WEBVTT 00:00:00.062 --> 00:00:06.809 ♪ [up-tempo opening music] ♪ 00:00:06.809 --> 00:00:09.196 >>[KEVIN DEYOUNG, HOST] Greetings and salutations. 00:00:09.196 --> 00:00:11.430 Welcome back to “Life & Books & Everything.” 00:00:11.430 --> 00:00:13.026 I'm Kevin DeYoung, Senior Pastor 00:00:13.026 --> 00:00:15.711 at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, North Carolina. 00:00:15.711 --> 00:00:21.000 And I am joined today by my special guest, Melissa Kearney. 00:00:21.460 --> 00:00:26.209 And we're going to talk about her new book called “The Two-Parent Privilege.” 00:00:26.209 --> 00:00:31.413 Melissa has a very august resume here. 00:00:31.413 --> 00:00:34.838 She's Professor of Economics at the University of Maryland; 00:00:34.838 --> 00:00:38.608 director of a number of different research groups; 00:00:38.608 --> 00:00:41.323 and a nonresident, senior fellow at Brookings; 00:00:41.323 --> 00:00:45.857 and a scholar in a number of different labs and affiliations and journals 00:00:45.857 --> 00:00:48.902 and lots of good academic work that she's done. 00:00:48.902 --> 00:00:53.892 She did her undergraduate at Princeton, PhD in Economics at MIT. 00:00:53.892 --> 00:00:57.061 Melissa, thank you for coming on here to talk about your new book. 00:00:57.061 --> 00:00:58.508 >>[MELISSA KEARNEY, GUEST] Happy to be here. 00:00:58.508 --> 00:01:00.040 Thanks so much for having me. 00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:04.126 >>[DEYOUNG] So this is a book about parents, 00:01:04.126 --> 00:01:11.612 and it's a book where you're using your expertise as a trained academic economist. 00:01:11.612 --> 00:01:14.021 But you also write personally. 00:01:14.021 --> 00:01:16.463 You say at the beginning and at the end, in particular, 00:01:16.463 --> 00:01:22.028 that you're a mom and an economist, and that's in the correct order. 00:01:22.028 --> 00:01:23.295 That's what's most important. 00:01:23.295 --> 00:01:27.571 And you have three kids. So tell us about your family. 00:01:27.571 --> 00:01:31.146 >>[KEARNEY] Okay. It's exactly right. I'm a trained economist, 00:01:31.146 --> 00:01:36.341 but I think the greatest thing I do is be a mom to my three kids, 00:01:36.341 --> 00:01:42.854 a boy and two girls, and I'm raising them with my husband in suburban Maryland. 00:01:42.854 --> 00:01:45.943 >>[DEYOUNG] And how did you get to the University of Maryland? 00:01:45.943 --> 00:01:48.657 And are you a big “Terps” [Terrapins] sports fan? 00:01:48.657 --> 00:01:52.653 >>[KEARNEY, chuckling] I mean, I admit that I spend most of my time 00:01:52.653 --> 00:01:54.289 over in the economics department, 00:01:54.289 --> 00:01:57.639 but I do cheer for the Terps every now and then, 00:01:57.639 --> 00:01:59.490 and I'm delighted when they do well. 00:01:59.490 --> 00:02:04.105 I have been at the University of Maryland for 17 years now; 00:02:04.105 --> 00:02:10.106 moved down to DC from the Boston area probably 19 years ago; 00:02:10.106 --> 00:02:14.943 went to Brookings on a two-year fellowship, did some dedicated research there 00:02:14.943 --> 00:02:17.911 on topics that I've been working on for over two decades 00:02:17.911 --> 00:02:22.311 (U.S. inequality, poverty, child and family well-being); 00:02:22.311 --> 00:02:26.326 and then took a tenure track job at Maryland where I've been ever since, 00:02:26.326 --> 00:02:30.559 and I enjoy teaching the undergrads there and training PhD students there 00:02:30.559 --> 00:02:36.560 and working as part of a really intellectually vibrant economics department. 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:39.459 >>[DEYOUNG] And how did you get interested in this topic, 00:02:39.459 --> 00:02:41.303 which I know is part of broader interest. 00:02:41.303 --> 00:02:43.953 You just mentioned inequality and other things, 00:02:43.953 --> 00:02:48.991 but this area having to do with families and parents? 00:02:48.991 --> 00:02:53.705 >>[KEARNEY] Since I was an undergrad, 00:02:53.705 --> 00:02:59.635 I've really been interested in the economic and social lives of women and children. 00:02:59.635 --> 00:03:02.707 I really have sort of always had an interest 00:03:02.707 --> 00:03:07.252 in questions about how society works or doesn't work well for certain groups of people 00:03:07.252 --> 00:03:11.637 with a particular interest in less economically advantaged groups. 00:03:11.637 --> 00:03:15.594 And so those are the questions that brought me to economics, actually. 00:03:15.594 --> 00:03:18.358 Let me just say, because a lot of people, I think, 00:03:18.358 --> 00:03:22.607 think about economics as finance or stock picking and that kind of thing, 00:03:22.607 --> 00:03:26.391 which is nothing to do with the kind of economics I do. 00:03:26.391 --> 00:03:30.508 You know, as an undergrad, I was interested in questions of society and public policy, 00:03:30.508 --> 00:03:32.743 took a bunch of those classes, 00:03:32.743 --> 00:03:41.752 but loved the sort of rigor and theory and empirical work of economics. 00:03:41.752 --> 00:03:46.893 And so I used those tools of economics to ask these questions. 00:03:46.893 --> 00:03:51.021 How did I become interested in questions about women and families? 00:03:51.021 --> 00:03:54.224 I suppose it has to do with, you know, 00:03:54.224 --> 00:03:58.485 like many of us being interested in the world around us the way we grew up. 00:03:58.485 --> 00:04:03.224 And so it was, you know, I grew up in New Jersey in the ‘80s, 00:04:03.224 --> 00:04:08.243 very cognizant of the fact that I had educational opportunities, 00:04:08.243 --> 00:04:13.208 economic opportunities that my mom and my grandma and their sisters didn't have. 00:04:13.208 --> 00:04:15.560 And so were my grandma's sisters didn't have. 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:19.441 And so those kinds of questions really were at the forefront of my mind. 00:04:19.441 --> 00:04:21.711 And then I spent a summer in college — 00:04:21.711 --> 00:04:25.972 this was really a very salient experience for me — 00:04:25.972 --> 00:04:27.072 I spent a summer in college 00:04:27.072 --> 00:04:30.077 working at a welfare-to-work center in Bridgeport, Connecticut. 00:04:30.077 --> 00:04:35.287 And you know, got to know and work with women who were my age at the time, 00:04:35.287 --> 00:04:39.870 probably between 17 and 22, and they were all moms receiving welfare, 00:04:39.870 --> 00:04:43.857 and they had to go to this training program in order to keep their benefits. 00:04:43.857 --> 00:04:48.223 But that summer just, you know, really sort of cemented my interest 00:04:48.223 --> 00:04:52.038 in thinking about how policies and economic conditions 00:04:52.038 --> 00:04:55.759 affect the decisions and well-being of women and families. 00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:58.357 And so that's been a common thread of my research 00:04:58.357 --> 00:05:01.205 throughout my time as an academic economist. 00:05:01.205 --> 00:05:07.140 >>[DEYOUNG] So I'm not an expert in these things. I'm a pastor. 00:05:07.140 --> 00:05:12.656 My PhD is in history, but I like reading these things. 00:05:12.656 --> 00:05:17.769 And so I was interested to read not only you citing Sarah McLanahan a number of times, 00:05:17.769 --> 00:05:20.272 but you had her at Princeton. 00:05:20.272 --> 00:05:21.739 So tell us about her influence, 00:05:21.739 --> 00:05:25.756 and anyone who's read in this area of marriage and family 00:05:25.756 --> 00:05:29.539 knows that she's done lots of really important empirical research. 00:05:29.539 --> 00:05:34.858 What role did she play in your intellectual formation or interest in this? 00:05:34.858 --> 00:05:38.605 >>[KEARNEY] Sarah McClanahan really was a pioneer in this field. 00:05:38.605 --> 00:05:43.441 She created or launched what was called “The Fragile Family Survey” 00:05:43.441 --> 00:05:48.523 that you know, interviewed and collected data 00:05:48.523 --> 00:05:53.869 on unmarried parents at the time of their child's birth and tracked them over time. 00:05:53.869 --> 00:05:57.074 And so it's really a credit to Sarah McClanahan 00:05:57.074 --> 00:06:00.086 that we have as much information as we do 00:06:00.086 --> 00:06:07.105 on these particularly vulnerable families: unmarried parents, mostly low-income. 00:06:07.105 --> 00:06:11.740 And so she really trained a lot of students in this field. 00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:17.040 I am actually not— I don't consider myself a direct trainee of Sarah. 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:18.923 She was a sociologist, 00:06:18.923 --> 00:06:23.839 but I did have the great fortune of taking her Sociology of Poverty class 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:27.051 when I was an undergrad, even though I was an economics major. 00:06:27.051 --> 00:06:33.241 And it was in her class that I was really introduced to this topic of family structure 00:06:33.241 --> 00:06:38.035 as it relates to poverty and child well-being. 00:06:38.035 --> 00:06:40.839 I think that was really formative 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.954 because economists sort of pose questions in different ways. 00:06:44.954 --> 00:06:49.506 And so my work as an economist over the past 20 plus years, 00:06:49.506 --> 00:06:51.968 looking at inequality and poverty 00:06:51.968 --> 00:06:57.472 has tended to focus on issues other than family structure. 00:06:57.551 --> 00:06:57.933 >>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hm. 00:06:57.933 --> 00:07:01.117 [KEARNEY] But I was, like, teed up to recognize the importance of that early on, 00:07:01.117 --> 00:07:05.768 having been exposed to Sarah McLanahan as a professor and her work from early on. 00:07:05.768 --> 00:07:09.880 And so, actually, that's sort of the confluence of those events, 00:07:09.880 --> 00:07:13.181 me being an economist, bringing an economist lens to the topic. 00:07:13.181 --> 00:07:20.550 But knowing Sarah McClanahan's work really well, I think has just kept me noticing. 00:07:20.550 --> 00:07:25.833 Every time there's a study on inequality, social mobility, kids' outcomes, 00:07:25.833 --> 00:07:28.792 you just see how important family structure is in the data. 00:07:29.220 --> 00:07:32.836 And so, I think, you know, it was she— 00:07:32.836 --> 00:07:37.484 knowing her work, having her teach me early on in my studies of these topics 00:07:37.484 --> 00:07:41.636 has just sort of heightened my awareness 00:07:41.636 --> 00:07:45.789 of the role of family structure in driving these kinds of economic outcomes. 00:07:45.789 --> 00:07:51.768 >>[DEYOUNG] Give you the lens to see what maybe other people haven't seen 00:07:51.768 --> 00:07:53.152 or didn't want to see. 00:07:53.152 --> 00:07:56.537 We'll get to that in a moment. But let's jump into your book. 00:07:56.537 --> 00:07:59.347 So I'm talking to Melissa Kearney, “The Two-Parent Privilege: 00:07:59.347 --> 00:08:03.521 How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.” 00:08:03.521 --> 00:08:07.419 It just came out this fall, published by University of Chicago Press. 00:08:07.419 --> 00:08:11.652 So big-picture question, What is the “two-parent privilege”? 00:08:11.652 --> 00:08:16.469 [KEARNEY] The two-parent privilege, as I'm using the term, refers to the fact 00:08:16.469 --> 00:08:23.319 that having two parents in one's home confers a lot of advantages to children. 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:28.150 This is VERY well established in the data and in empirical research. 00:08:28.150 --> 00:08:33.836 The reason I call it a privilege is because not only is this a very advantageous situation, 00:08:33.836 --> 00:08:35.832 but increasingly in this country, 00:08:35.832 --> 00:08:39.722 this has become an advantageous situation 00:08:39.722 --> 00:08:44.710 enjoyed disproportionately by an already advantaged class. 