0:00:01.153,0:00:03.072
Interviewer: Your first time back on the TED Women stage.

0:00:03.072,0:00:06.415
Sheryl Sandberg: First time back. Nice to see everyone. It's always so nice to look out

0:00:06.415,0:00:07.721
and see so many women.

0:00:07.721,0:00:08.521


0:00:08.521,0:00:11.895
It's so not my regular experience, as I know anyone else's

0:00:11.895,0:00:18.824
I: So when we first started talking about maybe the the subject wouldn't be social media,

0:00:18.824,0:00:25.388
which we assumed it would be, but that you had very much on your mind the missing leadership

0:00:25.388,0:00:30.464
positions, particularly in the sector of technology and social media.

0:00:30.464,0:00:36.531
But how did that evolve for you as a thought, and end up being the TED Talk that you gave?

0:00:36.531,0:00:39.980
SS: So I was really scared to get on this stage and talk about women,

0:00:39.980,0:00:42.939
because I grew up in the business world, as I think so many of us do,

0:00:42.939,0:00:49.579
you never talk about being a woman, because someone might notice thaty you're a woman, right?

0:00:49.579,0:00:54.200
They might notice. Or worse, if you say 'woman', people on the other end of the table think

0:00:54.200,0:00:57.506
you're asking for special treatment, or complaining, or worse,

0:00:57.506,0:01:00.367
about to sue them. And so I went through -- (laughter)

0:01:00.367,0:01:04.864
Right? I went through my entire business career, and never spoke about being a woman,

0:01:04.864,0:01:09.399
never spoke about it publicly. But I also noticed that it wasn't working.

0:01:09.399,0:01:13.793
I came out of college over 20 years ago, and I thought that you know, look,

0:01:13.793,0:01:16.934
all of my peerrs were men and women, all the people above me were all men, but that would change,

0:01:16.934,0:01:22.629
because your generation had done such an amazing job fighting for equality,

0:01:22.629,0:01:26.411
equality was now ours for the taking. And it wasn't.

0:01:26.411,0:01:29.728
Because year after year, I was one of fewere and fewerm, and often,

0:01:29.728,0:01:33.820
the only woman in the room. And I talked to a bunch of people about,

0:01:33.820,0:01:37.241
should I give at TED Women about women, and they said, oh no, no no.

0:01:37.241,0:01:42.234
It will end your business career. You cannot be a serious business business executive

0:01:42.234,0:01:45.426
and speak about being a woman. You'll never be taken seriously again.

0:01:45.426,0:01:49.686
But fortunatley , there were the proud, the few, who told me I should give this speech

0:01:49.686,0:01:53.511
and I aske dmyself the question Mark Zuckerberg might --

0:01:53.511,0:01:55.151
the founder of Facebook and my boss --

0:01:55.151,0:01:58.774
asked some of us, which is what would I do if I wasn't afraid?

0:01:58.774,0:02:02.920
And the answer to what would I do if I wasn't afraid is I would get on the TED stage,

0:02:02.920,0:02:09.932
and talk about women and leadership, and I did, and survived.

0:02:09.932,0:02:14.859
I would say, not only survived. I'm thinking of that moment, Sheryl,

0:02:14.859,0:02:19.005
when you and I were standing backstage together, and you turned to me,

0:02:19.005,0:02:20.822
and you told me a story.

0:02:20.822,0:02:25.179
And I said, very last minute, you know, you really should share that story.

0:02:25.179,0:02:26.193
Oh, yeah.

0:02:26.193,0:02:27.307
What was that story?

0:02:27.307,0:02:29.823
Well, it's an important part of the journey. I had -- TED Women --

0:02:29.823,0:02:33.540
the original one was in DC -- so I live here -- so I had gotten on a plane the day before

0:02:33.540,0:02:38.390
and my daughter was three, she was clinging to my leg, Mommy, don't go.

0:02:38.390,0:02:42.184
And Pat's a friend, so not related to the speech I was planning on giveing,

0:02:42.184,0:02:45.479
which was chock full of facts and figures, nothing personal,

0:02:45.479,0:02:51.017
I told Pat the story. Well, I'm having a hard day, yesterday my daughter was clinging to my leg,

0:02:51.017,0:02:53.215
and "don't go." And you looked at me and said,

0:02:53.215,0:02:57.388
you have to tell that story. I said, on the TED stage? Are you kidding?

