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Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.06,0:00:06.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,♪ [up-tempo opening music] ♪
Dialogue: 0,0:00:06.81,0:00:09.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEVIN DEYOUNG, HOST] \NGreetings and salutations.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:09.20,0:00:11.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Welcome back to “Life & Books & Everything.”
Dialogue: 0,0:00:11.43,0:00:13.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm Kevin DeYoung, Senior Pastor
Dialogue: 0,0:00:13.03,0:00:15.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at Christ Covenant Church \Nin Matthews, North Carolina.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:15.71,0:00:21.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I am joined today \Nby my special guest, Melissa Kearney.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.16,0:00:26.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we're going to talk about her new book \Ncalled “The Two-Parent Privilege.”
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.21,0:00:31.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Melissa has a very august resume here.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:31.24,0:00:34.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She's Professor of Economics \Nat the University of Maryland;
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.84,0:00:38.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,director of a number of \Ndifferent research groups;
Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.61,0:00:41.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a nonresident, \Nsenior fellow at Brookings;
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.32,0:00:45.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a scholar in a number of different \Nlabs and affiliations and journals
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.86,0:00:48.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and lots of good academic work that she's done.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:48.90,0:00:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She did her undergraduate at \NPrinceton, PhD in Economics at MIT.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.80,0:00:57.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Melissa, thank you for coming on \Nhere to talk about your new book.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.00,0:00:59.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[MELISSA KEARNEY, GUEST] \NHappy to be here.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:59.12,0:01:00.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thanks so much for having me.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:00.62,0:01:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] So this is a book about parents,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.13,0:01:11.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's a book where you're using your \Nexpertise as a trained academic economist.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.61,0:01:13.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you also write personally.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.82,0:01:16.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You say at the beginning and \Nat the end, in particular,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.46,0:01:21.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you're a mom and an economist,\Nand that's in the correct order.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.76,0:01:23.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's what's most important.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:23.30,0:01:27.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you have three kids.\NSo tell us about your family.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.57,0:01:31.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Okay. It's exactly right.\NI'm a trained economist,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:31.15,0:01:36.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I think the greatest thing I do\Nis be a mom to my three kids,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:36.34,0:01:42.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a boy and two girls, and I'm raising them\Nwith my husband in suburban Maryland.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:42.96,0:01:45.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] And how did you \Nget to the University of Maryland?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.94,0:01:49.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And are you a big “Terps” \N[Terrapins] sports fan?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:49.01,0:01:52.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY, chuckling] I mean, \NI admit that I spend most of my time
Dialogue: 0,0:01:52.65,0:01:54.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over in the economics department,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:54.29,0:01:57.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I do cheer for the Terps \Nevery now and then,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:57.32,0:02:00.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm delighted when they do well.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.15,0:02:04.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have been at the University \Nof Maryland for 17 years now;
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.10,0:02:10.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,moved down to DC from the Boston area \Nprobably 19 years ago;
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.11,0:02:14.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went to Brookings on a two-year fellowship, \Ndid some dedicated research there
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.94,0:02:17.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on topics that I've been working on\Nfor over two decades
Dialogue: 0,0:02:17.91,0:02:22.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(U.S. inequality, poverty, \Nchild and family well-being);
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.31,0:02:26.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then took a tenure track job \Nat Maryland where I've been ever since,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.33,0:02:30.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I enjoy teaching the undergrads there \Nand training PhD students there
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.56,0:02:36.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and working as part of a really \Nintellectually vibrant economics department.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:36.56,0:02:39.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] \NAnd how did you get interested in this topic,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:39.46,0:02:41.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I know is part of broader interest.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.30,0:02:43.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You just mentioned \Ninequality and other things,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:43.95,0:02:50.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but this area having to do \Nwith families and parents?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.27,0:02:52.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Since I was an undergrad,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.23,0:02:59.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've really been interested in the economic \Nand social lives of women and children.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:59.64,0:03:02.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I really have sort of always had an interest
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.71,0:03:07.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in questions about how society works or \Ndoesn't work well for certain groups of people
Dialogue: 0,0:03:07.25,0:03:11.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a particular interest in less \Neconomically advantaged groups.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.64,0:03:15.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so those are the questions \Nthat brought me to economics, actually.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:15.59,0:03:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me just say, because\Na lot of people, I think,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:18.15,0:03:22.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think about economics as finance \Nor stock picking and that kind of thing,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:22.49,0:03:26.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is nothing to do with \Nthe kind of economics I do.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.39,0:03:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, as an undergrad, I was interested \Nin questions of society and public policy,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:30.51,0:03:34.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,took a bunch of those classes,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.62,0:03:41.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but loved the sort of rigor and theory\Nand empirical work of economics.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.48,0:03:46.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I use those tools of economics \Nto ask these questions.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.89,0:03:51.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How did I become interested \Nin questions about women and families?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:51.02,0:03:54.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I suppose it has to do with, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:54.22,0:03:58.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like many of us being interested in the \Nworld around us the way we grew up.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:58.48,0:04:03.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so it was, you know, \NI grew up in New Jersey in the ‘80s,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:03.22,0:04:08.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very cognizant of the fact that I had \Neducational opportunities,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:08.24,0:04:12.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,economic opportunities that my mom and \Nmy grandma and their sisters didn't have.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:12.73,0:04:15.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so were my grandma's sisters didn't have.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.56,0:04:19.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so those kinds of questions really \Nwere at the forefront of my mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.44,0:04:21.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then I spent a summer in college —
Dialogue: 0,0:04:21.71,0:04:25.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this was really a very salient \Nexperience for me —
Dialogue: 0,0:04:25.59,0:04:27.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I spent a summer in college
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.07,0:04:30.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,working at a welfare-to-work center \Nin Bridgeport, Connecticut.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:30.08,0:04:35.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you know, got to know and work with \Nwomen who were my age at the time,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.29,0:04:39.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably between 17 and 22, \Nand they were all moms receiving welfare,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:39.87,0:04:43.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they had to go to this training program \Nin order to keep their benefits.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.86,0:04:48.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that summer just, you know, \Nreally sort of cemented my interest
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.22,0:04:52.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in thinking about how policies\Nand economic conditions
