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(0:56 people's noises)

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(check who) 1.17 We've got one hour
and a quarter.

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(confused voices then 1:31) How do we know
when these things are going to be turned on?

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(confused voices, then1:58) What? OK? 
Right.

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(Chairperson 2:03) Ladies and Genltemen, 
can I ask everyone

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to take their seats, please?

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We're about to begin, 
so if you're visiting the bar,

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can you charge your glasses and return 
to your seats, and then we'll begin.

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We've got an hour and a quarter
for this debate.

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OK, can I -- Welcome everybody to
the Online Educa OEB debate.

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I'm not sure what number this is
in the series of debates that we've had,

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I think it may be getting up to our 10th.

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What I can tell you is that in the time
that we've been having these debates

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and that I've been chairing them, 
my eyesight has now gone so bad

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that I can't possibly read any notes
that I have without using glasses, so

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I think we must be on at least our 10th.

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What I can also tell you is that 
Online Educa itself, OEB,

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this year is celebrating 
its 21st anniversary.

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So I think that perhaps deserves
a round of applause.

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So happy birthday to Online Educa --
(Applause) -- this fantastic conference.

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And 21 years ago was a very difficult --
very different world indeed,

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when one thinks about the scale and scope
of change that there --

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that has taken place in the last 21 years.

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One statistic I was reading recently was 
that in the UK, in 1994, 21 years ago,

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there were only 67 mobile phones
per 1000 people.

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But only ten years later, in 2004,

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there were more mobiles in the UK 
than people.

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And that pattern of spread 
of mobile communications alone

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has spread across the world and 
in Africa, for instance,

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those of you who have been to 
Elearning Africa will have learned about

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the spread of mobile communications
across the African continent.

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So in terms of the scale 
of technological change,

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and the spread of that change 
across the world,

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the change in that short period of time,
in these past 21 years alone,

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has been enormous, and we heard about

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the scale of it in the opening 
plenary session this morning.

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We live in a world that is globalized,
interconnected, hyperlinked

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and that scale of change we're 
experiencing, have experienced

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in the last 21 years, is going to
gather pace and continue.

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And all that is going to create a huge 
challenge for education and training,

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which is going to be at the heart

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of dealing with both the positive and 
negative aspects of that change.

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And that's why the motion that we're 
dealing with today, in this debate,

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is so important, and why the whole subject
of giving young people the skills

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that they need to cope with 
the challenges of this new world

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that we all are going to --
that we are creating, is so important.

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We've got four speakers, 
four panel speakers

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to open the debate this evening

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and I'm going to ask each of them 
to speak for 10 minutes,

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and then I'm going to --

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-- two of them will speak for the motion, 
obviously,and two against --

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then I will throw open the debate 
to all of you,

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but if you want to intervene
whilst they are speaking, because

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we're having a parliamentary-style
debate,

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then you can try to intervene on them

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and if they want to take 
your intervention,

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then they can do so, but it will be
entirely up to you.

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And if they don't, then you can draw
whatever conclusions you want from that.

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But I want to ensure that 
we keep the flow going,

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so I'm not going to let you bully them
but I'm going to allow you,

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if you want to make a particular point,

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or if you want to make 
a short intervention, to do so.

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Then after they've spoken, we'll
throw open the debate to the floor

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and you can make your contribution,

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but do please realize that time 
is of the essence,

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so please try to keep it short and 
to the point, succinct.

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This is the kind of debate equivalent
of texting.

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So, no long rambling contributions, 
because I will cut you off

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if you try to do that.

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So, very short contributions, please.

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And then I'll ask each of our --
I'll ask one speaker from each side

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to sum up, and then we will take a vote,
and we'll do that by a show of hands.

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And I've also made it clear 
to all the speakers that they may

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say things that they don't necessarily 
want to be held to in the future,

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so I hope that you will understand that.

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But this is an opportunity for us 
to explore some of the issues,

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but don't take it all too seriously,

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and don't come and accuse people of saying
things that you would --

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that they might not necessarily always 
want to be held to.

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With that in mind, I'm going to ask
our first speaker, who is Jo Swinson.

