WEBVTT 00:00:01.738 --> 00:00:03.773 Chris Anderson: Dr. Jane Goodall, welcome. 00:00:04.880 --> 00:00:06.048 Jane Goodall: Thank you, 00:00:06.072 --> 00:00:10.092 and I think, you know, we couldn't have a complete interview 00:00:10.116 --> 00:00:12.250 unless people know Mr. H is with me, 00:00:12.274 --> 00:00:14.419 because everybody knows Mr. H. 00:00:16.165 --> 00:00:17.606 CA: Hello, Mr. H. 00:00:18.652 --> 00:00:20.929 In your TED talk 17 years ago, 00:00:20.953 --> 00:00:26.231 you warned us about the dangers of humans crowding out the natural world. 00:00:26.696 --> 00:00:28.573 Is there any sense in which you feel 00:00:28.597 --> 00:00:32.124 that the current pandemic is kind of, nature striking back? 00:00:32.490 --> 00:00:37.577 JG: It's very, very clear that these zoonotic diseases, 00:00:37.601 --> 00:00:42.515 like the corona and HIV/AIDS 00:00:42.539 --> 00:00:46.895 and all sorts of other diseases that we catch from animals, 00:00:46.919 --> 00:00:50.077 that's partly to do with destruction of the environment, 00:00:50.101 --> 00:00:54.071 which, as animals lose habitat, they get crowded together 00:00:54.095 --> 00:00:58.371 and sometimes that means that a virus from a reservoir species, 00:00:58.395 --> 00:01:01.426 which lived harmoniously for maybe hundreds of years, 00:01:01.450 --> 00:01:03.489 jumps into a new species, 00:01:03.513 --> 00:01:08.649 then you also get animals being pushed into closer contact with humans. 00:01:08.673 --> 00:01:14.641 And sometimes one of these animals that [unclear] can -- 00:01:14.665 --> 00:01:18.895 you know, provides the opportunity for virus to jump into people, 00:01:18.919 --> 00:01:22.672 and create a new disease, like COVID-19. 00:01:22.990 --> 00:01:25.005 And in addition to that, 00:01:25.029 --> 00:01:27.871 we are so disrespecting animals. 00:01:27.895 --> 00:01:29.506 We hunt them, 00:01:29.530 --> 00:01:31.863 we kill them, we eat them, 00:01:31.887 --> 00:01:33.394 we traffic them, 00:01:33.418 --> 00:01:39.807 we send them off to the wild-animal markets 00:01:39.831 --> 00:01:40.995 in Asia, 00:01:41.019 --> 00:01:44.419 where they're in terrible, cramped conditions, in tiny cages, 00:01:44.443 --> 00:01:48.783 with people being contaminated with blood and urine and feces, 00:01:48.807 --> 00:01:53.434 ideal conditions for a virus to spill from an animal to an animal, 00:01:53.458 --> 00:01:55.196 or an animal to a person. 00:01:55.220 --> 00:01:59.490 CA: I'd love to just dip backwards in time for a bit, 00:01:59.514 --> 00:02:01.387 because your story is so extraordinary. 00:02:01.411 --> 00:02:05.521 I mean, despite the arguably even more sexist attitudes of the 1960s, 00:02:05.545 --> 00:02:08.283 somehow you were able to break through 00:02:08.307 --> 00:02:11.648 and become one of the world's leading scientists, 00:02:11.672 --> 00:02:15.172 discovering this astonishing series of facts about chimpanzees, 00:02:15.196 --> 00:02:17.863 such as their tool use and so much more. 00:02:18.283 --> 00:02:20.895 What was it about you, do you think, 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:23.370 that allowed you to make such a breakthrough? 00:02:23.982 --> 00:02:27.227 JG: Well, the thing is, I was born loving animals, 00:02:27.251 --> 00:02:30.395 and the most important thing was, I had a very supportive mother. 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:33.058 She didn't get mad when she found earth worms in my bed, 00:02:33.082 --> 00:02:35.577 she just said they better be in the garden. 00:02:35.601 --> 00:02:38.299 And she didn't get mad when I disappeared for four hours 00:02:38.323 --> 00:02:41.252 and she called the police, and I was sitting in the hen house, 00:02:41.276 --> 00:02:44.767 because nobody would tell me where the hole was where the egg came out. 00:02:44.791 --> 00:02:47.046 I had no dream of being a scientist, 00:02:47.070 --> 00:02:49.481 because women didn't do that sort of thing. 00:02:49.505 --> 00:02:52.735 In fact, there weren't any man doing it back then, either. 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:54.696 And everybody laughed at me except Mom, 00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:58.388 who said, "If you really want this, you're going to have to work awfully hard, 00:02:58.412 --> 00:03:00.134 take advantage of every opportunity, 00:03:00.158 --> 00:03:02.372 if you don't give up, maybe you'll find a way." 00:03:02.396 --> 00:03:06.531 CA: And somehow, you were able to kind of, earn the trust of chimpanzees 00:03:06.555 --> 00:03:10.278 in the way that no one else had. 00:03:11.176 --> 00:03:15.803 Looking back, what were the most exciting moments that you discovered 00:03:15.827 --> 00:03:19.436 or what is it that people still don't get about chimpanzees? 