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<i>preroll music</i>

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Herald: Our next talk

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is going to provide a
bit of introspection.

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“We lost the war” has been the name

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of a talk also by Rop and Frank

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at the congress 10 years ago.

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And this is basically the
updated version of that talk.

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Over the next hour, we’ll hear about
the past and current events as well

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and the bold prediction
for the future, I hear.

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So please give a warm
welcome to Rop and Frank!

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<i>applause</i>

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Frank: Thank you for being here!
Let’s start with a very quick question:

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Who has seen, either
in person, or on video,

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our talk from 10 years ago?

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And who has read the
text that belongs to it?

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<i>chuckles</i>

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Ok, thank you!

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So, 10 years ago, at the congress,
we felt that we needed to talk about

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the state of the world, about what
the state of the hacker community is.

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Rop and me are coming from
quite different backgrounds.

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Rop is from Netherlands, 
I’m from East Germany,

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so we have both our perspectives
on the hacker culture

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and the position of the hacker
culture in our world, but we share

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a rather common way of analysing
stuff and analysing the world.

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So, the talk back then depressed
the hell out of a lot of people

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because it was just four years after 9/11

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and people were not really
ready to accept that

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things are probably not
gonna be really good and nice

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in the near future.

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And so, the press had quite a
number of things to say;

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most of them circled around the cover
of the “Datenschleuder” back then

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where the text was published
that belonged to the talk.

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“Hackers raising the white flag”,
“Hackers giving up”, in this way.

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Which was not really what
we intended, actually.

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Because we actually wanted to just say:

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“Ok, reality is not looking too bright,

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but that doesn’t mean
we need to be depressed.”

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And this is somewhat what
we’re trying this year again.

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<i>chuckles</i>

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So, one of the critics
that we had in this talk

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was that we used the term “they”
a little bit too losely.

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“They” meaning
“the others, the enemies”.

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So, we just want to clarify up-front

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that we don’t really believe
in large conspiracies.

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The world is too complex
for large conspiracies.

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There is no world government
that does all these things;

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it’s not like the Illuminati are sitting
somewhere with the Gnomes of Zurich

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and doing this stuff, but

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it’s also not like freedom and
liberty don’t have enemies!

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As probably, many of you
have seen the talk about

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the people who got incarcerated
in Guantanamo,

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there are people out there
who really don’t believe

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in freedom and democracy and they
are plenty, and they are powerful.

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And this is what we meant with “they”.

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<i>chuckles</i>

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In that sense.

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Rop: The other criticism that we got is
that you can’t really speak of a war,

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upholding civil liberties, upholding
democracy is a perpetual fight.

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You have to continuously fight,
there is no winning, there is no losing,

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there is just this continuous struggle.

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Which is of course true!
That criticism is completely right.

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But we argued and continue to argue

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that there are certain things that are so
much easier to prevent than to undo

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and that the introduction of
ubiquitous general surveillance,

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recording of everything,
is one of these things

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that grows power structures
which are incredibly hard to get rid of

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and it’s so much better to prevent.

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And that’s probably part of
a class of events

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of turnings that are better to prevent

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than to have happened.

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The drone war is the beginning
of the perpetual undeclared war

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fought by robots.

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There’s something fundamentally
that changed

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when the West, when America
introduced a system

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of black sites and torture happening
all over the world;

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prisons without any accountability
where people can be locked up for a decade

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without any trial, without anything.

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And of course climate change
brings possible tipping points,

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maybe behind us, maybe still ahead of us.

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So these are all events where,
yes, you can speak of war

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or at least of major battles,
and of winnings and losses, in that sense.

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Frank: So, essentially, what we said was:

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“We lost the war when 9/11 happened.”

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And that was the war for taking
the direct route to a positive utopia

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to a utopia that is not from the
dystopian novels and computer games

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but is going straight to, yeah, the
positive world outcome. We lost that war.

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And, if we look back, 10 years later,

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very few people will probably
dispute this finding.

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So when we look quickly back
at the predictions that we made

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we were mostly right.
So the economy tanked 3 years later

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because the brittle system
of banking nearly collapsed

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and was just by hair breadth rescued

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by means that really nobody
understands anymore.

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So the one thing that we were
wrong about so far is the price of oil

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that, miraculously, currently is very low.

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But still nobody really understands
why this is truly the case.

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It is utterly bizarre.

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So, democracy, if you look at
what has happened to democracy

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in the Western societies

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it is hard to argue that 
democracy has made large progress.

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On the contrary, what we see is,

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that in many countries
democracy is on the way out,

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is no longer the preferred
system of government for many people.

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The security state, we can see it
in our everyday lives, it is encroaching.

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Meanwhile, you need to
pass security check gates

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when you want to board
a train in several countries.

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Ubiquitous surveillance is there.
We have data retention.

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So the security state is
making large progress.

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What we said back then, about
climate and the refugees,

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has largely been vindicated.

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If you look at the weather
patterns that we have:

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Today even in Reykjavik, they have now
a storm with over 300 km/h

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that is coming in there.

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We don’t have winter anymore in Germany,

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so it is becoming kind of obvious

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that the climate is not right anymore.

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And the refugees that are being
caused by this climate change

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are around the corner.

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So, another thing that
we were talking about

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was surveillance and whistleblowers,

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and the need for that, we come
a little bit later to that.

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Rop: This talk is not going
to be as depressing as the one in 2005,

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not because the subject
matter is less depressing

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or has become better all of a sudden

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but because more people are used to
the world being the way it is.

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There’s no longer... we no longer need
to shock an audience into a world we see,

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that is completely different from
the world that most people perceive.

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And the goal for this talk is to get
a large group of mostly very smart people

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– being you and whoever watches this –

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to be as happy and as politically
productive as possible

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in an environment that is still
going to be increasingly dystopian.

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And when we talk about
a dystopian environment

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the most important issue that is pressing,
immediate, and involves all of humanity,

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is, of course, climate change.

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F: So what we see is not so much

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a direct global warming but a
“global weirding”.

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That means, that the weather patterns
are shifting. The Hadley Cells, which is

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the way the water goes up and where
the water goes down, are shifting.

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That means that the livelyhoods of many
people who are depending on agriculture

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are threatened. And we don’t know

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where these patterns will be moving.

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The one thing that we can see
is that future generations

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will look back at us as the guilty party.

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We are the people, in their eyes,
in the eyes of our children,

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we and our parents were the people 
who basically fucked up the planet,

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probably beyond repair.

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<i>applause</i>

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And the one thing that we
would like to call you on

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is taking this responsibility.

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So, what we see now with the
Syrian war is just the beginning.

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It is just the early wars

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that have a strong climate component

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that we can see in many more
conflicts that are rising.

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So most of the Arab spring had
a large component of food riots,

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of food prices going up,

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which was certainly to a large
extent also speculation,

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but also draught, meaning lack of
water in large parts of the world.

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And there will be many more.

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So there is no real way to
escape this reality any more.

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Rop: This planet is largely a crime scene.

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The fossil fuel industry,
who have known about this

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since the 1970s,

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needs to be killed or needs to be...
their bottom line

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needs to be hurt significantly
because a lot of the carbon that

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they’re currently getting out of the Earth
needs to stay there and not be burned.

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The technology to change our energy
infrastructure is already there,

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solar is already profitable or
near profitable in a lot of places,

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and we need to fight conflicts that are

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going to have components
in fighting in courts,

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they have components in fighting
in demonstrations in the streets,

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we need to take charge of these issues.

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If you look at what’s currently happening
with the fossil fuel industry,

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it’s a lot like the tobacco industry.

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If you have known for so
long that this was going on,

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and you have prevented
the correct policy response

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by hiding the science,
by muddling the image,

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then you have responsibility, and

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if there is damage,
you are culpable for that.

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Also techno-optimism is
a problem in our circles.

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Many people think: “Well, we screwed up
this planet maybe, but we have spacecraft,

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we can go to other planets,
there’s other worlds!”

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That doesn’t work. There are no
habitable planets in our reach

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and there won’t be
for generations to come.

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So no matter how bad
things may get on Earth,

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it’s still not going to be anywhere near
as inhospitable, on a bad day,

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as it will be on Mars
on the best possible day.

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See? That’s a positive message, huh?

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<i>laughter</i>

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<i>applause</i>

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Frank: Yeah, I mean, the core
of the hacker culture is:

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breaking stuff, fixing things.

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And this planet, if you can say so,
is our spaceship,

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and it really needs fixing.

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And so this is something that we see

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that the hacker community
or hacking community

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can do much more.

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And if you look at [from] where
the refugees are coming

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and for what reasons they are coming,

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we see that there is a lot of regions that

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will become hard to live in

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so either because there is
too much water, there’s too little water,

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the ground turns into swamps,

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and so these countries will
be massively struggling

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with how to feed their population,
how to give them space to live,

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and there’s a lot of stuff to do,

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for technological minded people with
organisational capabilities

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like our community is,
to help these people.

