WEBVTT

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Hello.

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OK, this is a talk
about how to spot a psychopath.

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The statistics, by the way -

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which Robert Hare, 
who invented the psychopath checklist,

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came up with this -

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says 1 in 100 people is a psychopath.

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There's 100 people in the room, 
so one of you ...

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(Laughter)

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... is a psychopath.

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If psychopaths enjoy
going to talks about psychopaths,

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there could be more than
one of you in the audience.

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(Laughter)

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And I think psychopaths do enjoy
going to talks about psychopaths

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because of item 2:
grandiose sense of self-worth.

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So, 1 in 100 regular people
is a psychopath, Hare says,

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but 4 in 100 CEOs are psychopaths.

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So you're four times more likely
to be ruled by a psychopath

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than you would have one
as your subordinate.

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OK, so I'm now professionally trained,

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and, I've got to say, an extremely
adept psychopath spotter.

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I'll tell you the story of how
I became a psychopath spotter,

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and what I did with my powers.

NOTE Paragraph

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It started at a friend's house,

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and she had on her shelf
a book called the "DSM."

NOTE Paragraph

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Do people know the DSM?

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It's a manual of mental disorders.

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In the 50s, it was very slim,
like a little pamphlet,

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but now it's an enormous book.

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They've come up with
a huge number of mental disorders.

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There are 886 pages, 374 mental disorders.

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I was leafing through the book
wondering if I had any mental disorders,

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and it turns out I've got 12.

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I've got generalized anxiety disorder, 
which is a given.

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I've got nightmare disorder,

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which is categorized if you have
recurrent dreams of being pursued

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or declared a failure.


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All my dreams involve
somebody chasing me down the street

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going, "You're a failure!"

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(Laughter)

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I've got malingering,
and I think it's actually quite rare

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to have both malingering
and generalized anxiety disorder

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because malingering tends
to make you feel extremely anxious.

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And I have parent-child
relational problems,

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which I blame my mother for.

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(Laughter)

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And I have caffeine-induced disorder, 
which I've got right now.

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(Laughter)

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So I was leafing
through this book, wondering,

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"My goodness! Am I crazier
than I thought I was?"

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Or maybe it's not a good idea 
to self-diagnose

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if you're not a trained professional.

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Or maybe the psychiatry industry 


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has a strange fetish to diagnose
normal behavior as a mental disorder.

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I have no idea which was true.

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I was quite excited to have
so many mental disorders.

NOTE Paragraph

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It kind of made me feel

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like it's good to know
there's something wrong with you.

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I wondered whether my anxiety
was a good thing.

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Maybe it's a thing
that drives me forward to achieve.

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Maybe it makes me do interesting things.
I was wondering what is all this.

NOTE Paragraph

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I thought it'd be interesting 
to meet a critic of psychiatry

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to get their view on it, 


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which was how I did a pubby lunch
with the Scientologists,

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who have a crack team
of psychiatry busters

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called the CCHR.

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So I said to them, "Can you prove to me
that my thesis is right

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and that psychiatry is pseudoscience?"

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They said, "Yes, we can, 
we can prove it to you.

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We can introduce you to Tony."

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So I said, "Who's Tony?" 
And they said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."

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Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital
which used to be known

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as "Broadmoor Asylum
for the Criminally Insane."

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So I said, "What did Tony do?"

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And the Scientologists said, 
"Hardly anything."

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"He's completely sane,
he beat somebody up or something.

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He's totally sane. He faked madness
to try to get out of a prison sentence.

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He faked it too well,
and now he's stuck at Broadmoor.

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The more he tries
to convince people he's sane,

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the more they take it
as evidence that he's crazy.

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Do you want us to get you 
into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"

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So I said, "Yes, please."

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So I went to Broadmoor.

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The Scientologists got me in.

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It's not easy.

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We were sitting in the Wellness Center.

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(Laughter)

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And Brian the Scientologist said,

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"By the way, Tony is the only person
in the entire DSPD unit

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to have permission to meet people 
in the Wellness Center.

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So I said, "What does DSPD stand for?"

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He said, "Dangerous and Severe 
Personality Disorder."

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So I said, "Is Tony
in the part of Broadmoor

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that houses the most dangerous people?"

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And Brian said, "Yeah, isn't that crazy?"

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So then the patients started drifting in,
and most were overweight,

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and they were wearing sweatpants,
and they looked quite docile.

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And then Brian said, "There's Tony."

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Tony came in, and he wasn't overweight,
he was in extremely good shape.

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He wasn't wearing sweatpants,
he was wearing a pinstripe suit,

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and he was walking towards me 
with his arm outstretched,

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like someone out of "The Apprentice."

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Somebody wants to convince me
that he was very sane.

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So he sat down.

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I said, "Was it true 
that you faked your way in here?"

