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Herald Angel (H): OK, probably a couple[br]years ago you realize that a lot of the
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refugees coming up from Syria and North[br]Africa where we're communicating. We're
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using technology in an interesting way to[br]find their way around a lot of the Border
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Patrol's. A lot of the hurdles that were[br]put up in their way. In the US we have a
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similar issue but it's different in many[br]ways with illegal immigrants trying to
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stay underneath the radar. Allison[br]McDonald from the University of Michigan
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is, has been studying how immigrants in[br]the States deal with technology and it's
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very different from here. Her interests[br]are in technology, privacy, society and
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human rights and I think we're gonna have[br]an awesome talk from her. So, well, please
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welcome her and we'll get moving.[br]Applause
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Allision McDonald: OK, thanks for coming.[br]I'm Allison from the University of
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Michigan. I'm talking today primarily[br]about technology in immigration
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enforcement and specifically about how the[br]immigrant community in the United States
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is responding to those changes and[br]especially the undocumented community.
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Before we get too far into the details I[br]just wanted to tell a little bit of a
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story. This is Anna Maria she is not a[br]real person she is sort of a compositive
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of many people that we spoke to but her[br]story is really representative of a lot of
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people that we know are living in[br]the United States today. She and her
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husband emigrated from Mexico about 12[br]years ago into the United States. She
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really wanted to have children, but[br]couldn't get the fertility support that
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she needed in Mexico so she came to the[br]United States. And now she and her husband
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have two children who are attending US[br]public schools. She and her husband are
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both working and saving up to buy a[br]house. They pay taxes; they attend church
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every Sunday. They're involved in a lot of[br]community events and are really integrated
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into the local community. One[br]difference from Anna Maria and a lot of
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other people is that she's in the United[br]States as an undocumented immigrant. What
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this means is that she either entered the[br]United States without legal authorization
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or she came on a Visa and overstayed the[br]allotted time. That means that day to day
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she has to worry about being found and[br]deported back to Mexico, removed from her
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home and this puts her in quite a[br]precarious situation trying to live a
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normal life, a life similar to a lot of[br]other people in our communities. But with
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this constant concern that this life[br]could be taken away from her if she's
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detected. Other than this this one point[br]she really lives this immigration story
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that the United States loves to tell. We[br]love to have this narrative of people
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being able to come to the United States[br]and build lives for themselves that they
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might not be able to build in their[br]origin countries. And that's exactly
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what she's done. But just as natural to[br]this immigration story is a history of a
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lot of discrimination, racism and[br]xenophobia. All the way back in the 1700s
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we've had legislation that prevents people[br]from becoming citizens based on their
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origin country. We've had, for example,[br]the Chinese Exclusion Act preventing
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people from China laborers coming to the[br]United States entirely. The Asiatic barred
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zone a couple years later just drew a box[br]on a map and said the people in this
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region can't immigrate to the United[br]States. We've also seen things like the
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Johnson Reed Immigration Act in the 1900s[br]where the the US took census data from
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before a big wave of immigration putting a[br]quota system in place that essentially
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prevented people from eastern and southern[br]Europe from coming to the United States.
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This history of discrimination and racism[br]continues to today. Many of you, I'm sure
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have heard of what's happening now with[br]the so-called Muslim ban where a list of
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seven countries are now blacklisted.[br]Immigrants are unable to enter the
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country. And this is just another data[br]point to show the trend that our discourse
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and immigration policy in the United[br]States is often racialized. I want to talk
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a little bit about what immigration[br]enforcement actually looks like in the
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United States. The agency that manages[br]enforcement is called the US Immigration
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and Customs Enforcement or ICE. They're in[br]charge of enforcing within the borders
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once people have already entered the[br]country, finding people without
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documentation or managing immigration[br]cases. Over the last couple of decades
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they've really been gaining in size and[br]power. This is anything from the removal
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of privacy restrictions on sharing data[br]between federal agencies to an increase in
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financial resources after 9/11. And this[br]is happening even today. President Trump
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back in January had an executive order[br]that is looking to add another 5,000
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agents to their current 20,000 over the[br]next couple of years. So this is an agency
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that's continuing should be bolstered. And[br]another way that they're changing,
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recently, is the way that they're[br]integrating technology into their jobs.
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This photo in particular shows a[br]fingerprint scanner. The collection of
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biometric data is becoming really common[br]in immigration enforcements. And it's not
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just when someone's taken into an[br]immigration office but mobile fingerprint
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scanners are being taken into communities.[br]There are stories of people having their
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biometric data taken, even without arrest.[br]Being stopped in the street or being near
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someone who's being detained for a[br]particular reason. Everyone in the area or
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everyone in the household having their[br]biometric data taken. We've also seen the
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removal of some restrictions on how this[br]data can be shared between federal
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agencies. In particular President Trump[br]has reinstated the Secure Communities
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Program which allows local police officers[br]when they're booking people for local
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crimes or in local jails to take biometric[br]data and cross-check it against federal
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immigration databases and crime databases.[br]We're also seeing evidence that,... So
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DHS, is the Department of Homeland[br]Security the umbrella organization over
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ICE. We have recently seen through a[br]Freedom of Information request that this
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organization has used cell-site simulators[br]or stingrays over 1,800 times in the last
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five years. We don't know all of the cases[br]where these have been used. And we really
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can't speculate these cases are shrouded[br]in secrecy and we don't know when and how
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they're being used. But we do have one[br]case, it's actually close to my home in
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Detroit Michigan where an undocumented[br]man, ICE was able to send a warrant to
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Facebook to get his phone number and then[br]use that phone number with a cell site
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simulator to track him to his home and[br]ended up deporting him to El Salvador.
