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The Two Parent Privilege with Melissa Kearney

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♪ [up-tempo opening music] ♪

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>>[KEVIN DEYOUNG, HOST] 
Greetings and salutations.

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Welcome back to “Life & Books & Everything.”

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I'm Kevin DeYoung, Senior Pastor

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at Christ Covenant Church 
in Matthews, North Carolina.

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And I am joined today 
by my special guest, Melissa Kearney.

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And we're going to talk about her new book 
called “The Two-Parent Privilege.”

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Melissa has a very august resume here.

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She's Professor of Economics 
at the University of Maryland;

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director of a number of 
different research groups;

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and a nonresident, 
senior fellow at Brookings;

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and a scholar in a number of different 
labs and affiliations and journals

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and lots of good academic work that she's done.

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She did her undergraduate at 
Princeton, PhD in Economics at MIT.

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Melissa, thank you for coming on 
here to talk about your new book.

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>>[MELISSA KEARNEY, GUEST] 
Happy to be here.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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>>[DEYOUNG] So this is a book about parents,

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and it's a book where you're using your 
expertise as a trained academic economist.

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But you also write personally.

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You say at the beginning and 
at the end, in particular,

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that you're a mom and an economist,
and that's in the correct order.

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That's what's most important.

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And you have three kids.
So tell us about your family.

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>>[KEARNEY] Okay. It's exactly right.
I'm a trained economist,

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but I think the greatest thing I do
is be a mom to my three kids,

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a boy and two girls, and I'm raising them
with my husband in suburban Maryland.

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>>[DEYOUNG] And how did you 
get to the University of Maryland?

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And are you a big “Terps” 
[Terrapins] sports fan?

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>>[KEARNEY, chuckling] I mean, 
I admit that I spend most of my time

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over in the economics department,

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but I do cheer for the Terps 
every now and then,

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and I'm delighted when they do well.

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I have been at the University 
of Maryland for 17 years now;

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moved down to DC from the Boston area 
probably 19 years ago;

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went to Brookings on a two-year fellowship, 
did some dedicated research there

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on topics that I've been working on
for over two decades

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(U.S. inequality, poverty, 
child and family well-being);

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and then took a tenure track job 
at Maryland where I've been ever since,

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and I enjoy teaching the undergrads there 
and training PhD students there

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and working as part of a really 
intellectually vibrant economics department.

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>>[DEYOUNG] 
And how did you get interested in this topic,

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which I know is part of broader interest.

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You just mentioned 
inequality and other things,

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but this area having to do 
with families and parents?

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>>[KEARNEY] Since I was an undergrad,

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I've really been interested in the economic 
and social lives of women and children.

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I really have sort of always had an interest

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in questions about how society works or 
doesn't work well for certain groups of people

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with a particular interest in less 
economically advantaged groups.

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And so those are the questions 
that brought me to economics, actually.

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Let me just say, because
a lot of people, I think,

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think about economics as finance 
or stock picking and that kind of thing,

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which is nothing to do with 
the kind of economics I do.

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You know, as an undergrad, I was interested 
in questions of society and public policy,

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took a bunch of those classes,

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but loved the sort of rigor and theory
and empirical work of economics.

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And so I used those tools of economics 
to ask these questions.

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How did I become interested 
in questions about women and families?

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I suppose it has to do with, you know,

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like many of us being interested in the 
world around us the way we grew up.

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And so it was, you know, 
I grew up in New Jersey in the ‘80s,

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very cognizant of the fact that I had 
educational opportunities,

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economic opportunities that my mom and 
my grandma and their sisters didn't have.

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And so were my grandma's sisters didn't have.

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And so those kinds of questions really 
were at the forefront of my mind.

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And then I spent a summer in college —

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this was really a very salient 
experience for me —

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I spent a summer in college

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working at a welfare-to-work center 
in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

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And you know, got to know and work with 
women who were my age at the time,

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probably between 17 and 22, 
and they were all moms receiving welfare,

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and they had to go to this training program 
in order to keep their benefits.

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But that summer just, you know, 
really sort of cemented my interest

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in thinking about how policies
and economic conditions

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affect the decisions and well-being 
of women and families.

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And so that's been 
a common thread of my research

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throughout my time as 
an academic economist.

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>>[DEYOUNG] So I'm not an expert 
in these things. I'm a pastor.

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My PhD is in history, 
but I like reading these things.

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And so I was interested to read not only you
citing Sarah McLanahan a number of times,

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but you had her at Princeton.

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So tell us about her influence,

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and anyone who's read in 
this area of marriage and family

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knows that she's done lots of really 
important empirical research.

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What role did she play in your
intellectual formation or interest in this?

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>>[KEARNEY] Sarah McClanahan 
really was a pioneer in this field.

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She created or launched what was called 
“The Fragile Family Survey”

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that you know, interviewed and collected data

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on unmarried parents at the time of their 
child's birth and tracked them over time.

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And so it's really a credit to Sarah McClanahan

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that we have as much information as we do

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on these particularly vulnerable families: 
unmarried parents, mostly low-income.

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And so she really trained 
a lot of students in this field.

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I am actually not— I don't consider 
myself a direct trainee of Sarah.

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She was a sociologist,

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but I did have the great fortune 
of taking her Sociology of Poverty class

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when I was an undergrad, 
even though I was an economics major.

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And it was in her class that I was really 
introduced to this topic of family structure

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as it relates to poverty and child well-being.

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I think that was really formative

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because economists sort of pose 
questions in different ways.

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And so my work as an economist 
over the past 20 plus years,

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looking at inequality and poverty

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has tended to focus on issues 
other than family structure.

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>>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hm.

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[KEARNEY] But I was, like, teed up to 
recognize the importance of that early on,

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having been exposed to Sarah McLanahan 
as a professor and her work from early on.

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And so, actually, that's sort of 
the confluence of those events,

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me being an economist, 
bringing an economist lens to the topic.

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But knowing Sarah McClanahan's work 
really well, I think has just kept me noticing.

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Every time there's a study on inequality,
social mobility, kids outcomes,

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you just see how important 
family structure is in the data.

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And so, I think, you know, it was she—

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knowing her work, having her teach me 
early on in my studies of these topics

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has just sort of heightened my awareness

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of the role of family structure in driving 
these kinds of economic outcomes.

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>>[DEYOUNG] Give you the lens to see 
what maybe other people haven't seen

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or didn't want to see.

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We'll get to that in a moment.
But let's jump into your book.

