves as the the societies and the
00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:07.160
nations and the countries that champion
the rule of law and that and that actually
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:13.700
respect fundamental rights and expect,
respect freedom of speech. But we also
00:27:13.700 --> 00:27:18.490
know that this is changing rapidly. And I
also will show you examples of how that
00:27:18.490 --> 00:27:24.510
changes in this area that we're talking
about right now. So. So I do not have
00:27:24.510 --> 00:27:29.546
great trust in in European governments
into making the correct judgment about
00:27:29.546 --> 00:27:45.421
that. So. So we have this category of very
dubious and and very broad terrorist
00:27:45.421 --> 00:27:56.250
content. And then, so how it's how it's
being done. The, the basically all that
00:27:56.250 --> 00:28:01.169
power to decide what the content, like how
to deal with that content, is actually
00:28:01.169 --> 00:28:04.880
outsourced to private actors. So the
platforms that we are talking about
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:09.450
becomes kind of mercenaries because
both the commission and I guess many
00:28:09.450 --> 00:28:13.399
member states say, well, it's not possible
that the judge will actually look through
00:28:13.399 --> 00:28:18.169
content that is placed online and give,
you know, proper judiciary decisions about
00:28:18.169 --> 00:28:21.951
what should, what constitute freedom of
expression and what goes beyond it.
00:28:21.951 --> 00:28:29.425
Because it hurts other people or
is basically a proof of something illegal.
00:28:29.425 --> 00:28:32.900
So the platforms will take those
decisions. This will be the hosting
00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:39.870
service providers, as I mentioned. And
then also a lot of the reliance that they
00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:44.074
will do it right is put into the wishful
thinking in this proposal that says, well,
00:28:44.074 --> 00:28:47.855
basically, you have to put in terms of
service that you will not host terrorist
00:28:47.855 --> 00:28:52.550
content. So then that again, there is a
layer in there where the platform,
00:28:52.550 --> 00:29:01.234
let's say Facebook or Twitter or any
anyone else actually decides what and how
00:29:01.234 --> 00:29:06.890
they wanted to deal with that in detail.
Also, one thing I didn't mention is that
00:29:06.890 --> 00:29:10.880
looking for this regulation and looking at
who is the platform that should basically
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.513
have those terms of service we realize
that Wikimedia that actually our platforms
00:29:15.513 --> 00:29:21.210
will actually be in the scope of that. So
not only that may affect the way we can
00:29:21.210 --> 00:29:29.340
document and reference the articles that
are appearing on Wikipedia, on all those
00:29:29.340 --> 00:29:34.090
all those, on the events that are
described or the groups or the political
00:29:34.090 --> 00:29:39.990
situation and what not. But also that, you
know, our community of editors will have
00:29:39.990 --> 00:29:44.792
less and less to say if we have to put a
lot of emphasis on terms of service. I
00:29:44.792 --> 00:29:49.530
just think that we are somehow a
collateral damage of this. But also this
00:29:49.530 --> 00:29:54.860
doesn't console me much because, of
course, Internet is bigger than than our
00:29:54.860 --> 00:30:00.379
projects. And also, we want to make sure
that, that content is not being removed
00:30:00.379 --> 00:30:07.845
elsewhere. So basically the 3 measures are
the removal orders, as I mentioned. And
00:30:07.845 --> 00:30:11.690
this is something that is fairly, fairly
straightforward. And actually, I'm
00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:15.830
wondering why there has to be a special
law to bring it, because, to being
00:30:15.830 --> 00:30:20.410
because the removal order is basically a
decision that the competent authority in
00:30:20.410 --> 00:30:24.950
the member state releases and sends it to
the platform. The problem is that
00:30:24.950 --> 00:30:30.204
according to the commission, the platform
should actually act on it in 1 hour. And
00:30:30.204 --> 00:30:34.586
then again, we ask them why 1 hour and not
74 minutes? And they say, "Well, because
00:30:34.586 --> 00:30:39.705
we actually know", I don't know how, but
they say they do. Let's take it at face
00:30:39.705 --> 00:30:46.250
value. "We actually know that the content
is the most, you know, viral and spreads
00:30:46.250 --> 00:30:50.602
the fastest within, has the biggest range
within the 1 hour from appearance". And
00:30:50.602 --> 00:30:54.475
then we ask them "Well, but how can you
know that? Actually, the people that find
00:30:54.475 --> 00:30:59.800
the content find it exactly on the moment
when it comes up. Maybe it has been around
00:30:59.800 --> 00:31:05.940
for 2 weeks and this 1 hour window when it
went really viral is like long gone". And
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:11.730
here they don't really answer, obviously.