0:02:57.388,0:03:00.245
I'm going to get on a stage and admit my daughter was clinging to my leg?

0:03:00.245,0:03:03.950
And you said yes, because if you want to talk about getting more women into leadership roles,

0:03:03.950,0:03:07.021
you have to be honest about how hard it is.

0:03:07.021,0:03:11.745
And I did. And I think that's a really important part of the journey

0:03:11.745,0:03:16.875
The same thing happened when I wrote my book. I wrote a first chapter,

0:03:16.875,0:03:21.442
I thought it was fabulous. It was chock-full of data and figures,

0:03:21.442,0:03:27.866
I had three pages on matrilineal tribes, and what the patterns are of their --

0:03:27.866,0:03:30.547
their sociological patterns -- my husband read it.

0:03:30.547,0:03:33.226
He was like, this is like eating your Wheaties.

0:03:33.226,0:03:40.714
No one -- and I apologize to Wheaties if there's someone -- no one, no one will read this book.

0:03:40.714,0:03:45.882
And I realized throught the proces s that I had to be more honest and more open,

0:03:45.882,0:03:50.600
and I had to tell my stories. My stories of still not feeling as self-confident as I should,

0:03:50.600,0:03:56.248
in many situations. My first and failed marriage. Crying at work.

0:03:56.248,0:04:00.473
Felling I didn't belong there, and feeling guilty to this day.

0:04:00.473,0:04:04.961
And part o fmy journey, starting on this stage, going to lean in, going to Foundation,

0:04:04.961,0:04:08.787
is all about being more open and honest about those challenges,

0:04:08.787,0:04:10.610
so that other women can be more open, honest,

0:04:10.610,0:04:14.242
and all of us can work together towards equality.

0:04:14.242,0:04:17.771
I: I think that one of the most striking parts about the book,

0:04:17.771,0:04:23.634
and in my opinion, one of the reason's it's hit such a nerve and is resonating around the world,

0:04:23.634,0:04:29.250
is that you are personal in the book, and that you do make it clear that,

0:04:29.250,0:04:33.455
while you've observed some things that are very important for other women to know,

0:04:33.455,0:04:38.026
that you've had the same challenges that many others of us have,

0:04:38.026,0:04:44.746
as you faced the hurdles and the barriers and possibly the people who don't believe the same.

0:04:44.746,0:04:49.523
So talk about that process: deciding that you go public with the private part,

0:04:49.523,0:04:53.533
and then you would also put yourself in the position of something of an expert

0:04:53.533,0:04:56.301
on how to resolve those challenges.

0:04:56.301,0:04:57.317


0:04:57.317,0:05:00.019
SS: After I did the TED Talk, what happened was --

0:05:00.019,0:05:02.536
you know, I never expected to write a book, I'm not an author, I'm not a writer,

0:05:02.536,0:05:07.313
and it was viewed a lot, and it really started impacting people's lives.

0:05:07.313,0:05:10.772
I got this great --- one of the first letters I got was from a woman

0:05:10.772,0:05:16.076
who said that she was offered a really big promotion at work, and she turned it down,

0:05:16.076,0:05:19.791
and she told her very best friend she turned it down, and she said "you really need to watch this TED Talk."

0:05:19.791,0:05:24.515
And so she watched this TED Talk, and she went back the next day, she took the job,

0:05:24.515,0:05:28.439
she went home, and she handed her husband the grocery list.

0:05:28.439,0:05:30.831
And she said, I can do this.

0:05:30.831,0:05:34.170
And what really mattered to me was it wasn't just women in the corporate world,

0:05:34.170,0:05:36.954
even though I did hear from a lot of them, and it did impact a lot of them,

0:05:36.954,0:05:41.002
it was also people of all different circumstancecs.

0:05:41.002,0:05:44.531
There was a doctor I met who was an attending physician at Johns HOpkins,

0:05:44.531,0:05:48.155
and he said that until he saw my TED Talk, it never really occurred to him

0:05:48.155,0:05:50.699
that even though half of the students in his med school classes were women,

0:05:50.699,0:05:53.256
they weren't speaking as much as the men as he did his rounds.

