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36c3 preroll music
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Herald: ...but now we start what we're[br]here for and I'm really happy to be
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allowed to introduce Anna Mazgal. She will[br]talk about something which a great title.
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I love it. "Confessions of a Future[br]Terrorist". Terror, terrorism is the one
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thing you can always shout out and you get[br]everything through. And she will give us a
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rough guide to overregulate free speech[br]with anti-terrorist measures. Anna works
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for Wikimedia where she's a lobbyist of[br]human rights into the digital environment
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and works in Brussels. And she gives a lot[br]of talk. And I think it's the first time
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at a congress for her, is that right?[br]Anna: Second time.
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Herald: Second time? I haven't really[br]researched right, because I searched for
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it. So I have to do this again. It's her[br]2nd time for congress and I'm really
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happy to have her here. Please welcome her[br]with a big round of applause.
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Anna, the stage is yours.[br]Anna: Thank you. Yes. So as you have
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already heard, I don't do any of the cool[br]things that we comedians and Wikipedians
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do. I am based in Brussels and the[br]L-word, I do the lobbying on behalf of our
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community. And today I am here because I[br]wanted to talk to you about one of the
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proposals of 4 laws that we are now[br]observing the development of. And I wanted
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to share my concerns also like active, as[br]an activist, because I'm really worried
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how, if that law passes in its worst[br]possible vision or one of the of the bad
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versions, how it will affect my work. I'm[br]also concerned how it would it will affect
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your work. And basically all of ours[br]expression online. And I also want to
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share with you that this law makes me[br]really angry. So, so I think these are a
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few good reasons to be here and to talk to[br]you. And I hope after this presentation we
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can have a conversation about this. And[br]I'm looking forward also to your
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perspective on it and, and also the things[br]you may not agree with maybe. So, so what
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is this law? So, in September 2018, the[br]European Commission came out with a
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proposal of regulation on preventing[br]the dissemination of terrorist content
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online. So there are a few things to[br]unpack here of for what it is about. First
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of all, when we see a law that is about[br]Internet and that is about the content and
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what is about the online environment and[br]it says it will prevent something, this
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always brings a very difficult and[br]complicated perspective for us, the
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digital rights activists in Brussels.[br]Because prevention online never means
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anything good. So, so this is one thing.[br]The other thing is that this very troubled
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concept of terrorist content, I will be[br]talking about this more, we will talk, I
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will show you how the European Commission[br]understands it and what are the problems
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with that understanding and whether this[br]is something that can actually be really
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defined in the law. So, so these are the,[br]the already the red flags that I have seen
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and we have seen when we were, when we[br]first got them, the proposal, into our
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hands. I would like to tell you a little[br]bit about the framework of it. This is
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probably the, the most dry part of that,[br]but I think it's important to correctly
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place it. First of all, this is the[br]European Union legislation. So we're
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talking about the legislation that will[br]influence 27 member states. Maybe 28, but
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we know about Brexit, so, so that is a[br]debatable what's going to happen there.
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And it's important to note that whenever[br]we have European legislation in the EU,
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this is the, these are the laws that[br]actually are shaping the laws of all those
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countries. And they come before the[br]national laws. So, so should this, should
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this be implemented in any of the form,[br]when it's implemented in any of the form,
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this is what is going to happen. The next[br]important part of information that I want
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to give you is that this particular[br]regulation is a part of the framework that
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is called Digital Single Market. So the[br]European Union, one of, one of the
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objectives when a European[br]Commission created the law and when other
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bodies of the European Union work on it,[br]is that there is, that, that the laws in
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the member states of the[br]European Union are actually similar. And
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the Digital Single Market means that what[br]we want, we want to achieve something on
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the Internet that in a way is already[br]achieved within the European Union
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geographically, meaning that we don't want[br]the borders on the Internet between people
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communicating and also delivering goods[br]and services in the European Union.
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And you may ask how that connects with[br]the terrorist content and how
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that connects with what today's topics. To[br]be honest, I am also puzzled because I
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think, that legislation that talks about[br]how people communicate online and what is
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considered the speech that we wanted there[br]and we don't want this should not be a
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part of a framework that is about market.[br]So this is also something that
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brings a concern. Also, as you've seen at[br]the first slide, this piece of
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legislation, this proposal is called the[br]regulation. And not to go too much into
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details about what are the forms of[br]legislation in the EU, the important thing
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to know here is that the regulation is a[br]law that once it is adopted by the EU,
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once the parliament votes on it, it[br]starts, it is binding directly in
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all the member states of the European[br]Union, which means that there is no
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further discussion on how this should be[br]actually used. Of course, in each country
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there are different decisions being made[br]by different bodies. But it means for us,
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the people that work on this and that want[br]to influence the legislative process, that
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once this law is out of Brussels, there[br]is nothing much to be done
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about how it's going to be[br]implemented. And this is
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important because for now, the discussion[br]about this, because for us, the discussion
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about this, is the one that happens in[br]Brussels. There are a few versions of the
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law. And very quickly, European Commission[br]proposes the law. European Parliament
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looks at it, debates it, and then produces[br]its own version of it. So amends it or
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makes it worse. And then the Council of[br]the EU, which is the gathering of all the
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member states and the[br]representatives of the government of the
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member states, also creates their own[br]version. And then, of course, when you
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have 3 versions, you also need to have a[br]lot of conversations and a lot of
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negotiation, how to put this together into[br]one. And all of those bodies have their
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own ideas. Every one of those bodies[br]have their own ideas on how any law should
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look like. So this process is not only[br]complicated, but also this negotiation
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that is called the trilogs. It's actually[br]very non-transparent. And there is no or
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almost none, no official information about[br]how those negotiations go, what are the
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versions of the document and so on. This[br]is the part that we are now in. And I will
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talk more about this later on. Today I[br]want to talk to you about the potential
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consequences of diversion. That is the[br]original one, which is the European
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Commission's version. And it's because it[br]will be very complicated and
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confusing I guess, if we look at all of[br]the proposals that are on the table. But
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also, it's important because European[br]Commission has a lot of influence also
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informally, both on member states and also[br]on - to an extent - on the whole trial
0:08:53.530,0:08:59.340
process. So whatever gains we have in[br]other versions or whatever better
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solutions we have there, they are not[br]secure yet. And I promise I'm almost
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done with this part. There is other[br]relevant legislation that we'll
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consider. One is the E-Commerce Directive.[br]And in this, the part that is
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very relevant is for this particular[br]conversation, is that the platforms,
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according to this law or Internet services[br]or hosting providers are not by default
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responsible for the content that users[br]play, place online. So it's a very
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important premise that also protects us,[br]protects our rights, protects our privacy,
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that the they are not, they cannot[br]go after us or they cannot look for, for
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the content that could be potentially[br]illegal, which would mean that they would
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have to look into everything. But of[br]course, they have to react when somebody
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notifies them and they have to see whether[br]the information that is placed by the
0:10:01.420,0:10:08.027
users should stay up or not. There is also[br]a directive on combating terrorism. And
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this is the piece of legislation that[br]is quite recent to my best
0:10:13.193,0:10:17.360
knowledge. Not all countries in the[br]European Union, not all member states have
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implemented it yet. So for us, it was also[br]very puzzling that we actually have a new
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law, a new proposal that is talking about[br]the communication part of, of what already
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has been mentioned in this directive. When[br]we still don't know how it works, we still
0:10:33.990,0:10:39.490
don't know because this law is physically[br]not being used at all. So this was for
0:10:39.490,0:10:46.170
us also difficult to understand why the[br]commission does not want to wait and see
0:10:46.170,0:10:55.025
how like what comes out from the[br]directive on combating terrorism. So
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why would the European Commission and why[br]the European legislators would
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actually want such a law that, again,[br]is about the content that people post
0:11:06.270,0:11:17.050
through different services and why this is[br]an important issue. If this is, why this
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issue is actually conflated with[br]the market questions and the
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harmonization in the digital market. So[br]there are some serious numbers here. 94 %
0:11:28.650,0:11:33.610
and 99 %. And I'm wondering if you have[br]any idea what those numbers are about.