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So I'm talking to Melissa Kearney, 
“The Two-Parent Privilege:

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How Americans Stopped Getting 
Married and Started Falling Behind.”

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It just came out this fall, 
published by University of Chicago Press.

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So big-picture question, 
What is the “two-parent privilege”?

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[KEARNEY] The two-parent privilege, 
as I'm using the term, refers to the fact

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that having two parents in one's home 
confers a lot of advantages to children.

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This is VERY well established in the data
and in empirical research.

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The reason I call it a privilege is because 
not only is this a very advantageous situation,

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but increasingly in this country,

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this has become an advantageous situation

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enjoyed disproportionately 
by an already advantaged class.

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And so it's really now 
college-educated parents

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who continue to raise their kids in 
two-parent homes at very high rates.

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Meanwhile, over the past 40 years,

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the share of children being raised 
in two-parent households,

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among those who were born to parents
WITHOUT a four-year college degree

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has decreased by a really sizable amount 
and has just been a steady downward trend.

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And so now, having a two-parent 
family is yet another privilege

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of the already most privileged 
economic class in American society.

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>>[DEYOUNG] So this is how you put it.

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You have some great summaries 
at the end and at the beginning,

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but here's one in the preface.

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You say, I've studied U.S. poverty, 
inequality, family structure

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for almost a quarter of a century.

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I approached these issues as a hard-headed,
albeit soft-hearted MIT-trained economist.

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Based on the overwhelming evidence at hand, 
I can say with the utmost confidence

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that the decline in marriage and 
the corresponding rise in the share

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of children being raised in one-parent homes

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has contributed to the economic 
insecurity of American families;

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has widened gap in opportunities 
and outcomes

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for children from different backgrounds;

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and today poses economic 
and social challenges

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that we cannot afford to ignore, 
but may not be able to reverse.”

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I found a quotation just again, Sarah 
McClanahan and Isabel Sawhill say

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(this is the 2015 journal “Future of Children”)

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quote “Most scholars now agree

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that children raised by two biological 
parents in a stable marriage

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do better than children and other family 
forms across a wide range of outcomes.”

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I want to dive into the data 
that you give in just a moment,

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but back up a little bit and talk about
Why is this so hard to talk about?

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because it's very clear in reading your book

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that you're trying very hard 
to stick with the data

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and not to make moral value judgments.

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I'm a pastor, so I can't avoid, you know,
when I'm speaking from the Bible,

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making some value judgments 
that I think the Bible teaches.

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But that's obviously not what you're doing,
and you're studiously trying to avoid that.

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And yet, you talk at the beginning

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about how these conversations 
at academic conferences,

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“I'm an economist, much more comfortable
talking about earned income tax credit

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and other kind of policy.”

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And when you talk about, 
well, what about marriage?

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It's the proverbial lead balloon.

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What has your experience been?

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Why is even talking about this so difficult,

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probably, especially for someone 
like you in academic atmosphere?

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[KEARNEY, chuckling] That's right.

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So I have had plenty of people 
comment on my book.

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This isn't hard for ME to talk about.

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I talk about it with my church friends 
all the time.

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>>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. Right.

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[KEARNEY But in academic settings,

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it's difficult, and there's 
a lot of reasons here.

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I'm going to say most of them 
are very, very well intentioned,

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which is that most of us 
don't want to sound like

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we're blaming single mothers 
for their difficult circumstances…

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>>[DEYOUNG] Right.

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[KEARNEY] …and the relative disadvantage 
that their children suffers.

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And I mean, I certainly don't want 
to sound like I'm blaming mothers.

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But also very sincerely, I mean this.
I'm NOT blaming the single mothers.

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I'm recognizing that 
this is a challenging situation.

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Any of us who are parents would, I think,
readily recognize that parenting is difficult.

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Doing it by oneself is, you know, 
that much more difficult.

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So there's a genuine empathy there.

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But I think people get nervous about calling 
attention to the relative disadvantage

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that kids from single mother homes face

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because it sounds like we're blaming 
people who are in a very tough spot.

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>>[DEYOUNG] Right.

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[KEARNEY] Right? And I think we should 
be very capable of recognizing

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that single parents — the majority 
of whom are still single moms —

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single parents are in a very difficult spot, 
and that puts their kids in a difficult spot.

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And so we should be able to recognize that
and have an honest conversation about it.

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The other reason I think as academics,
as economists interested in policy,

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it becomes difficult for us to talk about

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is because we don't have a very good answer

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to the critical question of:
“Well, what do we do about it?”

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>>[DEYOUNG] Yes.

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>>[KEARNEY] Right? So if we talk instead

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about the fact that our tax code 
is not progressive enough

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or we're not raising enough revenue

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to cover expenses of things 
we feel like we might need to pay for,

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like more early childhood education 
or more public subsidies of childcare,

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it's pretty easy for us to sit in a room

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and come up with ways to make 
the tax code more progressive

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or design transfer programs 
to reach more people.

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It becomes a lot harder for us, 
and it takes us out of our real comfort zone

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when it comes to things like:

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How do we affect very personal 
decisions people are making

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about how to form their families 
and raise their children?

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>>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yeah.

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It's very personal, and it's almost impossible

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for any of us to talk about this or hear it
without thinking of how I grew up,

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how I'm raising my kids.

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Do I have kids, all these personal things? 
I think that's why it's so difficult.

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There was a survey.
I found these a couple years ago.

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It's an online survey, 
whatever they're worth.

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I don't know the scientific methodology here,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it said, more than 
70% of participants believed

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that a single parent can do 
just as good a job as two parents.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
60% of women (quote) “agreed that children
do best with multiple adults invested,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but two married parents 
are not necessary.”

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Christina Cross, a few years ago, 
in The New York Times,” had an article,
“The Myth of the Two-Parent Home.”

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And even as I say those, 
I feel myself wanting to say,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Uh, yeah, we're not just all the things
you just said, Melissa.”

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We’re not saying that, you know,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the single mom 
is to blame for all these problems,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, where's the dad?

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The dad is, you know, 
for any number of reasons —

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we're going to get to talking about 
boys and dads and just a bit —

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I think that just underscores those 
surveys for whatever they're worth.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I imagine people getting that phone call 
or online, being asked that question

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and thinking, “Well, I don't want to say

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that married couples 
are better than anyone else.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Of course. Any number of people.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And one of the myths — and I'd love 
for you to expound on this here —

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
one of the myths you talk about 
several times in the book,

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is that people have the idea,

248
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Well, sure, people aren't married

249
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and kids aren't being raised 
as much in married families.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But it's just kind of European style, 
laissez-faire relationships.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's the same thing.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's just people haven't gone through 
the formal structures of getting married.”

