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Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:20.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}36c3 preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.87,0:00:24.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: ...but now we start what we're\Nhere for and I'm really happy to be
Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.39,0:00:30.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allowed to introduce Anna Mazgal. She will\Ntalk about something which a great title.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.55,0:00:36.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I love it. "Confessions of a Future\NTerrorist". Terror, terrorism is the one
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.40,0:00:40.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing you can always shout out and you get\Neverything through. And she will give us a
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.45,0:00:47.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rough guide to overregulate free speech\Nwith anti-terrorist measures. Anna works
Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.59,0:00:51.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for Wikimedia where she's a lobbyist of\Nhuman rights into the digital environment
Dialogue: 0,0:00:51.95,0:00:56.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and works in Brussels. And she gives a lot\Nof talk. And I think it's the first time
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.81,0:00:59.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at a congress for her, is that right?\NAnna: Second time.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:59.43,0:01:03.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Second time? I haven't really\Nresearched right, because I searched for
Dialogue: 0,0:01:03.33,0:01:08.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it. So I have to do this again. It's her\N2nd time for congress and I'm really
Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.36,0:01:12.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happy to have her here. Please welcome her\Nwith a big round of applause.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:12.30,0:01:22.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Anna, the stage is yours.\NAnna: Thank you. Yes. So as you have
Dialogue: 0,0:01:22.24,0:01:27.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already heard, I don't do any of the cool\Nthings that we comedians and Wikipedians
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.60,0:01:34.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do. I am based in Brussels and the\NL-word, I do the lobbying on behalf of our
Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.39,0:01:42.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,community. And today I am here because I\Nwanted to talk to you about one of the
Dialogue: 0,0:01:42.85,0:01:48.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposals of 4 laws that we are now\Nobserving the development of. And I wanted
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.33,0:01:53.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to share my concerns also like active, as\Nan activist, because I'm really worried
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.20,0:01:58.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how, if that law passes in its worst\Npossible vision or one of the of the bad
Dialogue: 0,0:01:58.07,0:02:02.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,versions, how it will affect my work. I'm\Nalso concerned how it would it will affect
Dialogue: 0,0:02:02.16,0:02:09.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your work. And basically all of ours\Nexpression online. And I also want to
Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.39,0:02:16.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,share with you that this law makes me\Nreally angry. So, so I think these are a
Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.42,0:02:22.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,few good reasons to be here and to talk to\Nyou. And I hope after this presentation we
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.69,0:02:26.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can have a conversation about this. And\NI'm looking forward also to your
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.37,0:02:34.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perspective on it and, and also the things\Nyou may not agree with maybe. So, so what
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.38,0:02:41.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is this law? So, in September 2018, the\NEuropean Commission came out with a
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.59,0:02:46.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposal of regulation on preventing\Nthe dissemination of terrorist content
Dialogue: 0,0:02:46.38,0:02:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,online. So there are a few things to\Nunpack here of for what it is about. First
Dialogue: 0,0:02:53.80,0:02:58.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of all, when we see a law that is about\NInternet and that is about the content and
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.95,0:03:03.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what is about the online environment and\Nit says it will prevent something, this
Dialogue: 0,0:03:03.02,0:03:09.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,always brings a very difficult and\Ncomplicated perspective for us, the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:09.30,0:03:13.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,digital rights activists in Brussels.\NBecause prevention online never means
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.57,0:03:19.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anything good. So, so this is one thing.\NThe other thing is that this very troubled
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.68,0:03:24.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,concept of terrorist content, I will be\Ntalking about this more, we will talk, I
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.36,0:03:28.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will show you how the European Commission\Nunderstands it and what are the problems
Dialogue: 0,0:03:28.62,0:03:33.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with that understanding and whether this\Nis something that can actually be really
Dialogue: 0,0:03:33.39,0:03:42.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,defined in the law. So, so these are the,\Nthe already the red flags that I have seen
Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.19,0:03:48.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we have seen when we were, when we\Nfirst got them, the proposal, into our
Dialogue: 0,0:03:48.35,0:03:53.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hands. I would like to tell you a little\Nbit about the framework of it. This is
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.03,0:04:01.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably the, the most dry part of that,\Nbut I think it's important to correctly
Dialogue: 0,0:04:01.31,0:04:07.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,place it. First of all, this is the\NEuropean Union legislation. So we're
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.05,0:04:15.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talking about the legislation that will\Ninfluence 27 member states. Maybe 28, but
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.74,0:04:23.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we know about Brexit, so, so that is a\Ndebatable what's going to happen there.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.35,0:04:29.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's important to note that whenever\Nwe have European legislation in the EU,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.02,0:04:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is the, these are the laws that\Nactually are shaping the laws of all those
Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.60,0:04:40.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,countries. And they come before the\Nnational laws. So, so should this, should
Dialogue: 0,0:04:40.28,0:04:45.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this be implemented in any of the form,\Nwhen it's implemented in any of the form,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.59,0:04:52.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is what is going to happen. The next\Nimportant part of information that I want
Dialogue: 0,0:04:52.52,0:04:56.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to give you is that this particular\Nregulation is a part of the framework that
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.93,0:05:03.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is called Digital Single Market. So the\NEuropean Union, one of, one of the
Dialogue: 0,0:05:03.32,0:05:09.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,objectives when a European\NCommission created the law and when other
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.27,0:05:14.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bodies of the European Union work on it,\Nis that there is, that, that the laws in
Dialogue: 0,0:05:14.56,0:05:20.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the member states of the\NEuropean Union are actually similar. And
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.54,0:05:25.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Digital Single Market means that what\Nwe want, we want to achieve something on
Dialogue: 0,0:05:25.99,0:05:30.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Internet that in a way is already\Nachieved within the European Union
Dialogue: 0,0:05:30.57,0:05:35.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,geographically, meaning that we don't want\Nthe borders on the Internet between people
Dialogue: 0,0:05:35.95,0:05:40.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communicating and also delivering goods\Nand services in the European Union.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:40.66,0:05:44.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you may ask how that connects with\Nthe terrorist content and how
Dialogue: 0,0:05:44.58,0:05:50.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that connects with what today's topics. To\Nbe honest, I am also puzzled because I
Dialogue: 0,0:05:50.09,0:05:57.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think, that legislation that talks about\Nhow people communicate online and what is
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.47,0:06:01.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,considered the speech that we wanted there\Nand we don't want this should not be a
Dialogue: 0,0:06:01.65,0:06:08.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,part of a framework that is about market.\NSo this is also something that
Dialogue: 0,0:06:08.13,0:06:18.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,brings a concern. Also, as you've seen at\Nthe first slide, this piece of
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.34,0:06:23.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legislation, this proposal is called the\Nregulation. And not to go too much into
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.53,0:06:30.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,details about what are the forms of\Nlegislation in the EU, the important thing
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.88,0:06:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to know here is that the regulation is a\Nlaw that once it is adopted by the EU,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:37.36,0:06:43.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,once the parliament votes on it, it\Nstarts, it is binding directly in
Dialogue: 0,0:06:43.53,0:06:48.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the member states of the European\NUnion, which means that there is no
Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.12,0:06:52.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,further discussion on how this should be\Nactually used. Of course, in each country
Dialogue: 0,0:06:52.88,0:06:57.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are different decisions being made\Nby different bodies. But it means for us,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:57.51,0:07:02.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people that work on this and that want\Nto influence the legislative process, that
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.10,0:07:05.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,once this law is out of Brussels, there\Nis nothing much to be done
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.91,0:07:13.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about how it's going to be\Nimplemented. And this is
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.78,0:07:18.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important because for now, the discussion\Nabout this, because for us, the discussion
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.78,0:07:23.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about this, is the one that happens in\NBrussels. There are a few versions of the
Dialogue: 0,0:07:23.76,0:07:29.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law. And very quickly, European Commission\Nproposes the law. European Parliament
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.30,0:07:34.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looks at it, debates it, and then produces\Nits own version of it. So amends it or
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.39,0:07:39.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,makes it worse. And then the Council of\Nthe EU, which is the gathering of all the
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.20,0:07:42.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,member states and the\Nrepresentatives of the government of the
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.76,0:07:46.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,member states, also creates their own\Nversion. And then, of course, when you