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We're also seeing this move to start[br]collecting social media data at the
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borders. This isn't just for people on[br]temporary visas but also nationlised
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citizens and people with permanent[br]residency cards. This might not be so
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relevant to people who are already in the[br]country because they're not crossing the
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border regularly, but this might be[br]impactful if they have friends and family
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crossing borders to visit them. And new[br]immigrants as well. This is a database
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that we don't really know what it's being[br]used for yet. But there are some hints in
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the way that, for example, ICE has been[br]soliciting contracts from big data
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companies to create algorithms to do this[br]extreme vetting to be able to find
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suspicious activity or suspicious people[br]from troves of social media data. In fact
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we have already seen some of these[br]contracts being awarded. There was a 3
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million contract recently given to a[br]company called Giant Oak who claims to
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take big data and find bad guys. Their[br]creepy slogans, "We see the people behind
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the data" 'trademark'. And this is just[br]another example of the way that technology
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is being used to... in ways that are sort[br]of unpredictable at this point but
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we have many examples where this[br]style of research can often be
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discriminatory. And it might be expected[br]that at this point in time technologies
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ending up integrated into law enforcement[br]in the way that it's being integrated into
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a lot of different parts of our lives. But[br]there's a reason that this moment in
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particular is so frightening. This[br]administration's making it abundantly
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clear what they think of immigration. Just[br]in less than a year so far we've seen the
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repeal of the deferred action for[br]Childhood Arrivals Program which you might
0:10:54.470,0:11:00.839
also hear as the DREAM Act or people here[br]talking about Dreamers. This is a program
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that allowed people who entered the[br]country under the age of 16 to get work
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permits and driver licenses and attend[br]university and have their immigration
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cases delayed so long as they're meeting[br]educational goals. We've seen the
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elimination of privacy protections from[br]sharing data between federal agencies. And
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in addition to the actual concrete policy[br]changes, we're hearing a lot of really
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nasty rhetoric around immigrants and[br]immigration. That's causing a lot of
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concern among people who are in the[br]immigrant community or who are allies to
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the immigrant community about what this[br]means in terms of harassment and hatred
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even beyond the the legal changes. We're[br]also seeing a change in deportation
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practices while Obama was prolific in[br]deportations. He had a very explicit
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policy in place that the priority[br]deportations would be people who were
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national security threats whatever that[br]might mean, or people with serious
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criminal records, or people who had just[br]recently entered the United States. That
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policy is being removed and we're seeing[br]more and more people who are deported
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after living in the United States for a[br]long time with family and friends and
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lives built in the communities; who might[br]have family or children who are US
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citizens who don't have criminal records.[br]So what does this mean for Anna Maria? For
0:12:47.039,0:12:51.269
one without a criminal record. She[br]previously might have been able to have
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some high amount of confidence that she[br]wouldn't be a priority target and that
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confidence is being eroded. We're [br]seeing lots of people who previously
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wouldn't have been targeted be deported[br]regardless of their clean record, and lack
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of action that really makes them more[br]visible than they have been in the past.
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She and her husband are starting to think[br]about, what happens to their children if
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they're deported. They have to make the[br]decision because the children were born in
0:13:25.119,0:13:29.949
the United States, they're US citizens.[br]They have to decide whether they should
0:13:29.949,0:13:33.939
give custody to friends and family who can[br]stay in the United States, or if they
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should take them back to Mexico, rather[br]than letting them stay and get the US
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education that they want to have. She has[br]to be concerned about ICE being in her
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community and outside of her home.[br]Possibly having her fingerprints taken if
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she's in the wrong place at the wrong[br]time. She might have to worry about
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friends and family from Mexico visiting,[br]and crossing the border, and having social
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media data taken from them. That, I mean,[br]as we all know, might indicate a lot more
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than just about the person who's crossing[br]the border. Our social media lives give a
0:14:10.649,0:14:17.000
lot of information about her networks that[br]might expose information about her. It's
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also worth noting that Anna Maria is far[br]from alone. There are as many as 11
0:14:20.459,0:14:25.049
million undocumented immigrants in the[br]United States today. Over 2/3 of them have
0:14:25.049,0:14:29.000
been in the United States for more than 10[br]years which means they're integrated into
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our communities, they own houses, they[br]have jobs, they pay taxes, they live
0:14:35.059,0:14:40.410
really normal lives to the extent that[br]they can in the United States. They've
0:14:40.410,0:14:48.629
built their lives here. So with this[br]context in mind, I and some of my
0:14:48.629,0:14:53.809
collaborators were wondering, how this is[br]really changing the way that people use
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technology? Or if it is, given the sort of[br]objectively heightened risk that they're
0:15:00.629,0:15:04.899
facing day to day. We wanted to know[br]whether or not there's any sort of
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reaction to those changes happening in[br]their daily lives. We reached out to some
0:15:14.549,0:15:18.879
immigration support organizations, so[br]immigrant rights and activist's
0:15:18.879,0:15:25.820
organizations and worked with them to be[br]able to communicate with this community.
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In the end, we were able to talk to 17[br]undocumented immigrants in the Midwest. We
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were primarily asking them about how they[br]manage risk in their daily lives offline,
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as well as online. And whether or not[br]that's changing over the last year or two
0:15:42.529,0:15:46.499
years, when this discourse around[br]immigration is really changing, and then
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whether these changes that we're seeing,[br]are causing them to maybe react in the way
0:15:53.980,0:16:00.570
that they're using technology. I can tell[br]you a little bit about who we spoke to.
0:16:00.570,0:16:07.039
The majority were women, 14 of our 17[br]participants were women. Most of them were
0:16:07.039,0:16:12.809
in their mid 30s, average age 35. And lots[br]of them had children. So it was a lot of
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parents. Everyone that we spoke to, had[br]been in the United States for more than 10
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years. So they really had their lives and[br]their communities here. And most of them
0:16:23.189,0:16:26.999
were also from Mexico. That's about[br]consistent with the immigrant community in
0:16:26.999,0:16:33.684
the United States, especially from Latin[br]America. The majority are from Mexico. And
0:16:33.684,0:16:37.239
then there was a mix of immigration[br]stories. Some of the people we spoke to
0:16:37.239,0:16:43.209
had crossed the southern border by foot or[br]otherwise. And some people had overstayed
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visas, had flown to the United States and[br]stayed. So we wanted to first get an idea
0:16:53.120,0:16:57.290
of how they're managing and sort of[br]thinking about risk in their daily lives
0:16:57.290,0:17:05.409
offline to get a sense of how deeply it[br]impacts the way that they're living. What
0:17:05.409,0:17:10.410
we found across the board is that[br]immigration is a really sort of looming
0:17:10.410,0:17:15.609
presence in their lives. They think a lot[br]about how they're exposing themselves, and
0:17:15.609,0:17:22.199
that possibly exposing their status to[br]authority figures. And they put like a lot
0:17:22.199,0:17:29.980
of careful consideration into how to keep[br]a low profile. Driving is one really good
0:17:29.980,0:17:37.950
example of this cost-risk cost-benefit[br]analysis that they're doing. Most people
0:17:37.950,0:17:40.809
we spoke to you talked about driving one[br]way or another, and about half chose to
0:17:40.809,0:17:47.210
drive and half chose not to. Most of the[br]people don't have driver's licenses for
0:17:47.210,0:17:51.510
the United States because it's difficult[br]to get them without legal immigration
0:17:51.510,0:17:57.940
papers. So the risk with driving is that[br]if you're stopped, if you're pulled over,
0:17:57.940,0:18:02.100
even if you didn't have a traffic[br]violation, if you stop for a taillight or
0:18:02.100,0:18:06.428
something. The routine is to ask for a[br]documentation of your license. And if you
0:18:06.428,0:18:09.149
don't have that there might be more[br]questions, and in the end, you could
0:18:09.149,0:18:17.179
expose yourself to immigration or other[br]legal law enforcement. Some people really
0:18:17.179,0:18:23.300
thought that the risk was worth it. To[br]live their lives how they want to. They're
0:18:23.300,0:18:26.679
going to try to just not think about the[br]risk and do what they need to do day to
0:18:26.679,0:18:33.269
day. Other people felt that the risk was[br]too great and chose not to drive at all.