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is that true?

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Let me answer that

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then come back to address 
the earlier points that you made,

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
specifically about some of the reactions.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So that is completely NOT true, 
which is really important

258
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because, again, since I'm taking 
an economist lens to this issue,

259
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what really matters 
in the way I describe, frame, model,

260
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then empirically study marriage
is the resources coming into a household.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
TIME 16:09

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if you had two parents 
who were together the whole time

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
committed to sharing their resources, 
which is their income, their time,

264
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
their energy to raising kids together
throughout a kid's childhood,

265
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In my version (economic version) 
of this story, it shouldn't matter,

266
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but at a very practical level,

267
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's NOT what unmarried parents are doing.

268
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
40% of kids in this country are 
now born to unmarried parents.

269
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
52% of kids born to moms 
without a four-year college degree

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are born to unmarried parents.

271
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
70% of children born to Black moms
in this country, unmarried parents.

272
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
These parents aren't married 
at the time of the child's birth.

273
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And as a practical matter,

274
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
very few of them will be together 
cohabiting, raising their kids together

275
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by the time this child is 5 years old, 
let alone 14 years old.

276
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This is one of the things we see in the data

277
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that Sarah McClanahan collected 
with her colleagues.

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, at a practical level, marriage --

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then, you know, there's a whole bunch
of theories as to why this is true --

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but marriage just provides 
an institutional framework, essentially,

281
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that keeps parents together in this 
arrangement raising their kids together.

282
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so we can't be blasé about 
these really high number of kids

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99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
being raised in an unmarried-parent home, 
being born to unmarried parents,

284
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because, again, just very 
what does that mean, practically?

285
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It means that most of them 
will grow up in a one-parent home.

286
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Okay, let me talk specifically

287
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
just to respond to the reactions
or critics that you raise.

288
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, 70% of adults say it's fine for kids
to be raised in a single-mother home.

289
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, that could mean very many things.

290
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
First, of course, there are lots of children

291
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who are raised by single moms 
who do phenomenally well.

292
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And there are plenty of single moms 
who have enough income

293
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or, you know, a village around them 
such that they can raise their kids

294
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in ways that are enriching home environments,

295
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the kids can do very well.

296
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm focused on averages and large trends.

297
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so we can all recognize the heroic efforts

298
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that some single moms go to

299
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to make sure their kids are just 
as successful as anyone else's children.

300
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that doesn't mean that on average,

301
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
two parents in a home don't have 
an easier time than one parent.

302
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And again, what we see 
in the data very clearly

303
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that in a typical situation, two-parent 
homes deliver more benefits to kids

304
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and kids are more likely
to stay out of poverty,

305
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
graduate high school, graduate college,

306
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
achieve these markers of, you know, 
just sort of basic markers of success,

307
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
setting aside personal, you know, 
qualities that we want in our children.

308
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The Christina Cross 
New York Times, you know, piece

309
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that said the myth of the two-parent family, 
what she was arguing really is that—

310
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and she and I come to 
different conclusions—

311
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what she was arguing is that 
if you look at Black families,

312
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the benefit of marriage wouldn't 
be as great as for White families,

313
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and so she's like, “marriage 
doesn't solve our problems.”

314
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And here's how I think about this.

315
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I've done extensive research on this

316
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I've written academic paper, 
and I described this in the book.

317
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The way we should think about 
the benefits of marriage to a child

318
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
depends on what the second parent 
would bring into the home.

319
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if the second parent is not stably 
employed or has low income

320
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or isn't committed to the child, 
or in extreme situations,

321
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
would be a harmful presence
or an abusive presence,

322
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then there wouldn't be 
a benefit of marriage.

323
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But this doesn't mean that the decline 
in the two-parent home isn't a crisis

324
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for children and families in this country.

325
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It means that it's not as easy as just saying
“more people should get married.”

326
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It means we have to actually grapple with:

327
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What is it that's keeping millions of parents 
or millions of adults who have kids together

328
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from getting married.

329
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What is it that's keeping millions of dads 
from being committed to their families.

330
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It just it makes us look at 
root causes of the problem,

331
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it doesn't mean there's not a problem
or that two-parent homes aren't beneficial.

332
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
TIME 20:27

333
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right, and I remember 
looking at Cross's argument,

334
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you look at yes, there are differences 
between Black families and White families;

335
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and yet the data show that just again, 
averages, it is better in America to be

336
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(I mean, if you were 
to predict adult outcomes)

337
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be a Black child raised by two parents,

338
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than to be a White child 
raised in a one-parent home.

339
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, yes, there's still differences, but—

340
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and marriage, of course, 
doesn't solve all problems.

341
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't know who would argue that marriage
is going to solve all those problems.

342
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But on the whole, all other things,
it's an advantage.

343
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Melissa, you write about this in the book,

344
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you go through different
options and theories,

345
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and, you know, like a good economist,

346
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you have to say, “Well, it could 
be this, and it could be that.

347
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We can't finally determine.”

348
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But where do you think,
in particular, this class divide goes?

349
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, you know, ten years ago in 
Charles Murray's book, “Coming Apart,”

350
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where he has, you know, 
fictional Fishtown in Belmont,

351
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and sort of, you know, in Belmont,

352
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the upper middle class are living 
one way, and in Fishtown, another way.

353
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And one of the ironies he says is,

354
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the people in this Belmont are
giving their stated views of one thing.

355
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, it doesn't matter, 
and yet the way they're living

356
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
shows a different kind of value system:

357
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that “graduate school, get married, 
then have your children,”

358
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which you know, lots of studies show,
you do those things in that order.

359
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the chances of you being in poverty
in this country are very small.

360
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So how, where did the very stark division—

361
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because it wasn't like this you show.

362
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, it wasn't like this in 1960 
that there was such a division

363
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
between, you know, 
“the Haves” and “the Have Nots”

364
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
getting even wider apart 
on their very marital formation.

365
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How did we get here?

366
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Yeah, so this has really-- 
this class gap in family structure

367
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the share of kids 
being raised in two-parent homes

368
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has emerged over the past 40 years.

369
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And frankly, this is why 
anybody who professes to be

370
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
concerned about income inequality 
or the erosion of social mobility

371
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
needs to contend with this

372
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because two-parent homes 
are very protective of children,

373
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and they really increase, you know,

374
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kids’ likelihood of hitting all 
of these markers of success.

375
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, what happened?