Dialogue: 0,0:07:46.45,0:07:49.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have 3 versions, you also need to have a\Nlot of conversations and a lot of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:49.93,0:07:54.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,negotiation, how to put this together into\None. And all of those bodies have their
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.26,0:07:59.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,own ideas. Every one of those bodies\Nhave their own ideas on how any law should
Dialogue: 0,0:07:59.71,0:08:04.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,look like. So this process is not only\Ncomplicated, but also this negotiation
Dialogue: 0,0:08:04.95,0:08:10.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is called the trilogs. It's actually\Nvery non-transparent. And there is no or
Dialogue: 0,0:08:10.95,0:08:15.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost none, no official information about\Nhow those negotiations go, what are the
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.68,0:08:20.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,versions of the document and so on. This\Nis the part that we are now in. And I will
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.53,0:08:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talk more about this later on. Today I\Nwant to talk to you about the potential
Dialogue: 0,0:08:26.00,0:08:31.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consequences of diversion. That is the\Noriginal one, which is the European
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.32,0:08:36.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Commission's version. And it's because it\Nwill be very complicated and
Dialogue: 0,0:08:36.45,0:08:40.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,confusing I guess, if we look at all of\Nthe proposals that are on the table. But
Dialogue: 0,0:08:40.66,0:08:45.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also, it's important because European\NCommission has a lot of influence also
Dialogue: 0,0:08:45.18,0:08:53.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,informally, both on member states and also\Non - to an extent - on the whole trial
Dialogue: 0,0:08:53.53,0:08:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,process. So whatever gains we have in\Nother versions or whatever better
Dialogue: 0,0:08:59.34,0:09:05.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,solutions we have there, they are not\Nsecure yet. And I promise I'm almost
Dialogue: 0,0:09:05.33,0:09:10.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,done with this part. There is other\Nrelevant legislation that we'll
Dialogue: 0,0:09:10.52,0:09:15.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consider. One is the E-Commerce Directive.\NAnd in this, the part that is
Dialogue: 0,0:09:15.78,0:09:20.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very relevant is for this particular\Nconversation, is that the platforms,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:20.90,0:09:27.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,according to this law or Internet services\Nor hosting providers are not by default
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.71,0:09:32.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,responsible for the content that users\Nplay, place online. So it's a very
Dialogue: 0,0:09:32.73,0:09:38.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important premise that also protects us,\Nprotects our rights, protects our privacy,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:38.83,0:09:47.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the they are not, they cannot\Ngo after us or they cannot look for, for
Dialogue: 0,0:09:47.24,0:09:50.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the content that could be potentially\Nillegal, which would mean that they would
Dialogue: 0,0:09:50.97,0:09:55.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to look into everything. But of\Ncourse, they have to react when somebody
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.54,0:10:01.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,notifies them and they have to see whether\Nthe information that is placed by the
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.42,0:10:08.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,users should stay up or not. There is also\Na directive on combating terrorism. And
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.03,0:10:13.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is the piece of legislation that\Nis quite recent to my best
Dialogue: 0,0:10:13.19,0:10:17.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knowledge. Not all countries in the\NEuropean Union, not all member states have
Dialogue: 0,0:10:17.36,0:10:23.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,implemented it yet. So for us, it was also\Nvery puzzling that we actually have a new
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.11,0:10:29.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law, a new proposal that is talking about\Nthe communication part of, of what already
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.96,0:10:33.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has been mentioned in this directive. When\Nwe still don't know how it works, we still
Dialogue: 0,0:10:33.99,0:10:39.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't know because this law is physically\Nnot being used at all. So this was for
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.49,0:10:46.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,us also difficult to understand why the\Ncommission does not want to wait and see
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.17,0:10:55.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how like what comes out from the\Ndirective on combating terrorism. So
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.02,0:11:00.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why would the European Commission and why\Nthe European legislators would
Dialogue: 0,0:11:00.50,0:11:06.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually want such a law that, again,\Nis about the content that people post
Dialogue: 0,0:11:06.27,0:11:17.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through different services and why this is\Nan important issue. If this is, why this
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.05,0:11:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issue is actually conflated with\Nthe market questions and the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.84,0:11:28.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,harmonization in the digital market. So\Nthere are some serious numbers here. 94 %
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.65,0:11:33.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and 99 %. And I'm wondering if you have\Nany idea what those numbers are about.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:33.61,0:11:36.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Audience: Persons.\NAnna: I'm sorry?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:36.22,0:11:41.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Audience: Persons.\NAnna: Yes. It's about people. But the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.35,0:11:46.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,numbers are actually presenting, so there\Nwas a survey done by Eurostat and those
Dialogue: 0,0:11:46.81,0:11:52.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,numbers present the percentage of\Npeople first number 94 % presents the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:52.42,0:11:59.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,percentage of people that say that they\Nhave not come across terrorist content
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.21,0:12:09.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,online. Right. So, inversely, only 6 %\Nof people actually say that they had
Dialogue: 0,0:12:09.10,0:12:13.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,access to terrorist content, it's\Nimportant to underline that they say it
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.11,0:12:19.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there's no way to check what that\Ncontent actually was and of course we can,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.32,0:12:25.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, here is the analogy of what a\Ncertain American judge said about
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.16,0:12:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pornography. I know it when I see it. It's\Nnot a very good definition of anything,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:29.42,0:12:36.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really. So I would argue that actually\N6 % of people being affected by something
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.46,0:12:40.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is not really a big percentage and that\Nthe European Union actually has bigger
Dialogue: 0,0:12:40.30,0:12:45.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problems to deal with and where they can\Nspend money and energy on. E.g., we are
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.95,0:12:49.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all affected by, I don't know, air\Npollution and that's much more people.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:49.98,0:12:57.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,89% are the people in the age range\Nbetween 15 and 24. But again, were not
Dialogue: 0,0:12:57.26,0:13:00.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,affected by something what they would\Nconsider terrorist content. Of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:00.98,0:13:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would somebody think of the children?\NThere you go.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:04.13,0:13:08.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The children and young people do\Nnot also experience
Dialogue: 0,0:13:08.02,0:13:15.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it in an overwhelming,\Noverwhelmingly. So, but this rationale
Dialogue: 0,0:13:15.92,0:13:22.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is being used, 6 % and 11 % as one\Nof the reasons why this regulation is
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.57,0:13:27.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important, why this law is important. The\Nother is the exposure to, the other reason
Dialogue: 0,0:13:27.38,0:13:32.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the exposure to imagery of violent\Ncrimes via social media. So, of course, we
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.47,0:13:38.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know that, that platforms such as Facebook\Nand YouTube contain all sorts of things
Dialogue: 0,0:13:38.47,0:13:43.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that people look. We also know that\Nbecause of their business models, they
Dialogue: 0,0:13:43.48,0:13:54.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sometimes push controversial content or\Nviolent content into, into peoples
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.69,0:13:59.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposal, that the proposals that\Nthey give to people to, to watch or to
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.57,0:14:06.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,read. So this is, actually the 2nd part\Nis not addressed by this, by this
Dialogue: 0,0:14:06.03,0:14:11.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposal at all. But nevertheless,\Nwhenever we talk to the representatives of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:11.88,0:14:17.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the commission why this law is there, they\Nstart waving, that was my experience that
Dialogue: 0,0:14:17.06,0:14:21.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the one of the meetings, the person\Nstarted waving his phone at me and saying,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:21.50,0:14:25.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Well, you know, there are beheading\Nvideos online and I can show you how
Dialogue: 0,0:14:25.22,0:14:27.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,horrible it is", which I consider\Nto be an emotional
Dialogue: 0,0:14:27.79,0:14:32.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,blackmail at best, but not really a\Ngood regulatory impulse.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:32.11,0:14:36.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I guess maybe the commission\Npeople are somehow
Dialogue: 0,0:14:36.73,0:14:41.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mysteriously affected by that content more\Nthan anything else. I don't mean to joke
Dialogue: 0,0:14:41.63,0:14:49.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about those, those videos because of\Ncourse, it is not something that I would
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.16,0:14:54.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to watch and, and it is very violent.\NBut I would also argue that the problem is
Dialogue: 0,0:14:54.86,0:14:58.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not that the video is there, but that\Nsomebody has been beheaded. And this is
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.97,0:15:02.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we should actually direct our\Nattention and look for the sources of that
Dialogue: 0,0:15:02.71,0:15:08.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of behavior and not only to try and\Nclean the Internet. The other reason why,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:08.89,0:15:16.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why this law should be enacted is a\Nradicalisation. Of course, this is a,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.87,0:15:21.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is a problem for certain\Nvulnerable populations and people. And we
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.90,0:15:25.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can read about it a lot. And there are\Norganizations that are dealing with
Dialogue: 0,0:15:25.97,0:15:31.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strategies to counteract radicalisation.\NAgain, when we look at the evidence, what