0:11:33.610,0:11:36.220
Audience: Persons.[br]Anna: I'm sorry?
0:11:36.220,0:11:41.348
Audience: Persons.[br]Anna: Yes. It's about people. But the
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numbers are actually presenting, so there[br]was a survey done by Eurostat and those
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numbers present the percentage of[br]people first number 94 % presents the
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percentage of people that say that they[br]have not come across terrorist content
0:11:59.210,0:12:09.100
online. Right. So, inversely, only 6 %[br]of people actually say that they had
0:12:09.100,0:12:13.110
access to terrorist content, it's[br]important to underline that they say it
0:12:13.110,0:12:19.320
because there's no way to check what that[br]content actually was and of course we can,
0:12:19.320,0:12:25.160
you know, here is the analogy of what a[br]certain American judge said about
0:12:25.160,0:12:29.420
pornography. I know it when I see it. It's[br]not a very good definition of anything,
0:12:29.420,0:12:36.460
really. So I would argue that actually[br]6 % of people being affected by something
0:12:36.460,0:12:40.300
is not really a big percentage and that[br]the European Union actually has bigger
0:12:40.300,0:12:45.950
problems to deal with and where they can[br]spend money and energy on. E.g., we are
0:12:45.950,0:12:49.978
all affected by, I don't know, air[br]pollution and that's much more people.
0:12:49.978,0:12:57.261
89% are the people in the age range[br]between 15 and 24. But again, were not
0:12:57.261,0:13:00.981
affected by something what they would[br]consider terrorist content. Of course,
0:13:00.981,0:13:04.134
would somebody think of the children?[br]There you go.
0:13:04.134,0:13:08.020
The children and young people do[br]not also experience
0:13:08.020,0:13:15.920
it in an overwhelming,[br]overwhelmingly. So, but this rationale
0:13:15.920,0:13:22.570
is being used, 6 % and 11 % as one[br]of the reasons why this regulation is
0:13:22.570,0:13:27.380
important, why this law is important. The[br]other is the exposure to, the other reason
0:13:27.380,0:13:32.470
is the exposure to imagery of violent[br]crimes via social media. So, of course, we
0:13:32.470,0:13:38.470
know that, that platforms such as Facebook[br]and YouTube contain all sorts of things
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that people look. We also know that[br]because of their business models, they
0:13:43.484,0:13:54.689
sometimes push controversial content or[br]violent content into, into peoples
0:13:54.689,0:13:59.570
proposal, that the proposals that[br]they give to people to, to watch or to
0:13:59.570,0:14:06.029
read. So this is, actually the 2nd part[br]is not addressed by this, by this
0:14:06.029,0:14:11.880
proposal at all. But nevertheless,[br]whenever we talk to the representatives of
0:14:11.880,0:14:17.060
the commission why this law is there, they[br]start waving, that was my experience that
0:14:17.060,0:14:21.500
the one of the meetings, the person[br]started waving his phone at me and saying,
0:14:21.500,0:14:25.217
"Well, you know, there are beheading[br]videos online and I can show you how
0:14:25.217,0:14:27.790
horrible it is", which I consider[br]to be an emotional
0:14:27.790,0:14:32.112
blackmail at best, but not really a[br]good regulatory impulse.
0:14:32.112,0:14:36.730
So I guess maybe the commission[br]people are somehow
0:14:36.730,0:14:41.630
mysteriously affected by that content more[br]than anything else. I don't mean to joke
0:14:41.630,0:14:49.160
about those, those videos because of[br]course, it is not something that I would
0:14:49.160,0:14:54.860
want to watch and, and it is very violent.[br]But I would also argue that the problem is
0:14:54.860,0:14:58.974
not that the video is there, but that[br]somebody has been beheaded. And this is
0:14:58.974,0:15:02.710
where we should actually direct our[br]attention and look for the sources of that
0:15:02.710,0:15:08.890
sort of behavior and not only to try and[br]clean the Internet. The other reason why,
0:15:08.890,0:15:16.870
why this law should be enacted is a[br]radicalisation. Of course, this is a,
0:15:16.870,0:15:21.903
this is a problem for certain[br]vulnerable populations and people. And we
0:15:21.903,0:15:25.970
can read about it a lot. And there are[br]organizations that are dealing with
0:15:25.970,0:15:31.720
strategies to counteract radicalisation.[br]Again, when we look at the evidence, what
0:15:31.720,0:15:38.459
is the, what is the relationship between[br]content that is available online and the
0:15:38.459,0:15:42.588
fact that people get radicalized in[br]different level, in different ways, that
0:15:42.588,0:15:46.060
we didn't see any research and the[br]commission also did not present any
0:15:46.060,0:15:50.870
research that would actually point to at[br]least the correlation between the two. So
0:15:50.870,0:15:56.649
again, asked about, so "How did you come[br]up with this idea since without really
0:15:56.649,0:16:02.825
actually showing the, the support for your[br]claim that radicalisation is connected to
0:16:02.825,0:16:08.519
that?" This is a quote from a meeting[br]that happened public and journalists were
0:16:08.519,0:16:12.590
there. Again, the person from the[br]commission said, "We had to make a guess,
0:16:12.590,0:16:18.560
so we made the guess that way." There is[br]the guess being, yes, there is some sort
0:16:18.560,0:16:23.501
of connection between the content and the[br]radicalisation. And then finally, when we
0:16:23.501,0:16:27.560
read the impact assessment and when we[br]look at the different articles, that or
0:16:27.560,0:16:33.027
different explanations that the European[br]Commission posts about the
0:16:33.027,0:16:38.850
rationale for this law, of course, they[br]bring the terrorists attack that have
0:16:38.850,0:16:47.300
been happening and they make, they swiftly[br]go from naming the different violent
0:16:47.300,0:16:52.930
events that have happened in[br]Europe very recently or quite recently.
0:16:52.930,0:16:58.459
And they swiftly make a connection between[br]the fact that somebody took a truck and
0:16:58.459,0:17:05.500
and run into a group of people. Or that[br]somebody was participating in the shooting
0:17:05.500,0:17:10.419
or organizing the shooting of people[br]enjoying themselves.They swiftly go from
0:17:10.419,0:17:15.350
this to the fact that regulation of the[br]content is needed. Which also, the fact
0:17:15.350,0:17:19.456
that you put something in one sentence[br]does not mean it makes sense. Right? So
0:17:19.456,0:17:24.290
this is also not very well documented.[br]Again, pressed about this, the
0:17:24.290,0:17:28.398
representative of the European Commission[br]said that, well, "We know that and it has
0:17:28.398,0:17:33.780
been proven in the investigation, that one[br]of the people that were responsible for
0:17:33.780,0:17:37.758
the Bataclan attack actually used the[br]Internet before that happened.
0:17:37.758,0:17:46.357
laughter[br]Yes. No more comment needed on that one.
