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Hello.

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OK, this is a talk[br]about how to spot a psychopath.

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The statistics, by the way -

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which Robert Hare, [br]who invented the psychopath checklist,

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came up with this -

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says 1 in 100 people is a psychopath.

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There's 100 people in the room, [br]so one of you ...

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(Laughter)

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... is a psychopath.

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If psychopaths enjoy[br]going to talks about psychopaths,

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there could be more than[br]one of you in the audience.

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(Laughter)

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And I think psychopaths do enjoy[br]going to talks about psychopaths

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because of item 2:[br]grandiose sense of self-worth.

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So, 1 in 100 regular people[br]is a psychopath, Hare says,

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but 4 in 100 CEOs are psychopaths.

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So you're four times more likely[br]to be ruled by a psychopath

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than you would have one[br]as your subordinate.

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OK, so I'm now professionally trained,

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and, I've got to say, an extremely[br]adept psychopath spotter.

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I'll tell you the story of how[br]I became a psychopath spotter,

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and what I did with my powers.

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It started at a friend's house,

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and she had on her shelf[br]a book called the "DSM."

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Do people know the DSM?

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It's a manual of mental disorders.

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In the 50s, it was very slim,[br]like a little pamphlet,

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but now it's an enormous book.

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They've come up with[br]a huge number of mental disorders.

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There are 886 pages, 374 mental disorders.

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I was leafing through the book[br]wondering if I had any mental disorders,

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and it turns out I've got 12.

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I've got generalized anxiety disorder, [br]which is a given.

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I've got nightmare disorder,

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which is categorized if you have[br]recurrent dreams of being pursued

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or declared a failure.[br]

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All my dreams involve[br]somebody chasing me down the street

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going, "You're a failure!"

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(Laughter)

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I've got malingering,[br]and I think it's actually quite rare

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to have both malingering[br]and generalized anxiety disorder

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because malingering tends[br]to make you feel extremely anxious.

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And I have parent-child[br]relational problems,

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which I blame my mother for.

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(Laughter)

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And I have caffeine-induced disorder, [br]which I've got right now.

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(Laughter)

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So I was leafing[br]through this book, wondering,

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"My goodness! Am I crazier[br]than I thought I was?"

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Or maybe it's not a good idea [br]to self-diagnose

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if you're not a trained professional.

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Or maybe the psychiatry industry [br]

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has a strange fetish to diagnose[br]normal behavior as a mental disorder.

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I have no idea which was true.

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I was quite excited to have[br]so many mental disorders.

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It kind of made me feel

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like it's good to know[br]there's something wrong with you.

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I wondered whether my anxiety[br]was a good thing.

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Maybe it's a thing[br]that drives me forward to achieve.

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Maybe it makes me do interesting things.[br]I was wondering what is all this.

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I thought it'd be interesting [br]to meet a critic of psychiatry

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to get their view on it, [br]

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which was how I did a pubby lunch[br]with the Scientologists,

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who have a crack team[br]of psychiatry busters

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called the CCHR.

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So I said to them, "Can you prove to me[br]that my thesis is right

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and that psychiatry is pseudoscience?"

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They said, "Yes, we can, [br]we can prove it to you.

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We can introduce you to Tony."

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So I said, "Who's Tony?" [br]And they said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."

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Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital[br]which used to be known

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as "Broadmoor Asylum[br]for the Criminally Insane."

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So I said, "What did Tony do?"

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And the Scientologists said, [br]"Hardly anything."

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"He's completely sane,[br]he beat somebody up or something.

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He's totally sane. He faked madness[br]to try to get out of a prison sentence.

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He faked it too well,[br]and now he's stuck at Broadmoor.

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The more he tries[br]to convince people he's sane,

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the more they take it[br]as evidence that he's crazy.

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Do you want us to get you [br]into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"

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So I said, "Yes, please."

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So I went to Broadmoor.

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The Scientologists got me in.

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It's not easy.

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We were sitting in the Wellness Center.

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(Laughter)

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And Brian the Scientologist said,

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"By the way, Tony is the only person[br]in the entire DSPD unit

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to have permission to meet people [br]in the Wellness Center.