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And to prevent also the dystopian
streak that governments

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usually take on when they
are in emergency situations.

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If you look at the larger refugee camps,

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that is a massively dystopian set-up.

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So people are wearing wristbands to
register at every checkpoint,

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they are limited in their
range of movement,

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they are just barely fed and
housed and that’s about it.

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And that means that a world that
is in constant emergency mode

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has a really hard time
to be a democratic society.

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But on top of that, the West,
the Western countries,

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but increasingly also China,
and the other upcoming

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larger powers, have their
hands in pushing countries

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into chaos, so we have seen now
a large sequence of things

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that end up with Syria and Libya,

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where under the disguise of
bringing forward democracy

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with drones, countries are
essentially pushed into chaos.

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Because no one took responsibility of

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setting up structures,
setting up stability,

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making sure that the people there

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actually end up not in
a much worse situation

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than they have been in before.

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And so the human rights
and the managing of

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migration is in direct conflict
with the economic interest

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of the arms industry. If we look at

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who is selling these
arms it’s mostly Western

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countries and Russia. And we are
selling these arms to countries

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like Saudi Arabia which will be the next

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large conflict zone. And which
don’t have any democratic control.

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And we just do that under the disguise of

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providing stability to regions.

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00:14:43,209 --> 00:14:45,589
And while bombing
countries into democracy

239
00:14:45,589 --> 00:14:49,350
fortunately has become very much unpopular

240
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:52,589
this is also why the arms
industry is pushing so much

241
00:14:52,589 --> 00:14:55,720
for drones. Because drones can fly around

242
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,279
and not destabilize countries for oil

243
00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:04,149
and not causing body bags coming home.

244
00:15:04,149 --> 00:15:09,839
But it would be wrong to
say that US foreign policy

245
00:15:09,839 --> 00:15:14,120
has been a failure. It has not.

246
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,409
So if you look at the core interest 
behind this foreign policy

247
00:15:18,409 --> 00:15:23,420
what is happening there, basically
countries being un-balanced,

248
00:15:23,420 --> 00:15:28,419
nobody really being able to concentrate
their power to challenge their hegemony,

249
00:15:28,419 --> 00:15:30,689
this has been largely a success.

250
00:15:30,689 --> 00:15:34,339
So, sure, there has been
a lot of chaos around,

251
00:15:34,339 --> 00:15:37,480
but economically, and
for the arms industry

252
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,369
in these countries,
especially in the US and the UK,

253
00:15:40,369 --> 00:15:44,309
but also other Western countries,
this has been a very successful decade.

254
00:15:44,309 --> 00:15:49,220
So it’s not like their policies
have been failures.

255
00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:57,389
Rop: <i>quietly, to Frank</i>
Do you want to put this ?

256
00:15:57,389 --> 00:16:00,369
Next slide I think.

257
00:16:00,369 --> 00:16:06,199
Frank: Yeah, one of the
things that are the tools

258
00:16:06,199 --> 00:16:10,799
of foreign policy
<i>scoffs</i> in the West

259
00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:14,079
is of course ubiquitous surveillance
and we had...

260
00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:18,349
In 2005, we wrote that we need

261
00:16:18,349 --> 00:16:21,339
to know how the intelligence
agencies work today,

262
00:16:21,339 --> 00:16:25,599
we need to know how the backdoors work,

263
00:16:25,599 --> 00:16:30,329
and how that is done in large scale.
That was 2005.

264
00:16:30,329 --> 00:16:33,970
And we also wrote that we need

265
00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:37,309
the infrastructure to
harbour whistleblowers,

266
00:16:37,309 --> 00:16:39,449
to make it possible for
people from the dark side to

267
00:16:39,449 --> 00:16:44,109
come forward, and get
this information out.

268
00:16:44,109 --> 00:16:47,439
At least on this, it has been a success.
<i>scoffs</i>

269
00:16:47,439 --> 00:16:49,299
This we can say.

270
00:16:49,299 --> 00:16:56,299
<i>applause</i>

271
00:16:57,549 --> 00:17:00,880
So we now know much more about

272
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:07,130
how the surveillance works, and
– but does it really help?

273
00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:10,569
Rop: For most people, looking at the
Snowden revelations, it’s like

274
00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:13,569
discovering a new force of nature.
It’s like they have discovered

275
00:17:13,569 --> 00:17:16,989
this whole universe
that they didn’t previously know about,

276
00:17:16,989 --> 00:17:21,909
there’s this “deep state” level
of logic, of thinking, of diplomacy,

277
00:17:21,919 --> 00:17:27,939
of how countries really interact,
that now many more people know about.

278
00:17:27,939 --> 00:17:30,749
What was considered paranoid,
what was considered:

279
00:17:30,749 --> 00:17:33,940
“Oh my god, this is like a really
cynical way of looking at things!”

280
00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:37,879
– now, many more people can see the
documents, be they diplomatic cables,

281
00:17:37,879 --> 00:17:41,609
or be they the Snowden revelations,
and they can look and they can see:

282
00:17:41,609 --> 00:17:46,659
“Look, this is really how
the world works.”

283
00:17:46,659 --> 00:17:49,779
But, leaking alone is not sufficient.

284
00:17:49,779 --> 00:17:53,400
There’s – as we can now see –
there’s too much systemic corruption,

285
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,850
too many secrets, too many
anti-leaker laws and measures.

286
00:17:56,850 --> 00:18:00,170
We’re going to need true transparency
laws and we’re going to need to be able

287
00:18:00,170 --> 00:18:03,159
to trust our governments and our
parliaments to do the right thing.

288
00:18:03,159 --> 00:18:06,849
There was this naive belief that
if the scandal is big enough,

289
00:18:06,849 --> 00:18:09,870
the system will finally correct itself.

290
00:18:09,870 --> 00:18:14,599
What we see is the opposite. We see a
scandal of the magnitude of Watergate

291
00:18:14,599 --> 00:18:19,069
every week or every two weeks
and nothing is happening.

292
00:18:19,069 --> 00:18:21,859
We need to cope with that,
we need to come up with new strategies.

293
00:18:21,859 --> 00:18:26,170
It’s like the paranoid movies
where finally the protagonist

294
00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:30,590
gets to the president, and tells
the conspiracy to the president, and then

295
00:18:30,590 --> 00:18:34,419
finds out in, sort of, in shadowy
words, he can find out

296
00:18:34,419 --> 00:18:37,169
that the president is already
part of the conspiracy.

297
00:18:37,169 --> 00:18:41,000
When the Snowden revelations came out it
was quickly clear that our governments

298
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,879
were not shocked, they were not like,
“Oh my god, our intelligence agencies

299
00:18:43,879 --> 00:18:46,620
are really out of control! We need to do
something!” No, they were like:

300
00:18:46,620 --> 00:18:52,269
“No, there’s nothing going on here,
keep moving, pay no attention.”

301
00:18:52,269 --> 00:18:56,349
So we really need to come up
with strategies to deal with that.

302
00:18:56,349 --> 00:18:58,950
Frank: So essentially their reaction was,

303
00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:02,650
it was one of the first from when the

304
00:19:02,650 --> 00:19:07,489
NSA was confronted by
the German government,

305
00:19:07,489 --> 00:19:11,239
and their answer was:
“So, ok, now you know.”

306
00:19:11,239 --> 00:19:13,099
<i>scoffs</i>

307
00:19:13,099 --> 00:19:17,420
But that was about it.
So what we have is the situation

308
00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:24,020
that it looks like transparency alone
doesn’t help anymore.

309
00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:27,790
We had somehow hoped that...
It was also one of the naive beliefs

310
00:19:27,790 --> 00:19:33,099
of the early internet times, that
transparency alone, “If people just knew”,

311
00:19:33,099 --> 00:19:37,509
if people knew the problems,
the things, they would act,

312
00:19:37,509 --> 00:19:42,029
they would get their stuff together
and, yeah, basically, change the system.

313
00:19:42,029 --> 00:19:46,000
And it turned out that this
was a quite naive belief.

314
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,849
But that doesn’t mean that
transparency is not important.

315
00:19:48,849 --> 00:19:53,400
It turns out that transparency
is like basic hygiene,

316
00:19:53,409 --> 00:19:57,980
it’s like brushing your teeth,
like taking a shower for society.

317
00:19:57,980 --> 00:20:02,440
So if you don’t have a transparency
of power and the power structures

318
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,489
and of what interests are
being conceived by whom,

319
00:20:07,489 --> 00:20:11,119
what the tools of surveillance are,
“who knows what”,

320
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,800
then you cannot have a democracy anymore.

