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preroll music
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Herald: Our next talk
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is going to provide a[br]bit of introspection.
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“We lost the war” has been the name
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of a talk also by Rop and Frank
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at the congress 10 years ago.
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And this is basically the[br]updated version of that talk.
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Over the next hour, we’ll hear about[br]the past and current events as well
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and the bold prediction[br]for the future, I hear.
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So please give a warm[br]welcome to Rop and Frank!
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applause
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Frank: Thank you for being here![br]Let’s start with a very quick question:
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Who has seen, either[br]in person, or on video,
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our talk from 10 years ago?
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And who has read the[br]text that belongs to it?
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chuckles
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Ok, thank you!
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So, 10 years ago, at the congress,[br]we felt that we needed to talk about
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the state of the world, about what[br]the state of the hacker community is.
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Rop and me are coming from[br]quite different backgrounds.
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Rop is from Netherlands, [br]I’m from East Germany,
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so we have both our perspectives[br]on the hacker culture
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and the position of the hacker[br]culture in our world, but we share
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a rather common way of analysing[br]stuff and analysing the world.
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So, the talk back then depressed[br]the hell out of a lot of people
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because it was just four years after 9/11
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and people were not really[br]ready to accept that
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things are probably not[br]gonna be really good and nice
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in the near future.
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And so, the press had quite a[br]number of things to say;
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most of them circled around the cover[br]of the “Datenschleuder” back then
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where the text was published[br]that belonged to the talk.
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“Hackers raising the white flag”,[br]“Hackers giving up”, in this way.
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Which was not really what[br]we intended, actually.
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Because we actually wanted to just say:
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“Ok, reality is not looking too bright,
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but that doesn’t mean[br]we need to be depressed.”
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And this is somewhat what[br]we’re trying this year again.
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chuckles
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So, one of the critics[br]that we had in this talk
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was that we used the term “they”[br]a little bit too losely.
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“They” meaning[br]“the others, the enemies”.
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So, we just want to clarify up-front
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that we don’t really believe[br]in large conspiracies.
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The world is too complex[br]for large conspiracies.
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There is no world government[br]that does all these things;
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it’s not like the Illuminati are sitting[br]somewhere with the Gnomes of Zurich
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and doing this stuff, but
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it’s also not like freedom and[br]liberty don’t have enemies!
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As probably, many of you[br]have seen the talk about
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the people who got incarcerated[br]in Guantanamo,
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there are people out there[br]who really don’t believe
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in freedom and democracy and they[br]are plenty, and they are powerful.
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And this is what we meant with “they”.
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chuckles
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In that sense.
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Rop: The other criticism that we got is[br]that you can’t really speak of a war,
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upholding civil liberties, upholding[br]democracy is a perpetual fight.
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You have to continuously fight,[br]there is no winning, there is no losing,
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there is just this continuous struggle.
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Which is of course true![br]That criticism is completely right.
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But we argued and continue to argue
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that there are certain things that are so[br]much easier to prevent than to undo
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and that the introduction of[br]ubiquitous general surveillance,
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recording of everything,[br]is one of these things
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that grows power structures[br]which are incredibly hard to get rid of
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and it’s so much better to prevent.
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And that’s probably part of[br]a class of events
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of turnings that are better to prevent
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than to have happened.
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The drone war is the beginning[br]of the perpetual undeclared war
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fought by robots.
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There’s something fundamentally[br]that changed
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when the West, when America[br]introduced a system
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of black sites and torture happening[br]all over the world;
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prisons without any accountability[br]where people can be locked up for a decade
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without any trial, without anything.
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And of course climate change[br]brings possible tipping points,
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maybe behind us, maybe still ahead of us.
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So these are all events where,[br]yes, you can speak of war
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or at least of major battles,[br]and of winnings and losses, in that sense.
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Frank: So, essentially, what we said was:
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“We lost the war when 9/11 happened.”
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And that was the war for taking[br]the direct route to a positive utopia
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to a utopia that is not from the[br]dystopian novels and computer games
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but is going straight to, yeah, the[br]positive world outcome. We lost that war.
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And, if we look back, 10 years later,
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very few people will probably[br]dispute this finding.
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So when we look quickly back[br]at the predictions that we made
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we were mostly right.[br]So the economy tanked 3 years later
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because the brittle system[br]of banking nearly collapsed
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and was just by hair breadth rescued
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by means that really nobody[br]understands anymore.
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So the one thing that we were[br]wrong about so far is the price of oil
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that, miraculously, currently is very low.
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But still nobody really understands[br]why this is truly the case.
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It is utterly bizarre.
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So, democracy, if you look at[br]what has happened to democracy
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in the Western societies
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it is hard to argue that [br]democracy has made large progress.
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On the contrary, what we see is,
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that in many countries[br]democracy is on the way out,
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is no longer the preferred[br]system of government for many people.
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The security state, we can see it[br]in our everyday lives, it is encroaching.
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Meanwhile, you need to[br]pass security check gates
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when you want to board[br]a train in several countries.
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Ubiquitous surveillance is there.[br]We have data retention.
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So the security state is[br]making large progress.
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What we said back then, about[br]climate and the refugees,
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has largely been vindicated.
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If you look at the weather[br]patterns that we have:
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Today even in Reykjavik, they have now[br]a storm with over 300 km/h
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that is coming in there.
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We don’t have winter anymore in Germany,
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so it is becoming kind of obvious
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that the climate is not right anymore.
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And the refugees that are being[br]caused by this climate change
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are around the corner.
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So, another thing that[br]we were talking about
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was surveillance and whistleblowers,
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and the need for that, we come[br]a little bit later to that.
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Rop: This talk is not going[br]to be as depressing as the one in 2005,
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not because the subject[br]matter is less depressing
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or has become better all of a sudden
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but because more people are used to[br]the world being the way it is.
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There’s no longer... we no longer need[br]to shock an audience into a world we see,
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that is completely different from[br]the world that most people perceive.
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And the goal for this talk is to get[br]a large group of mostly very smart people
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– being you and whoever watches this –
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to be as happy and as politically[br]productive as possible
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in an environment that is still[br]going to be increasingly dystopian.
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And when we talk about[br]a dystopian environment
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the most important issue that is pressing,[br]immediate, and involves all of humanity,
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is, of course, climate change.
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F: So what we see is not so much
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a direct global warming but a[br]“global weirding”.
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That means, that the weather patterns[br]are shifting. The Hadley Cells, which is
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the way the water goes up and where[br]the water goes down, are shifting.
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That means that the livelyhoods of many[br]people who are depending on agriculture
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are threatened. And we don’t know
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where these patterns will be moving.
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The one thing that we can see[br]is that future generations
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will look back at us as the guilty party.
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We are the people, in their eyes,[br]in the eyes of our children,
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we and our parents were the people [br]who basically fucked up the planet,
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probably beyond repair.
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applause
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And the one thing that we[br]would like to call you on
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is taking this responsibility.
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So, what we see now with the[br]Syrian war is just the beginning.
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It is just the early wars
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that have a strong climate component
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that we can see in many more[br]conflicts that are rising.
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So most of the Arab spring had[br]a large component of food riots,
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of food prices going up,
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which was certainly to a large[br]extent also speculation,
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but also draught, meaning lack of[br]water in large parts of the world.
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And there will be many more.
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So there is no real way to[br]escape this reality any more.
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Rop: This planet is largely a crime scene.
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The fossil fuel industry,[br]who have known about this
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since the 1970s,
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needs to be killed or needs to be...[br]their bottom line
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needs to be hurt significantly[br]because a lot of the carbon that
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they’re currently getting out of the Earth[br]needs to stay there and not be burned.
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The technology to change our energy[br]infrastructure is already there,
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solar is already profitable or[br]near profitable in a lot of places,
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and we need to fight conflicts that are
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going to have components[br]in fighting in courts,
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they have components in fighting[br]in demonstrations in the streets,
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we need to take charge of these issues.
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If you look at what’s currently happening[br]with the fossil fuel industry,
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it’s a lot like the tobacco industry.
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If you have known for so[br]long that this was going on,
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and you have prevented[br]the correct policy response
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by hiding the science,[br]by muddling the image,
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then you have responsibility, and
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if there is damage,[br]you are culpable for that.
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Also techno-optimism is[br]a problem in our circles.
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Many people think: “Well, we screwed up[br]this planet maybe, but we have spacecraft,
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we can go to other planets,[br]there’s other worlds!”
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That doesn’t work. There are no[br]habitable planets in our reach
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and there won’t be[br]for generations to come.
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So no matter how bad[br]things may get on Earth,
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it’s still not going to be anywhere near[br]as inhospitable, on a bad day,
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as it will be on Mars[br]on the best possible day.
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See? That’s a positive message, huh?
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laughter
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applause
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Frank: Yeah, I mean, the core[br]of the hacker culture is:
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breaking stuff, fixing things.
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And this planet, if you can say so,[br]is our spaceship,
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and it really needs fixing.