Dialogue: 0,0:04:52.04,0:04:55.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,affect the decisions and well-being \Nof women and families.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.44,0:04:58.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so that's been \Na common thread of my research
Dialogue: 0,0:04:58.36,0:05:01.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,throughout my time as \Nan academic economist.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.20,0:05:07.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] So I'm not an expert \Nin these things. I'm a pastor.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:07.14,0:05:12.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My PhD is in history, \Nbut I like reading these things.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:12.66,0:05:17.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I was interested to read not only you\Nciting Sarah McLanahan a number of times,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.77,0:05:20.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you had her at Princeton.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.27,0:05:22.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So tell us about her influence.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.08,0:05:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And anyone who's read in \Nthis area of marriage and family
Dialogue: 0,0:05:25.76,0:05:29.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knows that she's done lots of really \Nimportant empirical research.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:29.54,0:05:34.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What role did she play in your\Nintellectual formation or interest in this?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:34.86,0:05:38.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Sarah McClanahan \Nreally was a pioneer in this field.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.60,0:05:43.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She created or launched what was called \N“The Fragile Family Survey”
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.44,0:05:48.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you know, interviewed and collected data
Dialogue: 0,0:05:48.52,0:05:53.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on unmarried parents at the time of their \Nchild's birth and tracked them over time.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.71,0:05:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so it's really a credit to Sarah McClanahan
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.07,0:06:00.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we have as much information as we do
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.09,0:06:07.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on these particularly vulnerable families: \Nunmarried parents, mostly low-income.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:07.10,0:06:11.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so she really trained \Na lot of students in this field.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:11.74,0:06:17.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am actually not— I don't consider \Nmyself a direct trainee of Sarah.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:17.04,0:06:18.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She was a sociologist,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.92,0:06:23.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I did have the great fortune \Nof taking her Sociology of Poverty class
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.84,0:06:27.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when I was an undergrad, \Neven though I was an economics major.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:27.05,0:06:33.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was in her class that I was really \Nintroduced to this topic of family structure
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.24,0:06:38.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as it relates to poverty and child well-being.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.04,0:06:40.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that was really formative
Dialogue: 0,0:06:40.84,0:06:44.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because economists sort of pose \Nquestions in different ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.95,0:06:49.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so my work as an economist \Nover the past 20 plus years,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:49.51,0:06:51.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at inequality and poverty
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.97,0:06:57.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has tended to focus on issues \Nother than family structure.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:57.15,0:06:58.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hm.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.18,0:07:02.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[KEARNEY] But I was, like, teed up to \Nrecognize the importance of that early on,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.03,0:07:05.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having been exposed to Sarah McLanahan \Nas a professor and her work from early on.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.93,0:07:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, actually, that's sort of \Nthe confluence of those events,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.88,0:07:13.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(me being an economist, \Nbringing an economist lens to the topic
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.18,0:07:20.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but knowing Sarah McClanahan's work \Nreally well) I think has just kept me noticing.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:20.55,0:07:25.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Every time there's a study on inequality,\Nsocial mobility, kids' outcomes,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:25.83,0:07:29.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you just see how important \Nfamily structure is in the data.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.22,0:07:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, I think, you know, it was she—
Dialogue: 0,0:07:32.84,0:07:37.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knowing her work, having her teach me \Nearly on in my studies of these topics
Dialogue: 0,0:07:37.48,0:07:41.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has just sort of heightened my awareness
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.64,0:07:45.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the role of family structure in driving \Nthese kinds of economic outcomes.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.79,0:07:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Give you the lens to see \Nwhat maybe other people haven't seen
Dialogue: 0,0:07:51.77,0:07:53.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or didn't want to see.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.15,0:07:56.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We'll get to that in a moment.\NBut let's jump into your book.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:56.54,0:07:59.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I'm talking to Melissa Kearney, \N“The Two-Parent Privilege:
Dialogue: 0,0:07:59.63,0:08:03.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How Americans Stopped Getting \NMarried and Started Falling Behind.”
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.52,0:08:07.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It just came out this fall, \Npublished by University of Chicago Press.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:07.42,0:08:11.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So big-picture question, \NWhat is the “two-parent privilege”?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.65,0:08:16.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[KEARNEY] The two-parent privilege, \Nas I'm using the term, refers to the fact
Dialogue: 0,0:08:16.47,0:08:23.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that having two parents in one's home \Nconfers a lot of advantages to children.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:23.06,0:08:28.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is VERY well established in the data\Nand in empirical research.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:28.15,0:08:33.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The reason I call it a privilege is because \Nnot only is this a very advantageous situation,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.84,0:08:35.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but increasingly in this country,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.83,0:08:39.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this has become an advantageous situation
Dialogue: 0,0:08:39.72,0:08:44.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enjoyed disproportionately \Nby an already advantaged class.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:44.71,0:08:48.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so it's really now \Ncollege-educated parents
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.85,0:08:54.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who continue to raise their kids in \Ntwo-parent homes at very high rates.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:54.48,0:08:56.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Meanwhile, over the past 40 years,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:56.78,0:09:01.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the share of children being raised \Nin two-parent households,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:01.24,0:09:06.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,among those who were born to parents\NWITHOUT a four-year college degree
Dialogue: 0,0:09:06.21,0:09:12.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has decreased by a really sizable amount \Nand has just been a steady downward trend.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:12.70,0:09:17.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so now, having a two-parent \Nfamily is yet another privilege
Dialogue: 0,0:09:17.76,0:09:23.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the already most privileged \Neconomic class in American society.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:23.09,0:09:24.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] So this is how you put it.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:24.98,0:09:28.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have some great summaries \Nat the end and at the beginning,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:28.69,0:09:31.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but here's one in the preface.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:31.42,0:09:34.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You say, I've studied U.S. poverty, \Ninequality, family structure
Dialogue: 0,0:09:34.62,0:09:36.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for almost a quarter of a century.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:36.41,0:09:41.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I approached these issues as a hard-headed\N(albeit soft-hearted) MIT-trained economist.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:41.41,0:09:45.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Based on the overwhelming evidence at hand, \NI can say with the utmost confidence
Dialogue: 0,0:09:45.54,0:09:49.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the decline in marriage and \Nthe corresponding rise in the share
Dialogue: 0,0:09:49.17,0:09:51.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of children being raised in one-parent homes
Dialogue: 0,0:09:51.30,0:09:55.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has contributed to the economic \Ninsecurity of American families;
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.35,0:09:58.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has widened gap in opportunities \Nand outcomes
Dialogue: 0,0:09:58.46,0:10:00.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for children from different backgrounds;
Dialogue: 0,0:10:00.50,0:10:03.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and today poses economic \Nand social challenges
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.55,0:10:08.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we cannot afford to ignore, \Nbut may not be able to reverse.”