321
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,330
Because the world has become
so complex that it’s very easy

322
00:20:17,330 --> 00:20:22,959
to hide relatively sinister
interests within society.

323
00:20:22,959 --> 00:20:26,690
We even have the problem now that,
if you have a proper conspiracy

324
00:20:26,690 --> 00:20:30,110
– a small one! –
if you make it complex enough,

325
00:20:30,110 --> 00:20:34,839
the scandal cannot be told
within one print page

326
00:20:34,839 --> 00:20:38,099
or one scroll range on the web site.

327
00:20:38,099 --> 00:20:41,440
Then it’s hard to have it
as a scandal anymore.

328
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:47,339
Which is also part of the reason why
the Snowden revelations were kind of

329
00:20:47,339 --> 00:20:52,710
difficult to turn into concrete
action for the larger society.

330
00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:55,479
So one thing that we need to keep in mind

331
00:20:55,479 --> 00:20:58,349
is that even the well meaning
people in government

332
00:20:58,349 --> 00:21:02,829
and in bureaucratic institutions
really need transparency

333
00:21:02,829 --> 00:21:07,200
to keep things in check, so it’s not
like transparency is useless or is

334
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,960
something that we
should give up as a goal,

335
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,850
but we need to understand
it has a different meaning,

336
00:21:12,850 --> 00:21:16,860
a different purpose than
what we originally thought.

337
00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:22,700
So the question is will this apathy last?

338
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:26,480
So, what will happen
when people start realizing

339
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:33,459
that the surveillance that they have
been trained to ignore somehow

340
00:21:33,459 --> 00:21:37,520
will be in everything that they own.
When the “internet of things”

341
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,889
starts for real – we have
basically network sensors

342
00:21:42,889 --> 00:21:46,579
in everything we own – then, suddenly,

343
00:21:46,579 --> 00:21:49,109
the world becomes treacherous.

344
00:21:49,109 --> 00:21:54,129
So everything that you own,
every door that you open,

345
00:21:54,129 --> 00:21:58,579
everytime that you go to the fridge – if
you have an “internet of things” fridge –

346
00:21:58,579 --> 00:22:02,639
then your fridge will snitch on you.
<i>chuckles</i>

347
00:22:02,639 --> 00:22:06,210
And tell somebody that you opened
it and what you took out of it.

348
00:22:06,210 --> 00:22:10,070
And if... the question is if this
maybe will change things.

349
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:12,309
It’s an open question to me. I don’t know.

350
00:22:12,309 --> 00:22:15,789
So maybe the people
will stay in this apathy

351
00:22:15,789 --> 00:22:18,950
and not change their attitudes
but maybe there is

352
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:21,830
a critical mass point where people say

353
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:25,090
“Now, it’s enough. It’s enough.”

354
00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:28,319
So, maybe we need a seal:

355
00:22:28,319 --> 00:22:31,129
“Certified cloud-less object”
or something.

356
00:22:31,129 --> 00:22:34,130
that we need to stick on stuff.

357
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:39,180
<i>applause</i>

358
00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:42,880
And this is also one of the things that
the hacker community is being asked for,

359
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,550
as, actually, we are the ones... the
hacking people are the ones that

360
00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:51,089
can actually do this, making
objects cloud-less again,

361
00:22:51,089 --> 00:22:54,119
<i>chuckles</i>
if needed.

362
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,869
If we look at the progress of technology
we can see that facial recognition,

363
00:22:57,869 --> 00:23:01,300
including mood detection,
micro-expression detection,

364
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:04,229
infrared blood-flow detection
will become very cheap,

365
00:23:04,229 --> 00:23:07,300
it will be everywhere. And we
need to have countermeasures.

366
00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:10,569
And that means for
instance also cooperation

367
00:23:10,569 --> 00:23:13,179
with the artists who
make clothing, who make

368
00:23:13,179 --> 00:23:16,950
make-up, who do all the
stuff that you can legally

369
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:21,700
still wear in the public domain, and

370
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:25,669
think about, with them, what we can do
against this ubiquitous surveillance.

371
00:23:25,669 --> 00:23:29,169
So that brings me to the core question:

372
00:23:29,169 --> 00:23:33,479
So what is our mission
as a hacking community?

373
00:23:33,479 --> 00:23:37,360
And I used to define this saying:

374
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:40,369
we are partly responsible for maintaining

375
00:23:40,369 --> 00:23:43,319
society’s capability for change.

376
00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:45,820
To keep the wiggle rooms open,

377
00:23:45,820 --> 00:23:49,720
to keep the capabilities
for political actors

378
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,389
who want to change the
society for the better,

379
00:23:52,389 --> 00:23:54,879
to make that still possible.

380
00:23:54,879 --> 00:24:01,030
Not being strangled by surveillance, not
being frozen in place by lack of options

381
00:24:01,030 --> 00:24:03,450
where people cannot do anything anymore

382
00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:06,470
because every step that
they do is registered;

383
00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:10,140
everything that they do
leads to potential blackmail.

384
00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:16,659
And Evgeny Morozov has
recently written about that,

385
00:24:16,659 --> 00:24:21,410
and he said that’s the
“invisible barbed wire”

386
00:24:21,410 --> 00:24:24,519
that is basically around
you and that is made up

387
00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:27,619
of the data that you leave
so that restricts your options,

388
00:24:27,619 --> 00:24:31,709
it restricts your room of
movement and you’re not really

389
00:24:31,709 --> 00:24:37,089
realizing that, unless you run
against the invisible barbed wire.

390
00:24:37,089 --> 00:24:45,050
And so this question of
“blackmailability” versus transparency

391
00:24:45,050 --> 00:24:49,340
– we want to have as much privacy
as we can as individuals,

392
00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:54,050
but we want to have the institutions that
have power as transparent as possible –

393
00:24:54,050 --> 00:24:57,480
is in the core of the
struggle for a free society.

394
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,179
Basically, giving the
individual the right,

395
00:25:00,179 --> 00:25:03,759
or keeping our rights,
for change, for movement,

396
00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:08,700
for making things better

397
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:13,120
versus the institutions’ capabilities
to keep stuff secret from us.

398
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:16,760
This is one of the core
struggles that we have.

399
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,789
And the intelligence agencies know stuff
about those in power.

400
00:25:21,789 --> 00:25:27,619
They know what is blackmailable.
And the interesting thing is that

401
00:25:27,630 --> 00:25:33,609
the number of blackmailable offenses
has been shrinking recently.

402
00:25:33,609 --> 00:25:37,610
That has basically shrunk to:
very clear corruption,

403
00:25:37,610 --> 00:25:41,590
pedophilia, and tax evasion.
With everything else, you can get away.

404
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,789
So, as a politician, drug use
is no problem, affair is no problem.

405
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:51,730
Having strange hobbies:
absolutely no problem.

406
00:25:51,730 --> 00:25:57,540
<i>laughter</i>
<i>applause</i>

407
00:25:57,540 --> 00:26:03,060
Homosexuality
– no problem anymore, very good!

408
00:26:04,650 --> 00:26:07,580
But, those people in
the security apparatus

409
00:26:07,580 --> 00:26:09,840
that evaluate politicians
and look at them,

410
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,649
and look what they can find against them

411
00:26:14,649 --> 00:26:18,809
in the black’n’old chambers –
we don’t know.

412
00:26:18,809 --> 00:26:21,699
So we don’t know most
of what politicians do.

413
00:26:21,699 --> 00:26:26,179
I mean, sometimes, we learn that
they have bizarre habits

414
00:26:26,179 --> 00:26:31,580
involving their genitalia and pigs,
which is, from my perspective,

415
00:26:31,580 --> 00:26:35,200
their private thing to do, but
what’s more interesting is that

416
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,409
what the circle of men there did, was
creating a shared “Kompromat”,

417
00:26:40,409 --> 00:26:46,000
a shared knowledge about each other
that was so painful back then

418
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:51,389
to publish, to divulge, that they had,
basically, mutually assured destruction

419
00:26:51,389 --> 00:26:54,530
against each other.
This is how power circles work.

420
00:26:54,530 --> 00:26:58,250
And the intelligence agencies know this
as well, and they want to get in there,

421
00:26:58,250 --> 00:27:04,569
and we have very limited
resources to find out if politicians

422
00:27:04,569 --> 00:27:08,620
are in the hands of intelligence agencies.
We can just look for the patterns.

423
00:27:08,620 --> 00:27:13,610
So if a politician suddenly
changes his course

424
00:27:13,610 --> 00:27:17,859
on matters that the “deep state”
intelligence agencies

425
00:27:17,859 --> 00:27:22,139
are concerned about, then we can be pretty
certain that they have something

426
00:27:22,139 --> 00:27:26,940
against him that falls into the
“still blackmailable” category.

427
00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:30,340
So why did Cameron survive this thing?

