1 00:00:00,062 --> 00:00:06,809 ♪ [up-tempo opening music] ♪ 2 00:00:06,809 --> 00:00:09,196 >>[KEVIN DEYOUNG, HOST] Greetings and salutations. 3 00:00:09,196 --> 00:00:11,430 Welcome back to “Life & Books & Everything.” 4 00:00:11,430 --> 00:00:13,026 I'm Kevin DeYoung, Senior Pastor 5 00:00:13,026 --> 00:00:15,711 at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, North Carolina. 6 00:00:15,711 --> 00:00:21,163 And I am joined today by my special guest, Melissa Kearney. 7 00:00:21,163 --> 00:00:26,209 And we're going to talk about her new book called “The Two-Parent Privilege.” 8 00:00:26,209 --> 00:00:31,243 Melissa has a very august resume here. 9 00:00:31,243 --> 00:00:34,838 She's Professor of Economics at the University of Maryland; 10 00:00:34,838 --> 00:00:38,608 director of a number of different research groups; 11 00:00:38,608 --> 00:00:41,323 and a nonresident, senior fellow at Brookings; 12 00:00:41,323 --> 00:00:45,857 and a scholar in a number of different labs and affiliations and journals 13 00:00:45,857 --> 00:00:48,902 and lots of good academic work that she's done. 14 00:00:48,902 --> 00:00:53,802 She did her undergraduate at Princeton, PhD in Economics at MIT. 15 00:00:53,802 --> 00:00:57,001 Melissa, thank you for coming on here to talk about your new book. 16 00:00:57,001 --> 00:00:59,118 >>[MELISSA KEARNEY, GUEST] Happy to be here. 17 00:00:59,118 --> 00:01:00,620 Thanks so much for having me. 18 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:04,126 >>[DEYOUNG] So this is a book about parents, 19 00:01:04,126 --> 00:01:11,612 and it's a book where you're using your expertise as a trained academic economist. 20 00:01:11,612 --> 00:01:13,821 But you also write personally. 21 00:01:13,821 --> 00:01:16,463 You say at the beginning and at the end, in particular, 22 00:01:16,463 --> 00:01:21,763 that you're a mom and an economist, and that's in the correct order. 23 00:01:21,763 --> 00:01:23,295 That's what's most important. 24 00:01:23,295 --> 00:01:27,571 And you have three kids. So tell us about your family. 25 00:01:27,571 --> 00:01:31,146 >>[KEARNEY] Okay. It's exactly right. I'm a trained economist, 26 00:01:31,146 --> 00:01:36,341 but I think the greatest thing I do is be a mom to my three kids, 27 00:01:36,341 --> 00:01:42,964 a boy and two girls, and I'm raising them with my husband in suburban Maryland. 28 00:01:42,964 --> 00:01:45,937 >>[DEYOUNG] And how did you get to the University of Maryland? 29 00:01:45,937 --> 00:01:49,007 And are you a big “Terps” [Terrapins] sports fan? 30 00:01:49,007 --> 00:01:52,653 >>[KEARNEY, chuckling] I mean, I admit that I spend most of my time 31 00:01:52,653 --> 00:01:54,289 over in the economics department, 32 00:01:54,289 --> 00:01:57,320 but I do cheer for the Terps every now and then, 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,154 and I'm delighted when they do well. 34 00:02:00,154 --> 00:02:04,105 I have been at the University of Maryland for 17 years now; 35 00:02:04,105 --> 00:02:10,106 moved down to DC from the Boston area probably 19 years ago; 36 00:02:10,106 --> 00:02:14,943 went to Brookings on a two-year fellowship, did some dedicated research there 37 00:02:14,943 --> 00:02:17,911 on topics that I've been working on for over two decades 38 00:02:17,911 --> 00:02:22,311 (U.S. inequality, poverty, child and family well-being); 39 00:02:22,311 --> 00:02:26,326 and then took a tenure track job at Maryland where I've been ever since, 40 00:02:26,326 --> 00:02:30,559 and I enjoy teaching the undergrads there and training PhD students there 41 00:02:30,559 --> 00:02:36,560 and working as part of a really intellectually vibrant economics department. 42 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,459 >>[DEYOUNG] And how did you get interested in this topic, 43 00:02:39,459 --> 00:02:41,303 which I know is part of broader interest. 44 00:02:41,303 --> 00:02:43,953 You just mentioned inequality and other things, 45 00:02:43,953 --> 00:02:50,270 but this area having to do with families and parents? 46 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:52,229 >>[KEARNEY] Since I was an undergrad, 47 00:02:52,229 --> 00:02:59,635 I've really been interested in the economic and social lives of women and children. 48 00:02:59,635 --> 00:03:02,707 I really have sort of always had an interest 49 00:03:02,707 --> 00:03:07,252 in questions about how society works or doesn't work well for certain groups of people 50 00:03:07,252 --> 00:03:11,637 with a particular interest in less economically advantaged groups. 51 00:03:11,637 --> 00:03:15,594 And so those are the questions that brought me to economics, actually. 52 00:03:15,594 --> 00:03:18,147 Let me just say, because a lot of people, I think, 53 00:03:18,147 --> 00:03:22,487 think about economics as finance or stock picking and that kind of thing, 54 00:03:22,487 --> 00:03:26,391 which is nothing to do with the kind of economics I do. 55 00:03:26,391 --> 00:03:30,508 You know, as an undergrad, I was interested in questions of society and public policy, 56 00:03:30,508 --> 00:03:34,620 took a bunch of those classes, 57 00:03:34,620 --> 00:03:41,478 but loved the sort of rigor and theory and empirical work of economics. 58 00:03:41,478 --> 00:03:46,893 And so I use those tools of economics to ask these questions. 59 00:03:46,893 --> 00:03:51,021 How did I become interested in questions about women and families? 60 00:03:51,021 --> 00:03:54,224 I suppose it has to do with, you know, 61 00:03:54,224 --> 00:03:58,485 like many of us being interested in the world around us the way we grew up. 62 00:03:58,485 --> 00:04:03,224 And so it was, you know, I grew up in New Jersey in the ‘80s, 63 00:04:03,224 --> 00:04:08,243 very cognizant of the fact that I had educational opportunities, 64 00:04:08,243 --> 00:04:12,726 economic opportunities that my mom and my grandma and their sisters didn't have. 65 00:04:12,726 --> 00:04:15,560 And so were my grandma's sisters didn't have. 66 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,441 And so those kinds of questions really were at the forefront of my mind. 67 00:04:19,441 --> 00:04:21,711 And then I spent a summer in college — 68 00:04:21,711 --> 00:04:25,592 this was really a very salient experience for me — 69 00:04:25,592 --> 00:04:27,072 I spent a summer in college 70 00:04:27,072 --> 00:04:30,077 working at a welfare-to-work center in Bridgeport, Connecticut. 71 00:04:30,077 --> 00:04:35,287 And you know, got to know and work with women who were my age at the time, 72 00:04:35,287 --> 00:04:39,870 probably between 17 and 22, and they were all moms receiving welfare, 73 00:04:39,870 --> 00:04:43,857 and they had to go to this training program in order to keep their benefits. 74 00:04:43,857 --> 00:04:48,223 But that summer just, you know, really sort of cemented my interest 75 00:04:48,223 --> 00:04:52,038 in thinking about how policies and economic conditions 76 00:04:52,038 --> 00:04:55,439 affect the decisions and well-being of women and families. 77 00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:58,357 And so that's been a common thread of my research 78 00:04:58,357 --> 00:05:01,205 throughout my time as an academic economist. 79 00:05:01,205 --> 00:05:07,140 >>[DEYOUNG] So I'm not an expert in these things. I'm a pastor. 80 00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:12,656 My PhD is in history, but I like reading these things. 81 00:05:12,656 --> 00:05:17,769 And so I was interested to read not only you citing Sarah McLanahan a number of times, 82 00:05:17,769 --> 00:05:20,272 but you had her at Princeton. 83 00:05:20,272 --> 00:05:22,079 So tell us about her influence. 84 00:05:22,079 --> 00:05:25,756 And anyone who's read in this area of marriage and family 85 00:05:25,756 --> 00:05:29,539 knows that she's done lots of really important empirical research. 86 00:05:29,539 --> 00:05:34,858 What role did she play in your intellectual formation or interest in this? 87 00:05:34,858 --> 00:05:38,605 >>[KEARNEY] Sarah McClanahan really was a pioneer in this field. 88 00:05:38,605 --> 00:05:43,441 She created or launched what was called “The Fragile Family Survey” 89 00:05:43,441 --> 00:05:48,523 that you know, interviewed and collected data 90 00:05:48,523 --> 00:05:53,709 on unmarried parents at the time of their child's birth and tracked them over time. 91 00:05:53,709 --> 00:05:57,074 And so it's really a credit to Sarah McClanahan 92 00:05:57,074 --> 00:06:00,086 that we have as much information as we do 93 00:06:00,086 --> 00:06:07,105 on these particularly vulnerable families: unmarried parents, mostly low-income. 94 00:06:07,105 --> 00:06:11,740 And so she really trained a lot of students in this field. 95 00:06:11,740 --> 00:06:17,040 I am actually not— I don't consider myself a direct trainee of Sarah. 96 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:18,923 She was a sociologist, 97 00:06:18,923 --> 00:06:23,839 but I did have the great fortune of taking her Sociology of Poverty class 98 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,051 when I was an undergrad, even though I was an economics major. 99 00:06:27,051 --> 00:06:33,241 And it was in her class that I was really introduced to this topic of family structure 100 00:06:33,241 --> 00:06:38,035 as it relates to poverty and child well-being. 101 00:06:38,035 --> 00:06:40,839 I think that was really formative 102 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,954 because economists sort of pose questions in different ways. 103 00:06:44,954 --> 00:06:49,506 And so my work as an economist over the past 20 plus years, 104 00:06:49,506 --> 00:06:51,968 looking at inequality and poverty 105 00:06:51,968 --> 00:06:57,152 has tended to focus on issues other than family structure. 106 00:06:57,152 --> 00:06:58,183 >>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hm. 107 00:06:58,183 --> 00:07:02,027 [KEARNEY] But I was, like, teed up to recognize the importance of that early on, 108 00:07:02,027 --> 00:07:05,928 having been exposed to Sarah McLanahan as a professor and her work from early on. 109 00:07:05,928 --> 00:07:09,880 And so, actually, that's sort of the confluence of those events, 110 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,181 (me being an economist, bringing an economist lens to the topic 111 00:07:13,181 --> 00:07:20,550 but knowing Sarah McClanahan's work really well) I think has just kept me noticing. 112 00:07:20,550 --> 00:07:25,833 Every time there's a study on inequality, social mobility, kids' outcomes, 113 00:07:25,833 --> 00:07:29,220 you just see how important family structure is in the data. 114 00:07:29,220 --> 00:07:32,836 And so, I think, you know, it was she— 115 00:07:32,836 --> 00:07:37,484 knowing her work, having her teach me early on in my studies of these topics 116 00:07:37,484 --> 00:07:41,636 has just sort of heightened my awareness 117 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:45,789 of the role of family structure in driving these kinds of economic outcomes. 118 00:07:45,789 --> 00:07:51,768 >>[DEYOUNG] Give you the lens to see what maybe other people haven't seen 119 00:07:51,768 --> 00:07:53,152 or didn't want to see. 120 00:07:53,152 --> 00:07:56,537 We'll get to that in a moment. But let's jump into your book. 121 00:07:56,537 --> 00:07:59,627 So I'm talking to Melissa Kearney, “The Two-Parent Privilege: 122 00:07:59,627 --> 00:08:03,521 How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.” 