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(0:56 people's noises)

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(check who) 1.17 We've got one hour
and a quarter.

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(confused voices then 1:31) How do we know
when these things are going to be turned on?

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(confused voices, then1:58) What? OK? 
Right.

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(Chairperson 2:03) Ladies and Genltemen, 
can I ask everyone

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to take their seats, please?

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We're about to begin, 
so if you're visiting the bar,

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can you charge your glasses and return 
to your seats, and then we'll begin.

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We've got an hour and a quarter
for this debate.

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OK, can I -- Welcome everybody to
the Online Educa OEB debate.

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I'm not sure what number this is
in the series of debates that we've had,

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I think it may be getting up to our 10th.

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What I can tell you is that in the time
that we've been having these debates

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and that I've been chairing them, 
my eyesight has now gone so bad

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that I can't possibly read any notes
that I have without using glasses, so

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I think we must be on at least our 10th.

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What I can also tell you is that 
Online Educa itself, OEB,

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this year is celebrating 
its 21st anniversary.

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So I think that perhaps deserves
a round of applause.

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So happy birthday to Online Educa --
(Applause) -- this fantastic conference.

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And 21 years ago was a very difficult --
very different world indeed,

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when one thinks about the scale and scope
of change that there --

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that has taken place in the last 21 years.

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One statistic I was reading recently was 
that in the UK, in 1994, 21 years ago,

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there were only 67 mobile phones
per 1000 people.

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But only ten years later, in 2004,

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there were more mobiles in the UK 
than people.

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And that pattern of spread 
of mobile communications alone

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has spread across the world and 
in Africa, for instance,

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those of you who have been to 
Elearning Africa will have learned about

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the spread of mobile communications
across the African continent.

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So in terms of the scale 
of technological change,

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and the spread of that change 
across the world,

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the change in that short period of time,
in these past 21 years alone,

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has been enormous, and we heard about

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the scale of it in the opening 
plenary session this morning.

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We live in a world that is globalized,
interconnected, hyperlinked

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and that scale of change we're 
experiencing, have experienced

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in the last 21 years, is going to
gather pace and continue.

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And all that is going to create a huge 
challenge for education and training,

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which is going to be at the heart

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of dealing with both the positive and 
negative aspects of that change.

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And that's why the motion that we're 
dealing with today, in this debate,

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is so important, and why the whole subject
of giving young people the skills

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that they need to cope with 
the challenges of this new world

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that we all are going to --
that we are creating, is so important.

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We've got four speakers, 
four panel speakers

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to open the debate this evening

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and I'm going to ask each of them 
to speak for 10 minutes,

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and then I'm going to --

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-- two of them will speak for the motion, 
obviously,and two against --

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then I will throw open the debate 
to all of you,

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but if you want to intervene
whilst they are speaking, because

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we're having a parliamentary-style
debate,

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then you can try to intervene on them

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and if they want to take 
your intervention,

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then they can do so, but it will be
entirely up to you.

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And if they don't, then you can draw
whatever conclusions you want from that.

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But I want to ensure that 
we keep the flow going,

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so I'm not going to let you bully them
but I'm going to allow you,

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if you want to make a particular point,

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or if you want to make 
a short intervention, to do so.

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Then after they've spoken, we'll
throw open the debate to the floor

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and you can make your contribution,

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but do please realize that time 
is of the essence,

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so please try to keep it short and 
to the point, succinct.

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This is the kind of debate equivalent
of texting.

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So, no long rambling contributions, 
because I will cut you off

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if you try to do that.

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So, very short contributions, please.

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And then I'll ask each of our --
I'll ask one speaker from each side

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to sum up, and then we will take a vote,
and we'll do that by a show of hands.

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And I've also made it clear 
to all the speakers that they may

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say things that they don't necessarily 
want to be held to in the future,

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so I hope that you will understand that.

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But this is an opportunity for us 
to explore some of the issues,

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but don't take it all too seriously,

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and don't come and accuse people of saying
things that you would --

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that they might not necessarily always 
want to be held to.

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With that in mind, I'm going to ask
our first speaker, who is Jo Swinson.

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Jo Swinson, who is the former Minister
for business, innovation and skills

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in the UK's coalition government of
2010 to 2015,

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to speak first for the motion.

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And Jo, since leaving Parliament, 
has begun a new career

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and is involved in an award within
a data intelligence company

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called Clear Returns

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and she is an expert on the challenges 
and opportunities of the digital age.

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So, over to you, Jo.

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(Jo Swinson) Thank you very much indeed,
Harold.

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And I'm absolutely delighted to be here
in Berlin at OEB.

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A bit of a first, actually, the first
technology-related conference

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that I've been to where there is a queue
in the ladies' loos!

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I have to say I was particularly pleased 
by that, not only as a feminist,

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but also as a Brit who appreciates
the art of queuing.

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So it was good on two fronts.

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So, this house believes that 
21st century skills aren't being taught,

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and they should be, is the motion
that I want to convince you

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to support this evening.

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We absolutely need to be equipping
our young people,

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and indeed, people at every stage
of their lives,

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with the skills that they need 
for the 21st century.

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And our education systems, 
and our wider society,

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have an important role to play in this.

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But I will put it to you, this evening,
that when it comes to technical skills,

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when it comes to social skills,
and vitally,

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when it comes to capacity 
to embrace change,

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we are not yet rising to that challenge
sufficiently.

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There are very specific skills, 
there are gaps in science and technology

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that are not being properly filled. 9:32

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These shortages are causing
significant problems

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for businesses, for employers.

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Half of engineering companies say that
they have delayed taking forward

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new products or services, because 
they have vacancies

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that are so hard to fill, because
the skills are not there to recruit.

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Digital start-ups are often in real need
of software developers

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that they cannot find sufficiently.

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And companies of all sizes, grappling with
cybersecurity challenges

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struggle to have the skills that they need
to take on those important issues.

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As Harold mentioned, I'm now a director
of a company called Clear Returns.

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It's been going for about three years,
based in Glasgow, and uses data analytics

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to help retailers understand the problems
they have with product returns

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and therefore successfully cutting 
the costs for retailers,

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and resulting in better 
customer satisfaction.

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But in our technology team of 17 people,
there are 12 different nationalities

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and not one of those people went through
the school education system in the UK,

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because the skills are not taught 
up to scratch.

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Now, there have been some improvements
and as to 2014,

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computer science has been introduced into
the curriculum in the UK,

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but that is not the end of the matter,

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because 11% of computer science graduates
are unemployed.