00:03:20.293 --> 00:03:24.293 JG: Well, the thing is, you see things nobody else had, 00:03:24.317 --> 00:03:27.245 get their trust -- nobody else had tried. 00:03:27.269 --> 00:03:28.419 Quite honestly. 00:03:29.026 --> 00:03:33.989 So, basically, I used the same techniques 00:03:34.013 --> 00:03:38.306 that I had to study the animals around my home when I was a child. 00:03:38.624 --> 00:03:40.172 Just sitting, patiently, 00:03:40.196 --> 00:03:42.633 not trying to get too close too quickly, 00:03:42.657 --> 00:03:47.244 but that was awful, because the money was only for six months. 00:03:47.268 --> 00:03:50.435 I mean, you can imagine how difficult to get money for a young girl 00:03:50.459 --> 00:03:51.624 with no degree, 00:03:51.648 --> 00:03:55.100 to go and do something as bizarre as sitting in a forest. 00:03:55.471 --> 00:03:56.939 And you know, finally, 00:03:56.963 --> 00:04:00.994 we got money for six months from an American philanthropist, 00:04:01.018 --> 00:04:04.916 and I knew with time I'd get the chimps's trust, 00:04:04.940 --> 00:04:06.482 but did I have time? 00:04:06.506 --> 00:04:11.014 And weeks became months and then finally, after about four months, 00:04:11.038 --> 00:04:13.807 one chimpanzee began to lose his fear 00:04:13.831 --> 00:04:16.932 and it was he that on one occasion I saw, 00:04:16.956 --> 00:04:20.125 I still wasn't really close, but I had my binoculars, 00:04:20.149 --> 00:04:24.857 and I saw him using and making tools to fish for termites. 00:04:25.341 --> 00:04:28.143 And although I wasn't terribly surprised, 00:04:28.167 --> 00:04:32.158 because I've read about things captive chimps could do, 00:04:32.182 --> 00:04:34.164 but I knew that science believed 00:04:34.188 --> 00:04:37.255 that humans, and only humans used and made tools. 00:04:37.601 --> 00:04:40.799 And I knew how excited Leakey would be. 00:04:40.823 --> 00:04:42.553 And it was that observation 00:04:42.577 --> 00:04:45.648 that enabled him to go to the National Geographic, 00:04:45.672 --> 00:04:49.720 and they said, "OK, we'll continue to support the research," 00:04:49.744 --> 00:04:53.910 and they sent Hugo Van Lawick, the photographer-filmmaker, 00:04:53.934 --> 00:04:56.569 to record what I was seeing. 00:04:56.593 --> 00:05:01.005 So a lot of scientists didn't want to believe the tool-using. 00:05:01.029 --> 00:05:04.101 In fact, one of them said I must have taught the chimps. 00:05:04.125 --> 00:05:05.997 (Laughter) 00:05:06.021 --> 00:05:08.918 Since I couldn't get near them, it would have been a miracle. 00:05:08.942 --> 00:05:11.547 But anyway, once they saw Hugo's film 00:05:11.571 --> 00:05:15.998 and that with all my descriptions of their behavior, 00:05:16.022 --> 00:05:19.362 the scientists had to start changing their minds. 00:05:19.386 --> 00:05:22.006 CA: And since then, numerous other discoveries, 00:05:22.030 --> 00:05:26.609 that placed chimpanzees much closer to humans than people cared to believe, 00:05:26.633 --> 00:05:29.990 I think I saw you say at one point that they have a sense of humor. 00:05:30.014 --> 00:05:32.214 How have you seen that expressed? 00:05:32.703 --> 00:05:36.947 JG: Well, you see it when they're playing games, 00:05:36.971 --> 00:05:39.407 and there's a bigger one playing with a little one, 00:05:39.431 --> 00:05:41.804 and he's trailing a vine around a tree. 00:05:41.828 --> 00:05:44.688 And every time the little one is about to catch it, 00:05:44.712 --> 00:05:46.664 the bigger one pulls it away, 00:05:46.688 --> 00:05:48.474 and the little one starts crying 00:05:48.498 --> 00:05:50.260 and the big one starts laughing. 00:05:50.284 --> 00:05:51.758 So, you know. 00:05:54.411 --> 00:05:59.307 CA: And then, Jane, you observed something much more troubling, 00:05:59.331 --> 00:06:04.559 which was these instances of chimpanzee gangs, 00:06:04.583 --> 00:06:10.034 tribes, groups, being brutally violent to each other. 