123 00:08:03,521 --> 00:08:07,419 It just came out this fall, published by University of Chicago Press. 124 00:08:07,419 --> 00:08:11,652 So big-picture question, What is the “two-parent privilege”? 125 00:08:11,652 --> 00:08:16,469 [KEARNEY] The two-parent privilege, as I'm using the term, refers to the fact 126 00:08:16,469 --> 00:08:23,059 that having two parents in one's home confers a lot of advantages to children. 127 00:08:23,059 --> 00:08:28,150 This is VERY well established in the data and in empirical research. 128 00:08:28,150 --> 00:08:33,836 The reason I call it a privilege is because not only is this a very advantageous situation, 129 00:08:33,836 --> 00:08:35,832 but increasingly in this country, 130 00:08:35,832 --> 00:08:39,722 this has become an advantageous situation 131 00:08:39,722 --> 00:08:44,710 enjoyed disproportionately by an already advantaged class. 132 00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:48,848 And so it's really now college-educated parents 133 00:08:48,848 --> 00:08:54,477 who continue to raise their kids in two-parent homes at very high rates. 134 00:08:54,477 --> 00:08:56,777 Meanwhile, over the past 40 years, 135 00:08:56,777 --> 00:09:01,242 the share of children being raised in two-parent households, 136 00:09:01,242 --> 00:09:06,208 among those who were born to parents WITHOUT a four-year college degree 137 00:09:06,208 --> 00:09:12,704 has decreased by a really sizable amount and has just been a steady downward trend. 138 00:09:12,704 --> 00:09:17,756 And so now, having a two-parent family is yet another privilege 139 00:09:17,756 --> 00:09:23,092 of the already most privileged economic class in American society. 140 00:09:23,092 --> 00:09:24,982 >>[DEYOUNG] So this is how you put it. 141 00:09:24,982 --> 00:09:28,693 You have some great summaries at the end and at the beginning, 142 00:09:28,693 --> 00:09:31,417 but here's one in the preface. 143 00:09:31,417 --> 00:09:34,621 You say, I've studied U.S. poverty, inequality, family structure 144 00:09:34,621 --> 00:09:36,411 for almost a quarter of a century. 145 00:09:36,411 --> 00:09:41,412 I approached these issues as a hard-headed (albeit soft-hearted) MIT-trained economist. 146 00:09:41,412 --> 00:09:45,535 Based on the overwhelming evidence at hand, I can say with the utmost confidence 147 00:09:45,535 --> 00:09:49,167 that the decline in marriage and the corresponding rise in the share 148 00:09:49,167 --> 00:09:51,299 of children being raised in one-parent homes 149 00:09:51,299 --> 00:09:55,346 has contributed to the economic insecurity of American families; 150 00:09:55,346 --> 00:09:58,463 has widened gap in opportunities and outcomes 151 00:09:58,463 --> 00:10:00,497 for children from different backgrounds; 152 00:10:00,497 --> 00:10:03,546 and today poses economic and social challenges 153 00:10:03,546 --> 00:10:08,235 that we cannot afford to ignore, but may not be able to reverse.” 154 00:10:08,235 --> 00:10:15,485 I found a quotation just again, Sarah McClanahan and Isabel Sawhill say 155 00:10:15,485 --> 00:10:18,080 (this is the 2015 journal “Future of Children”) 156 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:19,984 quote “Most scholars now agree 157 00:10:19,984 --> 00:10:23,222 that children raised by two biological parents in a stable marriage 158 00:10:23,222 --> 00:10:27,165 do better than children and other family forms across a wide range of outcomes.” 159 00:10:27,165 --> 00:10:31,095 I want to dive into the data that you give in just a moment, 160 00:10:31,095 --> 00:10:37,281 but back up a little bit and talk about Why is this so hard to talk about? 161 00:10:37,281 --> 00:10:39,545 because it's very clear in reading your book 162 00:10:39,545 --> 00:10:44,386 that you're trying very hard to stick with the data 163 00:10:44,386 --> 00:10:48,478 and not to make moral value judgments. 164 00:10:48,478 --> 00:10:53,228 I'm a pastor, so I can't avoid, you know, when I'm speaking from the Bible, 165 00:10:53,228 --> 00:10:56,860 making some value judgments that I think the Bible teaches. 166 00:10:56,860 --> 00:11:02,329 But that's obviously not what you're doing, and you're studiously trying to avoid that. 167 00:11:02,329 --> 00:11:03,962 And yet, you talk at the beginning 168 00:11:03,962 --> 00:11:08,675 about how these conversations at academic conferences, 169 00:11:08,675 --> 00:11:12,918 “I'm an economist, much more comfortable talking about earned income tax credit 170 00:11:12,918 --> 00:11:14,680 and other kind of policy.” 171 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:18,581 And when you talk about, well, what about marriage? 172 00:11:18,581 --> 00:11:20,205 It's the proverbial lead balloon. 173 00:11:20,205 --> 00:11:21,851 What has your experience been? 174 00:11:21,851 --> 00:11:24,550 Why is even talking about this so difficult, 175 00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:28,921 probably, especially for someone like you in academic atmosphere? 176 00:11:28,921 --> 00:11:30,563 [KEARNEY, chuckling] That's right. 177 00:11:30,563 --> 00:11:33,418 So I have had plenty of people comment on my book. 178 00:11:33,418 --> 00:11:35,385 This isn't hard for ME to talk about. 179 00:11:35,385 --> 00:11:38,334 I talk about it with my church friends all the time. 180 00:11:38,334 --> 00:11:39,781 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. Right. 181 00:11:39,781 --> 00:11:41,588 [KEARNEY But in academic settings, 182 00:11:41,588 --> 00:11:44,599 it's difficult, and there's a lot of reasons here. 183 00:11:44,599 --> 00:11:47,702 I'm going to say most of them are very, very well intentioned, 184 00:11:47,702 --> 00:11:53,227 which is that most of us don't want to sound like 185 00:11:53,227 --> 00:11:58,541 we're blaming single mothers for their difficult circumstances… 186 00:11:58,541 --> 00:11:59,983 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 187 00:11:59,983 --> 00:12:03,352 [KEARNEY] …and the relative disadvantage that their children suffers. 188 00:12:03,352 --> 00:12:07,067 And I mean, I certainly don't want to sound like I'm blaming mothers. 189 00:12:07,067 --> 00:12:11,521 But also very sincerely, I mean this. I'm NOT blaming the single mothers. 190 00:12:11,521 --> 00:12:14,996 I'm recognizing that this is a challenging situation. 191 00:12:14,996 --> 00:12:20,695 Any of us who are parents would, I think, readily recognize that parenting is difficult. 192 00:12:20,695 --> 00:12:25,166 Doing it by oneself is, you know, that much more difficult. 193 00:12:25,166 --> 00:12:28,185 So there's a genuine empathy there. 194 00:12:28,185 --> 00:12:33,934 But I think people get nervous about calling attention to the relative disadvantage 195 00:12:33,934 --> 00:12:36,448 that kids from single-mother homes face 196 00:12:36,448 --> 00:12:41,166 because it sounds like we're blaming people who are in a very tough spot. 197 00:12:41,166 --> 00:12:42,270 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 198 00:12:42,270 --> 00:12:47,437 [KEARNEY] Right? And I think we should be very capable of recognizing 199 00:12:47,437 --> 00:12:50,768 that single parents — the majority of whom are still single moms — 200 00:12:50,768 --> 00:12:55,230 single parents are in a very difficult spot, and that puts their kids in a difficult spot. 201 00:12:55,230 --> 00:12:59,319 And so we should be able to recognize that and have an honest conversation about it. 202 00:12:59,319 --> 00:13:05,566 The other reason I think as academics, as economists interested in policy, 203 00:13:05,566 --> 00:13:07,303 it becomes difficult for us to talk about 204 00:13:07,303 --> 00:13:09,934 is because we don't have a very good answer 205 00:13:09,934 --> 00:13:13,396 to the critical question of: “Well, what do we do about it?” 206 00:13:13,396 --> 00:13:14,338 >>[DEYOUNG] Yes. 207 00:13:14,338 --> 00:13:16,798 >>[KEARNEY] Right? So if we talk instead 208 00:13:16,798 --> 00:13:19,197 about the fact that our tax code is not progressive enough 209 00:13:19,197 --> 00:13:21,002 or we're not raising enough revenue 210 00:13:21,002 --> 00:13:25,532 to cover expenses of things we feel like we might need to pay for, 211 00:13:25,532 --> 00:13:30,772 like more early childhood education or more public subsidies of childcare, 212 00:13:30,772 --> 00:13:32,835 it's pretty easy for us to sit in a room 213 00:13:32,835 --> 00:13:35,663 and come up with ways to make the tax code more progressive 214 00:13:35,663 --> 00:13:39,537 or design transfer programs to reach more people. 215 00:13:39,537 --> 00:13:44,980 It becomes a lot harder for us, and it takes us out of our real comfort zone 216 00:13:44,980 --> 00:13:46,821 when it comes to things like: 217 00:13:46,821 --> 00:13:51,248 How do we affect very personal decisions people are making 218 00:13:51,248 --> 00:13:54,835 about how to form their families and raise their children? 219 00:13:54,835 --> 00:13:55,586 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yeah. 220 00:13:55,586 --> 00:13:59,185 It's very personal, and it's almost impossible 221 00:13:59,185 --> 00:14:05,003 for any of us to talk about this or hear it without thinking of how I grew up, 222 00:14:05,003 --> 00:14:06,787 how I'm raising my kids. 223 00:14:06,787 --> 00:14:10,520 Do I have kids, all these personal things? I think that's why it's so difficult. 224 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,550 There was a survey. I found these a couple years ago. 225 00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:16,399 It's an online survey, whatever they're worth. 226 00:14:16,399 --> 00:14:18,653 I don't know the scientific methodology here, 227 00:14:18,653 --> 00:14:21,945 but it said, more than 70% of participants believed 228 00:14:21,945 --> 00:14:26,314 that a single parent can do just as good a job as two parents. 229 00:14:26,314 --> 00:14:31,480 60% of women (quote) “agreed that children do best with multiple adults invested, 230 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,465 but two married parents are not necessary.” 231 00:14:34,465 --> 00:14:36,603 Christina Cross, a few years ago, 232 00:14:36,603 --> 00:14:40,180 in The New York Times,” had an article, “The Myth of the Two-Parent Home.” 233 00:14:40,508 --> 00:14:44,121 And even as I say those, I feel myself wanting to say, 234 00:14:44,121 --> 00:14:48,954 “Uh, yeah, we're not just all the things you just said, Melissa.” 235 00:14:48,954 --> 00:14:51,888 We’re not saying that, you know, 236 00:14:51,888 --> 00:14:54,944 the single mom is to blame for all these problems, 237 00:14:54,944 --> 00:14:56,792 You know, where's the dad? 238 00:14:56,792 --> 00:14:59,359 The dad is, you know, for any number of reasons — 239 00:14:59,359 --> 00:15:02,143 and we're going to get to talking about boys and dads and just a bit — 240 00:15:02,143 --> 00:15:05,809 But I think that just underscores those surveys for whatever they're worth. 241 00:15:05,809 --> 00:15:09,992 I imagine people getting that phone call or online, being asked that question 242 00:15:09,992 --> 00:15:12,161 and thinking, “Well, I don't want to say 243 00:15:12,161 --> 00:15:16,160 that married couples are better than anyone else. 244 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,011 Of course. Any number of people. 