0:05:53.256,0:05:59.559
So he started paying attention, and as he waited for raised hands, he realized the men's hands were up.

0:05:59.559,0:06:03.753
So he started encouraging the women to raise their hands more. Right?

0:06:03.753,0:06:04.722
And it still didn't work.

0:06:04.722,0:06:06.691
So he told everyone, no more hand raising, I'm cold-calling.

0:06:06.691,0:06:10.403
So he could call evenly on men and women. And what he proved to himself

0:06:10.403,0:06:13.373
was that the women knew the answers just as well or better,

0:06:13.373,0:06:16.555
and he was able to go back to them and tell them that. And then, you know,

0:06:16.555,0:06:21.197
there was the woman, stay-at-home mom, lives in a really difficult neighborhood,

0:06:21.197,0:06:24.678
not a great school, she said that TED Talk -- she's never had a corporate job,

0:06:24.678,0:06:30.345
but that TED Talk inspired her to go to that school and fight for a better teacher for her child.

0:06:30.345,0:06:34.131
And I guess what's part of finding my own voice

0:06:34.131,0:06:39.037
and I realize that other women and men could find thier own voice through it,

0:06:39.037,0:06:41.613
which is why I went from that talk to the book.

0:06:41.613,0:06:47.799
I: And in the book, you not only found your voice, which is clear and strong in the book,

0:06:47.799,0:06:51.487
but you also share what you've learned --

0:06:51.487,0:06:54.599
the experiences of other people in the lessons.

0:06:54.599,0:06:59.366
And that's what I'm thinking about in terms of putting yourself in a --

0:06:59.366,0:07:03.889
you became a sort of expert in how you lean in.

0:07:03.889,0:07:08.313
So what did that feel like, and become like in your life?[br]

0:07:08.313,0:07:13.987
To launch not just a book, not just a best-selling, best-viewed talk,

0:07:13.987,0:07:19.814
but a movement, where people begin to literally describe their actions at work as

0:07:19.814,0:07:22.758
"I'm leaning in."

0:07:22.758,0:07:29.986
SS: I mean, I'm grateful, I'm honored, I'm happy, and it's the very beginning.

0:07:29.986,0:07:34.500
So I don't know if I'm an expert or if anyone [???]. I certainly have done a lot of research

0:07:34.500,0:07:38.005
I have read every study, I have pored over all the materials,

0:07:38.005,0:07:40.941
and the lessons are very clear. Because here's what we know:

0:07:40.941,0:07:46.005
what we know is that stereotypes are holding women back from leadership roles all over the world.

0:07:46.005,0:07:48.764
It's so striking, Lean In's very global, I've been all over the world,

0:07:48.764,0:07:51.205
talking about it, and -- cultures are so different.

0:07:51.205,0:07:56.040
Even in our own country, to Japan, and to Korea, to China, to Asia, Europe,

0:07:56.040,0:07:59.985
they' re so different, except for one thing: gender.

0:07:59.985,0:08:02.415
All over the wolrd, no matter what our cultures are,

0:08:02.415,0:08:06.451
we think men snould be strong, assertive, aggressive, ahve voice,

0:08:06.451,0:08:10.740
we think women should speak when spoken to, help others.

0:08:10.740,0:08:14.703
Now how -- you know, I've asked -- we have all over the world

0:08:14.703,0:08:18.496
women are called "bossy." There is a word for "bossy"

0:08:18.496,0:08:20.614
for little girls, in every language there's one.

0:08:20.614,0:08:23.101
It's a word that's pretty much not used for little boys,

0:08:23.101,0:08:25.893
because if a little boy leads, there's no negative word for it,

0:08:25.893,0:08:30.850
it's expected. But if a little girl leads, she's bossy.

0:08:30.850,0:08:33.066
Now I know there aren't a lot of men here, but bear with me.

0:08:33.066,0:08:35.547
If you're a man, you'll have to represent your gender.

0:08:35.547,0:08:39.466
Please raise your hand if you've been told you're too aggressive at work.