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Jo Swinson, who is the former Minister
for business, innovation and skills

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in the UK's coalition government of
2010 to 2015,

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to speak first for the motion.

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And Jo, since leaving Parliament, 
has begun a new career

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and is involved in an award within
a data intelligence company

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called Clear Returns

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and she is an expert on the challenges 
and opportunities of the digital age.

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So, over to you, Jo.

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(Jo Swinson) Thank you very much indeed,
Harold.

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And I'm absolutely delighted to be here
in Berlin at OEB.

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A bit of a first, actually, the first
technology-related conference

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that I've been to where there is a queue
in the ladies' loos!

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I have to say I was particularly pleased 
by that, not only as a feminist,

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but also as a Brit who appreciates
the art of queuing.

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So it was good on two fronts.

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So, this house believes that 
21st century skills aren't being taught,

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and they should be, is the motion
that I want to convince you

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to support this evening.

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We absolutely need to be equipping
our young people,

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and indeed, people at every stage
of their lives,

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with the skills that they need 
for the 21st century.

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And our education systems, 
and our wider society,

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have an important role to play in this.

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But I will put it to you, this evening,
that when it comes to technical skills,

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when it comes to social skills,
and vitally,

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when it comes to capacity 
to embrace change,

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we are not yet rising to that challenge
sufficiently.

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There are very specific skills, 
there are gaps in science and technology

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that are not being properly filled. 9:32

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These shortages are causing
significant problems

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for businesses, for employers.

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Half of engineering companies say that
they have delayed taking forward

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new products or services, because 
they have vacancies

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that are so hard to fill, because
the skills are not there to recruit.

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Digital start-ups are often in real need
of software developers

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that they cannot find sufficiently.

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And companies of all sizes, grappling with
cybersecurity challenges

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struggle to have the skills that they need
to take on those important issues.

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As Harold mentioned, I'm now a director
of a company called Clear Returns.

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It's been going for about three years,
based in Glasgow, and uses data analytics

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to help retailers understand the problems
they have with product returns

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and therefore successfully cutting 
the costs for retailers,

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and resulting in better 
customer satisfaction.

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But in our technology team of 17 people,
there are 12 different nationalities

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and not one of those people went through
the school education system in the UK,

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because the skills are not taught 
up to scratch.

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Now, there have been some improvements
and as to 2014,

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computer science has been introduced into
the curriculum in the UK,

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but that is not the end of the matter,

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because 11% of computer science graduates
are unemployed.

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In fact, that's one of the highest 
unemployment rates

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for any subject discipline,

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at a time when we have a huge shortage
of these very skills.

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Something is going very wrong 
when that is the case.

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And this is not just about
teaching people to code.

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Fashionable ....... (check) undoubtedly
is at the moment (check)

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and it is necessary that we do have 
people who can code.

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But it's not some kind of silver bullet
on its own.

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Actually, it's the building blocks 
that we need to be putting in place,

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the things that lie before you get
to the point of coding,

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the logic, the basic maths, 
enhancing those skills,

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so that people can put 
those building blocks together

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and create an argument or a 
train of thought or a mathematical proof,

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or indeed, a piece of code that will
instruct a machine to do something.

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Yet our maths skills 
are also going backwards.

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A King's College, London, study found that
compared to the 1970's

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young people today are significantly less
well equipped in the field of mathematics.

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And it's also worth pointing out 
that we are missing out,

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when it comes to teaching these skills
on almost half of the population.

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Only one in five A-level physics students
is a girl.

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When it comes to computer science,
that figure drops to 1 in 10.

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Now, it's wonderful to be at 
a technology conference

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where there is a queue 
in the ladies' loos,

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but even at this conference, if you
have a look at the speakers' brochure,

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only 8 of the 35 main speakers are women,
so where are the women?

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We are missing out 
on that important talent

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who will not then get in the fields
that we need for the 21st century

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to enable all of our economies 
to flourish.

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We're also not doing well enough
at the social skills

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which have always been imported --
important,

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and I would argue, are even more so
in the context of the 21st century.

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Employers have long complained that
they get coming into the work place

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are not yet ready for work.