Dialogue: 0,0:15:31.72,0:15:38.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the, what is the relationship between\Ncontent that is available online and the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:38.46,0:15:42.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fact that people get radicalized in\Ndifferent level, in different ways, that
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.59,0:15:46.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we didn't see any research and the\Ncommission also did not present any
Dialogue: 0,0:15:46.06,0:15:50.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,research that would actually point to at\Nleast the correlation between the two. So
Dialogue: 0,0:15:50.87,0:15:56.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again, asked about, so "How did you come\Nup with this idea since without really
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.65,0:16:02.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually showing the, the support for your\Nclaim that radicalisation is connected to
Dialogue: 0,0:16:02.82,0:16:08.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that?" This is a quote from a meeting\Nthat happened public and journalists were
Dialogue: 0,0:16:08.52,0:16:12.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there. Again, the person from the\Ncommission said, "We had to make a guess,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:12.59,0:16:18.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we made the guess that way." There is\Nthe guess being, yes, there is some sort
Dialogue: 0,0:16:18.56,0:16:23.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of connection between the content and the\Nradicalisation. And then finally, when we
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.50,0:16:27.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,read the impact assessment and when we\Nlook at the different articles, that or
Dialogue: 0,0:16:27.56,0:16:33.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different explanations that the European\NCommission posts about the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.03,0:16:38.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rationale for this law, of course, they\Nbring the terrorists attack that have
Dialogue: 0,0:16:38.85,0:16:47.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been happening and they make, they swiftly\Ngo from naming the different violent
Dialogue: 0,0:16:47.30,0:16:52.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,events that have happened in\NEurope very recently or quite recently.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.93,0:16:58.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they swiftly make a connection between\Nthe fact that somebody took a truck and
Dialogue: 0,0:16:58.46,0:17:05.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and run into a group of people. Or that\Nsomebody was participating in the shooting
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.50,0:17:10.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or organizing the shooting of people\Nenjoying themselves.They swiftly go from
Dialogue: 0,0:17:10.42,0:17:15.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this to the fact that regulation of the\Ncontent is needed. Which also, the fact
Dialogue: 0,0:17:15.35,0:17:19.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you put something in one sentence\Ndoes not mean it makes sense. Right? So
Dialogue: 0,0:17:19.46,0:17:24.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is also not very well documented.\NAgain, pressed about this, the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:24.29,0:17:28.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,representative of the European Commission\Nsaid that, well, "We know that and it has
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.40,0:17:33.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been proven in the investigation, that one\Nof the people that were responsible for
Dialogue: 0,0:17:33.78,0:17:37.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Bataclan attack actually used the\NInternet before that happened.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:37.76,0:17:46.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}\NYes. No more comment needed on that one.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.36,0:17:52.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, well, clearly, there are "very good\Nreasons", quote unquote, to spend time
Dialogue: 0,0:17:52.16,0:17:59.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and citizens money on working on\Nthe new law. And I always say that
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.14,0:18:03.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically these laws are created because,\Nnot because there is a reason, but
Dialogue: 0,0:18:03.10,0:18:06.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there is a do-something-doctrine.\NRight. We have a problem, we
Dialogue: 0,0:18:06.44,0:18:15.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to do something. And this is how this\Nlaw, I think, came to be. And the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:15.100,0:18:22.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do-something-doctrine in this particular\Ncase, or also, of course, it encompasses a
Dialogue: 0,0:18:22.99,0:18:28.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very broad and blurry definition of that\Nlaw. I will talk about this more in a
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.33,0:18:33.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,moment. It also encompasses measures, we,\Nif we define something that we want to
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.62,0:18:41.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,counteract to, we have to basically say\Nwhat should happen. Right. So that the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:41.37,0:18:46.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problem is being solved. And there are 3\Nmeasures that they will also explain. One
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.19,0:18:50.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the removal orders. The other is\Nreferrals. And the third are so-called
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.81,0:18:56.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proactive measures. This is, I guess, the\Npart where we touch the prevention
Dialogue: 0,0:18:56.75,0:19:06.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most. And then the third issue is that,\Nthe one of the things I also want to talk
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.50,0:19:10.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about is the links between the content\Nthat is being removed and the actual
Dialogue: 0,0:19:10.34,0:19:14.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,investigations or prosecutions that may\Noccur, because of course it's possible
Dialogue: 0,0:19:14.78,0:19:20.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there will be some content found that\Nactually does document the crime. And
Dialogue: 0,0:19:20.58,0:19:32.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then what do we do about that? So, going\Nforward, I do think that the definition
Dialogue: 0,0:19:32.51,0:19:37.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this law is basically, its main\Nprinciple is to normalize the state
Dialogue: 0,0:19:37.39,0:19:44.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,control over how people communicate and\Nwhat they wanted to say. As it was said
Dialogue: 0,0:19:44.68,0:19:50.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before, under the premise of terrorism, we\Ncan actually pack a lot of different
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.63,0:19:56.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things because people are afraid of this.\NAnd we have also examples from other
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.89,0:20:02.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,topics, other laws that have been debated\Nin Brussels. One was public sector
Dialogue: 0,0:20:02.74,0:20:10.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,information directive, where everybody was\Nvery happy discussing how much public
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.08,0:20:13.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,information should be released and where\Nit should come from and how people should
Dialogue: 0,0:20:13.98,0:20:18.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have access to it. And a part of public\Ninformation is the information that is
Dialogue: 0,0:20:18.98,0:20:23.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,produced by companies that perform public\Nservices, but they may also be private,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:23.76,0:20:28.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for example, sometimes transport, public\Ntransport is provided that way. And
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.03,0:20:31.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually public transport providers were\Nthe ones that were saying that they cannot
Dialogue: 0,0:20:31.93,0:20:36.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,release the information that they have,\Nnamely timetables and other
Dialogue: 0,0:20:36.55,0:20:44.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,information about how the system\Nworks that could be useful for citizens
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.27,0:20:49.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because then it may be used by terrorists.\NI guess that maybe prevents the potential
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.35,0:20:53.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorists from going from bus stop to bus\Nstop and figuring out how the buses go.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:53.51,0:20:57.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we already know that this does not\Nwork that way. So this is something
Dialogue: 0,0:20:57.53,0:21:04.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that actually normalizes this approach.\NAnd let's first look at the definition of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.04,0:21:09.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the proposal as presented by the\NEuropean Commission. So they say
Dialogue: 0,0:21:09.90,0:21:14.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically, let me read: "Terrorist content\Nmeans one or more of the following
Dialogue: 0,0:21:14.12,0:21:20.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,information. So a) inciting or advocating,\Nincluding by glorifying, the commission of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:20.72,0:21:25.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorist offences". I do apologise for\Nthe horrible level of English
Dialogue: 0,0:21:25.99,0:21:32.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they use, I don't know why and that I\Ndon't apologise for them, but for the fact
Dialogue: 0,0:21:32.04,0:21:35.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they expose you to it. "The\Ncommission of terrorist offences,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:35.96,0:21:40.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Clapping{\i0}\Nthereby causing a danger that such acts be
Dialogue: 0,0:21:40.24,0:21:44.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,committed". You won't believe how many\Ntimes I had to read all this to actually
Dialogue: 0,0:21:44.65,0:21:48.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,understand what all those things mean.\N"Encouraging the contribution to terrorist
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.52,0:21:56.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,offences". So contribution could be money,\Ncould be some, I guess material resources.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:56.75,0:22:00.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Promoting the activities of a terrorist\Ngroup, in particular by encouraging the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:00.68,0:22:05.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,participation in or support to a\Nterrorist group. Instructing on methods or
Dialogue: 0,0:22:05.70,0:22:10.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,techniques for the purpose of committing\Nterrorist offenses". And then there is
Dialogue: 0,0:22:10.08,0:22:16.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also the definition of "dissemination of\Nterrorist content". That basically means
Dialogue: 0,0:22:16.23,0:22:20.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"making terrorist content available to\Nthird parties on the hosting service
Dialogue: 0,0:22:20.49,0:22:26.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,providers services". As you can probably\Nsee, the dissemination and the fact that
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.83,0:22:33.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,third parties are evoked mean that this\Nlaw is super broad. So it's not only about
Dialogue: 0,0:22:33.36,0:22:38.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,social media because making content\Navailable through third parties may mean
Dialogue: 0,0:22:38.20,0:22:43.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I am sharing something over some sort\Nof service with my mom and she is a third
Dialogue: 0,0:22:43.29,0:22:48.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,party in the understanding of this law. So\Nwe were actually super troubled to see
Dialogue: 0,0:22:48.86,0:22:54.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that not only does it encompass services\Nthat make information available to the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:54.35,0:22:58.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,public. So the one that we all can see\Nlike social media, but also that
Dialogue: 0,0:22:58.81,0:23:04.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,potentially it could be used against\Nservices that make, let people communicate
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.53,0:23:09.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,privately. So that is a that is a big\Nissue. The second thing I wanted to direct
Dialogue: 0,0:23:09.81,0:23:17.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your attention to is the parts that\Nthey put in italics. It's how soft those