00:06:10.709 --> 00:06:14.019 I'm curious how you process that? 00:06:14.369 --> 00:06:17.589 And whether it made you, kind of, 00:06:17.613 --> 00:06:20.162 I don't know, depressed about us, we're close to them, 00:06:20.186 --> 00:06:23.993 did it make you feel that violence is irredeemably 00:06:24.017 --> 00:06:27.365 part of all the great apes, somehow? 00:06:28.381 --> 00:06:30.682 JG: Well, it obviously is. 00:06:30.990 --> 00:06:35.633 And my first encounter with human, what I call evil, 00:06:35.657 --> 00:06:37.291 was at the end of the war, 00:06:37.315 --> 00:06:39.743 and the pictures from the holocaust. 00:06:40.124 --> 00:06:42.735 And you know, that really shocked me. 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:44.037 That changed who I was. 00:06:44.061 --> 00:06:46.061 I was 10 I think, at the time. 00:06:46.362 --> 00:06:48.870 And when the chimpanzees, 00:06:48.894 --> 00:06:52.014 when I realized they have this dark, brutal side, 00:06:52.038 --> 00:06:54.545 I thought they were like us but nicer. 00:06:54.569 --> 00:06:57.156 And then I realized they're even more like us 00:06:57.180 --> 00:06:58.696 than I had thought. 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:02.680 And at that time, in the early '70s, 00:07:02.704 --> 00:07:03.910 it was very strange, 00:07:03.934 --> 00:07:05.577 aggression, there was a big thing 00:07:05.601 --> 00:07:09.315 about is aggression innate or learned. 00:07:09.744 --> 00:07:12.005 And it became political. 00:07:12.458 --> 00:07:15.896 And it was, I don't know, it was a very strange time, 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:17.578 and I was coming out, saying, 00:07:17.602 --> 00:07:20.134 "No, I think aggression is definitely 00:07:20.158 --> 00:07:24.268 part of our inherited repertoire of behaviors." 00:07:24.292 --> 00:07:29.934 And I asked a very respected scientist what he really thought, 00:07:29.958 --> 00:07:32.355 because he was coming out on the clean slate, 00:07:32.379 --> 00:07:33.870 aggression is learned, 00:07:33.894 --> 00:07:38.006 and he said, "Jane, I'd rather not talk about what I really think." 00:07:38.030 --> 00:07:41.905 That was a big shock as far as science was concerned for me. 00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:47.350 CA: I was brought up to believe a world of all things bright and beautiful. 00:07:47.374 --> 00:07:52.895 You know, numerous beautiful films of butterflies and bees and flowers, 00:07:52.919 --> 00:07:55.863 and you know, nature is this gorgeous landscape. 00:07:55.887 --> 00:08:01.905 And many environmentalists often seem to take the stance, 00:08:01.929 --> 00:08:06.049 "Yes, nature is pure, nature is beautiful, humans are bad," 00:08:06.073 --> 00:08:08.731 but then you have the kind of observations that you see, 00:08:08.755 --> 00:08:11.585 when you actually look at any part of nature in more detail, 00:08:11.609 --> 00:08:13.958 you see things to be terrified by, honestly. 00:08:13.982 --> 00:08:16.410 What do you make of nature, how do you think of it, 00:08:16.434 --> 00:08:18.831 how should we think of it? 00:08:18.855 --> 00:08:20.840 JG: Nature is, you know, 00:08:20.864 --> 00:08:24.807 I mean, you think of the whole spectrum of evolution, 00:08:24.831 --> 00:08:28.521 and there's something about going to a pristine place, 00:08:28.545 --> 00:08:32.696 and Africa was very pristine when I was young. 00:08:33.180 --> 00:08:36.117 And there were animals everywhere. 00:08:36.141 --> 00:08:40.029 And I never liked the fact that lions killed, 00:08:40.053 --> 00:08:42.578 they have to, I mean, that's what they do, 00:08:42.602 --> 00:08:46.395 if they didn't kill animals, they would die. 00:08:46.419 --> 00:08:50.108 And the big difference between them and us, I think, 00:08:50.132 --> 00:08:55.535 is that they do what they do because that's what they have to do. 00:08:56.061 --> 00:08:58.791 And we can plan to do things. 00:08:59.402 --> 00:09:01.196 Our plans are very different. 00:09:01.220 --> 00:09:05.244 We can plan to cut down a whole forest 00:09:05.268 --> 00:09:07.743 because we want to sell the timber, 00:09:07.767 --> 00:09:10.109 or because we want to build another shopping mall, 00:09:10.133 --> 00:09:11.315 something like that. 00:09:11.339 --> 00:09:16.150 So our destruction of nature and our warfare, 00:09:16.174 --> 00:09:19.984 we're capable of evil because we can sit comfortably 00:09:20.008 --> 00:09:22.945 and plan the torture of somebody far away. 00:09:22.969 --> 00:09:24.147 That's evil. 00:09:24.171 --> 00:09:27.907 Chimpanzees have a sort of primitive war, 00:09:27.931 --> 00:09:29.466 and they can be very aggressive, 00:09:29.490 --> 00:09:30.879 but it's of the moment. 