376
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, here's the broad stroke of the story I tell

377
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
based on my reading of all 
the data and relevant evidence,

378
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is, we had a social cultural 
revolution in the ‘60s and ‘70s,

379
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
changed our expectations for marriage, 
social norms around gender roles.

380
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It eroded, a bit, the social convention

381
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of needing to be married 
to have kids together, okay?

382
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And what we saw in the ‘60s and ‘70s

383
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
was a reduction in marriage 
sort of across the board,

384
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even proportion across adults
of different education levels.

385
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In the ‘80s and ‘90s, things 
diverged quite starkly

386
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
such that the decline in marriage 
stalled, stopped declining among adults,

387
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
went men and women 
with a four-year college degree.

388
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So their rates of marriage 
have barely declined in 40 years,

389
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we see that the share of kids being 
raised in a married-parent home,

390
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if they're born to a mom with 
a four-year college degree,

391
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's decreased over this 40-year period by 
only six percentage points, from 90% to 84%.

392
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's a very small decrease

393
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when you realize how much bigger 
and more diverse that group is.

394
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So now about 30% of moms 
have a four-year college degree

395
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as compared to only about 11%,

396
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and yet still, raising your kids 
in a married-parent home

397
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is holding steady among that class.

398
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But in the ‘80s and ‘90s,

399
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we saw that the share of kids being 
raised in a married parent home,

400
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not just for the most educationally
disadvantaged adults

401
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
without a high school degree,

402
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but really interestingly, and I think 
underappreciated in the middle.

403
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So moms with a high school degree 
or some college,

404
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we might have considered them
sort of the middle class, right?

405
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The likelihood that their kids are 
being raised in a married-parent home

406
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
fell from 83% to 60%.

407
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That is a massive drop in 40 years.

408
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So now, where are we in 2020?

409
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, we've got this really large, 
very obvious class divergence.

410
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think part of this is driven

411
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by the economic challenges facing 
non–college-educated men in particular,

412
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
over the ‘80s, ‘90s and early 2000s.

413
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We have a lot of research from economics

414
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
showing that secular global changes

415
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
think, you know, increased 
import competition from abroad;

416
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
think, the adoption of technologies
and industrial robots

417
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that pushed-- sort of both of those trends

418
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
pushed non–college-educated men 
out of well-paying middle-class jobs,

419
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
either out of the workforce 
or into lower paying jobs;

420
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
think, the erosion of unions and other
sort of wage-supporting institutions.

421
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Basically, all of these trends were 
unkind to non–college-educated workers,

422
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which, in an economic sense,

423
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
made them less attractive or necessary 
as marriage partners to the extent

424
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that one of the things husbands do 
is bring financial resources to a home.

425
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so that's, I think, part of the story.

426
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But then you've got this, 
you know, cyclical effect

427
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where the economics make the institution 
of marriage less attractive or necessary

428
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because women outside 
the college-educated class

429
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are doing better compared to men, right?

430
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So they're more likely to be 
able to do it on their own,

431
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and he's less likely to be a stable provider.

432
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So you've got this confluence events,
and that changes the social norm

433
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because now, more and more 
people in your community,

434
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
having and raising their kids 
outside a two-parent home,

435
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then these things amplify each other.

436
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So you've got economics and social 
changes amplifying each other.

437
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that's why this is a cycle 
that really needs to be broken.

438
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
TIME 26:43

439
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] So I want to come back 
to those numbers in just a second.

440
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I need to just mention our 
irst sponsor, Crossway Books.

441
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you for sponsoring 
Life & Books & Everything.

442
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And today, I want to mention 
their New Testament theology series.

443
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Here's one of the volumes 
[singsong as he shows the book]

444
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on 2nd Corinthians by Dane Ortlund.

445
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So thank you to Crossway for sponsoring LBE

446
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and check out their good books
and that new series.

447
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Uh, Melissa, I want to just underscore,

448
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you have this nice chart, these numbers 
you just gave here on the book.

449
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So just to say, because this is really 
important, and you just said this.

450
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So four-year college. This is in 1980.

451
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So 90% of children living 
with married parents,

452
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
high school or college in 1980: 83%;
less than high school: 80%.

453
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So that's a really tight—
Back in 1980, you know, 80-90%.

454
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So whether you had high school, 
some high school, college,

455
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you're roughly the same.

456
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In statistical terms, it's pretty close.

457
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And then, I mean, you just show how
four-year college declines a little bit.

458
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But these other 83[%] to 60[%],

459
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from 80% to 57% is a major decline
among those less educated.

460
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And you've talked about some 
of the reasons why that may be

461
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and about the “marriageable man” thesis.

462
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so you hit on that there.

463
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I want to ask the question.
So maybe it's twofold.

464
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The women -- because almost all
of these single-parent households

465
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are headed by women -- Is it in the case

466
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that they're looking to get married
and they just can't find the right guy?

467
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or is it the case that the norms are such

468
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that marriage just isn't 
something that they think of.

469
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And then, you know, follow up is, 
is there anything we can do about that?

470
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm reminded of a quip…

471
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I wrote an article last year
for "First Things,"

472
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is a Catholic journal 
about declining fertility rates,

473
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I looked at all of the things they've 
tried to do in Japan and other places

474
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which have had almost no effect 
on increasing fertility,

475
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and somebody had this line, you know,

476
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Government programs can help you maybe
encourage you to have the kids you want,

477
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but they won't convince you 
to have the kids you don't want.”

478
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it’s maybe sort of 
the same with marriage.

479
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are some policy things.

480
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you want to get married, they can help it.

481
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But if you're not looking for that, 
what can we do?

482
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] This is a really important point,

483
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is that there does 
not seem to be evidence

484
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that people in the U.S. have whole-scale 
rejected the institution of marriage.

485
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I know there are some groups

486
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that essentially say marriage 
is a patriarchal institution,

487
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and it's not compatible 
with modern day feminism.

488
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, of course, you're going 
to have a reduction in marriage.

489
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And let me just say before I go further on this

490
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that let's keep coming back to the fact
that college-educated women,

491
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the most economically successful women 
perhaps in the history of, like, the world.

492
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We're still getting married and raising 
our kids in married-
parent homes.

493
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So I reject the proposition 
that marriage is inherently at odds

494
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with any feminist view of women's 
economic participation or success.

495
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So then it's the question of:

496
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Well, why has marriage fallen out of favor
outside the college-educated class?”