428
00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:34,749
Because everybody who
could have overthrown him

429
00:27:34,749 --> 00:27:37,499
was part of the same circle.
<i>chuckles</i>

430
00:27:37,499 --> 00:27:44,200
So they were all part of the same
game and they knew about it.

431
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,239
So they created a space of
invincibility around them.

432
00:27:48,239 --> 00:27:52,379
And so, the question then is, 
“Why does it all matter so little?”

433
00:27:52,379 --> 00:27:56,739
Why are all these big scandals that we
know about, all this corruption, all these

434
00:27:56,739 --> 00:28:01,289
things, where we know that
politicians really misbehaved,

435
00:28:01,289 --> 00:28:05,089
except for these three cases,
but even then –

436
00:28:05,089 --> 00:28:08,900
why is nobody rioting on the streets?
Why is nobody calling out a revolution

437
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,530
just now, why is it that
people are just saying:

438
00:28:11,530 --> 00:28:14,750
“Yeah, this is how it is,
this is how it has been

439
00:28:14,750 --> 00:28:18,180
all the time and we cannot
do anything about it?”

440
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:22,210
Rop: For that, we have to look
at the psychology of our time.

441
00:28:22,210 --> 00:28:26,829
We live in what circles around
the “Adbusters Magazine”,

442
00:28:26,829 --> 00:28:31,149
by the Adbusters collective, described
– and I thought that was really useful –

443
00:28:31,149 --> 00:28:35,290
they describe our time as a massively
polluted psychological environment.

444
00:28:35,290 --> 00:28:38,639
And it makes sense to
think about it that way.

445
00:28:38,639 --> 00:28:42,530
We have mechanisms for discourse in
society and those mechanisms are

446
00:28:42,530 --> 00:28:47,529
deliberately sabotaged, by
lobbying, advertising, sock-puppeting,

447
00:28:47,529 --> 00:28:51,229
the destruction of debate,
and the destruction

448
00:28:51,229 --> 00:28:55,040
of the human ability to think properly,

449
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,640
is very widespread in our societies.

450
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,629
There’s no more proper discourse,
there’s no proper facts,

451
00:29:01,629 --> 00:29:05,760
and there’s trends that counter
any scientific thinking

452
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,590
or enlightenment – anti-vaccination,
anti-science, anti-fact...

453
00:29:10,590 --> 00:29:15,829
There is a lot of thinking

454
00:29:15,829 --> 00:29:21,010
that rejects a common truth or rejects
a common reality that we live in,

455
00:29:21,010 --> 00:29:24,369
and tries to find niches, tries to do...

456
00:29:24,369 --> 00:29:27,369
tries to retract into something

457
00:29:27,369 --> 00:29:31,459
that we can still believe.

458
00:29:31,459 --> 00:29:35,020
We need some kind of a rationality
movement. We need some kind of a movement

459
00:29:35,020 --> 00:29:38,540
to say: “Look, we can disagree on policy,
we can disagree on a lot of things,

460
00:29:38,540 --> 00:29:41,359
but let’s not disagree
on facts. Let’s not...”

461
00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:44,749
And America is of course the capital of

462
00:29:44,749 --> 00:29:47,329
what has been described
as “bullshit mountain”,

463
00:29:47,329 --> 00:29:53,929
as whole universes that
are internally consistent

464
00:29:53,929 --> 00:29:58,139
– universes of fake
facts, of fake realities,

465
00:29:58,139 --> 00:30:02,230
of fake, and we need to reject those.

466
00:30:02,230 --> 00:30:04,820
Much of science, of the
scientific enterprises,

467
00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:09,330
at this point is very captured, economy is

468
00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:12,489
basically run by the large banks.

469
00:30:12,489 --> 00:30:15,860
But still: that doesn’t mean we can reject

470
00:30:15,860 --> 00:30:20,660
the practice of science, just because it’s
currently not in the right hands, often.

471
00:30:20,669 --> 00:30:26,280
Facts are important.

472
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,979
And it’s also important to understand

473
00:30:28,979 --> 00:30:32,149
that being angry or unhappy

474
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:34,389
right now, for prolonged periods,

475
00:30:34,389 --> 00:30:37,959
is a recognized medical condition.

476
00:30:37,959 --> 00:30:41,890
If you look at the world, and for
a year or two years at a time,

477
00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:45,190
this world makes you really depressed,
or angry, or unhappy,

478
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:49,850
you can go to the doctor and
you can get medication for that.

479
00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:54,179
Lots of people, 5% or 10%
of the population in some countries,

480
00:30:54,179 --> 00:30:56,779
are on antidepressants.

481
00:30:56,779 --> 00:30:59,539
These are the people that cannot function,

482
00:30:59,539 --> 00:31:02,679
they basically do not want to go to work.

483
00:31:02,679 --> 00:31:07,550
Are we – and this is an open question –
are we suppressing a critical mass?

484
00:31:07,550 --> 00:31:10,690
Because at some point, when there is no
other people that don’t wanna go to work,

485
00:31:10,690 --> 00:31:14,309
and start a movement, or, I don’t know,

486
00:31:14,309 --> 00:31:17,810
riot in the streets, or do whatever
else it is that they would be doing,

487
00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:21,100
if they don’t go to work. If you have
enough of these people, not doing that,

488
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:24,399
then it becomes the right decision
for the lonely person that is out there

489
00:31:24,399 --> 00:31:29,439
to also take antidepressants.

490
00:31:29,439 --> 00:31:33,029
Our community – we have to face this –
has a large pool

491
00:31:33,030 --> 00:31:36,100
of what I would call
non-neuro-normative people.

492
00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:39,949
There are lots of people in our community
that are on the autistic sprectrum,

493
00:31:39,949 --> 00:31:43,539
that are bipolar, that are...
there is lots of people

494
00:31:43,539 --> 00:31:47,419
that are not the standard norm,

495
00:31:47,419 --> 00:31:50,889
when it comes to their neurology.

496
00:31:50,889 --> 00:31:53,559
What does that mean?
What does this mean in practice?

497
00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:58,150
Hasn’t it always been the artists,
the slightly crazy people,

498
00:31:58,150 --> 00:32:01,380
the slightly non-normative people,
that have seen things coming first,

499
00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:04,640
that have warned about things first?

500
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,610
These are things we need to think about.

501
00:32:07,610 --> 00:32:12,750
Frank: Another thing that we need to
take care about in our community is:

502
00:32:12,750 --> 00:32:16,599
“Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t
mean that they’re not out to get you”

503
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:19,769
holds more true than ever.

504
00:32:19,769 --> 00:32:23,799
Because we have now in our midth...,

505
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:27,989
in our middle quite a number of
people who are actually harassed

506
00:32:27,989 --> 00:32:34,530
by the governments. So if you look at
the people from Occupy in the US,

507
00:32:34,530 --> 00:32:38,390
basically the refugee waves that
are coming in from the US,

508
00:32:38,390 --> 00:32:41,259
the political refugees that
are coming from there.

509
00:32:41,259 --> 00:32:43,799
They’re coming now also
from Hungary and Poland.

510
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:48,519
People who have really been
oppressed and really experienced

511
00:32:48,529 --> 00:32:51,609
a lot of harassment from the
hands of their governments.

512
00:32:51,609 --> 00:32:56,560
And so we need to be also clear
that the more crypto that we use,

513
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,009
the better our technical
security systems get,

514
00:32:59,009 --> 00:33:01,539
the more classic the intelligence
agencies will get as well,

515
00:33:01,539 --> 00:33:03,699
that means more informants.

516
00:33:03,699 --> 00:33:07,889
And so we need to figure out ways to

517
00:33:07,889 --> 00:33:11,089
sort the needlessly paranoid and
slightly crazy people from the people

518
00:33:11,089 --> 00:33:17,229
who really have a problem with
oppression and being followed around.

519
00:33:17,229 --> 00:33:20,729
So informants are tools of power.

520
00:33:20,729 --> 00:33:26,090
We need to talk about the power
structures that are using them.

521
00:33:26,090 --> 00:33:31,350
So if you look at the larger picture,
we have basically 3 major models

522
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:35,320
of society that we have
on this planet today.

523
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:41,859
It’s more the US
Ayn Rand ultra-individualistic

524
00:33:41,859 --> 00:33:47,059
surveillance state system, that says
that everything that you can do

525
00:33:47,059 --> 00:33:50,579
for yourself is good for you and
the state surveils everybody else

526
00:33:50,579 --> 00:33:54,590
so stuff stays within
the prescribed limits.

527
00:33:54,590 --> 00:34:00,880
Then we have the Chinese model of the
harmonic society, that essentially says:

528
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,320
When we can keep this 100 000 people
happy, it’s okay to kill this 1000 people.

529
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,720
And is... yeah... another way of saying

530
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:15,159
utilitaristic usage of power is justified.