So this is one of the measures
00:31:11.730 --> 00:31:17.090
that I guess makes the most sense out of
all of that. Then we have the referrals
00:31:17.090 --> 00:31:20.100
that we call lazy removal
orders. And this is this is really
00:31:20.100 --> 00:31:23.834
something that is very puzzling for me
because the referral is a situation in
00:31:23.834 --> 00:31:28.090
which this competent authority and the
person working there goes through the
00:31:28.090 --> 00:31:33.480
content, through the videos or postings
and looks at it and says, "Well, I think,
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:38.908
I think it's against the terms of service
of this platform, but does not actually
00:31:38.908 --> 00:31:43.740
release this removal order, but writes to
the platform, let's them know and say,
00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:48.809
"Hey, can you please check this out?" I'm
sorry, I'm confused, is this the time that
00:31:48.809 --> 00:31:56.223
I have left or the time? OK, good, time is
important here. So so basically, you know,
00:31:56.223 --> 00:32:00.250
they are basically, won't spend the time
to prepare this removal order
00:32:00.250 --> 00:32:05.840
and right and take let the platform to,
tell the platform actually to remove it.
00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:09.490
But they will just ask them to please
verify whether this content should be
00:32:09.490 --> 00:32:14.821
there or not. And first of all, this is
the real outsourcing of power
00:32:14.821 --> 00:32:20.063
over the speech and expression. But
also we know how platforms take those
00:32:20.063 --> 00:32:26.240
decisions. They have a very short time.
The people that do it are sitting
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:30.650
somewhere, most probably where the content
is not originating from. So they don't
00:32:30.650 --> 00:32:34.418
understand the context. Sometimes they
don't understand the language. And also,
00:32:34.418 --> 00:32:38.062
you know, it's better to get rid of it
just in case it really is problematic,
00:32:38.062 --> 00:32:42.240
right? So this is something that is
completely increased this great gray area
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:51.559
of information that is controversial
enough to be flagged, but it's not illegal
00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:57.070
enough to be removed by the order. By the
way, the European Parliament actually
00:32:57.070 --> 00:33:03.200
kicked this out from their version. So now
the fight is in this negotiation between
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:07.598
the 3 institutions to actually follow this
recommendation and just remove it, because
00:33:07.598 --> 00:33:13.230
it really does not make sense. And it
really makes the people that
00:33:13.230 --> 00:33:17.700
release those referrals not really
accountable for their decisions
00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:22.449
because they don't take the decision. They
just make a suggestion. And then we have
00:33:22.449 --> 00:33:26.629
the proactive measures, which most
definitely will lead to over-policing of
00:33:26.629 --> 00:33:31.799
content. There is a whole, a very clever
description in the law that basically
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:35.940
boils down to the point that if you are
going to use content filtering and if
00:33:35.940 --> 00:33:40.677
you're going to prevent content from
disappearing, then basically you are
00:33:40.677 --> 00:33:44.320
doing a good job as a platform. And
this is the way to actually deal with
00:33:44.320 --> 00:33:50.648
terrorist content. Since, however we
define it, again, this is very
00:33:50.648 --> 00:33:56.079
context-oriented, very context-dependent.
It's really very difficult to say based on
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:59.829
what sort of criteria and based, based on
what sort of databases those
00:33:59.829 --> 00:34:05.242
automated processes will be, will be
happening. So, of course,
00:34:05.242 --> 00:34:10.159
as it happens in today's world,
Somebody privatizes
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:17.299
the profits, but the losses are
always socialized. And this is now no
00:34:17.299 --> 00:34:23.849
exception from that rule. So, again, when
we were talking to the European Commission
00:34:23.849 --> 00:34:29.320
and asking them, "Why is this not a piece
of legislation that belongs to the
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:36.560
enforcement of the law?" And that is then
not controlled by a heavily by the
00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:40.620
judiciary system and by any other sort of
oversight, that enforcements usually had.
00:34:40.620 --> 00:34:44.460
"They have, well, because, you know,
when we have those videos of beheadings,
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:48.334
they usually don't happen in Europe and
they are really beyond our jurisdiction".
00:34:48.334 --> 00:34:51.628
So, of course, nobody will act on it.