0:18:33.269,0:18:36.600
And that's a significant sacrifice,[br]especially in the United States where our
0:18:36.600,0:18:40.950
public transportation systems aren't[br]fantastic. This might mean that they can't
0:18:40.950,0:18:44.121
set their own work schedules, or they[br]can't take their kids to school if they
0:18:44.121,0:18:49.750
miss the bus. So it's a significant risk.[br]But it's also a big sacrifice if they
0:18:49.750,0:18:56.769
choose not to drive. People also think a[br]lot about how they're exposing themselves
0:18:56.769,0:19:03.835
to authority figures. As one example, the[br]decision to file taxes or not is a big
0:19:03.835,0:19:09.980
risk. So in the United States, you don't[br]need to have any sort of government ID to
0:19:09.980,0:19:17.309
file taxes, you just need a tax ID. So a[br]lot of these people are filing taxes. But
0:19:17.309,0:19:21.769
in order to do that, they are giving up to[br]the federal government their names, their
0:19:21.769,0:19:27.410
addresses, their employment history,[br]contact information. And some people think
0:19:27.410,0:19:32.880
that that risk is worth it, right. Because[br]this person for example feels like, by
0:19:32.880,0:19:40.980
paying taxes every year they're able to[br]establish a good history of upstanding
0:19:40.980,0:19:45.389
behavior. They can maybe have a better[br]case for getting a legal status if the
0:19:45.389,0:19:56.950
time comes, when that's an option. And[br]another example of, you know, exposing
0:19:56.950,0:20:02.409
information to authorities, might be[br]filing for benefits for US born children,
0:20:02.409,0:20:09.019
or even library cards, or local ID cards.[br]And the risk is going to be different in
0:20:09.019,0:20:13.840
each case depending on what they're[br]exposing. Some people chose to forego
0:20:13.840,0:20:20.519
significant benefits to avoid giving that[br]information to authorities. This person is
0:20:20.519,0:20:25.997
talking about DACA, the deferred action[br]for childhood arrival program. This would
0:20:25.997,0:20:30.661
make it much easier for their son to go to[br]college, give their son hopefully if they
0:20:30.661,0:20:36.282
trust the program, a much more reliable[br]immigration status. They wouldn't
0:20:36.282,0:20:41.210
technically have a legal immigration[br]status but they would be sort of assured
0:20:41.210,0:20:45.882
that their status, or rather their[br]immigration case is a low priority. They
0:20:45.882,0:20:49.600
wouldn't be targeted. And as long as[br]they're attending universities, they could
0:20:49.600,0:20:56.180
have confidence. So the program says that[br]they wouldn't be targeted. These people
0:20:56.180,0:21:00.669
were concerned because in order to file[br]that paperwork for their son, they had to
0:21:00.669,0:21:03.564
give up a lot of information about[br]themselves: their phone numbers, their
0:21:03.564,0:21:09.780
names, their addresses. And in the end,[br]they decided not to do it. And
0:21:09.780,0:21:14.333
unfortunately, only weeks after we spoke[br]to this person, the DACA program was
0:21:14.333,0:21:19.240
repealed. This has led a lot of people to[br]be concerned because the people who did
0:21:19.240,0:21:23.130
apply for the program, have given that[br]information to the government, to the
0:21:23.130,0:21:27.889
Immigration services in particular. And at[br]this point in time, we have no assurances
0:21:27.889,0:21:32.930
that that information won't be used in[br]immigration cases. At the moment, there's
0:21:32.930,0:21:38.690
just a sort of FAQ page that says, we[br]don't use this information now but we
0:21:38.690,0:21:47.390
reserve the right to change that at any[br]time without telling anyone. People are
0:21:47.390,0:21:51.639
also really feeling the changes that are[br]happening in the last couple of months.
0:21:51.639,0:21:57.539
Well, it's been too many months, the last[br]year and a half. They're feeling the
0:21:57.539,0:22:02.691
pressure in their communities for[br]immigration services being, or immigration
0:22:02.691,0:22:09.679
enforcement being more present and less[br]predictable. Of one person described
0:22:09.679,0:22:13.399
feeling like, instead of coming to take a[br]particular person, they're just coming and
0:22:13.399,0:22:19.020
looking for anyone who might be[br]undocumented. Many people that we spoke
0:22:19.020,0:22:24.269
to, had negative experiences with ICE.[br]Including,... if it weren't,... if they
0:22:24.269,0:22:27.559
hadn't had to experience themselves, lots[br]of people had friends and family who had
0:22:27.559,0:22:32.669
negative experiences. And they're feeling[br]this increase in presence of enforcement
0:22:32.669,0:22:38.070
in their communities. And this is leading[br]them to make significant changes to the
0:22:38.070,0:22:43.080
way that they're living their lives. For[br]example, one person we spoke to talked
0:22:43.080,0:22:47.080
about how they won't leave their child at[br]home alone anymore because they're worried
0:22:47.080,0:22:51.559
that, while they're out, their child; if[br]they're picked up while they're out, and
0:22:51.559,0:22:56.220
the child's at home alone, they might be[br]left there. Or ICE might even show up at
0:22:56.220,0:22:58.963
the house while the child's there alone.[br]They don't want either of those things to
0:22:58.963,0:23:07.030
happen. So people are changing a lot of[br]the ways that they live day to day. And
0:23:07.030,0:23:12.690
this is a very present concern, in the way[br]that they talk about their daily lives. So
0:23:12.690,0:23:15.590
we were wondering if this is true when[br]they think about the way that they use
0:23:15.590,0:23:22.480
technology and what they're doing online.[br]First, let me just give you an overview of
0:23:22.480,0:23:27.270
what sort of technologies they primarily[br]use. This community is really mobile
0:23:27.270,0:23:31.889
heavy. Some people had computers in the[br]home. A lot of people had access to
0:23:31.889,0:23:35.380
computers through local libraries and[br]things. But everyone had a smartphone and
0:23:35.380,0:23:40.460
they were very dependent on it. Some[br]people used email but when they spoke
0:23:40.460,0:23:47.590
about email, it was mostly to do with[br]communicating with their kids schools or
0:23:47.590,0:23:51.350
doctor's appointments. It wasn't really a[br]social thing. So the majority of what we
0:23:51.350,0:23:57.080
spoke to people about, were social media[br]tools. In particular, all but one of our
0:23:57.080,0:24:03.429
participants were active users of[br]Facebook. Most people were using WhatsApp
0:24:03.429,0:24:09.520
and Facebook Messenger, as well. These are[br]the three primary tools that people had
0:24:09.520,0:24:16.120
the most to say about. There were some[br]other tools that they were on: Instagram,
0:24:16.120,0:24:23.070
Twitter, and Snapchat. But really, the[br]overarching, sort of a sense that people
0:24:23.070,0:24:26.289
had about these tools is that it's[br]bringing significant benefits to their
0:24:26.289,0:24:31.200
daily lives. Especially, when you think[br]about this community being separated
0:24:31.200,0:24:36.610
permanently from a lot of their friends[br]and family back home, or their former
0:24:36.610,0:24:42.500
home, their origin country. What they had[br]to do before, maybe sending photos in the
0:24:42.500,0:24:46.610
mail or through post cards, buying[br]international calling cards, being able to
0:24:46.610,0:24:50.779
call people with video chat now is a[br]significant improvement to their ability
0:24:50.779,0:24:56.450
to keep in touch with people back in[br]Mexico or in wherever their... the origin
0:24:56.450,0:25:02.990
country is. People also talked about, how[br]it's improving their lives in other ways.