531
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:19,049
And then we have the European
model, that is more on a traditional

532
00:34:19,049 --> 00:34:20,719
of enlightenment, of individualism,

533
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,399
of balancing out state power
and economic power.

534
00:34:24,399 --> 00:34:28,069
But none of these models is
really superior against the other

535
00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:30,409
because all of them are deeply corrupt.

536
00:34:30,409 --> 00:34:35,650
So all of them have been corrupted
by various interests

537
00:34:35,650 --> 00:34:41,200
and if we can not solve the corruption
of the political process,

538
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,049
then all these models kind of converge.

539
00:34:44,049 --> 00:34:48,049
So it doesn’t really matter any more,
if you are living under a Chinese

540
00:34:48,049 --> 00:34:50,399
surveillance state or
a US surveillance state.

541
00:34:50,399 --> 00:34:54,170
Maybe you can watch better
pornography in one than in the other,

542
00:34:54,170 --> 00:34:56,320
but that’s about probably it.

543
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,850
And so... and if we can not get
this corruption out of the systems,

544
00:35:01,850 --> 00:35:05,250
regardless under what systems we live,

545
00:35:05,250 --> 00:35:11,450
then the problems will not go away.

546
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:15,379
Yeah, we should understand that
surveillance, ubiquitous surveillance

547
00:35:15,379 --> 00:35:18,799
means that we have less and
less small scale corruption.

548
00:35:18,799 --> 00:35:21,510
So basically small briberies
to get your passport faster,

549
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:23,940
or to get the building permit done,

550
00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:28,100
but surveillance means that the
corruption needs to be large scale.

551
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:32,079
That’s the billions, not the
hundreds of Dollars or Euros

552
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:37,250
that you’re talking about. That means...
the surveillance state means that

553
00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:41,689
larger and larger interests are at
play and that these are the ones

554
00:35:41,689 --> 00:35:45,520
that are dominating the state.
And these are harder and harder to fight.

555
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,344
So fighting the small corruption of a
corrupt official in your hometown

556
00:35:49,344 --> 00:35:50,974
is doable.

557
00:35:50,974 --> 00:35:57,784
Fighting a large multi billion dollar
weapons manufacturer

558
00:35:57,784 --> 00:36:01,569
is becoming slightly more complicated.

559
00:36:01,569 --> 00:36:07,710
So, we have tried to... to visualize

560
00:36:07,710 --> 00:36:11,400
the situation somewhat.

561
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:17,339
So we have this graph where we have

562
00:36:17,339 --> 00:36:20,099
on the one axis liberty,
democracy, civilization,

563
00:36:20,099 --> 00:36:22,210
on the other one we have time.

564
00:36:22,210 --> 00:36:25,129
And we... what we want...

565
00:36:25,129 --> 00:36:29,180
Rop: Don’t kill yourself just yet!
There’s more positive messages out there.

566
00:36:29,180 --> 00:36:31,700
Frank: Yes!
<i>is laughing</i>

567
00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:36,890
So what we don’t know is how
long will it be till rock bottom,

568
00:36:36,890 --> 00:36:40,799
we don’t know what will be coming later,

569
00:36:40,799 --> 00:36:43,980
so if it will go down further
or will go up at some point

570
00:36:43,980 --> 00:36:47,340
and we also don’t know
how deep the valley will be.

571
00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:50,350
So but, what is pretty sure,

572
00:36:50,350 --> 00:36:55,710
is that stuff will not be
really rosy for a while.

573
00:36:55,710 --> 00:37:01,100
So if you look at the tendencies in the
world that we have briefly discussed now,

574
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:04,730
it doesn’t really...
it’s not really possible to say:

575
00:37:04,730 --> 00:37:09,249
“Okay, revolution next week,
things will be good again.”

576
00:37:09,249 --> 00:37:10,779
So this would be just a lie.

577
00:37:10,779 --> 00:37:15,410
So we need to understand,
that the next decades

578
00:37:15,410 --> 00:37:19,509
will be more greyish than
beautiful, in that sense.

579
00:37:19,509 --> 00:37:20,999
So there will be lots of §$%&.

580
00:37:20,999 --> 00:37:27,210
But, that doesn’t mean, that they can
not be good fulfilling decades for us.

581
00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:30,489
That doesn’t mean that we need
to be depressed about it.

582
00:37:30,489 --> 00:37:33,990
It’s just the world that we live in
and the world we live in we can

583
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:39,210
change to a certain extent
but not by wishful thinking.

584
00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:46,209
Rop: Yeah!
<i>applause</i>

585
00:37:47,959 --> 00:37:50,880
So let’s look at a few trends.

586
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:56,710
Terrorism is now the main reason why we
need to be discarding basic civil rights.

587
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:59,420
But I remember being a child in the 1970s

588
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:02,400
and my parents tuning into
the morning broadcast to hear

589
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,920
whether the hostages in the train or the
hostages in the school in Holland...

590
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:12,209
there was a conflict with Moluccans

591
00:38:12,209 --> 00:38:15,310
wanting there own state and they took
hostages and they were threatening

592
00:38:15,310 --> 00:38:18,280
to shoot them.
Conflicts lasted for weeks.

593
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,170
Many more people died
of terrorism in Europe

594
00:38:21,170 --> 00:38:26,319
in the 1960s and 70s than they did in the
80s and 90s and onward.

595
00:38:26,319 --> 00:38:30,200
But nobody spoke about
discarding basic civil rights.

596
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,330
Why? Because it was simply too expensive.
I think we can say that now.

597
00:38:33,330 --> 00:38:37,870
Because in that time it was seen as
ridiculous for the East German state

598
00:38:37,870 --> 00:38:41,599
to want to know who sent mail to
who or to open all these envelopes.

599
00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:44,160
That was seen as
typical things that only

600
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,210
a police state would ever
contemplate on doing.

601
00:38:47,210 --> 00:38:50,770
All of these things are being implemented
now. Why? Because it’s cheap enough!

602
00:38:50,770 --> 00:38:55,630
This was all cost driven,
not danger driven!

603
00:38:55,630 --> 00:39:01,779
<i>applause</i>

604
00:39:01,779 --> 00:39:07,089
And we can see long term strategies.
We can see strategies that span decades,

605
00:39:07,089 --> 00:39:11,750
the treaties, the internationally
harmonised legislation,

606
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:17,820
ACTA, CESA, cybercrime treaties,
TTIP... what not... what not... etc. etc.

607
00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:19,820
They used to cement the
economic status quo,

608
00:39:19,820 --> 00:39:23,169
or they used to increase
surveillance and repression.

609
00:39:23,169 --> 00:39:26,550
And it’s like they figured out the
strategy. There is now a treaty train

610
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:32,140
leaving every year or two years and
it’s to wear down the activists.

611
00:39:32,140 --> 00:39:34,780
Everything that the activists
managed to get off the train

612
00:39:34,780 --> 00:39:36,559
is just put on the next train.

613
00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:39,719
See if you can mobilise the same things,

614
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,349
the same level of
activism two years later.

615
00:39:42,349 --> 00:39:45,210
How often do we need to
mobilise the same fight

616
00:39:45,210 --> 00:39:49,930
to fight the same damn
unconstitutional laws?

617
00:39:49,930 --> 00:39:53,680
There is very necessary
activism that is... always

618
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,850
has this “Act now to stop this
evil law from coming into effect.”

619
00:39:57,850 --> 00:40:00,349
It’s very important! It needs to happen.

620
00:40:00,349 --> 00:40:04,710
But it may not be enough. We don’t have
ready-to-go answers; maybe, there is a few

621
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:10,400
ideas we have, and other people have,
but we need clever and funny strategies.

622
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,750
Because I’m often called a pessimist and

623
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:15,950
“Oh my god it’s all doom and gloom.”

624
00:40:15,950 --> 00:40:20,500
But a lot of what’s going on in the world
right now is actually very funny.

625
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:23,510
It’s funny in a very dark way.
It’s a very dark humour.

626
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:27,360
But you can not look at this world
and go “Oh my god, this is...”.

627
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,770
It’s so stereotypical. And we
have to make people see this.

628
00:40:31,770 --> 00:40:34,540
We have to be the clowns.
We have to make people see this.

629
00:40:34,540 --> 00:40:36,420
If the Interior Minister says:

630
00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:40,749
“Well, parts of my answer would
make the population insecure.”

631
00:40:40,749 --> 00:40:46,880
<i>laughing, applause</i>

632
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,300
...that deserves roaring laughter
from the entire population,

633
00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:54,260
‘cause it’s the only thing that will work.

634
00:40:54,260 --> 00:40:59,540
<i>applause</i>

635
00:40:59,540 --> 00:41:03,509
But what we also need is, we
need to dare to dream ahead.