00:09:30.903 --> 00:09:32.410 It's how they feel. 00:09:32.434 --> 00:09:34.299 It's response to an emotion. 00:09:34.751 --> 00:09:38.481 CA: So your observation of the sophistication of chimpanzees 00:09:38.505 --> 00:09:41.907 doesn't go as far as what some people would want to say 00:09:41.931 --> 00:09:43.649 is the sort of the human superpower, 00:09:43.673 --> 00:09:49.583 of being able to really simulate the future in our minds in great detail 00:09:49.607 --> 00:09:52.377 and make long-term plans. 00:09:52.401 --> 00:09:57.752 And act to encourage each other to achieve those long-term plans. 00:09:57.776 --> 00:10:01.236 That that feels, even to someone who spent so much time with chimpanzees, 00:10:01.260 --> 00:10:04.423 that feels like a fundamentally different skill set 00:10:04.447 --> 00:10:06.609 that we just have to take responsibility for 00:10:06.633 --> 00:10:09.100 and use much more wisely than we do. 00:10:09.466 --> 00:10:11.347 JG: Yes, and I personally think, 00:10:11.371 --> 00:10:13.664 I mean, there's a lot of discussion about this, 00:10:13.688 --> 00:10:17.601 but I think it's a fact that we developed the way of communication 00:10:17.625 --> 00:10:19.410 that you and I are using. 00:10:19.434 --> 00:10:21.506 And because we have words, 00:10:21.530 --> 00:10:24.942 I mean, animal communication is way more sophisticated 00:10:24.966 --> 00:10:26.133 than we used to think. 00:10:26.157 --> 00:10:28.220 And chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, 00:10:28.244 --> 00:10:31.723 can learn human sign language of the Deaf. 00:10:32.792 --> 00:10:38.244 But we sort of grow up speaking whatever language it is. 00:10:38.268 --> 00:10:41.572 So I can tell you about things that you've never heard of. 00:10:41.903 --> 00:10:44.169 And a chimpanzee couldn't do that. 00:10:44.481 --> 00:10:49.710 And we can teach our children about abstract things. 00:10:49.734 --> 00:10:51.552 And chimpanzees couldn't do that. 00:10:51.576 --> 00:10:55.250 So yes, chimpanzees can do all sorts of clever things, 00:10:55.274 --> 00:10:59.902 and so can elephants and so can crows and so can octopuses, 00:10:59.926 --> 00:11:03.508 but we design rockets that go off to another planet, 00:11:03.532 --> 00:11:06.085 and little robots taking photographs, 00:11:06.109 --> 00:11:10.887 and we've designed this extraordinary way of you and me talking 00:11:10.911 --> 00:11:13.053 in our different parts of the world. 00:11:13.077 --> 00:11:14.712 When I was young, when I grew up, 00:11:14.736 --> 00:11:17.553 there was no TV, there were no cell phones, 00:11:17.577 --> 00:11:19.418 there was no computer. 00:11:19.442 --> 00:11:20.903 It was such a different world, 00:11:20.927 --> 00:11:24.537 I had a pencil, pen and notebook, that was it. 00:11:24.561 --> 00:11:27.374 CA: So just going back to this question about nature, 00:11:27.398 --> 00:11:28.990 because I think about this a lot, 00:11:29.014 --> 00:11:32.266 and I struggle with this, honestly. 00:11:33.219 --> 00:11:37.403 So much of your work, so much of so many people who I respect, 00:11:37.427 --> 00:11:43.887 is about this passion for trying not to screw up the natural world. 00:11:44.236 --> 00:11:47.098 So is it possible, is it healthy, is it essential, perhaps, 00:11:47.122 --> 00:11:51.963 to simultaneously accept that many aspects of nature 00:11:51.987 --> 00:11:53.942 are terrifying, 00:11:53.966 --> 00:11:56.831 but also, I don't know, that it's awesome, 00:11:56.855 --> 00:12:02.038 and that some of the awesomeness comes from it's potential to be terrifying 00:12:02.062 --> 00:12:06.934 and that it is also just breathtakingly beautiful, 00:12:06.958 --> 00:12:10.704 and that we cannot be ourselves, because we are part of nature, 00:12:10.728 --> 00:12:13.130 we cannot be whole 00:12:13.154 --> 00:12:17.423 unless we somehow embrace it and are part of it. 00:12:17.447 --> 00:12:21.776 Help me with the language, Jane, on how that relationship should be. 00:12:22.236 --> 00:12:26.332 JG: Well, I think one of the problems is, you know, as we developed our intellect, 00:12:26.356 --> 00:12:29.008 and we became better and better 00:12:29.032 --> 00:12:32.442 at modifying the environment for our own use, 00:12:32.466 --> 00:12:35.265 and creating fields and growing crops 00:12:35.289 --> 00:12:38.473 where it used to be forest or woodland, 00:12:38.497 --> 00:12:41.312 and you know, we won't go into that now, 00:12:41.336 --> 00:12:44.896 but we have this ability to change nature. 