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In fact, that's one of the highest 
unemployment rates

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for any subject discipline,

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at a time when we have a huge shortage
of these very skills.

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Something is going very wrong 
when that is the case.

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And this is not just about
teaching people to code.

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Fashionable ....... (check) undoubtedly
is at the moment (check)

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and it is necessary that we do have 
people who can code.

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But it's not some kind of silver bullet
on its own.

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Actually, it's the building blocks 
that we need to be putting in place,

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the things that lie before you get
to the point of coding,

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the logic, the basic maths, 
enhancing those skills,

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so that people can put 
those building blocks together

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and create an argument or a 
train of thought or a mathematical proof,

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or indeed, a piece of code that will
instruct a machine to do something.

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Yet our maths skills 
are also going backwards.

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A King's College, London, study found that
compared to the 1970's

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young people today are significantly less
well equipped in the field of mathematics.

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And it's also worth pointing out 
that we are missing out,

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when it comes to teaching these skills
on almost half of the population.

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Only one in five A-level physics students
is a girl.

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When it comes to computer science,
that figure drops to 1 in 10.

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Now, it's wonderful to be at 
a technology conference

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where there is a queue 
in the ladies' loos,

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but even at this conference, if you
have a look at the speakers' brochure,

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only 8 of the 35 main speakers are women,
so where are the women?

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We are missing out 
on that important talent

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who will not then get in the fields
that we need for the 21st century

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to enable all of our economies 
to flourish.

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We're also not doing well enough
at the social skills

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which have always been imported --
important,

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and I would argue, are even more so
in the context of the 21st century.

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Employers have long complained that
they get coming into the work place

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are not yet ready for work.

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I have to say there is that thing 
I've observed,

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when new graduates starting out
in the work place

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seem to be allergic to 
using the telephone

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for the purpose it was originally
designed for.

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I've lost count of the number of times
when, speaking to a member of staff

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about the particular project 
that they are trying to make happen,

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and it seems so stuck, and I say:

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"What happened when you asked
that person about it?"

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"Oh, I sent them an email and
they didn't get back to me."

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You know, for all the wonders that
technology can undoubtedly do

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in helping us in our working life, when
you want to get people to do something,

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an email is very easy to ignore, and it is
much harder to just put to one side

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a face-to-face person or contact, 
or on the telephone.

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And relationships are absolutely critical
to 21st century work places and skills:

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getting things done, collaborating in 
teams, motivating others.

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Yet when we assess children 
and young people in the education system,

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it is genuinely done 
on a pure individual basis,

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not looking at how they are actually
operating within a drip setting (check).

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And when it comes to skills 
in terms of relationships,

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something like personal, social
and health education, which I would argue,

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is absolutely essential to help young
people learn to navigate relationships,

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and important issues like consent
when it comes to sex,

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it's not even compulsory 
in the UK curriculum.

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In a world where ultimation is increasing,

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where jobs that we've already seen through
the Industrial Revolution,

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that manual jobs have been replaced 
by machines,

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that with the next stage of technological
advancement, many, many more,

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in things like accountancy and 
professional services,

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are also going to be replaced 
by algorithms,

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the human social relationship skills
are going to be in even more demand

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and therefore deserve much more attention.

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And my final point is that we have not 
done enough to prepare people

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for the world of change.

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A little while ago, I spoke at a School
Award ceremony to 12-year olds

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And I was to explain to them 
how the world had changed

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since I was there age.

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And one of the examples I used was
the process of taking a photograph.

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And I described how, when I was 12,
you would have a thing called a camera

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that was all that it did, it was just
for taking photographs,

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you would have to get a piece of film,
physically,

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to load it into the camera machine,
you'd had to do that pretty carefully,

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because you didn't want to expose the film
and it was quite a fiddly process.

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You wouldn't know whether the photos
you were taking were any good.

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You would have to take at least 24, 
or sometimes 36,

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depending on which particular 
piece of film you put into your camera,

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before you would then take it along
to a pharmacist's or a chemist's shop,

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pay some money and then go and do
something else for a few days,

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at which point you could come back

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and be presented with your little
envelope of photographs,

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and see if any of them had turned out OK.

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And I was counting on these 12-year olds
looked at me

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like I might well be lying to them: 
this is how it worked,

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because of course these days, you know,
within a matter of seconds,

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you can take dozens of selfies 
in your phone,

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apply however many Instagram filters
you like,

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and share it with the entire world,
just without leaving the school.

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The pace of change is accelerating hugely.

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Here in 2015, for us to consider 
what even are 21st century skills,

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is like going back to 1915 and trying
to imagine the space race, nuclear power,

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the internet, or the kind of social change
going from a situation

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where women didn't even have the vote,

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to electing a woman as Prime Minister 
in the UK,

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or the change with gay rights,

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or the ending of racial segregation
in the United States.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We can't even conceive of all that 
the 21st century is going to bring.

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And so, more than anything, with 
this huge pace of increasing knowledge,

230
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more than anything, what we need to do
is equip people

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to cope with and thrive 
on change and uncertainty.

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Instead, we have bunches of kids being 
processed through the education system

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that doesn't look that different
to several decades ago.

234
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we really do have a problem here,
in terms of the skills

235
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we are teaching and more importantly,
not teaching well enough.

236
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Whether it's technical skills, 
whether it's those social skills

237
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or whether it's the vitally important
ability to be resilient,

238
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to recover from change and setbacks,

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and to apply yourself in a new way 
to a new set of challenges and horizons.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
These are the things 
we must be focusing on,

241
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we aren't yet rising 
to that challenge.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I support the motion. 18:06

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, thank you very much
for that, Jo.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our next speaker, who is going to speak
against the motion, is Allan Päll,

246
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who is the Secretary General of 
the European Youth Forum,

247
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is the representative body
for youth organisations in Europe

248
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and he is an advocate for youth's rights.

249
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
He lead student unions in Estonia and
at the European level, and has advocated

250
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for students' voices to be included
in educational policy. Allan:

251
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Allan Päll) All right, 
thank you very much, chair.

252
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I would like to very much support many
of the claims made by our opposition.

253
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
However, when it comes to the question
and when it comes to this specific motion,

254
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this house does not believe that 
21st century skills aren't being taught,

255
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because, well, let me put it very bluntly
and very simply:

256
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the whole notion of what are 21st century
skills is often just a bunch of nonsense,

257
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if I would sum it up very briefly.

