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Interviewer: Your first time back on the TED Women stage.

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Sheryl Sandberg: First time back. Nice to see everyone. It's always so nice to look out

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and see so many women.

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It's so not my regular experience, as I know anyone else's

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I: So when we first started talking about maybe the the subject wouldn't be social media,

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which we assumed it would be, but that you had very much on your mind the missing leadership

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positions, particularly in the sector of technology and social media.

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But how did that evolve for you as a thought, and end up being the TED Talk that you gave?

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SS: So I was really scared to get on this stage and talk about women,

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because I grew up in the business world, as I think so many of us do,

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you never talk about being a woman, because someone might notice thaty you're a woman, right?

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They might notice. Or worse, if you say 'woman', people on the other end of the table think

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you're asking for special treatment, or complaining, or worse,

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about to sue them. And so I went through -- (laughter)

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Right? I went through my entire business career, and never spoke about being a woman,

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never spoke about it publicly. But I also noticed that it wasn't working.

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I came out of college over 20 years ago, and I thought that you know, look,

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all of my peerrs were men and women, all the people above me were all men, but that would change,

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because your generation had done such an amazing job fighting for equality,

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equality was now ours for the taking. And it wasn't.

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Because year after year, I was one of fewere and fewerm, and often,

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the only woman in the room. And I talked to a bunch of people about,

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should I give at TED Women about women, and they said, oh no, no no.

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It will end your business career. You cannot be a serious business business executive

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and speak about being a woman. You'll never be taken seriously again.

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But fortunatley , there were the proud, the few, who told me I should give this speech

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and I aske dmyself the question Mark Zuckerberg might --

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the founder of Facebook and my boss --

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asked some of us, which is what would I do if I wasn't afraid?

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And the answer to what would I do if I wasn't afraid is I would get on the TED stage,

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and talk about women and leadership, and I did, and survived.

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I would say, not only survived. I'm thinking of that moment, Sheryl,

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when you and I were standing backstage together, and you turned to me,

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and you told me a story.

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And I said, very last minute, you know, you really should share that story.

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Oh, yeah.

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What was that story?

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Well, it's an important part of the journey. I had -- TED Women --

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the original one was in DC -- so I live here -- so I had gotten on a plane the day before

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and my daughter was three, she was clinging to my leg, Mommy, don't go.

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And Pat's a friend, so not related to the speech I was planning on giveing,

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which was chock full of facts and figures, nothing personal,

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I told Pat the story. Well, I'm having a hard day, yesterday my daughter was clinging to my leg,

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and "don't go." And you looked at me and said,

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you have to tell that story. I said, on the TED stage? Are you kidding?

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I'm going to get on a stage and admit my daughter was clinging to my leg?

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And you said yes, because if you want to talk about getting more women into leadership roles,

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you have to be honest about how hard it is.

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And I did. And I think that's a really important part of the journey

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The same thing happened when I wrote my book. I wrote a first chapter,

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I thought it was fabulous. It was chock-full of data and figures,

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I had three pages on matrilineal tribes, and what the patterns are of their --

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their sociological patterns -- my husband read it.

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He was like, this is like eating your Wheaties.

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No one -- and I apologize to Wheaties if there's someone -- no one, no one will read this book.

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And I realized throught the proces s that I had to be more honest and more open,

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and I had to tell my stories. My stories of still not feeling as self-confident as I should,

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in many situations. My first and failed marriage. Crying at work.

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Felling I didn't belong there, and feeling guilty to this day.

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And part o fmy journey, starting on this stage, going to lean in, going to Foundation,

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is all about being more open and honest about those challenges,

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so that other women can be more open, honest,

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and all of us can work together towards equality.

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I: I think that one of the most striking parts about the book,

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and in my opinion, one of the reason's it's hit such a nerve and is resonating around the world,

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is that you are personal in the book, and that you do make it clear that,

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while you've observed some things that are very important for other women to know,

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that you've had the same challenges that many others of us have,

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as you faced the hurdles and the barriers and possibly the people who don't believe the same.

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So talk about that process: deciding that you go public with the private part,

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and then you would also put yourself in the position of something of an expert

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on how to resolve those challenges.

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SS: After I did the TED Talk, what happened was --

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you know, I never expected to write a book, I'm not an author, I'm not a writer,

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and it was viewed a lot, and it really started impacting people's lives.

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I got this great --- one of the first letters I got was from a woman

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who said that she was offered a really big promotion at work, and she turned it down,

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and she told her very best friend she turned it down, and she said "you really need to watch this TED Talk."

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And so she watched this TED Talk, and she went back the next day, she took the job,

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she went home, and she handed her husband the grocery list.

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And she said, I can do this.

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And what really mattered to me was it wasn't just women in the corporate world,

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even though I did hear from a lot of them, and it did impact a lot of them,

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it was also people of all different circumstancecs.