Dialogue: 0,0:23:17.66,0:23:25.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those concepts are, inciting, advocating,\Nglorifying, encouraging, promoting. This
Dialogue: 0,0:23:25.18,0:23:29.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a law that actually potentially can\Nreally influence how we talk and how to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:29.47,0:23:33.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communicate what we wanted to talk about,\Nwhether we agree or disagree with certain
Dialogue: 0,0:23:33.61,0:23:41.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,policies or certain political decisions.\NAnd all those things are super soft. And
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.57,0:23:47.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's very, very hard to say what \Ndoes it really mean. And I want to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:47.09,0:23:53.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give you an example of the same\Ncontent used in 3 different cases to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:53.68,0:23:59.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,illustrate this. So let's imagine we have\Na group of people that recorded a video
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.82,0:24:03.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and on those videos, they\Nsay that, well, basically they call
Dialogue: 0,0:24:03.95,0:24:10.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,themselves terrorists, to make it easier,\Nand they say that they wanted to
Dialogue: 0,0:24:10.65,0:24:16.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,commit all sorts of horrible things in\Nspecific places, so that constitutes like
Dialogue: 0,0:24:16.82,0:24:21.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some sort of a credible threat. And they\Nalso bragged that they killed someone. And
Dialogue: 0,0:24:21.70,0:24:25.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they also say that they're super happy\Nabout this and so on. And they also, of
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.40,0:24:29.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,course, encourage others to join them and\Nso on and so on. And the 3 cases would be:
Dialogue: 0,0:24:29.62,0:24:35.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,1 would be that this particular group\Nposted videos on, I don't know, their
Dialogue: 0,0:24:35.87,0:24:41.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,YouTube channel. The other case would be\Nthat there is a media outlet that reports
Dialogue: 0,0:24:41.34,0:24:47.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on it and either links to this video or\Nmaybe present snippets of it. And the
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.26,0:24:51.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,third case would be, for example, that\Nthere is some sort of group that is
Dialogue: 0,0:24:51.48,0:24:57.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually following what's happening in\Nthat region and collects evidence that can
Dialogue: 0,0:24:57.37,0:25:01.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then help identify the people and\Nprosecute them for the crimes they commit.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.02,0:25:07.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like the crime that's our\Nexemplary terrorists admitted to
Dialogue: 0,0:25:07.98,0:25:13.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,committing. And do you think that\Naccording to this definition, in your
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.40,0:25:18.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opinion, do you think that there is a\Ndifference between those 3 types of
Dialogue: 0,0:25:18.35,0:25:23.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presenting that content between the\Nterrorist group that is presenting it on
Dialogue: 0,0:25:23.02,0:25:27.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their channel, between the media outlet\Nand between the activists? There is none.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:27.92,0:25:34.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because this law has nothing, does not\Ndefine in any way that the so-called
Dialogue: 0,0:25:34.66,0:25:42.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorist content is something that is\Npublished with an intention of actually
Dialogue: 0,0:25:42.18,0:25:48.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,advocating and glorifying. So the problem\Nis that not only does the content that,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.98,0:25:54.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say, is as weak as we may call it\Nmanifestly illegal. So somebody kills
Dialogue: 0,0:25:54.23,0:25:58.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone and is being recorded and we know\Nit's a crime and perhaps we don't want to
Dialogue: 0,0:25:58.71,0:26:02.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,watch it, although I do think that we\Nshould also have a discussion in our
Dialogue: 0,0:26:02.32,0:26:08.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society, what we wanted to see and\Nwhat we don't want to see.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:08.35,0:26:12.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,From the fact, from the perspective that\Nthe world is complicated and we may
Dialogue: 0,0:26:12.78,0:26:17.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have the right to access all sorts of\Ninformation, even that is not so
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.48,0:26:23.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pleasant and not so easy to digest. So\Nthis law does not make this
Dialogue: 0,0:26:23.03,0:26:28.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,differentiation. There is no mention of\Nhow this should be intentional to qualify
Dialogue: 0,0:26:28.03,0:26:34.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be considered so-called terrorist\Ncontent. And that's a big problem. So as
Dialogue: 0,0:26:34.60,0:26:38.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can see, there is a fallacy in this\Nnarrative because these will be the member
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.81,0:26:45.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,states and their so-called competent\Nauthorities that will be deciding what the
Dialogue: 0,0:26:45.81,0:26:54.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorist content is. And, of course,\NEuropeans have a tendency, a tendency to
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.46,0:26:59.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think we have the tendency to think of\Nourselves as the the societies and the
Dialogue: 0,0:26:59.90,0:27:07.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nations and the countries that champion\Nthe rule of law and that and that actually
Dialogue: 0,0:27:07.16,0:27:13.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,respect fundamental rights and expect,\Nrespect freedom of speech. But we also
Dialogue: 0,0:27:13.70,0:27:18.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know that this is changing rapidly. And I\Nalso will show you examples of how that
Dialogue: 0,0:27:18.49,0:27:24.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,changes in this area that we're talking\Nabout right now. So. So I do not have
Dialogue: 0,0:27:24.51,0:27:29.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,great trust in in European governments\Ninto making the correct judgment about
Dialogue: 0,0:27:29.55,0:27:45.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that. So. So we have this category of very\Ndubious and and very broad terrorist
Dialogue: 0,0:27:45.42,0:27:56.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content. And then, so how it's how it's\Nbeing done. The, the basically all that
Dialogue: 0,0:27:56.25,0:28:01.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,power to decide what the content, like how\Nto deal with that content, is actually
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.17,0:28:04.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,outsourced to private actors. So the\Nplatforms that we are talking about
Dialogue: 0,0:28:04.88,0:28:09.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,becomes kind of mercenaries because\Nboth the commission and I guess many
Dialogue: 0,0:28:09.45,0:28:13.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,member states say, well, it's not possible\Nthat the judge will actually look through
Dialogue: 0,0:28:13.40,0:28:18.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content that is placed online and give,\Nyou know, proper judiciary decisions about
Dialogue: 0,0:28:18.17,0:28:21.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what should, what constitute freedom of\Nexpression and what goes beyond it.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:21.95,0:28:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because it hurts other people or\Nis basically a proof of something illegal.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:29.42,0:28:32.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the platforms will take those\Ndecisions. This will be the hosting
Dialogue: 0,0:28:32.90,0:28:39.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,service providers, as I mentioned. And\Nthen also a lot of the reliance that they
Dialogue: 0,0:28:39.87,0:28:44.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will do it right is put into the wishful\Nthinking in this proposal that says, well,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:44.07,0:28:47.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically, you have to put in terms of\Nservice that you will not host terrorist
Dialogue: 0,0:28:47.86,0:28:52.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content. So then that again, there is a\Nlayer in there where the platform,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:52.55,0:29:01.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say Facebook or Twitter or any\Nanyone else actually decides what and how
Dialogue: 0,0:29:01.23,0:29:06.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they wanted to deal with that in detail.\NAlso, one thing I didn't mention is that
Dialogue: 0,0:29:06.89,0:29:10.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking for this regulation and looking at\Nwho is the platform that should basically
Dialogue: 0,0:29:10.88,0:29:15.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have those terms of service we realize\Nthat Wikimedia that actually our platforms
Dialogue: 0,0:29:15.51,0:29:21.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will actually be in the scope of that. So\Nnot only that may affect the way we can
Dialogue: 0,0:29:21.21,0:29:29.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,document and reference the articles that\Nare appearing on Wikipedia, on all those
Dialogue: 0,0:29:29.34,0:29:34.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all those, on the events that are\Ndescribed or the groups or the political
Dialogue: 0,0:29:34.09,0:29:39.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situation and what not. But also that, you\Nknow, our community of editors will have
Dialogue: 0,0:29:39.99,0:29:44.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,less and less to say if we have to put a\Nlot of emphasis on terms of service. I
Dialogue: 0,0:29:44.79,0:29:49.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just think that we are somehow a\Ncollateral damage of this. But also this
Dialogue: 0,0:29:49.53,0:29:54.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn't console me much because, of\Ncourse, Internet is bigger than than our
Dialogue: 0,0:29:54.86,0:30:00.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,projects. And also, we want to make sure\Nthat, that content is not being removed
Dialogue: 0,0:30:00.38,0:30:07.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,elsewhere. So basically the 3 measures are\Nthe removal orders, as I mentioned. And
Dialogue: 0,0:30:07.84,0:30:11.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is something that is fairly, fairly\Nstraightforward. And actually, I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:30:11.69,0:30:15.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wondering why there has to be a special\Nlaw to bring it, because, to being
Dialogue: 0,0:30:15.83,0:30:20.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the removal order is basically a\Ndecision that the competent authority in
Dialogue: 0,0:30:20.41,0:30:24.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the member state releases and sends it to\Nthe platform. The problem is that
Dialogue: 0,0:30:24.95,0:30:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,according to the commission, the platform\Nshould actually act on it in 1 hour. And
Dialogue: 0,0:30:30.20,0:30:34.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then again, we ask them why 1 hour and not\N74 minutes? And they say, "Well, because
Dialogue: 0,0:30:34.59,0:30:39.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we actually know", I don't know how, but\Nthey say they do. Let's take it at face
Dialogue: 0,0:30:39.70,0:30:46.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,value. "We actually know that the content\Nis the most, you know, viral and spreads
Dialogue: 0,0:30:46.25,0:30:50.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fastest within, has the biggest range\Nwithin the 1 hour from appearance". And
Dialogue: 0,0:30:50.60,0:30:54.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then we ask them "Well, but how can you\Nknow that? Actually, the people that find
Dialogue: 0,0:30:54.48,0:30:59.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the content find it exactly on the moment\Nwhen it comes up. Maybe it has been around
Dialogue: 0,0:30:59.80,0:31:05.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for 2 weeks and this 1 hour window when it\Nwent really viral is like long gone". And
Dialogue: 0,0:31:05.94,0:31:11.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here they don't really answer, obviously.\NSo this is one of the measures
Dialogue: 0,0:31:11.73,0:31:17.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I guess makes the most sense out of\Nall of that. Then we have the referrals
Dialogue: 0,0:31:17.09,0:31:20.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we call lazy removal\Norders. And this is this is really