0:17:46.357,0:17:52.160
So, well, clearly, there are "very good[br]reasons", quote unquote, to spend time
0:17:52.160,0:17:59.140
and citizens money on working on[br]the new law. And I always say that
0:17:59.140,0:18:03.102
basically these laws are created because,[br]not because there is a reason, but
0:18:03.102,0:18:06.439
because there is a do-something-doctrine.[br]Right. We have a problem, we
0:18:06.439,0:18:15.999
have to do something. And this is how this[br]law, I think, came to be. And the
0:18:15.999,0:18:22.990
do-something-doctrine in this particular[br]case, or also, of course, it encompasses a
0:18:22.990,0:18:28.330
very broad and blurry definition of that[br]law. I will talk about this more in a
0:18:28.330,0:18:33.620
moment. It also encompasses measures, we,[br]if we define something that we want to
0:18:33.620,0:18:41.370
counteract to, we have to basically say[br]what should happen. Right. So that the
0:18:41.370,0:18:46.192
problem is being solved. And there are 3[br]measures that they will also explain. One
0:18:46.192,0:18:50.809
is the removal orders. The other is[br]referrals. And the third are so-called
0:18:50.809,0:18:56.749
proactive measures. This is, I guess, the[br]part where we touch the prevention
0:18:56.749,0:19:06.501
most. And then the third issue is that,[br]the one of the things I also want to talk
0:19:06.501,0:19:10.340
about is the links between the content[br]that is being removed and the actual
0:19:10.340,0:19:14.780
investigations or prosecutions that may[br]occur, because of course it's possible
0:19:14.780,0:19:20.576
that there will be some content found that[br]actually does document the crime. And
0:19:20.576,0:19:32.510
then what do we do about that? So, going[br]forward, I do think that the definition
0:19:32.510,0:19:37.390
and this law is basically, its main[br]principle is to normalize the state
0:19:37.390,0:19:44.679
control over how people communicate and[br]what they wanted to say. As it was said
0:19:44.679,0:19:50.630
before, under the premise of terrorism, we[br]can actually pack a lot of different
0:19:50.630,0:19:56.890
things because people are afraid of this.[br]And we have also examples from other
0:19:56.890,0:20:02.740
topics, other laws that have been debated[br]in Brussels. One was public sector
0:20:02.740,0:20:10.080
information directive, where everybody was[br]very happy discussing how much public
0:20:10.080,0:20:13.980
information should be released and where[br]it should come from and how people should
0:20:13.980,0:20:18.980
have access to it. And a part of public[br]information is the information that is
0:20:18.980,0:20:23.760
produced by companies that perform public[br]services, but they may also be private,
0:20:23.760,0:20:28.027
for example, sometimes transport, public[br]transport is provided that way. And
0:20:28.027,0:20:31.929
actually public transport providers were[br]the ones that were saying that they cannot
0:20:31.929,0:20:36.549
release the information that they have,[br]namely timetables and other
0:20:36.549,0:20:44.270
information about how the system[br]works that could be useful for citizens
0:20:44.270,0:20:49.350
because then it may be used by terrorists.[br]I guess that maybe prevents the potential
0:20:49.350,0:20:53.510
terrorists from going from bus stop to bus[br]stop and figuring out how the buses go.
0:20:53.510,0:20:57.530
But we already know that this does not[br]work that way. So this is something
0:20:57.530,0:21:04.040
that actually normalizes this approach.[br]And let's first look at the definition of
0:21:04.040,0:21:09.899
the proposal as presented by the[br]European Commission. So they say
0:21:09.899,0:21:14.120
basically, let me read: "Terrorist content[br]means one or more of the following
0:21:14.120,0:21:20.720
information. So a) inciting or advocating,[br]including by glorifying, the commission of
0:21:20.720,0:21:25.990
terrorist offences". I do apologise for[br]the horrible level of English
0:21:25.990,0:21:32.040
that they use, I don't know why and that I[br]don't apologise for them, but for the fact
0:21:32.040,0:21:35.960
that they expose you to it. "The[br]commission of terrorist offences,
0:21:35.960,0:21:40.240
Clapping[br]thereby causing a danger that such acts be
0:21:40.240,0:21:44.650
committed". You won't believe how many[br]times I had to read all this to actually
0:21:44.650,0:21:48.525
understand what all those things mean.[br]"Encouraging the contribution to terrorist
0:21:48.525,0:21:56.749
offences". So contribution could be money,[br]could be some, I guess material resources.
0:21:56.749,0:22:00.679
"Promoting the activities of a terrorist[br]group, in particular by encouraging the
0:22:00.679,0:22:05.702
participation in or support to a[br]terrorist group. Instructing on methods or
0:22:05.702,0:22:10.076
techniques for the purpose of committing[br]terrorist offenses". And then there is
0:22:10.076,0:22:16.230
also the definition of "dissemination of[br]terrorist content". That basically means
0:22:16.230,0:22:20.490
"making terrorist content available to[br]third parties on the hosting service
0:22:20.490,0:22:26.830
providers services". As you can probably[br]see, the dissemination and the fact that
0:22:26.830,0:22:33.360
third parties are evoked mean that this[br]law is super broad. So it's not only about
0:22:33.360,0:22:38.200
social media because making content[br]available through third parties may mean
0:22:38.200,0:22:43.290
that I am sharing something over some sort[br]of service with my mom and she is a third
0:22:43.290,0:22:48.860
party in the understanding of this law. So[br]we were actually super troubled to see
0:22:48.860,0:22:54.350
that not only does it encompass services[br]that make information available to the
0:22:54.350,0:22:58.809
public. So the one that we all can see[br]like social media, but also that
0:22:58.809,0:23:04.530
potentially it could be used against[br]services that make, let people communicate
0:23:04.530,0:23:09.810
privately. So that is a that is a big[br]issue. The second thing I wanted to direct
0:23:09.810,0:23:17.660
your attention to is the parts that[br]they put in italics. It's how soft those
0:23:17.660,0:23:25.178
those concepts are, inciting, advocating,[br]glorifying, encouraging, promoting. This
0:23:25.178,0:23:29.470
is a law that actually potentially can[br]really influence how we talk and how to
0:23:29.470,0:23:33.610
communicate what we wanted to talk about,[br]whether we agree or disagree with certain
0:23:33.610,0:23:41.572
policies or certain political decisions.[br]And all those things are super soft. And
0:23:41.572,0:23:47.090
it's very, very hard to say what [br]does it really mean. And I want to
0:23:47.090,0:23:53.679
give you an example of the same[br]content used in 3 different cases to
0:23:53.679,0:23:59.820
illustrate this. So let's imagine we have[br]a group of people that recorded a video
0:23:59.820,0:24:03.950
and on those videos, they[br]say that, well, basically they call
0:24:03.950,0:24:10.650
themselves terrorists, to make it easier,[br]and they say that they wanted to
0:24:10.650,0:24:16.820
commit all sorts of horrible things in[br]specific places, so that constitutes like
0:24:16.820,0:24:21.702
some sort of a credible threat. And they[br]also bragged that they killed someone. And
0:24:21.702,0:24:25.401
they also say that they're super happy[br]about this and so on. And they also, of
0:24:25.401,0:24:29.620
course, encourage others to join them and[br]so on and so on. And the 3 cases would be:
0:24:29.620,0:24:35.871
1 would be that this particular group[br]posted videos on, I don't know, their
0:24:35.871,0:24:41.340
YouTube channel. The other case would be[br]that there is a media outlet that reports
0:24:41.340,0:24:47.265
on it and either links to this video or[br]maybe present snippets of it. And the
0:24:47.265,0:24:51.480
third case would be, for example, that[br]there is some sort of group that is
0:24:51.480,0:24:57.370
actually following what's happening in[br]that region and collects evidence that can
0:24:57.370,0:25:01.020
then help identify the people and[br]prosecute them for the crimes they commit.
0:25:01.020,0:25:07.975
Like the crime that's our[br]exemplary terrorists admitted to
0:25:07.975,0:25:13.400
committing. And do you think that[br]according to this definition, in your
0:25:13.400,0:25:18.347
opinion, do you think that there is a[br]difference between those 3 types of
0:25:18.347,0:25:23.020
presenting that content between the[br]terrorist group that is presenting it on
0:25:23.020,0:25:27.919
their channel, between the media outlet[br]and between the activists? There is none.
0:25:27.919,0:25:34.660
Because this law has nothing, does not[br]define in any way that the so-called
0:25:34.660,0:25:42.179
terrorist content is something that is[br]published with an intention of actually
0:25:42.179,0:25:48.980
advocating and glorifying. So the problem[br]is that not only does the content that,
0:25:48.980,0:25:54.226
let's say, is as weak as we may call it[br]manifestly illegal. So somebody kills
0:25:54.226,0:25:58.706
someone and is being recorded and we know[br]it's a crime and perhaps we don't want to
0:25:58.706,0:26:02.316
watch it, although I do think that we[br]should also have a discussion in our
0:26:02.316,0:26:08.350
society, what we wanted to see and[br]what we don't want to see.