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.24,0:10:15.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I found a quotation just again, Sarah \NMcClanahan and Isabel Sawhill say
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.48,0:10:18.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(this is the 2015 journal “Future of Children”)
Dialogue: 0,0:10:18.08,0:10:19.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quote “Most scholars now agree
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.98,0:10:23.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that children raised by two biological \Nparents in a stable marriage
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.22,0:10:27.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do better than children and other family \Nforms across a wide range of outcomes.”
Dialogue: 0,0:10:27.16,0:10:31.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to dive into the data \Nthat you give in just a moment,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:31.10,0:10:37.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but back up a little bit and talk about\NWhy is this so hard to talk about?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:37.28,0:10:39.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it's very clear in reading your book
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.54,0:10:44.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you're trying very hard \Nto stick with the data
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.39,0:10:48.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and not to make moral value judgments.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:48.48,0:10:53.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm a pastor, so I can't avoid, you know,\Nwhen I'm speaking from the Bible,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:53.23,0:10:56.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,making some value judgments \Nthat I think the Bible teaches.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:56.86,0:11:02.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's obviously not what you're doing,\Nand you're studiously trying to avoid that.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:02.33,0:11:03.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet, you talk at the beginning
Dialogue: 0,0:11:03.96,0:11:08.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about how these conversations \Nat academic conferences,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:08.68,0:11:12.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“I'm an economist, much more comfortable\Ntalking about earned income tax credit
Dialogue: 0,0:11:12.92,0:11:14.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and other kind of policy.”
Dialogue: 0,0:11:14.68,0:11:18.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when you talk about, \Nwell, what about marriage?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:18.58,0:11:20.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's the proverbial lead balloon.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:20.20,0:11:21.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What has your experience been?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.85,0:11:24.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why is even talking about this so difficult,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:24.55,0:11:28.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably, especially for someone \Nlike you in academic atmosphere?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.92,0:11:30.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[KEARNEY, chuckling] That's right.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:30.56,0:11:33.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I have had plenty of people \Ncomment on my book.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:33.42,0:11:35.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This isn't hard for ME to talk about.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:35.38,0:11:38.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I talk about it with my church friends \Nall the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:38.33,0:11:39.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh. Right.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.78,0:11:41.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[KEARNEY But in academic settings,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.59,0:11:44.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's difficult, and there's \Na lot of reasons here.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:44.60,0:11:47.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to say most of them \Nare very, very well intentioned,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.70,0:11:53.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is that most of us \Ndon't want to sound like
Dialogue: 0,0:11:53.23,0:11:58.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're blaming single mothers \Nfor their difficult circumstances…
Dialogue: 0,0:11:58.54,0:11:59.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.98,0:12:03.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[KEARNEY] …and the relative disadvantage \Nthat their children suffers.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:03.35,0:12:07.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I mean, I certainly don't want \Nto sound like I'm blaming mothers.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:07.07,0:12:11.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But also very sincerely, I mean this.\NI'm NOT blaming the single mothers.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:11.52,0:12:14.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm recognizing that \Nthis is a challenging situation.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:14.100,0:12:20.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Any of us who are parents would, I think,\Nreadily recognize that parenting is difficult.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:20.70,0:12:25.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Doing it by oneself is, you know, \Nthat much more difficult.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.17,0:12:28.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there's a genuine empathy there.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:28.18,0:12:33.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think people get nervous about calling \Nattention to the relative disadvantage
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.93,0:12:36.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that kids from single-mother homes face
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.45,0:12:41.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it sounds like we're blaming \Npeople who are in a very tough spot.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.17,0:12:42.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:42.27,0:12:47.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[KEARNEY] Right? And I think we should \Nbe very capable of recognizing
Dialogue: 0,0:12:47.44,0:12:50.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that single parents — the majority \Nof whom are still single moms —
Dialogue: 0,0:12:50.77,0:12:55.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,single parents are in a very difficult spot, \Nand that puts their kids in a difficult spot.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.23,0:12:59.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we should be able to recognize that\Nand have an honest conversation about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.32,0:13:05.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The other reason I think as academics,\Nas economists interested in policy,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.57,0:13:07.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it becomes difficult for us to talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.30,0:13:09.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is because we don't have a very good answer
Dialogue: 0,0:13:09.93,0:13:13.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the critical question of:\N“Well, what do we do about it?”
Dialogue: 0,0:13:13.40,0:13:14.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.34,0:13:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Right? So if we talk instead
Dialogue: 0,0:13:16.80,0:13:19.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the fact that our tax code \Nis not progressive enough
Dialogue: 0,0:13:19.20,0:13:21.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or we're not raising enough revenue
Dialogue: 0,0:13:21.00,0:13:25.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to cover expenses of things \Nwe feel like we might need to pay for,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:25.53,0:13:30.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like more early childhood education \Nor more public subsidies of childcare,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:30.77,0:13:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's pretty easy for us to sit in a room
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.84,0:13:35.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and come up with ways to make \Nthe tax code more progressive
Dialogue: 0,0:13:35.66,0:13:39.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or design transfer programs \Nto reach more people.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:39.54,0:13:44.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It becomes a lot harder for us, \Nand it takes us out of our real comfort zone
Dialogue: 0,0:13:44.98,0:13:46.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when it comes to things like:
Dialogue: 0,0:13:46.82,0:13:51.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do we affect very personal \Ndecisions people are making
Dialogue: 0,0:13:51.25,0:13:54.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about how to form their families \Nand raise their children?
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.38,0:13:55.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:55.59,0:13:59.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's very personal, and it's almost impossible
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.18,0:14:05.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for any of us to talk about this or hear it\Nwithout thinking of how I grew up,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:05.00,0:14:06.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how I'm raising my kids.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:06.79,0:14:10.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do I have kids, all these personal things? \NI think that's why it's so difficult.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:10.66,0:14:14.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was a survey.\NI found these a couple years ago.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:14.55,0:14:16.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's an online survey, \Nwhatever they're worth.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.40,0:14:18.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know the scientific methodology here,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:18.65,0:14:21.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it said, more than \N70% of participants believed
Dialogue: 0,0:14:21.94,0:14:26.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a single parent can do \Njust as good a job as two parents.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.31,0:14:31.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,60% of women (quote) “agreed that children\Ndo best with multiple adults invested,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:31.48,0:14:34.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but two married parents \Nare not necessary.”
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.46,0:14:36.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Christina Cross, a few years ago,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:36.60,0:14:40.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in The New York Times,” had an article,\N“The Myth of the Two-Parent Home.”
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.18,0:14:44.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And even as I say those, \NI feel myself wanting to say,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:44.12,0:14:48.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Uh, yeah, we're not just all the things\Nyou just said, Melissa.”