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So I said, "What does DSPD stand for?"

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He said, "Dangerous and Severe [br]Personality Disorder."

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So I said, "Is Tony[br]in the part of Broadmoor

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that houses the most dangerous people?"

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And Brian said, "Yeah, isn't that crazy?"

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So then the patients started drifting in,[br]and most were overweight,

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and they were wearing sweatpants,[br]and they looked quite docile.

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And then Brian said, "There's Tony."

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Tony came in, and he wasn't overweight,[br]he was in extremely good shape.

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He wasn't wearing sweatpants,[br]he was wearing a pinstripe suit,

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and he was walking towards me [br]with his arm outstretched,

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like someone out of "The Apprentice."

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Somebody wants to convince me[br]that he was very sane.

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So he sat down.

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I said, "Was it true [br]that you faked your way in here?"

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He said, "Yeah, I beat [br]someone up in Reading.

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I was on remand in my cell, [br]and my cellmate said,

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"You're looking at five years.[br]What you need to do - fake madness.

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Tell them you're mad, [br]you'll go to some cushy hospital,

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nurses will bring you pizzas,[br]you'll have a PlayStation."

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I said, "How did you fake madness?"

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He said, "I asked to see [br]the prison psychiatrist.

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I'd just seen this film called "Crash"[br]by David Cronenberg,

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in which people get sexual pleasure [br]from enacting car crashes.

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So, I told the psychiatrist,

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"I get sexual pleasure [br]from enacting car crashes."

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And I said, "Why?"

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"Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist[br]I like to watch women as they die

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because it would [br]make me feel more normal."

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So I said, "Where did you get that from?"

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He said, "From a biography of Ted Bundy[br]that they had in the prison library."

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So he evidently faked[br]madness much too well,

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and they sent him to Broadmoor.

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He took one look at the place and said,

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"There's has been a terrible mistake.

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I'm not mad."

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I said, "How long have you been here for?"

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"If I'd just done my prison sentence,[br]I'd have got 5 years.

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I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."

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So, for the last 12 years,

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he's tried to convince them[br]that he's sane.

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I said, "How do you do that?"

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He said, "Well, it's not easy.[br]I subscribe to New Scientist.

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I like to try and talk to them[br]about normal things, like football.

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And there's an article[br]in New Scientist that recently said

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the US Army was training bumblebees[br]to sniff out explosives.

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So I said to the nurse,

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"Did you know that the US Army's training[br]bumblebees to sniff out explosives?"

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He said later when he saw[br]his case notes, they'd written,

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"Believes bees can sniff out explosives."

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He said, "The more you try to act sane, [br]the more crazy you seem."

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So, Tony seemed completely sane to me, [br]but I'm not a professional.

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I left, and I wondered what to do.

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So I decided to write[br]to his clinician, Anthony Maden.

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I said, "What's the story?"[br]And his clinician emailed back and said,

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"Yeah, we accept[br]that Tony's story is true.

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We accept that he faked madness [br]to get out of prison sentence

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because his delusions were very cliched.

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However, we've assessed him,

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and we've decided that what he is[br]is a psychopath!

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And in fact, faking madness

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is exactly the kind of cunning[br]and manipulative act of a psychopath."

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So, faking your brain going wrong

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is evidence that your brain[br]has gone wrong.

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He said, "It's on the checklist - [br]cunning and manipulative."

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And I said, "What else?"

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He said, "Well, pinstriped suit -[br]classic psychopath

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That speaks to 'grandiose[br]sense of self-worth,'

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and also 'glibness/superficial charm.' "

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Tony had told me that he didn't like [br]to hang around with his neighbors.

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He has the Stockwell strangler[br]on one side of him,

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so he stayed in his room a lot.

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They take that as a sign[br]that he's a psychopath

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because it speaks[br]to lack of empathy, grandiosity.

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Only in Broadmoor would not wanting[br]to hang out with serial killers

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be a sign of madness.

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So Anthony Maden said, "If you want[br]to know more about psychopaths,

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you can go to a psychopath[br]spotting course

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of Robert Hare, who invented[br]the psychopath checklist.