00:12:44.920 --> 00:12:49.332 And as we've moved more into towns and cities, 00:12:49.356 --> 00:12:53.355 and relied more on technology, 00:12:53.379 --> 00:12:56.974 many people feel so divorced from the natural world. 00:12:56.998 --> 00:12:59.577 And there's hundreds, thousands of children 00:12:59.601 --> 00:13:01.299 growing up in inner cities, 00:13:01.323 --> 00:13:04.069 where there basically isn't any nature, 00:13:04.093 --> 00:13:08.847 which is why this movement now to green our cities is so important. 00:13:09.165 --> 00:13:11.515 And you know, they've done experiments, 00:13:11.539 --> 00:13:14.807 I think it was in Chicago, I'm not quite sure, 00:13:14.831 --> 00:13:17.878 and there were various empty lots 00:13:17.902 --> 00:13:21.696 in a very violent part of town. 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.759 So in some of those areas they made it green, 00:13:24.783 --> 00:13:29.521 they put trees and flowers and things, shrubs in these vacant lots. 00:13:29.823 --> 00:13:32.457 And the crime rate went right down. 00:13:33.212 --> 00:13:36.243 So then of course, they put trees in the other half. 00:13:36.934 --> 00:13:38.871 So it just shows, and also, 00:13:38.895 --> 00:13:41.656 there have been studies done showing that children 00:13:41.680 --> 00:13:45.926 really need green nature for good psychological development. 00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:50.109 But we are, as you say, part of nature. 00:13:50.133 --> 00:13:54.347 and we disrespect it, as we are, 00:13:54.371 --> 00:13:57.309 and that is so terrible for our children 00:13:57.333 --> 00:13:58.816 and their children's children, 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:02.846 because we rely on nature for clean air, clean water, 00:14:02.870 --> 00:14:06.015 for regulating climate and rainfall. 00:14:06.474 --> 00:14:09.227 Look what we've done, look at the climate crisis. 00:14:09.251 --> 00:14:10.403 That's us. 00:14:10.427 --> 00:14:11.585 We did that. 00:14:11.609 --> 00:14:13.244 CA: So a little over 30 years ago, 00:14:13.268 --> 00:14:18.998 you made this shift from scientist mainly to activist mainly, I guess. 00:14:19.022 --> 00:14:20.172 Why? 00:14:21.323 --> 00:14:26.827 JG: Conference in 1986, scientific one, I got my PhD by then 00:14:26.851 --> 00:14:30.566 and it was to find out how chimp behavior differed, if it did, 00:14:30.590 --> 00:14:32.129 from one environment to another. 00:14:32.153 --> 00:14:34.553 There were six study sites across Africa. 00:14:34.577 --> 00:14:38.276 So we thought, let’s bring these scientists together 00:14:38.300 --> 00:14:39.664 and explore this, 00:14:39.688 --> 00:14:41.228 which was fascinating. 00:14:41.252 --> 00:14:43.882 But we also had a session on conservation, 00:14:43.906 --> 00:14:47.771 and a session on conditions in some captive situations 00:14:47.795 --> 00:14:49.508 like medical research. 00:14:49.906 --> 00:14:54.172 And those two sessions were so shocking to me. 00:14:54.196 --> 00:14:56.776 I went to the conference a a scientist, 00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:58.339 and I left as an activist. 00:14:58.363 --> 00:15:02.188 I didn't make the decision, something happened inside me. 00:15:02.212 --> 00:15:05.728 CA: So you spent the last 34 years 00:15:05.752 --> 00:15:08.395 sort of tirelessly campaigning for a better relationship 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:11.743 between people and nature. 00:15:12.680 --> 00:15:17.555 What should that relationship look like? 00:15:18.984 --> 00:15:23.794 JG: Well, you know, again you come up with all these problems. 00:15:23.818 --> 00:15:26.595 People have to have space to live. 00:15:27.616 --> 00:15:29.736 But I think the problem is 00:15:29.760 --> 00:15:33.298 that we've become, in the affluent societies, 00:15:33.322 --> 00:15:34.736 too greedy. 00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:40.013 I mean, honestly, who needs four houses with huge grounds? 00:15:40.037 --> 00:15:43.300 And why do we need yet another shopping mall? 00:15:43.716 --> 00:15:45.418 And so on and so on. 00:15:45.442 --> 00:15:50.430 So we are looking at short-term economic benefit, 00:15:50.454 --> 00:15:53.506 money has become a sort of god to worship, 00:15:53.530 --> 00:15:57.142 as we lose all spiritual connection with the natural world. 