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I have to say there is that thing 
I've observed,

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when new graduates starting out
in the work place

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seem to be allergic to 
using the telephone

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for the purpose it was originally
designed for.

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I've lost count of the number of times
when, speaking to a member of staff

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about the particular project 
that they are trying to make happen,

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and it seems so stuck, and I say:

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"What happened when you asked
that person about it?"

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"Oh, I sent them an email and
they didn't get back to me."

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You know, for all the wonders that
technology can undoubtedly do

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in helping us in our working life, when
you want to get people to do something,

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an email is very easy to ignore, and it is
much harder to just put to one side

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a face-to-face person or contact, 
or on the telephone.

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And relationships are absolutely critical
to 21st century work places and skills:

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getting things done, collaborating in 
teams, motivating others.

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Yet when we assess children 
and young people in the education system,

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it is genuinely done 
on a pure individual basis,

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not looking at how they are actually
operating within a drip setting (check).

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And when it comes to skills 
in terms of relationships,

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something like personal, social
and health education, which I would argue,

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is absolutely essential to help young
people learn to navigate relationships,

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and important issues like consent
when it comes to sex,

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it's not even compulsory 
in the UK curriculum.

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In a world where ultimation is increasing,

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where jobs that we've already seen through
the Industrial Revolution,

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that manual jobs have been replaced 
by machines,

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that with the next stage of technological
advancement, many, many more,

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in things like accountancy and 
professional services,

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are also going to be replaced 
by algorithms,

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the human social relationship skills
are going to be in even more demand

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and therefore deserve much more attention.

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And my final point is that we have not 
done enough to prepare people

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for the world of change.

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A little while ago, I spoke at a School
Award ceremony to 12-year olds

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And I was to explain to them 
how the world had changed

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since I was there age.

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And one of the examples I used was
the process of taking a photograph.

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And I described how, when I was 12,
you would have a thing called a camera

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that was all that it did, it was just
for taking photographs,

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you would have to get a piece of film,
physically,

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to load it into the camera machine,
you'd had to do that pretty carefully,

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because you didn't want to expose the film
and it was quite a fiddly process.

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You wouldn't know whether the photos
you were taking were any good.

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You would have to take at least 24, 
or sometimes 36,

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depending on which particular 
piece of film you put into your camera,

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before you would then take it along
to a pharmacist's or a chemist's shop,

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pay some money and then go and do
something else for a few days,

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at which point you could come back

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and be presented with your little
envelope of photographs,

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and see if any of them had turned out OK.

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And I was counting on these 12-year olds
looked at me

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like I might well be lying to them: 
this is how it worked,

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because of course these days, you know,
within a matter of seconds,

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you can take dozens of selfies 
in your phone,

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apply however many Instagram filters
you like,

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and share it with the entire world,
just without leaving the school.

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The pace of change is accelerating hugely.

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Here in 2015, for us to consider 
what even are 21st century skills,

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is like going back to 1915 and trying
to imagine the space race, nuclear power,

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the internet, or the kind of social change
going from a situation

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where women didn't even have the vote,

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to electing a woman as Prime Minister 
in the UK,

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or the change with gay rights,

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or the ending of racial segregation
in the United States.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We can't even conceive of all that 
the 21st century is going to bring.

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And so, more than anything, with 
this huge pace of increasing knowledge,

230
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more than anything, what we need to do
is equip people

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to cope with and thrive 
on change and uncertainty.

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Instead, we have bunches of kids being 
processed through the education system

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that doesn't look that different
to several decades ago.

234
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we really do have a problem here,
in terms of the skills

235
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we are teaching and more importantly,
not teaching well enough.

236
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Whether it's technical skills, 
whether it's those social skills

237
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or whether it's the vitally important
ability to be resilient,

238
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to recover from change and setbacks,

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and to apply yourself in a new way 
to a new set of challenges and horizons.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
These are the things 
we must be focusing on,

241
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we aren't yet rising 
to that challenge.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I support the motion. 18:06

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, thank you very much
for that, Jo.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our next speaker, who is going to speak
against the motion, is Allan Päll,

246
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who is the Secretary General of 
the European Youth Forum,

247
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is the representative body
for youth organisations in Europe

248
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and he is an advocate for youth's rights.