258
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But let me go into it a bit more.

259
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are many definitions of
what these skills could be

260
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I fully agree that they do include
everything mentioned by the opposition.

261
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
However, there are many other ways
of looking at it.

262
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if we are to say whether these are 
being taught or not,

263
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even if we have a problem of the very
definition of what these skills are,

264
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
how can we say that they are 
not being taught so determinedly?

265
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Some of the elements that can be 
mentioned as 21st century skills

266
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are simple things, as critical thinking,
problem-solving, reasoning, analysis,

267
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
research skills, creativity, curiosity,
perseverance, self-direction

268
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
oral and written communication,
leadership,

269
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
information and communication technology,
social justice, literacy,

270
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
civic, ethical behavior, global awareness:
the list goes on and on and on.

271
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, indeed, many of those things, perhaps,
are not being taught enough,

272
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or specifically enough, 
in our educational systems.

273
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that doesn't mean that 
this is not happening.

274
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let me ask you one simple question:

275
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you believe that we don't acquire
many of these skills

276
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in our educational environment, 
be it in a formal setting

277
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or a socializing moment 
in your school or at university,

278
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
would we actually witness the pace
of change in society that we are seeing.

279
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Almost all of us have gone through 
the educational system.

280
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, we must get a lot of those skills
also through that.

281
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I do agree, though, 
that there is something to be said about

282
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the question of how specific are we
when we look at those skills.

283
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because that is true that most curricula --

284
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
education is very much compartmentalized
into very specific subject areas

285
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we're seeing an increasing trend
of those subject areas becoming

286
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
more and more specific.

287
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And thus indeed, there is perhaps
not enough emphasis on looking at,

288
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or thinking really about are we acquiring
all those sets of skills

289
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that are important for our socialization,
etc., our technical skills as well,

290
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as mentioned by the opposition.

291
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One of the things that I would like
to highlight is that

292
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the schools and universities, and
vocational education and training

293
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is not only about the formal 
learning outcomes

294
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we are beginning to measure 
more and more.

295
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It is also about the social environment
at that very school or university

296
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that determines a lot of 
what education gives us.

297
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In terms of specific skills 
that were mentioned by opposition

298
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the lack of those skills, there are
many variables perhaps to look at.

299
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes indeed, we are missing out 
on engineers,

300
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we are missing out on also 
staff in medical sciences, in care.

301
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We would need indeed many more people

302
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to have those qualifications, 
perhaps, indeed.

303
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there is also a question of
what is education for

304
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and what are the requirements 
on the labor market.

305
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And those two things, 
although they interact,

306
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they move at different paces.

307
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So sometimes, we start to put blame
very easily on the education system for

308
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not delivering specific skills when, for
example, the structure of our education

309
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-- sorry, the structure of our economy
has changed.

310
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think here, it's an important
remark that we need to look at

311
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
different experiences 
of different countries.

312
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And you see countries where 
unemployment levels,

313
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even throughout the financial
economic crises,

314
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were record low, such as in Germany
and Austria.

315
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But if you look at youth 
unemployment figures,

316
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
youth unemployment also among 
highly educated young people,

317
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in different areas, like Spain or Greece,
all around the Mediterranean,

318
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they've been staggeringly high.

319
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's not because 
the education systems failed,

320
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's because the macro-economic systems
failed them there,

321
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in terms of not having enough job creation
for all those skills.

322
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And of course, there is something
to be said that when we train people

323
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and when we train minds 
to think critically,

324
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to come up with new and innovative ideas,
we also change the world through that.

325
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, we need to understand 
that interaction.

326
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but certainly, when we look at 
21st century skills, well,

327
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if we are to define them with this broad
set of lists that I noted,

328
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we certainly are gaining those skills,
but perhaps, not specifically

329
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and not enough: that, we could agree.

330
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
When it comes to preparedness for change,

331
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when are we ever prepared 
for the change to come, one might wonder.

332
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Indeed, things, technologically, 
are changing very fast.

333
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And maybe our educational systems
are not embracing that technology

334
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at the same pace.

335
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that doesn't mean that 
if we would embrace

336
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the use of that technology very quickly,
that it would enhance immediately

337
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the skills that we can describe as
21st century skills,

338
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
such as, for example, critical thinking.

339
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are many advocates that say that

340
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we need to replace 
subject matter teaching completely

341
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with horizontal level approaches.

342
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That doesn't work.

343
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If we don't know the facts, how do we know
that we are on the right path

344
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with our decisions, how can we know
what really happened in the past,

345
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and not, how can we verify what is true?

346
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So when we look at the skills, we need
to look at the evidences

347
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in terms of teaching preparedness 
and pedagogy.

348
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And yes, we agree: there is a lot 
to be done there

349
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in terms of measuring those essential
skills of socialization and communication,

350
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
building relationships, and it is true 
that around, it's estimated,

351
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
around 50% of jobs in the service sector

352
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are about to disappear in the next 
20 years and transform, hopefully,

353
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
into something completely new.

354
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Finally, indeed, those skills, 
we can all agree,

355
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we'll need those skills.

356
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there is an important element
of young people,

357
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and this is a study that we have done
in the European Youth Forum,

358
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that they gain a lot of those skills also
outside, in non formal education settings.

359
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the key here is to see if we can bring
those experiences

360
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that young people gain from youth 
organizations, activism,

361
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
into the formal education setting, 
and thus make it much more open

362
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to recognizing those prior experiences
as well, to overcome this shortage.

363
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you very much.

364
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)

365
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you very much, Allan.

366
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our next speaker who is going to speak
for the motion is Pedro De Bruyckere

367
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who is an educational scientist and 
he has worked in Ghent in Belgium

368
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
since 2001.

369
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
He co-wrote two books which debunk
popular myths on generation Y

370
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and generation Z,

371
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the latest one was entitled 
"I was 10 in 2015". Pedro:

372
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Pedro De Bruyckere) OK. Good evening.

373
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm a teacher, I'm a teacher trainer,
so I'm not used to standing still.

374
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if you don't mind, I will move.

375
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Allan, thank you very much for
making my point.

376
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I have to explain: I have to agree,
I've written a book about it.

377
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's no such thing 
as 21st century skills.

378
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that's why they need to be taught.

379
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I have to explain this.

380
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, if we go back in time, to see
the origins of the 21st century skills,

381
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you'll end up with the liberal arts,
the Septem Artes Liberales.