636
00:41:03,509 --> 00:41:06,580
There is... A lot of strategies
in activism are incremental,

637
00:41:06,580 --> 00:41:09,969
meaning we are here, we want
to go there, so let’s chop this up

638
00:41:09,969 --> 00:41:13,140
into 10 little pieces and then
start working on the first two.

639
00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:15,970
Whereas in reality we are not
here, because there is so much

640
00:41:15,970 --> 00:41:18,220
chaos going on. There are
so many events happening,

641
00:41:18,220 --> 00:41:21,590
that we are actually all
over the place all the time.

642
00:41:21,590 --> 00:41:25,749
So we need to build strategies that
assume that we are not in the place,

643
00:41:25,749 --> 00:41:29,789
where we are in today. But we assume
we are somewhere completely different.

644
00:41:29,789 --> 00:41:32,050
And sometimes we win.

645
00:41:32,050 --> 00:41:35,860
We have very few strategies
for when people we like

646
00:41:35,860 --> 00:41:39,540
or people who’s ideas we agree with
actually get to power.

647
00:41:39,540 --> 00:41:42,170
Do we know what laws we
would like to have repealed?

648
00:41:42,170 --> 00:41:44,359
What new laws would
we like to have passed?

649
00:41:44,359 --> 00:41:47,109
Have we maybe taken the time
to write these laws already?

650
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:49,990
Even though they are ridiculous today?

651
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:53,099
Is there an Anti-Patriot-Act?
Is there an... ?

652
00:41:53,099 --> 00:41:55,570
We’ve tried to work on
a few of these things.

653
00:41:55,570 --> 00:41:58,139
I’ve been personally a part
of thinking about IMMI,

654
00:41:58,139 --> 00:42:00,320
the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative.

655
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,860
That was an idea: can we create a
system of laws to protect publications?

656
00:42:04,860 --> 00:42:07,479
Anywhere from whistleblower protection,

657
00:42:07,479 --> 00:42:10,920
protection of journalists,
protection of publications.

658
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,880
So can we make a system of laws and
can we figure out how they would all

659
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,220
work together to protect publications
in one country and then

660
00:42:17,220 --> 00:42:21,560
through sort of a spreading effect
make that go to other countries.

661
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,240
We need to... we need
to dare to think ahead!

662
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:30,030
And to not just always react and
always be driven into this little corner,

663
00:42:30,030 --> 00:42:32,700
which we have to fight a way out of.

664
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:36,260
In many countries discontent with the
powers that be, with the way things are,

665
00:42:36,260 --> 00:42:40,960
is growing. In some countries that
leads to left wing movements

666
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,579
growing or getting...
even getting to power.

667
00:42:43,579 --> 00:42:47,870
There’s things going on in Portugal,
in Spain, in the UK,

668
00:42:47,870 --> 00:42:52,250
where Corbyn is now
leading the Labour Party.

669
00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:55,780
In other countries and powers those
that challenge the status quo

670
00:42:55,780 --> 00:42:59,420
or say they challenge the status quo

671
00:42:59,420 --> 00:43:04,610
with even more fear and anti-immigrant
sentiments and policies.

672
00:43:04,610 --> 00:43:08,690
And in the US interestingly we
see both trends happening,

673
00:43:08,690 --> 00:43:12,260
but in an increasingly bizarre
corporate media landscape.

674
00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:16,139
So there’s all these things happening.

675
00:43:16,139 --> 00:43:20,390
Frank: Yeah so, one of the things
that changed in the last 10 years is:

676
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:25,549
Stuff can change very, very quickly.
So stuff, situations,

677
00:43:25,549 --> 00:43:29,030
reality can change very, very fast.

678
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:32,590
For instance, let’s look
at the refugee situation.

679
00:43:32,590 --> 00:43:36,459
Just a year or two ago what has been
happening in Europe in the last month,

680
00:43:36,459 --> 00:43:39,620
would be... have been
totally unimaginable.

681
00:43:39,620 --> 00:43:44,470
And there is no security

682
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:47,139
in the rest of the herd still grazing.

683
00:43:47,139 --> 00:43:51,420
So if you see stuff is nice and
well over here in Germany,

684
00:43:51,420 --> 00:43:55,910
which is becoming more and more of an
exception in the surrounding countries,

685
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:59,770
then that doesn’t mean that stuff
can not change here very quickly.

686
00:43:59,770 --> 00:44:05,200
And this is something that we need to get
adjusted to. That the stability is gone.

687
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:10,309
So the stability, the dampness of the
system are all gone and that means that

688
00:44:10,309 --> 00:44:15,239
these sudden turns of events can
also make oppressive regimes

689
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:20,920
like in Poland or in Hungary or commonly
seen in France more powerful.

690
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:26,789
So we can not guarantee that
change is positive in every way.

691
00:44:26,789 --> 00:44:32,109
So if you look at the increased pressures

692
00:44:32,109 --> 00:44:36,719
on the population, we see that

693
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:42,160
the problems that are multiplying
from automation on the one hand;

694
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,849
on the other hand more and more people

695
00:44:44,849 --> 00:44:49,570
not having their talents valued by
the market, by the job market any more

696
00:44:49,570 --> 00:44:53,160
and the pressures that are now
coming in with the refugees

697
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:58,280
will make right wing powers
probably more powerful.

698
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,589
And the question is:
In this fight for power

699
00:45:01,589 --> 00:45:05,760
in the Western countries that will
becoming more pronounced political fights

700
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,710
how do we position ourselves?

701
00:45:07,710 --> 00:45:11,840
How does the hacking community
position itself in these fights?

702
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,320
So will we engage? Will we fight? How?

703
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,490
What is the... yeah... what is the means

704
00:45:18,490 --> 00:45:22,350
and the goals that we are aiming for?

705
00:45:22,350 --> 00:45:27,639
And the world today is uniquely
connected and complicated.

706
00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:31,490
So any solutions are going to be complex.

707
00:45:31,490 --> 00:45:33,809
That means we need
a generation of activists

708
00:45:33,809 --> 00:45:36,310
that is post-depression
about the situation

709
00:45:36,310 --> 00:45:39,800
and that doesn’t have
any fear of complexity.

710
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,320
So complexity is the new norm.

711
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,460
It’s not like things or simple solutions
will be around the corner any more.

712
00:45:47,460 --> 00:45:52,090
This time is gone forever.

713
00:45:52,090 --> 00:45:57,670
Rop: So, we did this talk in 2005
and it was, in many ways it was taboo.

714
00:45:57,670 --> 00:46:02,449
All of congress was depressed
for a while or at least

715
00:46:02,449 --> 00:46:05,480
people were walking around
with gloomy faces.

716
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:10,850
And there was then and there still is
today a myth in the progressive community,

717
00:46:10,850 --> 00:46:13,349
that a story must have a happy end.

718
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:15,910
If you want to get large groups of people

719
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:18,369
to come together and fight to make change,

720
00:46:18,369 --> 00:46:22,930
you have to present a happy end.

721
00:46:22,930 --> 00:46:26,480
And this is bullshit!

722
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:33,759
<i>applause, cheering</i>

723
00:46:33,759 --> 00:46:36,820
The problem with that message is
that you create a disconnect

724
00:46:36,820 --> 00:46:40,489
between the reality that people can see,
a reality where outcomes are gradually

725
00:46:40,489 --> 00:46:43,370
getting worse in some
fields and the world

726
00:46:43,370 --> 00:46:46,880
that they are told to believe in.

727
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,950
Everybody is hiring PR professionals

728
00:46:49,950 --> 00:46:54,549
and PR professionals are... their job
is to keep everybody consuming.

729
00:46:54,549 --> 00:46:56,470
So their job is to present happy outcomes.

730
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:58,730
Their job is to keep people
to spend their money.

731
00:46:58,730 --> 00:47:01,579
And so we tend to believe
these people, when they say:

732
00:47:01,579 --> 00:47:04,370
“Well you must have a happy outcome.

733
00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:06,890
Let’s all... Let’s tell
people that if they don’t

734
00:47:06,890 --> 00:47:10,909
buy the right light bulbs and
don’t get their electricity

735
00:47:10,909 --> 00:47:13,019
from the right provider and buy a Prius

736
00:47:13,019 --> 00:47:16,380
then they’re themselves responsible
for any bad outcomes that happen.”

737
00:47:16,380 --> 00:47:20,079
So shame everybody into believing
that the bad outcome is actually them.

738
00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:23,209
That’s a frame that we should reject.

739
00:47:23,209 --> 00:47:28,150
We’ve been warning progressive people,
that have seen things coming, about

740
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:32,700
what’s going on right now since the 1970s.
The coming of the police state, the fact

741
00:47:32,700 --> 00:47:36,790
that planetary resources are limited,
there’s limits to growth. That’s 1972.