Dialogue: 0,0:14:48.95,0:14:51.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We’re not saying that, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:51.89,0:14:54.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the single mom \Nis to blame for all these problems,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:54.94,0:14:56.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, where's the dad?
Dialogue: 0,0:14:56.79,0:14:59.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The dad is, you know, \Nfor any number of reasons —
Dialogue: 0,0:14:59.36,0:15:02.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we're going to get to talking about \Nboys and dads and just a bit —
Dialogue: 0,0:15:02.14,0:15:05.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think that just underscores those \Nsurveys for whatever they're worth.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:05.81,0:15:09.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I imagine people getting that phone call \Nor online, being asked that question
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.99,0:15:12.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and thinking, “Well, I don't want to say
Dialogue: 0,0:15:12.16,0:15:16.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that married couples \Nare better than anyone else.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.16,0:15:18.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course. Any number of people.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:18.01,0:15:21.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the myths — and I'd love \Nfor you to expound on this here —
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.63,0:15:24.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of the myths you talk about \Nseveral times in the book,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:24.54,0:15:26.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that people have the idea,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.29,0:15:28.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Well, sure, people aren't married
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.71,0:15:32.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and kids aren't being raised \Nas much in married families.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:32.19,0:15:36.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it's just kind of European style, \Nlaissez-faire relationships.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.10,0:15:38.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's the same thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:38.06,0:15:42.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's just people haven't gone through \Nthe formal structures of getting married.”
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.36,0:15:43.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is that true?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:43.48,0:15:45.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Let me answer that
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.22,0:15:49.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then come back to address \Nthe earlier points that you made,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.08,0:15:51.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,specifically about some of the reactions.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:51.41,0:15:55.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that is completely NOT true, \Nwhich is really important
Dialogue: 0,0:15:55.36,0:16:00.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because, again, since I'm taking \Nan economist lens to this issue,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:00.01,0:16:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what really matters \Nin the way I describe, frame, model,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:04.70,0:16:09.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then empirically study marriage\Nis the resources coming into a household.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:09.14,0:16:11.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if you had two parents \Nwho were together the whole time
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.94,0:16:15.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,committed to sharing their resources, \Nwhich is their income, their time,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:15.83,0:16:19.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their energy to raising kids together\Nthroughout a kid's childhood,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:19.21,0:16:23.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In my version (economic version) \Nof this story, it shouldn't matter,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.94,0:16:26.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but at a very practical level,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:26.13,0:16:29.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's NOT what unmarried parents are doing.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:29.26,0:16:33.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,40% of kids in this country are \Nnow born to unmarried parents.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.86,0:16:38.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,52% of kids born to moms \Nwithout a four-year college degree
Dialogue: 0,0:16:38.58,0:16:40.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are born to unmarried parents.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.42,0:16:44.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,70% of children born to Black moms\Nin this country, unmarried parents.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:44.69,0:16:47.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These parents aren't married \Nat the time of the child's birth.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:47.78,0:16:49.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as a practical matter,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:49.55,0:16:53.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very few of them will be together \Ncohabiting, raising their kids together
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.86,0:16:57.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the time this child is 5 years old, \Nlet alone 14 years old.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:57.26,0:16:59.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is one of the things we see in the data
Dialogue: 0,0:16:59.02,0:17:01.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Sarah McClanahan collected \Nwith her colleagues.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.97,0:17:03.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, at a practical level, marriage --
Dialogue: 0,0:17:03.96,0:17:08.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then, you know, there's a whole bunch\Nof theories as to why this is true --
Dialogue: 0,0:17:08.81,0:17:16.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but marriage just provides \Nan institutional framework, essentially,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:16.01,0:17:18.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that keeps parents together in this \Narrangement raising their kids together.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.94,0:17:24.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we can't be blasé about \Nthese really high number of kids
Dialogue: 0,0:17:24.49,0:17:28.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being raised in an unmarried-parent home, \Nbeing born to unmarried parents,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.22,0:17:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because, again, just very \Nwhat does that mean, practically?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:31.27,0:17:34.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It means that most of them \Nwill grow up in a one-parent home.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:34.61,0:17:36.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, let me talk specifically
Dialogue: 0,0:17:36.98,0:17:42.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just to respond to the reactions\Nor critics that you raise.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:42.25,0:17:46.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, 70% of adults say it's fine for kids\Nto be raised in a single-mother home.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.82,0:17:50.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, that could mean very many things.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:50.61,0:17:53.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First, of course, there are lots of children
Dialogue: 0,0:17:53.28,0:17:57.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are raised by single moms \Nwho do phenomenally well.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:57.15,0:18:01.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are plenty of single moms \Nwho have enough income
Dialogue: 0,0:18:01.49,0:18:05.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or, you know, a village around them \Nsuch that they can raise their kids
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.72,0:18:10.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in ways that are enriching home environments,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:10.12,0:18:11.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the kids can do very well.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.52,0:18:15.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm focused on averages and large trends.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:15.42,0:18:19.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we can all recognize the heroic efforts
Dialogue: 0,0:18:19.64,0:18:21.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that some single moms go to
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.60,0:18:25.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to make sure their kids are just \Nas successful as anyone else's children.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:25.50,0:18:27.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that doesn't mean that on average,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:27.28,0:18:32.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,two parents in a home don't have \Nan easier time than one parent.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:32.47,0:18:35.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And again, what we see \Nin the data very clearly
Dialogue: 0,0:18:35.33,0:18:40.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that in a typical situation, two-parent \Nhomes deliver more benefits to kids
Dialogue: 0,0:18:40.19,0:18:42.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and kids are more likely\Nto stay out of poverty,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:42.52,0:18:44.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,graduate high school, graduate college,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:44.51,0:18:50.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,achieve these markers of, you know, \Njust sort of basic markers of success,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.06,0:18:55.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,setting aside personal, you know, \Nqualities that we want in our children.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:55.42,0:18:59.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Christina Cross \NNew York Times, you know, piece
Dialogue: 0,0:18:59.50,0:19:03.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that said the myth of the two-parent family, \Nwhat she was arguing really is that—
Dialogue: 0,0:19:03.64,0:19:06.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and she and I come to \Ndifferent conclusions—
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.31,0:19:11.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what she was arguing is that \Nif you look at Black families,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:11.30,0:19:16.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the benefit of marriage wouldn't \Nbe as great as for White families,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.37,0:19:19.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and so she's like, “marriage \Ndoesn't solve our problems.”