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He said, "Yeah, I beat 
someone up in Reading.

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I was on remand in my cell, 
and my cellmate said,

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"You're looking at five years.
What you need to do - fake madness.

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Tell them you're mad, 
you'll go to some cushy hospital,

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nurses will bring you pizzas,
you'll have a PlayStation."

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I said, "How did you fake madness?"

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He said, "I asked to see 
the prison psychiatrist.

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I'd just seen this film called "Crash"
by David Cronenberg,

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in which people get sexual pleasure 
from enacting car crashes.

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So, I told the psychiatrist,

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"I get sexual pleasure 
from enacting car crashes."

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And I said, "Why?"

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"Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist
I like to watch women as they die

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because it would 
make me feel more normal."

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So I said, "Where did you get that from?"

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He said, "From a biography of Ted Bundy
that they had in the prison library."

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So he evidently faked
madness much too well,

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and they sent him to Broadmoor.

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He took one look at the place and said,

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"There's has been a terrible mistake.

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I'm not mad."

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I said, "How long have you been here for?"

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"If I'd just done my prison sentence,
I'd have got 5 years.

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I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."

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So, for the last 12 years,

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he's tried to convince them
that he's sane.

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I said, "How do you do that?"

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He said, "Well, it's not easy.
I subscribe to New Scientist.

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I like to try and talk to them
about normal things, like football.

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And there's an article
in New Scientist that recently said

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the US Army was training bumblebees
to sniff out explosives.

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So I said to the nurse,

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"Did you know that the US Army's training
bumblebees to sniff out explosives?"

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He said later when he saw
his case notes, they'd written,

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"Believes bees can sniff out explosives."

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He said, "The more you try to act sane, 
the more crazy you seem."

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So, Tony seemed completely sane to me, 
but I'm not a professional.

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I left, and I wondered what to do.

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So I decided to write
to his clinician, Anthony Maden.

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I said, "What's the story?"
And his clinician emailed back and said,

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"Yeah, we accept
that Tony's story is true.

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We accept that he faked madness 
to get out of prison sentence

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because his delusions were very cliched.

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However, we've assessed him,

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and we've decided that what he is
is a psychopath!

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And in fact, faking madness

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is exactly the kind of cunning
and manipulative act of a psychopath."

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So, faking your brain going wrong

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is evidence that your brain
has gone wrong.

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He said, "It's on the checklist - 
cunning and manipulative."

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And I said, "What else?"

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He said, "Well, pinstriped suit -
classic psychopath

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That speaks to 'grandiose
sense of self-worth,'

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and also 'glibness/superficial charm.' "

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Tony had told me that he didn't like 
to hang around with his neighbors.

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He has the Stockwell strangler
on one side of him,

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so he stayed in his room a lot.

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They take that as a sign
that he's a psychopath

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because it speaks
to lack of empathy, grandiosity.

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Only in Broadmoor would not wanting
to hang out with serial killers

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be a sign of madness.

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So Anthony Maden said, "If you want
to know more about psychopaths,

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you can go to a psychopath
spotting course

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of Robert Hare, who invented
the psychopath checklist.

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So I did, I went on a three-day course,

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which is exactly the same as people 
who now are court experts,

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who speak at sentencing
hearings and so on,

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to determine whether somebody
is a high-scoring psychopath or not.

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I went on the three-day course,

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and I am now an extremely
adept psychopath spotter.

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Hare said to me, repeatedly,

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"Some guy in Broadmoor
who may or may not fake madness -

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that's not a big story.

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The big story is corporate psychopathy."

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He said, "Psychopathy
is so powerful, a brain anomaly."

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"It is a brain anomaly," he says.

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The amygdala doesn't send 
enough signals of fear and distress

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up and down the central nervous system.

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Psychopaths are the neurological
opposite of me.

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My amygdala sends way too many signals
of fear and distress

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up and down to my central nervous system.

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So, they don't feel anxious. No anxiety.

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He said, "It's such
a powerful brain anomaly

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that it molded society all wrong."

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Capitalism, at its most ruthless,

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is a physical manifestation
of psychopathy.

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That's how powerful the condition is.

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We are all victims of psychopathy.

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He said, "You'll really want to try
and get an interview

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with a corporate psychopath."

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So I looked around, and I chose ...

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Al Dunlap.

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Al Dunlap, in the 1990s,
was a very notorious asset stripper.

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He would come into a company, 
and he'd fire everybody,

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and the share prices would shoot up.

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He did it at Scott's,

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which is one of America's leading 
toilet paper manufacturers.

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He came in, closed down plants
all over the place.

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And he'd kind of fire people quite often
with a quip, with like a funny joke.

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So one of his stories was somebody 
came up to him and said,

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"I just bought myself a new car."

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And Al Dunlap said,
"You may have a new car,

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but I'll tell you
what you don't have - a job."