742
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:43,790
I was 4 years old. So let’s not
fall for this kind of messaging.

743
00:47:49,630 --> 00:47:52,610
Frank: The question is then:
What is our mission?

744
00:47:52,610 --> 00:47:55,870
What is the stuff that we should aim for?

745
00:47:55,870 --> 00:47:59,240
And one thing that should
be very clear about is

746
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,200
this planet is a crime scene.

747
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,269
And this also means that...

748
00:48:04,269 --> 00:48:08,579
<i>applause</i>

749
00:48:08,579 --> 00:48:12,060
the thing to say to the people responsible
is: so for decades we have made it

750
00:48:12,060 --> 00:48:15,340
very clear that we don’t
want to live in an 1984

751
00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:18,240
environmental degraded police state.

752
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:23,079
We saw it coming but we went there anyway,
because it was short-term profitable

753
00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:26,810
and your corporate friends
were very well off with that.

754
00:48:26,810 --> 00:48:31,609
So please, now, step aside, place
your hands where we can see them

755
00:48:31,609 --> 00:48:35,520
and we will read you your rights, while we
try to mitigate the shit that you caused

756
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,169
as best as we can.

757
00:48:38,169 --> 00:48:41,279
<i>applause</i>

758
00:48:41,279 --> 00:48:46,860
So the forces that made the world
as it is today are not natural laws.

759
00:48:46,860 --> 00:48:49,609
It’s not like this greed
and this corruption

760
00:48:49,609 --> 00:48:52,250
is the native state of humanity.

761
00:48:52,250 --> 00:48:55,380
It is just what people made it to be.

762
00:48:55,380 --> 00:48:59,300
And so, the people who
did it are nameable.

763
00:48:59,300 --> 00:49:03,380
So we know that the fossil fuel industry
knew since the 70s and 80s

764
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:06,950
that they were basically
causing planetary collapse,

765
00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:09,840
that they were causing the climate

766
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,889
to go down for their corporate profits.

767
00:49:12,889 --> 00:49:16,709
And that also means that we
need to preserve the evidence.

768
00:49:16,709 --> 00:49:20,149
So we may not be yet in the position
that we can cause prosecution

769
00:49:20,149 --> 00:49:23,019
of these people, but this
time will certainly come,

770
00:49:23,019 --> 00:49:26,020
hopefully before our children
are too old for that.

771
00:49:26,020 --> 00:49:28,240
And so, we don’t need to really fight

772
00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:31,440
their silly PR efforts to still
preserve their profits.

773
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,410
So what we need to do is collect
the evidence and let them know

774
00:49:34,410 --> 00:49:38,609
that we collect the evidence and
that we will use it some time.

775
00:49:38,609 --> 00:49:46,180
<i>applause</i>

776
00:49:46,180 --> 00:49:50,319
So in the 80s we thought
that all change is good.

777
00:49:50,319 --> 00:49:53,430
So because the world was
kind of frozen in place so that

778
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:56,399
especially in our fields, in technology
and telecommunications,

779
00:49:56,399 --> 00:49:59,640
we thought that all change is good,

780
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,890
but now we need to remind ourselves
that not all change is bad.

781
00:50:03,890 --> 00:50:07,040
So because when we are in a world that we

782
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:12,540
think that may not be getting
much better soonish,

783
00:50:12,540 --> 00:50:15,400
the sudden impulse would be to revert to

784
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,850
conservatism saying
are we try to cliiing to

785
00:50:17,850 --> 00:50:21,289
the status quo and not try
to have too much change,

786
00:50:21,289 --> 00:50:25,309
but this would be wrong, because
change can also be for the better.

787
00:50:25,309 --> 00:50:30,170
So this absence of
stability is the new norm.

788
00:50:30,170 --> 00:50:35,320
We need to live with that. And we need
to work for making positive change,

789
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,689
because change itself
can no longer be averted.

790
00:50:39,689 --> 00:50:43,810
Rop: Yeah, we need to define missions
for ourselves and argue for them

791
00:50:43,810 --> 00:50:48,760
to be worthwhile, personally as well as
in the bigger picture.

792
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,789
Picture a world were... yes, some
outcomes may be negative

793
00:50:52,789 --> 00:50:56,790
or things may be getting worse, but
you can do meaningful stuff in the

794
00:50:56,790 --> 00:51:01,080
life-saving, democracy-rescuing,
world-changing sense of the word.

795
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:07,060
No fake utopian outcomes,
no lies to tell people,

796
00:51:07,060 --> 00:51:10,949
but still very positive at the personal
level for each and everyone of us.

797
00:51:10,949 --> 00:51:13,809
The sense of belonging to a
community like the one we have,

798
00:51:13,809 --> 00:51:17,269
but other communities as well,
is going to become more important.

799
00:51:17,269 --> 00:51:20,000
In difficult times people
will come together.

800
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,840
There’s great happiness in the sense
of purpose to be found in caring

801
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,329
for your friends, sharing
knowledge and experience.

802
00:51:26,329 --> 00:51:30,050
Especially if things
get a little bit hairy.

803
00:51:30,050 --> 00:51:33,190
And even if we end up
in a bad possible future,

804
00:51:33,190 --> 00:51:36,990
if things degrade, if
infrastructure starts to fail,

805
00:51:36,990 --> 00:51:42,480
even if that happens, the hacker
mindset is – I’ve said this before –

806
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,089
is a post-apocalyptically 
appropriate way of thinking.

807
00:51:47,089 --> 00:51:50,719
Wouldn’t you run to your hackerspace,

808
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,569
if things really went wrong?

809
00:51:52,569 --> 00:51:57,469
Wouldn’t it... if the world
went down in chaos,

810
00:51:57,469 --> 00:52:00,970
I would really want it to happen somewhere
at the end of December, because

811
00:52:00,970 --> 00:52:05,440
you all would be the people
I would want to be around.

812
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:12,440
<i>applause</i>

813
00:52:14,370 --> 00:52:19,279
I would like to think of this
community as having a role,

814
00:52:19,279 --> 00:52:21,270
when things go wrong.

815
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:25,419
And many of us have taken on these roles.

816
00:52:25,419 --> 00:52:31,009
I was travelling to some of
the Eastern European countries

817
00:52:31,009 --> 00:52:36,319
to Serbia, to Croatia to see
some of the refugee situations

818
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:38,989
with my own eyes.

819
00:52:38,989 --> 00:52:41,690
And I think many more
of us need to be there.

820
00:52:41,690 --> 00:52:46,010
There can’t be just one guy from Zagreb
running around with wireless modems

821
00:52:46,010 --> 00:52:48,509
to try to connect all the
people that are trying

822
00:52:48,509 --> 00:52:50,900
to help there and try to
disseminate information.

823
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:55,830
Many more of us need
to be in these situations.

824
00:52:55,830 --> 00:53:02,830
<i>applause</i>

825
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:07,279
Frank: And so, we have been following

826
00:53:07,279 --> 00:53:11,370
the strategy of enlarging our cultural,

827
00:53:11,370 --> 00:53:15,860
or culture, the hacking culture
over the last many years.

828
00:53:15,860 --> 00:53:19,409
You probably noticed that from...
I don’t know, if you look back at

829
00:53:19,409 --> 00:53:24,430
the Eidelstedter Bürgerhaus, the
congress was still looking a bit drab,

830
00:53:24,430 --> 00:53:29,959
whereas now we have an... artists and
people from the various cultural domains

831
00:53:29,959 --> 00:53:34,980
as an integrated part of our
community, of our culture.

832
00:53:34,980 --> 00:53:38,630
And this is essentially
what we need to do.

833
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:41,789
So if you look at the last,
back at the last 10 years

834
00:53:41,789 --> 00:53:46,180
the stuff that was made working

835
00:53:46,180 --> 00:53:48,490
is the alliance between the hackers,

836
00:53:48,490 --> 00:53:52,140
the journalists, investigative
journalists, and the artists.

837
00:53:52,140 --> 00:53:55,680
So this is something that is working
now. This is a big achievement.

838
00:53:55,680 --> 00:54:02,529
So that we can say: This is something
where we managed to grow our culture,

839
00:54:02,529 --> 00:54:08,369
so growing from a couple 100 people in
some old community building in Hamburg,

840
00:54:08,369 --> 00:54:12,429
now we’re having 12 000 people and could
be 15 000 if this house would house us.

841
00:54:12,429 --> 00:54:14,820
This is a big change.

842
00:54:14,820 --> 00:54:18,809
And this is also something
we can be proud of.

843
00:54:18,809 --> 00:54:25,810
<i>applause</i>

844
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,700
So if we want to form further alliances,

845
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:33,910
so we need to... in order to succeed

846
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:37,559
we need to actively stop
the trend that people are

847
00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:40,040
choosing minor bickering fights.