On the very meaningful level of
00:34:51.628 --> 00:34:54.259
actually finding the people
that that are killing,
00:34:54.259 --> 00:34:57.129
that are in the business of
killing others and making
00:34:57.129 --> 00:35:02.873
sure they cannot continue with this
activity. So it's very clear that this
00:35:02.873 --> 00:35:08.470
whole law is about cleaning the Internet
and not really about a meaningfully
00:35:08.470 --> 00:35:18.500
tackling societal problems that lead to
that sort of violence. Also the
00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:22.540
redress, which is the mechanism in which
the user can say, hey, this is not the
00:35:22.540 --> 00:35:26.459
right decision. I actually believe this
content is not illegal at all. And it's
00:35:26.459 --> 00:35:31.397
important for me to say this and this is
my right and I want it to be up. Those,
00:35:31.397 --> 00:35:38.570
those provisions are very weak. You cannot
actually protest meaningfully against a
00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:42.670
removal order of your content. Of course,
you can always take states, the states to
00:35:42.670 --> 00:35:47.640
court. But we know how amazingly
interesting that is and how fast it
00:35:47.640 --> 00:35:53.030
happens. So that, so we can I think we
can agree that there is no meaningful way
00:35:53.030 --> 00:36:00.140
to actually protest. Also, the state may
ask, well, actually, this this removal
00:36:00.140 --> 00:36:05.410
order should... the user should not be
informed that the content has been has
00:36:05.410 --> 00:36:10.690
been taken down because of terrorism.
So. Or depicting terrorism or glorifying
00:36:10.690 --> 00:36:16.193
or whatever. So even you may not even know
why the content is taken down. It will be
00:36:16.193 --> 00:36:22.013
a secret. For referrals and for proactive
measures, well, you know what? Go talk to
00:36:22.013 --> 00:36:26.535
the platform and protest with them. And
then, of course, the other question is, so
00:36:26.535 --> 00:36:30.506
who is the terrorist? Right. Because this
is a very important question that that we
00:36:30.506 --> 00:36:37.589
should have answered if we wanted to... if
we wanted to have a law that actually is
00:36:37.589 --> 00:36:42.330
meaningfully engaging with those issues.
And of course, well, the as you know
00:36:42.330 --> 00:36:48.591
already from what I said, the European
Commission in that particular case does
00:36:48.591 --> 00:36:54.398
not provide a very good answer. But we
have some other responses to that. For
00:36:54.398 --> 00:37:03.367
example, Europol has created a report and
then there was a blog post based on that.
00:37:03.367 --> 00:37:07.622
On the title "On the importance of taking
down non-violent terrorist content".
00:37:07.622 --> 00:37:11.428
So we have the European Commission that
says, "Yes, it's about the beheadings and
00:37:11.428 --> 00:37:15.576
about the mutilations". And we have
Europol that says, "You know, actually
00:37:15.576 --> 00:37:19.879
this non-violent terrorist content is
super important". So basically what they
00:37:19.879 --> 00:37:25.459
say and I quote, "Poetry is a literary
medium that is widely appreciated across
00:37:25.459 --> 00:37:30.457
the Arab world and is an important part
of their region's identity. Mastering it
00:37:30.457 --> 00:37:34.810
provides the poet with singular authority
in Arabic culture. The most prominent
00:37:34.810 --> 00:37:39.660
jihadi leaders - including Osama bin Laden
and former Islamic State spokesman
00:37:39.660 --> 00:37:43.196
Abu Muhammad al-Adnadi - frequently
included poetry in their
00:37:43.196 --> 00:37:46.447
speeches or wrote poems of their own.
Their charisma was
00:37:46.447 --> 00:37:49.380
closely intertwined with their
mastery of poetry."
00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:54.810
So we can see the art that is being made
by Europol between a very important aspect
00:37:54.810 --> 00:37:59.260
of a culture that is beautiful and
enriching and about the fact that this,
00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:03.460
that, that Europol wants it to see it
weaponized. The other part of the blogpost
00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:08.369
was about how ISIS presents interesting
activities that their members... their,
00:38:08.369 --> 00:38:12.531
their... their fighters have. And one of
them is that they are enjoying themselves
00:38:12.531 --> 00:38:16.936
and smiling and spending time together and
swimming. So what? How do we, what do we
00:38:16.936 --> 00:38:20.228
make out of that? So the video of some
brown people swimming are now
00:38:20.228 --> 00:38:27.760
terrorist content? This is... the blatant
racism of, of this, of this communication
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:33.359
really enrages me. And I think it's really
a shame that that nobody called Europol
00:38:33.359 --> 00:38:39.530
out on this, when the blogpost came up. We
also have laws in Europe that are
00:38:39.530 --> 00:38:44.770
different. I mean, this is not the same
legislation, but that actually give the...