00:15:57.609 --> 00:16:03.370 And so we're looking for short-term monetary gain, or power, 00:16:03.394 --> 00:16:05.998 rather than the health of the planet 00:16:06.022 --> 00:16:08.088 and the future of our children. 00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:11.713 We don't seem to care about that anymore. 00:16:12.122 --> 00:16:14.455 That's why I'll never stop fighting. 00:16:15.233 --> 00:16:19.077 CA: I mean, in your work specifically on chimpanzee conservation, 00:16:19.101 --> 00:16:24.260 you've made it practice to put people at the center of that, 00:16:24.284 --> 00:16:26.379 local people, to engage them. 00:16:26.403 --> 00:16:27.586 How has that worked 00:16:27.610 --> 00:16:29.847 and do you think that's an essential idea 00:16:29.871 --> 00:16:32.958 if we're to succeed in protecting the planet? 00:16:32.982 --> 00:16:35.443 JG: You know, after that famous conference, 00:16:35.467 --> 00:16:38.998 I thought, well, I must learn more about why chimps are vanishing in Africa 00:16:39.022 --> 00:16:40.909 and what's happening to the forest. 00:16:40.933 --> 00:16:45.974 So I got a bit of money together and went out to visit six range countries. 00:16:45.998 --> 00:16:50.012 And learned a lot about the problems faced by chimps, you know, 00:16:50.036 --> 00:16:52.815 hunting for bush meat and the live animal trade 00:16:52.839 --> 00:16:54.508 and caught in snares 00:16:54.532 --> 00:16:58.942 and human populations growing and needing more land 00:16:58.966 --> 00:17:02.002 for their crops and their cattle and their villages. 00:17:02.723 --> 00:17:07.454 But I was also learning about the plight faced by so many people. 00:17:07.478 --> 00:17:11.017 The absolute poverty, the lack of health and education, 00:17:11.041 --> 00:17:13.040 the degradation of the land. 00:17:13.530 --> 00:17:18.251 And it came to a head when I flew over the tiny Gombe National Park. 00:17:18.553 --> 00:17:22.828 It had been part of this equatorial forest belt right across Africa 00:17:22.852 --> 00:17:24.003 to the west coast, 00:17:24.027 --> 00:17:25.423 and in 1990, 00:17:25.447 --> 00:17:29.089 it was just this little island of forest, just tiny national park. 00:17:29.113 --> 00:17:31.018 All around, the hills were bare. 00:17:31.042 --> 00:17:32.776 And that's when it hit me. 00:17:32.800 --> 00:17:34.593 If we don't do something 00:17:34.617 --> 00:17:36.884 to help the people find ways of living 00:17:36.908 --> 00:17:39.506 without destroying their environment, 00:17:39.530 --> 00:17:42.243 we can't even try to save the chimps. 00:17:42.267 --> 00:17:45.977 So the Jane Goodall Institute began this program "Take Care," 00:17:46.001 --> 00:17:47.553 we call it "TACARE." 00:17:48.030 --> 00:17:51.966 And it's our method of community-based conservation, 00:17:51.990 --> 00:17:53.466 totally holistic. 00:17:54.109 --> 00:17:57.343 And we've now put the tools of conservation 00:17:57.367 --> 00:17:59.207 into the hand of the villagers, 00:17:59.231 --> 00:18:04.332 because most Tanzanian wild chimps are not in protected areas, 00:18:04.356 --> 00:18:07.141 they're just in the village forest reserves. 00:18:07.165 --> 00:18:12.147 And so, they now go and measure the health of their forest. 00:18:12.473 --> 00:18:14.672 They've understood now 00:18:14.696 --> 00:18:18.266 that protecting the forest isn't just for wildlife, 00:18:18.290 --> 00:18:19.783 it's their own future. 00:18:19.807 --> 00:18:22.215 That they need the forest. 00:18:22.239 --> 00:18:23.588 And they're very proud. 00:18:23.612 --> 00:18:25.721 The volunteers go to workshops, 00:18:25.745 --> 00:18:27.810 they learn how to use smart phones, 00:18:27.834 --> 00:18:32.246 they learn how to upload into platform and the cloud. 00:18:32.644 --> 00:18:35.493 And so it's all transparent. 00:18:35.517 --> 00:18:37.636 And the trees have come back, 00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:39.739 there's no bare hills anymore. 00:18:39.763 --> 00:18:44.475 They agreed to make a buffer zone around Gombe, 00:18:44.499 --> 00:18:47.912 so the chimps have more forest than they did in 1990. 00:18:47.936 --> 00:18:49.864 They're opening up corridors of forest 00:18:49.888 --> 00:18:54.832 to link the scattered chimp groups so that you don't get too much inbreeding. 