Dialogue: 0,0:19:19.31,0:19:22.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And here's how I think about this.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:22.22,0:19:25.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I've done extensive research on this
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.34,0:19:29.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I've written academic paper, \Nand I described this in the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:29.54,0:19:32.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The way we should think about \Nthe benefits of marriage to a child
Dialogue: 0,0:19:32.69,0:19:36.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depends on what the second parent \Nwould bring into the home.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:36.48,0:19:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if the second parent is not stably \Nemployed or has low income
Dialogue: 0,0:19:43.17,0:19:46.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or isn't committed to the child, \Nor in extreme situations,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:46.46,0:19:50.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be a harmful presence\Nor an abusive presence,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.07,0:19:52.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then there wouldn't be \Na benefit of marriage.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.02,0:19:56.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this doesn't mean that the decline \Nin the two-parent home isn't a crisis
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.96,0:19:58.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for children and families in this country.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:58.98,0:20:03.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It means that it's not as easy as just saying\N“more people should get married.”
Dialogue: 0,0:20:03.52,0:20:05.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It means we have to actually grapple with:
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.64,0:20:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is it that's keeping millions of parents \Nor millions of adults who have kids together
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.96,0:20:12.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from getting married.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:12.29,0:20:16.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is it that's keeping millions of dads \Nfrom being committed to their families.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:16.27,0:20:20.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It just it makes us look at \Nroot causes of the problem,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:20.37,0:20:25.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it doesn't mean there's not a problem\Nor that two-parent homes aren't beneficial.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:25.19,0:20:28.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right, and I remember \Nlooking at Cross's argument,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.74,0:20:33.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you look at yes, there are differences \Nbetween Black families and White families;
Dialogue: 0,0:20:33.05,0:20:44.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and yet the data show that just again, \Naverages, it is better in America to be
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.41,0:20:46.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(I mean, if you were \Nto predict adult outcomes)
Dialogue: 0,0:20:46.09,0:20:49.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be a Black child raised by two parents,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.12,0:20:52.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than to be a White child \Nraised in a one-parent home.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:52.29,0:20:54.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, yes, there's still differences, but—
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.59,0:20:58.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and marriage, of course, \Ndoesn't solve all problems.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.61,0:21:01.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know who would argue that marriage\Nis going to solve all those problems.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:01.72,0:21:06.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But on the whole, all other things,\Nit's an advantage.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:06.20,0:21:09.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Melissa, you write about this in the book,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:09.42,0:21:12.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you go through different\Noptions and theories,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:12.21,0:21:14.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and, you know, like a good economist,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:14.25,0:21:17.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have to say, “Well, it could \Nbe this, and it could be that.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.52,0:21:18.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We can't finally determine.”
Dialogue: 0,0:21:18.83,0:21:23.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But where do you think,\Nin particular, this class divide goes?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.91,0:21:27.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, you know, ten years ago in \NCharles Murray's book, “Coming Apart,”
Dialogue: 0,0:21:27.78,0:21:30.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where he has, you know, \Nfictional Fishtown in Belmont,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:30.24,0:21:32.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and sort of, you know, in Belmont,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:32.52,0:21:37.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the upper middle class are living \None way, and in Fishtown, another way.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:37.86,0:21:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the ironies he says is,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:41.76,0:21:46.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people in this Belmont are\Ngiving their stated views of one thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:46.10,0:21:48.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like, it doesn't matter, \Nand yet the way they're living
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.90,0:21:52.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shows a different kind of value system:
Dialogue: 0,0:21:52.37,0:21:58.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that “graduate school, get married, \Nthen have your children,”
Dialogue: 0,0:21:58.38,0:22:03.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which you know, lots of studies show,\Nyou do those things in that order.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:03.64,0:22:10.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the chances of you being in poverty\Nin this country are very small.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:10.76,0:22:16.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So how, where did the very stark division—
Dialogue: 0,0:22:16.13,0:22:17.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because it wasn't like this you show.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:17.42,0:22:20.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, it wasn't like this in 1960 \Nthat there was such a division
Dialogue: 0,0:22:20.34,0:22:23.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between, you know, \N“the Haves” and “the Have Nots”
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.96,0:22:27.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,getting even wider apart \Non their very marital formation.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:27.70,0:22:29.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How did we get here?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:29.04,0:22:34.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Yeah, so this has really-- \Nthis class gap in family structure
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.43,0:22:39.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the share of kids \Nbeing raised in two-parent homes
Dialogue: 0,0:22:39.80,0:22:40.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has emerged over the past 40 years.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:40.67,0:22:42.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And frankly, this is why \Nanybody who professes to be
Dialogue: 0,0:22:42.98,0:22:46.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,concerned about income inequality \Nor the erosion of social mobility
Dialogue: 0,0:22:46.97,0:22:49.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,needs to contend with this
Dialogue: 0,0:22:49.04,0:22:54.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because two-parent homes \Nare very protective of children,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:54.80,0:22:56.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they really increase, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:56.90,0:23:00.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kids’ likelihood of hitting all \Nof these markers of success.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:00.74,0:23:01.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, what happened?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:01.87,0:23:05.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, here's the broad stroke of the story I tell
Dialogue: 0,0:23:05.37,0:23:10.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,based on my reading of all \Nthe data and relevant evidence,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:10.63,0:23:13.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is, we had a social cultural \Nrevolution in the ‘60s and ‘70s,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:13.92,0:23:17.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,changed our expectations for marriage, \Nsocial norms around gender roles.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:17.95,0:23:23.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It eroded, a bit, the social convention
Dialogue: 0,0:23:23.60,0:23:23.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of needing to be married \Nto have kids together, okay?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:23.97,0:23:26.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what we saw in the ‘60s and ‘70s
Dialogue: 0,0:23:26.37,0:23:29.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a reduction in marriage \Nsort of across the board,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:29.07,0:23:32.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even proportion across adults\Nof different education levels.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:32.59,0:23:37.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the ‘80s and ‘90s, things \Ndiverged quite starkly
Dialogue: 0,0:23:37.01,0:23:44.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such that the decline in marriage \Nstalled, stopped declining among adults,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:44.19,0:23:46.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went men and women \Nwith a four-year college degree.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:46.85,0:23:50.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So their rates of marriage \Nhave barely declined in 40 years,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:50.39,0:23:56.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we see that the share of kids being \Nraised in a married-parent home,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:56.10,0:23:58.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they're born to a mom with \Na four-year college degree,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:58.51,0:24:05.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's decreased over this 40-year period by \Nonly six percentage points, from 90% to 84%.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:05.87,0:24:07.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a very small decrease
Dialogue: 0,0:24:07.15,0:24:11.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when you realize how much bigger \Nand more diverse that group is.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.03,0:24:13.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So now about 30% of moms \Nhave a four-year college degree