00:38:44.770 --> 00:38:51.466
give the the taste of what may happen. One
is the the Spanish law against hate
00:38:51.466 --> 00:38:57.111
speech. And, and this is an important
part. It didn't happen online, but it
00:38:57.111 --> 00:39:02.500
shows the approach, that basically first
you have legislators that say, oh, don't
00:39:02.500 --> 00:39:06.450
worry about this, we really want to go
after bad guys. And then what happens is
00:39:06.450 --> 00:39:10.930
that there was a puppeteer performance
done by 2 people, "The Witch and Don
00:39:10.930 --> 00:39:15.840
Christóbal" and the puppets were
actually... this is the kind of
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:22.890
Punch and Judy performance in which, this
is a genre of, of theater, theatric
00:39:22.890 --> 00:39:30.109
performances, I'm sorry. That is kind of
full of silly jokes and and sometimes
00:39:30.109 --> 00:39:36.000
excessive and and unjustified violence
and, and the, and the full of bad taste.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:40.860
And this is quite serious. And the, the 2
characters in the, the 2 puppets held the
00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:46.400
banner that featured a made-up terrorist
organization. And after that performance,
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:52.410
actually, they were charged with, first of
all, promoting terrorism, even though
00:39:52.410 --> 00:39:55.940
there is no terrorist organization like
that. And then also with inciting,
00:39:55.940 --> 00:40:01.859
inciting hatred. And this is what's one of
the puppeteers said after describing this
00:40:01.859 --> 00:40:07.270
whole horrible experience. Finally, the
charges were dropped. So this is good. But
00:40:07.270 --> 00:40:11.570
I think this really sums up who is the
terrorists and how those laws are being
00:40:11.570 --> 00:40:20.103
used against people who actually have
nothing to do with, with violence. We were
00:40:20.103 --> 00:40:23.981
charged with inciting hatred, which is a
felony created in theory to protect
00:40:23.981 --> 00:40:27.228
vulnerable minorities, the minorities in
this case where the church,
00:40:27.228 --> 00:40:29.868
the police and the legal system.
laughter
00:40:29.868 --> 00:40:33.569
Then, again in Spain, I don't want to
single out this beautiful country, but
00:40:33.569 --> 00:40:36.998
actually, unfortunately, they
have good examples. This is a very recent
00:40:36.998 --> 00:40:44.310
one. So Tsunami Democràtic in Catalonia
created an app to actually help people
00:40:44.310 --> 00:40:49.770
organize small action in a decentralized
manner. And they placed the documentations
00:40:49.770 --> 00:40:56.609
on GitHub. And it was taken down by the
order of, of the Spanish court. And also
00:40:56.609 --> 00:41:01.463
the - and this is the practical
application of such laws online - also,
00:41:01.463 --> 00:41:06.600
the website of Tsunami Democràtic
was taken down by the court. Of course,
00:41:06.600 --> 00:41:10.580
both of that on charges
of of facilitating terrorist
00:41:10.580 --> 00:41:15.790
activities and inciting to
terrorism. So why is it important?
00:41:15.790 --> 00:41:19.776
Because of what comes next. So
there will be the Digital Services Act,
00:41:19.776 --> 00:41:23.651
which will be an overhaul of this idea
that I mentioned at the beginning, which
00:41:23.651 --> 00:41:27.850
is that basically platform are not
responsible by default, by what we put
00:41:27.850 --> 00:41:34.250
online. And European Commission and
other, the European Commission and other
00:41:34.250 --> 00:41:38.070
actors in the EU are toying with the idea
that maybe platforms should be somehow
00:41:38.070 --> 00:41:43.800
responsible. So, of course. And it's not
only about social media, but basically
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:51.180
anybody that any sort of, of a service
that helps people place content online.
00:41:51.180 --> 00:41:54.900
And then, the, one of the ideas, we
don't know what it's going to be, it's not
00:41:54.900 --> 00:41:58.176
there yet. It's going to happen at the
beginning of the next year, so
00:41:58.176 --> 00:42:01.864
quite soon. But we can actually
expect that the so-called "Good Samaritan"
00:42:01.864 --> 00:42:05.704
rule will be 1 of the solutions proposed.
What is this rule? This rule basically
00:42:05.704 --> 00:42:11.090
means if a platform is really going the
extra mile and doing a good job in
00:42:11.090 --> 00:42:16.851
removing the content, that is what... that
is either illegal or again or again, a
00:42:16.851 --> 00:42:22.987
very difficult category, harmful. I also
don't know what that exactly means. Then
00:42:22.987 --> 00:42:27.758
if they behave well, then they will not be
held responsible. So this is basically a
00:42:27.758 --> 00:42:31.838
proposal that you cannot really turn down,
because if you run the business, you want
00:42:31.838 --> 00:42:35.675
to manage the risk of that and you don't
want to be fined. And you and you don't
00:42:35.675 --> 00:42:40.070
want to pay, pay money. So, of course, you
try and overpolice and of course you try
00:42:40.070 --> 00:42:44.120
and you filter the content and of course
you take content when it only raises a
00:42:44.120 --> 00:42:52.320
question what sort of... what sort of
content that is. Is it neutral or
00:42:52.320 --> 00:43:00.330
is it maybe, you know, making somebody
offended or... or stirred? And, of course,
00:43:00.330 --> 00:43:05.480
other attempts, we heard it from Germany.