497
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And when you look at 
the ethnographic evidence

498
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the qualitative surveys 
of low-income couples,

499
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
unmarried couples who avail themselves

500
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of some of the government programs

501
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or government-funded programs,
their community-offered programs

502
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that work with unmarried parents 
trying to strengthen families,

503
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what you see in those interviews 
and those qualitative studies

504
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that a lot of these couples 
say they want to be together.

505
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we saw this in the 
“Fragile Family” survey, too, right?

506
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They say they want to be together, 
they plan to be together.

507
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And then for a whole variety of reasons, 
they can't make that work.

508
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This too should really affect our willingness 
to grapple with this as an equity issue.

509
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you've got high income couples, 
highly educated couples

510
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who are managing to achieve

511
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and make this very advantageous
structure work for them,

512
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
shouldn't we want more people

513
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who say they WANT to be 
able to have a two-parent home

514
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and a happy, healthy marriage,

515
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
shouldn't we help them achieve it,

516
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even if they can't pay for high-priced
marriage counseling or whatever.

517
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What do you see? There are real barriers?

518
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's economic instability

519
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that makes someone either less willing 
to commit to taking care of a family

520
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or makes, you know, 
the mother of his children

521
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
less likely to accept him as a resident dad.

522
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right.

523
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] You see substance abuse, 
you see mental health challenges.

524
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You see a lot of these adults grew up in homes

525
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that weren't characterized 
by stable, healthy marriages,

526
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
growing up in communities where their 
friends and cousins and other role models

527
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are not raising their kids in this way.

528
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So here's an opportunity for community 
groups and for public funding

529
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and philanthropic groups 
and for church groups to say:

530
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“What can we do 
to help strengthen families

531
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to meet them where they are 
and help make them stronger?”

532
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
At the same time, creating a 
social convention and expectation

533
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
among children being raised and teenagers now

534
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that this is something to strive for.

535
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This will make your household 
more economically viable.

536
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It will confer benefits to your children.

537
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So it's both meeting families 
where they are now.

538
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I think, setting our sights on:

539
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“What do we want to accomplish 
going forward and how do we get there?

540
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] That's great. And really helpful.

541
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You have a great chapter on boys and dads,
and I'm going to ask you a question,

542
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not so much as an economist 
(so you know, if you want to answer it or not)

543
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but as a teacher and as a professor,
and maybe the sort of students 
that are coming to University of Maryland

544
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are so self-selecting of such a high 
elite caliber that you wouldn't see this.

545
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I just wonder in your years of teaching,

546
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there's lots of social science research 
on the ways that boys are falling behind.

547
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we can even say anecdotally, 
young men are drawn to online influencers,

548
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
some of whom you are sort of helpful, 
some of whom are really unhelpful.

549
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I just wonder, have you sensed something?

550
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, you work with 
young people of different ages.

551
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Have you sensed in, 
you know, the last generation

552
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that there are more challenges 
or more anxiety, despondency?

553
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What are you, sort of on the ground, sense? 
And in particular, about boys and men?

554
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
TIME 33:53

555
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] I think the single biggest 
thing that gets me down as a professor,

556
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and, you know, I've been working with 
the young adults now for almost 20 years.

557
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There really is, you just see it, 
just a widespread anxiety among them

558
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(men and women alike)

559
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that I just I don't I don't think-- 
I certainly didn't notice it 20 years ago.

560
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, I'm very aware of the fact 
that I've been a parent.

561
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so now I see these 20-year-olds.

562
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is like closer and closer 
to my own children.

563
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right. Uh-huh.

564
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] But the amount of kids, 
I mean, KIDS, right? They're young adults.

565
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They’re like 18 to 22 who come to my office.

566
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Often--Like you know, young men, too, 
I'll call them in, and I'll say,

567
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“What happened? 
happened on the test,” right?

568
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Like, what happened? 
Do you come to class? Like, what?”

569
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And they're big guys, 
and they have their hoodie up,

570
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and they look like they don't care.

571
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh.

572
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] And then they'll start crying.

573
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And they'll be like-- You know, 
I'm not I'm not making this up, right?

574
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And all of these anecdotes 
are part of the reason

575
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
why I felt so like I had to write this book,

576
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even though I don't tell 
these anecdotes in the book.

577
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They'll be like, you know, “My parents 
just announced they're getting divorced.

578
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think they thought it was okay 
because we're at college now,

579
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I'm having a tough semester.”

580
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or you know, “My grandma raised me, 
and it was just me and my grandma

581
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and my grandma died, 
and I'm having a tough semester.”

582
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or “I can't figure out what I'm 
going to do with the rest of my life,

583
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I'm really stressed

584
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I'm supposed to be interviewing
for jobs, and I just don't know.”

585
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And just the amount of sadness 
and anxiety among young people

586
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who have their whole lives ahead of them.

587
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.

588
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Right? 
I think just should be filled with energy.

589
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I don't want to overtell this story

590
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because there is something that's also 
really energizing among young people.

591
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I just, I worry about them. I do.

592
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I worry about them, and I wish as adults, 
we could do more to make them feel

593
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
comfortable and confident and safe 
and secure, and, like, it's okay.

594
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Do you think boys 
in particular are wondering--

595
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, I suppose, men and women,

596
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but you know, you talk about
the incredible importance of dads.

597
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And, you know, that wonderful story 
about the dad (was it in Louisiana?)

598
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who showed up at school, 
and gang participation plummeted.

599
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And even some of the metrics you give with—
It even seems that boys in the home

600
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are more affected by the lack 
of a father than girls are.

601
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I mean, again, this comes
out of really rigorous econometric studies.

602
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We see that the gender gap favoring girls

603
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(meaning girls are now less likely 
to get in trouble at school;

604
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they've always been, 
but that gap has widened).

605
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They're more likely to graduate high school.
They're more likely to go to college.

606
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Again, girls are more likely 
to hit all these markers of success.

607
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This has been happening over the same 
decade that we've had a tremendous rise

608
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the share of kids growing up 
without dads in their home.

609
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And researchers, economists 
have worked very hard

610
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to establish a causal link here showing 
that that gender gap that favors girls

611
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is wider among kids coming from mother-
only homes than two-parent homes.

612
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And then economists have gone further
and looked at the mechanisms

613
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and shown that the absence 
of additional parental inputs,

614
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
meaning time nurturing parenting 
that kids from single-parent homes get.

615
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Again, not because single moms 
aren't great parents.

616
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's because they don't have a second 
parent in the house to help, right?

617
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] My wife is always saying, 
“I don't know how I would do this.”

618
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I certainly don't know how I would do it.

619
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] So this isn't 
to impugn single moms.