0:25:02.990,0:25:06.750
For example, being able to organize their[br]own work schedules, and have more control
0:25:06.750,0:25:12.179
over the way that they're employed. The[br]benefits go on and on, and it's a lot of
0:25:12.179,0:25:15.429
the same things that we've experienced[br]over the last decade, and the way that our
0:25:15.429,0:25:21.440
lives have changed for the better. Because[br]we're able to use these technologies. When
0:25:21.440,0:25:26.162
we ask people about risk, the things that[br]really pop into their heads first, are
0:25:26.162,0:25:32.581
hackers. They're really concerned about[br]fraud and identity theft. And they think a
0:25:32.581,0:25:37.700
lot about their children contacting[br]strangers on the internet, or accessing
0:25:37.700,0:25:47.679
inappropriate content. But that's not to[br]say that concerns related to their status,
0:25:47.679,0:25:57.620
their illegal status were absent. They're[br]just much less certain. You know, it's
0:25:57.620,0:26:03.539
easy to think about the consequences of[br]identity theft. That's sort of concrete.
0:26:03.539,0:26:12.379
But a lot of these status related concerns[br]were less concrete. People talked about
0:26:12.379,0:26:17.399
harassment as well, being something that's[br]increasing in the real world, as well as
0:26:17.399,0:26:28.049
online. In particular participating in[br]communities, or in conversations online
0:26:28.049,0:26:33.639
that may be expose their immigration[br]status. This harassment has moved online.
0:26:33.639,0:26:38.620
They're experiencing it in the real world,[br]as well, but they're hearing stories or
0:26:38.620,0:26:42.039
having stories themselves about people[br]threatening them with immigration
0:26:42.039,0:26:54.049
enforcement. That's increasing over the[br]last year or so. There are a couple of
0:26:54.049,0:27:00.860
ways that people manage these risks.[br]Primarily, what we found people really
0:27:00.860,0:27:07.029
thought about, is their concrete steps to[br]managing their privacy online were fairly
0:27:07.029,0:27:11.671
basic things like, making sure that they[br]only accept friends and family on
0:27:11.671,0:27:19.580
Facebook. They might have set their[br]profile to private. But they're really not
0:27:19.580,0:27:24.159
fiddling with these more fine-grained[br]privacy settings. They're not, you know,
0:27:24.159,0:27:27.942
sharing particular posts only to[br]particular people, or using that. They
0:27:27.942,0:27:30.789
were talking about, they didn't tell us[br]about using these, like private groups or
0:27:30.789,0:27:40.419
anything like that to sort of create[br]separate spheres of friends and family.
0:27:40.419,0:27:45.179
And channel management, just in the sense[br]that like, even though they think about
0:27:45.179,0:27:49.309
curating this, like close network of[br]friends and family, they're still really
0:27:49.309,0:27:55.280
thoughtful about what they post in which[br]channel. Whether like it's safe to put a
0:27:55.280,0:27:59.159
photo, for example on their wall, or you[br]know, in their timeline versus sending it
0:27:59.159,0:28:07.210
directly to family. This person, for[br]example, even after they post something
0:28:07.210,0:28:13.710
publicly, publicly being, you know. within[br]their Facebook wall, they'll still go back
0:28:13.710,0:28:16.789
to a couple days later and just delete[br]everything because they're not totally
0:28:16.789,0:28:27.820
confident that that's private. Another[br]really interesting thing is that in all of
0:28:27.820,0:28:32.150
this, the conversations we had, no one[br]really expressed the sense that they
0:28:32.150,0:28:39.259
understood that they're really living on[br]Facebook. The tools that they're using
0:28:39.259,0:28:46.679
like almost exclusively, are all owned by[br]the same company. No one also express any
0:28:46.679,0:28:51.429
sort of sense that these companies are[br]entities in themselves that might have
0:28:51.429,0:28:56.950
interest in access to their data. Much[br]less one that cooperates with law
0:28:56.950,0:29:05.190
enforcement. That concern didn't appear in[br]any of our conversations. They tend to
0:29:05.190,0:29:09.789
think about these platforms as being sort[br]of a medium to communicate with other
0:29:09.789,0:29:17.340
people. You know, the way that they use[br]it, is to talk to other individuals, or
0:29:17.340,0:29:21.300
groups of individuals. But the platform[br]doesn't seem to be like a repository for
0:29:21.300,0:29:28.409
data. In fact, they are expressing[br]significant trust in Facebook, Facebook in
0:29:28.409,0:29:32.510
particular. A lot of people were grateful[br]for the changes that Facebook's made over
0:29:32.510,0:29:40.289
the last year or two, in terms of account[br]management. So they're grateful that if
0:29:40.289,0:29:44.169
there's a suspicious login attempt,[br]they'll be able to stop it. That's helped
0:29:44.169,0:29:48.659
a lot of people. And that sort of[br]generates trust in these platforms. And
0:29:48.659,0:30:01.370
the sense that Facebook really has their[br]back. In addition to sort of managing the
0:30:01.370,0:30:06.129
way that they're sharing information, we[br]did see some people choosing to abstain
0:30:06.129,0:30:12.049
from sharing. Especially, when it came to[br]topics around immigration. Some people
0:30:12.049,0:30:18.320
chose to not join, you know, public[br]Facebook groups, or get information from
0:30:18.320,0:30:22.040
certain places because they were afraid[br]that by associating with these groups,
0:30:22.040,0:30:32.529
they might indicate something publicly[br]about their status. And that's frustrating
0:30:32.529,0:30:35.080
for a lot of people who want to[br]participate in these conversations, and
0:30:35.080,0:30:38.830
especially, because the discourse around[br]immigration is so toxic in the United
0:30:38.830,0:30:45.750
States. Some people express this feeling[br]that they have to just sit there and take
0:30:45.750,0:30:51.010
this discourse happening around them[br]without participating, because they're
0:30:51.010,0:30:57.019
worried about being targeted, or harassed,[br]or maybe even like having physical
0:30:57.019,0:31:00.529
consequences: being followed, or having[br]immigration sent to their house if someone
0:31:00.529,0:31:09.129
were to find them. Some people expressed[br]the opposite, though, which is
0:31:09.129,0:31:16.240
encouraging, right? Some people felt that,[br]even though the risk is there, it's more
0:31:16.240,0:31:20.399
important for them to share their thoughts[br]than it is for them to be tiptoeing around
0:31:20.399,0:31:27.929
immigration enforcement. This is also[br]really interesting because this sort of
0:31:27.929,0:31:34.289
exposes sometimes family tensions about[br]these topics. This is a really, it's a
0:31:34.289,0:31:37.720
mixed status community, meaning that[br]sometimes parents will be undocumented and
0:31:37.720,0:31:42.690
children will be US citizens. Or lots of[br]people have friends and family who have a
0:31:42.690,0:31:47.652
different legal status than they do. So[br]risk is really distributed. You know, it's
0:31:47.652,0:31:52.410
not just individual, it's within families[br]and within communities. And there can be a
0:31:52.410,0:31:57.049