Dialogue: 0,0:31:20.10,0:31:23.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something that is very puzzling for me\Nbecause the referral is a situation in
Dialogue: 0,0:31:23.83,0:31:28.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which this competent authority and the\Nperson working there goes through the
Dialogue: 0,0:31:28.09,0:31:33.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content, through the videos or postings\Nand looks at it and says, "Well, I think,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:33.48,0:31:38.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it's against the terms of service\Nof this platform, but does not actually
Dialogue: 0,0:31:38.91,0:31:43.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,release this removal order, but writes to\Nthe platform, let's them know and say,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:43.74,0:31:48.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Hey, can you please check this out?" I'm\Nsorry, I'm confused, is this the time that
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.81,0:31:56.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have left or the time? OK, good, time is\Nimportant here. So so basically, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:56.22,0:32:00.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they are basically, won't spend the time\Nto prepare this removal order
Dialogue: 0,0:32:00.25,0:32:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and right and take let the platform to,\Ntell the platform actually to remove it.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:05.84,0:32:09.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they will just ask them to please\Nverify whether this content should be
Dialogue: 0,0:32:09.49,0:32:14.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there or not. And first of all, this is\Nthe real outsourcing of power
Dialogue: 0,0:32:14.82,0:32:20.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over the speech and expression. But\Nalso we know how platforms take those
Dialogue: 0,0:32:20.06,0:32:26.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decisions. They have a very short time.\NThe people that do it are sitting
Dialogue: 0,0:32:26.24,0:32:30.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,somewhere, most probably where the content\Nis not originating from. So they don't
Dialogue: 0,0:32:30.65,0:32:34.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,understand the context. Sometimes they\Ndon't understand the language. And also,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:34.42,0:32:38.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, it's better to get rid of it\Njust in case it really is problematic,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:38.06,0:32:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right? So this is something that is\Ncompletely increased this great gray area
Dialogue: 0,0:32:42.24,0:32:51.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of information that is controversial\Nenough to be flagged, but it's not illegal
Dialogue: 0,0:32:51.56,0:32:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enough to be removed by the order. By the\Nway, the European Parliament actually
Dialogue: 0,0:32:57.07,0:33:03.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kicked this out from their version. So now\Nthe fight is in this negotiation between
Dialogue: 0,0:33:03.20,0:33:07.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 3 institutions to actually follow this\Nrecommendation and just remove it, because
Dialogue: 0,0:33:07.60,0:33:13.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it really does not make sense. And it\Nreally makes the people that
Dialogue: 0,0:33:13.23,0:33:17.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,release those referrals not really\Naccountable for their decisions
Dialogue: 0,0:33:17.70,0:33:22.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they don't take the decision. They\Njust make a suggestion. And then we have
Dialogue: 0,0:33:22.45,0:33:26.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the proactive measures, which most\Ndefinitely will lead to over-policing of
Dialogue: 0,0:33:26.63,0:33:31.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content. There is a whole, a very clever\Ndescription in the law that basically
Dialogue: 0,0:33:31.80,0:33:35.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,boils down to the point that if you are\Ngoing to use content filtering and if
Dialogue: 0,0:33:35.94,0:33:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're going to prevent content from\Ndisappearing, then basically you are
Dialogue: 0,0:33:40.68,0:33:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing a good job as a platform. And\Nthis is the way to actually deal with
Dialogue: 0,0:33:44.32,0:33:50.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorist content. Since, however we\Ndefine it, again, this is very
Dialogue: 0,0:33:50.65,0:33:56.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,context-oriented, very context-dependent. \NIt's really very difficult to say based on
Dialogue: 0,0:33:56.08,0:33:59.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what sort of criteria and based, based on\Nwhat sort of databases those
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.83,0:34:05.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,automated processes will be, will be\Nhappening. So, of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:05.24,0:34:10.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as it happens in today's world,\NSomebody privatizes
Dialogue: 0,0:34:10.16,0:34:17.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the profits, but the losses are\Nalways socialized. And this is now no
Dialogue: 0,0:34:17.30,0:34:23.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exception from that rule. So, again, when\Nwe were talking to the European Commission
Dialogue: 0,0:34:23.85,0:34:29.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and asking them, "Why is this not a piece\Nof legislation that belongs to the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:29.32,0:34:36.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforcement of the law?" And that is then\Nnot controlled by a heavily by the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:36.56,0:34:40.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judiciary system and by any other sort of\Noversight, that enforcements usually had.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:40.62,0:34:44.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"They have, well, because, you know,\Nwhen we have those videos of beheadings,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:44.46,0:34:48.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they usually don't happen in Europe and\Nthey are really beyond our jurisdiction".
Dialogue: 0,0:34:48.33,0:34:51.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, of course, nobody will act on it.\NOn the very meaningful level of
Dialogue: 0,0:34:51.63,0:34:54.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually finding the people\Nthat that are killing,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:54.26,0:34:57.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are in the business of \Nkilling others and making
Dialogue: 0,0:34:57.13,0:35:02.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sure they cannot continue with this\Nactivity. So it's very clear that this
Dialogue: 0,0:35:02.87,0:35:08.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whole law is about cleaning the Internet\Nand not really about a meaningfully
Dialogue: 0,0:35:08.47,0:35:18.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tackling societal problems that lead to\Nthat sort of violence. Also the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:18.50,0:35:22.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,redress, which is the mechanism in which\Nthe user can say, hey, this is not the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:22.54,0:35:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right decision. I actually believe this\Ncontent is not illegal at all. And it's
Dialogue: 0,0:35:26.46,0:35:31.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important for me to say this and this is\Nmy right and I want it to be up. Those,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:31.40,0:35:38.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those provisions are very weak. You cannot\Nactually protest meaningfully against a
Dialogue: 0,0:35:38.57,0:35:42.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,removal order of your content. Of course,\Nyou can always take states, the states to
Dialogue: 0,0:35:42.67,0:35:47.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,court. But we know how amazingly\Ninteresting that is and how fast it
Dialogue: 0,0:35:47.64,0:35:53.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happens. So that, so we can I think we\Ncan agree that there is no meaningful way
Dialogue: 0,0:35:53.03,0:36:00.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to actually protest. Also, the state may\Nask, well, actually, this this removal
Dialogue: 0,0:36:00.14,0:36:05.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,order should... the user should not be\Ninformed that the content has been has
Dialogue: 0,0:36:05.41,0:36:10.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been taken down because of terrorism.\NSo. Or depicting terrorism or glorifying
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.69,0:36:16.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or whatever. So even you may not even know\Nwhy the content is taken down. It will be
Dialogue: 0,0:36:16.19,0:36:22.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a secret. For referrals and for proactive\Nmeasures, well, you know what? Go talk to
Dialogue: 0,0:36:22.01,0:36:26.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the platform and protest with them. And\Nthen, of course, the other question is, so
Dialogue: 0,0:36:26.54,0:36:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who is the terrorist? Right. Because this\Nis a very important question that that we
Dialogue: 0,0:36:30.51,0:36:37.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should have answered if we wanted to... if\Nwe wanted to have a law that actually is
Dialogue: 0,0:36:37.59,0:36:42.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,meaningfully engaging with those issues.\NAnd of course, well, the as you know
Dialogue: 0,0:36:42.33,0:36:48.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already from what I said, the European\NCommission in that particular case does
Dialogue: 0,0:36:48.59,0:36:54.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not provide a very good answer. But we\Nhave some other responses to that. For
Dialogue: 0,0:36:54.40,0:37:03.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,example, Europol has created a report and\Nthen there was a blog post based on that.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:03.37,0:37:07.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the title "On the importance of taking\Ndown non-violent terrorist content".
Dialogue: 0,0:37:07.62,0:37:11.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we have the European Commission that\Nsays, "Yes, it's about the beheadings and
Dialogue: 0,0:37:11.43,0:37:15.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the mutilations". And we have\NEuropol that says, "You know, actually
Dialogue: 0,0:37:15.58,0:37:19.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this non-violent terrorist content is\Nsuper important". So basically what they
Dialogue: 0,0:37:19.88,0:37:25.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say and I quote, "Poetry is a literary\Nmedium that is widely appreciated across
Dialogue: 0,0:37:25.46,0:37:30.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Arab world and is an important part\Nof their region's identity. Mastering it
Dialogue: 0,0:37:30.46,0:37:34.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,provides the poet with singular authority\Nin Arabic culture. The most prominent
Dialogue: 0,0:37:34.81,0:37:39.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,jihadi leaders - including Osama bin Laden\Nand former Islamic State spokesman
Dialogue: 0,0:37:39.66,0:37:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Abu Muhammad al-Adnadi - frequently\Nincluded poetry in their
Dialogue: 0,0:37:43.20,0:37:46.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,speeches or wrote poems of their own.\NTheir charisma was
Dialogue: 0,0:37:46.45,0:37:49.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,closely intertwined with their\Nmastery of poetry."
Dialogue: 0,0:37:49.38,0:37:54.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we can see the art that is being made\Nby Europol between a very important aspect
Dialogue: 0,0:37:54.81,0:37:59.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of a culture that is beautiful and\Nenriching and about the fact that this,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:59.26,0:38:03.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that, that Europol wants it to see it\Nweaponized. The other part of the blogpost
Dialogue: 0,0:38:03.46,0:38:08.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was about how ISIS presents interesting\Nactivities that their members... their,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:08.37,0:38:12.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their... their fighters have. And one of\Nthem is that they are enjoying themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:38:12.53,0:38:16.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and smiling and spending time together and\Nswimming. So what? How do we, what do we
Dialogue: 0,0:38:16.94,0:38:20.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make out of that? So the video of some\Nbrown people swimming are now
Dialogue: 0,0:38:20.23,0:38:27.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorist content? This is... the blatant\Nracism of, of this, of this communication
Dialogue: 0,0:38:27.76,0:38:33.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really enrages me. And I think it's really\Na shame that that nobody called Europol
Dialogue: 0,0:38:33.36,0:38:39.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out on this, when the blogpost came up. We\Nalso have laws in Europe that are
Dialogue: 0,0:38:39.53,0:38:44.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different. I mean, this is not the same\Nlegislation, but that actually give the...