245 00:15:18,011 --> 00:15:21,627 And one of the myths — and I'd love for you to expound on this here — 246 00:15:21,627 --> 00:15:24,545 one of the myths you talk about several times in the book, 247 00:15:24,545 --> 00:15:26,293 is that people have the idea, 248 00:15:26,293 --> 00:15:28,711 “Well, sure, people aren't married 249 00:15:28,711 --> 00:15:32,194 and kids aren't being raised as much in married families. 250 00:15:32,194 --> 00:15:36,105 But it's just kind of European style, laissez-faire relationships. 251 00:15:36,105 --> 00:15:38,058 And it's the same thing. 252 00:15:38,058 --> 00:15:42,360 It's just people haven't gone through the formal structures of getting married.” 253 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:43,475 Is that true? 254 00:15:43,475 --> 00:15:45,220 >>[KEARNEY] Let me answer that 255 00:15:45,220 --> 00:15:49,075 and then come back to address the earlier points that you made, 256 00:15:49,075 --> 00:15:51,407 specifically about some of the reactions. 257 00:15:51,407 --> 00:15:55,359 So that is completely NOT true, which is really important 258 00:15:55,359 --> 00:16:00,009 because, again, since I'm taking an economist lens to this issue, 259 00:16:00,009 --> 00:16:04,703 what really matters in the way I describe, frame, model, 260 00:16:04,703 --> 00:16:09,141 and then empirically study marriage is the resources coming into a household. 261 00:16:09,141 --> 00:16:11,944 So if you had two parents who were together the whole time 262 00:16:11,944 --> 00:16:15,826 committed to sharing their resources, which is their income, their time, 263 00:16:15,826 --> 00:16:19,208 their energy to raising kids together throughout a kid's childhood, 264 00:16:19,208 --> 00:16:23,940 In my version (economic version) of this story, it shouldn't matter, 265 00:16:23,940 --> 00:16:26,128 but at a very practical level, 266 00:16:26,128 --> 00:16:29,260 that's NOT what unmarried parents are doing. 267 00:16:29,260 --> 00:16:33,857 40% of kids in this country are now born to unmarried parents. 268 00:16:33,857 --> 00:16:38,576 52% of kids born to moms without a four-year college degree 269 00:16:38,576 --> 00:16:40,425 are born to unmarried parents. 270 00:16:40,425 --> 00:16:44,686 70% of children born to Black moms in this country, unmarried parents. 271 00:16:44,686 --> 00:16:47,776 These parents aren't married at the time of the child's birth. 272 00:16:47,776 --> 00:16:49,552 And as a practical matter, 273 00:16:49,552 --> 00:16:53,859 very few of them will be together cohabiting, raising their kids together 274 00:16:53,859 --> 00:16:57,259 by the time this child is 5 years old, let alone 14 years old. 275 00:16:57,259 --> 00:16:59,023 This is one of the things we see in the data 276 00:16:59,023 --> 00:17:01,175 that Sarah McClanahan collected with her colleagues. 277 00:17:01,967 --> 00:17:03,961 And so, at a practical level, marriage -- 278 00:17:03,961 --> 00:17:08,810 and then, you know, there's a whole bunch of theories as to why this is true -- 279 00:17:08,810 --> 00:17:16,012 but marriage just provides an institutional framework, essentially, 280 00:17:16,012 --> 00:17:18,943 that keeps parents together in this arrangement raising their kids together. 281 00:17:18,943 --> 00:17:24,491 And so we can't be blasé about these really high number of kids 282 00:17:24,491 --> 00:17:28,220 being raised in an unmarried-parent home, being born to unmarried parents, 283 00:17:28,220 --> 00:17:31,268 because, again, just very what does that mean, practically? 284 00:17:31,268 --> 00:17:34,607 It means that most of them will grow up in a one-parent home. 285 00:17:34,607 --> 00:17:36,976 Okay, let me talk specifically 286 00:17:36,976 --> 00:17:42,252 just to respond to the reactions or critics that you raise. 287 00:17:42,252 --> 00:17:46,824 You know, 70% of adults say it's fine for kids to be raised in a single-mother home. 288 00:17:46,824 --> 00:17:50,609 Well, that could mean very many things. 289 00:17:50,609 --> 00:17:53,276 First, of course, there are lots of children 290 00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:57,152 who are raised by single moms who do phenomenally well. 291 00:17:57,152 --> 00:18:01,489 And there are plenty of single moms who have enough income 292 00:18:01,489 --> 00:18:05,722 or, you know, a village around them such that they can raise their kids 293 00:18:05,722 --> 00:18:10,118 in ways that are enriching home environments, 294 00:18:10,118 --> 00:18:11,522 and the kids can do very well. 295 00:18:11,522 --> 00:18:15,423 I'm focused on averages and large trends. 296 00:18:15,423 --> 00:18:19,639 And so we can all recognize the heroic efforts 297 00:18:19,639 --> 00:18:21,602 that some single moms go to 298 00:18:21,602 --> 00:18:25,501 to make sure their kids are just as successful as anyone else's children. 299 00:18:25,501 --> 00:18:27,276 But that doesn't mean that on average, 300 00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:32,470 two parents in a home don't have an easier time than one parent. 301 00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:35,334 And again, what we see in the data very clearly 302 00:18:35,334 --> 00:18:40,191 is that in a typical situation, two-parent homes deliver more benefits to kids 303 00:18:40,191 --> 00:18:42,524 and kids are more likely to stay out of poverty, 304 00:18:42,524 --> 00:18:44,508 graduate high school, graduate college, 305 00:18:44,508 --> 00:18:50,058 achieve these markers of, you know, just sort of basic markers of success, 306 00:18:50,058 --> 00:18:55,421 setting aside personal, you know, qualities that we want in our children. 307 00:18:55,421 --> 00:18:59,504 The Christina Cross New York Times, you know, piece 308 00:18:59,504 --> 00:19:03,635 that said the myth of the two-parent family, what she was arguing really is that— 309 00:19:03,635 --> 00:19:06,308 and she and I come to different conclusions— 310 00:19:06,308 --> 00:19:11,301 what she was arguing is that if you look at Black families, 311 00:19:11,301 --> 00:19:16,373 the benefit of marriage wouldn't be as great as for White families, 312 00:19:16,373 --> 00:19:19,306 and so she's like, “marriage doesn't solve our problems.” 313 00:19:19,306 --> 00:19:22,225 And here's how I think about this. 314 00:19:22,225 --> 00:19:25,341 And I've done extensive research on this 315 00:19:25,341 --> 00:19:29,541 and I've written academic paper, and I described this in the book. 316 00:19:29,541 --> 00:19:32,692 The way we should think about the benefits of marriage to a child 317 00:19:32,692 --> 00:19:36,484 depends on what the second parent would bring into the home. 318 00:19:36,484 --> 00:19:43,174 So if the second parent is not stably employed or has low income 319 00:19:43,174 --> 00:19:46,457 or isn't committed to the child, or in extreme situations, 320 00:19:46,457 --> 00:19:50,070 would be a harmful presence or an abusive presence, 321 00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:52,025 then there wouldn't be a benefit of marriage. 322 00:19:52,025 --> 00:19:56,958 But this doesn't mean that the decline in the two-parent home isn't a crisis 323 00:19:56,958 --> 00:19:58,983 for children and families in this country. 324 00:19:58,983 --> 00:20:03,519 It means that it's not as easy as just saying “more people should get married.” 325 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:05,640 It means we have to actually grapple with: 326 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,957 What is it that's keeping millions of parents or millions of adults who have kids together 327 00:20:10,957 --> 00:20:12,289 from getting married. 328 00:20:12,289 --> 00:20:16,274 What is it that's keeping millions of dads from being committed to their families. 329 00:20:16,274 --> 00:20:20,371 It just it makes us look at root causes of the problem, 330 00:20:20,371 --> 00:20:25,190 it doesn't mean there's not a problem or that two-parent homes aren't beneficial. 331 00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:28,740 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, and I remember looking at Cross's argument, 332 00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:33,054 and you look at yes, there are differences between Black families and White families; 333 00:20:33,054 --> 00:20:44,406 and yet the data show that just again, averages, it is better in America to be 334 00:20:44,406 --> 00:20:46,090 (I mean, if you were to predict adult outcomes) 335 00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:49,116 to be a Black child raised by two parents, 336 00:20:49,116 --> 00:20:52,292 than to be a White child raised in a one-parent home. 337 00:20:52,292 --> 00:20:54,591 So, yes, there's still differences, but— 338 00:20:54,591 --> 00:20:58,608 and marriage, of course, doesn't solve all problems. 339 00:20:58,608 --> 00:21:01,725 I don't know who would argue that marriage is going to solve all those problems. 340 00:21:01,725 --> 00:21:06,204 But on the whole, all other things, it's an advantage. 341 00:21:06,204 --> 00:21:09,424 Melissa, you write about this in the book, 342 00:21:09,424 --> 00:21:12,207 and you go through different options and theories, 343 00:21:12,207 --> 00:21:14,251 and, you know, like a good economist, 344 00:21:14,251 --> 00:21:17,522 you have to say, “Well, it could be this, and it could be that. 345 00:21:17,522 --> 00:21:18,834 We can't finally determine.” 346 00:21:18,834 --> 00:21:23,908 But where do you think, in particular, this class divide goes? 347 00:21:23,908 --> 00:21:27,784 So, you know, ten years ago in Charles Murray's book, “Coming Apart,” 348 00:21:27,784 --> 00:21:30,237 where he has, you know, fictional Fishtown in Belmont, 349 00:21:30,237 --> 00:21:32,516 and sort of, you know, in Belmont, 350 00:21:32,516 --> 00:21:37,858 the upper middle class are living one way, and in Fishtown, another way. 351 00:21:37,858 --> 00:21:41,757 And one of the ironies he says is, 352 00:21:41,757 --> 00:21:46,105 the people in this Belmont are giving their stated views of one thing. 353 00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:48,905 Like, it doesn't matter, and yet the way they're living 354 00:21:48,905 --> 00:21:52,369 shows a different kind of value system: 355 00:21:52,369 --> 00:21:58,381 that “graduate school, get married, then have your children,” 356 00:21:58,381 --> 00:22:03,635 which you know, lots of studies show, you do those things in that order. 357 00:22:03,635 --> 00:22:10,755 And the chances of you being in poverty in this country are very small. 358 00:22:10,755 --> 00:22:16,131 So how, where did the very stark division— 359 00:22:16,131 --> 00:22:17,415 Because it wasn't like this you show. 360 00:22:17,415 --> 00:22:20,336 I mean, it wasn't like this in 1960 that there was such a division 361 00:22:20,336 --> 00:22:23,956 between, you know, “the Haves” and “the Have Nots” 362 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:27,703 getting even wider apart on their very marital formation. 363 00:22:27,703 --> 00:22:29,038 How did we get here? 364 00:22:29,038 --> 00:22:34,431 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah, so this has really-- this class gap in family structure 365 00:22:34,431 --> 00:22:39,801 and the share of kids being raised in two-parent homes 366 00:22:39,801 --> 00:22:40,670 has emerged over the past 40 years. 