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And so this is something that we see
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that the hacker community[br]or hacking community
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can do much more.
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And if you look at [from] where[br]the refugees are coming
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and for what reasons they are coming,
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we see that there is a lot of regions that
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will become hard to live in
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so either because there is[br]too much water, there’s too little water,
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the ground turns into swamps,
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and so these countries will[br]be massively struggling
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with how to feed their population,[br]how to give them space to live,
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and there’s a lot of stuff to do,
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for technological minded people with[br]organisational capabilities
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like our community is,[br]to help these people.
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And to prevent also the dystopian[br]streak that governments
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usually take on when they[br]are in emergency situations.
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If you look at the larger refugee camps,
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that is a massively dystopian set-up.
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So people are wearing wristbands to[br]register at every checkpoint,
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they are limited in their[br]range of movement,
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they are just barely fed and[br]housed and that’s about it.
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And that means that a world that[br]is in constant emergency mode
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has a really hard time[br]to be a democratic society.
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But on top of that, the West,[br]the Western countries,
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but increasingly also China,[br]and the other upcoming
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larger powers, have their[br]hands in pushing countries
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into chaos, so we have seen now[br]a large sequence of things
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that end up with Syria and Libya,
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where under the disguise of[br]bringing forward democracy
0:13:54.880,0:13:58.690
with drones, countries are[br]essentially pushed into chaos.
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Because no one took responsibility of
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setting up structures,[br]setting up stability,
0:14:03.119,0:14:05.249
making sure that the people there
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actually end up not in[br]a much worse situation
0:14:08.119,0:14:10.009
than they have been in before.
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And so the human rights[br]and the managing of
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migration is in direct conflict[br]with the economic interest
0:14:22.089,0:14:25.039
of the arms industry. If we look at
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who is selling these[br]arms it’s mostly Western
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countries and Russia. And we are[br]selling these arms to countries
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like Saudi Arabia which will be the next
0:14:32.760,0:14:37.629
large conflict zone. And which[br]don’t have any democratic control.
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And we just do that under the disguise of
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providing stability to regions.
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And while bombing[br]countries into democracy
0:14:45.589,0:14:49.350
fortunately has become very much unpopular
0:14:49.350,0:14:52.589
this is also why the arms[br]industry is pushing so much
0:14:52.589,0:14:55.720
for drones. Because drones can fly around
0:14:55.720,0:14:59.279
and not destabilize countries for oil
0:14:59.279,0:15:04.149
and not causing body bags coming home.
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But it would be wrong to[br]say that US foreign policy
0:15:09.839,0:15:14.120
has been a failure. It has not.
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So if you look at the core interest [br]behind this foreign policy
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what is happening there, basically[br]countries being un-balanced,
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nobody really being able to concentrate[br]their power to challenge their hegemony,
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this has been largely a success.
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So, sure, there has been[br]a lot of chaos around,
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but economically, and[br]for the arms industry
0:15:37.480,0:15:40.369
in these countries,[br]especially in the US and the UK,
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but also other Western countries,[br]this has been a very successful decade.
0:15:44.309,0:15:49.220
So it’s not like their policies[br]have been failures.
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Rop: quietly, to Frank[br]Do you want to put this ?
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Next slide I think.
0:16:00.369,0:16:06.199
Frank: Yeah, one of the[br]things that are the tools
0:16:06.199,0:16:10.799
of foreign policy[br]scoffs in the West
0:16:10.799,0:16:14.079
is of course ubiquitous surveillance[br]and we had...
0:16:14.079,0:16:18.349
In 2005, we wrote that we need
0:16:18.349,0:16:21.339
to know how the intelligence[br]agencies work today,
0:16:21.339,0:16:25.599
we need to know how the backdoors work,
0:16:25.599,0:16:30.329
and how that is done in large scale.[br]That was 2005.
0:16:30.329,0:16:33.970
And we also wrote that we need
0:16:33.970,0:16:37.309
the infrastructure to[br]harbour whistleblowers,
0:16:37.309,0:16:39.449
to make it possible for[br]people from the dark side to
0:16:39.449,0:16:44.109
come forward, and get[br]this information out.
0:16:44.109,0:16:47.439
At least on this, it has been a success.[br]scoffs
0:16:47.439,0:16:49.299
This we can say.
0:16:49.299,0:16:56.299
applause
0:16:57.549,0:17:00.880
So we now know much more about
0:17:00.880,0:17:07.130
how the surveillance works, and[br]– but does it really help?
0:17:07.130,0:17:10.569
Rop: For most people, looking at the[br]Snowden revelations, it’s like
0:17:10.569,0:17:13.569
discovering a new force of nature.[br]It’s like they have discovered
0:17:13.569,0:17:16.989
this whole universe[br]that they didn’t previously know about,
0:17:16.989,0:17:21.909
there’s this “deep state” level[br]of logic, of thinking, of diplomacy,
0:17:21.919,0:17:27.939
of how countries really interact,[br]that now many more people know about.
0:17:27.939,0:17:30.749
What was considered paranoid,[br]what was considered:
0:17:30.749,0:17:33.940
“Oh my god, this is like a really[br]cynical way of looking at things!”
0:17:33.940,0:17:37.879
– now, many more people can see the[br]documents, be they diplomatic cables,
0:17:37.879,0:17:41.609
or be they the Snowden revelations,[br]and they can look and they can see:
0:17:41.609,0:17:46.659
“Look, this is really how[br]the world works.”
0:17:46.659,0:17:49.779
But, leaking alone is not sufficient.
0:17:49.779,0:17:53.400
There’s – as we can now see –[br]there’s too much systemic corruption,
0:17:53.400,0:17:56.850
too many secrets, too many[br]anti-leaker laws and measures.
0:17:56.850,0:18:00.170
We’re going to need true transparency[br]laws and we’re going to need to be able
0:18:00.170,0:18:03.159
to trust our governments and our[br]parliaments to do the right thing.
0:18:03.159,0:18:06.849
There was this naive belief that[br]if the scandal is big enough,
0:18:06.849,0:18:09.870
the system will finally correct itself.
0:18:09.870,0:18:14.599
What we see is the opposite. We see a[br]scandal of the magnitude of Watergate
0:18:14.599,0:18:19.069
every week or every two weeks[br]and nothing is happening.
0:18:19.069,0:18:21.859
We need to cope with that,[br]we need to come up with new strategies.
0:18:21.859,0:18:26.170
It’s like the paranoid movies[br]where finally the protagonist
0:18:26.170,0:18:30.590
gets to the president, and tells[br]the conspiracy to the president, and then
0:18:30.590,0:18:34.419
finds out in, sort of, in shadowy[br]words, he can find out
0:18:34.419,0:18:37.169
that the president is already[br]part of the conspiracy.
0:18:37.169,0:18:41.000
When the Snowden revelations came out it[br]was quickly clear that our governments
0:18:41.000,0:18:43.879
were not shocked, they were not like,[br]“Oh my god, our intelligence agencies
0:18:43.879,0:18:46.620
are really out of control! We need to do[br]something!” No, they were like:
0:18:46.620,0:18:52.269
“No, there’s nothing going on here,[br]keep moving, pay no attention.”
0:18:52.269,0:18:56.349
So we really need to come up[br]with strategies to deal with that.
0:18:56.349,0:18:58.950
Frank: So essentially their reaction was,
0:18:58.950,0:19:02.650
it was one of the first from when the
0:19:02.650,0:19:07.489
NSA was confronted by[br]the German government,
0:19:07.489,0:19:11.239
and their answer was:[br]“So, ok, now you know.”
0:19:11.239,0:19:13.099
scoffs
0:19:13.099,0:19:17.420
But that was about it.[br]So what we have is the situation
0:19:17.420,0:19:24.020
that it looks like transparency alone[br]doesn’t help anymore.
0:19:24.020,0:19:27.790
We had somehow hoped that...[br]It was also one of the naive beliefs
0:19:27.790,0:19:33.099
of the early internet times, that[br]transparency alone, “If people just knew”,
0:19:33.099,0:19:37.509
if people knew the problems,[br]the things, they would act,
0:19:37.509,0:19:42.029
they would get their stuff together[br]and, yeah, basically, change the system.
0:19:42.029,0:19:46.000
And it turned out that this[br]was a quite naive belief.
0:19:46.000,0:19:48.849
But that doesn’t mean that[br]transparency is not important.
0:19:48.849,0:19:53.400
It turns out that transparency[br]is like basic hygiene,
0:19:53.409,0:19:57.980
it’s like brushing your teeth,[br]like taking a shower for society.
0:19:57.980,0:20:02.440
So if you don’t have a transparency[br]of power and the power structures
0:20:02.440,0:20:07.489
and of what interests are[br]being conceived by whom,
0:20:07.489,0:20:11.119
what the tools of surveillance are,[br]“who knows what”,
0:20:11.119,0:20:13.800
then you cannot have a democracy anymore.