Which is basically that there wasn't a
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:15.220
proposal to actually make... oblige.. like
make platforms obliged to give passwords
00:43:15.220 --> 00:43:21.193
of users of social media. The people that
are under investigation or prosecution.
00:43:21.193 --> 00:43:26.829
And also, of course, we see that one of
the ideas that supposedly is going to fix
00:43:26.829 --> 00:43:31.677
everything is that, well, if terrorists
communicate through encrypted services,
00:43:31.677 --> 00:43:35.485
then maybe we should do something about
encryption. And there was a petition
00:43:35.485 --> 00:43:41.890
already on (?) to actually go in to
actually forbid encryption for those
00:43:41.890 --> 00:43:46.540
services after one of the one of the
terrorist attacks. So, of course, it
00:43:46.540 --> 00:43:53.109
sounds, it sounds very extreme. But
this is, in my opinion, the next the next
00:43:53.109 --> 00:44:00.383
frontier here. So what can we do? Because
this is all quite difficult. So as I
00:44:00.383 --> 00:44:04.920
mentioned, the negotiations are still on.
So there is still time to talk to
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:08.880
your government. And this is very import
because, of course, the governments, when
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:12.850
they have this idea... they have this
proposal on the table, that they will be
00:44:12.850 --> 00:44:18.360
able to decide finally who is
the terrorist and what is the terrorist
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:23.000
content. And also, that's on one hand. On
the other hand, they know that people
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:26.650
don't really care all that much about what
happens in the E.U., which is
00:44:26.650 --> 00:44:31.383
unfortunately true. They are actually
supporting very much the commission's
00:44:31.383 --> 00:44:35.188
proposals. The only thing that they don't
like is the fact that somebody from the
00:44:35.188 --> 00:44:41.710
police, from other country can maybe
interfere with content in their language,
00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:46.570
because that's one of the provisions that
that also is there. So, so this is what
00:44:46.570 --> 00:44:50.950
they don't like. They want to keep their
there the territoriality of their
00:44:50.950 --> 00:44:56.701
enforcement laws intact. But there is
still time and we can still do this. And
00:44:56.701 --> 00:45:00.220
if you want to talk to me about
what are the good ways to do it, I'm
00:45:00.220 --> 00:45:04.778
available here. And I would love to take
that conversation up with you. The other
00:45:04.778 --> 00:45:11.374
is a very simple measure that I believe is
is always working. Is one that basically
00:45:11.374 --> 00:45:16.119
is about telling just 1 friend, even 1
friend, and asking them to do the same to
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:20.134
talk to other people about this. And there
are 2 reasons to do it. One is because, of
00:45:20.134 --> 00:45:23.666
course, then we make people aware of what
it happens. And the other in this
00:45:23.666 --> 00:45:29.350
particular case that is very important is
that basically people are scared of
00:45:29.350 --> 00:45:33.284
terrorism and, and they support a lot of
measures just because they hear this word.
00:45:33.284 --> 00:45:36.999
And when we explain, that, what that
really means and when we unpack this a
00:45:36.999 --> 00:45:40.392
little bit, we build the resilience to
those arguments. And I think it's
00:45:40.392 --> 00:45:43.017
important. The other people
who should know about this
00:45:43.017 --> 00:45:46.377
are activists working with
vulnerable groups because of the
00:45:46.377 --> 00:45:50.355
stigmatization that I
already mentioned and because
00:45:50.355 --> 00:45:54.804
of the fact that we need to document
horrible things that are happening to
00:45:54.804 --> 00:45:58.703
people in other places in the world and
also here in Europe. And journalists
00:45:58.703 --> 00:46:02.824
and media organizations, because they
will be affected by this law. And by the
00:46:02.824 --> 00:46:06.918
way, how they can report and where they
can they can get the sources for their
00:46:06.918 --> 00:46:12.025
information. So I think I went massively
over time from what it was planned. I hope
00:46:12.025 --> 00:46:16.760
we can still have some questions. Thank
you. So, yeah. Talk to me more about this
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:23.058
now and then after the talk. Thank you.
00:46:23.058 --> 00:46:33.057
applause
00:46:33.057 --> 00:46:37.310
Herald: Thanks for your talk. We still
have time for questions, so please, if you
00:46:37.310 --> 00:46:42.600
have a question, line up at the mics. We
have 1, 2, 3 evenly distributed through
00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:47.231
the room. I want to remind you really
quickly that a question normally is one
00:46:47.231 --> 00:46:50.520
sentence and ends with a question mark.
laughter
00:46:50.520 --> 00:46:55.530
Not everybody seems to know that. So we
start with mic number 2.