00:08:44.710 --> 00:08:49.656 And so it's really now college-educated parents 00:08:49.656 --> 00:08:54.477 who continue to raise their kids in two-parent homes at very high rates. 00:08:54.477 --> 00:08:56.777 Meanwhile, over the past 40 years, 00:08:56.777 --> 00:09:01.242 the share of children being raised in two-parent households, 00:09:01.242 --> 00:09:06.208 among those who were born to parents WITHOUT a four-year college degree 00:09:06.208 --> 00:09:12.704 has decreased by a really sizable amount and has just been a steady downward trend. 00:09:12.704 --> 00:09:17.756 And so now, having a two-parent family is yet another privilege 00:09:17.756 --> 00:09:23.092 of the already most privileged economic class in American society. 00:09:23.092 --> 00:09:24.982 >>[DEYOUNG] So this is how you put it. 00:09:24.982 --> 00:09:28.693 You have some great summaries at the end and at the beginning, 00:09:28.693 --> 00:09:32.475 but here's one in the preface. 00:09:32.475 --> 00:09:34.621 You say, I've studied U.S. poverty, inequality, family structure 00:09:34.621 --> 00:09:35.971 for almost a quarter of a century. 00:09:35.971 --> 00:09:41.412 I approached these issues as a hard-headed, albeit soft-hearted MIT-trained economist. 00:09:41.412 --> 00:09:45.535 Based on the overwhelming evidence at hand, I can say with the utmost confidence 00:09:45.535 --> 00:09:49.167 that the decline in marriage and the corresponding rise in the share 00:09:49.167 --> 00:09:50.979 of children being raised in one-parent homes 00:09:50.979 --> 00:09:55.516 has contributed to the economic insecurity of American families; 00:09:55.516 --> 00:09:58.463 has widened gap in opportunities and outcomes 00:09:58.463 --> 00:10:00.097 for children from different backgrounds; 00:10:00.097 --> 00:10:03.546 and today poses economic and social challenges 00:10:03.546 --> 00:10:08.235 that we cannot afford to ignore, but may not be able to reverse.” 00:10:08.235 --> 00:10:15.485 I found a quotation just again, Sarah McClanahan and Isabel Sawhill say 00:10:15.485 --> 00:10:18.080 (this is the 2015 journal “Future of Children”) 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:19.984 quote “Most scholars now agree 00:10:19.984 --> 00:10:22.632 that children raised by two biological parents in a stable marriage 00:10:22.632 --> 00:10:27.165 do better than children and other family forms across a wide range of outcomes.” 00:10:27.165 --> 00:10:31.095 I want to dive into the data that you give in just a moment, 00:10:31.095 --> 00:10:37.281 but back up a little bit and talk about Why is this so hard to talk about? 00:10:37.281 --> 00:10:39.545 because it's very clear in reading your book 00:10:39.545 --> 00:10:44.386 that you're trying very hard to stick with the data 00:10:44.386 --> 00:10:48.478 and not to make moral value judgments. 00:10:48.478 --> 00:10:53.228 I'm a pastor, so I can't avoid, you know, when I'm speaking from the Bible, 00:10:53.228 --> 00:10:56.860 making some value judgments that I think the Bible teaches. 00:10:56.860 --> 00:11:02.329 But that's obviously not what you're doing, and you're studiously trying to avoid that. 00:11:02.329 --> 00:11:03.962 And yet, you talk at the beginning 00:11:03.962 --> 00:11:09.335 about how these conversations at academic conferences, 00:11:09.335 --> 00:11:12.918 “I'm an economist, much more comfortable talking about earned income tax credit 00:11:12.918 --> 00:11:14.680 and other kind of policy.” 00:11:14.680 --> 00:11:18.581 And when you talk about, well, what about marriage? 00:11:18.581 --> 00:11:20.515 It's the proverbial lead balloon. 00:11:20.515 --> 00:11:21.851 What has your experience been? 00:11:21.851 --> 00:11:24.550 Why is even talking about this so difficult, 00:11:24.550 --> 00:11:29.301 probably, especially for someone like you in academic atmosphere? 00:11:29.301 --> 00:11:30.563 [KEARNEY, chuckling] That's right. 00:11:30.563 --> 00:11:33.418 So I have had plenty of people comment on my book. 00:11:33.418 --> 00:11:35.165 This isn't hard for ME to talk about. 00:11:35.165 --> 00:11:38.334 I talk about it with my church friends all the time. 00:11:38.334 --> 00:11:39.781 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. Right. 00:11:39.781 --> 00:11:40.748 [KEARNEY But in academic settings, 00:11:40.748 --> 00:11:45.049 it's difficult, and there's a lot of reasons here. 00:11:45.049 --> 00:11:47.702 I'm going to say most of them are very, very well intentioned, 00:11:47.702 --> 00:11:53.227 which is that most of us don't want to sound like 00:11:53.227 --> 00:11:59.266 we're blaming single mothers for their difficult circumstances… 00:11:59.266 --> 00:11:59.983 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 00:11:59.983 --> 00:12:02.282 [KEARNEY] …and the relative disadvantage that their children suffers. 00:12:02.282 --> 00:12:07.067 And I mean, I certainly don't want to sound like I'm blaming mothers. 00:12:07.067 --> 00:12:11.521 But also very sincerely, I mean this. I'm NOT blaming the single mothers. 00:12:11.521 --> 00:12:14.996 I'm recognizing that this is a challenging situation. 00:12:14.996 --> 00:12:20.695 Any of us who are parents would, I think, readily recognize that parenting is difficult. 00:12:20.695 --> 00:12:25.083 Doing it by oneself is, you know, that much more difficult. 00:12:25.166 --> 00:12:28.185 So there's a genuine empathy there. 00:12:28.185 --> 00:12:33.934 But I think people get nervous about calling attention to the relative disadvantage 00:12:33.934 --> 00:12:36.448 that kids from single-mother homes face 00:12:36.448 --> 00:12:41.166 because it sounds like we're blaming people who are in a very tough spot. 00:12:41.749 --> 00:12:42.270 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 00:12:42.270 --> 00:12:47.437 [KEARNEY] Right? And I think we should be very capable of recognizing 00:12:47.437 --> 00:12:50.768 that single parents — the majority of whom are still single moms — 00:12:50.768 --> 00:12:55.230 single parents are in a very difficult spot, and that puts their kids in a difficult spot. 00:12:55.230 --> 00:12:59.319 And so we should be able to recognize that and have an honest conversation about it. 00:12:59.319 --> 00:13:05.566 The other reason I think as academics, as economists interested in policy, 00:13:05.566 --> 00:13:07.303 it becomes difficult for us to talk about 00:13:07.303 --> 00:13:09.934 is because we don't have a very good answer 00:13:09.934 --> 00:13:13.396 to the critical question of: “Well, what do we do about it?” 00:13:13.396 --> 00:13:14.338 >>[DEYOUNG] Yes. 00:13:14.338 --> 00:13:16.798 >>[KEARNEY] Right? So if we talk instead 00:13:16.798 --> 00:13:19.197 about the fact that our tax code is not progressive enough 00:13:19.197 --> 00:13:21.002 or we're not raising enough revenue 00:13:21.002 --> 00:13:25.532 to cover expenses of things we feel like we might need to pay for, 00:13:25.532 --> 00:13:30.772 like more early childhood education or more public subsidies of childcare, 00:13:30.772 --> 00:13:32.605 it's pretty easy for us to sit in a room 00:13:32.605 --> 00:13:34.913 and come up with ways to make the tax code more progressive 00:13:34.913 --> 00:13:39.537 or design transfer programs to reach more people. 00:13:39.537 --> 00:13:44.980 It becomes a lot harder for us, and it takes us out of our real comfort zone 00:13:44.980 --> 00:13:46.821 when it comes to things like: 00:13:46.821 --> 00:13:51.248 How do we affect very personal decisions people are making 00:13:51.248 --> 00:13:54.835 about how to form their families and raise their children? 00:13:54.835 --> 00:13:55.586 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yeah. 00:13:55.586 --> 00:13:59.185 It's very personal, and it's almost impossible 00:13:59.185 --> 00:14:05.003 for any of us to talk about this or hear it without thinking of how I grew up, 00:14:05.003 --> 00:14:06.787 how I'm raising my kids. 00:14:06.787 --> 00:14:10.520 Do I have kids, all these personal things? I think that's why it's so difficult. 00:14:10.520 --> 00:14:14.550 There was a survey. I found these a couple years ago. 00:14:14.550 --> 00:14:16.399 It's an online survey, whatever they're worth. 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.653 I don't know the scientific methodology here, 00:14:18.653 --> 00:14:21.945 but it said, more than 70% of participants believed 00:14:21.945 --> 00:14:26.314 that a single parent can do just as good a job as two parents. 00:14:26.314 --> 00:14:31.480 60% of women (quote) “agreed that children do best with multiple adults invested, 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:34.465 but two married parents are not necessary.” 00:14:34.465 --> 00:14:36.603 Christina Cross, a few years ago, 00:14:36.603 --> 00:14:40.180 in The New York Times,” had an article, “The Myth of the Two-Parent Home.” 00:14:40.508 --> 00:14:44.121 And even as I say those, I feel myself wanting to say, 00:14:44.121 --> 00:14:48.954 “Uh, yeah, we're not just all the things you just said, Melissa.” 00:14:48.954 --> 00:14:51.888 We’re not saying that, you know, 00:14:51.888 --> 00:14:54.944 the single mom is to blame for all these problems, 00:14:54.944 --> 00:14:56.792 You know, where's the dad? 00:14:56.792 --> 00:14:59.359 The dad is, you know, for any number of reasons — 00:14:59.359 --> 00:15:02.143 and we're going to get to talking about boys and dads and just a bit — 00:15:02.143 --> 00:15:05.809 But I think that just underscores those surveys for whatever they're worth. 00:15:05.809 --> 00:15:09.992 I imagine people getting that phone call or online, being asked that question 00:15:09.992 --> 00:15:12.161 and thinking, “Well, I don't want to say 00:15:12.161 --> 00:15:16.160 that married couples are better than anyone else. 00:15:16.160 --> 00:15:18.011 Of course. Any number of people. 00:15:18.011 --> 00:15:21.627 And one of the myths — and I'd love for you to expound on this here — 00:15:21.627 --> 00:15:24.545 one of the myths you talk about several times in the book, 00:15:24.545 --> 00:15:26.293 is that people have the idea, 00:15:26.293 --> 00:15:28.711 “Well, sure, people aren't married 00:15:28.711 --> 00:15:32.194 and kids aren't being raised as much in married families. 00:15:32.194 --> 00:15:36.105 But it's just kind of European style, laissez-faire relationships. 00:15:36.105 --> 00:15:38.058 And it's the same thing. 00:15:38.058 --> 00:15:42.360 It's just people haven't gone through the formal structures of getting married.” 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:43.475 Is that true? 00:15:43.475 --> 00:15:45.220 >>[KEARNEY] Let me answer that 00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:49.075 and then come back to address the earlier points that you made, 00:15:49.075 --> 00:15:51.407 specifically about some of the reactions. 00:15:51.407 --> 00:15:55.359 So that is completely NOT true, which is really important 00:15:55.359 --> 00:16:00.009 because, again, since I'm taking an economist lens to this issue, 00:16:00.009 --> 00:16:04.703 what really matters in the way I describe, frame, model, 00:16:04.703 --> 00:16:09.141 and then empirically study marriage is the resources coming into a household. 00:16:09.141 --> 00:16:11.944 So if you had two parents who were together the whole time 00:16:11.944 --> 00:16:15.826 committed to sharing their resources, which is their income, their time, 00:16:15.826 --> 00:16:19.208 their energy to raising kids together throughout a kid's childhood, 00:16:19.208 --> 00:16:23.940 In my version (economic version) of this story, it shouldn't matter, 00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:26.128 but at a very practical level, 00:16:26.128 --> 00:16:29.260 that's NOT what unmarried parents are doing. 