0:20:13.800,0:20:17.330
Because the world has become[br]so complex that it’s very easy
0:20:17.330,0:20:22.959
to hide relatively sinister[br]interests within society.
0:20:22.959,0:20:26.690
We even have the problem now that,[br]if you have a proper conspiracy
0:20:26.690,0:20:30.110
– a small one! –[br]if you make it complex enough,
0:20:30.110,0:20:34.839
the scandal cannot be told[br]within one print page
0:20:34.839,0:20:38.099
or one scroll range on the web site.
0:20:38.099,0:20:41.440
Then it’s hard to have it[br]as a scandal anymore.
0:20:41.440,0:20:47.339
Which is also part of the reason why[br]the Snowden revelations were kind of
0:20:47.339,0:20:52.710
difficult to turn into concrete[br]action for the larger society.
0:20:52.710,0:20:55.479
So one thing that we need to keep in mind
0:20:55.479,0:20:58.349
is that even the well meaning[br]people in government
0:20:58.349,0:21:02.829
and in bureaucratic institutions[br]really need transparency
0:21:02.829,0:21:07.200
to keep things in check, so it’s not[br]like transparency is useless or is
0:21:07.200,0:21:09.960
something that we[br]should give up as a goal,
0:21:09.960,0:21:12.850
but we need to understand[br]it has a different meaning,
0:21:12.850,0:21:16.860
a different purpose than[br]what we originally thought.
0:21:16.860,0:21:22.700
So the question is will this apathy last?
0:21:22.700,0:21:26.480
So, what will happen[br]when people start realizing
0:21:26.480,0:21:33.459
that the surveillance that they have[br]been trained to ignore somehow
0:21:33.459,0:21:37.520
will be in everything that they own.[br]When the “internet of things”
0:21:37.520,0:21:42.889
starts for real – we have[br]basically network sensors
0:21:42.889,0:21:46.579
in everything we own – then, suddenly,
0:21:46.579,0:21:49.109
the world becomes treacherous.
0:21:49.109,0:21:54.129
So everything that you own,[br]every door that you open,
0:21:54.129,0:21:58.579
everytime that you go to the fridge – if[br]you have an “internet of things” fridge –
0:21:58.579,0:22:02.639
then your fridge will snitch on you.[br]chuckles
0:22:02.639,0:22:06.210
And tell somebody that you opened[br]it and what you took out of it.
0:22:06.210,0:22:10.070
And if... the question is if this[br]maybe will change things.
0:22:10.070,0:22:12.309
It’s an open question to me. I don’t know.
0:22:12.309,0:22:15.789
So maybe the people[br]will stay in this apathy
0:22:15.789,0:22:18.950
and not change their attitudes[br]but maybe there is
0:22:18.950,0:22:21.830
a critical mass point where people say
0:22:21.830,0:22:25.090
“Now, it’s enough. It’s enough.”
0:22:25.090,0:22:28.319
So, maybe we need a seal:
0:22:28.319,0:22:31.129
“Certified cloud-less object”[br]or something.
0:22:31.129,0:22:34.130
that we need to stick on stuff.
0:22:34.130,0:22:39.180
applause
0:22:39.180,0:22:42.880
And this is also one of the things that[br]the hacker community is being asked for,
0:22:42.880,0:22:47.550
as, actually, we are the ones... the[br]hacking people are the ones that
0:22:47.550,0:22:51.089
can actually do this, making[br]objects cloud-less again,
0:22:51.089,0:22:54.119
chuckles[br]if needed.
0:22:54.119,0:22:57.869
If we look at the progress of technology[br]we can see that facial recognition,
0:22:57.869,0:23:01.300
including mood detection,[br]micro-expression detection,
0:23:01.300,0:23:04.229
infrared blood-flow detection[br]will become very cheap,
0:23:04.229,0:23:07.300
it will be everywhere. And we[br]need to have countermeasures.
0:23:07.300,0:23:10.569
And that means for[br]instance also cooperation
0:23:10.569,0:23:13.179
with the artists who[br]make clothing, who make
0:23:13.179,0:23:16.950
make-up, who do all the[br]stuff that you can legally
0:23:16.950,0:23:21.700
still wear in the public domain, and
0:23:21.700,0:23:25.669
think about, with them, what we can do[br]against this ubiquitous surveillance.
0:23:25.669,0:23:29.169
So that brings me to the core question:
0:23:29.169,0:23:33.479
So what is our mission[br]as a hacking community?
0:23:33.479,0:23:37.360
And I used to define this saying:
0:23:37.360,0:23:40.369
we are partly responsible for maintaining
0:23:40.369,0:23:43.319
society’s capability for change.
0:23:43.319,0:23:45.820
To keep the wiggle rooms open,
0:23:45.820,0:23:49.720
to keep the capabilities[br]for political actors
0:23:49.720,0:23:52.389
who want to change the[br]society for the better,
0:23:52.389,0:23:54.879
to make that still possible.
0:23:54.879,0:24:01.030
Not being strangled by surveillance, not[br]being frozen in place by lack of options
0:24:01.030,0:24:03.450
where people cannot do anything anymore
0:24:03.450,0:24:06.470
because every step that[br]they do is registered;
0:24:06.470,0:24:10.140
everything that they do[br]leads to potential blackmail.
0:24:10.140,0:24:16.659
And Evgeny Morozov has[br]recently written about that,
0:24:16.659,0:24:21.410
and he said that’s the[br]“invisible barbed wire”
0:24:21.410,0:24:24.519
that is basically around[br]you and that is made up
0:24:24.519,0:24:27.619
of the data that you leave[br]so that restricts your options,
0:24:27.619,0:24:31.709
it restricts your room of[br]movement and you’re not really
0:24:31.709,0:24:37.089
realizing that, unless you run[br]against the invisible barbed wire.
0:24:37.089,0:24:45.050
And so this question of[br]“blackmailability” versus transparency
0:24:45.050,0:24:49.340
– we want to have as much privacy[br]as we can as individuals,
0:24:49.340,0:24:54.050
but we want to have the institutions that[br]have power as transparent as possible –
0:24:54.050,0:24:57.480
is in the core of the[br]struggle for a free society.
0:24:57.480,0:25:00.179
Basically, giving the[br]individual the right,
0:25:00.179,0:25:03.759
or keeping our rights,[br]for change, for movement,
0:25:03.759,0:25:08.700
for making things better
0:25:08.700,0:25:13.120
versus the institutions’ capabilities[br]to keep stuff secret from us.
0:25:13.120,0:25:16.760
This is one of the core[br]struggles that we have.
0:25:16.760,0:25:21.789
And the intelligence agencies know stuff[br]about those in power.
0:25:21.789,0:25:27.619
They know what is blackmailable.[br]And the interesting thing is that
0:25:27.630,0:25:33.609
the number of blackmailable offenses[br]has been shrinking recently.
0:25:33.609,0:25:37.610
That has basically shrunk to:[br]very clear corruption,
0:25:37.610,0:25:41.590
pedophilia, and tax evasion.[br]With everything else, you can get away.
0:25:41.600,0:25:46.789
So, as a politician, drug use[br]is no problem, affair is no problem.
0:25:46.789,0:25:51.730
Having strange hobbies:[br]absolutely no problem.
0:25:51.730,0:25:57.540
laughter[br]applause
0:25:57.540,0:26:03.060
Homosexuality[br]– no problem anymore, very good!
0:26:04.650,0:26:07.580
But, those people in[br]the security apparatus
0:26:07.580,0:26:09.840
that evaluate politicians[br]and look at them,
0:26:09.840,0:26:14.649
and look what they can find against them
0:26:14.649,0:26:18.809
in the black’n’old chambers –[br]we don’t know.
0:26:18.809,0:26:21.699
So we don’t know most[br]of what politicians do.
0:26:21.699,0:26:26.179
I mean, sometimes, we learn that[br]they have bizarre habits
0:26:26.179,0:26:31.580
involving their genitalia and pigs,[br]which is, from my perspective,
0:26:31.580,0:26:35.200
their private thing to do, but[br]what’s more interesting is that
0:26:35.200,0:26:40.409
what the circle of men there did, was[br]creating a shared “Kompromat”,
0:26:40.409,0:26:46.000
a shared knowledge about each other[br]that was so painful back then
0:26:46.000,0:26:51.389
to publish, to divulge, that they had,[br]basically, mutually assured destruction
0:26:51.389,0:26:54.530
against each other.[br]This is how power circles work.
0:26:54.530,0:26:58.250
And the intelligence agencies know this[br]as well, and they want to get in there,
0:26:58.250,0:27:04.569
and we have very limited[br]resources to find out if politicians
0:27:04.569,0:27:08.620
are in the hands of intelligence agencies.[br]We can just look for the patterns.
0:27:08.620,0:27:13.610
So if a politician suddenly[br]changes his course
0:27:13.610,0:27:17.859
on matters that the “deep state”[br]intelligence agencies
0:27:17.859,0:27:22.139
are concerned about, then we can be pretty[br]certain that they have something
0:27:22.139,0:27:26.940
against him that falls into the[br]“still blackmailable” category.