382
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Rhetoric, what we are doing right here,
that's for me ancient history,

383
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but still needed today.

384
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the question is, 
is this still being taught in school?

385
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because, like ....... Alberts (check) says,
moreover we get a focus on the Three R's

386
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-- Reading, 'Riting, 'Rithmetics --

387
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
while most of the young people are
looking to Snapchats.

388
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But because of the focus, 
because we want to test stuff,

389
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the more important things 
are being forgotten!

390
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Rhetoric, philosophy, for me, crucial.

391
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
To be honest, then, you don't have to look
at Ancient Times,

392
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than you have to look at Medieval Times,

393
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because then philosophy was added
to the Liberal Arts.

394
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we need to train our children 
because it's great to say:

395
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Look at us: we've done it."

396
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, but we are not talking about us,
because in 20 years' time, they will --

397
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we will be old, boring and 
other people need to sit there

398
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and beyond stage, using rhetoric.

399
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we need to prepare them.

400
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm not sure if we're doing a great job.

401
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
For instance, if we talk about technology,

402
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
technology is often like a sex ad
in education.

403
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, you talk about 
all the dangerous stuff

404
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you never talk about the fun stuff.

405
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, it's very simple:

406
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Don't do this, don't do that,
certainly don't try that! Go ahead!"

407
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And another -- for instance, McKinsey,
the McKinsey report, 2014 McKinsey report,

408
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
said just (check)
-- and I agree again with you both --

409
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there is a mismatch.

410
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There is a mismatch between 
what children study in school

411
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and which topics they choose,
and what we need in the economy.

412
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But at the same time, the employers said:

413
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"You know, don't train them 
to a specific job

414
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"but train them in strategic 
and communication skills."

415
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, they have been around for ages
but they are still important.

416
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But what do we do, for instance,
in many schools?

417
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've been in schools in Holland, 
in Germany, in --

418
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you know, we teach them how to write
a job application.

419
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We teach them how to perform
a talk for a job.

420
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do we teach them to write 
a LinkedIn profile?

421
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
No, what we say is "Never post
a drunk photo on Facebook,

422
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"because people will search you."

423
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What we don't say is:

424
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"You know what? Post something good 
about yourself on Facebook,

425
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"that isn't a selfie."

426
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But we think well, they will do this.

427
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Actually, for instance research by
Jan van Dek (check):

428
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's one of the stuff 
that our kids don't know.

429
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And if we don't teach them, who will?

430
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So that's my point: we need to teach them
basic skills like Jo said:

431
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
communication skills, strategic skills.

432
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And if you want to call them
21st century skills because, by accident,

433
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we're living in the 21st century,
so be it.

434
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)
Thank you.

435
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)

436
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, 
thank you very much, Pedro.

437
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our final speaker who is going to speak
against the motion is Miles Berry,

438
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who is the principal lecturer 
in computing education

439
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at the University of Roehampton in the UK:
Miles.

440
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Miles Berry) Pleasure to be here,
really is.

441
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Philip and Gudrun, where are you guys?

442
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, on the Twitter thing you say:

443
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"We need to talk about what the purpose
of education is, what is education for?"

444
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that's where I want to start.

445
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I want to move back from the motion, 
to think about what education is for.

446
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And to do that, we need some understanding
of what education is.

447
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've been in education 
for over 40 years now.

448
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But even so, I checked.

449
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's the culture or development
of personal knowledge, or understanding,

450
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
growth or character, 
moral and social qualities, etc.,

451
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as contrasting with 
the imparting of a skill.

452
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(blurred: check)

453
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, there's definitely a place 
for imparting skills,

454
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but that's training, not education,
and there is a difference.

455
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
My Roehampton students study education,
but they are trained to teach.

456
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
England's new computing curriculum
educates people about the principles,

457
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the principles of computer science:
(inaudible: check), I tell you.

458
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(laughter) ... technology, I think 
the technology ran on me tonight,

459
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's all right I'll give it...

460
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(off) (unintelligible)

461
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Berry) 21st century skill 
-- on knowledge -- (laughter)

462
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Knowledge that these things are the wrong
shape for my head: never mind.

463
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, so: England's new computing curriculum
that Jo has alluded to

464
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
educates people about the principles
of computer science,

465
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whereas we used to train them 
to use Office software.

466
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or think about sex.

467
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Look, not like that: we rightly include
sex education on the curriculum in schools

468
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but we typically don't include training.
(Laughter) Important skills.

469
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do without microphones. 
(Laughter) ... very well.

470
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In England, our Education Act says
what education is for.

471
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Firstly, it's to promote the spiritual,
moral, cultural, mental and physical

472
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
development of pupils and of society.

473
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's to prepare pupils 
for the opportunities, responsibilities

474
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and experiences of later life.

475
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What else could education possibly be for?

476
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In that, you just got to love laws
that require you to do

477
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what you'd want to do anyhow.

478
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There does remain a question about
how best to prepare people

479
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for these opportunities, responsibilities
and experiences.

480
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think the nob of the motion this evening
is about whether this should be done

481
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
through some sort of training
in 21st century skills

482
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or by passing on the knowledge, 
understanding and wisdom

483
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of our generation to the next and I'd say,
the latter.

484
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've no problem with skills per se
in teaching.

485
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Behavioral management is a skill,
coding is a skill,

486
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so is searching for things on Google,
or even Bing.

487
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK. I've some problem, though, with the
notion that there are 21st century skills

488
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I'd agree with you on that.

489
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But both of you have done a fine job
of demolishing that notion already.

490
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've also some problem with the skills --
with the notion that skills can transfer.

491
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Skills are about accomplishing something.

492
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's a context to the skills,

493
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I think we diminish specific skills
by attempting to generalize them.

494
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It isn't critical thinking, 
it's thinking critically about something.

495
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's not creativity, 
it's creating something.

496
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's not communication,

497
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's communicating something
through some media.

498
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The 'something' here matters.

499
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's really not possible to teach skills
in the abstract fashion, without context.

500
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the context is king.

501
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Whatever the specific domain,

502
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
knowledge of that domain is necessary
for expert skills.

503
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
My main problem, though, is that
we've only a little time in school.

504
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We've other things to teach and
our students have other things to learn:

505
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things like knowledge

506
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and understanding

507
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and wisdom.

508
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Without these, skills are unlikely to be
of much practical benefit.

509
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Stephen Downes is here.

510
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, nodding in his direction, I'd say,
learning is about connecting things:

511
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
neurons, ideas, people.