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There was a doctor I met who was an attending physician at Johns HOpkins,

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and he said that until he saw my TED Talk, it never really occurred to him

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that even though half of the students in his med school classes were women,

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they weren't speaking as much as the men as he did his rounds.

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So he started paying attention, and as he waited for raised hands, he realized the men's hands were up.

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So he started encouraging the women to raise their hands more. Right?

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And it still didn't work.

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So he told everyone, no more hand raising, I'm cold-calling.

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So he could call evenly on men and women. And what he proved to himself

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was that the women knew the answers just as well or better,

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and he was able to go back to them and tell them that. And then, you know,

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there was the woman, stay-at-home mom, lives in a really difficult neighborhood,

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not a great school, she said that TED Talk -- she's never had a corporate job,

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but that TED Talk inspired her to go to that school and fight for a better teacher for her child.

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And I guess what's part of finding my own voice

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and I realize that other women and men could find thier own voice through it,

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which is why I went from that talk to the book.

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I: And in the book, you not only found your voice, which is clear and strong in the book,

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but you also share what you've learned --

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the experiences of other people in the lessons.

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And that's what I'm thinking about in terms of putting yourself in a --

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you became a sort of expert in how you lean in.

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So what did that feel like, and become like in your life?


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To launch not just a book, not just a best-selling, best-viewed talk,

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but a movement, where people begin to literally describe their actions at work as

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"I'm leaning in."

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SS: I mean, I'm grateful, I'm honored, I'm happy, and it's the very beginning.

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So I don't know if I'm an expert or if anyone [???]. I certainly have done a lot of research

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I have read every study, I have pored over all the materials,

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and the lessons are very clear. Because here's what we know:

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what we know is that stereotypes are holding women back from leadership roles all over the world.

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It's so striking, Lean In's very global, I've been all over the world,

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talking about it, and -- cultures are so different.

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Even in our own country, to Japan, and to Korea, to China, to Asia, Europe,

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they' re so different, except for one thing: gender.

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All over the wolrd, no matter what our cultures are,

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we think men snould be strong, assertive, aggressive, ahve voice,

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we think women should speak when spoken to, help others.

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Now how -- you know, I've asked -- we have all over the world

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women are called "bossy." There is a word for "bossy"

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for little girls, in every language there's one.

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It's a word that's pretty much not used for little boys,

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because if a little boy leads, there's no negative word for it,

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it's expected. But if a little girl leads, she's bossy.

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Now I know there aren't a lot of men here, but bear with me.

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If you're a man, you'll have to represent your gender.

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Please raise your hand if you've been told you're too aggressive at work.

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There's always a few, it runs about 5%. Now get ready, gentlemen --

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If you're a woman, please raise your hand if you've ever been told you're too aggressive at work.

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(laughter) That is what audiences have said in every country in the world,

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and it's deeply supported by the data.

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Now, do we think women are more aggressive than men? Of course not.

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It's just that we judge them through a different lens,

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and a lot of the character traits that you must exhibit to perform at work, to get results, to lead,

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are ones that we think, in a man, he's the boss.

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And in a woman, she's bossy.

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And the good news about this is that we can change this by acknowledging it.

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One of the happiest moments I had in this whole journey

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is, after the book came out, I stood on a stage with John Chambers, the chairman of Cisco,

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He read the book. He stood on stage with me, invited me in front of his whole management team,

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men and women, and he said, I thought we were good at this. I thought that I was good at this.

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And then I read this book, and I realized that we -- my company --

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we have called all of our senior women too aggressive,

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and I'm standing on this stage, and I'm sorry.

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And I want you to know we're never going to do it again.

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I: Wow.

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Can leave Sinbad [???] to a lot of other people.

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SS: So John is doing that because he believes it's good for his company.

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So this kind of acknowledgement of these biases can change it.

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And so next time you all see someone call a little girl bossy,

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you'll walk right up to that person, big smile, and say

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that little girl's not bossy. That little girl has executive leadership skills.

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I: I know that's what you're telling your daughter.

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And you did focus in the book, and you said that your reason in writing it was to create a dialogue about this.

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I mean, let's just put it out there, face the fact that women are,

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in a time when we have more open doors, and more opportunities,

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are still not getting to the leadership positions.

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So in the months that have come since the book,

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in which Lean In focussed on that and said,

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here are some of the challenges that remain, and many of them we have to own within ourselves

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and look at ourselves. What has changed?

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Have you seen changes?

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SS: Well, there's certainly more dialogue, which is great.

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But what really matters to me, and I think all of us, is action.

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So everywhere I go, CEOs, they;'re mostly men, say to me,

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you're costing me so much money.

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Because all of the women want to be paid as much as the men.

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And to them I say, I'm not sorry at all.