Dialogue: 0,0:24:13.64,0:24:21.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as compared to only about 11%,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:21.45,0:24:23.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and yet still, raising your kids \Nin a married-parent home
Dialogue: 0,0:24:23.10,0:24:23.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is holding steady among that class.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:23.75,0:24:24.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in the ‘80s and ‘90s,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:24.67,0:24:26.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we saw that the share of kids being \Nraised in a married parent home,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:26.85,0:24:30.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not just for the most educationally\Ndisadvantaged adults
Dialogue: 0,0:24:30.76,0:24:32.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without a high school degree,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:32.24,0:24:36.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but really interestingly, and I think \Nunderappreciated in the middle.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:36.34,0:24:40.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So moms with a high school degree \Nor some college,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.11,0:24:43.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we might have considered them\Nsort of the middle class, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:43.99,0:24:48.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The likelihood that their kids are \Nbeing raised in a married-parent home
Dialogue: 0,0:24:48.39,0:24:51.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fell from 83% to 60%.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:51.98,0:24:54.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is a massive drop in 40 years.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:54.58,0:24:56.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So now, where are we in 2020?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:56.94,0:25:02.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, we've got this really large, \Nvery obvious class divergence.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:02.99,0:25:04.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think part of this is driven
Dialogue: 0,0:25:04.83,0:25:11.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the economic challenges facing \Nnon–college-educated men in particular,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:11.60,0:25:13.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over the ‘80s, ‘90s and early 2000s.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.56,0:25:14.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have a lot of research from economics
Dialogue: 0,0:25:14.81,0:25:17.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,showing that secular global changes
Dialogue: 0,0:25:17.68,0:25:22.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think, you know, increased \Nimport competition from abroad;
Dialogue: 0,0:25:22.64,0:25:26.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think, the adoption of technologies\Nand industrial robots
Dialogue: 0,0:25:26.93,0:25:30.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that pushed-- sort of both of those trends
Dialogue: 0,0:25:30.81,0:25:36.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pushed non–college-educated men \Nout of well-paying middle-class jobs,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:36.02,0:25:38.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either out of the workforce \Nor into lower paying jobs;
Dialogue: 0,0:25:38.61,0:25:43.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think, the erosion of unions and other\Nsort of wage-supporting institutions.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:43.26,0:25:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Basically, all of these trends were \Nunkind to non–college-educated workers,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:46.88,0:25:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which, in an economic sense,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.46,0:25:55.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made them less attractive or necessary \Nas marriage partners to the extent
Dialogue: 0,0:25:55.80,0:26:00.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that one of the things husbands do \Nis bring financial resources to a home.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:00.48,0:26:03.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so that's, I think, part of the story.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:03.11,0:26:07.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But then you've got this, \Nyou know, cyclical effect
Dialogue: 0,0:26:07.12,0:26:12.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the economics make the institution \Nof marriage less attractive or necessary
Dialogue: 0,0:26:12.70,0:26:16.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because women outside \Nthe college-educated class
Dialogue: 0,0:26:16.13,0:26:18.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are doing better compared to men, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:18.14,0:26:20.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they're more likely to be \Nable to do it on their own,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:20.83,0:26:23.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he's less likely to be a stable provider.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:23.18,0:26:26.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you've got this confluence events,\Nand that changes the social norm
Dialogue: 0,0:26:26.58,0:26:29.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because now, more and more \Npeople in your community,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:29.17,0:26:32.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having and raising their kids \Noutside a two-parent home,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:32.30,0:26:34.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then these things amplify each other.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:34.26,0:26:37.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you've got economics and social \Nchanges amplifying each other.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:37.85,0:26:41.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's why this is a cycle \Nthat really needs to be broken.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:41.54,0:26:44.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] So I want to come back \Nto those numbers in just a second.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:44.95,0:26:49.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I need to just mention our \Nirst sponsor, Crossway Books.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:49.80,0:26:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you for sponsoring \NLife & Books & Everything.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:52.35,0:26:57.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And today, I want to mention \Ntheir New Testament theology series.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:57.52,0:27:00.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here's one of the volumes \N[singsong as he shows the book]
Dialogue: 0,0:27:00.62,0:27:03.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on 2nd Corinthians by Dane Ortlund.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:03.35,0:27:07.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So thank you to Crossway for sponsoring LBE
Dialogue: 0,0:27:07.18,0:27:09.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and check out their good books\Nand that new series.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:09.79,0:27:11.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Uh, Melissa, I want to just underscore,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:11.82,0:27:16.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have this nice chart, these numbers \Nyou just gave here on the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:16.15,0:27:20.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So just to say, because this is really \Nimportant, and you just said this.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:20.61,0:27:25.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So four-year college. This is in 1980.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:25.15,0:27:30.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So 90% of children living \Nwith married parents,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.42,0:27:35.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,high school or college in 1980: 83%;\Nless than high school: 80%.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:35.62,0:27:41.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's a really tight—\NBack in 1980, you know, 80-90%.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:41.07,0:27:43.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So whether you had high school, \Nsome high school, college,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:43.70,0:27:45.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're roughly the same.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:45.60,0:27:48.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In statistical terms, it's pretty close.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.42,0:27:52.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, I mean, you just show how\Nfour-year college declines a little bit.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:52.66,0:27:58.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But these other 83[%] to 60[%],
Dialogue: 0,0:27:58.03,0:28:02.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from 80% to 57% is a major decline\Namong those less educated.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:02.69,0:28:05.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you've talked about some \Nof the reasons why that may be
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.58,0:28:11.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and about the “marriageable man” thesis.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:11.68,0:28:13.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so you hit on that there.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:13.27,0:28:17.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to ask the question.\NSo maybe it's twofold.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:17.98,0:28:23.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The women -- because almost all\Nof these single-parent households
Dialogue: 0,0:28:23.78,0:28:27.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are headed by women -- Is it in the case
Dialogue: 0,0:28:27.64,0:28:34.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they're looking to get married\Nand they just can't find the right guy?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:34.75,0:28:38.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or is it the case that the norms are such
Dialogue: 0,0:28:38.95,0:28:42.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that marriage just isn't \Nsomething that they think of.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:42.70,0:28:46.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, you know, follow up is, \Nis there anything we can do about that?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:46.28,0:28:47.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm reminded of a quip…
Dialogue: 0,0:28:47.98,0:28:52.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wrote an article last year\Nfor "First Things,"
Dialogue: 0,0:28:52.10,0:28:55.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is a Catholic journal \Nabout declining fertility rates,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:55.37,0:28:58.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I looked at all of the things they've \Ntried to do in Japan and other places
Dialogue: 0,0:28:58.68,0:29:01.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which have had almost no effect \Non increasing fertility,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:01.83,0:29:03.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and somebody had this line, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:03.83,0:29:09.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Government programs can help you maybe\Nencourage you to have the kids you want,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:09.05,0:29:12.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they won't convince you \Nto have the kids you don't want.”