0:08:39.466,0:08:40.690
There's always a few, it runs about 5%. Now get ready, gentlemen --

0:08:40.690,0:08:51.883
If you're a woman, please raise your hand if you've ever been told you're too aggressive at work.

0:08:51.883,0:08:56.804
(laughter) That is what audiences have said in every country in the world,

0:08:56.804,0:08:59.763
and it's deeply supported by the data.

0:08:59.763,0:09:04.146
Now, do we think women are more aggressive than men? Of course not.

0:09:04.146,0:09:06.573
It's just that we judge them through a different lens,

0:09:06.573,0:09:11.003
and a lot of the character traits that you must exhibit to perform at work, to get results, to lead,

0:09:11.003,0:09:13.703
are ones that we think, in a man, he's the boss.

0:09:13.703,0:09:16.111
And in a woman, she's bossy.

0:09:16.111,0:09:19.781
And the good news about this is that we can change this by acknowledging it.

0:09:19.781,0:09:22.478
One of the happiest moments I had in this whole journey

0:09:22.478,0:09:27.242
is, after the book came out, I stood on a stage with John Chambers, the chairman of Cisco,

0:09:27.242,0:09:31.286
He read the book. He stood on stage with me, invited me in front of his whole management team,

0:09:31.286,0:09:34.956
men and women, and he said, I thought we were good at this. I thought that I was good at this.

0:09:34.956,0:09:39.191
And then I read this book, and I realized that we -- my company --

0:09:39.191,0:09:41.328
we have called all of our senior women too aggressive,

0:09:41.328,0:09:43.807
and I'm standing on this stage, and I'm sorry.

0:09:43.807,0:09:47.046
And I want you to know we're never going to do it again.

0:09:47.046,0:09:47.767
I: Wow.

0:09:47.767,0:09:50.538
Can leave Sinbad [???] to a lot of other people.

0:09:50.538,0:09:54.852
SS: So John is doing that because he believes it's good for his company.

0:09:54.852,0:09:58.106
So this kind of acknowledgement of these biases can change it.

0:09:58.106,0:10:01.139
And so next time you all see someone call a little girl bossy,

0:10:01.139,0:10:04.134
you'll walk right up to that person, big smile, and say

0:10:04.134,0:10:09.100
that little girl's not bossy. That little girl has executive leadership skills.

0:10:09.100,0:10:13.370
I: I know that's what you're telling your daughter.

0:10:13.370,0:10:19.270
And you did focus in the book, and you said that your reason in writing it was to create a dialogue about this.

0:10:19.270,0:10:22.273
I mean, let's just put it out there, face the fact that women are,

0:10:22.273,0:10:26.098
in a time when we have more open doors, and more opportunities,

0:10:26.098,0:10:29.248
are still not getting to the leadership positions.

0:10:29.248,0:10:31.632
So in the months that have come since the book,

0:10:31.632,0:10:34.128
in which Lean In focussed on that and said,

0:10:34.128,0:10:38.612
here are some of the challenges that remain, and many of them we have to own within ourselves

0:10:38.612,0:10:41.236
and look at ourselves. What has changed?

0:10:41.236,0:10:43.245
Have you seen changes?

0:10:43.245,0:10:45.708
SS: Well, there's certainly more dialogue, which is great.

0:10:45.708,0:10:48.618
But what really matters to me, and I think all of us, is action.

0:10:48.618,0:10:51.988
So everywhere I go, CEOs, they;'re mostly men, say to me,

0:10:51.988,0:10:54.252
you're costing me so much money.

0:10:54.252,0:10:57.870
Because all of the women want to be paid as much as the men.

0:10:57.870,0:11:00.859
And to them I say, I'm not sorry at all.

0:11:00.859,0:11:05.650
At all. I mean, the women should be paid as much as the men.

0:11:05.650,0:11:08.910
Everywhere I go, women tell me they ask for raises.

0:11:08.910,0:11:12.953
Everywhere I go, women say they're getting better relationships with their spouses,

0:11:12.953,0:11:16.841
asking for more help at home, asking for the promotions they should be getting at work,

0:11:16.841,0:11:19.748
and importantly, believing it themselves. Even little things.