0:27:26.940,0:27:30.340
So why did Cameron survive this thing?
0:27:30.340,0:27:34.749
Because everybody who[br]could have overthrown him
0:27:34.749,0:27:37.499
was part of the same circle.[br]chuckles
0:27:37.499,0:27:44.200
So they were all part of the same[br]game and they knew about it.
0:27:44.200,0:27:48.239
So they created a space of[br]invincibility around them.
0:27:48.239,0:27:52.379
And so, the question then is, [br]“Why does it all matter so little?”
0:27:52.379,0:27:56.739
Why are all these big scandals that we[br]know about, all this corruption, all these
0:27:56.739,0:28:01.289
things, where we know that[br]politicians really misbehaved,
0:28:01.289,0:28:05.089
except for these three cases,[br]but even then –
0:28:05.089,0:28:08.900
why is nobody rioting on the streets?[br]Why is nobody calling out a revolution
0:28:08.900,0:28:11.530
just now, why is it that[br]people are just saying:
0:28:11.530,0:28:14.750
“Yeah, this is how it is,[br]this is how it has been
0:28:14.750,0:28:18.180
all the time and we cannot[br]do anything about it?”
0:28:18.180,0:28:22.210
Rop: For that, we have to look[br]at the psychology of our time.
0:28:22.210,0:28:26.829
We live in what circles around[br]the “Adbusters Magazine”,
0:28:26.829,0:28:31.149
by the Adbusters collective, described[br]– and I thought that was really useful –
0:28:31.149,0:28:35.290
they describe our time as a massively[br]polluted psychological environment.
0:28:35.290,0:28:38.639
And it makes sense to[br]think about it that way.
0:28:38.639,0:28:42.530
We have mechanisms for discourse in[br]society and those mechanisms are
0:28:42.530,0:28:47.529
deliberately sabotaged, by[br]lobbying, advertising, sock-puppeting,
0:28:47.529,0:28:51.229
the destruction of debate,[br]and the destruction
0:28:51.229,0:28:55.040
of the human ability to think properly,
0:28:55.040,0:28:58.640
is very widespread in our societies.
0:28:58.640,0:29:01.629
There’s no more proper discourse,[br]there’s no proper facts,
0:29:01.629,0:29:05.760
and there’s trends that counter[br]any scientific thinking
0:29:05.760,0:29:10.590
or enlightenment – anti-vaccination,[br]anti-science, anti-fact...
0:29:10.590,0:29:15.829
There is a lot of thinking
0:29:15.829,0:29:21.010
that rejects a common truth or rejects[br]a common reality that we live in,
0:29:21.010,0:29:24.369
and tries to find niches, tries to do...
0:29:24.369,0:29:27.369
tries to retract into something
0:29:27.369,0:29:31.459
that we can still believe.
0:29:31.459,0:29:35.020
We need some kind of a rationality[br]movement. We need some kind of a movement
0:29:35.020,0:29:38.540
to say: “Look, we can disagree on policy,[br]we can disagree on a lot of things,
0:29:38.540,0:29:41.359
but let’s not disagree[br]on facts. Let’s not...”
0:29:41.359,0:29:44.749
And America is of course the capital of
0:29:44.749,0:29:47.329
what has been described[br]as “bullshit mountain”,
0:29:47.329,0:29:53.929
as whole universes that[br]are internally consistent
0:29:53.929,0:29:58.139
– universes of fake[br]facts, of fake realities,
0:29:58.139,0:30:02.230
of fake, and we need to reject those.
0:30:02.230,0:30:04.820
Much of science, of the[br]scientific enterprises,
0:30:04.820,0:30:09.330
at this point is very captured, economy is
0:30:09.330,0:30:12.489
basically run by the large banks.
0:30:12.489,0:30:15.860
But still: that doesn’t mean we can reject
0:30:15.860,0:30:20.660
the practice of science, just because it’s[br]currently not in the right hands, often.
0:30:20.669,0:30:26.280
Facts are important.
0:30:26.280,0:30:28.979
And it’s also important to understand
0:30:28.979,0:30:32.149
that being angry or unhappy
0:30:32.149,0:30:34.389
right now, for prolonged periods,
0:30:34.389,0:30:37.959
is a recognized medical condition.
0:30:37.959,0:30:41.890
If you look at the world, and for[br]a year or two years at a time,
0:30:41.890,0:30:45.190
this world makes you really depressed,[br]or angry, or unhappy,
0:30:45.190,0:30:49.850
you can go to the doctor and[br]you can get medication for that.
0:30:49.850,0:30:54.179
Lots of people, 5% or 10%[br]of the population in some countries,
0:30:54.179,0:30:56.779
are on antidepressants.
0:30:56.779,0:30:59.539
These are the people that cannot function,
0:30:59.539,0:31:02.679
they basically do not want to go to work.
0:31:02.679,0:31:07.550
Are we – and this is an open question –[br]are we suppressing a critical mass?
0:31:07.550,0:31:10.690
Because at some point, when there is no[br]other people that don’t wanna go to work,
0:31:10.690,0:31:14.309
and start a movement, or, I don’t know,
0:31:14.309,0:31:17.810
riot in the streets, or do whatever[br]else it is that they would be doing,
0:31:17.810,0:31:21.100
if they don’t go to work. If you have[br]enough of these people, not doing that,
0:31:21.100,0:31:24.399
then it becomes the right decision[br]for the lonely person that is out there
0:31:24.399,0:31:29.439
to also take antidepressants.
0:31:29.439,0:31:33.029
Our community – we have to face this –[br]has a large pool
0:31:33.030,0:31:36.100
of what I would call[br]non-neuro-normative people.
0:31:36.100,0:31:39.949
There are lots of people in our community[br]that are on the autistic sprectrum,
0:31:39.949,0:31:43.539
that are bipolar, that are...[br]there is lots of people
0:31:43.539,0:31:47.419
that are not the standard norm,
0:31:47.419,0:31:50.889
when it comes to their neurology.
0:31:50.889,0:31:53.559
What does that mean?[br]What does this mean in practice?
0:31:53.559,0:31:58.150
Hasn’t it always been the artists,[br]the slightly crazy people,
0:31:58.150,0:32:01.380
the slightly non-normative people,[br]that have seen things coming first,
0:32:01.380,0:32:04.640
that have warned about things first?
0:32:04.640,0:32:07.610
These are things we need to think about.
0:32:07.610,0:32:12.750
Frank: Another thing that we need to[br]take care about in our community is:
0:32:12.750,0:32:16.599
“Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t[br]mean that they’re not out to get you”
0:32:16.599,0:32:19.769
holds more true than ever.
0:32:19.769,0:32:23.799
Because we have now in our midth...,
0:32:23.799,0:32:27.989
in our middle quite a number of[br]people who are actually harassed
0:32:27.989,0:32:34.530
by the governments. So if you look at[br]the people from Occupy in the US,
0:32:34.530,0:32:38.390
basically the refugee waves that[br]are coming in from the US,
0:32:38.390,0:32:41.259
the political refugees that[br]are coming from there.
0:32:41.259,0:32:43.799
They’re coming now also[br]from Hungary and Poland.
0:32:43.799,0:32:48.519
People who have really been[br]oppressed and really experienced
0:32:48.529,0:32:51.609
a lot of harassment from the[br]hands of their governments.
0:32:51.609,0:32:56.560
And so we need to be also clear[br]that the more crypto that we use,
0:32:56.560,0:32:59.009
the better our technical[br]security systems get,
0:32:59.009,0:33:01.539
the more classic the intelligence[br]agencies will get as well,
0:33:01.539,0:33:03.699
that means more informants.
0:33:03.699,0:33:07.889
And so we need to figure out ways to
0:33:07.889,0:33:11.089
sort the needlessly paranoid and[br]slightly crazy people from the people
0:33:11.089,0:33:17.229
who really have a problem with[br]oppression and being followed around.
0:33:17.229,0:33:20.729
So informants are tools of power.
0:33:20.729,0:33:26.090
We need to talk about the power[br]structures that are using them.
0:33:26.090,0:33:31.350
So if you look at the larger picture,[br]we have basically 3 major models
0:33:31.350,0:33:35.320
of society that we have[br]on this planet today.
0:33:35.320,0:33:41.859
It’s more the US[br]Ayn Rand ultra-individualistic
0:33:41.859,0:33:47.059
surveillance state system, that says[br]that everything that you can do
0:33:47.059,0:33:50.579
for yourself is good for you and[br]the state surveils everybody else
0:33:50.579,0:33:54.590
so stuff stays within[br]the prescribed limits.
0:33:54.590,0:34:00.880
Then we have the Chinese model of the[br]harmonic society, that essentially says:
0:34:00.880,0:34:06.320
When we can keep this 100 000 people[br]happy, it’s okay to kill this 1000 people.