620
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Again, it's to say that there are more 
parenting resources in two-parent homes,

621
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we see that lower level of parenting
inputs and nurturing parenthood

622
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has a large, larger effect on 
the behaviors and outcomes of boys.

623
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I want to be careful because I don't think 
we should erroneously conclude from that

624
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that girls aren't necessarily struggling.

625
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But girls might be struggling
in different ways.

626
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Whereas boys, again, we know on average 
are more likely to express their struggles

627
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by acting out in ways that are going to get 
them suspended, in trouble with the law,

628
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
all sorts of things that could really 
impede their educational and economic—

629
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] They have outward
aggressive, noticeable, public

630
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Again, on average, right?

631
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Uh huh.

632
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] And so that's bad for them.

633
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This, too, is why this is 
SO important to intervene.

634
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, from all angles and break this

635
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because let's get back to why 
we think there's a reduction

636
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in marriage outside the college-educated class.

637
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Men are either viewing themselves

638
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as less likely to be stable, 
good providers for family.

639
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Women are less likely to view them that way.

640
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Then you have millions of boys being 
raised without dads in their house.

641
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That actually makes them less likely

642
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be in a position to be, you know,

643
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
stably employed, emotionally stable, 
supportive husbands and fathers.

644
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And this gets back to something 
else you brought up with.

645
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, the elite class is 
raising their kids in this way.

646
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And frankly, it's I mean, not only does it 
reject the overwhelming evidence and data

647
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
showing that kids benefit from 
having dads in their homes,

648
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it's extraordinarily elitist and 
obnoxious, quite frankly, to say:

649
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“No, my kid benefits from having me 
in the home because I'm a great guy

650
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I can read to them 
and really equip them.”

651
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But do we really expect the, you know, 40% 
of kids who are born to less-educated dads

652
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to benefit from their fathers?

653
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, “Let's give up on those guys

654
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and just assume a government 
program is going to make up for them”?

655
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I just I refuse to resign 
ourselves to that view of society.

656
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.
Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way,

657
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but there is a level of self-aggrandizement.

658
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Of course, I'm valuable.

659
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I wouldn't want my kids to be without, 
because I'm a very special parent.”

660
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, we're all probably all probably capable 
of being better parents than we think,

661
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we're probably less special 
than we think at the same time.

662
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Kevin, this is analogous 
to the conversation about college.

663
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we know that people with a college 
degree do better in the labor market.

664
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And there's a push to try and get 
more people through college, right?

665
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We have lots of policy interventions
aimed at doing that.

666
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there's a group of people that says, 
“Well, not everybody needs college.”

667
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the critics of that view always say,
“But ask them if they're 
sending THEIR kid to college.”

668
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Right?

669
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yes.

670
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] It’s a similar thing.

671
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, “Well, YOU don't need two parents, 
and your kid doesn't go to college.

672
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But by the way, I'm going to shower 
two parents’ worth of resources on my kid

673
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and make sure they go 
to a four-year college.”

674
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, I wonder-- 
I would love to-- I mean, if you're willing,

675
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
how does this affect how you are as a mom?

676
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If your kids are anything like my kids, 
they are not going to read your book.

677
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY laughs]

678
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Maybe your kids
are really high over achievers,

679
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I've written some stuff,
and I try to gift it.

680
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“No, I'm not interested in it.”

681
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But this is informing and is shaped by 
and probably downstream in some ways

682
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from your own parenting.

683
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What sort of messages,

684
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
given the expertise you have in this area, 
are you trying to give to your own kids?

685
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] To be overt, I am very aware 
of the fact that my kids are growing up,

686
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not only in a two-parent 
household themselves,

687
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but surrounded by people who are 
being raised in two-parent household--

688
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Which is huge.

689
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>KEARNEY] because that's what it looks like
in, you know, sort of well-off community,

690
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is where we live.

691
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, I'm very open about the fact

692
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that I recognize my kids are being 
raised in a very privileged setting.

693
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so it's you know, kids absorb
what they see around them.

694
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And again, we know this from evidence, 
even though it also is incredibly intuitive

695
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that kids’ world view is shaped 
by what they experience.

696
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so I mean, I probably should talk about it
more explicitly, let's say, with my kids,

697
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I don't really worry 
that my daughters are thinking

698
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that maybe they would become 
young unmarried mothers.

699
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's-- I mean, I'm not foolish 
to think that things don't happen.

700
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right, for sure.

701
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>[KEARNEY] But that's not really something

702
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they observe very often in the people around
them that they're being raised with, right?

703
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so they just sort of, by default, 
expect that they're going to go to college.

704
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And also, you know, interesting
for me as a mom,

705
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they see me and my sisters 
all working and having careers.

706
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I assume that that affects 
the way they think of it.

707
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, my daughters also think I work too much,
and they don't want to work as much…

708
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG chuckles]

709
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>[KEARNEY] …which is also fair, right?
Like they’re definitely--

710
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that was something actually, I grew up 
in a different generation than my mom,

711
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where I assumed I was going 
to work and have a career,

712
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but then, thinking of my own mom,

713
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I also assumed I was going to have 
kids and be a really involved mom

714
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and there was some conflict there.

715
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So I think about that a lot, you know,

716
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
how our kids see us and our communities
affect what the aspirations…

717
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Absolutely.

718
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] …you know, 
they have for themselves.

719
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] So, maybe 
that's a good transition

720
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to sort of a last line of questioning.

721
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I do want to— Let's see. I’ll mention one 
other sponsor, Desiring God, new book:

722
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Foundations for Lifelong Learning,
Education, and Serious Joy” by John Piper,

723
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
available next week when this is recorded.

724
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So check that out. Always great 
to see what John is writing there

725
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about education and serious joy.

726
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you to Desiring God.

727
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's a great transition because you 
used a phrase a number of times in the book,

728
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and this is really what you're talking about,

729
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“social norms” because there are 
lots of things as an economist,

730
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you think about different policies, 
and those things do matter.

731
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They're not irrelevant.
They can nudge people.

732
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They can make certain decisions 
more or less likely or palatable.

733
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But then you have this big bucket
Of, well, social norms.

734
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One of the things I underlined 
throughout the book

735
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that you would often mention
as a kind of aside, you'd say,

736
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Well, Asian families 
are the exception to this.”

737
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I couldn't help but say,

738
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Well, there are some 
very strong social norms,

739
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's not just a stereotype.”

740
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, there's data to support that.

741
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Very strong social norms about marriage,
about education, about all these things.

742
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So is there a possibility to affect 
social norms? How do we go about it?