0:26:08.350,0:26:12.780
From the fact, from the perspective that[br]the world is complicated and we may
0:26:12.780,0:26:17.480
have the right to access all sorts of[br]information, even that is not so
0:26:17.480,0:26:23.030
pleasant and not so easy to digest. So[br]this law does not make this
0:26:23.030,0:26:28.030
differentiation. There is no mention of[br]how this should be intentional to qualify
0:26:28.030,0:26:34.600
to be considered so-called terrorist[br]content. And that's a big problem. So as
0:26:34.600,0:26:38.810
you can see, there is a fallacy in this[br]narrative because these will be the member
0:26:38.810,0:26:45.809
states and their so-called competent[br]authorities that will be deciding what the
0:26:45.809,0:26:54.460
terrorist content is. And, of course,[br]Europeans have a tendency, a tendency to
0:26:54.460,0:26:59.900
think we have the tendency to think of[br]ourselves as the the societies and the
0:26:59.900,0:27:07.160
nations and the countries that champion[br]the rule of law and that and that actually
0:27:07.160,0:27:13.700
respect fundamental rights and expect,[br]respect freedom of speech. But we also
0:27:13.700,0:27:18.490
know that this is changing rapidly. And I[br]also will show you examples of how that
0:27:18.490,0:27:24.510
changes in this area that we're talking[br]about right now. So. So I do not have
0:27:24.510,0:27:29.546
great trust in in European governments[br]into making the correct judgment about
0:27:29.546,0:27:45.421
that. So. So we have this category of very[br]dubious and and very broad terrorist
0:27:45.421,0:27:56.250
content. And then, so how it's how it's[br]being done. The, the basically all that
0:27:56.250,0:28:01.169
power to decide what the content, like how[br]to deal with that content, is actually
0:28:01.169,0:28:04.880
outsourced to private actors. So the[br]platforms that we are talking about
0:28:04.880,0:28:09.450
becomes kind of mercenaries because[br]both the commission and I guess many
0:28:09.450,0:28:13.399
member states say, well, it's not possible[br]that the judge will actually look through
0:28:13.399,0:28:18.169
content that is placed online and give,[br]you know, proper judiciary decisions about
0:28:18.169,0:28:21.951
what should, what constitute freedom of[br]expression and what goes beyond it.
0:28:21.951,0:28:29.425
Because it hurts other people or[br]is basically a proof of something illegal.
0:28:29.425,0:28:32.900
So the platforms will take those[br]decisions. This will be the hosting
0:28:32.900,0:28:39.870
service providers, as I mentioned. And[br]then also a lot of the reliance that they
0:28:39.870,0:28:44.074
will do it right is put into the wishful[br]thinking in this proposal that says, well,
0:28:44.074,0:28:47.855
basically, you have to put in terms of[br]service that you will not host terrorist
0:28:47.855,0:28:52.550
content. So then that again, there is a[br]layer in there where the platform,
0:28:52.550,0:29:01.234
let's say Facebook or Twitter or any[br]anyone else actually decides what and how
0:29:01.234,0:29:06.890
they wanted to deal with that in detail.[br]Also, one thing I didn't mention is that
0:29:06.890,0:29:10.880
looking for this regulation and looking at[br]who is the platform that should basically
0:29:10.880,0:29:15.513
have those terms of service we realize[br]that Wikimedia that actually our platforms
0:29:15.513,0:29:21.210
will actually be in the scope of that. So[br]not only that may affect the way we can
0:29:21.210,0:29:29.340
document and reference the articles that[br]are appearing on Wikipedia, on all those
0:29:29.340,0:29:34.090
all those, on the events that are[br]described or the groups or the political
0:29:34.090,0:29:39.990
situation and what not. But also that, you[br]know, our community of editors will have
0:29:39.990,0:29:44.792
less and less to say if we have to put a[br]lot of emphasis on terms of service. I
0:29:44.792,0:29:49.530
just think that we are somehow a[br]collateral damage of this. But also this
0:29:49.530,0:29:54.860
doesn't console me much because, of[br]course, Internet is bigger than than our
0:29:54.860,0:30:00.379
projects. And also, we want to make sure[br]that, that content is not being removed
0:30:00.379,0:30:07.845
elsewhere. So basically the 3 measures are[br]the removal orders, as I mentioned. And
0:30:07.845,0:30:11.690
this is something that is fairly, fairly[br]straightforward. And actually, I'm
0:30:11.690,0:30:15.830
wondering why there has to be a special[br]law to bring it, because, to being
0:30:15.830,0:30:20.410
because the removal order is basically a[br]decision that the competent authority in
0:30:20.410,0:30:24.950
the member state releases and sends it to[br]the platform. The problem is that
0:30:24.950,0:30:30.204
according to the commission, the platform[br]should actually act on it in 1 hour. And
0:30:30.204,0:30:34.586
then again, we ask them why 1 hour and not[br]74 minutes? And they say, "Well, because
0:30:34.586,0:30:39.705
we actually know", I don't know how, but[br]they say they do. Let's take it at face
0:30:39.705,0:30:46.250
value. "We actually know that the content[br]is the most, you know, viral and spreads
0:30:46.250,0:30:50.602
the fastest within, has the biggest range[br]within the 1 hour from appearance". And
0:30:50.602,0:30:54.475
then we ask them "Well, but how can you[br]know that? Actually, the people that find
0:30:54.475,0:30:59.800
the content find it exactly on the moment[br]when it comes up. Maybe it has been around
0:30:59.800,0:31:05.940
for 2 weeks and this 1 hour window when it[br]went really viral is like long gone". And
0:31:05.940,0:31:11.730
here they don't really answer, obviously.[br]So this is one of the measures
0:31:11.730,0:31:17.090
that I guess makes the most sense out of[br]all of that. Then we have the referrals
0:31:17.090,0:31:20.100
that we call lazy removal[br]orders. And this is this is really
0:31:20.100,0:31:23.834
something that is very puzzling for me[br]because the referral is a situation in
0:31:23.834,0:31:28.090
which this competent authority and the[br]person working there goes through the
0:31:28.090,0:31:33.480
content, through the videos or postings[br]and looks at it and says, "Well, I think,
0:31:33.480,0:31:38.908
I think it's against the terms of service[br]of this platform, but does not actually
0:31:38.908,0:31:43.740
release this removal order, but writes to[br]the platform, let's them know and say,
0:31:43.740,0:31:48.809
"Hey, can you please check this out?" I'm[br]sorry, I'm confused, is this the time that
0:31:48.809,0:31:56.223
I have left or the time? OK, good, time is[br]important here. So so basically, you know,
0:31:56.223,0:32:00.250
they are basically, won't spend the time[br]to prepare this removal order
0:32:00.250,0:32:05.840
and right and take let the platform to,[br]tell the platform actually to remove it.