512
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The computer scientists get this,

513
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Google's page rank algorithm relies
not so much on the content of the page,

514
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as the links between the pages.

515
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The thing is then, the new stuff has to be
connected to something.

516
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Otherwise, it's just isolated factoids.

517
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We can't make sense of it, 
we can't use new knowledge

518
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
unless it's integrated into our existing
mental maps, our schema.

519
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Put simply: it takes knowledge
to gain knowledge.

520
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This apples to each of us as individuals,
but it's also how civilization grows.

521
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Human achievement is a cumulative thing.

522
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
New knowledge doesn't normally contradict
what's gone before.

523
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It builds on it.

524
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If Newton saw further than others had,

525
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it was because he stood 
on the shoulders of giants.

526
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What hope would there be 
for the next generations

527
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if they had to discover everything afresh
for themselves?

528
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The consequence of our building
on what's gone before

529
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that the pace of cultural, scientific
and technological change

530
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
accelerates exponentially.

531
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But even allowing for this acceleration
is knowledge, understanding and wisdom

532
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which have done the test of time.

533
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Less so, skills.

534
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Expect new inventions and discoveries
over the next 85 years

535
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and new practical skills to go with them.

536
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But don't expect the foundational 
shared knowledge of our civilization

537
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to become irrelevant.

538
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Indeed, it's on this very foundation
that the new knowledge will be built.

539
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's not 21st century skills 
that young people need.

540
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's 21st century knowledge, understanding
and wisdom.

541
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Time, I think, for a quick case study.

542
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The most successful education systems
and the top universities

543
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
seem to organize their curriculum
around well knowledge-based subjects.

544
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
England's new National Curriculum is
quite explicitly a knowledge-based one.

545
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It sets out to provide pupils with 
an introduction to the essential knowledge

546
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they need to be educated as citizens,

547
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and to introduce them to the best
which has been thought and said.

548
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One of the most radical things we've done
in that curriculum,

549
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which many see as rather reactionary,

550
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is to have replaced the old ICT 
with a new subject: computing.

551
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This includes an introduction 
to the principles of computer science

552
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for all, from age 5 up.

553
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It has been my privilege 
to be part of the team

554
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
designing and implementing
the new subject.

555
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Under the old curriculum we offered
a good grounding in tech skills,

556
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
finding this online, 
making a presentation,

557
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
typing up stories, articles and reports.

558
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Sometimes, even making a spreadsheet,
often about having a party.

559
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do people really use spreadsheets
to plan parties?

560
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Are these fun parties? Are these 
-- OK (laughs)

561
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It was fine: pupils moved on to work
or the next phase of education

562
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with some competence and confidence

563
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and broadly speaking, were
digitally literate.

564
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our ...... (check) students 
at Roehampton's

565
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
suggested that broad portfolio skills,

566
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
two thirds regarded them as .... as 
competent, proficient or experts.

567
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That said, it was all too often 
a bit -- well, dull.

568
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's a limit, or at least 
there should be a limit

569
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the number of times you can 
find something out on the internet

570
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and make a presentation about it.

571
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Generally, it did precious little 
to provide any real knowledge

572
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or understanding of computation, 
information theory or digital technology.

573
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In the same audit, less than 15%
of my new students

574
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
rated their understanding of 
digital technology

575
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as competent, proficient or expert.

576
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we started again.

577
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We built on the idea of computing
as having three elements:

578
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
computer science, information technology
and digital literacy,

579
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the foundations, applications and
implications of the discipline.

580
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We took a leaf out of 
William Morris's book:

581
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Have nothing in your house that
you do not know to be useful

582
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"or believe to be beautiful."

583
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And built a curriculum of things 
that would be useful,

584
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but also things that were interesting.

585
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We took a view that the best way 
to prepare pupils for a future

586
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in which digital technology looks 
quite likely to remain important

587
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
was through providing a firm
computer science foundation,

588
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things like logic, algorithms, 
abstraction, networks, programming.

589
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, coding would be important, but not
as a vocational skill for the IT industry,

590
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but as the lab work for computing, 
the medium through which

591
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the ideas of computer science are created
and expressed.

592
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Computer became part of our curriculum
15 months ago.

593
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's early days, but early indications
are very positive.

594
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Teachers' professional development
has been a challenge.

595
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But this hasn't been a challenge about
pedagogical or technical skills.

596
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Teachers know how to teach 
and know how to use technology.

597
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's just that they didn't know 
much computer science.

598
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They are, by and large, willing to learn,

599
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and many are quite enjoying 
the fast challenge.

600
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't want to leave you 
with the idea that I think

601
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
knowledge is the only thing
that matters in education.

602
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Of course it isn't: character matters.

603
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm talking here about traits
and attitudes,

604
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things such as curiosity and creativity
and courage of our 4-year old daughter.

605
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She's a curious character.

606
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She still has this sense of 
wandering the world about her,

607
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that sense of Wow when she sees
or hears something new,

608
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and still a willingness to explore,
experiment and play.

609
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She's at a great little primary school
and I shouldn't worry.

610
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I do worry that her schooling 
might get in the way of her curiosity

611
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when it ought to be nurturing this.

612
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
As Plowden had it back in '67,

613
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
one of the main educational tasks 
of the primary school

614
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is to build on and strengthen children's
intrinsic interest in learning

615
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and lead them to learn for themselves.

616
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator, off) 21st century skill?

617
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Berry) But knowledge matters here.

618
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's as Sophie learns more that I hope
she'll want to learn even more.

619
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
With literacy motivation, and good WiFi,
she can teach herself almost anything,

620
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and does.

621
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Creativity matters.

622
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We learn not just though listening, 
reading and exploring,

623
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but also through making.

624
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't think there's some generic
creativity skill, here.

625
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I'd like my daughter to be creative
in her music and her computing

626
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and her maths, and so on.

627
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She's been making things for a while now,
but as her knowledge grows,

628
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm looking forward to her exploring
and drawing on that in her creative work.

629
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Finally, courage.

630
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
She's a fearless explorer, with tons
of self-confidence.

631
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Off whisper, inaudible)
(Berry) OK.

632
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I want her school to encourage that.

633
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
More importantly, I want her 
to have the courage to tell the truth,

634
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to stand up for those who can't stand up
for themselves

635
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and to do the right thing, 
even if it's not the popular thing.

636
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, what should we be doing 
to best prepare young people

637
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for the opportunities, responsibilities
and experiences of later life?

638
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Passing on knowledge.