00:18:55.291 --> 00:18:58.450 So yes, it's worked, and it's in six other countries now. 00:18:58.474 --> 00:18:59.639 Same thing. 00:18:59.663 --> 00:19:05.347 CA: I mean, you've been this extraordinary tireless voice, all around the world, 00:19:05.371 --> 00:19:07.299 just traveling so much, 00:19:07.323 --> 00:19:10.610 speaking everywhere, inspiring people everywhere. 00:19:10.634 --> 00:19:15.604 How on earth do you find the energy, 00:19:15.628 --> 00:19:17.279 you know, the fire to do that, 00:19:17.303 --> 00:19:20.462 because that is exhausting to do, 00:19:20.486 --> 00:19:23.026 every meeting with lots of people, 00:19:23.050 --> 00:19:25.118 it is just physically exhausting, 00:19:25.142 --> 00:19:28.156 and yet, here you are, still doing it. 00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:30.114 How are you doing this, Jane? 00:19:31.061 --> 00:19:36.378 JG: Well, I suppose, you know, I'm obstinate, I don't like giving up, 00:19:36.402 --> 00:19:41.664 but I'm not going to let these CEOs of big companies 00:19:41.688 --> 00:19:43.228 who are destroying the forests, 00:19:43.252 --> 00:19:49.811 or the politicians who are unraveling all the protections that were put in place 00:19:49.835 --> 00:19:51.130 by previous presidents, 00:19:51.154 --> 00:19:53.273 and you know who I'm talking about. 00:19:53.995 --> 00:19:56.130 And you know, I'll go on fighting, 00:19:56.154 --> 00:20:00.279 I care about, I'm passionate about the wild life. 00:20:00.303 --> 00:20:02.993 I'm passionate about the natural world. 00:20:03.017 --> 00:20:07.445 I love forests, it hurts me to see them damaged. 00:20:07.469 --> 00:20:10.069 And I care passionately about children. 00:20:10.394 --> 00:20:12.433 And we're stealing their future. 00:20:12.457 --> 00:20:14.202 And I'm not going to give up. 00:20:14.226 --> 00:20:19.161 So I guess I'm blessed with good genes, that's a gift, 00:20:19.185 --> 00:20:22.784 and the other gift, which I discovered I had, 00:20:22.808 --> 00:20:24.245 was communication, 00:20:24.269 --> 00:20:26.469 whether it's writing or speaking. 00:20:26.912 --> 00:20:28.975 And so, you know, 00:20:28.999 --> 00:20:31.875 if going around like this wasn't working, 00:20:31.899 --> 00:20:35.006 but every time I do a lecture, 00:20:35.030 --> 00:20:36.373 people come up and say, 00:20:36.397 --> 00:20:38.771 "Well, I had given up, but you've inspired me, 00:20:38.795 --> 00:20:40.795 I promise to do my bit." 00:20:41.103 --> 00:20:45.982 And we have our youth program "Roots and Shoots" now in 65 countries 00:20:46.006 --> 00:20:47.553 and growing fast, 00:20:47.577 --> 00:20:48.731 all ages, 00:20:48.744 --> 00:20:52.006 all choosing projects to help people, animals, environment, 00:20:52.030 --> 00:20:54.641 rolling up their sleeves and taking action. 00:20:54.665 --> 00:20:57.807 And you know, they look at you with shining eyes, 00:20:57.831 --> 00:21:00.316 wanting to tell Dr. Jane what they've been doing 00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:02.115 to make the world a better place. 00:21:02.139 --> 00:21:03.996 How can I let them down? 00:21:04.020 --> 00:21:07.241 CA: I mean, as you look at the planet's future, 00:21:07.265 --> 00:21:08.873 what worries you most, actually, 00:21:08.897 --> 00:21:12.289 what scares you most about where we're at? 00:21:13.733 --> 00:21:19.113 JG: Well, the fact that we have a small window of time, I believe, 00:21:19.137 --> 00:21:22.661 when we can at least start healing some of the harm, 00:21:22.685 --> 00:21:25.439 and slowing down climate change. 00:21:25.741 --> 00:21:27.725 But it is closing, 00:21:27.749 --> 00:21:32.915 and we've seen what happens with the lockdown around the world 00:21:32.939 --> 00:21:34.998 because of COVID-19: 00:21:35.022 --> 00:21:37.236 clear skies over cities, 00:21:37.260 --> 00:21:41.101 some people breathing clean air that they've never breathed before, 00:21:41.125 --> 00:21:44.042 and looking up at the shining skies at night, 00:21:44.066 --> 00:21:46.701 which they've never seen properly before. 00:21:46.725 --> 00:21:49.058 And you know, 00:21:49.082 --> 00:21:52.161 so what worries me most 00:21:52.185 --> 00:21:55.458 is how to get enough people, 00:21:55.482 --> 00:21:57.776 people understand, but they're not taking action, 00:21:57.800 --> 00:22:00.434 how to get enough people to take action? 