0:32:05.840,0:32:09.490
But they will just ask them to please[br]verify whether this content should be
0:32:09.490,0:32:14.821
there or not. And first of all, this is[br]the real outsourcing of power
0:32:14.821,0:32:20.063
over the speech and expression. But[br]also we know how platforms take those
0:32:20.063,0:32:26.240
decisions. They have a very short time.[br]The people that do it are sitting
0:32:26.240,0:32:30.650
somewhere, most probably where the content[br]is not originating from. So they don't
0:32:30.650,0:32:34.418
understand the context. Sometimes they[br]don't understand the language. And also,
0:32:34.418,0:32:38.062
you know, it's better to get rid of it[br]just in case it really is problematic,
0:32:38.062,0:32:42.240
right? So this is something that is[br]completely increased this great gray area
0:32:42.240,0:32:51.559
of information that is controversial[br]enough to be flagged, but it's not illegal
0:32:51.559,0:32:57.070
enough to be removed by the order. By the[br]way, the European Parliament actually
0:32:57.070,0:33:03.200
kicked this out from their version. So now[br]the fight is in this negotiation between
0:33:03.200,0:33:07.598
the 3 institutions to actually follow this[br]recommendation and just remove it, because
0:33:07.598,0:33:13.230
it really does not make sense. And it[br]really makes the people that
0:33:13.230,0:33:17.700
release those referrals not really[br]accountable for their decisions
0:33:17.700,0:33:22.449
because they don't take the decision. They[br]just make a suggestion. And then we have
0:33:22.449,0:33:26.629
the proactive measures, which most[br]definitely will lead to over-policing of
0:33:26.629,0:33:31.799
content. There is a whole, a very clever[br]description in the law that basically
0:33:31.799,0:33:35.940
boils down to the point that if you are[br]going to use content filtering and if
0:33:35.940,0:33:40.677
you're going to prevent content from[br]disappearing, then basically you are
0:33:40.677,0:33:44.320
doing a good job as a platform. And[br]this is the way to actually deal with
0:33:44.320,0:33:50.648
terrorist content. Since, however we[br]define it, again, this is very
0:33:50.648,0:33:56.079
context-oriented, very context-dependent. [br]It's really very difficult to say based on
0:33:56.079,0:33:59.829
what sort of criteria and based, based on[br]what sort of databases those
0:33:59.829,0:34:05.242
automated processes will be, will be[br]happening. So, of course,
0:34:05.242,0:34:10.159
as it happens in today's world,[br]Somebody privatizes
0:34:10.159,0:34:17.299
the profits, but the losses are[br]always socialized. And this is now no
0:34:17.299,0:34:23.849
exception from that rule. So, again, when[br]we were talking to the European Commission
0:34:23.849,0:34:29.320
and asking them, "Why is this not a piece[br]of legislation that belongs to the
0:34:29.320,0:34:36.560
enforcement of the law?" And that is then[br]not controlled by a heavily by the
0:34:36.560,0:34:40.620
judiciary system and by any other sort of[br]oversight, that enforcements usually had.
0:34:40.620,0:34:44.460
"They have, well, because, you know,[br]when we have those videos of beheadings,
0:34:44.460,0:34:48.334
they usually don't happen in Europe and[br]they are really beyond our jurisdiction".
0:34:48.334,0:34:51.628
So, of course, nobody will act on it.[br]On the very meaningful level of
0:34:51.628,0:34:54.259
actually finding the people[br]that that are killing,
0:34:54.259,0:34:57.129
that are in the business of [br]killing others and making
0:34:57.129,0:35:02.873
sure they cannot continue with this[br]activity. So it's very clear that this
0:35:02.873,0:35:08.470
whole law is about cleaning the Internet[br]and not really about a meaningfully
0:35:08.470,0:35:18.500
tackling societal problems that lead to[br]that sort of violence. Also the
0:35:18.500,0:35:22.540
redress, which is the mechanism in which[br]the user can say, hey, this is not the
0:35:22.540,0:35:26.459
right decision. I actually believe this[br]content is not illegal at all. And it's
0:35:26.459,0:35:31.397
important for me to say this and this is[br]my right and I want it to be up. Those,
0:35:31.397,0:35:38.570
those provisions are very weak. You cannot[br]actually protest meaningfully against a
0:35:38.570,0:35:42.670
removal order of your content. Of course,[br]you can always take states, the states to
0:35:42.670,0:35:47.640
court. But we know how amazingly[br]interesting that is and how fast it
0:35:47.640,0:35:53.030
happens. So that, so we can I think we[br]can agree that there is no meaningful way
0:35:53.030,0:36:00.140
to actually protest. Also, the state may[br]ask, well, actually, this this removal
0:36:00.140,0:36:05.410
order should... the user should not be[br]informed that the content has been has
0:36:05.410,0:36:10.690
been taken down because of terrorism.[br]So. Or depicting terrorism or glorifying
0:36:10.690,0:36:16.193
or whatever. So even you may not even know[br]why the content is taken down. It will be
0:36:16.193,0:36:22.013
a secret. For referrals and for proactive[br]measures, well, you know what? Go talk to
0:36:22.013,0:36:26.535
the platform and protest with them. And[br]then, of course, the other question is, so
0:36:26.535,0:36:30.506
who is the terrorist? Right. Because this[br]is a very important question that that we
0:36:30.506,0:36:37.589
should have answered if we wanted to... if[br]we wanted to have a law that actually is
0:36:37.589,0:36:42.330
meaningfully engaging with those issues.[br]And of course, well, the as you know
0:36:42.330,0:36:48.591
already from what I said, the European[br]Commission in that particular case does
0:36:48.591,0:36:54.398
not provide a very good answer. But we[br]have some other responses to that. For
0:36:54.398,0:37:03.367
example, Europol has created a report and[br]then there was a blog post based on that.
0:37:03.367,0:37:07.622
On the title "On the importance of taking[br]down non-violent terrorist content".
0:37:07.622,0:37:11.428
So we have the European Commission that[br]says, "Yes, it's about the beheadings and
0:37:11.428,0:37:15.576
about the mutilations". And we have[br]Europol that says, "You know, actually
0:37:15.576,0:37:19.879
this non-violent terrorist content is[br]super important". So basically what they
0:37:19.879,0:37:25.459
say and I quote, "Poetry is a literary[br]medium that is widely appreciated across
0:37:25.459,0:37:30.457
the Arab world and is an important part[br]of their region's identity. Mastering it
0:37:30.457,0:37:34.810
provides the poet with singular authority[br]in Arabic culture. The most prominent
0:37:34.810,0:37:39.660
jihadi leaders - including Osama bin Laden[br]and former Islamic State spokesman
0:37:39.660,0:37:43.196
Abu Muhammad al-Adnadi - frequently[br]included poetry in their
0:37:43.196,0:37:46.447
speeches or wrote poems of their own.[br]Their charisma was
0:37:46.447,0:37:49.380
closely intertwined with their[br]mastery of poetry."
0:37:49.380,0:37:54.810
So we can see the art that is being made[br]by Europol between a very important aspect
0:37:54.810,0:37:59.260
of a culture that is beautiful and[br]enriching and about the fact that this,
0:37:59.260,0:38:03.460
that, that Europol wants it to see it[br]weaponized. The other part of the blogpost
0:38:03.460,0:38:08.369
was about how ISIS presents interesting[br]activities that their members... their,
0:38:08.369,0:38:12.531
their... their fighters have. And one of[br]them is that they are enjoying themselves
0:38:12.531,0:38:16.936
and smiling and spending time together and[br]swimming. So what? How do we, what do we
0:38:16.936,0:38:20.228
make out of that? So the video of some[br]brown people swimming are now
0:38:20.228,0:38:27.760
terrorist content? This is... the blatant[br]racism of, of this, of this communication
0:38:27.760,0:38:33.359
really enrages me. And I think it's really[br]a shame that that nobody called Europol
0:38:33.359,0:38:39.530
out on this, when the blogpost came up. We[br]also have laws in Europe that are
0:38:39.530,0:38:44.770
different. I mean, this is not the same[br]legislation, but that actually give the...
0:38:44.770,0:38:51.466
give the the taste of what may happen. One[br]is the the Spanish law against hate
0:38:51.466,0:38:57.111
speech. And, and this is an important[br]part. It didn't happen online, but it
0:38:57.111,0:39:02.500
shows the approach, that basically first[br]you have legislators that say, oh, don't
0:39:02.500,0:39:06.450
worry about this, we really want to go[br]after bad guys. And then what happens is
0:39:06.450,0:39:10.930
that there was a puppeteer performance[br]done by 2 people, "The Witch and Don
0:39:10.930,0:39:15.840
Christóbal" and the puppets were[br]actually... this is the kind of
0:39:15.840,0:39:22.890
Punch and Judy performance in which, this[br]is a genre of, of theater, theatric
0:39:22.890,0:39:30.109
performances, I'm sorry. That is kind of[br]full of silly jokes and and sometimes
0:39:30.109,0:39:36.000
excessive and and unjustified violence[br]and, and the, and the full of bad taste.