Dialogue: 0,0:38:44.77,0:38:51.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give the the taste of what may happen. One\Nis the the Spanish law against hate
Dialogue: 0,0:38:51.47,0:38:57.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,speech. And, and this is an important\Npart. It didn't happen online, but it
Dialogue: 0,0:38:57.11,0:39:02.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shows the approach, that basically first\Nyou have legislators that say, oh, don't
Dialogue: 0,0:39:02.50,0:39:06.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,worry about this, we really want to go\Nafter bad guys. And then what happens is
Dialogue: 0,0:39:06.45,0:39:10.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there was a puppeteer performance\Ndone by 2 people, "The Witch and Don
Dialogue: 0,0:39:10.93,0:39:15.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Christóbal" and the puppets were\Nactually... this is the kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:39:15.84,0:39:22.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Punch and Judy performance in which, this\Nis a genre of, of theater, theatric
Dialogue: 0,0:39:22.89,0:39:30.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,performances, I'm sorry. That is kind of\Nfull of silly jokes and and sometimes
Dialogue: 0,0:39:30.11,0:39:36.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,excessive and and unjustified violence\Nand, and the, and the full of bad taste.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:36.00,0:39:40.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is quite serious. And the, the 2\Ncharacters in the, the 2 puppets held the
Dialogue: 0,0:39:40.86,0:39:46.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,banner that featured a made-up terrorist\Norganization. And after that performance,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:46.40,0:39:52.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually, they were charged with, first of\Nall, promoting terrorism, even though
Dialogue: 0,0:39:52.41,0:39:55.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is no terrorist organization like\Nthat. And then also with inciting,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:55.94,0:40:01.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inciting hatred. And this is what's one of\Nthe puppeteers said after describing this
Dialogue: 0,0:40:01.86,0:40:07.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whole horrible experience. Finally, the\Ncharges were dropped. So this is good. But
Dialogue: 0,0:40:07.27,0:40:11.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think this really sums up who is the\Nterrorists and how those laws are being
Dialogue: 0,0:40:11.57,0:40:20.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,used against people who actually have\Nnothing to do with, with violence. We were
Dialogue: 0,0:40:20.10,0:40:23.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,charged with inciting hatred, which is a\Nfelony created in theory to protect
Dialogue: 0,0:40:23.98,0:40:27.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,vulnerable minorities, the minorities in\Nthis case where the church,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:27.23,0:40:29.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the police and the legal system.\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:40:29.87,0:40:33.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then, again in Spain, I don't want to\Nsingle out this beautiful country, but
Dialogue: 0,0:40:33.57,0:40:36.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually, unfortunately, they\Nhave good examples. This is a very recent
Dialogue: 0,0:40:36.100,0:40:44.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one. So Tsunami Democràtic in Catalonia\Ncreated an app to actually help people
Dialogue: 0,0:40:44.31,0:40:49.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,organize small action in a decentralized\Nmanner. And they placed the documentations
Dialogue: 0,0:40:49.77,0:40:56.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on GitHub. And it was taken down by the\Norder of, of the Spanish court. And also
Dialogue: 0,0:40:56.61,0:41:01.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the - and this is the practical\Napplication of such laws online - also,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:01.46,0:41:06.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the website of Tsunami Democràtic\Nwas taken down by the court. Of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:06.60,0:41:10.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,both of that on charges\Nof of facilitating terrorist
Dialogue: 0,0:41:10.58,0:41:15.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,activities and inciting to \Nterrorism. So why is it important?
Dialogue: 0,0:41:15.79,0:41:19.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because of what comes next. So\Nthere will be the Digital Services Act,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:19.78,0:41:23.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which will be an overhaul of this idea\Nthat I mentioned at the beginning, which
Dialogue: 0,0:41:23.65,0:41:27.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that basically platform are not\Nresponsible by default, by what we put
Dialogue: 0,0:41:27.85,0:41:34.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,online. And European Commission and\Nother, the European Commission and other
Dialogue: 0,0:41:34.25,0:41:38.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actors in the EU are toying with the idea\Nthat maybe platforms should be somehow
Dialogue: 0,0:41:38.07,0:41:43.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,responsible. So, of course. And it's not\Nonly about social media, but basically
Dialogue: 0,0:41:43.80,0:41:51.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anybody that any sort of, of a service\Nthat helps people place content online.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:51.18,0:41:54.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, the, one of the ideas, we\Ndon't know what it's going to be, it's not
Dialogue: 0,0:41:54.90,0:41:58.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there yet. It's going to happen at the\Nbeginning of the next year, so
Dialogue: 0,0:41:58.18,0:42:01.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quite soon. But we can actually\Nexpect that the so-called "Good Samaritan"
Dialogue: 0,0:42:01.86,0:42:05.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rule will be 1 of the solutions proposed.\NWhat is this rule? This rule basically
Dialogue: 0,0:42:05.70,0:42:11.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,means if a platform is really going the\Nextra mile and doing a good job in
Dialogue: 0,0:42:11.09,0:42:16.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,removing the content, that is what... that\Nis either illegal or again or again, a
Dialogue: 0,0:42:16.85,0:42:22.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very difficult category, harmful. I also\Ndon't know what that exactly means. Then
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.99,0:42:27.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they behave well, then they will not be\Nheld responsible. So this is basically a
Dialogue: 0,0:42:27.76,0:42:31.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposal that you cannot really turn down,\Nbecause if you run the business, you want
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.84,0:42:35.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to manage the risk of that and you don't\Nwant to be fined. And you and you don't
Dialogue: 0,0:42:35.68,0:42:40.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to pay, pay money. So, of course, you\Ntry and overpolice and of course you try
Dialogue: 0,0:42:40.07,0:42:44.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you filter the content and of course\Nyou take content when it only raises a
Dialogue: 0,0:42:44.12,0:42:52.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,question what sort of... what sort of\Ncontent that is. Is it neutral or
Dialogue: 0,0:42:52.32,0:43:00.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is it maybe, you know, making somebody\Noffended or... or stirred? And, of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:00.33,0:43:05.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other attempts, we heard it from Germany.\NWhich is basically that there wasn't a
Dialogue: 0,0:43:05.48,0:43:15.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposal to actually make... oblige.. like\Nmake platforms obliged to give passwords
Dialogue: 0,0:43:15.22,0:43:21.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of users of social media. The people that\Nare under investigation or prosecution.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:21.19,0:43:26.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also, of course, we see that one of\Nthe ideas that supposedly is going to fix
Dialogue: 0,0:43:26.83,0:43:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything is that, well, if terrorists\Ncommunicate through encrypted services,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:31.68,0:43:35.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then maybe we should do something about\Nencryption. And there was a petition
Dialogue: 0,0:43:35.48,0:43:41.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,already on (?) to actually go in to\Nactually forbid encryption for those
Dialogue: 0,0:43:41.89,0:43:46.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,services after one of the one of the\Nterrorist attacks. So, of course, it
Dialogue: 0,0:43:46.54,0:43:53.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sounds, it sounds very extreme. But\Nthis is, in my opinion, the next the next
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.11,0:44:00.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,frontier here. So what can we do? Because\Nthis is all quite difficult. So as I
Dialogue: 0,0:44:00.38,0:44:04.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mentioned, the negotiations are still on.\NSo there is still time to talk to
Dialogue: 0,0:44:04.92,0:44:08.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your government. And this is very import\Nbecause, of course, the governments, when
Dialogue: 0,0:44:08.88,0:44:12.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they have this idea... they have this\Nproposal on the table, that they will be
Dialogue: 0,0:44:12.85,0:44:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,able to decide finally who is\Nthe terrorist and what is the terrorist
Dialogue: 0,0:44:18.36,0:44:23.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content. And also, that's on one hand. On\Nthe other hand, they know that people
Dialogue: 0,0:44:23.00,0:44:26.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't really care all that much about what\Nhappens in the E.U., which is
Dialogue: 0,0:44:26.65,0:44:31.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unfortunately true. They are actually\Nsupporting very much the commission's
Dialogue: 0,0:44:31.38,0:44:35.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposals. The only thing that they don't\Nlike is the fact that somebody from the
Dialogue: 0,0:44:35.19,0:44:41.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,police, from other country can maybe\Ninterfere with content in their language,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:41.71,0:44:46.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because that's one of the provisions that\Nthat also is there. So, so this is what
Dialogue: 0,0:44:46.57,0:44:50.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they don't like. They want to keep their\Nthere the territoriality of their
Dialogue: 0,0:44:50.95,0:44:56.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforcement laws intact. But there is\Nstill time and we can still do this. And
Dialogue: 0,0:44:56.70,0:45:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you want to talk to me about\Nwhat are the good ways to do it, I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:45:00.22,0:45:04.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,available here. And I would love to take\Nthat conversation up with you. The other
Dialogue: 0,0:45:04.78,0:45:11.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a very simple measure that I believe is\Nis always working. Is one that basically
Dialogue: 0,0:45:11.37,0:45:16.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is about telling just 1 friend, even 1\Nfriend, and asking them to do the same to
Dialogue: 0,0:45:16.12,0:45:20.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talk to other people about this. And there\Nare 2 reasons to do it. One is because, of
Dialogue: 0,0:45:20.13,0:45:23.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,course, then we make people aware of what\Nit happens. And the other in this