639
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Nurturing character.

640
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Sounds a bit old-fashioned, but honestly,

641
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what better preparation 
for the rest of the 21st century?

642
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you.
(Applause).

643
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you very much,
Miles.

644
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Right, it's now over to you and I think
we've got about 25 minutes

645
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for questions and contributions.

646
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you ask a question, I'm going to ask
our panel speakers

647
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not to answer it directly 
but to deal with it in their summing up,

648
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
just so that we can ensure that we have
a decent flow.

649
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And if you make a contribution, please,
try to keep it fairly brief, well, brief,

650
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so that other people 
have a chance as well.

651
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And you've been very well-behaved so far.

652
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Please don't feel that you need to be
quite so well-behaved now,

653
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but now is your opportunity.

654
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you want to speak, 
please just raise your hand.

655
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Bear in mind that if you're at the back,
it is slightly difficult to see you.

656
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And can you, if I call you,

657
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
please can you just wait 
till the microphone turns up.

658
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Who'd like to go first?

659
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Would anybody like to ask a question
or comment?

660
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, at the back on the left, there.

661
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 1) My question is short,
particularly for Allan, I think.

662
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Why are critical thinking skills
important in the 21st century?

663
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator, off) OK. So that's one 
for Allan to deal with in his summing up.

664
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Anybody else, any-- 
Yes, over on the right there, Yannis (check)

665
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 2) Thank you very much.

666
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think both sides of the motion 
are saying it's not working.

667
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So who's to blame, who or what is to blame
or who or what must we change?

668
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator, off) Thank you for that.

669
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Right, I'm looking for some contributions
now, somebody who's --

670
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, lady there, on the, 
just by the aisle, there.

671
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 3) Whoops! OK.

672
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Hi, I just have a comment to all of you.

673
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't see a huge difference 
between your positions,

674
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because you always seem to say,
it's important to have these,

675
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whatever you call them.

676
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Skills is a kind of a talent that you have
when you are born, or whatever.

677
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You mentioned those things are important,
so what is actually the difference?

678
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We just need to promote an environment

679
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to let people develop 
those types of skills or talents.

680
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Yes, also on the aisle there.

681
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 4) Thank you. I want to --

682
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Would you mind just introduce
yourself briefly;

683
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
actually, if people would just say 
who they are and where they're from,

684
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that would be helpful as well.
(Participant 4) OK.

685
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm Denise Gaspard- Richard,
I'm from the University

686
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the West Indies and Caribbean--
(Moderator) Thank you.

687
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 4) ..... Campus.

688
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The board said to me, seemed to be saying
somewhat of the same thing.

689
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
As you were speaking, I kept thinking 
about some employers' surveys

690
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we have done over a period of time
in the Caribbean,

691
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where the ..... (check),

692
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
soft skills are not really being taught 
at the University.

693
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So when a student comes out
in today work environment,

694
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they can't carry out a decent conversation
and therefore they can't call up

695
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
someone who is not getting
the kind of service that they need,

696
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they don't know how to communicate
in .............. (check) OK?

697
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So when I listened to Jo, I heard 
some of that coming out

698
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I'm wondering if, probably, 
we have simply substituted

699
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
social skills, or soft skills to call it
21st century skills.

700
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we have more or less seen 
the same things

701
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as we were seeing before we came up
with this terminology. Thank you.

702
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that.
Anybody else?

703
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, in the front row, there.
Just down here, please.

704
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is there a mike here in the front row
on my right? That's it.

705
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 5) Thank you. 
My name is Anne DeLorean (check)

706
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from the European Schoolnet in Brussels.

707
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A comment: I think maybe we are missing
the adaptive nature of human beings,

708
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because society has progressed 
through the ages because --

709
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
just because we are adaptive.

710
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We have not always had to be taught
everything we do,

711
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but we have to discover it a little bit.

712
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think, as educators, what we need to do
is provide the -- at the area or the ethos

713
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where this discovery can happen,

714
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not necessarily that we have to provide
the lessons to do it

715
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but provide the means of discovery.

716
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you. Let's have 
another one on the front, here.

717
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Lady on the front row 
on the left hand side here.

718
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 6) My name is Nikki Spalding,
from Higher Education Academy in the UK.

719
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was wondering what do you think
is driving the rhetoric

720
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
behind 21st century skills the most?

721
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is it happy individuals and learners?
Happy employers? Happy society?

722
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or happy Government Treasury?

723
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that.

724
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, towards the back there, 
on the right hand side.

725
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 7) Lydia .... (check)

726
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You have concentrated on education
of young people.

727
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And what about education of people
at your age?

728
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Who and how (laugher) should you educate
these 21st century skills or knowledge?

729
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Very good question indeed.
So, we'll come back to that one.

730
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, we have a number on this side, in the
-- where has the microphone gone?

731
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, just at the front 
of this little block there, thank you.

732
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 8) My name is Mike Rauser (check), 
from McKinsey and Company in Germany.

733
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And my question is directed to Mr Barry.

734
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Where you've stressed 
teaching specific skills,

735
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
please correct me if I'm wrong, about
teaching specific skills in schools.

736
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How do you account for situations where

737
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a skill that may not even 
have been invented yet

738
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-- I'm thinking about say, 
from an 1980 view point,

739
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
15 years in the future, that
nobody knew what the internet was.

740
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Nobody knew it was to be in there
15 years later.

741
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
OK, very limited.

742
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Off) I think the internet 
was invented in 1969.

743
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(P8) (overlap with moderator) 
OK, I understand that in general--

744
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Can we -- If you could just 
try to make it a contribution

745
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then they can respond 
in their final remarks.

746
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(P8) Sure enough
(Moderator) OK (overlap)

747
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(P8) -- that we don't know about
15 years into the future,

748
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or skills that are here now, that may
no longer be there 15 years into the future.

749
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let's hope that's a little clearer.

750
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, thank you.

751
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Can I have some more contributions,
rather than questions?

752
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Anybody like to give their opinion?
Yes, on the --

753
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think about the third row here.

754
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 9) So actually it's phrased
as a question,

755
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but think of it as a contribution.
(Moderator) Yes (laughter).

756
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A rhetorical contribution.

757
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(P9) So all of you have been arguing
for or against 21st century skills

758
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
very convincingly.

759
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But you were always talking about
what they are,

760
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and not about what they aren't.