00:46:55.530 --> 00:47:02.460
Mic2: Hello. I... so I run Tor Relays in
the United States. It seems like a lot of
00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:07.570
these laws are focused on the notion of
centralized platforms. Do they define what
00:47:07.570 --> 00:47:12.400
a platform is and are they going to
extradite me because I am facilitating Tor
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:16.249
Onion service?
A: Should we answer, no?
00:47:16.249 --> 00:47:21.895
H: Yeah.
A: Okay, yes, so they do and they don't
00:47:21.895 --> 00:47:26.000
in a way that the definition it's
based on basically what
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:30.839
the the hosting provider
is in in the European law is
00:47:30.839 --> 00:47:36.089
actually very broad. So it doesn't take
into account the fact how big you are or
00:47:36.089 --> 00:47:42.420
how you run your services. The bottom line
is that if you allow people to put content
00:47:42.420 --> 00:47:47.161
up and share it with, again, 3rd party,
which may be the whole room here, it may
00:47:47.161 --> 00:47:51.460
be the whole world but it may be just the
people I want to share things to with.
00:47:51.460 --> 00:47:57.750
Then then you're obliged to to use the
measures that are... or, or to comply with
00:47:57.750 --> 00:48:01.940
the measures that are envisioned in this
regulation. And there is a there's a
00:48:01.940 --> 00:48:06.590
debate also in the parliament. It was
taken up and narrowed down actually to the
00:48:06.590 --> 00:48:11.520
communication to the public. So I guess
then as you correctly observe, it is more
00:48:11.520 --> 00:48:17.130
about about the big platforms or about the
centralized services. But actually the, in
00:48:17.130 --> 00:48:20.849
the commission version, nothing makes me
believe that, that only then will be
00:48:20.849 --> 00:48:26.358
affected. On the contrary, also the, the
messaging services may be.
00:48:26.358 --> 00:48:34.880
H: Okay, um, next question, mic number 3.
Mic3: Is it, uh, a photo with the upload
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:41.250
filters, the copyright directive, it was
really similar debate, especially on
00:48:41.250 --> 00:48:46.589
small companies, because, um, uh, at that
time, the question was they tried to push
00:48:46.589 --> 00:48:51.010
upload filters for copyright content. And
the question was, uh, how does that fit
00:48:51.010 --> 00:48:55.871
with small companies? And they still
haven't provided an answer to that. Uh,
00:48:55.871 --> 00:48:59.560
the problem is they took the copyright
directive and basically inspired
00:48:59.560 --> 00:49:04.041
themselves from the upload filters and
applied it to terrorist content. And it's
00:49:04.041 --> 00:49:07.928
again, the question, how does that work
with small Internet companies that have to
00:49:07.928 --> 00:49:13.788
have someone on call during the
nights and things like that. So even big
00:49:13.788 --> 00:49:17.380
providers, I heard they don't have the
means to, to properly enforce that
00:49:17.380 --> 00:49:22.569
something like this, this is a
killer for the European Internet industry.
00:49:22.569 --> 00:49:26.060
A: Yes.
laughter
00:49:26.060 --> 00:49:32.230
applause
H: I want to give a short reminder on the
00:49:32.230 --> 00:49:39.339
1 sentence rule. We have a question from
the Internet. Signal angel, please.
00:49:39.339 --> 00:49:44.696
Signal Angel: Yes, what, the question is,
wouldn't decentralized social networks
00:49:44.696 --> 00:49:52.429
bypass these regulations?
A: I'm not a lawyer, but I will give a
00:49:52.429 --> 00:49:55.902
question, I give an answer to this
question that the lawyer would give,
00:49:55.902 --> 00:49:58.709
I maybe spent too much time with lawyers.
That depends.
00:49:58.709 --> 00:50:01.220
laughter
A: Because it really does, because this
00:50:01.220 --> 00:50:05.800
definition of who is obliged is so broad
that a lot depends on the context, a lot
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:10.940
depends on what is happening, what is
being shared and how. So it's, it's very
00:50:10.940 --> 00:50:14.718
difficult to say. I just want to say that
we also had this conversation about
00:50:14.718 --> 00:50:20.489
copyright and many people came to me last
year at Congress. I wasn't giving a talk
00:50:20.489 --> 00:50:24.806
about it, but I was at the talk about the
copyright directive and the filtering. And
00:50:24.806 --> 00:50:28.649
many people said, well, actually, you
know, if you're not using those services,
00:50:28.649 --> 00:50:32.540
you will not be affected. And actually,
when we share peer to peer, then this is
00:50:32.540 --> 00:50:36.820
not an issue. But actually, this is
changing. And there is actually
00:50:36.820 --> 00:50:41.959
a decision of the European Court of
Justice. And the decisions are not like
00:50:41.959 --> 00:50:45.242
basically the law, but basically they
are very often then followed and
00:50:45.242 --> 00:50:49.319
incorporated. And this is the... and this
is the decision on the Pirate Bay and
00:50:49.319 --> 00:50:53.680
in... on Pirate Bay. And in this decision,
the court says that, well, the argument
00:50:53.680 --> 00:50:57.716
that Pirate Bay made was basically we're
not hosting any content. We're just
00:50:57.716 --> 00:51:03.986
connecting people with it. And in short,
and the court said, well,
00:51:03.986 --> 00:51:09.148
actually, we don't care. Because you
organize it, you optimize it, you like
00:51:09.148 --> 00:51:12.269
the info, you optimize the
information, you bring it to people.