743
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because it seems like the biggest thing—

744
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We can do lots of things around the edges 
to try to help push people

745
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the right direction for the well-being 
of society and their families and kids.

746
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And yet, social norms are very—

747
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's no program to change 
a community’s social norms.

748
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] This is why this is a hard issue 
for like economists and policy wonks

749
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because, like you said, we could do 
all sorts of tinkering around the edges.

750
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I can propose (and I have proposed) 
changes to the tax code

751
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that would be less punishing, 
frankly, of marriage.

752
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are definitely 
tinkering policy things—

753
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] If you get 
more tax breaks for having kids.

754
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I have nine kids, so I welcome
as many as you can get. [chuckles]

755
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I'm all for 
an expanded child tax credit.

756
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm all for a child allowance.

757
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm certainly for what I've referred to 
as a secondary earner tax deduction

758
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so that we don't penalize married couples 
or two workers when they get married.

759
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We have all sorts of ways 
we could tinker around the edges,

760
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I think those will, you know,
l

761
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
ike you said, nudge some people 
and have incremental effects.

762
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But really turning this around is going to 
require a change in social conventions,

763
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and now you're moving further and further 
away from the economist policy tool kit.

764
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But again, you know, some critics are like:

765
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Oh, she tells us this big problem 
and then there's no real solutions.”

766
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But in some sense, one of the things 
I'm trying to accomplish with this book is,

767
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Here, I know there's a problem…

768
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right.

769
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] …Now, all of you who do things
more than just tinker with the tax code,

770
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
let's address this together.” This is--

771
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] This is pastors 
and communities and other, yeah--

772
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] There are things we could do.

773
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, that's on the one hand.

774
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
On the other hand, 
(because I am an economist,

775
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's how we do things:
“on the one hand, on the other hand”),

776
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Social norms are surprisingly malleable, 
and they can also change very quickly.

777
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we have, again, 
good social science evidence

778
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
showing that things like role models 
matters (we were just discussing);

779
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things like media messaging matters.

780
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let me give you a couple examples.

781
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Eliana La Ferrara and her colleagues

782
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
have shown that in Brazil,
when soap operas came on TV—

783
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this is sort of amazing--

784
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
using variation in where they 
were viewed at different timing,

785
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they document a causal link, exposure 
to the smaller families and divorce on—

786
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you know, like in those communities 
that saw those media images,

787
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that led to a change in family formation, 
an increase in divorce, fewer kids.

788
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like people responded by 
emulating what they saw on TV.

789
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In a very different setting, my colleague 
Phil Levin and I looked at what happened

790
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when the “16 and Pregnant” and 
“Teen Mom” franchise came on MTV

791
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, talk about that.

792
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That was a really 
interesting point of the book.

793
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] This is crazy.

794
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
All of a sudden, one year, 
teen childbearing in the U.S.

795
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
went down by way more 
than it had been falling.

796
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So teen childbearing 
had been falling in the U.S.

797
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And then one year, 
there was a really large drop.

798
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we had studied this issue

799
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
enough to know [that] it wasn't 
the unemployment rate.

800
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It wasn't sex ed.

801
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What could this be?

802
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It turns out that when this show came on TV,
which millions of teenagers watched,

803
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it was a pretty realistic depiction 
of how unglamorous it was to be pregnant at 16,

804
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] 
“16 and Pregnant” is the MTV show.

805
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] “16 and Pregnant.”

806
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so we had an R.A. [research assistant?]

807
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
watch all the shows 
and code up what happens.

808
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, what happens? 
Most of the boyfriends don't stick around.

809
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Most of these young girls are stuck with 
a crying baby in the middle of the night.

810
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, you might have thought that people 
would know being a teen mom was hard,

811
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but apparently, this was really salient.

812
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And in those communities

813
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where more people were watching 
MTV before this show even came on

814
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
(so MTV just had more market 
penetration in certain areas).

815
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
When this show came on the air,

816
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you saw a larger reduction in teen 
childbearing in those places.

817
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so the idea here is: Gosh, this show 
really changed hearts and minds

818
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in ways that affected behaviors 
that affected birth rates.

819
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so we got access 
to Google and Twitter data,

820
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you see that when these episodes aired,

821
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there would be a spike in Google 
searching for how to get birth control.

822
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There would be a spike in tweets 
mentioning this show and birth control.

823
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So there was this idea 
that people saw this show

824
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and decided they didn't want 
to become pregnant as a teenager.

825
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Which again, it's just really amazing 
because it validates this idea

826
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that exposure to content and ideas
affects people's attitudes

827
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in ways that affects their behaviors,

828
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even in the really complicated domains of 
marriage, family formation, and having kids.

829
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] It was really fascinating.

830
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've heard of the show.

831
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I can't say I've watched it before 
or that we have a lot of MTV on.

832
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But yeah, I mean, you did the homework

833
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to show there's probably
some connection there.

834
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You say at the end of the book:

835
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Here are things we should do 
to address the challenges I've laid out,

836
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then some things 
I do not think we should do.”

837
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And these are good.

838
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I want to highlight two 
because I just wonder:

839
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How do we do both of these things?

840
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So here's what you say we should do:

841
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Work to restore and foster a norm 
of two-parent homes for children.”

842
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Good.

843
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Here's one thing we should not do:

844
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Stigmatize single mothers 
or encourage unhealthy marriages.”

845
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So I agree with both of those things.

846
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Here's what I wrestle with a lot, 
and I wrestle with it as a pastor

847
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and it’s stigma.

848
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So we think of stigma 
as universally a bad thing,

849
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and yet we want to stigmatize
racism or all sorts of things.

850
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are bad behaviors that our culture 
and our communities do a lot to say:

851
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“That's a bad thing to do.”

852
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So I think as a pastor-- and I don't 
know what your views are on this.

853
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm not presuming 
that you share these personal views.

854
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But, I believe the Bible says 
that sex before marriage is wrong,

855
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but also the Bible says 
you can be forgiven for that.

856
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And it's not the end of your life.

857
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, on the one hand, I think 
about our church community,

858
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which has a pretty thick culture

859
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and what you described, 
you know, your neighborhood,

860
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there are certain norms.

861
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are certain things that it just 
looks normal to have a mom and a dad.

862
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It looks normal to work hard at school.
It looks normal to not do drugs.

863
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[It looks normal] to pursue education.

864
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
All of these things are good.

865
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so there would be if somebody in 
our church, you know, was 16 and pregnant,

866
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it would raise eyebrows and 
there'd be something of a stigma.