848
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:45,109
That they are more interested in
fighting the heretics in their own ranks,

849
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:48,959
in the people who are not
using the words that they like

850
00:54:48,959 --> 00:54:52,529
or that are finding
different stuff important.

851
00:54:52,529 --> 00:54:55,599
So we’re all having more
or less the same goals

852
00:54:55,599 --> 00:54:58,240
this is basically what makes us a culture,

853
00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:00,889
is that we’re having the same ideas about

854
00:55:00,889 --> 00:55:03,720
the general structure of
society how it should be,

855
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:06,039
the same ideas how people should interact

856
00:55:06,039 --> 00:55:08,699
and the rights of the individuum.

857
00:55:08,699 --> 00:55:13,140
And we should actively try
to stop fighting each other.

858
00:55:13,140 --> 00:55:18,340
So we are not each other’s enemy.

859
00:55:18,340 --> 00:55:25,340
<i>applause</i>

860
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,339
The enemy is something different.

861
00:55:30,339 --> 00:55:35,510
So we have seen quite a number of people

862
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:41,139
who tried to

863
00:55:41,139 --> 00:55:42,439
find the heretics

864
00:55:42,439 --> 00:55:46,749
as their main goal in life,
as their enemy in life

865
00:55:46,749 --> 00:55:52,620
and ended up in finding
no real purpose any more.

866
00:55:52,620 --> 00:55:56,849
Because when they
solved this one “problem”,

867
00:55:56,849 --> 00:56:00,440
they still ended up with having
not solved the bigger problem.

868
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,910
And we have seen the same thing happening

869
00:56:02,910 --> 00:56:06,140
for more and more smaller issues like

870
00:56:06,140 --> 00:56:09,610
animal rights, people finding out okay...

871
00:56:09,610 --> 00:56:14,300
or human environment
people not finding solutions,

872
00:56:14,300 --> 00:56:18,329
that they can really bring forward,
because the problems are bigger than

873
00:56:18,329 --> 00:56:22,750
their individual... and smaller
problems that they’re trying to fight.

874
00:56:22,750 --> 00:56:27,310
So we need to look at the bigger picture.
And this is essentially the problem

875
00:56:27,310 --> 00:56:30,949
that we need to solve as
a community, as a culture

876
00:56:30,949 --> 00:56:34,389
to keep focused on the bigger
picture and not trying to fight

877
00:56:34,389 --> 00:56:38,570
our little wars among each other.

878
00:56:38,570 --> 00:56:41,860
What editor is the best?
What Linux distribution is the best?

879
00:56:41,860 --> 00:56:46,270
What programming language is the best?
What way of gendering is the best?

880
00:56:46,270 --> 00:56:50,850
So these are meaningless fights. This is
nothing worth spending your energy on.

881
00:56:50,850 --> 00:56:57,850
<i>applause</i>

882
00:57:05,150 --> 00:57:08,979
So, ...

883
00:57:11,509 --> 00:57:15,610
Rop: We need to be aware
that there are money aspects

884
00:57:15,610 --> 00:57:19,179
and social economic
tensions within our culture.

885
00:57:19,179 --> 00:57:22,470
Things are different than
they were 20, 30 years ago

886
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:25,959
because the economy of
our subculture has changed,

887
00:57:25,959 --> 00:57:30,300
because our community is
much wider and broader.

888
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:33,330
Many younger people do not
have the kind of stability,

889
00:57:33,330 --> 00:57:36,369
that many of the now older
people in this crowd have.

890
00:57:36,369 --> 00:57:40,409
Hardcore hardware and software hackers
that have established themselves usually

891
00:57:40,409 --> 00:57:45,300
do not have a problem making a living in
today’s project oriented job economy.

892
00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:48,890
But many who came to our cultural
space in the last years are designers,

893
00:57:48,890 --> 00:57:53,799
they’re artists. They’re
from other adjacent fields.

894
00:57:53,799 --> 00:57:57,290
They’re living more and
more precariously, because

895
00:57:57,290 --> 00:58:01,860
their competition in their fields is much
more fierce. We need to take care of this

896
00:58:01,860 --> 00:58:05,280
at least where we can to keep our
community economically accessible.

897
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:06,690
<i>applause</i>

898
00:58:06,690 --> 00:58:12,320
That means...
<i>applause</i>

899
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,030
...we encourage various forms of economic
cooperation to make sources of income

900
00:58:16,030 --> 00:58:19,499
more widely accessible.

901
00:58:19,499 --> 00:58:24,280
Hackerspaces are not just the new
universities, they’re also the new co-ops.

902
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:29,279
That means solidarity between people
of different skill sets and talents.

903
00:58:29,279 --> 00:58:32,560
And we need to grow the economic
footprint of this community,

904
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,999
applying more of our thinking
and our skills to problems outside of

905
00:58:35,999 --> 00:58:39,250
the core field of IT: agriculture,


906
00:58:39,250 --> 00:58:43,720
energy, transportation. In essence,
let there not be an interesting field

907
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:48,540
out there that does not have a
hackerspace dedicated to it.

908
00:58:48,540 --> 00:58:55,149
<i>applause</i>

909
00:58:55,149 --> 00:58:58,609
Frank: So, in closing:

910
00:58:58,609 --> 00:59:02,589
we are headed for some very rough times.

911
00:59:02,589 --> 00:59:06,909
That’s undeniable but it doesn’t mean
that we can not have a lot of fun on that.

912
00:59:06,909 --> 00:59:10,550
So we know, the surf is good
when the waves are getting bigger.

913
00:59:10,550 --> 00:59:18,550
And...
<i>applause</i>

914
00:59:18,550 --> 00:59:21,320
and sometimes in many places just keeping

915
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:26,030
the ideas of political freedom
alive is a political act.

916
00:59:26,030 --> 00:59:29,619
So basically our mission is
to keep the torch burning,

917
00:59:29,619 --> 00:59:34,710
so to keep the ideas of freedom,
of individual rights,

918
00:59:34,710 --> 00:59:39,259
of a society that’s transparent
and just alive.

919
00:59:39,259 --> 00:59:41,930
Our community is uniquely
positioned to do that.

920
00:59:41,930 --> 00:59:45,480
We can build the tools
to make the activists

921
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:50,499
and political activists capable
of still effecting change.

922
00:59:50,499 --> 00:59:53,529
We are the ones who can develop
new forms of communications.

923
00:59:53,529 --> 00:59:56,469
If you look at this whole
podcast universe for instance,

924
00:59:56,469 --> 00:59:59,199
that was essentially
created in our community

925
00:59:59,199 --> 01:00:01,890
and that is reaching many more people now

926
01:00:01,890 --> 01:00:06,430
with political education than
common forms have been before.

927
01:00:06,430 --> 01:00:09,240
Or if you look at just the
open-source movements

928
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,530
that are more as running our planet now.

929
01:00:11,530 --> 01:00:14,219
So we are the people who are responsible

930
01:00:14,219 --> 01:00:17,019
to a large extent for
effecting a better outcome.

931
01:00:17,019 --> 01:00:21,009
And this is something that we
need to take responsibility for.

932
01:00:21,009 --> 01:00:24,300
Rop: So in closing really: No!

933
01:00:24,300 --> 01:00:30,330
There will probably not be a revolution
magically manifesting itself next Friday.

934
01:00:30,330 --> 01:00:34,430
Probably also no Zombie Apocalypse.
But still we need to be ready

935
01:00:34,430 --> 01:00:38,670
for rapid and sizeable
changes of all sorts of kinds.

936
01:00:38,670 --> 01:00:43,390
And the only way to be effective in this
and probably that’s our mission

937
01:00:43,390 --> 01:00:47,700
as a community is to play for the long
term, develop a culture that is more fun

938
01:00:47,700 --> 01:00:51,520
and more attractive to more people,
develop infrastructure and turn around

939
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,210
and offer that infrastructure
to people that need it.

940
01:00:54,210 --> 01:00:56,840
This is not a thing we do as
a hobby so much any more.

941
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:01,049
It’s also something we do for people
that need this infrastructure.

942
01:01:01,049 --> 01:01:05,589
Create a culture that’s capable of putting
up a fight, that gives its inhabitants

943
01:01:05,589 --> 01:01:09,869
a sense of purpose, so forth,
usefulness and enlarge that culture

944
01:01:09,869 --> 01:01:13,770
over time, until it becomes a viable
alternative to the status quo.

945
01:01:13,770 --> 01:01:15,390
I guess that was it.

946
01:01:15,390 --> 01:01:17,010
Frank: Thank you!
Rop: Thank you!

947
01:01:17,010 --> 01:01:22,239
<i>applause</i>

948
01:01:22,239 --> 01:01:29,459
<i>postroll music</i>

949
01:01:29,459 --> 01:01:32,789
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