00:16:29.260 --> 00:16:33.857 40% of kids in this country are now born to unmarried parents. 00:16:33.857 --> 00:16:38.576 52% of kids born to moms without a four-year college degree 00:16:38.576 --> 00:16:40.425 are born to unmarried parents. 00:16:40.425 --> 00:16:44.686 70% of children born to Black moms in this country, unmarried parents. 00:16:44.686 --> 00:16:47.776 These parents aren't married at the time of the child's birth. 00:16:47.776 --> 00:16:49.552 And as a practical matter, 00:16:49.552 --> 00:16:53.859 very few of them will be together cohabiting, raising their kids together 00:16:53.859 --> 00:16:57.259 by the time this child is 5 years old, let alone 14 years old. 00:16:57.259 --> 00:16:59.023 This is one of the things we see in the data 00:16:59.023 --> 00:17:01.175 that Sarah McClanahan collected with her colleagues. 00:17:01.175 --> 00:17:05.507 And so, at a practical level, marriage -- 00:17:05.507 --> 00:17:08.810 and then, you know, there's a whole bunch of theories as to why this is true -- 00:17:08.810 --> 00:17:16.012 but marriage just provides an institutional framework, essentially, 00:17:16.012 --> 00:17:18.943 that keeps parents together in this arrangement raising their kids together. 00:17:18.943 --> 00:17:24.491 And so we can't be blasé about these really high number of kids 00:17:24.491 --> 00:17:28.220 being raised in an unmarried-parent home, being born to unmarried parents, 00:17:28.220 --> 00:17:31.268 because, again, just very what does that mean, practically? 00:17:31.268 --> 00:17:34.607 It means that most of them will grow up in a one-parent home. 00:17:34.607 --> 00:17:36.976 Okay, let me talk specifically 00:17:36.976 --> 00:17:42.252 just to respond to the reactions or critics that you raise. 00:17:42.252 --> 00:17:46.824 You know, 70% of adults say it's fine for kids to be raised in a single-mother home. 00:17:46.824 --> 00:17:50.609 Well, that could mean very many things. 00:17:50.609 --> 00:17:53.276 First, of course, there are lots of children 00:17:53.276 --> 00:17:57.152 who are raised by single moms who do phenomenally well. 00:17:57.152 --> 00:18:01.489 And there are plenty of single moms who have enough income 00:18:01.489 --> 00:18:05.722 or, you know, a village around them such that they can raise their kids 00:18:05.722 --> 00:18:10.118 in ways that are enriching home environments, 00:18:10.118 --> 00:18:11.522 and the kids can do very well. 00:18:11.522 --> 00:18:15.423 I'm focused on averages and large trends. 00:18:15.423 --> 00:18:19.639 And so we can all recognize the heroic efforts 00:18:19.639 --> 00:18:21.602 that some single moms go to 00:18:21.602 --> 00:18:25.501 to make sure their kids are just as successful as anyone else's children. 00:18:25.501 --> 00:18:27.276 But that doesn't mean that on average, 00:18:27.276 --> 00:18:32.470 two parents in a home don't have an easier time than one parent. 00:18:32.470 --> 00:18:35.334 And again, what we see in the data very clearly 00:18:35.334 --> 00:18:40.191 is that in a typical situation, two-parent homes deliver more benefits to kids 00:18:40.191 --> 00:18:42.524 and kids are more likely to stay out of poverty, 00:18:42.524 --> 00:18:44.508 graduate high school, graduate college, 00:18:44.508 --> 00:18:50.058 achieve these markers of, you know, just sort of basic markers of success, 00:18:50.058 --> 00:18:55.421 setting aside personal, you know, qualities that we want in our children. 00:18:55.421 --> 00:18:59.504 The Christina Cross New York Times, you know, piece 00:18:59.504 --> 00:19:03.635 that said the myth of the two-parent family, what she was arguing really is that— 00:19:03.635 --> 00:19:06.308 and she and I come to different conclusions— 00:19:06.308 --> 00:19:11.301 what she was arguing is that if you look at Black families, 00:19:11.301 --> 00:19:16.373 the benefit of marriage wouldn't be as great as for White families, 00:19:16.373 --> 00:19:19.306 and so she's like, “marriage doesn't solve our problems.” 00:19:19.306 --> 00:19:22.225 And here's how I think about this. 00:19:22.225 --> 00:19:25.341 And I've done extensive research on this 00:19:25.341 --> 00:19:29.541 and I've written academic paper, and I described this in the book. 00:19:29.541 --> 00:19:32.692 The way we should think about the benefits of marriage to a child 00:19:32.692 --> 00:19:36.484 depends on what the second parent would bring into the home. 00:19:36.484 --> 00:19:43.174 So if the second parent is not stably employed or has low income 00:19:43.174 --> 00:19:46.457 or isn't committed to the child, or in extreme situations, 00:19:46.457 --> 00:19:50.070 would be a harmful presence or an abusive presence, 00:19:50.070 --> 00:19:52.025 then there wouldn't be a benefit of marriage. 00:19:52.025 --> 00:19:56.958 But this doesn't mean that the decline in the two-parent home isn't a crisis 00:19:56.958 --> 00:19:58.983 for children and families in this country. 00:19:58.983 --> 00:20:03.519 It means that it's not as easy as just saying “more people should get married.” 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.640 It means we have to actually grapple with: 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:10.957 What is it that's keeping millions of parents or millions of adults who have kids together 00:20:10.957 --> 00:20:12.289 from getting married. 00:20:12.289 --> 00:20:16.274 What is it that's keeping millions of dads from being committed to their families. 00:20:16.274 --> 00:20:20.371 It just it makes us look at root causes of the problem, 00:20:20.371 --> 00:20:25.190 it doesn't mean there's not a problem or that two-parent homes aren't beneficial. 00:20:25.190 --> 00:20:28.740 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, and I remember looking at Cross's argument, 00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:33.054 and you look at yes, there are differences between Black families and White families; 00:20:33.054 --> 00:20:44.406 and yet the data show that just again, averages, it is better in America to be 00:20:44.406 --> 00:20:46.090 (I mean, if you were to predict adult outcomes) 00:20:46.090 --> 00:20:49.116 to be a Black child raised by two parents, 00:20:49.116 --> 00:20:52.292 than to be a White child raised in a one-parent home. 00:20:52.292 --> 00:20:54.591 So, yes, there's still differences, but— 00:20:54.591 --> 00:20:58.608 and marriage, of course, doesn't solve all problems. 00:20:58.608 --> 00:21:01.725 I don't know who would argue that marriage is going to solve all those problems. 00:21:01.725 --> 00:21:06.204 But on the whole, all other things, it's an advantage. 00:21:06.204 --> 00:21:09.424 Melissa, you write about this in the book, 00:21:09.424 --> 00:21:12.207 and you go through different options and theories, 00:21:12.207 --> 00:21:14.251 and, you know, like a good economist, 00:21:14.251 --> 00:21:17.522 you have to say, “Well, it could be this, and it could be that. 00:21:17.522 --> 00:21:18.834 We can't finally determine.” 00:21:18.834 --> 00:21:23.908 But where do you think, in particular, this class divide goes? 00:21:23.908 --> 00:21:27.784 So, you know, ten years ago in Charles Murray's book, “Coming Apart,” 00:21:27.784 --> 00:21:30.237 where he has, you know, fictional Fishtown in Belmont, 00:21:30.237 --> 00:21:32.516 and sort of, you know, in Belmont, 00:21:32.516 --> 00:21:37.858 the upper middle class are living one way, and in Fishtown, another way. 00:21:37.858 --> 00:21:41.757 And one of the ironies he says is, 00:21:41.757 --> 00:21:46.105 the people in this Belmont are giving their stated views of one thing. 00:21:46.105 --> 00:21:48.905 Like, it doesn't matter, and yet the way they're living 00:21:48.905 --> 00:21:52.369 shows a different kind of value system: 00:21:52.369 --> 00:21:58.381 that “graduate school, get married, then have your children,” 00:21:58.381 --> 00:22:03.635 which you know, lots of studies show, you do those things in that order. 00:22:03.635 --> 00:22:10.755 And the chances of you being in poverty in this country are very small. 00:22:10.755 --> 00:22:16.131 So how, where did the very stark division— 00:22:16.131 --> 00:22:17.415 Because it wasn't like this you show. 00:22:17.415 --> 00:22:20.336 I mean, it wasn't like this in 1960 that there was such a division 00:22:20.336 --> 00:22:23.956 between, you know, “the Haves” and “the Have Nots” 00:22:23.956 --> 00:22:27.703 getting even wider apart on their very marital formation. 00:22:27.703 --> 00:22:29.038 How did we get here? 00:22:29.038 --> 00:22:34.431 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah, so this has really-- this class gap in family structure 00:22:34.431 --> 00:22:39.801 and the share of kids being raised in two-parent homes 00:22:39.801 --> 00:22:40.670 has emerged over the past 40 years. 00:22:40.670 --> 00:22:42.984 And frankly, this is why anybody who professes to be 00:22:42.984 --> 00:22:46.972 concerned about income inequality or the erosion of social mobility 00:22:46.972 --> 00:22:49.037 needs to contend with this 00:22:49.037 --> 00:22:54.804 because two-parent homes are very protective of children, 00:22:54.804 --> 00:22:56.905 and they really increase, you know, 00:22:56.905 --> 00:23:00.738 kids’ likelihood of hitting all of these markers of success. 00:23:00.738 --> 00:23:01.870 And so, what happened? 00:23:01.870 --> 00:23:05.373 Well, here's the broad stroke of the story I tell 00:23:05.373 --> 00:23:10.633 based on my reading of all the data and relevant evidence, 00:23:10.633 --> 00:23:13.073 which is, we had a social cultural revolution in the ‘60s and ‘70s, 00:23:13.073 --> 00:23:17.953 changed our expectations for marriage, social norms around gender roles. 00:23:17.953 --> 00:23:23.603 It eroded, a bit, the social convention 00:23:23.603 --> 00:23:23.967 of needing to be married to have kids together, okay? 00:23:23.967 --> 00:23:26.369 And what we saw in the ‘60s and ‘70s 00:23:26.369 --> 00:23:29.067 was a reduction in marriage sort of across the board, 00:23:29.067 --> 00:23:32.586 even proportion across adults of different education levels. 00:23:32.586 --> 00:23:37.006 In the ‘80s and ‘90s, things diverged quite starkly 00:23:37.006 --> 00:23:44.188 such that the decline in marriage stalled, stopped declining among adults, 00:23:44.188 --> 00:23:46.852 went men and women with a four-year college degree. 00:23:46.852 --> 00:23:50.387 So their rates of marriage have barely declined in 40 years, 00:23:50.387 --> 00:23:56.098 and we see that the share of kids being raised in a married-parent home, 00:23:56.098 --> 00:23:58.507 if they're born to a mom with a four-year college degree, 00:23:58.507 --> 00:24:05.866 that's decreased over this 40-year period by only six percentage points, from 90% to 84%. 00:24:05.866 --> 00:24:07.154 It's a very small decrease 00:24:07.154 --> 00:24:11.031 when you realize how much bigger and more diverse that group is. 00:24:11.031 --> 00:24:13.637 So now about 30% of moms have a four-year college degree 00:24:13.637 --> 00:24:21.452 as compared to only about 11%, 00:24:21.452 --> 00:24:23.099 and yet still, raising your kids in a married-parent home 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:23.747 is holding steady among that class. 00:24:23.747 --> 00:24:24.669 But in the ‘80s and ‘90s, 00:24:24.669 --> 00:24:26.854 we saw that the share of kids being raised in a married parent home, 00:24:26.854 --> 00:24:30.756 not just for the most educationally disadvantaged adults 00:24:30.756 --> 00:24:32.237 without a high school degree, 00:24:32.237 --> 00:24:36.338 but really interestingly, and I think underappreciated in the middle. 