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So I did, I went on a three-day course,

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which is exactly the same as people [br]who now are court experts,

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who speak at sentencing[br]hearings and so on,

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to determine whether somebody[br]is a high-scoring psychopath or not.

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I went on the three-day course,

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and I am now an extremely[br]adept psychopath spotter.

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Hare said to me, repeatedly,

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"Some guy in Broadmoor[br]who may or may not fake madness -

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that's not a big story.

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The big story is corporate psychopathy."

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He said, "Psychopathy[br]is so powerful, a brain anomaly."

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"It is a brain anomaly," he says.

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The amygdala doesn't send [br]enough signals of fear and distress

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up and down the central nervous system.

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Psychopaths are the neurological[br]opposite of me.

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My amygdala sends way too many signals[br]of fear and distress

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up and down to my central nervous system.

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So, they don't feel anxious. No anxiety.

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He said, "It's such[br]a powerful brain anomaly

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that it molded society all wrong."

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Capitalism, at its most ruthless,

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is a physical manifestation[br]of psychopathy.

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That's how powerful the condition is.

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We are all victims of psychopathy.

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He said, "You'll really want to try[br]and get an interview

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with a corporate psychopath."

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So I looked around, and I chose ...

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Al Dunlap.

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Al Dunlap, in the 1990s,[br]was a very notorious asset stripper.

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He would come into a company, [br]and he'd fire everybody,

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and the share prices would shoot up.

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He did it at Scott's,

0:10:02.733,0:10:06.877
which is one of America's leading [br]toilet paper manufacturers.

0:10:06.877,0:10:09.787
He came in, closed down plants[br]all over the place.

0:10:09.787,0:10:13.552
And he'd kind of fire people quite often[br]with a quip, with like a funny joke.

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So one of his stories was somebody [br]came up to him and said,

0:10:16.907,0:10:18.536
"I just bought myself a new car."

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And Al Dunlap said,[br]"You may have a new car,

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but I'll tell you[br]what you don't have - a job."

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He once went to a plant[br]in Mobile, Alabama,

0:10:26.995,0:10:29.235
asked somebody how long[br]he'd been working there,

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and the guy said, "30 years."

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"Why do you want to work at a place[br]for 30 years? It makes no sense."

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Then he closed the plant down[br]and fired everybody.

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He said something[br]that wasn't psychopathic.

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Like, for instance, he said no -

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I didn't ask him about [br]promiscuous sexual behavior

0:10:45.416,0:10:48.325
because his wife was there,[br]and, frankly, I chickened out.

0:10:48.325,0:10:54.728
But he said no to juvenile delinquency,[br]and he said no to early behavior problems.

0:10:54.728,0:10:57.131
He said, "Because I got accepted[br]into West Point,

0:10:57.131,0:10:59.991
and if I was a delinquent,[br]they wouldn't have me in."

0:10:59.991,0:11:03.836
There's no rumors of affairs.[br]He's already been married twice.

0:11:03.836,0:11:06.666
Admittedly, his first wife[br]cited in her divorce papers

0:11:06.666,0:11:08.769
that he once threatened her with a knife[br]

0:11:08.769,0:11:11.949
and said, "I always wondered[br]what human flesh tasted like."

0:11:11.949,0:11:14.709
But he has only been married twice.

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Also, by the way, he would often speak[br]about his wise and supportive parents

0:11:19.404,0:11:21.722
but didn't turn up[br]to either of their funerals.

0:11:21.722,0:11:25.010
But even so, there were quite a few items [br]on the psychopath checklist

0:11:25.010,0:11:26.896
that didn't apply to him at all.

0:11:26.896,0:11:30.461
So I thought to myself,[br]well, I won't put that in the book.

0:11:30.461,0:11:31.839
Then I realized, my goodness,

0:11:31.839,0:11:36.594
being a psychopath spotter[br]has turned me somewhat psychopathic.

0:11:37.344,0:11:42.574
I was displaying lack of empathy, [br]I was being cunning and manipulative.

0:11:43.250,0:11:45.560
It had turned me kind of power-mad.

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Then I got a call from Tony in Broadmoor.

0:11:51.335,0:11:54.243
By the way, Tony has always denied[br]being a psychopath.