0:34:06.320,0:34:10.720
And is... yeah... another way of saying
0:34:10.720,0:34:15.159
utilitaristic usage of power is justified.
0:34:15.159,0:34:19.049
And then we have the European[br]model, that is more on a traditional
0:34:19.049,0:34:20.719
of enlightenment, of individualism,
0:34:20.719,0:34:24.399
of balancing out state power[br]and economic power.
0:34:24.399,0:34:28.069
But none of these models is[br]really superior against the other
0:34:28.069,0:34:30.409
because all of them are deeply corrupt.
0:34:30.409,0:34:35.650
So all of them have been corrupted[br]by various interests
0:34:35.650,0:34:41.200
and if we can not solve the corruption[br]of the political process,
0:34:41.200,0:34:44.049
then all these models kind of converge.
0:34:44.049,0:34:48.049
So it doesn’t really matter any more,[br]if you are living under a Chinese
0:34:48.049,0:34:50.399
surveillance state or[br]a US surveillance state.
0:34:50.399,0:34:54.170
Maybe you can watch better[br]pornography in one than in the other,
0:34:54.170,0:34:56.320
but that’s about probably it.
0:34:56.320,0:35:01.850
And so... and if we can not get[br]this corruption out of the systems,
0:35:01.850,0:35:05.250
regardless under what systems we live,
0:35:05.250,0:35:11.450
then the problems will not go away.
0:35:11.450,0:35:15.379
Yeah, we should understand that[br]surveillance, ubiquitous surveillance
0:35:15.379,0:35:18.799
means that we have less and[br]less small scale corruption.
0:35:18.799,0:35:21.510
So basically small briberies[br]to get your passport faster,
0:35:21.510,0:35:23.940
or to get the building permit done,
0:35:23.940,0:35:28.100
but surveillance means that the[br]corruption needs to be large scale.
0:35:28.100,0:35:32.079
That’s the billions, not the[br]hundreds of Dollars or Euros
0:35:32.079,0:35:37.250
that you’re talking about. That means...[br]the surveillance state means that
0:35:37.250,0:35:41.689
larger and larger interests are at[br]play and that these are the ones
0:35:41.689,0:35:45.520
that are dominating the state.[br]And these are harder and harder to fight.
0:35:45.520,0:35:49.344
So fighting the small corruption of a[br]corrupt official in your hometown
0:35:49.344,0:35:50.974
is doable.
0:35:50.974,0:35:57.784
Fighting a large multi billion dollar[br]weapons manufacturer
0:35:57.784,0:36:01.569
is becoming slightly more complicated.
0:36:01.569,0:36:07.710
So, we have tried to... to visualize
0:36:07.710,0:36:11.400
the situation somewhat.
0:36:11.400,0:36:17.339
So we have this graph where we have
0:36:17.339,0:36:20.099
on the one axis liberty,[br]democracy, civilization,
0:36:20.099,0:36:22.210
on the other one we have time.
0:36:22.210,0:36:25.129
And we... what we want...
0:36:25.129,0:36:29.180
Rop: Don’t kill yourself just yet![br]There’s more positive messages out there.
0:36:29.180,0:36:31.700
Frank: Yes![br]is laughing
0:36:31.700,0:36:36.890
So what we don’t know is how[br]long will it be till rock bottom,
0:36:36.890,0:36:40.799
we don’t know what will be coming later,
0:36:40.799,0:36:43.980
so if it will go down further[br]or will go up at some point
0:36:43.980,0:36:47.340
and we also don’t know[br]how deep the valley will be.
0:36:47.340,0:36:50.350
So but, what is pretty sure,
0:36:50.350,0:36:55.710
is that stuff will not be[br]really rosy for a while.
0:36:55.710,0:37:01.100
So if you look at the tendencies in the[br]world that we have briefly discussed now,
0:37:01.100,0:37:04.730
it doesn’t really...[br]it’s not really possible to say:
0:37:04.730,0:37:09.249
“Okay, revolution next week,[br]things will be good again.”
0:37:09.249,0:37:10.779
So this would be just a lie.
0:37:10.779,0:37:15.410
So we need to understand,[br]that the next decades
0:37:15.410,0:37:19.509
will be more greyish than[br]beautiful, in that sense.
0:37:19.509,0:37:20.999
So there will be lots of §$%&.
0:37:20.999,0:37:27.210
But, that doesn’t mean, that they can[br]not be good fulfilling decades for us.
0:37:27.210,0:37:30.489
That doesn’t mean that we need[br]to be depressed about it.
0:37:30.489,0:37:33.990
It’s just the world that we live in[br]and the world we live in we can
0:37:33.990,0:37:39.210
change to a certain extent[br]but not by wishful thinking.
0:37:39.210,0:37:46.209
Rop: Yeah![br]applause
0:37:47.959,0:37:50.880
So let’s look at a few trends.
0:37:50.880,0:37:56.710
Terrorism is now the main reason why we[br]need to be discarding basic civil rights.
0:37:56.710,0:37:59.420
But I remember being a child in the 1970s
0:37:59.420,0:38:02.400
and my parents tuning into[br]the morning broadcast to hear
0:38:02.400,0:38:06.920
whether the hostages in the train or the[br]hostages in the school in Holland...
0:38:06.920,0:38:12.209
there was a conflict with Moluccans
0:38:12.209,0:38:15.310
wanting there own state and they took[br]hostages and they were threatening
0:38:15.310,0:38:18.280
to shoot them.[br]Conflicts lasted for weeks.
0:38:18.280,0:38:21.170
Many more people died[br]of terrorism in Europe
0:38:21.170,0:38:26.319
in the 1960s and 70s than they did in the[br]80s and 90s and onward.
0:38:26.319,0:38:30.200
But nobody spoke about[br]discarding basic civil rights.
0:38:30.200,0:38:33.330
Why? Because it was simply too expensive.[br]I think we can say that now.
0:38:33.330,0:38:37.870
Because in that time it was seen as[br]ridiculous for the East German state
0:38:37.870,0:38:41.599
to want to know who sent mail to[br]who or to open all these envelopes.
0:38:41.599,0:38:44.160
That was seen as[br]typical things that only
0:38:44.160,0:38:47.210
a police state would ever[br]contemplate on doing.
0:38:47.210,0:38:50.770
All of these things are being implemented[br]now. Why? Because it’s cheap enough!
0:38:50.770,0:38:55.630
This was all cost driven,[br]not danger driven!
0:38:55.630,0:39:01.779
applause
0:39:01.779,0:39:07.089
And we can see long term strategies.[br]We can see strategies that span decades,
0:39:07.089,0:39:11.750
the treaties, the internationally[br]harmonised legislation,
0:39:11.750,0:39:17.820
ACTA, CESA, cybercrime treaties,[br]TTIP... what not... what not... etc. etc.
0:39:17.820,0:39:19.820
They used to cement the[br]economic status quo,
0:39:19.820,0:39:23.169
or they used to increase[br]surveillance and repression.
0:39:23.169,0:39:26.550
And it’s like they figured out the[br]strategy. There is now a treaty train
0:39:26.550,0:39:32.140
leaving every year or two years and[br]it’s to wear down the activists.
0:39:32.140,0:39:34.780
Everything that the activists[br]managed to get off the train
0:39:34.780,0:39:36.559
is just put on the next train.
0:39:36.559,0:39:39.719
See if you can mobilise the same things,
0:39:39.719,0:39:42.349
the same level of[br]activism two years later.
0:39:42.349,0:39:45.210
How often do we need to[br]mobilise the same fight
0:39:45.210,0:39:49.930
to fight the same damn[br]unconstitutional laws?
0:39:49.930,0:39:53.680
There is very necessary[br]activism that is... always
0:39:53.680,0:39:57.850
has this “Act now to stop this[br]evil law from coming into effect.”
0:39:57.850,0:40:00.349
It’s very important! It needs to happen.
0:40:00.349,0:40:04.710
But it may not be enough. We don’t have[br]ready-to-go answers; maybe, there is a few
0:40:04.710,0:40:10.400
ideas we have, and other people have,[br]but we need clever and funny strategies.
0:40:10.400,0:40:13.750
Because I’m often called a pessimist and
0:40:13.750,0:40:15.950
“Oh my god it’s all doom and gloom.”
0:40:15.950,0:40:20.500
But a lot of what’s going on in the world[br]right now is actually very funny.
0:40:20.500,0:40:23.510
It’s funny in a very dark way.[br]It’s a very dark humour.
0:40:23.510,0:40:27.360
But you can not look at this world[br]and go “Oh my god, this is...”.
0:40:27.360,0:40:31.770
It’s so stereotypical. And we[br]have to make people see this.
0:40:31.770,0:40:34.540
We have to be the clowns.[br]We have to make people see this.
0:40:34.540,0:40:36.420
If the Interior Minister says:
0:40:36.420,0:40:40.749
“Well, parts of my answer would[br]make the population insecure.”