761
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So maybe, if the question is phrased
a bit differently,

762
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you would need to make 
a more difficult point, so:

763
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what do you think are skills that are
no longer relevant,

764
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or knowledge that is no longer relevant
now in the 21st century,

765
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that was indeed very important
200 years ago?

766
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) What would your answer
to your own question be?

767
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(P9) I would have to think about it.
(Moderator) Right. (Laughter)

768
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Right, at the -- right at the back,
we've got two hands up there.

769
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
At the back, somebody with a dark-colored
jacket on -- that's it.

770
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 10) Mike Brown,

771
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from the National Institute 
of Digital Learning in Ireland,

772
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A question, but equally a contribution.

773
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What do you think, 
what does the panel think,

774
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
22nd century skills will be?

775
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Particularly, particularly 
if we fail to achieve

776
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the post-2015 
Sustainable Development Goals?

777
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Right. Next to -- 
at the back, there.

778
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 11) I think 
we've lost the plot.

779
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
30 years ago, many students started
overtaking the teachers in knowledge.

780
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Our school server was looked after
by students, pupils, rather than teachers,

781
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because they couldn't do it.

782
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that happens all the while.

783
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Medical patients are getting 
more knowledge than the doctors,

784
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because they search the internet
before they go to the doctor's

785
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about their own disease.

786
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So I think we have got no chance,
we can't teach anymore.

787
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, thank you for that.
Somebody standing up there --

788
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes. (inaudible) on to them.
Hello, Clark (check)?

789
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 12) Yes. Hi, my name is 
...... (check) from Sweden

790
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I work with a software company
developing ideation software.

791
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
My contribution is that I wonder
if we should not dig even deeper

792
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and see if this is a structural problem,
because I'd like to say that these skills

793
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are being taught.

794
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We see today that people are in two
different types of networks:

795
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they are in centralized or distributed
networks at work or at school,

796
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but distributed in their spare time.

797
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we see also that 
these different types of networks

798
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
cultivate different types of values.

799
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So it could be an organizational problem,

800
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but also a value problem, 
if we dig even deeper.

801
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
For example, 
from advertising to conversation

802
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from ownership to sharing,
from profit to growth --

803
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sorry, from profit to sustainability,
and so on.

804
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So my contribution is basically, maybe
the problem is even deeper,

805
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
maybe it has to do about 
how we are organized,

806
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the values that those organizations
cultivate.

807
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that
(Applause)

808
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, down in the front block here,
in the middle.

809
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 13) I'm Cory Doctorow, 
from the morning plenary.

810
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It seems to me that education has been
refactored over the last several decades

811
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as a kind of factory, 
whose product is educated children,

812
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with teachers as employees,

813
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the board of directors as the Ministry
of Education, God help us, Michael Gove,

814
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as the CEO.
(laughter)

815
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it seems like, when you organize
something around the idea

816
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that the public are shareholders and that 
we're doing something that's a business,

817
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you have to have a ...... (check) report
where some numbers go up

818
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to show that the business is thriving.

819
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And as a result, we are rear-fighting (check)

820
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things that are not 
pedagogically supported,

821
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like attendance and 
standardized test scores,

822
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
rather than things that are pedagogically
supported as real learning,

823
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which are often not quantifiable
and are difficult to recognize,

824
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
except as a kind of creative fog
that you see your students in,

825
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where they are excited and 
are really chasing knowledge.

826
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so now we're -- can be obsessed
with turning children into

827
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
second-rate spreadsheets or 
third-rate spellcheckers,

828
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
instead of teaching them arithmetic
and language.

829
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It seems like a focus on skills,

830
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
without reference to the way 
that we frame education,

831
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
gets us nowhere.

832
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Adding standardized tests' outcomes
where we look at

833
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whether or not you've acquired 
21st century skills,

834
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
ignores the fact that anything 
that you try to teach,

835
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where the only way you're evaluated
is with high-stake testing,

836
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
gives you nothing,

837
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
except for someone who has been 
crammed full of a bunch of facts

838
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that they'll promptly forget
when they leave school,

839
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and no synthetic capability.

840
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that.

841
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Yes, on the side of this block here,
on the left.

842
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 14) Thank you. 
I am ..... (check) from the Investor Malawi.


843
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
My question is, I don't know if we know
what we're talking about.

844
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Laughter)

845
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In Africa, we believe that if 
you don't know where you're going,

846
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then the Lord can take you there. (check)

847
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Are we changing education, 
although we are using,

848
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we attempt to coexist two educations,
or we are neglecting education. Thank you.

849
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you. Yes, in the middle
of the front block again, and then

850
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'll come over to this one.

851
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 15) Hi, ........ from ....
University of Applied Science.

852
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
As a university of applied science,
we're teaching skills like hell:

853
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
social skills, soft skills,
technical skills, all this stuff.

854
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But maybe we are missing out the values
behind these skills,

855
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because they aren't the things 
in the future. (check)

856
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you. Let's go
into this block in the front here,

857
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on the right hand side, the -- the lady 
there, I think, just in front of the camera.

858
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 16) My name is
Lisa .......... (check)

859
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I work at ...... in the United States.

860
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think my comment really builds on some 
of the things that Cory Doctorow said.

861
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You could argue that the premise 
that we are arguing

862
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is actually the wrong question.

863
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's not important, we -- just teaching
the 21st century skills isn't enough.

864
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Those skills have to be honed, practiced
and applied,

865
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for them to do anything.

866
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So it's not about the teaching, it's about

867
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what should the students do 
with the teaching after that.

868
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that.
Let's have another one on this side.

869
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One here on the front -- front row.

870
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 17) Good evening, I'm 
.......... (check) of the European Schoolnet,

871
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I want to be also provocative and
I'm thinking about the role you mentioned.

872
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What's the role of education?

873
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Are we pushed by industry to deliver
certain things or not?

874
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I'm thinking, what's the role
of the parents in all that?

875
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is it maybe the role of the parents
to teach these kinds of things?

876
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You talked, Miles, 
about character building

877
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I think there are certain things
school can do,

878
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I have, at least for my generation,
a little bit of feeling that parents

879
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
share a little bit, sometimes,
the responsibility to school,

880
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to technology, and maybe it's time
to be a good parent again.

881
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that.
(Applause)

882
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Right at the back, there, 
on the right hand side,

883
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
right at the back in the middle.

884
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 18) Hi: Bernard Sander
from New York University.

885
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I grew up developing my own films.

886
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Though I'm a pretty adequate digital
photographer, I did research

887
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
using card catalogs and paper indexes
and microfiche,

888
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I am a more than adequate 
digital researcher.