Dialogue: 0,0:29:12.24,0:29:15.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it’s maybe sort of \Nthe same with marriage.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:15.92,0:29:17.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are some policy things.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:17.65,0:29:20.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you want to get married, they can help it.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:20.38,0:29:25.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if you're not looking for that, \Nwhat can we do?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:25.42,0:29:29.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] This is a really important point,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:29.35,0:29:32.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is that there does \Nnot seem to be evidence
Dialogue: 0,0:29:32.45,0:29:38.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that people in the U.S. have whole-scale \Nrejected the institution of marriage.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:38.62,0:29:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I know there are some groups
Dialogue: 0,0:29:40.16,0:29:43.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that essentially say marriage \Nis a patriarchal institution,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:43.10,0:29:45.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's not compatible \Nwith modern day feminism.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:45.80,0:29:48.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, of course, you're going \Nto have a reduction in marriage.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:48.94,0:29:51.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And let me just say before I go further on this
Dialogue: 0,0:29:51.30,0:29:55.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that let's keep coming back to the fact\Nthat college-educated women,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:55.52,0:30:01.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the most economically successful women \Nperhaps in the history of, like, the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:01.25,0:30:05.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're still getting married and raising \Nour kids in married-\Nparent homes.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:05.34,0:30:11.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I reject the proposition \Nthat marriage is inherently at odds
Dialogue: 0,0:30:11.46,0:30:16.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with any feminist view of women's \Neconomic participation or success.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:16.67,0:30:18.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So then it's the question of:
Dialogue: 0,0:30:18.62,0:30:24.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Well, why has marriage fallen out of favor\Noutside the college-educated class?”
Dialogue: 0,0:30:24.74,0:30:28.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when you look at \Nthe ethnographic evidence
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.82,0:30:33.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the qualitative surveys \Nof low-income couples,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:33.21,0:30:35.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unmarried couples who avail themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.34,0:30:37.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of some of the government programs
Dialogue: 0,0:30:37.37,0:30:40.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or government-funded programs,\Ntheir community-offered programs
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.78,0:30:44.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that work with unmarried parents \Ntrying to strengthen families,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:44.53,0:30:48.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what you see in those interviews \Nand those qualitative studies
Dialogue: 0,0:30:48.85,0:30:52.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that a lot of these couples \Nsay they want to be together.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.07,0:30:55.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we saw this in the \N“Fragile Family” survey, too, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:30:55.25,0:30:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They say they want to be together, \Nthey plan to be together.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:57.07,0:31:01.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then for a whole variety of reasons, \Nthey can't make that work.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:01.49,0:31:07.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This too should really affect our willingness \Nto grapple with this as an equity issue.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.23,0:31:11.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you've got high income couples, \Nhighly educated couples
Dialogue: 0,0:31:11.75,0:31:13.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are managing to achieve
Dialogue: 0,0:31:13.73,0:31:18.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and make this very advantageous\Nstructure work for them,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:18.37,0:31:19.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shouldn't we want more people
Dialogue: 0,0:31:19.93,0:31:23.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who say they WANT to be \Nable to have a two-parent home
Dialogue: 0,0:31:23.43,0:31:25.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a happy, healthy marriage,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:25.22,0:31:27.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shouldn't we help them achieve it,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:27.15,0:31:31.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if they can't pay for high-priced\Nmarriage counseling or whatever?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:31.07,0:31:33.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What do you see? There are real barriers?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:33.50,0:31:35.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's economic instability
Dialogue: 0,0:31:35.90,0:31:39.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that makes someone either less willing \Nto commit to taking care of a family
Dialogue: 0,0:31:39.66,0:31:42.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or makes, you know, \Nthe mother of his children
Dialogue: 0,0:31:42.52,0:31:46.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,less likely to accept him as a resident dad.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:46.03,0:31:46.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:46.90,0:31:50.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] You see substance abuse, \Nyou see mental health challenges.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:50.26,0:31:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You see a lot of these adults grew up in homes
Dialogue: 0,0:31:54.62,0:31:58.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that weren't characterized \Nby stable, healthy marriages,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:58.29,0:32:02.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,growing up in communities where their \Nfriends and cousins and other role models
Dialogue: 0,0:32:02.23,0:32:04.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are not raising their kids in this way.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:04.27,0:32:09.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So here's an opportunity for community \Ngroups and for public funding
Dialogue: 0,0:32:09.14,0:32:12.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and philanthropic groups \Nand for church groups to say:
Dialogue: 0,0:32:12.44,0:32:15.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“What can we do \Nto help strengthen families
Dialogue: 0,0:32:15.28,0:32:18.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to meet them where they are \Nand help make them stronger?”
Dialogue: 0,0:32:18.13,0:32:23.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the same time, creating a \Nsocial convention and expectation
Dialogue: 0,0:32:23.21,0:32:26.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,among children being raised and teenagers now
Dialogue: 0,0:32:26.72,0:32:30.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this is something to strive for.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:30.04,0:32:34.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This will make your household \Nmore economically viable.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:34.13,0:32:36.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It will confer benefits to your children.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:36.62,0:32:39.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's both meeting families \Nwhere they are now.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:39.96,0:32:43.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think, setting our sights on:
Dialogue: 0,0:32:43.08,0:32:46.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“What do we want to accomplish \Ngoing forward and how do we get there?
Dialogue: 0,0:32:46.57,0:32:49.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] That's great. And really helpful.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:49.24,0:32:55.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have a great chapter on boys and dads,\Nand I'm going to ask you a question,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:55.19,0:33:00.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not so much as an economist \N(so you know, if you want to answer it or not)
Dialogue: 0,0:33:00.46,0:33:03.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but as a teacher and as a professor,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:03.36,0:33:06.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and maybe the sort of students \Nthat are coming to University of Maryland
Dialogue: 0,0:33:06.27,0:33:11.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are so self-selecting of such a high \Nelite caliber that you wouldn't see this.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.58,0:33:14.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I just wonder in your years of teaching,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:14.82,0:33:21.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's lots of social science research \Non the ways that boys are falling behind.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:21.61,0:33:28.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we can even say anecdotally, \Nyoung men are drawn to online influencers,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:28.51,0:33:33.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of whom you are sort of helpful, \Nsome of whom are really unhelpful.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:33.74,0:33:36.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just wonder, have you sensed something?