lot of tension between, you know, children[br]and parents, or friends, you know,
0:31:57.049,0:32:01.210
siblings, about how they share information[br]on these platforms. Some people are much
0:32:01.210,0:32:09.889
more conservative with what they share.[br]And this quote also reveals something else
0:32:09.889,0:32:17.340
kind of interesting. When we talk to[br]people about concerns about immigration,
0:32:17.340,0:32:21.679
it's very rarely that they talk about[br]whether immigration will be able to
0:32:21.679,0:32:27.980
investigate them, as much as it is about[br]when, which is this final point that
0:32:27.980,0:32:33.809
there's really this sense of resignation[br]in the community about what information
0:32:33.809,0:32:43.919
immigration enforcement has about them.[br]Lots of people feel like, it doesn't
0:32:43.919,0:32:50.600
really matter what they do. Immigration[br]can know where they are and what they're
0:32:50.600,0:32:55.230
doing. They can find them if they just[br]decide to. It's just a matter of whether
0:32:55.230,0:32:59.269
immigration enforcement is going to choose[br]to come after them, rather than whether
0:32:59.269,0:33:08.670
they can. This is also true with the way[br]that they think about technology. They
0:33:08.670,0:33:15.639
have a sense that there's really no[br]privacy. If immigration decided to, they
0:33:15.639,0:33:20.389
would be able to see the messages on[br]Facebook, they could see what was
0:33:20.389,0:33:25.559
physically on their phones, that they have[br]this sort of all-powerful, you know,
0:33:25.559,0:33:31.539
toolkit to access their digital[br]information. And honestly, this story in
0:33:31.539,0:33:39.178
particular, this sense of surveillance[br]comes from experience often. This person
0:33:39.178,0:33:44.190
had a really negative experience with ICE,[br]you know, coming and talking to her
0:33:44.190,0:33:49.309
family. And ICE knowing things that they[br]hadn't told anyone. Somehow ICE had known
0:33:49.309,0:33:53.110
things that they were keeping very[br]private. And so there's this assumption
0:33:53.110,0:33:56.570
that, well, it's happened to me before,[br]I've seen it happen to my friends, they
0:33:56.570,0:34:08.139
probably could know anything they want to.[br]But it's not all negative, it's not all
0:34:08.139,0:34:14.000
resignation. Another thing that we saw,[br]many people, not everyone, but maybe half
0:34:14.000,0:34:16.389
of the people we spoke to, had this really[br]strong sense that there was this
0:34:16.389,0:34:21.230
responsibility to share things in the[br]community to help each other. There's this
0:34:21.230,0:34:29.290
growing sense of community identity. And[br]this might mean sharing information about
0:34:29.290,0:34:34.650
resources for the immigrant community or[br]sharing information about workshops, or
0:34:34.650,0:34:41.440
events, vigils, but also information about[br]immigration enforcement. If ICE is in a
0:34:41.440,0:34:45.800
particular community, they might tell[br]their friends and family, avoid this area
0:34:45.800,0:34:50.440
until further notice. They're helping each[br]other, they're sending information. So, it
0:34:50.440,0:34:54.210
can't be total resignation. There's still[br]this sort of beam of hope that they're
0:34:54.210,0:34:57.600
helping each other. And they must have[br]hope that they can do something because
0:34:57.600,0:35:03.260
they are. And this has been something that[br]has become faster and easier with
0:35:03.260,0:35:08.680
technology, too, right? It's much easier[br]to send a message than it is to call, or
0:35:08.680,0:35:17.270
to spread information before we had, you[br]know, smartphones. But all of this really
0:35:17.270,0:35:20.650
leads to the question: Considering how[br]much they inconvenience themselves in
0:35:20.650,0:35:25.200
their daily lives offline, why are they[br]doing comparatively little online to
0:35:25.200,0:35:32.700
change their practices, or to reduce their[br]visibility? I don't think it's enough
0:35:32.700,0:35:38.510
that, although lots of people expressed[br]this sense that they're like relatively
0:35:38.510,0:35:46.370
low-tech literate. That in and of itself[br]isn't really enough of an explanation,
0:35:46.370,0:35:50.490
right? There are so many different factors[br]into the way that they're making these
0:35:50.490,0:35:55.600
decisions, and they're thinking carefully[br]about the decisions they do make. So we
0:35:55.600,0:36:00.660
have some thoughts on this. It really[br]can't be understated how much of a benefit
0:36:00.660,0:36:05.540
technology is to this community. It's[br]making a significant difference in the way
0:36:05.540,0:36:14.869
that they live their lives. So the choice[br]to abstain is not trivial. The risk that
0:36:14.869,0:36:19.080
they're facing by using like Facebook, by[br]putting phone numbers on Facebook, or
0:36:19.080,0:36:23.760
sharing photos of their family and[br]friends, and like, building these online
0:36:23.760,0:36:29.650
networks, is, really the risk involved in[br]that is uncertain, right? At this point we
0:36:29.650,0:36:34.580
have really sparse data about direct[br]connections between the use of technology,
0:36:34.580,0:36:39.670
or the use of social media and immigration[br]enforcement, and consequences. Maybe that
0:36:39.670,0:36:43.640
will change, but at this point it's[br]unclear which changes might be actually
0:36:43.640,0:36:48.860
beneficial, right? Because there's not a[br]direct connection between using this tool,
0:36:48.860,0:36:55.500
putting this information online, and[br]immigration enforcement showing up.
0:36:55.500,0:37:00.770
There's also the significant trust in the[br]platforms that they're using and their
0:37:00.770,0:37:08.080
peers are using as well and there just[br]tends to be less critical thought about
0:37:08.080,0:37:13.620
the safety of using platforms when there's[br]already this component of trust. Facebook
0:37:13.620,0:37:18.830
has done a lot for account security for[br]example over the last couple of years and
0:37:18.830,0:37:25.470
has built trust in this community. And as[br]well as having you know all of your
0:37:25.470,0:37:30.470
community on a tool when they're all there[br]together there's like less of a, less
0:37:30.470,0:37:36.930
critical thought about whether they're[br]it's safe to be there. And there is this
0:37:36.930,0:37:41.730
component of resignation when we've sort[br]of pushed people to think really
0:37:41.730,0:37:46.900
explicitly about the risk with immigration[br]enforcement, being in sharing information
0:37:46.900,0:37:53.840
on social media using technology there was[br]the sense that if they wanted to - they
0:37:53.840,0:37:57.130
could have the information, I mean, they[br]already have it in a lot of ways when
0:37:57.130,0:38:04.160
they're filing taxes or just you know it's[br]accessible to authorities is the general
0:38:04.160,0:38:08.970
sense of regardless of what they do[br]online. So this kind of in combination
0:38:08.970,0:38:13.850
with the uncertain risk it makes it really[br]hard to make concrete steps towards
0:38:13.850,0:38:25.060
changes that might be helpful. So finally,[br]I just wanted to share a couple of things
0:38:25.060,0:38:34.390
that I learned especially as a digital[br]security trainer and doing this study.