367 00:22:40,670 --> 00:22:42,984 And frankly, this is why anybody who professes to be 368 00:22:42,984 --> 00:22:46,972 concerned about income inequality or the erosion of social mobility 369 00:22:46,972 --> 00:22:49,037 needs to contend with this 370 00:22:49,037 --> 00:22:54,804 because two-parent homes are very protective of children, 371 00:22:54,804 --> 00:22:56,905 and they really increase, you know, 372 00:22:56,905 --> 00:23:00,738 kids’ likelihood of hitting all of these markers of success. 373 00:23:00,738 --> 00:23:01,870 And so, what happened? 374 00:23:01,870 --> 00:23:05,373 Well, here's the broad stroke of the story I tell 375 00:23:05,373 --> 00:23:10,633 based on my reading of all the data and relevant evidence, 376 00:23:10,633 --> 00:23:13,073 which is, we had a social cultural revolution in the ‘60s and ‘70s, 377 00:23:13,073 --> 00:23:17,953 changed our expectations for marriage, social norms around gender roles. 378 00:23:17,953 --> 00:23:23,603 It eroded, a bit, the social convention 379 00:23:23,603 --> 00:23:23,967 of needing to be married to have kids together, okay? 380 00:23:23,967 --> 00:23:26,369 And what we saw in the ‘60s and ‘70s 381 00:23:26,369 --> 00:23:29,067 was a reduction in marriage sort of across the board, 382 00:23:29,067 --> 00:23:32,586 even proportion across adults of different education levels. 383 00:23:32,586 --> 00:23:37,006 In the ‘80s and ‘90s, things diverged quite starkly 384 00:23:37,006 --> 00:23:44,188 such that the decline in marriage stalled, stopped declining among adults, 385 00:23:44,188 --> 00:23:46,852 went men and women with a four-year college degree. 386 00:23:46,852 --> 00:23:50,387 So their rates of marriage have barely declined in 40 years, 387 00:23:50,387 --> 00:23:56,098 and we see that the share of kids being raised in a married-parent home, 388 00:23:56,098 --> 00:23:58,507 if they're born to a mom with a four-year college degree, 389 00:23:58,507 --> 00:24:05,866 that's decreased over this 40-year period by only six percentage points, from 90% to 84%. 390 00:24:05,866 --> 00:24:07,154 It's a very small decrease 391 00:24:07,154 --> 00:24:11,031 when you realize how much bigger and more diverse that group is. 392 00:24:11,031 --> 00:24:13,637 So now about 30% of moms have a four-year college degree 393 00:24:13,637 --> 00:24:21,452 as compared to only about 11%, 394 00:24:21,452 --> 00:24:23,099 and yet still, raising your kids in a married-parent home 395 00:24:23,099 --> 00:24:23,747 is holding steady among that class. 396 00:24:23,747 --> 00:24:24,669 But in the ‘80s and ‘90s, 397 00:24:24,669 --> 00:24:26,854 we saw that the share of kids being raised in a married parent home, 398 00:24:26,854 --> 00:24:30,756 not just for the most educationally disadvantaged adults 399 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:32,237 without a high school degree, 400 00:24:32,237 --> 00:24:36,338 but really interestingly, and I think underappreciated in the middle. 401 00:24:36,338 --> 00:24:40,113 So moms with a high school degree or some college, 402 00:24:40,113 --> 00:24:43,987 we might have considered them sort of the middle class, right? 403 00:24:43,987 --> 00:24:48,389 The likelihood that their kids are being raised in a married-parent home 404 00:24:48,389 --> 00:24:51,979 fell from 83% to 60%. 405 00:24:51,979 --> 00:24:54,579 That is a massive drop in 40 years. 406 00:24:54,579 --> 00:24:56,939 So now, where are we in 2020? 407 00:24:56,939 --> 00:25:02,994 You know, we've got this really large, very obvious class divergence. 408 00:25:02,994 --> 00:25:04,828 I think part of this is driven 409 00:25:04,828 --> 00:25:11,605 by the economic challenges facing non–college-educated men in particular, 410 00:25:11,605 --> 00:25:13,559 over the ‘80s, ‘90s and early 2000s. 411 00:25:13,559 --> 00:25:14,810 We have a lot of research from economics 412 00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:17,680 showing that secular global changes 413 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,640 think, you know, increased import competition from abroad; 414 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,929 think, the adoption of technologies and industrial robots 415 00:25:26,929 --> 00:25:30,810 that pushed-- sort of both of those trends 416 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:36,021 pushed non–college-educated men out of well-paying middle-class jobs, 417 00:25:36,021 --> 00:25:38,612 either out of the workforce or into lower paying jobs; 418 00:25:38,612 --> 00:25:43,259 think, the erosion of unions and other sort of wage-supporting institutions. 419 00:25:43,259 --> 00:25:46,877 Basically, all of these trends were unkind to non–college-educated workers, 420 00:25:46,877 --> 00:25:48,461 which, in an economic sense, 421 00:25:48,461 --> 00:25:58,235 made them less attractive or necessary as marriage partners to the extent 422 00:25:58,235 --> 00:26:00,478 that one of the things husbands do is bring financial resources to a home. 423 00:26:00,478 --> 00:26:03,114 And so that's, I think, part of the story. 424 00:26:03,114 --> 00:26:07,116 But then you've got this, you know, cyclical effect 425 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:12,702 where the economics make the institution of marriage less attractive or necessary 426 00:26:12,702 --> 00:26:16,132 because women outside the college-educated class 427 00:26:16,132 --> 00:26:17,699 are doing better compared to men, right? 428 00:26:17,699 --> 00:26:20,829 So they're more likely to be able to do it on their own, 429 00:26:20,829 --> 00:26:23,185 and he's less likely to be a stable provider. 430 00:26:23,185 --> 00:26:26,584 So you've got this confluence events, and that changes the social norm 431 00:26:26,584 --> 00:26:28,419 because now, more and more people in your community, 432 00:26:28,419 --> 00:26:32,302 having and raising their kids outside a two-parent home, 433 00:26:32,302 --> 00:26:36,278 and then these things amplify each other. 434 00:26:36,278 --> 00:26:37,850 So you've got economics and social changes amplifying each other. 435 00:26:37,850 --> 00:26:41,783 And that's why this is a cycle that really needs to be broken. 436 00:26:41,783 --> 00:26:44,634 >>[DEYOUNG] So I want to come back to those numbers in just a second. 437 00:26:44,634 --> 00:26:50,153 I need to just mention our irst sponsor, Crossway Books. 438 00:26:50,153 --> 00:26:52,352 Thank you for sponsoring Life & Books & Everything. 439 00:26:52,352 --> 00:26:57,520 And today, I want to mention their New Testament theology series. 440 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,619 Here's one of the volumes [singsong as he shows the book] 441 00:27:00,619 --> 00:27:03,353 on 2nd Corinthians by Dane Ortlund. 442 00:27:03,353 --> 00:27:07,182 So thank you to Crossway for sponsoring LBE 443 00:27:07,182 --> 00:27:09,786 and check out their good books and that new series. 444 00:27:09,786 --> 00:27:11,821 Uh, Melissa, I want to just underscore, 445 00:27:11,821 --> 00:27:16,153 you have this nice chart, these numbers you just gave here on the book. 446 00:27:16,153 --> 00:27:20,613 So just to say, because this is really important, and you just said this. 447 00:27:20,613 --> 00:27:25,153 So four-year college. This is in 1980. 448 00:27:25,153 --> 00:27:30,420 So 90% of children living with married parents, 449 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:35,619 high school or college in 1980: 83%; less than high school: 80%. 450 00:27:35,619 --> 00:27:41,067 So that's a really tight— Back in 1980, you know, 80-90%. 451 00:27:41,067 --> 00:27:43,703 So whether you had high school, some high school, college, 452 00:27:43,703 --> 00:27:45,604 you're roughly the same. 453 00:27:45,604 --> 00:27:48,419 In statistical terms, it's pretty close. 454 00:27:48,419 --> 00:27:52,663 And then, I mean, you just show how four-year college declines a little bit. 455 00:27:52,663 --> 00:27:58,029 But these other 83[%] to 60[%], 456 00:27:58,029 --> 00:28:02,686 from 80% to 57% is a major decline among those less educated. 457 00:28:02,686 --> 00:28:05,585 And you've talked about some of the reasons why that may be 458 00:28:05,585 --> 00:28:11,684 and about the “marriageable man” thesis. 459 00:28:11,684 --> 00:28:13,268 And so you hit on that there. 460 00:28:13,268 --> 00:28:17,983 I want to ask the question. So maybe it's twofold. 461 00:28:17,983 --> 00:28:23,783 The women -- because almost all of these single-parent households 462 00:28:23,783 --> 00:28:27,645 are headed by women -- Is it in the case 463 00:28:27,645 --> 00:28:34,752 that they're looking to get married and they just can't find the right guy? 464 00:28:34,752 --> 00:28:38,951 Or is it the case that the norms are such 465 00:28:38,951 --> 00:28:42,699 that marriage just isn't something that they think of. 466 00:28:42,699 --> 00:28:46,283 And then, you know, follow up is, is there anything we can do about that? 467 00:28:46,283 --> 00:28:47,985 I'm reminded of a quip… 468 00:28:47,985 --> 00:28:52,099 I wrote an article last year for "First Things," 469 00:28:52,099 --> 00:28:55,370 which is a Catholic journal about declining fertility rates, 470 00:28:55,370 --> 00:28:58,684 and I looked at all of the things they've tried to do in Japan and other places 471 00:28:58,684 --> 00:29:01,832 which have had almost no effect on increasing fertility, 472 00:29:01,832 --> 00:29:03,833 and somebody had this line, you know, 473 00:29:03,833 --> 00:29:09,049 “Government programs can help you maybe encourage you to have the kids you want, 474 00:29:09,049 --> 00:29:12,244 but they won't convince you to have the kids you don't want.” 475 00:29:12,244 --> 00:29:16,334 And it’s maybe sort of the same with marriage. 476 00:29:16,334 --> 00:29:17,652 There are some policy things. 477 00:29:17,652 --> 00:29:20,384 If you want to get married, they can help it. 478 00:29:20,384 --> 00:29:25,419 But if you're not looking for that, what can we do? 479 00:29:25,419 --> 00:29:29,351 >>[KEARNEY] This is a really important point, 480 00:29:29,351 --> 00:29:32,448 which is that there does not seem to be evidence 481 00:29:32,448 --> 00:29:39,217 that people in the U.S. have whole-scale rejected the institution of marriage. 482 00:29:39,217 --> 00:29:40,164 I know there are some groups 483 00:29:40,164 --> 00:29:42,902 that essentially say marriage is a patriarchal institution, 484 00:29:42,902 --> 00:29:46,851 and it's not compatible with modern day feminism. 485 00:29:46,851 --> 00:29:48,927 And so, of course, you're going to have a reduction in marriage. 486 00:29:48,927 --> 00:29:51,301 And let me just say before I go further on this 487 00:29:51,301 --> 00:29:55,517 that let's keep coming back to the fact that college-educated women, 488 00:29:55,517 --> 00:30:01,253 the most economically successful women perhaps in the history of, like, the world. 489 00:30:01,253 --> 00:30:08,398 We're still getting married and raising our kids in married- parent homes. 490 00:30:08,398 --> 00:30:09,717 So I reject the proposition that marriage is inherently at odds 491 00:30:09,717 --> 00:30:16,668 with any feminist view of women's economic participation or success. 492 00:30:16,668 --> 00:30:18,617 So then it's the question of: 493 00:30:18,617 --> 00:30:24,736 “Well, why has marriage fallen out of favor outside the college-educated class?” 