249
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
He lead student unions in Estonia and
at the European level, and has advocated

250
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for students' voices to be included
in educational policy. Allan:

251
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Allan Päll) All right, 
thank you very much, chair.

252
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I would like to very much support many
of the claims made by our opposition.

253
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
However, when it comes to the question
and when it comes to this specific motion,

254
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this house does not believe that 
21st century skills aren't being taught,

255
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because, well, let me put it very bluntly
and very simply:

256
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the whole notion of what are 21st century
skills is often just a bunch of nonsense,

257
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if I would sum it up very briefly.

258
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But let me go into it a bit more.

259
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are many definitions of
what these skills could be

260
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I fully agree that they do include
everything mentioned by the opposition.

261
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
However, there are many other ways
of looking at it.

262
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if we are to say whether these are 
being taught or not,

263
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even if we have a problem of the very
definition of what these skills are,

264
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
how can we say that they are 
not being taught so determinedly?

265
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Some of the elements that can be 
mentioned as 21st century skills

266
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are simple things, as critical thinking,
problem-solving, reasoning, analysis,

267
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
research skills, creativity, curiosity,
perseverance, self-direction

268
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
oral and written communication,
leadership,

269
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
information and communication technology,
social justice, literacy,

270
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
civic, ethical behavior, global awareness:
the list goes on and on and on.

271
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, indeed, many of those things, perhaps,
are not being taught enough,

272
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or specifically enough, 
in our educational systems.

273
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that doesn't mean that 
this is not happening.

274
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let me ask you one simple question:

275
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you believe that we don't acquire
many of these skills

276
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in our educational environment, 
be it in a formal setting

277
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or a socializing moment 
in your school or at university,

278
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
would we actually witness the pace
of change in society that we are seeing.

279
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Almost all of us have gone through 
the educational system.

280
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, we must get a lot of those skills
also through that.

281
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I do agree, though, 
that there is something to be said about

282
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the question of how specific are we
when we look at those skills.

283
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because that is true that most curricula --

284
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
education is very much compartmentalized
into very specific subject areas

285
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we're seeing an increasing trend
of those subject areas becoming

286
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
more and more specific.

287
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And thus indeed, there is perhaps
not enough emphasis on looking at,

288
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or thinking really about are we acquiring
all those sets of skills

289
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that are important for our socialization,
etc., our technical skills as well,

290
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as mentioned by the opposition.

291
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One of the things that I would like
to highlight is that

292
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the schools and universities, and
vocational education and training

293
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is not only about the formal 
learning outcomes

294
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we are beginning to measure 
more and more.

295
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It is also about the social environment
at that very school or university

296
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that determines a lot of 
what education gives us.

297
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In terms of specific skills 
that were mentioned by opposition

298
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the lack of those skills, there are
many variables perhaps to look at.

299
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes indeed, we are missing out 
on engineers,

300
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we are missing out on also 
staff in medical sciences, in care.

301
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We would need indeed many more people

302
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to have those qualifications, 
perhaps, indeed.

303
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there is also a question of
what is education for

304
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and what are the requirements 
on the labor market.

305
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And those two things, 
although they interact,

306
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they move at different paces.

307
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So sometimes, we start to put blame
very easily on the education system for

308
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not delivering specific skills when, for
example, the structure of our education

309
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-- sorry, the structure of our economy
has changed.

310
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think here, it's an important
remark that we need to look at

311
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
different experiences 
of different countries.

312
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And you see countries where 
unemployment levels,

313
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even throughout the financial
economic crises,

314
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were record low, such as in Germany
and Austria.

315
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But if you look at youth 
unemployment figures,

316
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
youth unemployment also among 
highly educated young people,

317
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in different areas, like Spain or Greece,
all around the Mediterranean,

318
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they've been staggeringly high.

319
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's not because 
the education systems failed,

320
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's because the macro-economic systems
failed them there,

321
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in terms of not having enough job creation
for all those skills.

322
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And of course, there is something
to be said that when we train people

323
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and when we train minds 
to think critically,

324
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to come up with new and innovative ideas,
we also change the world through that.