0:38:34.390,0:38:41.970
Most importantly everyone that we spoke to[br]was really excited to learn. That's just
0:38:41.970,0:38:47.100
general like tech literacy but also[br]security and privacy. People really care
0:38:47.100,0:38:52.310
and they're excited. And everyone[br]expressed gratitude that we were talking
0:38:52.310,0:39:00.340
to them about this topic. They care a lot.[br]But so what was difficult for me having a
0:39:00.340,0:39:06.570
background in trainings was still being[br]surprised by things that in these
0:39:06.570,0:39:12.670
conversations that thinking I knew what[br]they wanted or what they needed and that
0:39:12.670,0:39:17.400
not being the case. So one thing I would[br]say is you know don't assume that you know
0:39:17.400,0:39:22.770
what's best for them or even what they[br]want or need. Go and talk to people
0:39:22.770,0:39:27.020
they're really you'll learn a lot from[br]talking to people about what they think
0:39:27.020,0:39:32.870
their risk is versus what they're doing.[br]For example something that I was surprised
0:39:32.870,0:39:37.180
to learn is that they're really not using[br]online resources when they have concerns
0:39:37.180,0:39:42.240
about online privacy. They're talking to[br]their kids and they're talking to their
0:39:42.240,0:39:47.570
neighbors and their friends. So for this[br]community in particular it would be really
0:39:47.570,0:39:53.170
much more effective to go into an in-[br]person training. A training in Spanish in
0:39:53.170,0:39:59.070
this case. In the language that they're[br]naturally speaking and have like in-person
0:39:59.070,0:40:05.180
resources that will get you much further[br]than you know compiling lists of ideas or
0:40:05.180,0:40:14.660
tools or strategies, that'll probably[br]never be accessed. And as a vehicle to do
0:40:14.660,0:40:18.090
this, when we had a really positive[br]experience working with support
0:40:18.090,0:40:23.720
organizations, on the front end that[br]allowed us to build trust with the
0:40:23.720,0:40:28.050
community, so by working with people who[br]they already trusted and who already knew
0:40:28.050,0:40:33.140
them well I really think we were able to[br]talk to people much more openly and much...
0:40:33.140,0:40:37.200
with much more trust than they would have[br]otherwise. Whether they would have spoken
0:40:37.200,0:40:43.370
to us at all is a question. They also were[br]a great resource for us as we were
0:40:43.370,0:40:50.290
developing interview materials and also[br]like training materials afterwards when we
0:40:50.290,0:41:00.020
went back to communities and conducted[br]digital trainings. They helped us develop,
0:41:00.020,0:41:05.700
you know, culturally sensitive language[br]and we were able to just ask, you know, is
0:41:05.700,0:41:10.370
this location is this style of[br]presentation, is this length, is this time
0:41:10.370,0:41:14.290
what should we do you know they were a[br]resource to us to make sure that the
0:41:14.290,0:41:16.900
things that we were developing were most[br]accessible to the people that we're
0:41:16.900,0:41:25.260
talking to. And, they also themselves from[br]what I've seen have a lot of questions
0:41:25.260,0:41:30.180
about the way that they're using[br]technology. That's a great place to go and
0:41:30.180,0:41:35.950
talk to people about, you know,[br]organizational practices. And you might
0:41:35.950,0:41:38.700
find that it's a lot easier to get people[br]to change their practices if they're in
0:41:38.700,0:41:42.580
sort of an organizational setting where[br]there's peer pressure or maybe some
0:41:42.580,0:41:48.950
hierarchy of people who are really[br]encouraging them to use more secure tools
0:41:48.950,0:41:53.670
or to think carefully about data[br]they're collecting about people that they
0:41:53.670,0:41:59.490
contact. So working with these[br]organizations also might be an opportunity
0:41:59.490,0:42:05.440
to do trainings with activists and with[br]lawyers and with other people who are
0:42:05.440,0:42:18.410
working alongside this community. Finally,[br]which is always a difficult thing to hear
0:42:18.410,0:42:24.230
as a trainer, the people we spoke to[br]probably aren't going to be adopting new
0:42:24.230,0:42:32.130
tools for one it might not be safe, it's[br]hard to make that calculus right, but a
0:42:32.130,0:42:38.390
tool that's specifically designed for a[br]community at risk or in order to do a
0:42:38.390,0:42:42.570
particular function that would be of[br]interest to, for example, the undocumented
0:42:42.570,0:42:45.800
community or some other vulnerable[br]community might increase visibility
0:42:45.800,0:42:50.230
depending on the threat model. If they're[br]found with a particular app or if the app
0:42:50.230,0:42:57.670
is like exposing number of users or[br]location of users, for example. And it's
0:42:57.670,0:43:00.790
not to say that we should stop developing[br]new tools we should always think about
0:43:00.790,0:43:06.840
ways to make better and safer and more[br]private resources. But it's worth thinking
0:43:06.840,0:43:10.780
especially if you're going to be working[br]with communities or building resources for
0:43:10.780,0:43:15.560
communities that we should think also[br]about how to make sure that they're using
0:43:15.560,0:43:21.040
the tools they are already used more[br]effectively and more safely. That might
0:43:21.040,0:43:24.840
mean sitting down with someone for a while[br]and going to their privacy settings on
0:43:24.840,0:43:30.200
Facebook or, you know, making sure that[br]their settings on Whatsapp, make don't
0:43:30.200,0:43:38.450
back up data to the cloud or expose phone[br]numbers to people they don't know. But
0:43:38.450,0:43:48.750
there's a lot to do in both of these[br]directions. And especially if you're going
0:43:48.750,0:43:53.960
to be moving into working with these[br]communities, this is something to keep in
0:43:53.960,0:44:04.920
mind, that I thought was especially[br]poignant. For that I can take questions.
0:44:04.920,0:44:16.890
applause[br]Herald angel (H): So we have four
0:44:16.890,0:44:21.930
microphones in this room. I see one is[br]already occupied with somebody. May I
0:44:21.930,0:44:25.290
remind you that a question is typically[br]one to two sentence and ends with a
0:44:25.290,0:44:30.640
question mark. And with that I[br]will take microphone 4.
0:44:30.640,0:44:36.800
Mic4: Hi, thanks! You mentioned that these[br]communities are reluctant to adopt new
0:44:36.800,0:44:41.500
tools. Were there any exceptions to that[br]or were there any like attributes of new
0:44:41.500,0:44:45.830
tools that you think they would be more[br]likely to adopt?