0:40:40.749,0:40:46.880
laughing, applause
0:40:46.880,0:40:50.300
...that deserves roaring laughter[br]from the entire population,
0:40:50.300,0:40:54.260
‘cause it’s the only thing that will work.
0:40:54.260,0:40:59.540
applause
0:40:59.540,0:41:03.509
But what we also need is, we[br]need to dare to dream ahead.
0:41:03.509,0:41:06.580
There is... A lot of strategies[br]in activism are incremental,
0:41:06.580,0:41:09.969
meaning we are here, we want[br]to go there, so let’s chop this up
0:41:09.969,0:41:13.140
into 10 little pieces and then[br]start working on the first two.
0:41:13.140,0:41:15.970
Whereas in reality we are not[br]here, because there is so much
0:41:15.970,0:41:18.220
chaos going on. There are[br]so many events happening,
0:41:18.220,0:41:21.590
that we are actually all[br]over the place all the time.
0:41:21.590,0:41:25.749
So we need to build strategies that[br]assume that we are not in the place,
0:41:25.749,0:41:29.789
where we are in today. But we assume[br]we are somewhere completely different.
0:41:29.789,0:41:32.050
And sometimes we win.
0:41:32.050,0:41:35.860
We have very few strategies[br]for when people we like
0:41:35.860,0:41:39.540
or people who’s ideas we agree with[br]actually get to power.
0:41:39.540,0:41:42.170
Do we know what laws we[br]would like to have repealed?
0:41:42.170,0:41:44.359
What new laws would[br]we like to have passed?
0:41:44.359,0:41:47.109
Have we maybe taken the time[br]to write these laws already?
0:41:47.109,0:41:49.990
Even though they are ridiculous today?
0:41:49.990,0:41:53.099
Is there an Anti-Patriot-Act?[br]Is there an... ?
0:41:53.099,0:41:55.570
We’ve tried to work on[br]a few of these things.
0:41:55.570,0:41:58.139
I’ve been personally a part[br]of thinking about IMMI,
0:41:58.139,0:42:00.320
the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative.
0:42:00.320,0:42:04.860
That was an idea: can we create a[br]system of laws to protect publications?
0:42:04.860,0:42:07.479
Anywhere from whistleblower protection,
0:42:07.479,0:42:10.920
protection of journalists,[br]protection of publications.
0:42:10.920,0:42:13.880
So can we make a system of laws and[br]can we figure out how they would all
0:42:13.880,0:42:17.220
work together to protect publications[br]in one country and then
0:42:17.220,0:42:21.560
through sort of a spreading effect[br]make that go to other countries.
0:42:21.560,0:42:25.240
We need to... we need[br]to dare to think ahead!
0:42:25.240,0:42:30.030
And to not just always react and[br]always be driven into this little corner,
0:42:30.030,0:42:32.700
which we have to fight a way out of.
0:42:32.700,0:42:36.260
In many countries discontent with the[br]powers that be, with the way things are,
0:42:36.260,0:42:40.960
is growing. In some countries that[br]leads to left wing movements
0:42:40.960,0:42:43.579
growing or getting...[br]even getting to power.
0:42:43.579,0:42:47.870
There’s things going on in Portugal,[br]in Spain, in the UK,
0:42:47.870,0:42:52.250
where Corbyn is now[br]leading the Labour Party.
0:42:52.250,0:42:55.780
In other countries and powers those[br]that challenge the status quo
0:42:55.780,0:42:59.420
or say they challenge the status quo
0:42:59.420,0:43:04.610
with even more fear and anti-immigrant[br]sentiments and policies.
0:43:04.610,0:43:08.690
And in the US interestingly we[br]see both trends happening,
0:43:08.690,0:43:12.260
but in an increasingly bizarre[br]corporate media landscape.
0:43:12.260,0:43:16.139
So there’s all these things happening.
0:43:16.139,0:43:20.390
Frank: Yeah so, one of the things[br]that changed in the last 10 years is:
0:43:20.390,0:43:25.549
Stuff can change very, very quickly.[br]So stuff, situations,
0:43:25.549,0:43:29.030
reality can change very, very fast.
0:43:29.030,0:43:32.590
For instance, let’s look[br]at the refugee situation.
0:43:32.590,0:43:36.459
Just a year or two ago what has been[br]happening in Europe in the last month,
0:43:36.459,0:43:39.620
would be... have been[br]totally unimaginable.
0:43:39.620,0:43:44.470
And there is no security
0:43:44.470,0:43:47.139
in the rest of the herd still grazing.
0:43:47.139,0:43:51.420
So if you see stuff is nice and[br]well over here in Germany,
0:43:51.420,0:43:55.910
which is becoming more and more of an[br]exception in the surrounding countries,
0:43:55.910,0:43:59.770
then that doesn’t mean that stuff[br]can not change here very quickly.
0:43:59.770,0:44:05.200
And this is something that we need to get[br]adjusted to. That the stability is gone.
0:44:05.200,0:44:10.309
So the stability, the dampness of the[br]system are all gone and that means that
0:44:10.309,0:44:15.239
these sudden turns of events can[br]also make oppressive regimes
0:44:15.239,0:44:20.920
like in Poland or in Hungary or commonly[br]seen in France more powerful.
0:44:20.920,0:44:26.789
So we can not guarantee that[br]change is positive in every way.
0:44:26.789,0:44:32.109
So if you look at the increased pressures
0:44:32.109,0:44:36.719
on the population, we see that
0:44:36.719,0:44:42.160
the problems that are multiplying[br]from automation on the one hand;
0:44:42.160,0:44:44.849
on the other hand more and more people
0:44:44.849,0:44:49.570
not having their talents valued by[br]the market, by the job market any more
0:44:49.570,0:44:53.160
and the pressures that are now[br]coming in with the refugees
0:44:53.160,0:44:58.280
will make right wing powers[br]probably more powerful.
0:44:58.280,0:45:01.589
And the question is:[br]In this fight for power
0:45:01.589,0:45:05.760
in the Western countries that will[br]becoming more pronounced political fights
0:45:05.760,0:45:07.710
how do we position ourselves?
0:45:07.710,0:45:11.840
How does the hacking community[br]position itself in these fights?
0:45:11.840,0:45:14.320
So will we engage? Will we fight? How?
0:45:14.320,0:45:18.490
What is the... yeah... what is the means
0:45:18.490,0:45:22.350
and the goals that we are aiming for?
0:45:22.350,0:45:27.639
And the world today is uniquely[br]connected and complicated.
0:45:27.639,0:45:31.490
So any solutions are going to be complex.
0:45:31.490,0:45:33.809
That means we need[br]a generation of activists
0:45:33.809,0:45:36.310
that is post-depression[br]about the situation
0:45:36.310,0:45:39.800
and that doesn’t have[br]any fear of complexity.
0:45:39.800,0:45:42.320
So complexity is the new norm.
0:45:42.320,0:45:47.460
It’s not like things or simple solutions[br]will be around the corner any more.
0:45:47.460,0:45:52.090
This time is gone forever.
0:45:52.090,0:45:57.670
Rop: So, we did this talk in 2005[br]and it was, in many ways it was taboo.
0:45:57.670,0:46:02.449
All of congress was depressed[br]for a while or at least
0:46:02.449,0:46:05.480
people were walking around[br]with gloomy faces.
0:46:05.480,0:46:10.850
And there was then and there still is[br]today a myth in the progressive community,
0:46:10.850,0:46:13.349
that a story must have a happy end.
0:46:13.349,0:46:15.910
If you want to get large groups of people
0:46:15.910,0:46:18.369
to come together and fight to make change,
0:46:18.369,0:46:22.930
you have to present a happy end.
0:46:22.930,0:46:26.480
And this is bullshit!
0:46:26.480,0:46:33.759
applause, cheering
0:46:33.759,0:46:36.820
The problem with that message is[br]that you create a disconnect
0:46:36.820,0:46:40.489
between the reality that people can see,[br]a reality where outcomes are gradually
0:46:40.489,0:46:43.370
getting worse in some[br]fields and the world
0:46:43.370,0:46:46.880
that they are told to believe in.
0:46:46.880,0:46:49.950
Everybody is hiring PR professionals
0:46:49.950,0:46:54.549
and PR professionals are... their job[br]is to keep everybody consuming.
0:46:54.549,0:46:56.470
So their job is to present happy outcomes.
0:46:56.470,0:46:58.730
Their job is to keep people[br]to spend their money.
0:46:58.730,0:47:01.579
And so we tend to believe[br]these people, when they say:
0:47:01.579,0:47:04.370
“Well you must have a happy outcome.
0:47:04.370,0:47:06.890
Let’s all... Let’s tell[br]people that if they don’t
0:47:06.890,0:47:10.909
buy the right light bulbs and[br]don’t get their electricity
0:47:10.909,0:47:13.019
from the right provider and buy a Prius
0:47:13.019,0:47:16.380
then they’re themselves responsible[br]for any bad outcomes that happen.”