Dialogue: 0,0:45:23.67,0:45:29.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particular case that is very important is\Nthat basically people are scared of
Dialogue: 0,0:45:29.35,0:45:33.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrorism and, and they support a lot of\Nmeasures just because they hear this word.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:33.28,0:45:36.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when we explain, that, what that\Nreally means and when we unpack this a
Dialogue: 0,0:45:36.100,0:45:40.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,little bit, we build the resilience to\Nthose arguments. And I think it's
Dialogue: 0,0:45:40.39,0:45:43.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important. The other people\Nwho should know about this
Dialogue: 0,0:45:43.02,0:45:46.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are activists working with\Nvulnerable groups because of the
Dialogue: 0,0:45:46.38,0:45:50.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stigmatization that I\Nalready mentioned and because
Dialogue: 0,0:45:50.36,0:45:54.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the fact that we need to document\Nhorrible things that are happening to
Dialogue: 0,0:45:54.80,0:45:58.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people in other places in the world and\Nalso here in Europe. And journalists
Dialogue: 0,0:45:58.70,0:46:02.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and media organizations, because they\Nwill be affected by this law. And by the
Dialogue: 0,0:46:02.82,0:46:06.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way, how they can report and where they\Ncan they can get the sources for their
Dialogue: 0,0:46:06.92,0:46:12.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,information. So I think I went massively\Nover time from what it was planned. I hope
Dialogue: 0,0:46:12.02,0:46:16.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can still have some questions. Thank\Nyou. So, yeah. Talk to me more about this
Dialogue: 0,0:46:16.76,0:46:23.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now and then after the talk. Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:23.06,0:46:33.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:46:33.06,0:46:37.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Thanks for your talk. We still\Nhave time for questions, so please, if you
Dialogue: 0,0:46:37.31,0:46:42.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a question, line up at the mics. We\Nhave 1, 2, 3 evenly distributed through
Dialogue: 0,0:46:42.60,0:46:47.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the room. I want to remind you really\Nquickly that a question normally is one
Dialogue: 0,0:46:47.23,0:46:50.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sentence and ends with a question mark.\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:46:50.52,0:46:55.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not everybody seems to know that. So we\Nstart with mic number 2.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:55.53,0:47:02.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mic2: Hello. I... so I run Tor Relays in\Nthe United States. It seems like a lot of
Dialogue: 0,0:47:02.46,0:47:07.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these laws are focused on the notion of\Ncentralized platforms. Do they define what
Dialogue: 0,0:47:07.57,0:47:12.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a platform is and are they going to\Nextradite me because I am facilitating Tor
Dialogue: 0,0:47:12.40,0:47:16.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Onion service?\NA: Should we answer, no?
Dialogue: 0,0:47:16.25,0:47:21.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,H: Yeah.\NA: Okay, yes, so they do and they don't
Dialogue: 0,0:47:21.90,0:47:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a way that the definition it's\Nbased on basically what
Dialogue: 0,0:47:26.00,0:47:30.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the the hosting provider\Nis in in the European law is
Dialogue: 0,0:47:30.84,0:47:36.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually very broad. So it doesn't take\Ninto account the fact how big you are or
Dialogue: 0,0:47:36.09,0:47:42.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how you run your services. The bottom line\Nis that if you allow people to put content
Dialogue: 0,0:47:42.42,0:47:47.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up and share it with, again, 3rd party,\Nwhich may be the whole room here, it may
Dialogue: 0,0:47:47.16,0:47:51.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be the whole world but it may be just the\Npeople I want to share things to with.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:51.46,0:47:57.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then then you're obliged to to use the\Nmeasures that are... or, or to comply with
Dialogue: 0,0:47:57.75,0:48:01.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the measures that are envisioned in this\Nregulation. And there is a there's a
Dialogue: 0,0:48:01.94,0:48:06.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,debate also in the parliament. It was\Ntaken up and narrowed down actually to the
Dialogue: 0,0:48:06.59,0:48:11.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communication to the public. So I guess\Nthen as you correctly observe, it is more
Dialogue: 0,0:48:11.52,0:48:17.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about about the big platforms or about the\Ncentralized services. But actually the, in
Dialogue: 0,0:48:17.13,0:48:20.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the commission version, nothing makes me\Nbelieve that, that only then will be
Dialogue: 0,0:48:20.85,0:48:26.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,affected. On the contrary, also the, the\Nmessaging services may be.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:26.36,0:48:34.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,H: Okay, um, next question, mic number 3.\NMic3: Is it, uh, a photo with the upload
Dialogue: 0,0:48:34.88,0:48:41.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,filters, the copyright directive, it was\Nreally similar debate, especially on
Dialogue: 0,0:48:41.25,0:48:46.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,small companies, because, um, uh, at that\Ntime, the question was they tried to push
Dialogue: 0,0:48:46.59,0:48:51.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,upload filters for copyright content. And\Nthe question was, uh, how does that fit
Dialogue: 0,0:48:51.01,0:48:55.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with small companies? And they still\Nhaven't provided an answer to that. Uh,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:55.87,0:48:59.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the problem is they took the copyright\Ndirective and basically inspired
Dialogue: 0,0:48:59.56,0:49:04.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,themselves from the upload filters and\Napplied it to terrorist content. And it's
Dialogue: 0,0:49:04.04,0:49:07.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again, the question, how does that work\Nwith small Internet companies that have to
Dialogue: 0,0:49:07.93,0:49:13.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have someone on call during the\Nnights and things like that. So even big
Dialogue: 0,0:49:13.79,0:49:17.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,providers, I heard they don't have the\Nmeans to, to properly enforce that
Dialogue: 0,0:49:17.38,0:49:22.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something like this, this is a\Nkiller for the European Internet industry.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:22.57,0:49:26.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Yes.\N{\i1}laughter{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:49:26.06,0:49:32.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}\NH: I want to give a short reminder on the
Dialogue: 0,0:49:32.23,0:49:39.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,1 sentence rule. We have a question from\Nthe Internet. Signal angel, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:39.34,0:49:44.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Signal Angel: Yes, what, the question is,\Nwouldn't decentralized social networks
Dialogue: 0,0:49:44.70,0:49:52.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bypass these regulations?\NA: I'm not a lawyer, but I will give a
Dialogue: 0,0:49:52.43,0:49:55.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,question, I give an answer to this\Nquestion that the lawyer would give,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:55.90,0:49:58.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I maybe spent too much time with lawyers.\NThat depends.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:58.71,0:50:01.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughter{\i0}\NA: Because it really does, because this
Dialogue: 0,0:50:01.22,0:50:05.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,definition of who is obliged is so broad\Nthat a lot depends on the context, a lot
Dialogue: 0,0:50:05.80,0:50:10.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depends on what is happening, what is\Nbeing shared and how. So it's, it's very
Dialogue: 0,0:50:10.94,0:50:14.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difficult to say. I just want to say that\Nwe also had this conversation about
Dialogue: 0,0:50:14.72,0:50:20.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,copyright and many people came to me last\Nyear at Congress. I wasn't giving a talk
Dialogue: 0,0:50:20.49,0:50:24.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about it, but I was at the talk about the\Ncopyright directive and the filtering. And
Dialogue: 0,0:50:24.81,0:50:28.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,many people said, well, actually, you\Nknow, if you're not using those services,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:28.65,0:50:32.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you will not be affected. And actually,\Nwhen we share peer to peer, then this is
Dialogue: 0,0:50:32.54,0:50:36.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not an issue. But actually, this is\Nchanging. And there is actually
Dialogue: 0,0:50:36.82,0:50:41.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a decision of the European Court of\NJustice. And the decisions are not like
Dialogue: 0,0:50:41.96,0:50:45.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically the law, but basically they\Nare very often then followed and
Dialogue: 0,0:50:45.24,0:50:49.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,incorporated. And this is the... and this\Nis the decision on the Pirate Bay and
Dialogue: 0,0:50:49.32,0:50:53.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in... on Pirate Bay. And in this decision,\Nthe court says that, well, the argument
Dialogue: 0,0:50:53.68,0:50:57.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Pirate Bay made was basically we're\Nnot hosting any content. We're just
Dialogue: 0,0:50:57.72,0:51:03.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,connecting people with it. And in short,\Nand the court said, well,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:03.99,0:51:09.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually, we don't care. Because you\Norganize it, you optimize it, you like
Dialogue: 0,0:51:09.15,0:51:12.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the info, you optimize the\Ninformation, you bring it to people.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:12.27,0:51:15.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the fact that you don't share\Nit does not really mean anything. And
Dialogue: 0,0:51:15.70,0:51:20.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you are liable for the, for the copyright\Ninfringements. So, again, this is about a
Dialogue: 0,0:51:20.28,0:51:26.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different issue, but this is a very\Nrelevant way of thinking that we may
Dialogue: 0,0:51:26.70,0:51:30.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,expect that it will be translated into\Nother types of content. So, again, the
Dialogue: 0,0:51:30.67,0:51:36.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fact that that you don't host anything but\Nyou just connect people to one another
Dialogue: 0,0:51:36.04,0:51:42.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will not be... may not be something that,\Nthat will take you off the hook.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:42.48,0:51:49.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,H: Microphone number 3.\NMic3: Do these proposals contain or...