494 00:30:24,736 --> 00:30:28,817 And when you look at the ethnographic evidence 495 00:30:28,817 --> 00:30:33,214 and the qualitative surveys of low-income couples, 496 00:30:33,214 --> 00:30:35,343 unmarried couples who avail themselves 497 00:30:35,343 --> 00:30:37,368 of some of the government programs 498 00:30:37,368 --> 00:30:40,778 or government-funded programs, their community-offered programs 499 00:30:40,778 --> 00:30:44,526 that work with unmarried parents trying to strengthen families, 500 00:30:44,526 --> 00:30:48,847 what you see in those interviews and those qualitative studies 501 00:30:48,847 --> 00:30:52,068 is that a lot of these couples say they want to be together. 502 00:30:52,068 --> 00:30:55,252 And we saw this in the “Fragile Family” survey, too, right? 503 00:30:55,252 --> 00:30:57,068 They say they want to be together, they plan to be together. 504 00:30:57,068 --> 00:31:01,493 And then for a whole variety of reasons, they can't make that work. 505 00:31:01,493 --> 00:31:07,233 This too should really affect our willingness to grapple with this as an equity issue. 506 00:31:07,233 --> 00:31:11,752 If you've got high income couples, highly educated couples 507 00:31:11,752 --> 00:31:13,731 who are managing to achieve 508 00:31:13,731 --> 00:31:18,368 and make this very advantageous structure work for them, 509 00:31:18,368 --> 00:31:19,934 shouldn't we want more people 510 00:31:19,934 --> 00:31:23,427 who say they WANT to be able to have a two-parent home 511 00:31:23,427 --> 00:31:25,215 and a happy, healthy marriage, 512 00:31:25,215 --> 00:31:26,760 shouldn't we help them achieve it, 513 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,072 even if they can't pay for high-priced marriage counseling or whatever? 514 00:31:31,072 --> 00:31:33,501 What do you see? There are real barriers? 515 00:31:33,501 --> 00:31:35,903 There's economic instability 516 00:31:35,903 --> 00:31:39,665 that makes someone either less willing to commit to taking care of a family 517 00:31:39,665 --> 00:31:42,515 or makes, you know, the mother of his children 518 00:31:42,515 --> 00:31:46,034 less likely to accept him as a resident dad. 519 00:31:46,034 --> 00:31:46,900 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 520 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:47,150 >>[KEARNEY] You see substance abuse, you see mental health challenges. 521 00:31:47,150 --> 00:31:54,623 You see a lot of these adults grew up in homes 522 00:31:54,623 --> 00:31:58,291 that weren't characterized by stable, healthy marriages, 523 00:31:58,291 --> 00:32:02,231 growing up in communities where their friends and cousins and other role models 524 00:32:02,231 --> 00:32:04,266 are not raising their kids in this way. 525 00:32:04,266 --> 00:32:09,140 So here's an opportunity for community groups and for public funding 526 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:12,441 and philanthropic groups and for church groups to say: 527 00:32:12,441 --> 00:32:15,278 “What can we do to help strengthen families 528 00:32:15,278 --> 00:32:18,131 to meet them where they are and help make them stronger?” 529 00:32:18,131 --> 00:32:23,214 At the same time, creating a social convention and expectation 530 00:32:23,214 --> 00:32:26,715 among children being raised and teenagers now 531 00:32:26,715 --> 00:32:30,042 that this is something to strive for. 532 00:32:30,042 --> 00:32:34,129 This will make your household more economically viable. 533 00:32:34,129 --> 00:32:36,620 It will confer benefits to your children. 534 00:32:36,620 --> 00:32:39,965 So it's both meeting families where they are now. 535 00:32:39,965 --> 00:32:43,085 But I think, setting our sights on: 536 00:32:43,085 --> 00:32:46,572 “What do we want to accomplish going forward and how do we get there? 537 00:32:46,572 --> 00:32:49,237 >>[DEYOUNG] That's great. And really helpful. 538 00:32:49,237 --> 00:32:55,188 You have a great chapter on boys and dads, and I'm going to ask you a question, 539 00:32:55,188 --> 00:33:00,456 not so much as an economist (so you know, if you want to answer it or not) 540 00:33:00,456 --> 00:33:03,364 but as a teacher and as a professor, 541 00:33:03,364 --> 00:33:06,273 and maybe the sort of students that are coming to University of Maryland 542 00:33:06,273 --> 00:33:11,354 are so self-selecting of such a high elite caliber that you wouldn't see this. 543 00:33:11,578 --> 00:33:14,823 But I just wonder in your years of teaching, 544 00:33:14,823 --> 00:33:21,609 there's lots of social science research on the ways that boys are falling behind. 545 00:33:21,609 --> 00:33:28,509 And we can even say anecdotally, young men are drawn to online influencers, 546 00:33:28,509 --> 00:33:33,743 some of whom you are sort of helpful, some of whom are really unhelpful. 547 00:33:33,743 --> 00:33:36,656 I just wonder, have you sensed something? 548 00:33:36,656 --> 00:33:39,325 I mean, you work with young people of different ages. 549 00:33:39,325 --> 00:33:42,241 Have you sensed in, you know, the last generation 550 00:33:42,241 --> 00:33:46,227 that there are more challenges or more anxiety, despondency? 551 00:33:46,227 --> 00:33:52,374 What are you, sort of on the ground, sense? And in particular, about boys and men? 552 00:33:52,374 --> 00:34:02,225 >>[KEARNEY] I think the single biggest thing that gets me down as a professor, 553 00:34:02,225 --> 00:34:10,438 and, you know, I've been working with the young adults now for almost 20 years. 554 00:34:10,438 --> 00:34:17,360 There really is, you just see it, just a widespread anxiety among them 555 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,810 (men and women alike) 556 00:34:18,810 --> 00:34:25,410 that I just I don't I don't think-- I certainly didn't notice it 20 years ago. 557 00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:29,710 Now, I'm very aware of the fact that I've been a parent. 558 00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:32,094 And so now I see these 20-year-olds. 559 00:34:32,094 --> 00:34:34,719 Is like closer and closer to my own children. 560 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,573 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. Uh-huh. 561 00:34:37,573 --> 00:34:39,191 >>[KEARNEY] But the amount of kids, I mean, KIDS, right? They're young adults. 562 00:34:39,191 --> 00:34:41,576 They’re like 18 to 22 who come to my office. 563 00:34:41,576 --> 00:34:48,461 Often--Like you know, young men, too, I'll call them in, and I'll say, 564 00:34:48,461 --> 00:34:50,509 “What happened? happened on the test,” right? 565 00:34:50,509 --> 00:34:53,393 “Like, what happened? Do you come to class? Like, what?” 566 00:34:53,393 --> 00:34:56,360 And they're big guys, and they have their hoodie up, 567 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:57,825 and they look like they don't care. 568 00:34:57,825 --> 00:34:59,052 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. 569 00:34:59,052 --> 00:35:01,809 >>[KEARNEY] And then they'll start crying. 570 00:35:01,809 --> 00:35:05,858 And they'll be like-- You know, I'm not I'm not making this up, right? 571 00:35:05,858 --> 00:35:07,735 And all of these anecdotes are part of the reason 572 00:35:07,735 --> 00:35:10,906 why I felt so like I had to write this book, 573 00:35:10,906 --> 00:35:12,559 even though I don't tell these anecdotes in the book. 574 00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:14,993 They'll be like, you know, “My parents just announced they're getting divorced. 575 00:35:14,993 --> 00:35:17,569 I think they thought it was okay because we're at college now, 576 00:35:17,569 --> 00:35:20,117 but I'm having a tough semester.” 577 00:35:20,117 --> 00:35:24,235 Or you know, “My grandma raised me, and it was just me and my grandma 578 00:35:24,235 --> 00:35:26,519 and my grandma died, and I'm having a tough semester.” 579 00:35:26,519 --> 00:35:31,172 Or “I can't figure out what I'm going to do with the rest of my life, 580 00:35:31,172 --> 00:35:32,106 and I'm really stressed 581 00:35:32,106 --> 00:35:34,856 and I'm supposed to be interviewing for jobs, and I just don't know.” 582 00:35:34,856 --> 00:35:38,266 And just the amount of sadness and anxiety among young people 583 00:35:38,266 --> 00:35:40,774 who have their whole lives ahead of them. 584 00:35:40,774 --> 00:35:41,522 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. 585 00:35:41,522 --> 00:35:43,496 >>[KEARNEY] Right? I think just should be filled with energy. 586 00:35:43,496 --> 00:35:46,323 And I don't want to overtell this story 587 00:35:46,323 --> 00:35:51,242 because there is something that's also really energizing about being among young people. 588 00:35:51,555 --> 00:35:55,357 But I just, I worry about them. I do. 589 00:35:55,419 --> 00:35:59,770 I worry about them, and I wish as adults, we could do more to make them feel 590 00:35:59,770 --> 00:36:04,487 comfortable and confident and safe and secure, and, like, it's okay. 591 00:36:04,487 --> 00:36:09,570 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Do you think boys in particular are wondering-- 592 00:36:09,570 --> 00:36:10,820 Well, I suppose, men and women, 593 00:36:10,820 --> 00:36:16,787 but you know, you talk about the incredible importance of dads. 594 00:36:16,787 --> 00:36:22,703 And, you know, that wonderful story about the dad (was it in Louisiana?) 595 00:36:22,703 --> 00:36:26,570 who showed up at school, and gang participation plummeted. 596 00:36:26,570 --> 00:36:32,703 And even some of the metrics you give with— It even seems that boys in the home 597 00:36:32,703 --> 00:36:36,920 are more affected by the lack of a father than girls are. 598 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:42,521 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I mean, again, this comes out of really rigorous econometric studies. 599 00:36:42,521 --> 00:36:45,454 We see that the gender gap favoring girls 600 00:36:45,454 --> 00:36:48,004 (meaning girls are now less likely to get in trouble at school; 601 00:36:48,004 --> 00:36:50,053 they've always been, but that gap has widened; 602 00:36:50,053 --> 00:36:53,037 they're more likely to graduate high school. they're more likely to go to college). 603 00:36:53,037 --> 00:36:56,453 Again, girls are more likely to hit all these markers of success. 604 00:36:57,703 --> 00:37:01,453 This has been happening over the same decade that we've had a tremendous rise 605 00:37:01,453 --> 00:37:06,318 in the share of kids growing up without dads in their home. 606 00:37:06,318 --> 00:37:09,237 And researchers, economists have worked very hard 607 00:37:09,237 --> 00:37:15,385 to establish a causal link here showing that that gender gap that favors girls 608 00:37:15,385 --> 00:37:20,452 is wider among kids coming from mother- only homes than two-parent homes. 609 00:37:20,452 --> 00:37:23,919 And then economists have gone further and looked at the mechanisms 610 00:37:23,919 --> 00:37:28,852 and shown that the absence of additional parental inputs, 611 00:37:28,852 --> 00:37:33,801 meaning time, nurturing parenting that kids from single-parent homes get. 612 00:37:33,902 --> 00:37:37,568 Again, not because single moms aren't great parents. 613 00:37:37,568 --> 00:37:40,769 It's because they don't have a second parent in the house to help, right? 