0:47:16.380,0:47:20.079
So shame everybody into believing[br]that the bad outcome is actually them.
0:47:20.079,0:47:23.209
That’s a frame that we should reject.
0:47:23.209,0:47:28.150
We’ve been warning progressive people,[br]that have seen things coming, about
0:47:28.150,0:47:32.700
what’s going on right now since the 1970s.[br]The coming of the police state, the fact
0:47:32.700,0:47:36.790
that planetary resources are limited,[br]there’s limits to growth. That’s 1972.
0:47:36.790,0:47:43.790
I was 4 years old. So let’s not[br]fall for this kind of messaging.
0:47:49.630,0:47:52.610
Frank: The question is then:[br]What is our mission?
0:47:52.610,0:47:55.870
What is the stuff that we should aim for?
0:47:55.870,0:47:59.240
And one thing that should[br]be very clear about is
0:47:59.240,0:48:01.200
this planet is a crime scene.
0:48:01.200,0:48:04.269
And this also means that...
0:48:04.269,0:48:08.579
applause
0:48:08.579,0:48:12.060
the thing to say to the people responsible[br]is: so for decades we have made it
0:48:12.060,0:48:15.340
very clear that we don’t[br]want to live in an 1984
0:48:15.340,0:48:18.240
environmental degraded police state.
0:48:18.240,0:48:23.079
We saw it coming but we went there anyway,[br]because it was short-term profitable
0:48:23.079,0:48:26.810
and your corporate friends[br]were very well off with that.
0:48:26.810,0:48:31.609
So please, now, step aside, place[br]your hands where we can see them
0:48:31.609,0:48:35.520
and we will read you your rights, while we[br]try to mitigate the shit that you caused
0:48:35.520,0:48:38.169
as best as we can.
0:48:38.169,0:48:41.279
applause
0:48:41.279,0:48:46.860
So the forces that made the world[br]as it is today are not natural laws.
0:48:46.860,0:48:49.609
It’s not like this greed[br]and this corruption
0:48:49.609,0:48:52.250
is the native state of humanity.
0:48:52.250,0:48:55.380
It is just what people made it to be.
0:48:55.380,0:48:59.300
And so, the people who[br]did it are nameable.
0:48:59.300,0:49:03.380
So we know that the fossil fuel industry[br]knew since the 70s and 80s
0:49:03.380,0:49:06.950
that they were basically[br]causing planetary collapse,
0:49:06.950,0:49:09.840
that they were causing the climate
0:49:09.840,0:49:12.889
to go down for their corporate profits.
0:49:12.889,0:49:16.709
And that also means that we[br]need to preserve the evidence.
0:49:16.709,0:49:20.149
So we may not be yet in the position[br]that we can cause prosecution
0:49:20.149,0:49:23.019
of these people, but this[br]time will certainly come,
0:49:23.019,0:49:26.020
hopefully before our children[br]are too old for that.
0:49:26.020,0:49:28.240
And so, we don’t need to really fight
0:49:28.240,0:49:31.440
their silly PR efforts to still[br]preserve their profits.
0:49:31.440,0:49:34.410
So what we need to do is collect[br]the evidence and let them know
0:49:34.410,0:49:38.609
that we collect the evidence and[br]that we will use it some time.
0:49:38.609,0:49:46.180
applause
0:49:46.180,0:49:50.319
So in the 80s we thought[br]that all change is good.
0:49:50.319,0:49:53.430
So because the world was[br]kind of frozen in place so that
0:49:53.430,0:49:56.399
especially in our fields, in technology[br]and telecommunications,
0:49:56.399,0:49:59.640
we thought that all change is good,
0:49:59.640,0:50:03.890
but now we need to remind ourselves[br]that not all change is bad.
0:50:03.890,0:50:07.040
So because when we are in a world that we
0:50:07.040,0:50:12.540
think that may not be getting[br]much better soonish,
0:50:12.540,0:50:15.400
the sudden impulse would be to revert to
0:50:15.400,0:50:17.850
conservatism saying[br]are we try to cliiing to
0:50:17.850,0:50:21.289
the status quo and not try[br]to have too much change,
0:50:21.289,0:50:25.309
but this would be wrong, because[br]change can also be for the better.
0:50:25.309,0:50:30.170
So this absence of[br]stability is the new norm.
0:50:30.170,0:50:35.320
We need to live with that. And we need[br]to work for making positive change,
0:50:35.320,0:50:39.689
because change itself[br]can no longer be averted.
0:50:39.689,0:50:43.810
Rop: Yeah, we need to define missions[br]for ourselves and argue for them
0:50:43.810,0:50:48.760
to be worthwhile, personally as well as[br]in the bigger picture.
0:50:48.760,0:50:52.789
Picture a world were... yes, some[br]outcomes may be negative
0:50:52.789,0:50:56.790
or things may be getting worse, but[br]you can do meaningful stuff in the
0:50:56.790,0:51:01.080
life-saving, democracy-rescuing,[br]world-changing sense of the word.
0:51:01.080,0:51:07.060
No fake utopian outcomes,[br]no lies to tell people,
0:51:07.060,0:51:10.949
but still very positive at the personal[br]level for each and everyone of us.
0:51:10.949,0:51:13.809
The sense of belonging to a[br]community like the one we have,
0:51:13.809,0:51:17.269
but other communities as well,[br]is going to become more important.
0:51:17.269,0:51:20.000
In difficult times people[br]will come together.
0:51:20.000,0:51:22.840
There’s great happiness in the sense[br]of purpose to be found in caring
0:51:22.840,0:51:26.329
for your friends, sharing[br]knowledge and experience.
0:51:26.329,0:51:30.050
Especially if things[br]get a little bit hairy.
0:51:30.050,0:51:33.190
And even if we end up[br]in a bad possible future,
0:51:33.190,0:51:36.990
if things degrade, if[br]infrastructure starts to fail,
0:51:36.990,0:51:42.480
even if that happens, the hacker[br]mindset is – I’ve said this before –
0:51:42.480,0:51:47.089
is a post-apocalyptically [br]appropriate way of thinking.
0:51:47.089,0:51:50.719
Wouldn’t you run to your hackerspace,
0:51:50.719,0:51:52.569
if things really went wrong?
0:51:52.569,0:51:57.469
Wouldn’t it... if the world[br]went down in chaos,
0:51:57.469,0:52:00.970
I would really want it to happen somewhere[br]at the end of December, because
0:52:00.970,0:52:05.440
you all would be the people[br]I would want to be around.
0:52:05.440,0:52:12.440
applause
0:52:14.370,0:52:19.279
I would like to think of this[br]community as having a role,
0:52:19.279,0:52:21.270
when things go wrong.
0:52:21.270,0:52:25.419
And many of us have taken on these roles.
0:52:25.419,0:52:31.009
I was travelling to some of[br]the Eastern European countries
0:52:31.009,0:52:36.319
to Serbia, to Croatia to see[br]some of the refugee situations
0:52:36.319,0:52:38.989
with my own eyes.
0:52:38.989,0:52:41.690
And I think many more[br]of us need to be there.
0:52:41.690,0:52:46.010
There can’t be just one guy from Zagreb[br]running around with wireless modems
0:52:46.010,0:52:48.509
to try to connect all the[br]people that are trying
0:52:48.509,0:52:50.900
to help there and try to[br]disseminate information.
0:52:50.900,0:52:55.830
Many more of us need[br]to be in these situations.
0:52:55.830,0:53:02.830
applause
0:53:03.030,0:53:07.279
Frank: And so, we have been following
0:53:07.279,0:53:11.370
the strategy of enlarging our cultural,
0:53:11.370,0:53:15.860
or culture, the hacking culture[br]over the last many years.
0:53:15.860,0:53:19.409
You probably noticed that from...[br]I don’t know, if you look back at
0:53:19.409,0:53:24.430
the Eidelstedter Bürgerhaus, the[br]congress was still looking a bit drab,
0:53:24.430,0:53:29.959
whereas now we have an... artists and[br]people from the various cultural domains
0:53:29.959,0:53:34.980
as an integrated part of our[br]community, of our culture.
0:53:34.980,0:53:38.630
And this is essentially[br]what we need to do.
0:53:38.630,0:53:41.789
So if you look at the last,[br]back at the last 10 years
0:53:41.789,0:53:46.180
the stuff that was made working
0:53:46.180,0:53:48.490
is the alliance between the hackers,
0:53:48.490,0:53:52.140
the journalists, investigative[br]journalists, and the artists.
0:53:52.140,0:53:55.680
So this is something that is working[br]now. This is a big achievement.
0:53:55.680,0:54:02.529
So that we can say: This is something[br]where we managed to grow our culture,
0:54:02.529,0:54:08.369
so growing from a couple 100 people in[br]some old community building in Hamburg,
0:54:08.369,0:54:12.429
now we’re having 12 000 people and could[br]be 15 000 if this house would house us.