325
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, we need to understand 
that interaction.

326
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but certainly, when we look at 
21st century skills, well,

327
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if we are to define them with this broad
set of lists that I noted,

328
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we certainly are gaining those skills,
but perhaps, not specifically

329
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and not enough: that, we could agree.

330
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
When it comes to preparedness for change,

331
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when are we ever prepared 
for the change to come, one might wonder.

332
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Indeed, things, technologically, 
are changing very fast.

333
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And maybe our educational systems
are not embracing that technology

334
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at the same pace.

335
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that doesn't mean that 
if we would embrace

336
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the use of that technology very quickly,
that it would enhance immediately

337
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the skills that we can describe as
21st century skills,

338
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
such as, for example, critical thinking.

339
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are many advocates that say that

340
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we need to replace 
subject matter teaching completely

341
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with horizontal level approaches.

342
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That doesn't work.

343
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If we don't know the facts, how do we know
that we are on the right path

344
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with our decisions, how can we know
what really happened in the past,

345
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and not, how can we verify what is true?

346
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So when we look at the skills, we need
to look at the evidences

347
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in terms of teaching preparedness 
and pedagogy.

348
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And yes, we agree: there is a lot 
to be done there

349
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in terms of measuring those essential
skills of socialization and communication,

350
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
building relationships, and it is true 
that around, it's estimated,

351
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
around 50% of jobs in the service sector

352
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are about to disappear in the next 
20 years and transform, hopefully,

353
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
into something completely new.

354
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Finally, indeed, those skills, 
we can all agree,

355
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we'll need those skills.

356
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there is an important element
of young people,

357
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and this is a study that we have done
in the European Youth Forum,

358
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that they gain a lot of those skills also
outside, in non formal education settings.

359
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the key here is to see if we can bring
those experiences

360
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that young people gain from youth 
organizations, activism,

361
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
into the formal education setting, 
and thus make it much more open

362
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to recognizing those prior experiences
as well, to overcome this shortage.

363
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you very much.

364
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)

365
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you very much, Allan.

366
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our next speaker who is going to speak
for the motion is Pedro De Bruyckere

367
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who is an educational scientist and 
he has worked in Ghent in Belgium

368
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
since 2001.

369
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
He co-wrote two books which debunk
popular myths on generation Y

370
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and generation Z,

371
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the latest one was entitled 
"I was 10 in 2015". Pedro:

372
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Pedro De Bruyckere) OK. Good evening.

373
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm a teacher, I'm a teacher trainer,
so I'm not used to standing still.

374
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if you don't mind, I will move.

375
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Allan, thank you very much for
making my point.

376
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I have to explain: I have to agree,
I've written a book about it.

377
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's no such thing 
as 21st century skills.

378
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that's why they need to be taught.

379
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I have to explain this.

380
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, if we go back in time, to see
the origins of the 21st century skills,

381
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you'll end up with the liberal arts,
the Septem Artes Liberales.

382
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Rhetoric, what we are doing right here,
that's for me ancient history,

383
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but still needed today.

384
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the question is, 
is this still being taught in school?

385
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because, like ....... Alberts (check) says,
moreover we get a focus on the Three R's

386
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-- Reading, 'Riting, 'Rithmetics --

387
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
while most of the young people are
looking to Snapchats.

388
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But because of the focus, 
because we want to test stuff,

389
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the more important things 
are being forgotten!

390
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Rhetoric, philosophy, for me, crucial.

391
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
To be honest, then, you don't have to look
at Ancient Times,

392
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than you have to look at Medieval Times,

393
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because then philosophy was added
to the Liberal Arts.

394
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we need to train our children 
because it's great to say:

395
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Look at us: we've done it."

396
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, but we are not talking about us,
because in 20 years' time, they will --

397
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we will be old, boring and 
other people need to sit there

398
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and beyond stage, using rhetoric.

399
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we need to prepare them.

400
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm not sure if we're doing a great job.

401
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
For instance, if we talk about technology,

402
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
technology is often like a sex ad
in education.

403
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, you talk about 
all the dangerous stuff

404
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you never talk about the fun stuff.