614 00:37:40,769 --> 00:37:43,568 >>[DEYOUNG] My wife is always saying, “I don't know how I would do this.” 615 00:37:43,568 --> 00:37:45,984 I certainly don't know how I would do it. 616 00:37:45,984 --> 00:37:48,985 >>[KEARNEY] So this isn't to impugn single moms. 617 00:37:48,985 --> 00:37:52,402 Again, it's to say that there are more parenting resources in two-parent homes, 618 00:37:52,402 --> 00:37:56,503 and we see that lower level of parenting inputs and nurturing parenthood 619 00:37:56,503 --> 00:38:01,986 has a large, larger effect on the behaviors and outcomes of boys. 620 00:38:01,986 --> 00:38:06,836 I want to be careful because I don't think we should erroneously conclude from that 621 00:38:06,836 --> 00:38:08,602 that girls aren't necessarily struggling. 622 00:38:08,602 --> 00:38:11,301 But girls might be struggling in different ways. 623 00:38:11,301 --> 00:38:15,969 Whereas boys, again, we know on average are more likely to express their struggles 624 00:38:15,969 --> 00:38:19,636 by acting out in ways that are going to get them suspended, in trouble with the law, 625 00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:24,886 all sorts of things that could really impede their educational and economic— 626 00:38:24,886 --> 00:38:27,554 >>[DEYOUNG] They have outward aggressive, noticeable, public-- 627 00:38:27,554 --> 00:38:29,304 >>[KEARNEY] Again, on average, right? 628 00:38:29,304 --> 00:38:30,455 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh huh. 629 00:38:30,455 --> 00:38:31,237 >>[KEARNEY] And so that's bad for them. 630 00:38:31,237 --> 00:38:35,021 This, too, is why this is SO important to intervene, 631 00:38:35,351 --> 00:38:38,519 like, from all angles and break this 632 00:38:38,519 --> 00:38:41,285 because let's get back to why we think there's a reduction 633 00:38:41,285 --> 00:38:44,002 in marriage outside the college-educated class. 634 00:38:44,312 --> 00:38:45,777 Men are either viewing themselves 635 00:38:45,777 --> 00:38:50,061 as less likely to be stable, good providers for family. 636 00:38:50,061 --> 00:38:51,779 Women are less likely to view them that way. 637 00:38:51,779 --> 00:38:54,762 Then you have millions of boys being raised without dads in their house. 638 00:38:54,762 --> 00:38:57,078 That actually makes them less likely 639 00:38:57,078 --> 00:38:59,995 to be in a position to be, you know, 640 00:38:59,995 --> 00:39:03,611 stably employed, emotionally stable, supportive husbands and fathers. 641 00:39:03,611 --> 00:39:06,647 And this gets back to something else you brought up with. 642 00:39:06,647 --> 00:39:10,381 Well, the elite class is raising their kids in this way. 643 00:39:10,381 --> 00:39:17,247 And frankly, it's I mean, not only does it reject the overwhelming evidence and data 644 00:39:17,247 --> 00:39:20,197 showing that kids benefit from having dads in their homes, 645 00:39:20,197 --> 00:39:24,277 but it's extraordinarily elitist and obnoxious, quite frankly, to say: 646 00:39:24,277 --> 00:39:29,711 “No, my kid benefits from having me in the home because I'm a great guy 647 00:39:29,711 --> 00:39:31,743 and I can read to them and really equip them.” 648 00:39:31,743 --> 00:39:37,110 But do we really expect the, you know, 40% of kids who are born to less-educated dads 649 00:39:37,110 --> 00:39:39,560 to benefit from their fathers? 650 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,560 Like, “Let's give up on those guys 651 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,777 and just assume a government program is going to make up for them”? 652 00:39:45,777 --> 00:39:49,976 And I just I refuse to resign ourselves to that view of society. 653 00:39:49,976 --> 00:39:51,663 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way, 654 00:39:51,663 --> 00:39:55,359 but there is a level of self-aggrandizement. 655 00:39:55,359 --> 00:39:56,761 “Of course, I'M valuable. 656 00:39:56,761 --> 00:40:00,393 I wouldn't want MY kids to be without, because I'M a very special parent.” 657 00:40:00,585 --> 00:40:05,186 Well, we're all probably all probably capable of being better parents than we think, 658 00:40:05,186 --> 00:40:08,401 and we're probably less special than we think at the same time. 659 00:40:08,401 --> 00:40:12,218 >>[KEARNEY] Kevin, this is analogous to the conversation about college. 660 00:40:12,218 --> 00:40:16,918 And we know that people with a college degree do better in the labor market. 661 00:40:16,918 --> 00:40:22,235 And there's a push to try and get more people through college, right? 662 00:40:22,235 --> 00:40:25,635 We have lots of policy interventions aimed at doing that. 663 00:40:25,635 --> 00:40:29,068 But there's a group of people that says, “Well, not everybody needs college.” 664 00:40:29,068 --> 00:40:31,418 And the critics of that view always say: 665 00:40:31,418 --> 00:40:33,768 “But ask them if they're sending THEIR kid to college.” 666 00:40:34,212 --> 00:40:34,895 Right? 667 00:40:34,895 --> 00:40:35,578 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yes. 668 00:40:35,578 --> 00:40:36,429 >>[KEARNEY] It’s a similar thing. 669 00:40:36,429 --> 00:40:40,195 Like, “Well, YOU don't need two parents, and YOUR kid doesn't go to college. 670 00:40:40,195 --> 00:40:44,341 But by the way, I'M going to shower two parents’ worth of resources on MY kid 671 00:40:44,341 --> 00:40:45,841 and make sure THEY go to a four-year college.” 672 00:40:46,181 --> 00:40:49,880 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, I wonder-- I would love to-- I mean, if you're willing, 673 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,331 how does this affect how you are as a mom? 674 00:40:55,331 --> 00:40:58,731 If your kids are anything like my kids, they are not going to read your book. 675 00:40:58,731 --> 00:40:59,697 >>[KEARNEY laughs] 676 00:40:59,697 --> 00:41:01,780 >>[DEYOUNG] Maybe your kids are really high over achievers, 677 00:41:01,780 --> 00:41:05,464 But I've written some stuff, and I try to gift it. 678 00:41:05,464 --> 00:41:07,377 “No, I'm not interested in it.” 679 00:41:07,377 --> 00:41:12,394 But this is informing and is shaped by and probably downstream in some ways 680 00:41:12,394 --> 00:41:13,877 from your own parenting. 681 00:41:13,877 --> 00:41:15,477 What sort of messages, 682 00:41:15,477 --> 00:41:20,877 given the expertise you have in this area, are you trying to give to your own kids? 683 00:41:20,877 --> 00:41:27,727 >>[KEARNEY] To be overt, I am very aware of the fact that my kids are growing up, 684 00:41:27,727 --> 00:41:29,878 not only in a two-parent household themselves, 685 00:41:29,878 --> 00:41:34,044 but surrounded by people who are being raised in two-parent household-- 686 00:41:34,044 --> 00:41:34,944 >>[DEYOUNG] Which is huge. 687 00:41:34,944 --> 00:41:40,145 >>KEARNEY] because that's what it looks like in, you know, sort of well-off community, 688 00:41:40,145 --> 00:41:41,461 which is where we live. 689 00:41:41,461 --> 00:41:44,462 I mean, I'm very open about the fact 690 00:41:44,462 --> 00:41:48,696 that I recognize my kids are being raised in a very privileged setting. 691 00:41:48,696 --> 00:41:54,180 And so it's you know, kids absorb what they see around them. 692 00:41:54,180 --> 00:41:59,313 And again, we know this from evidence, even though it also is incredibly intuitive 693 00:41:59,313 --> 00:42:03,246 that kids’ world view is shaped by what they experience. 694 00:42:03,246 --> 00:42:09,863 And so I mean, I probably should talk about it more explicitly, let's say, with my kids, 695 00:42:09,863 --> 00:42:14,581 but I don't really worry that my daughters are thinking 696 00:42:14,581 --> 00:42:17,879 that maybe they would become young unmarried mothers. 697 00:42:17,879 --> 00:42:22,948 That's-- I mean, I'm not foolish to think that things don't happen. 698 00:42:22,948 --> 00:42:24,680 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, for sure. 699 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,778 >[KEARNEY] But that's not really something 700 00:42:26,778 --> 00:42:36,094 they observe very often in the people around them that they're being raised with, right? 701 00:42:36,094 --> 00:42:38,111 And so they just sort of, by default, expect that they're going to go to college. 702 00:42:38,111 --> 00:42:40,695 And also, you know, interesting for me as a mom, 703 00:42:40,695 --> 00:42:46,545 they see me and my sisters all working and having careers. 704 00:42:46,545 --> 00:42:49,795 And I assume that that affects the way they think of it. 705 00:42:49,795 --> 00:42:52,145 Now, my daughters also think I work too much, and they don't want to work as much… 706 00:42:52,145 --> 00:42:54,545 >>[DEYOUNG chuckles] 707 00:42:54,545 --> 00:42:56,697 >[KEARNEY] …which is also fair, right? Like they’re definitely-- 708 00:42:56,697 --> 00:43:02,429 But that was something actually, I grew up in a different generation than my mom, 709 00:43:02,429 --> 00:43:04,963 where I assumed I was going to work and have a career, 710 00:43:04,963 --> 00:43:09,227 but then, thinking of my own mom, 711 00:43:09,227 --> 00:43:11,328 but I also assumed I was going to have kids and be a really involved mom 712 00:43:11,328 --> 00:43:12,128 and there was some conflict there. 713 00:43:12,128 --> 00:43:13,095 So I think about that a lot, you know, 714 00:43:13,095 --> 00:43:20,161 how our kids see us and our communities affect what the aspirations… 715 00:43:20,161 --> 00:43:21,912 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Absolutely. 716 00:43:21,912 --> 00:43:22,929 >>[KEARNEY] …you know, they have for themselves. 717 00:43:22,929 --> 00:43:24,995 >>[DEYOUNG] So, maybe that's a good transition 718 00:43:24,995 --> 00:43:27,478 to sort of a last line of questioning. 719 00:43:27,478 --> 00:43:33,677 I do want to— Let's see. I’ll mention one other sponsor, Desiring God, new book: 720 00:43:33,677 --> 00:43:37,960 “Foundations for Lifelong Learning, Education, and Serious Joy” by John Piper, 721 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,528 available next week when this is recorded. 722 00:43:41,528 --> 00:43:45,564 So check that out. Always great to see what John is writing there 723 00:43:45,564 --> 00:43:47,428 about education and serious joy. 724 00:43:47,428 --> 00:43:48,995 Thank you to Desiring God. 725 00:43:48,995 --> 00:43:54,929 That's a great transition because you used a phrase a number of times in the book, 726 00:43:54,929 --> 00:43:57,713 and this is really what you're talking about, 727 00:43:57,713 --> 00:44:03,179 “social norms” because there are lots of things as an economist, 728 00:44:03,179 --> 00:44:07,460 you think about different policies, and those things do matter. 729 00:44:07,460 --> 00:44:09,876 They're not irrelevant. They can nudge people. 730 00:44:09,876 --> 00:44:15,160 They can make certain decisions more or less likely or palatable. 731 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,793 But then you have this big bucket of, well, social norms. 732 00:44:19,918 --> 00:44:22,702 One of the things I underlined throughout the book 733 00:44:22,702 --> 00:44:27,187 that you would often mention as a kind of aside, you'd say, 734 00:44:27,187 --> 00:44:31,270 “Well, Asian families are the exception to this.” 735 00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:33,636 And I couldn't help but say, 736 00:44:33,636 --> 00:44:36,603 “Well, there are some very strong social norms, 737 00:44:36,603 --> 00:44:40,335 that's not just a stereotype.” 