0:44:45.830,0:44:52.560
Allison: Yeah that's a good question! I[br]I've been thinking about this. I would say
0:44:52.560,0:44:57.200
that this is absolutely true what I said[br]about reluctance to adopt new tools when
0:44:57.200,0:45:00.660
it's when we're talking about social[br]media. So it's difficult to like move
0:45:00.660,0:45:05.330
people to Signal for example from Whatsapp[br]or Facebook Messenger because the people
0:45:05.330,0:45:08.890
they talk to are already on these tools[br]and it's not just moving one person but
0:45:08.890,0:45:16.680
like a community. If we start to think[br]about tools that might be special-purpose
0:45:16.680,0:45:21.180
we didn't talk to anyone who mentioned[br]this app but I know in the past there have
0:45:21.180,0:45:26.410
been discussions about ways being used[br]it's like a crowd-sourced map system being
0:45:26.410,0:45:33.680
used to like track law enforcement. Like I[br]said we didn't talk to anyone who used
0:45:33.680,0:45:40.020
that app but possibly if there's like a[br]specific utility in it there could be some
0:45:40.020,0:45:46.630
critical mass of people who spread the[br]word in a smaller community. Yeah it's
0:45:46.630,0:45:50.440
something to think about. I don't think[br]it's impossible but I would say it would
0:45:50.440,0:45:55.880
be challenging.[br]H: I assume that the baby doesn't want to
0:45:55.880,0:46:00.852
speak on microphone 1 so I'm gonna go to a[br]microphone 3.
0:46:00.852,0:46:03.410
Mic3: I have two questions is that okay?[br]Allison: Yeah.
0:46:03.410,0:46:07.780
Mic3: Thank you. The first one is kind of[br]a nitty-gritty academic question and that
0:46:07.780,0:46:12.100
is: can you tell us anything about your[br]IRB approval process, what you're doing to
0:46:12.100,0:46:16.360
protect subjects data? Because this is[br]very sensitive and I'm curious how you've
0:46:16.360,0:46:19.360
approached that.[br]Allison: Yeah absolutely. So we didn't
0:46:19.360,0:46:28.310
have IRB approval before we spoke to[br]anyone. We actually got an exemption for
0:46:28.310,0:46:32.940
collecting data about participants. So we[br]compensated for each interview that we
0:46:32.940,0:46:42.170
did, we gave participants $20. We were not[br]required to collect any proof of payment
0:46:42.170,0:46:48.600
we recorded the interviews and encrypted[br]them locally. They were translated by
0:46:48.600,0:46:55.330
people in our research group and then[br]transcribed with all identifying location
0:46:55.330,0:47:01.950
and name data redacted. And, that those[br]were all stored encrypted on our personal
0:47:01.950,0:47:07.660
drives and then in a University Drive. All[br]the data has been deleted now all of the
0:47:07.660,0:47:12.538
original data as well.[br]Mic3: Awesome! Thanks. The other one is a
0:47:12.538,0:47:17.050
big picture scatterbrain question: which[br]is about how this is a technological
0:47:17.050,0:47:23.830
solution to a political problem. Do you[br]feel that directing or helping immigrants
0:47:23.830,0:47:29.400
understand how to protect themselves[br]technologically, is the answer or
0:47:29.400,0:47:34.090
necessarily part of the answer or do you[br]feel like maybe eventually our community
0:47:34.090,0:47:37.520
needs to be helping people exit places[br]like the U.S. that are increasingly
0:47:37.520,0:47:43.384
hostile to immigrants?[br]Allison: That's a good question. I don't
0:47:43.384,0:47:49.630
think that helping people be more safe[br]online is really a solution. I mean the
0:47:49.630,0:47:55.061
solutions gonna be in policy and in law. I[br]think this is a utility really in the
0:47:55.061,0:47:58.660
short term is like making sure people feel[br]safe and like have more control over
0:47:58.660,0:48:03.440
disclosure to the extent that they can.[br]But I don't think that's going to,... I
0:48:03.440,0:48:09.070
don't think that's a winning, you know,[br]single pronged battle. As for leaving the
0:48:09.070,0:48:14.080
United States that's kind of a funny[br]question considering how much people have
0:48:14.080,0:48:17.850
sacrificed to come to the U.S. and[br]especially having integrated into
0:48:17.850,0:48:23.000
communities already. A lot of the people I[br]spoke about today were long-term residents
0:48:23.000,0:48:26.190
I mean everyone was a long-term resident.[br]So they've sort of built their lives in
0:48:26.190,0:48:29.600
the U.S. But there has been a significant[br]decrease in the number of people
0:48:29.600,0:48:35.260
immigrating to the U.S. without[br]authorization that's thanks to Obama era
0:48:35.260,0:48:41.110
policies of like, you know, return[br]immediately at the border so whether
0:48:41.110,0:48:44.560
people are now moving to other countries[br]is a good question and whether we should
0:48:44.560,0:48:48.480
encourage that is... I don't know,[br]interesting.
0:48:48.480,0:48:54.543
Mic3: Thank you[br]H: Microphone 2.
0:48:54.543,0:49:02.100
Mic2: Hi, so I have a questions: Are there[br]any initiatives to help the people in a
0:49:02.100,0:49:11.910
way that so,.. The fact that they don't...[br]they feel that they are less risk online
0:49:11.910,0:49:16.650
and they don't perceive the risk as much[br]and do you feel that helping them
0:49:16.650,0:49:21.270
understanding those risk and maybe trying[br]to be more secure online will actually
0:49:21.270,0:49:27.160
help them or is there a resignation[br]towards the government accurate?
0:49:27.160,0:49:41.970
Allison: If you're thinking about specific[br]people I think,... Maybe when individual's
0:49:41.970,0:49:47.470
information is going to be accessible in[br]the long run if immigration enforcement
0:49:47.470,0:49:51.940
really chooses to maybe that sense of[br]resignation to some extent is accurate but
0:49:51.940,0:49:58.220
lots of people aren't necessarily on the[br]radar. And I think what's most beneficial
0:49:58.220,0:50:03.590
about helping people understand how to use[br]technology more effectively and like
0:50:03.590,0:50:08.960
that's really just increasing confidence.[br]It's this uncertainty and like choosing to
0:50:08.960,0:50:11.560
abstain from participating in[br]conversations because they just don't
0:50:11.560,0:50:15.211
trust that they can be secure, like[br]private enough. You know or that their
0:50:15.211,0:50:18.860
personal information, their home addresses[br]that they they're still at risk of this
0:50:18.860,0:50:23.660
harassment like that's... That lack of[br]confidence and privacy is really what I
0:50:23.660,0:50:40.210
think can be helped and... Sorry I had[br]another point. Yeah, but if it's worthwhile
0:50:40.210,0:50:44.230
you know thinking about how you can[br]contribute to helping. I mean even
0:50:44.230,0:50:50.980
outside of like privacy work, a lot of[br]people really just are eager to learn more
0:50:50.980,0:50:58.880
about how to use technology like to help[br]their lives. Right, so the other thing I
0:50:58.880,0:51:04.150
was going to say was, we also put[br]significant thought into whether or not,
0:51:04.150,0:51:06.880
you know, how to have these conversations[br]with people and like how to ask questions
0:51:06.880,0:51:12.960
about, you know, the risks online without[br]really freaking them out. Because we
0:51:12.960,0:51:15.930
didn't really have solutions. It's not[br]like at the end of an interview we could
0:51:15.930,0:51:20.560
say like well we have a solution for you[br]just install this app and you'll be safe.