0:39:36.000,0:39:40.860
And this is quite serious. And the, the 2[br]characters in the, the 2 puppets held the
0:39:40.860,0:39:46.400
banner that featured a made-up terrorist[br]organization. And after that performance,
0:39:46.400,0:39:52.410
actually, they were charged with, first of[br]all, promoting terrorism, even though
0:39:52.410,0:39:55.940
there is no terrorist organization like[br]that. And then also with inciting,
0:39:55.940,0:40:01.859
inciting hatred. And this is what's one of[br]the puppeteers said after describing this
0:40:01.859,0:40:07.270
whole horrible experience. Finally, the[br]charges were dropped. So this is good. But
0:40:07.270,0:40:11.570
I think this really sums up who is the[br]terrorists and how those laws are being
0:40:11.570,0:40:20.103
used against people who actually have[br]nothing to do with, with violence. We were
0:40:20.103,0:40:23.981
charged with inciting hatred, which is a[br]felony created in theory to protect
0:40:23.981,0:40:27.228
vulnerable minorities, the minorities in[br]this case where the church,
0:40:27.228,0:40:29.868
the police and the legal system.[br]laughter
0:40:29.868,0:40:33.569
Then, again in Spain, I don't want to[br]single out this beautiful country, but
0:40:33.569,0:40:36.998
actually, unfortunately, they[br]have good examples. This is a very recent
0:40:36.998,0:40:44.310
one. So Tsunami Democràtic in Catalonia[br]created an app to actually help people
0:40:44.310,0:40:49.770
organize small action in a decentralized[br]manner. And they placed the documentations
0:40:49.770,0:40:56.609
on GitHub. And it was taken down by the[br]order of, of the Spanish court. And also
0:40:56.609,0:41:01.463
the - and this is the practical[br]application of such laws online - also,
0:41:01.463,0:41:06.600
the website of Tsunami Democràtic[br]was taken down by the court. Of course,
0:41:06.600,0:41:10.580
both of that on charges[br]of of facilitating terrorist
0:41:10.580,0:41:15.790
activities and inciting to [br]terrorism. So why is it important?
0:41:15.790,0:41:19.776
Because of what comes next. So[br]there will be the Digital Services Act,
0:41:19.776,0:41:23.651
which will be an overhaul of this idea[br]that I mentioned at the beginning, which
0:41:23.651,0:41:27.850
is that basically platform are not[br]responsible by default, by what we put
0:41:27.850,0:41:34.250
online. And European Commission and[br]other, the European Commission and other
0:41:34.250,0:41:38.070
actors in the EU are toying with the idea[br]that maybe platforms should be somehow
0:41:38.070,0:41:43.800
responsible. So, of course. And it's not[br]only about social media, but basically
0:41:43.800,0:41:51.180
anybody that any sort of, of a service[br]that helps people place content online.
0:41:51.180,0:41:54.900
And then, the, one of the ideas, we[br]don't know what it's going to be, it's not
0:41:54.900,0:41:58.176
there yet. It's going to happen at the[br]beginning of the next year, so
0:41:58.176,0:42:01.864
quite soon. But we can actually[br]expect that the so-called "Good Samaritan"
0:42:01.864,0:42:05.704
rule will be 1 of the solutions proposed.[br]What is this rule? This rule basically
0:42:05.704,0:42:11.090
means if a platform is really going the[br]extra mile and doing a good job in
0:42:11.090,0:42:16.851
removing the content, that is what... that[br]is either illegal or again or again, a
0:42:16.851,0:42:22.987
very difficult category, harmful. I also[br]don't know what that exactly means. Then
0:42:22.987,0:42:27.758
if they behave well, then they will not be[br]held responsible. So this is basically a
0:42:27.758,0:42:31.838
proposal that you cannot really turn down,[br]because if you run the business, you want
0:42:31.838,0:42:35.675
to manage the risk of that and you don't[br]want to be fined. And you and you don't
0:42:35.675,0:42:40.070
want to pay, pay money. So, of course, you[br]try and overpolice and of course you try
0:42:40.070,0:42:44.120
and you filter the content and of course[br]you take content when it only raises a
0:42:44.120,0:42:52.320
question what sort of... what sort of[br]content that is. Is it neutral or
0:42:52.320,0:43:00.330
is it maybe, you know, making somebody[br]offended or... or stirred? And, of course,
0:43:00.330,0:43:05.480
other attempts, we heard it from Germany.[br]Which is basically that there wasn't a
0:43:05.480,0:43:15.220
proposal to actually make... oblige.. like[br]make platforms obliged to give passwords
0:43:15.220,0:43:21.193
of users of social media. The people that[br]are under investigation or prosecution.
0:43:21.193,0:43:26.829
And also, of course, we see that one of[br]the ideas that supposedly is going to fix
0:43:26.829,0:43:31.677
everything is that, well, if terrorists[br]communicate through encrypted services,
0:43:31.677,0:43:35.485
then maybe we should do something about[br]encryption. And there was a petition
0:43:35.485,0:43:41.890
already on (?) to actually go in to[br]actually forbid encryption for those
0:43:41.890,0:43:46.540
services after one of the one of the[br]terrorist attacks. So, of course, it
0:43:46.540,0:43:53.109
sounds, it sounds very extreme. But[br]this is, in my opinion, the next the next
0:43:53.109,0:44:00.383
frontier here. So what can we do? Because[br]this is all quite difficult. So as I
0:44:00.383,0:44:04.920
mentioned, the negotiations are still on.[br]So there is still time to talk to
0:44:04.920,0:44:08.880
your government. And this is very import[br]because, of course, the governments, when
0:44:08.880,0:44:12.850
they have this idea... they have this[br]proposal on the table, that they will be
0:44:12.850,0:44:18.360
able to decide finally who is[br]the terrorist and what is the terrorist
0:44:18.360,0:44:23.000
content. And also, that's on one hand. On[br]the other hand, they know that people
0:44:23.000,0:44:26.650
don't really care all that much about what[br]happens in the E.U., which is
0:44:26.650,0:44:31.383
unfortunately true. They are actually[br]supporting very much the commission's
0:44:31.383,0:44:35.188
proposals. The only thing that they don't[br]like is the fact that somebody from the
0:44:35.188,0:44:41.710
police, from other country can maybe[br]interfere with content in their language,
0:44:41.710,0:44:46.570
because that's one of the provisions that[br]that also is there. So, so this is what
0:44:46.570,0:44:50.950
they don't like. They want to keep their[br]there the territoriality of their
0:44:50.950,0:44:56.701
enforcement laws intact. But there is[br]still time and we can still do this. And
0:44:56.701,0:45:00.220
if you want to talk to me about[br]what are the good ways to do it, I'm
0:45:00.220,0:45:04.778
available here. And I would love to take[br]that conversation up with you. The other
0:45:04.778,0:45:11.374
is a very simple measure that I believe is[br]is always working. Is one that basically
0:45:11.374,0:45:16.119
is about telling just 1 friend, even 1[br]friend, and asking them to do the same to
0:45:16.119,0:45:20.134
talk to other people about this. And there[br]are 2 reasons to do it. One is because, of
0:45:20.134,0:45:23.666
course, then we make people aware of what[br]it happens. And the other in this
0:45:23.666,0:45:29.350
particular case that is very important is[br]that basically people are scared of
0:45:29.350,0:45:33.284
terrorism and, and they support a lot of[br]measures just because they hear this word.