00:51:12.269 --> 00:51:15.696
And the fact that you don't share
it does not really mean anything. And
00:51:15.696 --> 00:51:20.280
you are liable for the, for the copyright
infringements. So, again, this is about a
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:26.700
different issue, but this is a very
relevant way of thinking that we may
00:51:26.700 --> 00:51:30.670
expect that it will be translated into
other types of content. So, again, the
00:51:30.670 --> 00:51:36.040
fact that that you don't host anything but
you just connect people to one another
00:51:36.040 --> 00:51:42.480
will not be... may not be something that,
that will take you off the hook.
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:49.190
H: Microphone number 3.
Mic3: Do these proposals contain or...
00:51:49.190 --> 00:51:54.572
what sort of repercussions do these
proposals contained for filing a request,
00:51:54.572 --> 00:51:58.921
removal requests that are later determined
to be illegitimate? Is this just a free
00:51:58.921 --> 00:52:03.460
pass to censor things? Or can.... are
there repercussions?
00:52:03.460 --> 00:52:07.619
A: You... just want to make sure I
understand, you mean the removal orders,
00:52:07.619 --> 00:52:09.867
the ones that say remove content, and
that's it?
00:52:09.867 --> 00:52:13.450
Mic3: Yeah. If somebody files a removal
order that is determined later to be
00:52:13.450 --> 00:52:16.868
completely illegitimate. Are there
repercussions?
00:52:16.868 --> 00:52:22.882
A: Well, the problem starts even before
that because again, the removal orders are
00:52:22.882 --> 00:52:26.839
being issued by competent authorities. So
there's like a designated authority that
00:52:26.839 --> 00:52:31.206
can do it. Not everybody can. And
basically, the order says this is the
00:52:31.206 --> 00:52:36.410
content. This is the URL. This is the
legal basis. Take it down. So there is no
00:52:36.410 --> 00:52:41.452
way to protest it. And the platform can
only not follow this order within 1 hour
00:52:41.452 --> 00:52:46.094
in 2 situations. One is that the force
majeure, that is usually the issue.
00:52:46.094 --> 00:52:49.706
Basically, there's some sort of external
circumstance that prevents them from
00:52:49.706 --> 00:52:52.432
doing it. I don't know.
Complete power outage
00:52:52.432 --> 00:52:55.272
or problem with their servers
that basically they cannot
00:52:55.272 --> 00:52:59.550
access and remove or block access
to this content. The other is if the
00:52:59.550 --> 00:53:04.796
request... the removal order, I'm sorry,
contains errors that actually make it
00:53:04.796 --> 00:53:09.300
impossible to do. So, for example, there
is no URL or it's broken and it doesn't
00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:13.565
lead anywhere. And these are the only 2
situations. In the rest, the content has
00:53:13.565 --> 00:53:19.839
to be removed. And there is no way for the
user and no way for the platform
00:53:19.839 --> 00:53:23.829
to actually say, well, hold on, this is
not the way to do it. And therefore, after
00:53:23.829 --> 00:53:28.690
it's being implemented to say, well, that
was a bad decision. As I said, you can
00:53:28.690 --> 00:53:33.569
always go to court with the, with your
state, but not many people will do it.
00:53:33.569 --> 00:53:39.223
And this is not really a meaningful
way to address this.
00:53:39.223 --> 00:53:46.260
H: Next question. Mic number 3.
Mic3: How many... how much time do we have
00:53:46.260 --> 00:53:50.890
to contact the parliamentarians to inform
them maybe that there is some big issue
00:53:50.890 --> 00:53:55.450
with this? What's the worst case
timetable at the moment?
00:53:55.450 --> 00:53:59.630
A: That's a very good question. And thank
you for asking because... this ... because
00:53:59.630 --> 00:54:05.020
I forgot to mention this. That actually is
quite urgent. So the commission wanted to,
00:54:05.020 --> 00:54:10.210
like usually, in those situations, the
commission wanted to close the thing until
00:54:10.210 --> 00:54:14.631
the end of the year and they didn't manage
it because there is no, no agreement
00:54:14.631 --> 00:54:20.240
on those most pressing issues.