00:22:00.458 --> 00:22:06.175 CA: National Geographic just launched this extraordinary film about you, 00:22:06.199 --> 00:22:09.156 highlighting your work over six decades. 00:22:09.802 --> 00:22:13.199 It's titled "Jane Goodall: The Hope." 00:22:14.042 --> 00:22:16.025 So what is the hope, Jane? 00:22:16.049 --> 00:22:17.200 JG: Well, the hope, 00:22:17.224 --> 00:22:19.265 my greatest hope is all these young people. 00:22:19.289 --> 00:22:21.972 I mean, in China, people will come up and say, 00:22:21.996 --> 00:22:24.161 "Well, of course I care about the environment, 00:22:24.185 --> 00:22:26.440 I was in "Roots and Shoots" in primary school." 00:22:26.464 --> 00:22:29.781 And you know, we have "Roots and Shoots" just hanging on to the values 00:22:29.805 --> 00:22:34.596 and they're so enthusiastic once they know the problems 00:22:34.620 --> 00:22:36.458 and they're empowered to take action, 00:22:36.482 --> 00:22:40.682 they are clearing the streams, removing invasive species humanely. 00:22:41.966 --> 00:22:43.680 And they have so many ideas. 00:22:43.704 --> 00:22:48.395 And then there's, you know, this extraordinary intellect of ours. 00:22:48.419 --> 00:22:52.458 We're beginning to use it to come up with technology 00:22:52.482 --> 00:22:55.347 that really will help us to live in greater harmony, 00:22:55.371 --> 00:22:56.967 and in our individual lives, 00:22:56.991 --> 00:23:01.109 let's think about the consequences of what we do each day. 00:23:01.133 --> 00:23:03.220 What do we buy, where did it come from, 00:23:03.244 --> 00:23:04.394 how was it made? 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:07.752 Did it harm the environment, was it cruel to animals? 00:23:07.776 --> 00:23:10.125 Is it cheap because of child slave labor? 00:23:10.149 --> 00:23:12.037 Make ethical choices. 00:23:12.061 --> 00:23:15.545 Which you can't do if you're living in poverty, by the way. 00:23:15.569 --> 00:23:18.286 And then finally, this indomitable spirit 00:23:18.310 --> 00:23:20.913 of people who tackle what seems impossible 00:23:20.937 --> 00:23:23.492 and won't give up, 00:23:23.516 --> 00:23:25.983 can't give up when you have those ... 00:23:26.515 --> 00:23:29.028 But you know, there are things that I can't fight, 00:23:29.052 --> 00:23:31.639 I can't fight corruption. 00:23:32.822 --> 00:23:36.965 I can't fight military regimes and dictators. 00:23:38.608 --> 00:23:40.472 So I can only do what I can do, 00:23:40.496 --> 00:23:43.910 and if we all do the bits that we can do, 00:23:43.934 --> 00:23:47.862 surely that makes a whole that eventually will win out. 00:23:47.886 --> 00:23:49.236 CA: So, last question, Jane. 00:23:49.260 --> 00:23:51.561 If there was one idea, one thought, 00:23:51.585 --> 00:23:56.307 one seed you could plant in the minds of everyone watching this, 00:23:56.331 --> 00:23:57.712 what would that be? 00:23:58.198 --> 00:24:02.346 JG: You know, just remember that every day you live, 00:24:02.370 --> 00:24:04.711 you make an impact on the planet. 00:24:04.735 --> 00:24:07.036 You can't help making an impact. 00:24:07.060 --> 00:24:10.600 And at least, unless you're living in extreme poverty, 00:24:10.624 --> 00:24:13.864 you have a choice as to what sort of impact you make. 00:24:13.888 --> 00:24:15.815 Even in poverty you have a choice, 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.347 but when we are more affluent, we have a greater choice. 00:24:19.736 --> 00:24:22.652 And if we all make ethical choices, 00:24:22.676 --> 00:24:25.795 then we start moving towards a world 00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:30.279 that will be not quite so desperate to leave to our great-grandchildren. 00:24:30.927 --> 00:24:35.180 That's, I think, something for everybody. 00:24:35.712 --> 00:24:38.696 Because a lot of people understand what's happening, 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.458 but they feel helpless and hopeless, and what can they do, 00:24:41.482 --> 00:24:44.077 so they do nothing and they become apathetic. 00:24:44.101 --> 00:24:46.878 And that is a huge danger, apathy. 00:24:47.746 --> 00:24:49.928 CA: Dr. Jane Goodall, wow. 00:24:49.952 --> 00:24:53.952 I really want to thank you for your extraordinary life, 00:24:53.976 --> 00:24:55.968 for all that you've done, 00:24:55.992 --> 00:24:57.865 and for spending this time with us now. 00:24:57.889 --> 00:24:59.286 Thank you. 00:24:59.310 --> 00:25:00.460 JG: Thank you.