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He once went to a plant
in Mobile, Alabama,

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asked somebody how long
he'd been working there,

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and the guy said, "30 years."

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"Why do you want to work at a place
for 30 years? It makes no sense."

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Then he closed the plant down
and fired everybody.

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He said something
that wasn't psychopathic.

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Like, for instance, he said no -

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I didn't ask him about 
promiscuous sexual behavior

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because his wife was there,
and, frankly, I chickened out.

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But he said no to juvenile delinquency,
and he said no to early behavior problems.

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He said, "Because I got accepted
into West Point,

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and if I was a delinquent,
they wouldn't have me in."

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There's no rumors of affairs.
He's already been married twice.

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Admittedly, his first wife
cited in her divorce papers

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that he once threatened her with a knife


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and said, "I always wondered
what human flesh tasted like."

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But he has only been married twice.

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Also, by the way, he would often speak
about his wise and supportive parents

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but didn't turn up
to either of their funerals.

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But even so, there were quite a few items 
on the psychopath checklist

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that didn't apply to him at all.

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So I thought to myself,
well, I won't put that in the book.

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Then I realized, my goodness,

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being a psychopath spotter
has turned me somewhat psychopathic.

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I was displaying lack of empathy, 
I was being cunning and manipulative.

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It had turned me kind of power-mad.

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Then I got a call from Tony in Broadmoor.

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By the way, Tony has always denied
being a psychopath.

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He said the problem with the checklist -
one of the items is lack of remorse;

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another item is cunning, manipulative,
and pathological lying.

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So if you tell them, "I feel 
enormous remorse for what I did,"

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they say, "Typical of a psychopath 
to pretend to be remorseful

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when they're not."

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He said it's like voodoo -
they turn everything upside down.

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And the Hare checklist is used by experts 
in sentencing hearings,

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in parole and probation
hearings all the time.

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The rest of somebody's life
can be determined

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on how high they score
on the psychopath test.

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Anyway, Tony said
he had a tribunal planned,

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and would I like to come?

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So I went to it.

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And after 14 years in Broadmoor 


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for a crime that would have got him
five years if he hadn't faked madness,

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they let him go.

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And he's now out.

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He said to me,
"Jon, the way you got to remember -

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everybody is a bit psychopathic."

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He said, "You are, I am. 
Well, obviously I am."

00:12:53.134 --> 00:12:55.054
I said, "What are you going to do now?"


00:12:55.054 --> 00:12:58.483
He said, "Well, there's this woman
in Belgium I fancy, but she's married.

00:12:58.483 --> 00:13:02.249
[inaudible] get her divorced,
but that's OK because we're manipulative.

00:13:02.249 --> 00:13:04.515
So Tony is out and about.

00:13:04.515 --> 00:13:07.816
I spent a long time wondering
what I should think about Tony.

00:13:07.816 --> 00:13:08.959
I was worried, you know,

00:13:08.959 --> 00:13:12.223
because part of me
really wanted to support him,

00:13:12.223 --> 00:13:16.003
and another part of me thought,
well, you know, he might be a psychopath,

00:13:16.003 --> 00:13:18.897
and they have a 60% recidivism rate.

00:13:18.897 --> 00:13:19.899
What do I do?

00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:21.137
For a while, I've wondered

00:13:21.137 --> 00:13:23.486
if I should write about him
in a supportive way,

00:13:23.486 --> 00:13:26.366
but not quite good enough 
for it to actually work.

00:13:27.056 --> 00:13:31.745
So, like campaign for his release
but quite badly like a sort of crap Bono.

00:13:31.745 --> 00:13:33.045
(Laughter)

00:13:33.045 --> 00:13:35.175
But now I've decided, actually,

00:13:35.175 --> 00:13:38.965
is Tony a psychopath
or is Tony a miscarriage of justice?

00:13:39.335 --> 00:13:43.006
And the answer I came up with is "both."

00:13:43.006 --> 00:13:45.824
You can be a psychopath
and also be a miscarriage of justice

00:13:45.824 --> 00:13:49.589
because we should not
be determined by a checklist.

00:13:50.199 --> 00:13:54.260
And we should be defined by our sanity

00:13:54.260 --> 00:13:56.812
and not our madness, if we possibly can.

00:13:56.812 --> 00:13:58.654
And sometimes it's our madness,

00:13:58.654 --> 00:14:02.152
it's the least attractive aspects
of our personality,

00:14:02.152 --> 00:14:05.912
it's our anxieties, our compulsions,
and our obsessions,

00:14:05.912 --> 00:14:09.054
that lead us sometimes
to quite interesting things,

00:14:09.054 --> 00:14:11.884
that leads us to move forward and succeed.

00:14:11.884 --> 00:14:13.479
Thank you very much.

00:14:13.479 --> 00:14:16.259
(Applause)