738 00:44:40,335 --> 00:44:42,336 I mean, there's data to support that. 739 00:44:42,336 --> 00:44:47,235 Very strong social norms about marriage, about education, about all these things. 740 00:44:47,235 --> 00:44:55,033 So is there a possibility to affect social norms? How do we go about it? 741 00:44:55,033 --> 00:45:01,501 Because it seems like the biggest thing— 742 00:45:01,501 --> 00:45:02,850 We can do lots of things around the edges to try to help push people 743 00:45:02,850 --> 00:45:07,568 in the right direction for the well-being of society and their families and kids. 744 00:45:07,568 --> 00:45:10,151 And yet, social norms are very— 745 00:45:10,151 --> 00:45:15,770 There's no program to change a community’s social norms. 746 00:45:15,770 --> 00:45:24,804 >>[KEARNEY] This is why this is a hard issue for like economists and policy wonks 747 00:45:24,804 --> 00:45:26,219 Because, like you said, we could do all sorts of tinkering around the edges. 748 00:45:26,219 --> 00:45:29,335 I can propose (and I have proposed) changes to the tax code 749 00:45:29,335 --> 00:45:33,219 that would be less punishing, frankly, of marriage. 750 00:45:33,219 --> 00:45:39,852 There are definitely tinkering policy things— 751 00:45:39,852 --> 00:45:40,668 >>[DEYOUNG] If you get more tax breaks for having kids. 752 00:45:40,668 --> 00:45:41,936 I have nine kids, so I welcome as many as you can get. [chuckles] 753 00:45:41,936 --> 00:45:44,054 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I'm all for an expanded child tax credit. 754 00:45:44,054 --> 00:45:45,936 I'm all for a child allowance. 755 00:45:45,936 --> 00:45:49,685 I'm certainly for what I've referred to as a secondary earner tax deduction 756 00:45:49,685 --> 00:45:55,022 so that we don't penalize married couples or two workers when they get married. 757 00:45:55,022 --> 00:45:57,942 We have all sorts of ways we could tinker around the edges, 758 00:45:57,942 --> 00:45:59,836 and I think those will, you know, 759 00:45:59,836 --> 00:46:02,570 like you said, nudge some people and have incremental effects. 760 00:46:02,570 --> 00:46:05,040 But really turning this around is going to require a change in social conventions, 761 00:46:06,882 --> 00:46:11,032 and now you're moving further and further away from the economist policy tool kit. 762 00:46:11,032 --> 00:46:13,448 But again, you know, some critics are like: 763 00:46:13,448 --> 00:46:15,781 “Oh, she tells us this big problem and then there's no real solutions.” 764 00:46:15,781 --> 00:46:19,198 But in some sense, one of the things I'm trying to accomplish with this book is, 765 00:46:19,198 --> 00:46:21,248 “Here, I know there's a problem… 766 00:46:21,248 --> 00:46:22,432 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 767 00:46:22,432 --> 00:46:26,498 >>[KEARNEY] …Now, all of you who do things more than just tinker with the tax code, 768 00:46:26,498 --> 00:46:28,914 let's address this together.” This is-- 769 00:46:28,914 --> 00:46:32,697 >>[DEYOUNG] This is pastors and communities and other, yeah-- 770 00:46:32,697 --> 00:46:37,265 >>[KEARNEY] There are things we could do. 771 00:46:37,265 --> 00:46:38,381 Now, that's on the one hand. 772 00:46:38,381 --> 00:46:40,165 On the other hand, (because I am an economist, 773 00:46:40,165 --> 00:46:40,865 that's how we do things: “on the one hand, on the other hand”), 774 00:46:40,865 --> 00:46:47,281 Social norms are surprisingly malleable, and they can also change very quickly. 775 00:46:47,281 --> 00:46:52,063 And we have, again, good social science evidence 776 00:46:52,063 --> 00:46:56,180 showing that things like role models matters (we were just discussing); 777 00:46:56,180 --> 00:46:58,848 things like media messaging matters. 778 00:46:58,848 --> 00:47:00,531 Let me give you a couple examples. 779 00:47:00,531 --> 00:47:03,568 Eliana La Ferrara and her colleagues 780 00:47:03,568 --> 00:47:09,297 have shown that in Brazil, when soap operas came on TV— 781 00:47:09,297 --> 00:47:10,548 this is sort of amazing-- 782 00:47:10,548 --> 00:47:15,864 using variation in where they were viewed at different timing, 783 00:47:15,864 --> 00:47:27,614 they document a causal link, exposure to the smaller families and divorce on— 784 00:47:27,614 --> 00:47:28,430 you know, like in those communities that saw those media images, 785 00:47:28,430 --> 00:47:33,564 that led to a change in family formation, an increase in divorce, fewer kids. 786 00:47:33,564 --> 00:47:45,628 Like people responded by emulating what they saw on TV. 787 00:47:45,628 --> 00:47:46,165 In a very different setting, my colleague Phil Levin and I looked at what happened 788 00:47:46,165 --> 00:47:46,779 when the “16 and Pregnant” and “Teen Mom” franchise came on MTV 789 00:47:46,779 --> 00:47:47,562 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, talk about that. 790 00:47:47,562 --> 00:47:48,229 That was a really interesting point of the book. 791 00:47:48,229 --> 00:47:49,079 >>[KEARNEY] This is crazy. 792 00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:49,979 All of a sudden, one year, teen childbearing in the U.S. 793 00:47:49,979 --> 00:47:52,245 went down by way more than it had been falling. 794 00:47:52,245 --> 00:47:55,112 So teen childbearing had been falling in the U.S. 795 00:47:55,112 --> 00:47:57,762 And then one year, there was a really large drop. 796 00:47:57,762 --> 00:48:00,845 And we had studied this issue 797 00:48:00,845 --> 00:48:02,445 enough to know [that] it wasn't the unemployment rate. 798 00:48:02,445 --> 00:48:03,429 It wasn't sex ed. 799 00:48:03,429 --> 00:48:04,597 What could this be? 800 00:48:04,597 --> 00:48:13,346 It turns out that when this show came on TV, which millions of teenagers watched, 801 00:48:13,346 --> 00:48:14,062 it was a pretty realistic depiction of how unglamorous it was to be pregnant at 16, 802 00:48:14,062 --> 00:48:18,229 >>[DEYOUNG] “16 and Pregnant” is the MTV show. 803 00:48:18,229 --> 00:48:18,998 >>[KEARNEY] “16 and Pregnant.” 804 00:48:18,998 --> 00:48:20,246 And so we had an R.A. [research assistant?] 805 00:48:20,246 --> 00:48:22,446 watch all the shows and code up what happens. 806 00:48:22,446 --> 00:48:24,997 Well, what happens? Most of the boyfriends don't stick around. 807 00:48:24,997 --> 00:48:28,113 Most of these young girls are stuck with a crying baby in the middle of the night. 808 00:48:28,113 --> 00:48:30,579 Like, you might have thought that people would know being a teen mom was hard, 809 00:48:30,579 --> 00:48:32,561 but apparently, this was really salient. 810 00:48:32,561 --> 00:48:34,061 And in those communities 811 00:48:34,061 --> 00:48:41,049 where more people were watching MTV before this show even came on 812 00:48:41,049 --> 00:48:41,727 (so MTV just had more market penetration in certain areas). 813 00:48:41,727 --> 00:48:43,578 When this show came on the air, 814 00:48:43,578 --> 00:48:47,194 you saw a larger reduction in teen childbearing in those places. 815 00:48:47,194 --> 00:48:52,094 And so the idea here is: Gosh, this show really changed hearts and minds 816 00:48:52,094 --> 00:48:54,960 in ways that affected behaviors that affected birth rates. 817 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,677 And so we got access to Google and Twitter data, 818 00:48:58,677 --> 00:49:00,944 and you see that when these episodes aired, 819 00:49:00,944 --> 00:49:04,928 there would be a spike in Google searching for how to get birth control. 820 00:49:04,928 --> 00:49:05,894 There would be a spike in tweets mentioning this show and birth control. 821 00:49:05,894 --> 00:49:08,144 So there was this idea that people saw this show 822 00:49:08,144 --> 00:49:16,210 and decided they didn't want to become pregnant as a teenager. 823 00:49:16,210 --> 00:49:20,694 Which again, it's just really amazing because it validates this idea 824 00:49:20,694 --> 00:49:25,563 that exposure to content and ideas affects people's attitudes 825 00:49:25,563 --> 00:49:27,163 in ways that affects their behaviors, 826 00:49:27,163 --> 00:49:31,281 even in the really complicated domains of marriage, family formation, and having kids. 827 00:49:31,281 --> 00:49:34,213 >>[DEYOUNG] It was really fascinating. 828 00:49:34,213 --> 00:49:35,747 I've heard of the show. 829 00:49:35,747 --> 00:49:39,729 I can't say I've watched it before or that we have a lot of MTV on. 830 00:49:39,729 --> 00:49:43,259 But yeah, I mean, you did the homework 831 00:49:43,259 --> 00:49:46,019 to show there's probably some connection there. 832 00:49:46,019 --> 00:49:49,251 You say at the end of the book: 833 00:49:49,251 --> 00:49:53,562 “Here are things we should do to address the challenges I've laid out, 834 00:49:53,562 --> 00:49:56,365 and then some things I do not think we should do.” 835 00:49:56,365 --> 00:49:57,512 And these are good. 836 00:49:57,512 --> 00:50:00,562 But I want to highlight two because I just wonder: 837 00:50:00,562 --> 00:50:02,770 How do we do both of these things? 838 00:50:02,770 --> 00:50:05,876 So here's what you say we should do: 839 00:50:05,876 --> 00:50:09,660 “Work to restore and foster a norm of two-parent homes for children.” 840 00:50:09,660 --> 00:50:10,457 Good. 841 00:50:10,457 --> 00:50:12,970 “Here's one thing we should not do: 842 00:50:12,970 --> 00:50:15,950 Stigmatize single mothers or encourage unhealthy marriages.” 843 00:50:16,044 --> 00:50:18,132 So I agree with both of those things. 844 00:50:18,132 --> 00:50:23,001 Here's what I wrestle with a lot, and I wrestle with it as a pastor 845 00:50:23,001 --> 00:50:24,815 and it’s stigma. 846 00:50:24,815 --> 00:50:28,682 So we think of stigma as universally a bad thing, 847 00:50:28,682 --> 00:50:34,000 and yet we want to stigmatize racism or all sorts of things. 848 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:39,365 There are bad behaviors that our culture and our communities do a lot to say: 849 00:50:39,365 --> 00:50:43,166 “That's a bad thing to do.” 850 00:50:43,166 --> 00:50:49,416 So I think as a pastor-- and I don't know what your views are on this, 851 00:50:49,416 --> 00:50:52,716 So I'm not presuming that you share these personal views. 852 00:50:52,716 --> 00:50:56,906 But, I believe the Bible says that sex before marriage is wrong, 853 00:50:56,906 --> 00:51:00,757 but also the Bible says you can be forgiven for that. 854 00:51:00,757 --> 00:51:02,756 And it's not the end of your life. 855 00:51:02,756 --> 00:51:06,906 And so, on the one hand, I think about our church community, 856 00:51:06,906 --> 00:51:09,456 which has a pretty thick culture 857 00:51:09,456 --> 00:51:11,990 and what you described, you know, your neighborhood, 858 00:51:11,990 --> 00:51:13,556 there are certain norms. 859 00:51:13,556 --> 00:51:18,690 There are certain things that it just looks normal to have a mom and a dad. 860 00:51:18,690 --> 00:51:24,055 It looks normal to work hard at school. It looks normal to not do drugs. 861 00:51:24,185 --> 00:51:26,418 [It looks normal] to pursue education. 862 00:51:26,418 --> 00:51:28,336 All of these things are good. 863 00:51:28,336 --> 00:51:34,002 And so there would be if somebody in our church, you know, was 16 and pregnant, 864 00:51:34,002 --> 00:51:37,235 it would raise eyebrows and there'd be something of a stigma. 