But we expect that the, the best
00:54:20.240 --> 00:54:25.900
case scenario is that until March, maybe
until June, it will probably happen
00:54:25.900 --> 00:54:31.280
earlier. It may be the next couple of
months. And there will be lots of meetings
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:36.950
about about that. So this is more or less
the timeline. It's, there's no sort of
00:54:36.950 --> 00:54:41.507
external deadline for this, right, so this
is just an estimation and of course,
00:54:41.507 --> 00:54:44.320
it may change, but, but this is what we
expect.
00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:46.950
H: We have another question from the
Internet.
00:54:46.950 --> 00:54:52.500
S: Does this law considers that
such content is used for psychological
00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:58.748
warfare by big nations?
A: I'm sorry. I... Again, please.
00:54:58.748 --> 00:55:04.130
S: This, this content is, pictures or
video of whatsever, does this law
00:55:04.130 --> 00:55:08.520
consider that such content is used for
psychological warfare?
00:55:08.520 --> 00:55:17.730
A: Well, I'm trying to see how that
relates. I think the law is... does not go
00:55:17.730 --> 00:55:24.589
into details like that in a way. Which
means that I can go back to the definition
00:55:24.589 --> 00:55:31.740
that basically it's just about the fact
that if the content appears to be positive
00:55:31.740 --> 00:55:37.550
about terrorist activities, then that's
the basis of taking it down. But there's
00:55:37.550 --> 00:55:42.350
nothing else that is being actually said
about that. It's not more nuanced than
00:55:42.350 --> 00:55:48.590
that. So I guess the answer is no.
H: One last question from mic number 2.
00:55:48.590 --> 00:55:54.690
Mic2: Are there, in... any case studies
published on successful application of
00:55:54.690 --> 00:55:59.035
alike laws in other countries? I asked
because we have alike laws in
00:55:59.035 --> 00:56:06.718
Russia for 12 years and it's not that
useful as far as I see.
00:56:06.718 --> 00:56:11.218
A: Not that I know of. So I think
it's also a very difficult
00:56:11.218 --> 00:56:15.840
thing to research because we
can only research what, what we
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:21.181
know that happened. Right? In a way that
you have to have people that actually are
00:56:21.181 --> 00:56:27.210
vocal about this and that complain about
these laws not being enforced in the
00:56:27.210 --> 00:56:32.030
proper way. So, for example, content that
taken down is completely about something
00:56:32.030 --> 00:56:39.113
else, which also sometimes happens. And,
and that's very difficult. I think
00:56:39.113 --> 00:56:45.330
the biggest question here is
whether there is an amount of studies
00:56:45.330 --> 00:56:49.920
documenting that something does not work
that would prevent the European Union from
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:56.710
actually having this legislative fever.
And I would argue that not, because, as
00:56:56.710 --> 00:57:00.859
they said, they don't have really good
arguments or they don't really have good
00:57:00.859 --> 00:57:05.829
numbers to justify bringing this law at
all. Not to mention bringing the
00:57:05.829 --> 00:57:12.418
ridiculous measures that they propose.
So what we say sometimes
00:57:12.418 --> 00:57:15.631
in Brussels when we're very frustrated
that we we were hoping, you
00:57:15.631 --> 00:57:21.309
know, being there and advocating for for
human rights, is that we... we hoped
00:57:21.309 --> 00:57:26.000
for... that we can contribute to evidence
based policy. But actually, what's
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:31.678
happening, it's a policy based evidence.
And, and this is the difficult part. So I
00:57:31.678 --> 00:57:37.819
am all for studies and I am all for
presenting information that, you know, may
00:57:37.819 --> 00:57:41.734
possibly help legislators. There are
definitely some MEP or some people there,
00:57:41.734 --> 00:57:45.599
even probably in the commission. Maybe
they just are not allowed to voice
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:50.650
their opinion on this because it's a
highly political issue that would wish to
00:57:50.650 --> 00:57:54.930
have those studies or would wish to be
able to use them. And that believe in
00:57:54.930 --> 00:58:00.779
that. But it's just, it doesn't
translate into the political process.
00:58:00.779 --> 00:58:06.682
H: Okay. Time's up. If you have any
more questions, you can come
00:58:06.682 --> 00:58:09.564
up and approach Anna later.
A: Yes.
00:58:09.564 --> 00:58:14.498
H: There is please. Thanks.
So first for me.
00:58:14.498 --> 00:58:17.060
Thanks for the talk. Thanks for
patiently answer...
00:58:17.060 --> 00:58:20.899
36c3 postroll music
00:58:20.899 --> 00:58:43.000
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