405
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, it's very simple:

406
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Don't do this, don't do that,
certainly don't try that! Go ahead!"

407
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And another -- for instance, McKinsey,
the McKinsey report, 2014 McKinsey report,

408
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
said just (check)
-- and I agree again with you both --

409
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there is a mismatch.

410
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There is a mismatch between 
what children study in school

411
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and which topics they choose,
and what we need in the economy.

412
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But at the same time, the employers said:

413
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"You know, don't train them 
to a specific job

414
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"but train them in strategic 
and communication skills."

415
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, they have been around for ages
but they are still important.

416
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But what do we do, for instance,
in many schools?

417
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've been in schools in Holland, 
in Germany, in --

418
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you know, we teach them how to write
a job application.

419
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We teach them how to perform
a talk for a job.

420
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do we teach them to write 
a LinkedIn profile?

421
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
No, what we say is "Never post
a drunk photo on Facebook,

422
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"because people will search you."

423
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What we don't say is:

424
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"You know what? Post something good 
about yourself on Facebook,

425
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"that isn't a selfie."

426
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But we think well, they will do this.

427
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Actually, for instance research by
Jan van Dek (check):

428
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's one of the stuff 
that our kids don't know.

429
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And if we don't teach them, who will?

430
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So that's my point: we need to teach them
basic skills like Jo said:

431
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
communication skills, strategic skills.

432
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And if you want to call them
21st century skills because, by accident,

433
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we're living in the 21st century,
so be it.

434
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)
Thank you.

435
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)

436
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, 
thank you very much, Pedro.

437
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our final speaker who is going to speak
against the motion is Miles Berry,

438
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who is the principal lecturer 
in computing education

439
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at the University of Roehampton in the UK:
Miles.

440
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Miles Berry) Pleasure to be here,
really is.

441
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Philip and Gudrun, where are you guys?

442
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, on the Twitter thing you say:

443
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"We need to talk about what the purpose
of education is, what is education for?"

444
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that's where I want to start.

445
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I want to move back from the motion, 
to think about what education is for.

446
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And to do that, we need some understanding
of what education is.

447
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've been in education 
for over 40 years now.

448
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But even so, I checked.

449
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's the culture or development
of personal knowledge, or understanding,

450
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
growth or character, 
moral and social qualities, etc.,

451
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as contrasting with 
the imparting of a skill.

452
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(blurred: check)

453
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, there's definitely a place 
for imparting skills,

454
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but that's training, not education,
and there is a difference.

455
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
My Roehampton students study education,
but they are trained to teach.

456
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
England's new computing curriculum
educates people about the principles,

457
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the principles of computer science:
(inaudible: check), I tell you.

458
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(laughter) ... technology, I think 
the technology ran on me tonight,

459
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's all right I'll give it...

460
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(off) (unintelligible)

461
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Berry) 21st century skill 
-- on knowledge -- (laughter)

462
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Knowledge that these things are the wrong
shape for my head: never mind.

463
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, so: England's new computing curriculum
that Jo has alluded to

464
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
educates people about the principles
of computer science,

465
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whereas we used to train them 
to use Office software.

466
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or think about sex.

467
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Look, not like that: we rightly include
sex education on the curriculum in schools

468
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but we typically don't include training.
(Laughter) Important skills.

469
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do without microphones. 
(Laughter) ... very well.

470
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In England, our Education Act says
what education is for.

471
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Firstly, it's to promote the spiritual,
moral, cultural, mental and physical

472
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
development of pupils and of society.

473
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's to prepare pupils 
for the opportunities, responsibilities

474
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and experiences of later life.

475
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What else could education possibly be for?

476
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In that, you just got to love laws
that require you to do

477
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what you'd want to do anyhow.

478
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There does remain a question about
how best to prepare people

479
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for these opportunities, responsibilities
and experiences.

480
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think the nob of the motion this evening
is about whether this should be done

481
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
through some sort of training
in 21st century skills

482
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or by passing on the knowledge, 
understanding and wisdom

483
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of our generation to the next and I'd say,
the latter.

484
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've no problem with skills per se
in teaching.