0:45:33.284,0:45:36.999
And when we explain, that, what that[br]really means and when we unpack this a
0:45:36.999,0:45:40.392
little bit, we build the resilience to[br]those arguments. And I think it's
0:45:40.392,0:45:43.017
important. The other people[br]who should know about this
0:45:43.017,0:45:46.377
are activists working with[br]vulnerable groups because of the
0:45:46.377,0:45:50.355
stigmatization that I[br]already mentioned and because
0:45:50.355,0:45:54.804
of the fact that we need to document[br]horrible things that are happening to
0:45:54.804,0:45:58.703
people in other places in the world and[br]also here in Europe. And journalists
0:45:58.703,0:46:02.824
and media organizations, because they[br]will be affected by this law. And by the
0:46:02.824,0:46:06.918
way, how they can report and where they[br]can they can get the sources for their
0:46:06.918,0:46:12.025
information. So I think I went massively[br]over time from what it was planned. I hope
0:46:12.025,0:46:16.760
we can still have some questions. Thank[br]you. So, yeah. Talk to me more about this
0:46:16.760,0:46:23.058
now and then after the talk. Thank you.
0:46:23.058,0:46:33.057
applause
0:46:33.057,0:46:37.310
Herald: Thanks for your talk. We still[br]have time for questions, so please, if you
0:46:37.310,0:46:42.600
have a question, line up at the mics. We[br]have 1, 2, 3 evenly distributed through
0:46:42.600,0:46:47.231
the room. I want to remind you really[br]quickly that a question normally is one
0:46:47.231,0:46:50.520
sentence and ends with a question mark.[br]laughter
0:46:50.520,0:46:55.530
Not everybody seems to know that. So we[br]start with mic number 2.
0:46:55.530,0:47:02.460
Mic2: Hello. I... so I run Tor Relays in[br]the United States. It seems like a lot of
0:47:02.460,0:47:07.570
these laws are focused on the notion of[br]centralized platforms. Do they define what
0:47:07.570,0:47:12.400
a platform is and are they going to[br]extradite me because I am facilitating Tor
0:47:12.400,0:47:16.249
Onion service?[br]A: Should we answer, no?
0:47:16.249,0:47:21.895
H: Yeah.[br]A: Okay, yes, so they do and they don't
0:47:21.895,0:47:26.000
in a way that the definition it's[br]based on basically what
0:47:26.000,0:47:30.839
the the hosting provider[br]is in in the European law is
0:47:30.839,0:47:36.089
actually very broad. So it doesn't take[br]into account the fact how big you are or
0:47:36.089,0:47:42.420
how you run your services. The bottom line[br]is that if you allow people to put content
0:47:42.420,0:47:47.161
up and share it with, again, 3rd party,[br]which may be the whole room here, it may
0:47:47.161,0:47:51.460
be the whole world but it may be just the[br]people I want to share things to with.
0:47:51.460,0:47:57.750
Then then you're obliged to to use the[br]measures that are... or, or to comply with
0:47:57.750,0:48:01.940
the measures that are envisioned in this[br]regulation. And there is a there's a
0:48:01.940,0:48:06.590
debate also in the parliament. It was[br]taken up and narrowed down actually to the
0:48:06.590,0:48:11.520
communication to the public. So I guess[br]then as you correctly observe, it is more
0:48:11.520,0:48:17.130
about about the big platforms or about the[br]centralized services. But actually the, in
0:48:17.130,0:48:20.849
the commission version, nothing makes me[br]believe that, that only then will be
0:48:20.849,0:48:26.358
affected. On the contrary, also the, the[br]messaging services may be.
0:48:26.358,0:48:34.880
H: Okay, um, next question, mic number 3.[br]Mic3: Is it, uh, a photo with the upload
0:48:34.880,0:48:41.250
filters, the copyright directive, it was[br]really similar debate, especially on
0:48:41.250,0:48:46.589
small companies, because, um, uh, at that[br]time, the question was they tried to push
0:48:46.589,0:48:51.010
upload filters for copyright content. And[br]the question was, uh, how does that fit
0:48:51.010,0:48:55.871
with small companies? And they still[br]haven't provided an answer to that. Uh,
0:48:55.871,0:48:59.560
the problem is they took the copyright[br]directive and basically inspired
0:48:59.560,0:49:04.041
themselves from the upload filters and[br]applied it to terrorist content. And it's
0:49:04.041,0:49:07.928
again, the question, how does that work[br]with small Internet companies that have to
0:49:07.928,0:49:13.788
have someone on call during the[br]nights and things like that. So even big
0:49:13.788,0:49:17.380
providers, I heard they don't have the[br]means to, to properly enforce that
0:49:17.380,0:49:22.569
something like this, this is a[br]killer for the European Internet industry.
0:49:22.569,0:49:26.060
A: Yes.[br]laughter
0:49:26.060,0:49:32.230
applause[br]H: I want to give a short reminder on the
0:49:32.230,0:49:39.339
1 sentence rule. We have a question from[br]the Internet. Signal angel, please.
0:49:39.339,0:49:44.696
Signal Angel: Yes, what, the question is,[br]wouldn't decentralized social networks
0:49:44.696,0:49:52.429
bypass these regulations?[br]A: I'm not a lawyer, but I will give a
0:49:52.429,0:49:55.902
question, I give an answer to this[br]question that the lawyer would give,
0:49:55.902,0:49:58.709
I maybe spent too much time with lawyers.[br]That depends.
0:49:58.709,0:50:01.220
laughter[br]A: Because it really does, because this
0:50:01.220,0:50:05.800
definition of who is obliged is so broad[br]that a lot depends on the context, a lot
0:50:05.800,0:50:10.940
depends on what is happening, what is[br]being shared and how. So it's, it's very
0:50:10.940,0:50:14.718
difficult to say. I just want to say that[br]we also had this conversation about
0:50:14.718,0:50:20.489
copyright and many people came to me last[br]year at Congress. I wasn't giving a talk
0:50:20.489,0:50:24.806
about it, but I was at the talk about the[br]copyright directive and the filtering. And
0:50:24.806,0:50:28.649
many people said, well, actually, you[br]know, if you're not using those services,
0:50:28.649,0:50:32.540
you will not be affected. And actually,[br]when we share peer to peer, then this is
0:50:32.540,0:50:36.820
not an issue. But actually, this is[br]changing. And there is actually
0:50:36.820,0:50:41.959
a decision of the European Court of[br]Justice. And the decisions are not like
0:50:41.959,0:50:45.242
basically the law, but basically they[br]are very often then followed and
0:50:45.242,0:50:49.319
incorporated. And this is the... and this[br]is the decision on the Pirate Bay and
0:50:49.319,0:50:53.680
in... on Pirate Bay. And in this decision,[br]the court says that, well, the argument
0:50:53.680,0:50:57.716
that Pirate Bay made was basically we're[br]not hosting any content. We're just
0:50:57.716,0:51:03.986
connecting people with it. And in short,[br]and the court said, well,
0:51:03.986,0:51:09.148
actually, we don't care. Because you[br]organize it, you optimize it, you like
0:51:09.148,0:51:12.269
the info, you optimize the[br]information, you bring it to people.
0:51:12.269,0:51:15.696
And the fact that you don't share[br]it does not really mean anything. And
0:51:15.696,0:51:20.280
you are liable for the, for the copyright[br]infringements. So, again, this is about a
0:51:20.280,0:51:26.700
different issue, but this is a very[br]relevant way of thinking that we may
0:51:26.700,0:51:30.670
expect that it will be translated into[br]other types of content. So, again, the
0:51:30.670,0:51:36.040
fact that that you don't host anything but[br]you just connect people to one another
0:51:36.040,0:51:42.480
will not be... may not be something that,[br]that will take you off the hook.
0:51:42.480,0:51:49.190
H: Microphone number 3.[br]Mic3: Do these proposals contain or...