00:24:36.338 --> 00:24:40.113 So moms with a high school degree or some college, 00:24:40.113 --> 00:24:43.987 we might have considered them sort of the middle class, right? 00:24:43.987 --> 00:24:48.389 The likelihood that their kids are being raised in a married-parent home 00:24:48.389 --> 00:24:51.979 fell from 83% to 60%. 00:24:51.979 --> 00:24:54.579 That is a massive drop in 40 years. 00:24:54.579 --> 00:24:56.939 So now, where are we in 2020? 00:24:56.939 --> 00:25:02.994 You know, we've got this really large, very obvious class divergence. 00:25:02.994 --> 00:25:04.828 I think part of this is driven 00:25:04.828 --> 00:25:11.605 by the economic challenges facing non–college-educated men in particular, 00:25:11.605 --> 00:25:13.559 over the ‘80s, ‘90s and early 2000s. 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:14.810 We have a lot of research from economics 00:25:14.810 --> 00:25:17.680 showing that secular global changes 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:22.640 think, you know, increased import competition from abroad; 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.929 think, the adoption of technologies and industrial robots 00:25:26.929 --> 00:25:30.810 that pushed-- sort of both of those trends 00:25:30.810 --> 00:25:36.021 pushed non–college-educated men out of well-paying middle-class jobs, 00:25:36.021 --> 00:25:38.612 either out of the workforce or into lower paying jobs; 00:25:38.612 --> 00:25:43.259 think, the erosion of unions and other sort of wage-supporting institutions. 00:25:43.259 --> 00:25:46.877 Basically, all of these trends were unkind to non–college-educated workers, 00:25:46.877 --> 00:25:48.461 which, in an economic sense, 00:25:48.461 --> 00:25:58.235 made them less attractive or necessary as marriage partners to the extent 00:25:58.235 --> 00:26:00.478 that one of the things husbands do is bring financial resources to a home. 00:26:00.478 --> 00:26:03.114 And so that's, I think, part of the story. 00:26:03.114 --> 00:26:07.116 But then you've got this, you know, cyclical effect 00:26:07.116 --> 00:26:12.702 where the economics make the institution of marriage less attractive or necessary 00:26:12.702 --> 00:26:16.132 because women outside the college-educated class 00:26:16.132 --> 00:26:17.699 are doing better compared to men, right? 00:26:17.699 --> 00:26:20.829 So they're more likely to be able to do it on their own, 00:26:20.829 --> 00:26:23.185 and he's less likely to be a stable provider. 00:26:23.185 --> 00:26:26.584 So you've got this confluence events, and that changes the social norm 00:26:26.584 --> 00:26:28.419 because now, more and more people in your community, 00:26:28.419 --> 00:26:32.302 having and raising their kids outside a two-parent home, 00:26:32.302 --> 00:26:36.278 and then these things amplify each other. 00:26:36.278 --> 00:26:37.850 So you've got economics and social changes amplifying each other. 00:26:37.850 --> 00:26:41.783 And that's why this is a cycle that really needs to be broken. 00:26:41.783 --> 00:26:44.634 >>[DEYOUNG] So I want to come back to those numbers in just a second. 00:26:44.634 --> 00:26:50.153 I need to just mention our irst sponsor, Crossway Books. 00:26:50.153 --> 00:26:52.352 Thank you for sponsoring Life & Books & Everything. 00:26:52.352 --> 00:26:57.520 And today, I want to mention their New Testament theology series. 00:26:57.520 --> 00:27:00.619 Here's one of the volumes [singsong as he shows the book] 00:27:00.619 --> 00:27:03.353 on 2nd Corinthians by Dane Ortlund. 00:27:03.353 --> 00:27:07.182 So thank you to Crossway for sponsoring LBE 00:27:07.182 --> 00:27:09.786 and check out their good books and that new series. 00:27:09.786 --> 00:27:11.821 Uh, Melissa, I want to just underscore, 00:27:11.821 --> 00:27:16.153 you have this nice chart, these numbers you just gave here on the book. 00:27:16.153 --> 00:27:20.613 So just to say, because this is really important, and you just said this. 00:27:20.613 --> 00:27:25.153 So four-year college. This is in 1980. 00:27:25.153 --> 00:27:30.420 So 90% of children living with married parents, 00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:35.619 high school or college in 1980: 83%; less than high school: 80%. 00:27:35.619 --> 00:27:41.067 So that's a really tight— Back in 1980, you know, 80-90%. 00:27:41.067 --> 00:27:43.703 So whether you had high school, some high school, college, 00:27:43.703 --> 00:27:45.604 you're roughly the same. 00:27:45.604 --> 00:27:48.419 In statistical terms, it's pretty close. 00:27:48.419 --> 00:27:52.663 And then, I mean, you just show how four-year college declines a little bit. 00:27:52.663 --> 00:27:58.029 But these other 83[%] to 60[%], 00:27:58.029 --> 00:28:02.686 from 80% to 57% is a major decline among those less educated. 00:28:02.686 --> 00:28:05.585 And you've talked about some of the reasons why that may be 00:28:05.585 --> 00:28:11.684 and about the “marriageable man” thesis. 00:28:11.684 --> 00:28:13.268 And so you hit on that there. 00:28:13.268 --> 00:28:17.983 I want to ask the question. So maybe it's twofold. 00:28:17.983 --> 00:28:23.783 The women -- because almost all of these single-parent households 00:28:23.783 --> 00:28:27.645 are headed by women -- Is it in the case 00:28:27.645 --> 00:28:34.752 that they're looking to get married and they just can't find the right guy? 00:28:34.752 --> 00:28:38.951 Or is it the case that the norms are such 00:28:38.951 --> 00:28:42.699 that marriage just isn't something that they think of. 00:28:42.699 --> 00:28:46.283 And then, you know, follow up is, is there anything we can do about that? 00:28:46.283 --> 00:28:47.985 I'm reminded of a quip… 00:28:47.985 --> 00:28:52.099 I wrote an article last year for "First Things," 00:28:52.099 --> 00:28:55.370 which is a Catholic journal about declining fertility rates, 00:28:55.370 --> 00:28:58.684 and I looked at all of the things they've tried to do in Japan and other places 00:28:58.684 --> 00:29:01.832 which have had almost no effect on increasing fertility, 00:29:01.832 --> 00:29:03.833 and somebody had this line, you know, 00:29:03.833 --> 00:29:09.049 “Government programs can help you maybe encourage you to have the kids you want, 00:29:09.049 --> 00:29:12.244 but they won't convince you to have the kids you don't want.” 00:29:12.244 --> 00:29:16.334 And it’s maybe sort of the same with marriage. 00:29:16.334 --> 00:29:17.652 There are some policy things. 00:29:17.652 --> 00:29:20.384 If you want to get married, they can help it. 00:29:20.384 --> 00:29:25.419 But if you're not looking for that, what can we do? 00:29:25.419 --> 00:29:29.351 >>[KEARNEY] This is a really important point, 00:29:29.351 --> 00:29:32.448 which is that there does not seem to be evidence 00:29:32.448 --> 00:29:39.217 that people in the U.S. have whole-scale rejected the institution of marriage. 00:29:39.217 --> 00:29:40.164 I know there are some groups 00:29:40.164 --> 00:29:42.902 that essentially say marriage is a patriarchal institution, 00:29:42.902 --> 00:29:46.851 and it's not compatible with modern day feminism. 00:29:46.851 --> 00:29:48.927 And so, of course, you're going to have a reduction in marriage. 00:29:48.927 --> 00:29:51.301 And let me just say before I go further on this 00:29:51.301 --> 00:29:55.517 that let's keep coming back to the fact that college-educated women, 00:29:55.517 --> 00:30:01.253 the most economically successful women perhaps in the history of, like, the world. 00:30:01.253 --> 00:30:08.398 We're still getting married and raising our kids in married- parent homes. 00:30:08.398 --> 00:30:09.717 So I reject the proposition that marriage is inherently at odds 00:30:09.717 --> 00:30:16.668 with any feminist view of women's economic participation or success. 00:30:16.668 --> 00:30:18.617 So then it's the question of: 00:30:18.617 --> 00:30:24.736 “Well, why has marriage fallen out of favor outside the college-educated class?” 00:30:24.736 --> 00:30:28.817 And when you look at the ethnographic evidence 00:30:28.817 --> 00:30:33.214 and the qualitative surveys of low-income couples, 00:30:33.214 --> 00:30:35.343 unmarried couples who avail themselves 00:30:35.343 --> 00:30:37.368 of some of the government programs 00:30:37.368 --> 00:30:40.778 or government-funded programs, their community-offered programs 00:30:40.778 --> 00:30:44.526 that work with unmarried parents trying to strengthen families, 00:30:44.526 --> 00:30:48.847 what you see in those interviews and those qualitative studies 00:30:48.847 --> 00:30:52.068 is that a lot of these couples say they want to be together. 00:30:52.068 --> 00:30:55.252 And we saw this in the “Fragile Family” survey, too, right? 00:30:55.252 --> 00:30:57.068 They say they want to be together, they plan to be together. 00:30:57.068 --> 00:31:01.493 And then for a whole variety of reasons, they can't make that work. 00:31:01.493 --> 00:31:07.233 This too should really affect our willingness to grapple with this as an equity issue. 00:31:07.233 --> 00:31:11.752 If you've got high income couples, highly educated couples 00:31:11.752 --> 00:31:13.731 who are managing to achieve 00:31:13.731 --> 00:31:18.368 and make this very advantageous structure work for them, 00:31:18.368 --> 00:31:19.934 shouldn't we want more people 00:31:19.934 --> 00:31:23.427 who say they WANT to be able to have a two-parent home 00:31:23.427 --> 00:31:25.215 and a happy, healthy marriage, 00:31:25.215 --> 00:31:26.760 shouldn't we help them achieve it, 00:31:26.760 --> 00:31:30.365 even if they can't pay for high-priced marriage counseling or whatever? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 What do you see? There are real barriers? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There's economic instability 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that makes someone either less willing to commit to taking care of a family 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or makes, you know, the mother of his children 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 less likely to accept him as a resident dad. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] You see substance abuse, you see mental health challenges. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You see a lot of these adults grew up in homes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that weren't characterized by stable, healthy marriages, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 growing up in communities where their friends and cousins and other role models 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are not raising their kids in this way. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So here's an opportunity for community groups and for public funding 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and philanthropic groups and for church groups to say: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “What can we do to help strengthen families 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to meet them where they are and help make them stronger?” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 At the same time, creating a social convention and expectation 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 among children being raised and teenagers now 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that this is something to strive for. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 This will make your household more economically viable. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It will confer benefits to your children. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So it's both meeting families where they are now. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But I think, setting our sights on: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “What do we want to accomplish going forward and how do we get there? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] That's great. And really helpful. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You have a great chapter on boys and dads, and I'm going to ask you a question, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 not so much as an economist (so you know, if you want to answer it or not) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but as a teacher and as a professor, and maybe the sort of students that are coming to University of Maryland 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are so self-selecting of such a high elite caliber that you wouldn't see this. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But I just wonder in your years of teaching, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 there's lots of social science research on the ways that boys are falling behind. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we can even say anecdotally, young men are drawn to online influencers, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 some of whom you are sort of helpful, some of whom are really unhelpful. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I just wonder, have you sensed something? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, you work with young people of different ages. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Have you sensed in, you know, the last generation 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that there are more challenges or more anxiety, despondency? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 What are you, sort of on the ground, sense? And in particular, about boys and men? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] I think the single biggest thing that gets me down as a professor, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and, you know, I've been working with the young adults now for almost 20 years. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There really is, you just see it, just a widespread anxiety among them 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (men and women alike) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that I just I don't I don't think-- I certainly didn't notice it 20 years ago. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Now, I'm very aware of the fact that I've been a parent. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so now I see these 20-year-olds. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Is like closer and closer to my own children. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. Uh-huh. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] But the amount of kids, I mean, KIDS, right? They're young adults. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They’re like 18 to 22 who come to my office. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Often--Like you know, young men, too, I'll call them in, and I'll say, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “What happened? happened on the test,” right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Like, what happened? Do you come to class? Like, what?” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And they're big guys, and they have their hoodie up, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and they look like they don't care. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] And then they'll start crying. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And they'll be like-- You know, I'm not I'm not making this up, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And all of these anecdotes are part of the reason 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 why I felt so like I had to write this book, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 even though I don't tell these anecdotes in the book. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They'll be like, you know, “My parents just announced they're getting divorced. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I think they thought it was okay because we're at college now, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I'm having a tough semester.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Or you know, “My grandma raised me, and it was just me and my grandma 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and my grandma died, and I'm having a tough semester.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Or “I can't figure out what I'm going to do with the rest of my life, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I'm really stressed 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I'm supposed to be interviewing for jobs, and I just don't know.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And just the amount of sadness and anxiety among young people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who have their whole lives ahead of them. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Right? I think just should be filled with energy. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I don't want to overtell this story 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because there is something that's also really energizing among young people. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But I just, I worry about them. I do. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I worry about them, and I wish as adults, we could do more to make them feel 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 comfortable and confident and safe and secure, and, like, it's okay. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Do you think boys in particular are wondering-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Well, I suppose, men and women, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but you know, you talk about the incredible importance of dads. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And, you know, that wonderful story about the dad (was it in Louisiana?) 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who showed up at school, and gang participation plummeted. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And even some of the metrics you give with— It even seems that boys in the home 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 are more affected by the lack of a father than girls are. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I mean, again, this comes out of really rigorous econometric studies. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We see that the gender gap favoring girls 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (meaning girls are now less likely to get in trouble at school; 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they've always been, but that gap has widened). 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They're more likely to graduate high school. They're more likely to go to college. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Again, girls are more likely to hit all these markers of success. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 This has been happening over the same decade that we've had a tremendous rise 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in the share of kids growing up without dads in their home. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And researchers, economists have worked very hard 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to establish a causal link here showing that that gender gap that favors girls 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 is wider among kids coming from mother- only homes than two-parent homes. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And then economists have gone further and looked at the mechanisms 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and shown that the absence of additional parental inputs, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 meaning time nurturing parenting that kids from single-parent homes get. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Again, not because single moms aren't great parents. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's because they don't have a second parent in the house to help, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] My wife is always saying, “I don't know how I would do this.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I certainly don't know how I would do it. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] So this isn't to impugn single moms. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Again, it's to say that there are more parenting resources in two-parent homes, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and we see that lower level of parenting inputs and nurturing parenthood 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 has a large, larger effect on the behaviors and outcomes of boys. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I want to be careful because I don't think we should erroneously conclude from that 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that girls aren't necessarily struggling. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But girls might be struggling in different ways. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Whereas boys, again, we know on average are more likely to express their struggles 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 by acting out in ways that are going to get them suspended, in trouble with the law, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 all sorts of things that could really impede their educational and economic— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] They have outward aggressive, noticeable, public 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Again, on average, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh huh. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] And so that's bad for them. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 This, too, is why this is SO important to intervene. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, from all angles and break this 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because let's get back to why we think there's a reduction 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in marriage outside the college-educated class. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Men are either viewing themselves 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 as less likely to be stable, good providers for family. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Women are less likely to view them that way. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Then you have millions of boys being raised without dads in their house. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 That actually makes them less likely 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to be in a position to be, you know, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 stably employed, emotionally stable, supportive husbands and fathers. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And this gets back to something else you brought up with. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Well, the elite class is raising their kids in this way. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And frankly, it's I mean, not only does it reject the overwhelming evidence and data 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 showing that kids benefit from having dads in their homes, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but it's extraordinarily elitist and obnoxious, quite frankly, to say: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “No, my kid benefits from having me in the home because I'm a great guy 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I can read to them and really equip them.