889
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think the story is the same
for most of the people in the room.

890
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So the question really is, what was
inadequate about my education?

891
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Nothing I did in the 20th century
hasn't prepared me

892
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for what 21st century has begun.

893
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And as long as I'm competent

894
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in my capacity to search 
for new information

895
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and in being willing to put any effort
to acquire new skills,

896
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't feel that I'm unprepared,

897
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I don't frankly think that any student
is really unprepared,

898
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as long as they have that.

899
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So what is it that the 21st century brings
that is so unique,

900
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
other than the fact that 
they can make a mistake

901
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and be seen by everybody all at once
in three seconds,

902
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
right? so you know, that's fun.

903
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But other than that little piece,
what's new?

904
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that.

905
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Right at the back, against the wall,
with a red tie. That's it.

906
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 19) I'm Eric Balance (check)

907
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I'm from the Education, Audiovisual
and Culture Executive Agency.

908
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We're talking about skills,

909
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because our employers tell us 
that our kids don't have them.

910
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Why are we not asking about the skills,
not the employers,

911
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but society is asking for?

912
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Yes, next door 
to the last speaker.

913
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 20) .......... (check) 
from the UK.

914
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've changed jobs now, 
but in a previous life

915
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've worked with many, many teachers,
primary and secondary,

916
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and they will tell you that 
all of the skills you're talking about,

917
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with creativity, adaptation, rhetoric,

918
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
all of them are what they are 
trying to teach,

919
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when they are not delivering 
standardized tests.

920
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So the question is,

921
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
do we want the education system to be
told to do a certain thing

922
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or are we trying to encourage it
from the inside?

923
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because I think they are two 
different things.

924
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Yes (Applause).
Thank you for that.

925
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In the front row here, 
on the left hand side. 1:02:30

926
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 21) Hello, this is Philip 
from IBA

927
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I wonder if we're not discussing
on a completely too advanced level.

928
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I just got an email from the school
of my son, today,

929
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where the school counselor had decided
that -- and that was the name --

930
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that game boys should be left home.

931
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Which makes me think if what we're 
discussing here is not way away

932
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from what the reality looks like,

933
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because we're here sitting and discussing 
really interesting topics,

934
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and in our ideal state of mind,
it's something like that.

935
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And then I go out and see people like
Donald Trump who are ......... check

936
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about our education system,

937
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is a reason for shutting 
the whole thing down, I think.

938
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Laughter, applause)

939
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you for that. Yes,
another one here, in the front block.

940
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 22) Hello, I come from 
the University of Oslo, Norway,

941
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
...... (check name).

942
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There was quite a lot of investigation 
in Norway, a few years back.

943
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They asked employers, I would like to go
to employers:

944
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"What kinds of skills are you looking for

945
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"in a candidate that you consider 
employing?"

946
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the first one was: 
ability to cooperate.

947
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Then we asked to ourselves,
are we doing that?

948
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And then the next one on the list was
ability to attain new knowledge;

949
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
next, ability to think independently
and critically;

950
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
communication skills; ability 
to use knowledge in new fields;

951
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
ability to establish contact 
........... (check) relations.

952
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And again, we're not doing these things,
we're not -- kind of.

953
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Point 7 on the list was good theoretical
knowledge in your field of science.

954
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's what we're doing all the time.

955
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean it's great to see 
so many people here

956
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but let's face it, most people
are not here. (Laughter)

957
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That means that lectures -- I mean it's 
great to see many people at this meeting,

958
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
concerned with teaching in general,
but the fact is that most lectures,

959
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
say basic course in first year mathematic,
whatever, at my university,

960
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are being taught today in exactly 
the same way as when I was a student,

961
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
thirty years ago.

962
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So that's why this conference 
is important,

963
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's why we need to provide students --
some people have to take responsibility

964
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to provide students with the skills 
that employers need.

965
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Applause)
(Moderator) Thank you.

966
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There was another question just near
to the last speaker, in the same block,

967
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the lady there, just the row in front,
I think.

968
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 23) Hi, Lisa, 
with the Global School Network.

969
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And ........ (check)

970
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
perhaps it's not just what skills 
we're teaching, but more so

971
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what 21st century pedagogical skills
that we're using, in that

972
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sometimes it's just as important
how it's being taught

973
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than what is being taught.

974
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think back to my college and
in some of the courses,

975
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sometimes when I was going through
the course catalog,

976
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it wasn't how exciting the title was,
but who was teaching it.

977
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think that goes back to 
some of the test scores

978
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that teachers are very focused on as well.

979
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And when I look at my daughter
who has started school

980
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and what when I started school
30 years ago,

981
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and looking at how she is being taught

982
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
-- taking away from ...... (check)
what should be included --

983
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but a lot of that rote learning and a lot
of new skills they're using as well, so.

984
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, thank you, another one
in the ..... (check) over there

985
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 24) Hi, my name is ...... (check)

986
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I work for UNESCO.

987
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I just want to ask, 
not just for the panelists,

988
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I think for everyone.

989
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Maybe after 20, 30 years or so, are we
still going to talk about the same thing?

990
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or are we going to -- what the idea
would be the next topic

991
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we're going to talk about?

992
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I just wanted to also reiterate what 
our head of office is actually saying,

993
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean -- ..... (check name) --

994
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
he always say that the world is not
hungry for more words, more resolutions,

995
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
more talks and more panel discussions.

996
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The world is actually hungry 
for more actions.

997
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you very much.

998
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) Thank you. We've got about
5 minutes left for questions.

999
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Please, so if you want to ask a question,
just stick your hand up

1000
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then we can get an idea: 
I think there is about three more.

1001
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, the man right at the back 
on the back of the aisle here,

1002
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on the right hand side, please, first.

1003
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 25) Hi, ............. (check name)
from London.

1004
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Miles mentioned knowledge and character,

1005
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think one thing left out here is values.

1006
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So you know, we need knowledge
to do things,

1007
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we need skills to do things,

1008
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but we first have to agree at
what's worthy of doing.

1009
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Moderator) OK, thank you, and there was
a question, again on the aisle, here,

1010
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on the left hand side -- 
lady just down here: that's it.

1011
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(Participant 26) It's not really 
a question, but a challenge, maybe

1012
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for the panelists.

1013
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I miss a little bit of diversity, so
maybe more ethnical background,

1014
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
different ethnical backgrounds
looking at the same question 1:08:09