0:51:49.190,0:51:54.572
what sort of repercussions do these[br]proposals contained for filing a request,
0:51:54.572,0:51:58.921
removal requests that are later determined[br]to be illegitimate? Is this just a free
0:51:58.921,0:52:03.460
pass to censor things? Or can.... are[br]there repercussions?
0:52:03.460,0:52:07.619
A: You... just want to make sure I[br]understand, you mean the removal orders,
0:52:07.619,0:52:09.867
the ones that say remove content, and[br]that's it?
0:52:09.867,0:52:13.450
Mic3: Yeah. If somebody files a removal[br]order that is determined later to be
0:52:13.450,0:52:16.868
completely illegitimate. Are there[br]repercussions?
0:52:16.868,0:52:22.882
A: Well, the problem starts even before[br]that because again, the removal orders are
0:52:22.882,0:52:26.839
being issued by competent authorities. So[br]there's like a designated authority that
0:52:26.839,0:52:31.206
can do it. Not everybody can. And[br]basically, the order says this is the
0:52:31.206,0:52:36.410
content. This is the URL. This is the[br]legal basis. Take it down. So there is no
0:52:36.410,0:52:41.452
way to protest it. And the platform can[br]only not follow this order within 1 hour
0:52:41.452,0:52:46.094
in 2 situations. One is that the force[br]majeure, that is usually the issue.
0:52:46.094,0:52:49.706
Basically, there's some sort of external[br]circumstance that prevents them from
0:52:49.706,0:52:52.432
doing it. I don't know.[br]Complete power outage
0:52:52.432,0:52:55.272
or problem with their servers[br]that basically they cannot
0:52:55.272,0:52:59.550
access and remove or block access[br]to this content. The other is if the
0:52:59.550,0:53:04.796
request... the removal order, I'm sorry,[br]contains errors that actually make it
0:53:04.796,0:53:09.300
impossible to do. So, for example, there[br]is no URL or it's broken and it doesn't
0:53:09.300,0:53:13.565
lead anywhere. And these are the only 2[br]situations. In the rest, the content has
0:53:13.565,0:53:19.839
to be removed. And there is no way for the[br]user and no way for the platform
0:53:19.839,0:53:23.829
to actually say, well, hold on, this is[br]not the way to do it. And therefore, after
0:53:23.829,0:53:28.690
it's being implemented to say, well, that[br]was a bad decision. As I said, you can
0:53:28.690,0:53:33.569
always go to court with the, with your[br]state, but not many people will do it.
0:53:33.569,0:53:39.223
And this is not really a meaningful[br]way to address this.
0:53:39.223,0:53:46.260
H: Next question. Mic number 3.[br]Mic3: How many... how much time do we have
0:53:46.260,0:53:50.890
to contact the parliamentarians to inform[br]them maybe that there is some big issue
0:53:50.890,0:53:55.450
with this? What's the worst case[br]timetable at the moment?
0:53:55.450,0:53:59.630
A: That's a very good question. And thank[br]you for asking because... this ... because
0:53:59.630,0:54:05.020
I forgot to mention this. That actually is[br]quite urgent. So the commission wanted to,
0:54:05.020,0:54:10.210
like usually, in those situations, the[br]commission wanted to close the thing until
0:54:10.210,0:54:14.631
the end of the year and they didn't manage[br]it because there is no, no agreement
0:54:14.631,0:54:20.240
on those most pressing issues.[br]But we expect that the, the best
0:54:20.240,0:54:25.900
case scenario is that until March, maybe[br]until June, it will probably happen
0:54:25.900,0:54:31.280
earlier. It may be the next couple of[br]months. And there will be lots of meetings
0:54:31.280,0:54:36.950
about about that. So this is more or less[br]the timeline. It's, there's no sort of
0:54:36.950,0:54:41.507
external deadline for this, right, so this[br]is just an estimation and of course,
0:54:41.507,0:54:44.320
it may change, but, but this is what we[br]expect.
0:54:44.320,0:54:46.950
H: We have another question from the[br]Internet.
0:54:46.950,0:54:52.500
S: Does this law considers that[br]such content is used for psychological
0:54:52.500,0:54:58.748
warfare by big nations?[br]A: I'm sorry. I... Again, please.
0:54:58.748,0:55:04.130
S: This, this content is, pictures or [br]video of whatsever, does this law
0:55:04.130,0:55:08.520
consider that such content is used for[br]psychological warfare?
0:55:08.520,0:55:17.730
A: Well, I'm trying to see how that[br]relates. I think the law is... does not go
0:55:17.730,0:55:24.589
into details like that in a way. Which[br]means that I can go back to the definition
0:55:24.589,0:55:31.740
that basically it's just about the fact[br]that if the content appears to be positive
0:55:31.740,0:55:37.550
about terrorist activities, then that's[br]the basis of taking it down. But there's
0:55:37.550,0:55:42.350
nothing else that is being actually said[br]about that. It's not more nuanced than
0:55:42.350,0:55:48.590
that. So I guess the answer is no.[br]H: One last question from mic number 2.
0:55:48.590,0:55:54.690
Mic2: Are there, in... any case studies[br]published on successful application of
0:55:54.690,0:55:59.035
alike laws in other countries? I asked[br]because we have alike laws in
0:55:59.035,0:56:06.718
Russia for 12 years and it's not that[br]useful as far as I see.
0:56:06.718,0:56:11.218
A: Not that I know of. So I think[br]it's also a very difficult
0:56:11.218,0:56:15.840
thing to research because we[br]can only research what, what we
0:56:15.840,0:56:21.181
know that happened. Right? In a way that[br]you have to have people that actually are
0:56:21.181,0:56:27.210
vocal about this and that complain about[br]these laws not being enforced in the
0:56:27.210,0:56:32.030
proper way. So, for example, content that[br]taken down is completely about something
0:56:32.030,0:56:39.113
else, which also sometimes happens. And,[br]and that's very difficult. I think
0:56:39.113,0:56:45.330
the biggest question here is[br]whether there is an amount of studies
0:56:45.330,0:56:49.920
documenting that something does not work[br]that would prevent the European Union from
0:56:49.920,0:56:56.710
actually having this legislative fever.[br]And I would argue that not, because, as
0:56:56.710,0:57:00.859
they said, they don't have really good[br]arguments or they don't really have good
0:57:00.859,0:57:05.829
numbers to justify bringing this law at[br]all. Not to mention bringing the
0:57:05.829,0:57:12.418
ridiculous measures that they propose.[br]So what we say sometimes
0:57:12.418,0:57:15.631
in Brussels when we're very frustrated[br]that we we were hoping, you
0:57:15.631,0:57:21.309
know, being there and advocating for for[br]human rights, is that we... we hoped
0:57:21.309,0:57:26.000
for... that we can contribute to evidence[br]based policy. But actually, what's
0:57:26.000,0:57:31.678
happening, it's a policy based evidence.[br]And, and this is the difficult part. So I
0:57:31.678,0:57:37.819
am all for studies and I am all for[br]presenting information that, you know, may
0:57:37.819,0:57:41.734
possibly help legislators. There are[br]definitely some MEP or some people there,
0:57:41.734,0:57:45.599
even probably in the commission. Maybe[br]they just are not allowed to voice
0:57:45.599,0:57:50.650
their opinion on this because it's a[br]highly political issue that would wish to
0:57:50.650,0:57:54.930
have those studies or would wish to be[br]able to use them. And that believe in
0:57:54.930,0:58:00.779
that. But it's just, it doesn't[br]translate into the political process.
0:58:00.779,0:58:06.682
H: Okay. Time's up. If you have any[br]more questions, you can come
0:58:06.682,0:58:09.564
up and approach Anna later.[br]A: Yes.
0:58:09.564,0:58:14.498
H: There is please. Thanks.[br]So first for me.
0:58:14.498,0:58:17.060
Thanks for the talk. Thanks for[br]patiently answer...
0:58:17.060,0:58:20.899
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