0:11:19.748,0:11:23.840
One of the governors of one of the states told me that he didn't realize that more women were, in fact,

0:11:23.840,0:11:26.284
literally sitting on the side of the room, which they are,

0:11:26.284,0:11:30.756
and now he made a rule that all the women on his staff need to sit at the table.

0:11:30.756,0:11:33.666
The foundation I started along with the book Lean In

0:11:33.666,0:11:37.558
helps women, or men, start circles -- small groups,

0:11:37.558,0:11:39.651
can be 10, can be however much you want, which meet once a month

0:11:39.651,0:11:43.742
I would have hope that by now, we'd have about 500 circles. That would've been great.

0:11:43.742,0:11:46.557
You know, 500 times roughly 10.

0:11:46.557,0:11:50.602
There are over 12,000 circles in 50 countries in the world.

0:11:50.602,0:11:51.561
I: Wow.

0:11:51.561,0:11:54.498
SS: And these are people who are meeting every single month.

0:11:54.498,0:11:56.961
I met one of them, I was in Beijing.

0:11:56.961,0:12:01.322
A group of women, they're all about 29 or 30, they started the first Lean In circle in Beijing,

0:12:01.322,0:12:05.146
several of them grew up in very poor, rural China.

0:12:05.146,0:12:11.724
These women are 29, they are told by their society that they are "left over,"

0:12:11.724,0:12:13.412
because they are not yet married,

0:12:13.412,0:12:16.919
and the process of coming together on a month at meeting

0:12:16.919,0:12:19.342
is helping them define who they are for themselves.

0:12:19.342,0:12:22.155
What they want in their careers. The kind of partners they want, if at all.

0:12:22.155,0:12:25.973
I looked at them, we went around and introduced ourselves,

0:12:25.973,0:12:27.674
and they all said their names and where they're from,

0:12:27.674,0:12:31.154
and I said, I 'm Sheryl Sandberg, and this was my dream.

0:12:31.154,0:12:33.890
And I kind of just started crying.

0:12:33.890,0:12:34.610
I: Right.

0:12:34.610,0:12:36.858
SS: Which, I admit, I do. I've talked about it before.

0:12:36.858,0:12:42.151
But the fact that a woman so far away in the world, who grew up in a rural village,

0:12:42.151,0:12:45.816
who's being told to marry someone she doesn't want to marry

0:12:45.816,0:12:49.384
can now go meet once a month with a group of people and refuse that.

0:12:49.384,0:12:52.064
And find life on her own terms.

0:12:52.064,0:12:54.305
That's the kind of change we have to hope for.

0:12:54.305,0:12:58.207
I: Have you been surprised by the global nature of the message?[br]

0:12:58.207,0:13:00.865
Because I think when the book first came out, many people thought,

0:13:00.865,0:13:04.616
well, this is a really important handbook for young women on their way up.

0:13:04.616,0:13:08.962
They need to look at this and anticipate the barriers, recognize them,

0:13:08.962,0:13:11.734
put them out in the open, have the dialogue about it,

0:13:11.734,0:13:16.807
but it's really for women who are that. Doing that. Pursuing the corporate world.

0:13:16.807,0:13:20.848
And yet the book is being read, as you say, in rural and developing countries.

0:13:20.848,0:13:21.791
SS: Yeah.

0:13:21.791,0:13:27.730
I: What part of that has surprised you, and perhaps led to a new perspective on your part?

0:13:27.730,0:13:31.515
SS: The book is about self-confidence, and about equality.

0:13:31.515,0:13:35.571
And it turns out, everywhere in the world, women need more self-confidence,

0:13:35.571,0:13:37.744
because the world tell us we're not equal to men.

0:13:37.744,0:13:41.203
Everywhere in the world, we live in a world where the men get "and,"

0:13:41.203,0:13:42.746
and the women get "or."

0:13:42.746,0:13:46.112
I've never met a man who's been asked how he does it all.

0:13:46.112,0:13:49.402
Again, I'm going to turn to the men in the audience:

0:13:49.402,0:13:52.126
please raise your hand if you've been asked, how do you do it all?