0:51:20.560,0:51:25.390
So, it's sort of this balance between[br]making sure that people still, you know,
0:51:25.390,0:51:30.600
use tools in the way that's so helpful for[br]their lives. Right like we don't want them
0:51:30.600,0:51:33.920
to stop using Facebook if it means that[br]they stop talking to their parents back in
0:51:33.920,0:51:37.640
Mexico. We don't want them to stop using[br]email if it means that they can't talk to
0:51:37.640,0:51:42.730
their kid's teachers anymore. So it's this[br]balance between like being aware of the
0:51:42.730,0:51:45.900
risk and being confident that you're doing[br]as much as you can while not choosing to
0:51:45.900,0:51:50.060
abstain.[br]H: So I'm hiding here in the corner
0:51:50.060,0:51:53.630
because I'm trying to see whether[br]somebody's at number four? There's
0:51:53.630,0:51:58.890
somebody there yes. So Mic4 please.[br]Mic4: Thanks. Hi, so I was wondering since
0:51:58.890,0:52:04.810
Facebook is the most popular tool that[br]they use and they probably won't change
0:52:04.810,0:52:10.760
it, did you find anything that the people[br]at Facebook could do to help undocumented
0:52:10.760,0:52:15.020
immigrants more?[br]Allison: Yeah, I think the things that
0:52:15.020,0:52:18.570
Facebook can think about are really[br]generalizable to a lot of vulnerable
0:52:18.570,0:52:25.131
communities. People, there were a few[br]things in particular that some people are
0:52:25.131,0:52:31.180
really uncomfortable with, for example,[br]Whatsapp if you're added to like a group
0:52:31.180,0:52:35.620
of people your phone number is exposed to[br]everyone else in the group, without your
0:52:35.620,0:52:39.730
consent and that might be the case with[br]like group SMS and things. But like, the
0:52:39.730,0:52:44.250
fact that Whatsup even uses a phone number[br]is kind of something that we should
0:52:44.250,0:52:50.650
migrate out of, right. Facebook collecting[br]phone numbers and collecting, you know,
0:52:50.650,0:52:59.330
location data regardless of how easy it is[br]to opt in and out. And so, this is
0:52:59.330,0:53:05.680
primarily an academic work that's going to[br]appear at the HCI, a human-computer
0:53:05.680,0:53:11.140
interaction conference, and we talk a lot[br]in the paper about what these bigger
0:53:11.140,0:53:18.990
services can do. And really like we as a[br]community can advocate for Facebook
0:53:18.990,0:53:23.240
resisting cooperating with law enforcement[br]right. I mean it shouldn't really matter
0:53:23.240,0:53:28.380
to Facebook where you live or or how you[br]got there. They're a social media platform
0:53:28.380,0:53:33.750
they shouldn't be, you know, helping[br]immigration move people around physical
0:53:33.750,0:53:42.060
borders. They should be totally you know[br]border agnostic. So advocating for that
0:53:42.060,0:53:49.790
kind of attitude shift would be helpful[br]H: Microphone 2
0:53:49.790,0:53:54.290
Mic2: So thank you for the very[br]interesting talk. And I have a question
0:53:54.290,0:54:00.410
that sort of picks up on the previous one.[br]And because it's, you talk about it
0:54:00.410,0:54:06.230
Facebook has become such an important sort[br]of a political actor in this arena. I'm
0:54:06.230,0:54:10.440
wondering if you've been following up on[br]that as a survey research problem like
0:54:10.440,0:54:15.220
what's, what is there, what is it that[br]they are doing and is this something
0:54:15.220,0:54:23.190
that's happening unwittingly or is there[br]something about the general strategy of
0:54:23.190,0:54:29.380
Facebook that surf helps create this kind[br]of trust. And I'm also wondering, going,
0:54:29.380,0:54:35.870
taking that question further, sorry it's[br]more than a sentence that,
0:54:35.870,0:54:40.220
if you've been thinking about is if you[br]see anything sort of suddenly eroding that
0:54:40.220,0:54:45.030
trust in the future, and I'm specifically[br]thinking about this now, this question
0:54:45.030,0:54:52.880
about how it was possible for all this[br]Russian money to go into Facebook
0:54:52.880,0:54:59.910
advertisements and that served, that's[br]kind of point in the direction of pressure
0:54:59.910,0:55:08.350
for Facebook to be less serve general in[br]their trust and picking up on certain, on
0:55:08.350,0:55:15.650
specific political issues which could also[br]be immigration and disclosing some
0:55:15.650,0:55:21.340
information that they already have?[br]A: Your question about whether there could
0:55:21.340,0:55:26.640
be a shift in trust in the future if[br]something could trigger that. The example
0:55:26.640,0:55:31.030
in Detroit right where law enforcement was[br]able to get a phone number from Facebook
0:55:31.030,0:55:36.530
with a warrant and then track the person[br]with this phone number. If there are more
0:55:36.530,0:55:41.780
and more cases of social media data being[br]used in immigration cases and there's
0:55:41.780,0:55:48.370
evidence to think that that might happen.[br]It's possible that narrative might
0:55:48.370,0:55:52.430
overtake this sense that people have right[br]now that Facebook's looking out for them
0:55:52.430,0:56:00.750
by keeping their account, you know,[br]there's that letting them control it. In
0:56:00.750,0:56:08.070
terms of Facebook picking up immigration[br]as a sort of an activist or a political
0:56:08.070,0:56:15.200
topic that they're interested in, I would[br]now hold my breath on that one, but we'll
0:56:15.200,0:56:19.350
see. Yeah.[br]H: So we have time for exactly one more
0:56:19.350,0:56:26.160
question and that is on Mic 1.[br]Mic1: Hi, did you collect any information
0:56:26.160,0:56:32.260
or study anything about how these people[br]were using financial services and such
0:56:32.260,0:56:36.720
things like online payments? Did they have[br]bank accounts, were they concerned about
0:56:36.720,0:56:44.920
their financial privacy?[br]A: Yeah, actually people, the concerns
0:56:44.920,0:56:49.050
they have with privacy and in terms of the[br]way that they were using like online
0:56:49.050,0:56:53.540
banking because people were I mean using[br]credit cards and online banking and paying
0:56:53.540,0:56:59.050
rent, you know, or utilities online. They[br]didn't talk about privacy much in that
0:56:59.050,0:57:03.110
context except that they have this concern[br]about their financial information being
0:57:03.110,0:57:07.700
stolen by hackers. Right, like the concern[br]is for other people rather than the
0:57:07.700,0:57:15.930
entities that are providing these[br]services. And I think a lot of the concern
0:57:15.930,0:57:19.370
there is coming from the fact that they[br]have a lot to lose and very few legal
0:57:19.370,0:57:27.350
protections should something bad happened[br]to them. But, yeah, so just generally like
0:57:27.350,0:57:32.690
people were using online banking and had[br]bank accounts and were using these online
0:57:32.690,0:57:36.280
financials services. Some people were[br]opting out but it wasn't due to privacy
0:57:36.280,0:57:39.710
concerns it was because they were worried[br]about using their credit card on the
0:57:39.710,0:57:45.240
Internet.[br]H: So with that I'd like you to help me to
0:57:45.240,0:57:47.844
thank our speaker Allison for this[br]wonderful talk.
0:57:47.844,0:57:53.545
Applause
0:57:53.545,0:58:03.257
34C3 postroll music
0:58:03.257,0:58:15.000
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