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At all. I mean, the women should be paid as much as the men.

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Everywhere I go, women tell me they ask for raises.

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Everywhere I go, women say they're getting better relationships with their spouses,

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asking for more help at home, asking for the promotions they should be getting at work,

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and importantly, believing it themselves. Even little things.

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One of the governors of one of the states told me that he didn't realize that more women were, in fact,

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literally sitting on the side of the room, which they are,

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and now he made a rule that all the women on his staff need to sit at the table.

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The foundation I started along with the book Lean In

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helps women, or men, start circles -- small groups,

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can be 10, can be however much you want, which meet once a month

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I would have hope that by now, we'd have about 500 circles. That would've been great.

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You know, 500 times roughly 10.

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There are over 12,000 circles in 50 countries in the world.

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I: Wow.

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SS: And these are people who are meeting every single month.

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I met one of them, I was in Beijing.

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A group of women, they're all about 29 or 30, they started the first Lean In circle in Beijing,

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several of them grew up in very poor, rural China.

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These women are 29, they are told by their society that they are "left over,"

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because they are not yet married,

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and the process of coming together on a month at meeting

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is helping them define who they are for themselves.

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What they want in their careers. The kind of partners they want, if at all.

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I looked at them, we went around and introduced ourselves,

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and they all said their names and where they're from,

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and I said, I 'm Sheryl Sandberg, and this was my dream.

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And I kind of just started crying.

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I: Right.

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SS: Which, I admit, I do. I've talked about it before.

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But the fact that a woman so far away in the world, who grew up in a rural village,

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who's being told to marry someone she doesn't want to marry

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can now go meet once a month with a group of people and refuse that.

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And find life on her own terms.

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That's the kind of change we have to hope for.

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I: Have you been surprised by the global nature of the message?


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Because I think when the book first came out, many people thought,

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well, this is a really important handbook for young women on their way up.

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They need to look at this and anticipate the barriers, recognize them,

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put them out in the open, have the dialogue about it,

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but it's really for women who are that. Doing that. Pursuing the corporate world.

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And yet the book is being read, as you say, in rural and developing countries.

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SS: Yeah.

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I: What part of that has surprised you, and perhaps led to a new perspective on your part?

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SS: The book is about self-confidence, and about equality.

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And it turns out, everywhere in the world, women need more self-confidence,

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because the world tell us we're not equal to men.

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Everywhere in the world, we live in a world where the men get "and,"

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and the women get "or."

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I've never met a man who's been asked how he does it all.

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Again, I'm going to turn to the men in the audience:

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please raise your hand if you've been asked, how do you do it all?

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(laughter)

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Men only.

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Women, please raise your hand if you've been asked how you do it all?

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We assume men can do it all, slash -- have jobs and children.

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We assume women can't, and that's ridiculous,

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because the great majority of women everywhere in the world, including the United States,

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work full time and have children.

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And I think people don't fully understand how broad the message is.

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There is a circle that's been started for rescued sex workers in Miami.

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They're using Lean In to help people make the transition

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back to twhat would be a fair life, really rescuing them from their pimps

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and using it. There are dress-for-success groups in Texas which ar eusing the book.

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For women who have never been to college,

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and we know there are groups all the way to Ethiopia.

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And so these messages of equality -- of how women are told they can't have what men can have --

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how we assume that leadership is for men, how we assume that voice is for men,

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these affect all of us, and I think they are very universal.

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And it's part of what TED Women does.

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It unities all of us in a cause we have to believe in,

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which is more women, more voice, more equality.

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I: If you were invited now to make another TED Women talk,

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what would you say that, as a result of this experience, for you personally,

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and what you learned about women, and men,

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as you've made this journey?

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SS: I think I would sya -- I tried to say this strongly,

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but I think I can say it more strongly --

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I want to say that the status quo is not enough.

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That it's not good enough, that it's not changing quickly enough.

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Since I gave my TED Talk and publishe dmy book, another year of data came out from the U.S. Censue

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And you know what we found?

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No movement in the wage gap for women in the United States.

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77 cents to the dollar.

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If you are a black woman, 64 cents.

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If you are a Latina, we're at 54 cents.

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Did you know when the last time those numbers went up?

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2002.

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We are stagnating, wwe are stagnating in so many ways.

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And I think we are not really being honest about that.

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for so many reasons. It's so hard ot talk ablut gender.

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We shy away from the word feminist, a word I really think we need to embrace.

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We have to get rid of the word bossy and bring back --

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(applause)

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I think I would say in a louder voice, we need to get rid of the word bossy

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and bring back the word feminist, because we need it.

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(applause and cheers)

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I: And we all need to do a lot more leaning in.

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SS: A lot more leaning in.

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I: Thank you, Sheryl.

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Thanks for leaning in and saying yes.

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SS: Thank you.

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(applause)