485
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Behavioral management is a skill,
coding is a skill,

486
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so is searching for things on Google,
or even Bing.

487
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK. I've some problem, though, with the
notion that there are 21st century skills

488
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I'd agree with you on that.

489
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But both of you have done a fine job
of demolishing that notion already.

490
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've also some problem with the skills --
with the notion that skills can transfer.

491
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Skills are about accomplishing something.

492
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's a context to the skills,

493
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I think we diminish specific skills
by attempting to generalize them.

494
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It isn't critical thinking, 
it's thinking critically about something.

495
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's not creativity, 
it's creating something.

496
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's not communication,

497
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's communicating something
through some media.

498
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The 'something' here matters.

499
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's really not possible to teach skills
in the abstract fashion, without context.

500
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the context is king.

501
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Whatever the specific domain,

502
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
knowledge of that domain is necessary
for expert skills.

503
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
My main problem, though, is that
we've only a little time in school.

504
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We've other things to teach and
our students have other things to learn:

505
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things like knowledge

506
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and understanding

507
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and wisdom.

508
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Without these, skills are unlikely to be
of much practical benefit.

509
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Stephen Downes is here.

510
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, nodding in his direction, I'd say,
learning is about connecting things:

511
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
neurons, ideas, people.

512
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The computer scientists get this,

513
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Google's page rank algorithm relies
not so much on the content of the page,

514
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as the links between the pages.

515
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The thing is then, the new stuff has to be
connected to something.

516
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Otherwise, it's just isolated factoids.

517
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We can't make sense of it, 
we can't use new knowledge

518
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
unless it's integrated into our existing
mental maps, our schema.

519
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Put simply: it takes knowledge
to gain knowledge.

520
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This apples to each of us as individuals,
but it's also how civilization grows.

521
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Human achievement is a cumulative thing.

522
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
New knowledge doesn't normally contradict
what's gone before.

523
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It builds on it.

524
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If Newton saw further than others had,

525
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it was because he stood 
on the shoulders of giants.

526
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What hope would there be 
for the next generations

527
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if they had to discover everything afresh
for themselves?

528
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The consequence of our building
on what's gone before

529
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that the pace of cultural, scientific
and technological change

530
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
accelerates exponentially.

531
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But even allowing for this acceleration
is knowledge, understanding and wisdom

532
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which have done the test of time.

533
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Less so, skills.

534
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Expect new inventions and discoveries
over the next 85 years

535
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and new practical skills to go with them.

536
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But don't expect the foundational 
shared knowledge of our civilization

537
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to become irrelevant.

538
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Indeed, it's on this very foundation
that the new knowledge will be built.

539
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's not 21st century skills 
that young people need.

540
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's 21st century knowledge, understanding
and wisdom.

541
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Time, I think, for a quick case study.

542
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The most successful education systems
and the top universities

543
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
seem to organize their curriculum
around well knowledge-based subjects.

544
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
England's new National Curriculum is
quite explicitly a knowledge-based one.

545
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It sets out to provide pupils with 
an introduction to the essential knowledge

546
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they need to be educated as citizens,

547
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and to introduce them to the best
which has been thought and said.

548
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One of the most radical things we've done
in that curriculum,

549
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which many see as rather reactionary,

550
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is to have replaced the old ICT 
with a new subject: computing.

551
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This includes an introduction 
to the principles of computer science

552
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for all, from age 5 up.

553
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It has been my privilege 
to be part of the team

554
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
designing and implementing
the new subject.

555
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Under the old curriculum we offered
a good grounding in tech skills,

556
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
finding this online, 
making a presentation,

557
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
typing up stories, articles and reports.

558
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Sometimes, even making a spreadsheet,
often about having a party.

559
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do people really use spreadsheets
to plan parties?

560
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Are these fun parties? Are these 
-- OK (laughs)

561
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It was fine: pupils moved on to work
or the next phase of education

562
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with some competence and confidence

563
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and broadly speaking, were
digitally literate.

564
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our ...... (check) students 
at Roehampton's

565
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
suggested that broad portfolio skills,

566
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
two thirds regarded them as .... as 
competent, proficient or experts. (39:58)