867
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So on the one hand, I wanna say—

868
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] But also hope you guys 
would love her and embrace her

869
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and pay for her diapers and--

870
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yes, absolutely.

871
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So what I'm getting to is:

872
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How do we do it so that the behavior, 
like in our case, would be stigmatized,

873
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but the person is not cast off.

874
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And in fact, somebody said,
this really just helped open my eyes.

875
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Of course, I should-- You know, 
it's not even out-of-wedlock births.

876
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, we should, from my perspective, 
applaud the mom who is going through

877
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and having the child and working 
to, you know, sacrifice so much.

878
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We want to applaud that decision, I do.

879
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So it's always this push and pull 
of how to establish norms,

880
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because norms say something is normal.

881
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But then when something is outside of 
that normal, as you were right to interject,

882
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
yeah, I want our community to love 
that mom and sign up for meals,

883
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which I know they would 
and buy diapers and do all of that.

884
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How do you think about 
that as an economist

885
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or even just as a mom or as—

886
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] As a person? [chuckles]

887
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.

888
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, I think you 
completely put your finger

889
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on probably the hardest needle 
I'm trying to thread

890
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by saying those two things.

891
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And somebody said directly to me, 
like, “We DO need to bring back shame.”

892
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there's, you know, there's a role for it.
So here's what I mean when I say that.

893
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'll give you examples of 
things on those two points--

894
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hmm.

895
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] that I would and wouldn’t do.

896
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So the stigma of single moms and 
their kids that basically in the past,

897
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
made them outcast from society,

898
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
let's all agree we should 
never go back to that, right?

899
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We do not want women feeling like they're 
trapped in abusive marriages, right?

900
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we do not want children 
and their single parents

901
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be even more deprived of resources

902
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by punishing them for where they are.

903
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] You're 18, and you get 
a second-class life for the rest of it.

904
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Yeah. And here you are.

905
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So those are terribly counterproductive 
approaches that we should never go back to.

906
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
At the same time, I mean,

907
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm not going to totally point my finger 
at like Disney Plus or Netflix or Hollywood.

908
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But you know, the television portrayal 
of families has gone so far to say:

909
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Hey, it's totally fine.”

910
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know, this one's being raised 
with her mom and her new boyfriend,

911
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but her old boyfriend is still they're 
all good friends and it's awesome.

912
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that's, like, such a farce.
That's not really what it looks like.

913
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So let's be honest that, you know,

914
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we could accept and love 
all sorts of family arrangements,

915
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
while still being honest about 
what is best for kids in particular.

916
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And by the way, it's not great for single 
parents who tend to be under-resourced

917
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be doing this by themselves.

918
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, the kinds of things about fostering norms,

919
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for instance, a lot of the social 
service agencies or programs

920
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for, you know, single moms and 
their kids, the dads will tell you this:

921
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You go into those buildings, 
and the picture,

922
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, the logo is basically a mom and 
her daughter, or a mom and her child.

923
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.

924
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] 
There's not even a dad in the picture, right?

925
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right, that’s a norm.

926
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] And so these responsible
fatherhood programs walk in,

927
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and they're like, the dad 
isn't even in the picture.

928
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
In an effort to being sort of 
welcoming of the reality

929
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that a lot of these programs
serve single moms and their kids,

930
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there's not even an expectation 
of a dad being around.

931
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that kind of subtlety, 
I think matters, right?

932
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, I was even talking to a woman

933
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who runs a program for lifting up 
single moms, and I said to her:

934
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
“Well, you're part of the solution.
You're working to strengthen families.”

935
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And she stopped, and very thoughtfully,
she said, “But I've never thought to ask, 
where's the dad? Why isn't he around?”

936
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that's a bit of a mind shift, right?

937
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
To say, let's think about
strengthening families.

938
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let's talk about the importance 
of dads, how they can contribute

939
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
without stigmatizing the one 
parent and their child so strongly

940
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that they feel like they're 
not enveloped in support.

941
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Right, yeah,
and I think you said earlier,

942
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this is going to happen at 
a personal level and community level.

943
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, I think of a number of women 
in our church who volunteer

944
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with a Christian Young Lives 
program that reaches out

945
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and my younger daughters have volunteered
to do some of the babysitting

946
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so these single moms can get training,

947
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and, you know, in our context, 
it’s Bible studies and other things.

948
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And there's lots of people 
who do care about these things.

949
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And anybody listening who does,

950
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there are things and good programs that 
can make a difference and help with these.

951
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So my last question for you.

952
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you so much 
for writing this book, Melissa.

953
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If any of my kids go 
to the University of Maryland,

954
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's not on their list, but if they do, 
I'll tell them to take a class.

955
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY, laughing] Great!

956
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] You're doing undergrads.

957
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What do you have coming up next?

958
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What are you working on? 
Academic books, popular books?

959
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What are you doing?

960
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Hopefully, you know, some of the negative 
feedback you're probably getting on this book

961
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
doesn't keep you away from it 
because it's really helpful.

962
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] I appreciate that.

963
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I will say, because I wrapped up 
this manuscript, you know, some time ago

964
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
before it actually shows up in print.

965
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] In COVID, I think.

966
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Yeah. Over the past two years,

967
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've been working a lot trying 
to understand the decline in fertility,

968
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is another, you know, 
not uncontroversial topic.

969
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh.

970
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] But again, there's a lot 
of economic causes and consequences

971
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the decline in fertility,
and so that's another one

972
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where setting aside all sorts 
of moral or value judgments

973
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about how we think somebody 
should live their lives.

974
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The fact that in high income countries, 
we are now below replacement level,

975
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
fertility is going to pose a lot of challenges 
on our economic and social structures.

976
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Good.

977
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] Studying that is, you know,
what I've been thinking about.

978
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Well, I will read that.

979
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY, laughing] Okay, great.

980
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Glad for you to write that.

981
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's really important.

982
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Again, talking to Melissa, 
“The Two-Parent Privilege:

983
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How Americans Stopped Getting 
Married and Started Falling Behind.”

984
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Thank you so much for taking time

985
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and working before we started this
to get all the mics and headsets.

986
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And thank you to your husband.

987
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[KEARNEY] It was a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.

988
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, thank you.

989
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So thank you for listening 
to Life & Books & Everything,

990
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a ministry of Clearly Reformed.

991
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You can get episodes like this and 
other resources at clearlyreformed.org

992
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Until next time glorify God,
enjoy him forever, read a good book.

993
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
♪ [up-tempo closing music] ♪

994
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
[END]