0:13:52.126,0:13:53.898
(laughter)

0:13:53.898,0:13:55.283
Men only.

0:13:55.283,0:13:59.407
Women, please raise your hand if you've been asked how you do it all?

0:13:59.407,0:14:06.396
We assume men can do it all, slash -- have jobs and children.

0:14:06.396,0:14:08.344
We assume women can't, and that's ridiculous,

0:14:08.344,0:14:12.029
because the great majority of women everywhere in the world, including the United States,

0:14:12.029,0:14:14.139
work full time and have children.

0:14:14.139,0:14:19.327
And I think people don't fully understand how broad the message is.

0:14:19.327,0:14:23.827
There is a circle that's been started for rescued sex workers in Miami.

0:14:23.827,0:14:28.286
They're using Lean In to help people make the transition

0:14:28.286,0:14:32.981
back to twhat would be a fair life, really rescuing them from their pimps

0:14:32.981,0:14:37.530
and using it. There are dress-for-success groups in Texas which ar eusing the book.

0:14:37.530,0:14:39.282
For women who have never been to college,

0:14:39.282,0:14:43.147
and we know there are groups all the way to Ethiopia.

0:14:43.147,0:14:48.815
And so these messages of equality -- of how women are told they can't have what men can have --

0:14:48.815,0:14:53.278
how we assume that leadership is for men, how we assume that voice is for men,

0:14:53.278,0:14:57.678
these affect all of us, and I think they are very universal.

0:14:57.678,0:14:58.586
And it's part of what TED Women does.

0:14:58.586,0:15:02.046
It unities all of us in a cause we have to believe in,

0:15:02.046,0:15:06.170
which is more women, more voice, more equality.

0:15:06.170,0:15:12.920
I: If you were invited now to make another TED Women talk,

0:15:12.920,0:15:18.023
what would you say that, as a result of this experience, for you personally,

0:15:18.023,0:15:20.895
and what you learned about women, and men,

0:15:20.895,0:15:22.720
as you've made this journey?

0:15:22.720,0:15:27.602
SS: I think I would sya -- I tried to say this strongly,

0:15:27.602,0:15:30.078
but I think I can say it more strongly --

0:15:30.078,0:15:33.383
I want to say that the status quo is not enough.

0:15:33.383,0:15:36.349
That it's not good enough, that it's not changing quickly enough.

0:15:36.349,0:15:41.536
Since I gave my TED Talk and publishe dmy book, another year of data came out from the U.S. Censue

0:15:41.536,0:15:43.088
And you know what we found?

0:15:43.088,0:15:45.888
No movement in the wage gap for women in the United States.

0:15:45.888,0:15:48.617
77 cents to the dollar.

0:15:48.617,0:15:50.759
If you are a black woman, 64 cents.

0:15:50.759,0:15:53.079
If you are a Latina, we're at 54 cents.

0:15:53.079,0:15:55.479
Did you know when the last time those numbers went up?

0:15:55.479,0:15:57.959
2002.

0:15:57.959,0:16:02.748
We are stagnating, wwe are stagnating in so many ways.

0:16:02.748,0:16:05.572
And I think we are not really being honest about that.

0:16:05.572,0:16:08.724
for so many reasons. It's so hard ot talk ablut gender.

0:16:08.724,0:16:12.512
We shy away from the word feminist, a word I really think we need to embrace.

0:16:12.512,0:16:15.918
We have to get rid of the word bossy and bring back --

0:16:15.918,0:16:19.124
(applause)

0:16:19.124,0:16:23.278
I think I would say in a louder voice, we need to get rid of the word bossy

0:16:23.278,0:16:25.791
and bring back the word feminist, because we need it.

0:16:25.791,0:16:28.740


0:16:28.740,0:16:29.486
(applause and cheers)

0:16:29.486,0:16:31.652
I: And we all need to do a lot more leaning in.

0:16:31.652,0:16:32.714
SS: A lot more leaning in.

0:16:32.714,0:16:33.652
I: Thank you, Sheryl.

0:16:33.652,0:16:35.009
Thanks for leaning in and saying yes.

0:16:35.009,0:16:36.846
SS: Thank you.

0:16:36.846,9:59:59.000
(applause)