0:54:12.429,0:54:14.820
This is a big change.
0:54:14.820,0:54:18.809
And this is also something[br]we can be proud of.
0:54:18.809,0:54:25.810
applause
0:54:25.880,0:54:30.700
So if we want to form further alliances,
0:54:30.700,0:54:33.910
so we need to... in order to succeed
0:54:33.910,0:54:37.559
we need to actively stop[br]the trend that people are
0:54:37.559,0:54:40.040
choosing minor bickering fights.
0:54:40.040,0:54:45.109
That they are more interested in[br]fighting the heretics in their own ranks,
0:54:45.109,0:54:48.959
in the people who are not[br]using the words that they like
0:54:48.959,0:54:52.529
or that are finding[br]different stuff important.
0:54:52.529,0:54:55.599
So we’re all having more[br]or less the same goals
0:54:55.599,0:54:58.240
this is basically what makes us a culture,
0:54:58.240,0:55:00.889
is that we’re having the same ideas about
0:55:00.889,0:55:03.720
the general structure of[br]society how it should be,
0:55:03.720,0:55:06.039
the same ideas how people should interact
0:55:06.039,0:55:08.699
and the rights of the individuum.
0:55:08.699,0:55:13.140
And we should actively try[br]to stop fighting each other.
0:55:13.140,0:55:18.340
So we are not each other’s enemy.
0:55:18.340,0:55:25.340
applause
0:55:28.120,0:55:30.339
The enemy is something different.
0:55:30.339,0:55:35.510
So we have seen quite a number of people
0:55:35.510,0:55:41.139
who tried to
0:55:41.139,0:55:42.439
find the heretics
0:55:42.439,0:55:46.749
as their main goal in life,[br]as their enemy in life
0:55:46.749,0:55:52.620
and ended up in finding[br]no real purpose any more.
0:55:52.620,0:55:56.849
Because when they[br]solved this one “problem”,
0:55:56.849,0:56:00.440
they still ended up with having[br]not solved the bigger problem.
0:56:00.440,0:56:02.910
And we have seen the same thing happening
0:56:02.910,0:56:06.140
for more and more smaller issues like
0:56:06.140,0:56:09.610
animal rights, people finding out okay...
0:56:09.610,0:56:14.300
or human environment[br]people not finding solutions,
0:56:14.300,0:56:18.329
that they can really bring forward,[br]because the problems are bigger than
0:56:18.329,0:56:22.750
their individual... and smaller[br]problems that they’re trying to fight.
0:56:22.750,0:56:27.310
So we need to look at the bigger picture.[br]And this is essentially the problem
0:56:27.310,0:56:30.949
that we need to solve as[br]a community, as a culture
0:56:30.949,0:56:34.389
to keep focused on the bigger[br]picture and not trying to fight
0:56:34.389,0:56:38.570
our little wars among each other.
0:56:38.570,0:56:41.860
What editor is the best?[br]What Linux distribution is the best?
0:56:41.860,0:56:46.270
What programming language is the best?[br]What way of gendering is the best?
0:56:46.270,0:56:50.850
So these are meaningless fights. This is[br]nothing worth spending your energy on.
0:56:50.850,0:56:57.850
applause
0:57:05.150,0:57:08.979
So, ...
0:57:11.509,0:57:15.610
Rop: We need to be aware[br]that there are money aspects
0:57:15.610,0:57:19.179
and social economic[br]tensions within our culture.
0:57:19.179,0:57:22.470
Things are different than[br]they were 20, 30 years ago
0:57:22.470,0:57:25.959
because the economy of[br]our subculture has changed,
0:57:25.959,0:57:30.300
because our community is[br]much wider and broader.
0:57:30.300,0:57:33.330
Many younger people do not[br]have the kind of stability,
0:57:33.330,0:57:36.369
that many of the now older[br]people in this crowd have.
0:57:36.369,0:57:40.409
Hardcore hardware and software hackers[br]that have established themselves usually
0:57:40.409,0:57:45.300
do not have a problem making a living in[br]today’s project oriented job economy.
0:57:45.300,0:57:48.890
But many who came to our cultural[br]space in the last years are designers,
0:57:48.890,0:57:53.799
they’re artists. They’re[br]from other adjacent fields.
0:57:53.799,0:57:57.290
They’re living more and[br]more precariously, because
0:57:57.290,0:58:01.860
their competition in their fields is much[br]more fierce. We need to take care of this
0:58:01.860,0:58:05.280
at least where we can to keep our[br]community economically accessible.
0:58:05.280,0:58:06.690
applause
0:58:06.690,0:58:12.320
That means...[br]applause
0:58:12.320,0:58:16.030
...we encourage various forms of economic[br]cooperation to make sources of income
0:58:16.030,0:58:19.499
more widely accessible.
0:58:19.499,0:58:24.280
Hackerspaces are not just the new[br]universities, they’re also the new co-ops.
0:58:24.280,0:58:29.279
That means solidarity between people[br]of different skill sets and talents.
0:58:29.279,0:58:32.560
And we need to grow the economic[br]footprint of this community,
0:58:32.560,0:58:35.999
applying more of our thinking[br]and our skills to problems outside of
0:58:35.999,0:58:39.250
the core field of IT: agriculture,[br]
0:58:39.250,0:58:43.720
energy, transportation. In essence,[br]let there not be an interesting field
0:58:43.720,0:58:48.540
out there that does not have a[br]hackerspace dedicated to it.
0:58:48.540,0:58:55.149
applause
0:58:55.149,0:58:58.609
Frank: So, in closing:
0:58:58.609,0:59:02.589
we are headed for some very rough times.
0:59:02.589,0:59:06.909
That’s undeniable but it doesn’t mean[br]that we can not have a lot of fun on that.
0:59:06.909,0:59:10.550
So we know, the surf is good[br]when the waves are getting bigger.
0:59:10.550,0:59:18.550
And...[br]applause
0:59:18.550,0:59:21.320
and sometimes in many places just keeping
0:59:21.320,0:59:26.030
the ideas of political freedom[br]alive is a political act.
0:59:26.030,0:59:29.619
So basically our mission is[br]to keep the torch burning,
0:59:29.619,0:59:34.710
so to keep the ideas of freedom,[br]of individual rights,
0:59:34.710,0:59:39.259
of a society that’s transparent[br]and just alive.
0:59:39.259,0:59:41.930
Our community is uniquely[br]positioned to do that.
0:59:41.930,0:59:45.480
We can build the tools[br]to make the activists
0:59:45.480,0:59:50.499
and political activists capable[br]of still effecting change.
0:59:50.499,0:59:53.529
We are the ones who can develop[br]new forms of communications.
0:59:53.529,0:59:56.469
If you look at this whole[br]podcast universe for instance,
0:59:56.469,0:59:59.199
that was essentially[br]created in our community
0:59:59.199,1:00:01.890
and that is reaching many more people now
1:00:01.890,1:00:06.430
with political education than[br]common forms have been before.
1:00:06.430,1:00:09.240
Or if you look at just the[br]open-source movements
1:00:09.240,1:00:11.530
that are more as running our planet now.
1:00:11.530,1:00:14.219
So we are the people who are responsible
1:00:14.219,1:00:17.019
to a large extent for[br]effecting a better outcome.
1:00:17.019,1:00:21.009
And this is something that we[br]need to take responsibility for.
1:00:21.009,1:00:24.300
Rop: So in closing really: No!
1:00:24.300,1:00:30.330
There will probably not be a revolution[br]magically manifesting itself next Friday.
1:00:30.330,1:00:34.430
Probably also no Zombie Apocalypse.[br]But still we need to be ready
1:00:34.430,1:00:38.670
for rapid and sizeable[br]changes of all sorts of kinds.
1:00:38.670,1:00:43.390
And the only way to be effective in this[br]and probably that’s our mission
1:00:43.390,1:00:47.700
as a community is to play for the long[br]term, develop a culture that is more fun
1:00:47.700,1:00:51.520
and more attractive to more people,[br]develop infrastructure and turn around
1:00:51.520,1:00:54.210
and offer that infrastructure[br]to people that need it.
1:00:54.210,1:00:56.840
This is not a thing we do as[br]a hobby so much any more.
1:00:56.840,1:01:01.049
It’s also something we do for people[br]that need this infrastructure.
1:01:01.049,1:01:05.589
Create a culture that’s capable of putting[br]up a fight, that gives its inhabitants
1:01:05.589,1:01:09.869
a sense of purpose, so forth,[br]usefulness and enlarge that culture
1:01:09.869,1:01:13.770
over time, until it becomes a viable[br]alternative to the status quo.
1:01:13.770,1:01:15.390
I guess that was it.
1:01:15.390,1:01:17.010
Frank: Thank you![br]Rop: Thank you!
1:01:17.010,1:01:22.239
applause
1:01:22.239,1:01:29.459
postroll music
1:01:29.459,1:01:32.789
subtitles created[br]by c3subtitles.de in 2016