0:11:54.243,0:11:59.001
He said the problem with the checklist -[br]one of the items is lack of remorse;

0:11:59.001,0:12:02.656
another item is cunning, manipulative,[br]and pathological lying.

0:12:02.656,0:12:06.094
So if you tell them, "I feel [br]enormous remorse for what I did,"

0:12:06.094,0:12:09.400
they say, "Typical of a psychopath [br]to pretend to be remorseful

0:12:09.400,0:12:10.708
when they're not."

0:12:10.708,0:12:13.790
He said it's like voodoo -[br]they turn everything upside down.

0:12:14.960,0:12:18.782
And the Hare checklist is used by experts [br]in sentencing hearings,

0:12:18.782,0:12:20.976
in parole and probation[br]hearings all the time.

0:12:20.976,0:12:23.734
The rest of somebody's life[br]can be determined

0:12:24.904,0:12:28.174
on how high they score[br]on the psychopath test.

0:12:28.174,0:12:30.871
Anyway, Tony said[br]he had a tribunal planned,

0:12:30.871,0:12:32.071
and would I like to come?

0:12:32.071,0:12:33.381
So I went to it.

0:12:33.991,0:12:36.516
And after 14 years in Broadmoor [br]

0:12:36.516,0:12:40.751
for a crime that would have got him[br]five years if he hadn't faked madness,

0:12:40.751,0:12:42.233
they let him go.

0:12:42.233,0:12:44.148
And he's now out.

0:12:44.728,0:12:48.383
He said to me,[br]"Jon, the way you got to remember -

0:12:48.383,0:12:50.033
everybody is a bit psychopathic."

0:12:50.033,0:12:53.134
He said, "You are, I am. [br]Well, obviously I am."

0:12:53.134,0:12:55.054
I said, "What are you going to do now?"[br]

0:12:55.054,0:12:58.483
He said, "Well, there's this woman[br]in Belgium I fancy, but she's married.

0:12:58.483,0:13:02.249
[inaudible] get her divorced,[br]but that's OK because we're manipulative.

0:13:02.249,0:13:04.515
So Tony is out and about.

0:13:04.515,0:13:07.816
I spent a long time wondering[br]what I should think about Tony.

0:13:07.816,0:13:08.959
I was worried, you know,

0:13:08.959,0:13:12.223
because part of me[br]really wanted to support him,

0:13:12.223,0:13:16.003
and another part of me thought,[br]well, you know, he might be a psychopath,

0:13:16.003,0:13:18.897
and they have a 60% recidivism rate.

0:13:18.897,0:13:19.899
What do I do?

0:13:19.899,0:13:21.137
For a while, I've wondered

0:13:21.137,0:13:23.486
if I should write about him[br]in a supportive way,

0:13:23.486,0:13:26.366
but not quite good enough [br]for it to actually work.

0:13:27.056,0:13:31.745
So, like campaign for his release[br]but quite badly like a sort of crap Bono.

0:13:31.745,0:13:33.045
(Laughter)

0:13:33.045,0:13:35.175
But now I've decided, actually,

0:13:35.175,0:13:38.965
is Tony a psychopath[br]or is Tony a miscarriage of justice?

0:13:39.335,0:13:43.006
And the answer I came up with is "both."

0:13:43.006,0:13:45.824
You can be a psychopath[br]and also be a miscarriage of justice

0:13:45.824,0:13:49.589
because we should not[br]be determined by a checklist.

0:13:50.199,0:13:54.260
And we should be defined by our sanity

0:13:54.260,0:13:56.812
and not our madness, if we possibly can.

0:13:56.812,0:13:58.654
And sometimes it's our madness,

0:13:58.654,0:14:02.152
it's the least attractive aspects[br]of our personality,

0:14:02.152,0:14:05.912
it's our anxieties, our compulsions,[br]and our obsessions,

0:14:05.912,0:14:09.054
that lead us sometimes[br]to quite interesting things,

0:14:09.054,0:14:11.884
that leads us to move forward and succeed.

0:14:11.884,0:14:13.479
Thank you very much.

0:14:13.479,0:14:16.259
(Applause)