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But do we really expect the, you know, 40% of kids who are born to less-educated dads 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to benefit from their fathers? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, “Let's give up on those guys 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and just assume a government program is going to make up for them”? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I just I refuse to resign ourselves to that view of society. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but there is a level of self-aggrandizement. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Of course, I'm valuable. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I wouldn't want my kids to be without, because I'm a very special parent.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Well, we're all probably all probably capable of being better parents than we think, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and we're probably less special than we think at the same time. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Kevin, this is analogous to the conversation about college. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we know that people with a college degree do better in the labor market. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And there's a push to try and get more people through college, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We have lots of policy interventions aimed at doing that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But there's a group of people that says, “Well, not everybody needs college.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And the critics of that view always say, “But ask them if they're sending THEIR kid to college.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yes. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] It’s a similar thing. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, “Well, YOU don't need two parents, and your kid doesn't go to college. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But by the way, I'm going to shower two parents’ worth of resources on my kid 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and make sure they go to a four-year college.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, I wonder-- I would love to-- I mean, if you're willing, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 how does this affect how you are as a mom? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 If your kids are anything like my kids, they are not going to read your book. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY laughs] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Maybe your kids are really high over achievers, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But I've written some stuff, and I try to gift it. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “No, I'm not interested in it.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But this is informing and is shaped by and probably downstream in some ways 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 from your own parenting. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 What sort of messages, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 given the expertise you have in this area, are you trying to give to your own kids? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] To be overt, I am very aware of the fact that my kids are growing up, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 not only in a two-parent household themselves, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but surrounded by people who are being raised in two-parent household-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Which is huge. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>KEARNEY] because that's what it looks like in, you know, sort of well-off community, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which is where we live. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, I'm very open about the fact 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that I recognize my kids are being raised in a very privileged setting. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so it's you know, kids absorb what they see around them. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And again, we know this from evidence, even though it also is incredibly intuitive 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that kids’ world view is shaped by what they experience. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so I mean, I probably should talk about it more explicitly, let's say, with my kids, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I don't really worry that my daughters are thinking 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that maybe they would become young unmarried mothers. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 That's-- I mean, I'm not foolish to think that things don't happen. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, for sure. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >[KEARNEY] But that's not really something 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they observe very often in the people around them that they're being raised with, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so they just sort of, by default, expect that they're going to go to college. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And also, you know, interesting for me as a mom, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they see me and my sisters all working and having careers. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I assume that that affects the way they think of it. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Now, my daughters also think I work too much, and they don't want to work as much… 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG chuckles] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >[KEARNEY] …which is also fair, right? Like they’re definitely-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But that was something actually, I grew up in a different generation than my mom, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 where I assumed I was going to work and have a career, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but then, thinking of my own mom, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but I also assumed I was going to have kids and be a really involved mom 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and there was some conflict there. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So I think about that a lot, you know, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 how our kids see us and our communities affect what the aspirations… 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Absolutely. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] …you know, they have for themselves. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] So, maybe that's a good transition 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to sort of a last line of questioning. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I do want to— Let's see. I’ll mention one other sponsor, Desiring God, new book: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Foundations for Lifelong Learning, Education, and Serious Joy” by John Piper, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 available next week when this is recorded. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So check that out. Always great to see what John is writing there 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 about education and serious joy. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Thank you to Desiring God. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 That's a great transition because you used a phrase a number of times in the book, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and this is really what you're talking about, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “social norms” because there are lots of things as an economist, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you think about different policies, and those things do matter. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They're not irrelevant. They can nudge people. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 They can make certain decisions more or less likely or palatable. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But then you have this big bucket Of, well, social norms. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 One of the things I underlined throughout the book 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that you would often mention as a kind of aside, you'd say, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Well, Asian families are the exception to this.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And I couldn't help but say, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Well, there are some very strong social norms, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that's not just a stereotype.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, there's data to support that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Very strong social norms about marriage, about education, about all these things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So is there a possibility to affect social norms? How do we go about it? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Because it seems like the biggest thing— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We can do lots of things around the edges to try to help push people 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in the right direction for the well-being of society and their families and kids. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And yet, social norms are very— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There's no program to change a community’s social norms. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] This is why this is a hard issue for like economists and policy wonks 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Because, like you said, we could do all sorts of tinkering around the edges. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I can propose (and I have proposed) changes to the tax code 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that would be less punishing, frankly, of marriage. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There are definitely tinkering policy things— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] If you get more tax breaks for having kids. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I have nine kids, so I welcome as many as you can get. [chuckles] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I'm all for an expanded child tax credit. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm all for a child allowance. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm certainly for what I've referred to as a secondary earner tax deduction 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so that we don't penalize married couples or two workers when they get married. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We have all sorts of ways we could tinker around the edges, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and I think those will, you know, l 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 ike you said, nudge some people and have incremental effects. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But really turning this around is going to require a change in social conventions, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and now you're moving further and further away from the economist policy tool kit. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But again, you know, some critics are like: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Oh, she tells us this big problem and then there's no real solutions.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But in some sense, one of the things I'm trying to accomplish with this book is, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Here, I know there's a problem… 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Right. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] …Now, all of you who do things more than just tinker with the tax code, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 let's address this together.” This is-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] This is pastors and communities and other, yeah-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] There are things we could do. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Now, that's on the one hand. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 On the other hand, (because I am an economist, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that's how we do things: “on the one hand, on the other hand”), 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Social norms are surprisingly malleable, and they can also change very quickly. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we have, again, good social science evidence 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 showing that things like role models matters (we were just discussing); 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 things like media messaging matters. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Let me give you a couple examples. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Eliana La Ferrara and her colleagues 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 have shown that in Brazil, when soap operas came on TV— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this is sort of amazing-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 using variation in where they were viewed at different timing, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 they document a causal link, exposure to the smaller families and divorce on— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you know, like in those communities that saw those media images, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that led to a change in family formation, an increase in divorce, fewer kids. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like people responded by emulating what they saw on TV. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In a very different setting, my colleague Phil Levin and I looked at what happened 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 when the “16 and Pregnant” and “Teen Mom” franchise came on MTV 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, talk about that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 That was a really interesting point of the book. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] This is crazy. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 All of a sudden, one year, teen childbearing in the U.S. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 went down by way more than it had been falling. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So teen childbearing had been falling in the U.S. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And then one year, there was a really large drop. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we had studied this issue 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 enough to know [that] it wasn't the unemployment rate. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It wasn't sex ed. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 What could this be? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It turns out that when this show came on TV, which millions of teenagers watched, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it was a pretty realistic depiction of how unglamorous it was to be pregnant at 16, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] “16 and Pregnant” is the MTV show. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] “16 and Pregnant.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so we had an R.A. [research assistant?] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 watch all the shows and code up what happens. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Well, what happens? Most of the boyfriends don't stick around. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Most of these young girls are stuck with a crying baby in the middle of the night. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Like, you might have thought that people would know being a teen mom was hard, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but apparently, this was really salient. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And in those communities 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 where more people were watching MTV before this show even came on 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 (so MTV just had more market penetration in certain areas). 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 When this show came on the air, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 you saw a larger reduction in teen childbearing in those places. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so the idea here is: Gosh, this show really changed hearts and minds 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in ways that affected behaviors that affected birth rates. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so we got access to Google and Twitter data, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and you see that when these episodes aired, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 there would be a spike in Google searching for how to get birth control. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There would be a spike in tweets mentioning this show and birth control. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So there was this idea that people saw this show 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and decided they didn't want to become pregnant as a teenager. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Which again, it's just really amazing because it validates this idea 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that exposure to content and ideas affects people's attitudes 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 in ways that affects their behaviors, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 even in the really complicated domains of marriage, family formation, and having kids. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] It was really fascinating. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I've heard of the show. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I can't say I've watched it before or that we have a lot of MTV on. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But yeah, I mean, you did the homework 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to show there's probably some connection there. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You say at the end of the book: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Here are things we should do to address the challenges I've laid out, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and then some things I do not think we should do.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And these are good. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But I want to highlight two because I just wonder: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 How do we do both of these things? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So here's what you say we should do: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Work to restore and foster a norm of two-parent homes for children.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Good. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Here's one thing we should not do: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Stigmatize single mothers or encourage unhealthy marriages.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So I agree with both of those things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Here's what I wrestle with a lot, and I wrestle with it as a pastor 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and it’s stigma. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So we think of stigma as universally a bad thing, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and yet we want to stigmatize racism or all sorts of things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There are bad behaviors that our culture and our communities do a lot to say: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “That's a bad thing to do.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So I think as a pastor-- and I don't know what your views are on this. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm not presuming that you share these personal views. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But, I believe the Bible says that sex before marriage is wrong, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but also the Bible says you can be forgiven for that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And it's not the end of your life. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so, on the one hand, I think about our church community, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which has a pretty thick culture 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and what you described, you know, your neighborhood, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 there are certain norms. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 There are certain things that it just looks normal to have a mom and a dad. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It looks normal to work hard at school. It looks normal to not do drugs. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [It looks normal] to pursue education. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 All of these things are good. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And so there would be if somebody in our church, you know, was 16 and pregnant, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it would raise eyebrows and there'd be something of a stigma. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So on the one hand, I wanna say— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] But also hope you guys would love her and embrace her 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and pay for her diapers and-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yes, absolutely. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So what I'm getting to is: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 How do we do it so that the behavior, like in our case, would be stigmatized, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but the person is not cast off. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And in fact, somebody said, this really just helped open my eyes. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Of course, I should-- You know, it's not even out-of-wedlock births. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, we should, from my perspective, applaud the mom who is going through 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and having the child and working to, you know, sacrifice so much. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We want to applaud that decision, I do. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So it's always this push and pull of how to establish norms, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 because norms say something is normal. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But then when something is outside of that normal, as you were right to interject, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 yeah, I want our community to love that mom and sign up for meals, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which I know they would and buy diapers and do all of that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 How do you think about that as an economist 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 or even just as a mom or as— 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] As a person? [chuckles] 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, I think you completely put your finger 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 on probably the hardest needle I'm trying to thread 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 by saying those two things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And somebody said directly to me, like, “We DO need to bring back shame.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But there's, you know, there's a role for it. So here's what I mean when I say that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'll give you examples of things on those two points-- 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hmm. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] that I would and wouldn’t do. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So the stigma of single moms and their kids that basically in the past, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 made them outcast from society, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 let's all agree we should never go back to that, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 We do not want women feeling like they're trapped in abusive marriages, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And we do not want children and their single parents 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to be even more deprived of resources 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 by punishing them for where they are. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] You're 18, and you get a second-class life for the rest of it. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah. And here you are. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So those are terribly counterproductive approaches that we should never go back to. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 At the same time, I mean, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I'm not going to totally point my finger at like Disney Plus or Netflix or Hollywood. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But you know, the television portrayal of families has gone so far to say: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Hey, it's totally fine.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You know, this one's being raised with her mom and her new boyfriend, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 but her old boyfriend is still they're all good friends and it's awesome. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 But that's, like, such a farce. That's not really what it looks like. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So let's be honest that, you know, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 we could accept and love all sorts of family arrangements, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 while still being honest about what is best for kids in particular. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And by the way, it's not great for single parents who tend to be under-resourced 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to be doing this by themselves. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So, the kinds of things about fostering norms, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for instance, a lot of the social service agencies or programs 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 for, you know, single moms and their kids, the dads will tell you this: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You go into those buildings, and the picture, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 like, the logo is basically a mom and her daughter, or a mom and her child. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] There's not even a dad in the picture, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, that’s a norm. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] And so these responsible fatherhood programs walk in, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and they're like, the dad isn't even in the picture. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 In an effort to being sort of welcoming of the reality 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that a lot of these programs serve single moms and their kids, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 there's not even an expectation of a dad being around. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And that kind of subtlety, I think matters, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So, I was even talking to a woman 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 who runs a program for lifting up single moms, and I said to her: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 “Well, you're part of the solution. You're working to strengthen families.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And she stopped, and very thoughtfully, she said, “But I've never thought to ask, where's the dad? Why isn't he around?” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And that's a bit of a mind shift, right? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 To say, let's think about strengthening families. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Let's talk about the importance of dads, how they can contribute 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 without stigmatizing the one parent and their child so strongly 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 that they feel like they're not enveloped in support. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Right, yeah, and I think you said earlier, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 this is going to happen at a personal level and community level. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I mean, I think of a number of women in our church who volunteer 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 with a Christian Young Lives program that reaches out 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and my younger daughters have volunteered to do some of the babysitting 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 so these single moms can get training, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and, you know, in our context, it’s Bible studies and other things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And there's lots of people who do care about these things. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And anybody listening who does, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 there are things and good programs that can make a difference and help with these. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So my last question for you. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Thank you so much for writing this book, Melissa. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 If any of my kids go to the University of Maryland, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 it's not on their list, but if they do, I'll tell them to take a class. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY, laughing] Great! 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] You're doing undergrads. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 What do you have coming up next? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 What are you working on? Academic books, popular books? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 What are you doing? 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Hopefully, you know, some of the negative feedback you're probably getting on this book 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 doesn't keep you away from it because it's really helpful. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] I appreciate that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I will say, because I wrapped up this manuscript, you know, some time ago 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 before it actually shows up in print. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] In COVID, I think. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Yeah. Over the past two years, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 I've been working a lot trying to understand the decline in fertility, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 which is another, you know, not uncontroversial topic. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] But again, there's a lot of economic causes and consequences 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 to the decline in fertility, and so that's another one 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 where setting aside all sorts of moral or value judgments 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 about how we think somebody should live their lives. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 The fact that in high income countries, we are now below replacement level, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 fertility is going to pose a lot of challenges on our economic and social structures. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Good. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] Studying that is, you know, what I've been thinking about. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Well, I will read that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY, laughing] Okay, great. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Glad for you to write that. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 It's really important. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Again, talking to Melissa, “The Two-Parent Privilege: 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.” 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Thank you so much for taking time 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 and working before we started this to get all the mics and headsets. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 And thank you to your husband. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[KEARNEY] It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 >>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, thank you. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 So thank you for listening to Life & Books & Everything, 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 a ministry of Clearly Reformed. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 You can get episodes like this and other resources at clearlyreformed.org 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 Until next time glorify God, enjoy him forever, read a good book. 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 ♪ [up-tempo closing music] ♪ 99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999 [END]