865 00:51:37,235 --> 00:51:39,803 So on the one hand, I wanna say— 866 00:51:39,803 --> 00:51:41,968 >>[KEARNEY] But also hope you guys would love her and embrace her 867 00:51:41,968 --> 00:51:43,134 and pay for her diapers and-- 868 00:51:43,134 --> 00:51:44,019 >>[DEYOUNG] Yes, absolutely. 869 00:51:44,019 --> 00:51:46,135 So what I'm getting to is: 870 00:51:46,135 --> 00:51:53,833 How do we do it so that the behavior, like in our case, would be stigmatized, 871 00:51:53,833 --> 00:51:57,100 but the person is not cast off. 872 00:51:57,100 --> 00:52:00,451 And in fact, somebody said, this really just helped open my eyes. 873 00:52:00,451 --> 00:52:04,167 Of course, I should-- You know, it's not even out-of-wedlock births. 874 00:52:04,167 --> 00:52:08,450 I mean, we should, from my perspective, applaud the mom who is going through 875 00:52:08,450 --> 00:52:14,851 and having the child and working to, you know, sacrifice so much. 876 00:52:14,851 --> 00:52:17,866 We want to applaud that decision, I do. 877 00:52:17,866 --> 00:52:23,650 So it's always this push and pull of how to establish norms, 878 00:52:23,650 --> 00:52:26,283 because norms say something is normal. 879 00:52:26,283 --> 00:52:32,200 But then when something is outside of that normal, as you were right to interject, 880 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:37,684 yeah, I want our community to love that mom and sign up for meals, 881 00:52:37,684 --> 00:52:40,867 which I know they would and buy diapers and do all of that. 882 00:52:40,867 --> 00:52:42,750 How do you think about that as an economist 883 00:52:42,750 --> 00:52:44,240 or even just as a mom or as— 884 00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:45,953 >>[KEARNEY] As a person? [chuckles] 885 00:52:45,953 --> 00:52:46,868 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. 886 00:52:46,868 --> 00:52:49,783 >>[KEARNEY] I mean, I think you completely put your finger 887 00:52:49,844 --> 00:52:55,111 on probably the hardest needle I'm trying to thread 888 00:52:55,111 --> 00:52:57,194 by saying those two things. 889 00:52:57,194 --> 00:53:01,077 And somebody said directly to me, like, “We DO need to bring back shame.” 890 00:53:01,077 --> 00:53:07,410 But there's, you know, there's a role for it. So here's what I mean when I say that. 891 00:53:07,410 --> 00:53:10,461 I'll give you examples of things on those two points-- 892 00:53:10,461 --> 00:53:11,444 >>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hmm. 893 00:53:11,444 --> 00:53:12,827 >>[KEARNEY] that I would and wouldn’t do. 894 00:53:12,827 --> 00:53:18,511 So the stigma of single moms and their kids that basically in the past, 895 00:53:18,511 --> 00:53:21,161 made them outcast from society, 896 00:53:21,161 --> 00:53:24,560 let's all agree we should never go back to that, right? 897 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:30,044 We do not want women feeling like they're trapped in abusive marriages, right? 898 00:53:30,044 --> 00:53:34,577 And we do not want children and their single parents 899 00:53:34,577 --> 00:53:38,894 to be even more deprived of resources 900 00:53:38,894 --> 00:53:41,044 by punishing them for where they are. 901 00:53:41,044 --> 00:53:45,805 >>[DEYOUNG] You're 18, and you get a second-class life for the rest of it. 902 00:53:45,805 --> 00:53:47,502 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah. And here you are. 903 00:53:47,502 --> 00:53:52,386 So those are terribly counterproductive approaches that we should never go back to. 904 00:53:52,386 --> 00:53:54,916 At the same time, I mean, 905 00:53:55,585 --> 00:53:59,837 I'm not going to totally point my finger at like Disney Plus or Netflix or Hollywood. 906 00:53:59,837 --> 00:54:05,986 But you know, the television portrayal of families has gone so far to say: 907 00:54:05,986 --> 00:54:08,237 “Hey, it's totally fine.” 908 00:54:08,237 --> 00:54:11,802 You know, this one's being raised with her mom and her new boyfriend, 909 00:54:11,802 --> 00:54:15,751 but her old boyfriend is still they're all good friends and it's awesome. 910 00:54:15,751 --> 00:54:20,269 But that's, like, such a farce. That's not really what it looks like. 911 00:54:20,269 --> 00:54:23,934 So let's be honest that, you know, 912 00:54:23,934 --> 00:54:28,236 we could accept and love all sorts of family arrangements, 913 00:54:28,236 --> 00:54:33,420 while still being honest about what is best for kids in particular. 914 00:54:33,420 --> 00:54:37,553 And by the way, it's not great for single parents who tend to be under-resourced 915 00:54:37,553 --> 00:54:39,037 to be doing this by themselves. 916 00:54:39,037 --> 00:54:41,886 So, the kinds of things about fostering norms, 917 00:54:41,886 --> 00:54:47,952 for instance, a lot of the social service agencies or programs 918 00:54:47,952 --> 00:54:52,603 for, you know, single moms and their kids, the dads will tell you this: 919 00:54:52,603 --> 00:54:54,619 You go into those buildings, and the picture, 920 00:54:54,619 --> 00:54:59,470 like, the logo is basically a mom and her daughter, or a mom and her child. 921 00:54:59,470 --> 00:55:00,403 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. 922 00:55:00,403 --> 00:55:02,954 >>[KEARNEY] There's not even a dad in the picture, right? 923 00:55:02,954 --> 00:55:04,518 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, that’s a norm. 924 00:55:04,518 --> 00:55:06,386 >>[KEARNEY] And so these responsible fatherhood programs walk in, 925 00:55:06,386 --> 00:55:08,586 and they're like, the dad isn't even in the picture. 926 00:55:08,586 --> 00:55:12,419 In an effort to being sort of welcoming of the reality 927 00:55:12,419 --> 00:55:16,201 that a lot of these programs serve single moms and their kids, 928 00:55:16,201 --> 00:55:19,019 there's not even an expectation of a dad being around. 929 00:55:19,019 --> 00:55:23,336 And that kind of subtlety, I think matters, right? 930 00:55:23,336 --> 00:55:25,436 So, I was even talking to a woman 931 00:55:25,436 --> 00:55:29,602 who runs a program for lifting up single moms, and I said to her: 932 00:55:29,602 --> 00:55:31,987 “Well, you're part of the solution. You're working to strengthen families.” 933 00:55:31,987 --> 00:55:33,714 And she stopped, and very thoughtfully, 934 00:55:33,714 --> 00:55:38,501 she said, “But I've never thought to ask, where's the dad? Why isn't he around?” 935 00:55:38,501 --> 00:55:41,097 And that's a bit of a mind shift, right? 936 00:55:41,209 --> 00:55:43,307 To say, let's think about strengthening families. 937 00:55:43,307 --> 00:55:48,306 Let's talk about the importance of dads, how they can contribute 938 00:55:48,306 --> 00:55:57,022 without stigmatizing the one parent and their child so strongly 939 00:55:57,022 --> 00:55:59,305 that they feel like they're not enveloped in support. 940 00:55:59,305 --> 00:56:02,604 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, yeah, and I think you said earlier, 941 00:56:02,604 --> 00:56:07,305 this is going to happen at a personal level and community level. 942 00:56:07,305 --> 00:56:11,123 I mean, I think of a number of women in our church who volunteer 943 00:56:11,123 --> 00:56:15,204 with a Christian Young Lives program that reaches out 944 00:56:15,204 --> 00:56:19,471 and my younger daughters have volunteered to do some of the babysitting 945 00:56:19,471 --> 00:56:21,139 so these single moms can get training, 946 00:56:21,139 --> 00:56:24,288 and, you know, in our context, it’s Bible studies and other things. 947 00:56:24,288 --> 00:56:29,222 And there's lots of people who do care about these things. 948 00:56:29,222 --> 00:56:30,305 And anybody listening who does, 949 00:56:30,305 --> 00:56:35,255 there are things and good programs that can make a difference and help with these. 950 00:56:35,255 --> 00:56:37,921 So my last question for you. 951 00:56:37,921 --> 00:56:40,456 Thank you so much for writing this book, Melissa. 952 00:56:40,456 --> 00:56:44,105 If any of my kids go to the University of Maryland, 953 00:56:44,105 --> 00:56:46,354 it's not on their list, but if they do, I'll tell them to take a class. 954 00:56:46,354 --> 00:56:47,605 >>[KEARNEY, laughing] Great! 955 00:56:47,605 --> 00:56:49,055 >>[DEYOUNG] You're doing undergrads. 956 00:56:49,055 --> 00:56:51,189 What do you have coming up next? 957 00:56:51,189 --> 00:56:54,837 What are you working on? Academic books, popular books? 958 00:56:54,837 --> 00:56:56,105 What are you doing? 959 00:56:56,105 --> 00:57:01,623 Hopefully, you know, some of the negative feedback you're probably getting on this book 960 00:57:01,623 --> 00:57:05,305 doesn't keep you away from it because it's really helpful. 961 00:57:05,305 --> 00:57:06,934 >>[KEARNEY] I appreciate that. 962 00:57:06,934 --> 00:57:09,882 I will say, because I wrapped up this manuscript, you know, some time ago 963 00:57:09,882 --> 00:57:11,455 before it actually shows up in print. 964 00:57:11,455 --> 00:57:12,471 >>[DEYOUNG] In COVID, I think. 965 00:57:12,471 --> 00:57:15,654 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah. Over the past two years, 966 00:57:15,654 --> 00:57:19,483 I've been working a lot trying to understand the decline in fertility, 967 00:57:19,483 --> 00:57:23,062 which is another, you know, not uncontroversial topic. 968 00:57:23,218 --> 00:57:23,818 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. 969 00:57:23,818 --> 00:57:28,133 >>[KEARNEY] But again, there's a lot of economic causes and consequences 970 00:57:28,133 --> 00:57:31,150 to the decline in fertility, and so that's another one 971 00:57:31,150 --> 00:57:35,319 where setting aside all sorts of moral or value judgments 972 00:57:35,319 --> 00:57:37,653 about how we think somebody should live their lives. 973 00:57:37,653 --> 00:57:42,171 The fact that in high income countries, we are now below replacement level, 974 00:57:42,171 --> 00:57:46,720 fertility is going to pose a lot of challenges on our economic and social structures. 975 00:57:47,826 --> 00:57:49,008 >>[DEYOUNG] Good. 976 00:57:49,008 --> 00:57:52,459 >>[KEARNEY] Studying that is, you know, what I've been thinking about. 977 00:57:52,459 --> 00:57:54,042 >>[DEYOUNG] Well, I will read that. 978 00:57:54,042 --> 00:57:55,426 >>[KEARNEY, laughing] Okay, great. 979 00:57:55,426 --> 00:57:57,159 >>[DEYOUNG] Glad for you to write that. 980 00:57:57,159 --> 00:57:58,109 It's really important. 981 00:57:58,109 --> 00:58:01,226 Again, talking to Melissa, “The Two-Parent Privilege: 982 00:58:01,226 --> 00:58:04,609 How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.” 983 00:58:04,609 --> 00:58:06,559 Thank you so much for taking time 984 00:58:06,559 --> 00:58:10,076 and working before we started this to get all the mics and headsets. 985 00:58:10,076 --> 00:58:12,076 And thank you to your husband. 986 00:58:12,076 --> 00:58:13,626 >>[KEARNEY] It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me. 987 00:58:13,626 --> 00:58:15,259 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, thank you. 988 00:58:15,259 --> 00:58:19,042 So thank you for listening to Life & Books & Everything, 989 00:58:19,042 --> 00:58:21,459 a ministry of Clearly Reformed. 990 00:58:21,459 --> 00:58:25,909 You can get episodes like this and other resources at clearlyreformed.org 991 00:58:25,909 --> 00:58:30,776 Until next time glorify God, enjoy him forever, read a good book. 992 00:58:30,776 --> 00:58:40,743 ♪ [up-tempo closing music] ♪ 993 00:58:40,743 --> 00:58:42,511 [END]