Dialogue: 0,0:51:49.19,0:51:54.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what sort of repercussions do these\Nproposals contained for filing a request,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:54.57,0:51:58.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,removal requests that are later determined\Nto be illegitimate? Is this just a free
Dialogue: 0,0:51:58.92,0:52:03.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pass to censor things? Or can.... are\Nthere repercussions?
Dialogue: 0,0:52:03.46,0:52:07.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: You... just want to make sure I\Nunderstand, you mean the removal orders,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:07.62,0:52:09.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the ones that say remove content, and\Nthat's it?
Dialogue: 0,0:52:09.87,0:52:13.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mic3: Yeah. If somebody files a removal\Norder that is determined later to be
Dialogue: 0,0:52:13.45,0:52:16.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,completely illegitimate. Are there\Nrepercussions?
Dialogue: 0,0:52:16.87,0:52:22.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Well, the problem starts even before\Nthat because again, the removal orders are
Dialogue: 0,0:52:22.88,0:52:26.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being issued by competent authorities. So\Nthere's like a designated authority that
Dialogue: 0,0:52:26.84,0:52:31.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can do it. Not everybody can. And\Nbasically, the order says this is the
Dialogue: 0,0:52:31.21,0:52:36.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content. This is the URL. This is the\Nlegal basis. Take it down. So there is no
Dialogue: 0,0:52:36.41,0:52:41.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way to protest it. And the platform can\Nonly not follow this order within 1 hour
Dialogue: 0,0:52:41.45,0:52:46.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 2 situations. One is that the force\Nmajeure, that is usually the issue.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:46.09,0:52:49.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Basically, there's some sort of external\Ncircumstance that prevents them from
Dialogue: 0,0:52:49.71,0:52:52.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing it. I don't know.\NComplete power outage
Dialogue: 0,0:52:52.43,0:52:55.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or problem with their servers\Nthat basically they cannot
Dialogue: 0,0:52:55.27,0:52:59.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,access and remove or block access\Nto this content. The other is if the
Dialogue: 0,0:52:59.55,0:53:04.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,request... the removal order, I'm sorry,\Ncontains errors that actually make it
Dialogue: 0,0:53:04.80,0:53:09.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,impossible to do. So, for example, there\Nis no URL or it's broken and it doesn't
Dialogue: 0,0:53:09.30,0:53:13.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lead anywhere. And these are the only 2\Nsituations. In the rest, the content has
Dialogue: 0,0:53:13.56,0:53:19.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be removed. And there is no way for the\Nuser and no way for the platform
Dialogue: 0,0:53:19.84,0:53:23.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to actually say, well, hold on, this is\Nnot the way to do it. And therefore, after
Dialogue: 0,0:53:23.83,0:53:28.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's being implemented to say, well, that\Nwas a bad decision. As I said, you can
Dialogue: 0,0:53:28.69,0:53:33.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,always go to court with the, with your\Nstate, but not many people will do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:33.57,0:53:39.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is not really a meaningful\Nway to address this.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:39.22,0:53:46.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,H: Next question. Mic number 3.\NMic3: How many... how much time do we have
Dialogue: 0,0:53:46.26,0:53:50.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to contact the parliamentarians to inform\Nthem maybe that there is some big issue
Dialogue: 0,0:53:50.89,0:53:55.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with this? What's the worst case\Ntimetable at the moment?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:55.45,0:53:59.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: That's a very good question. And thank\Nyou for asking because... this ... because
Dialogue: 0,0:53:59.63,0:54:05.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I forgot to mention this. That actually is\Nquite urgent. So the commission wanted to,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:05.02,0:54:10.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like usually, in those situations, the\Ncommission wanted to close the thing until
Dialogue: 0,0:54:10.21,0:54:14.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the end of the year and they didn't manage\Nit because there is no, no agreement
Dialogue: 0,0:54:14.63,0:54:20.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on those most pressing issues.\NBut we expect that the, the best
Dialogue: 0,0:54:20.24,0:54:25.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,case scenario is that until March, maybe\Nuntil June, it will probably happen
Dialogue: 0,0:54:25.90,0:54:31.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,earlier. It may be the next couple of\Nmonths. And there will be lots of meetings
Dialogue: 0,0:54:31.28,0:54:36.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about about that. So this is more or less\Nthe timeline. It's, there's no sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:54:36.95,0:54:41.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,external deadline for this, right, so this\Nis just an estimation and of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:41.51,0:54:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it may change, but, but this is what we\Nexpect.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:44.32,0:54:46.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,H: We have another question from the\NInternet.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:46.95,0:54:52.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,S: Does this law considers that\Nsuch content is used for psychological
Dialogue: 0,0:54:52.50,0:54:58.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,warfare by big nations?\NA: I'm sorry. I... Again, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:58.75,0:55:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,S: This, this content is, pictures or \Nvideo of whatsever, does this law
Dialogue: 0,0:55:04.13,0:55:08.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consider that such content is used for\Npsychological warfare?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:08.52,0:55:17.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Well, I'm trying to see how that\Nrelates. I think the law is... does not go
Dialogue: 0,0:55:17.73,0:55:24.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into details like that in a way. Which\Nmeans that I can go back to the definition
Dialogue: 0,0:55:24.59,0:55:31.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that basically it's just about the fact\Nthat if the content appears to be positive
Dialogue: 0,0:55:31.74,0:55:37.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about terrorist activities, then that's\Nthe basis of taking it down. But there's
Dialogue: 0,0:55:37.55,0:55:42.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nothing else that is being actually said\Nabout that. It's not more nuanced than
Dialogue: 0,0:55:42.35,0:55:48.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that. So I guess the answer is no.\NH: One last question from mic number 2.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:48.59,0:55:54.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mic2: Are there, in... any case studies\Npublished on successful application of
Dialogue: 0,0:55:54.69,0:55:59.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,alike laws in other countries? I asked\Nbecause we have alike laws in
Dialogue: 0,0:55:59.04,0:56:06.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Russia for 12 years and it's not that\Nuseful as far as I see.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:06.72,0:56:11.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Not that I know of. So I think\Nit's also a very difficult
Dialogue: 0,0:56:11.22,0:56:15.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing to research because we\Ncan only research what, what we
Dialogue: 0,0:56:15.84,0:56:21.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know that happened. Right? In a way that\Nyou have to have people that actually are
Dialogue: 0,0:56:21.18,0:56:27.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,vocal about this and that complain about\Nthese laws not being enforced in the
Dialogue: 0,0:56:27.21,0:56:32.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proper way. So, for example, content that\Ntaken down is completely about something
Dialogue: 0,0:56:32.03,0:56:39.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,else, which also sometimes happens. And,\Nand that's very difficult. I think
Dialogue: 0,0:56:39.11,0:56:45.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the biggest question here is\Nwhether there is an amount of studies
Dialogue: 0,0:56:45.33,0:56:49.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,documenting that something does not work\Nthat would prevent the European Union from
Dialogue: 0,0:56:49.92,0:56:56.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually having this legislative fever.\NAnd I would argue that not, because, as
Dialogue: 0,0:56:56.71,0:57:00.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they said, they don't have really good\Narguments or they don't really have good
Dialogue: 0,0:57:00.86,0:57:05.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,numbers to justify bringing this law at\Nall. Not to mention bringing the
Dialogue: 0,0:57:05.83,0:57:12.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ridiculous measures that they propose.\NSo what we say sometimes
Dialogue: 0,0:57:12.42,0:57:15.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Brussels when we're very frustrated\Nthat we we were hoping, you
Dialogue: 0,0:57:15.63,0:57:21.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, being there and advocating for for\Nhuman rights, is that we... we hoped
Dialogue: 0,0:57:21.31,0:57:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for... that we can contribute to evidence\Nbased policy. But actually, what's
Dialogue: 0,0:57:26.00,0:57:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happening, it's a policy based evidence.\NAnd, and this is the difficult part. So I
Dialogue: 0,0:57:31.68,0:57:37.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,am all for studies and I am all for\Npresenting information that, you know, may
Dialogue: 0,0:57:37.82,0:57:41.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possibly help legislators. There are\Ndefinitely some MEP or some people there,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:41.73,0:57:45.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even probably in the commission. Maybe\Nthey just are not allowed to voice
Dialogue: 0,0:57:45.60,0:57:50.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their opinion on this because it's a\Nhighly political issue that would wish to
Dialogue: 0,0:57:50.65,0:57:54.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have those studies or would wish to be\Nable to use them. And that believe in
Dialogue: 0,0:57:54.93,0:58:00.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that. But it's just, it doesn't\Ntranslate into the political process.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:00.78,0:58:06.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,H: Okay. Time's up. If you have any\Nmore questions, you can come
Dialogue: 0,0:58:06.68,0:58:09.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up and approach Anna later.\NA: Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:09.56,0:58:14.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,H: There is please. Thanks.\NSo first for me.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:14.50,0:58:17.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thanks for the talk. Thanks for\Npatiently answer...
Dialogue: 0,0:58:17.06,0:58:20.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}36c3 postroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:58:20.90,0:58:43.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2021. Join, and help us!