Dialogue: 0,0:33:36.66,0:33:39.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, you work with \Nyoung people of different ages.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:39.32,0:33:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Have you sensed in, \Nyou know, the last generation
Dialogue: 0,0:33:42.24,0:33:46.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there are more challenges \Nor more anxiety, despondency?
Dialogue: 0,0:33:46.23,0:33:52.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What are you, sort of on the ground, sense? \NAnd in particular, about boys and men?
Dialogue: 0,0:33:52.37,0:34:02.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] I think the single biggest \Nthing that gets me down as a professor,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:02.22,0:34:10.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and, you know, I've been working with \Nthe young adults now for almost 20 years.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:10.44,0:34:17.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There really is, you just see it, \Njust a widespread anxiety among them
Dialogue: 0,0:34:17.36,0:34:18.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(men and women alike)
Dialogue: 0,0:34:18.81,0:34:25.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I just I don't I don't think-- \NI certainly didn't notice it 20 years ago.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:25.41,0:34:29.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, I'm very aware of the fact \Nthat I've been a parent.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:29.71,0:34:32.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so now I see these 20-year-olds.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:32.09,0:34:34.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is like closer and closer \Nto my own children.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:34.72,0:34:37.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right. Uh-huh.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:37.57,0:34:39.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] But the amount of kids, \NI mean, KIDS, right? They're young adults.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:39.19,0:34:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They’re like 18 to 22 who come to my office.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.58,0:34:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Often--Like you know, young men, too, \NI'll call them in, and I'll say,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:48.46,0:34:50.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“What happened? \Nhappened on the test,” right?
Dialogue: 0,0:34:50.51,0:34:53.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Like, what happened? \NDo you come to class? Like, what?”
Dialogue: 0,0:34:53.39,0:34:56.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they're big guys, \Nand they have their hoodie up,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:56.36,0:34:57.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they look like they don't care.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:57.82,0:34:59.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:59.05,0:35:01.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] And then they'll start crying.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:01.81,0:35:05.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they'll be like-- You know, \NI'm not I'm not making this up, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:35:05.86,0:35:07.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And all of these anecdotes \Nare part of the reason
Dialogue: 0,0:35:07.74,0:35:10.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why I felt so like I had to write this book,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:10.91,0:35:12.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though I don't tell \Nthese anecdotes in the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:12.56,0:35:14.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They'll be like, you know, “My parents \Njust announced they're getting divorced.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:14.99,0:35:17.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think they thought it was okay \Nbecause we're at college now,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:17.57,0:35:20.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I'm having a tough semester.”
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.12,0:35:24.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or you know, “My grandma raised me, \Nand it was just me and my grandma
Dialogue: 0,0:35:24.24,0:35:26.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and my grandma died, \Nand I'm having a tough semester.”
Dialogue: 0,0:35:26.52,0:35:31.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or “I can't figure out what I'm \Ngoing to do with the rest of my life,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:31.17,0:35:32.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm really stressed
Dialogue: 0,0:35:32.11,0:35:34.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm supposed to be interviewing\Nfor jobs, and I just don't know.”
Dialogue: 0,0:35:34.86,0:35:38.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And just the amount of sadness \Nand anxiety among young people
Dialogue: 0,0:35:38.27,0:35:40.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who have their whole lives ahead of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:40.77,0:35:41.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:41.87,0:35:44.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Right? \NI think just should be filled with energy.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:44.85,0:35:46.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I don't want to overtell this story
Dialogue: 0,0:35:46.79,0:35:51.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there is something that's also \Nreally energizing about being among young people.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:51.56,0:35:55.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I just, I worry about them. I do.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:55.36,0:35:59.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I worry about them, and I wish as adults, \Nwe could do more to make them feel
Dialogue: 0,0:35:59.77,0:36:04.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,comfortable and confident and safe \Nand secure, and, like, it's okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:04.49,0:36:09.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Do you think boys \Nin particular are wondering--
Dialogue: 0,0:36:09.57,0:36:10.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I suppose, men and women,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.82,0:36:16.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you know, you talk about\Nthe incredible importance of dads.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:16.79,0:36:22.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, you know, that wonderful story \Nabout the dad (was it in Louisiana?)
Dialogue: 0,0:36:22.70,0:36:26.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who showed up at school, \Nand gang participation plummeted.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:26.57,0:36:32.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And even some of the metrics you give with—\NIt even seems that boys in the home
Dialogue: 0,0:36:32.70,0:36:36.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are more affected by the lack \Nof a father than girls are.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:36.92,0:36:42.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I mean, again, this comes\Nout of really rigorous econometric studies.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:42.52,0:36:44.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We see that the gender gap favoring girls
Dialogue: 0,0:36:44.97,0:36:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(meaning girls are now less likely \Nto get in trouble at school;
Dialogue: 0,0:36:48.00,0:36:50.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they've always been, \Nbut that gap has widened;
Dialogue: 0,0:36:50.28,0:36:54.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're more likely to graduate high school.\Nthey're more likely to go to college).
Dialogue: 0,0:36:54.29,0:36:57.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Again, girls are more likely \Nto hit all these markers of success.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:57.44,0:37:01.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This has been happening over the same \Ndecade that we've had a tremendous rise
Dialogue: 0,0:37:01.45,0:37:06.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the share of kids growing up \Nwithout dads in their home.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:06.32,0:37:09.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And researchers, economists \Nhave worked very hard
Dialogue: 0,0:37:09.24,0:37:15.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to establish a causal link here showing \Nthat that gender gap that favors girls
Dialogue: 0,0:37:15.38,0:37:20.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is wider among kids coming from mother-\Nonly homes than two-parent homes.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:20.45,0:37:23.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then economists have gone further\Nand looked at the mechanisms
Dialogue: 0,0:37:23.92,0:37:28.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and shown that the absence \Nof additional parental inputs,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:28.85,0:37:33.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,meaning time, nurturing parenting \Nthat kids from single-parent homes get.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:33.80,0:37:36.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Again, not because single moms \Naren't great parents.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:36.81,0:37:40.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's because they don't have a second \Nparent in the house to help, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:37:40.29,0:37:43.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] My wife is always saying, \N“I don't know how I would do this.”
Dialogue: 0,0:37:43.84,0:37:45.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I certainly don't know how I would do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:45.98,0:37:48.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] So this isn't \Nto impugn single moms.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:48.98,0:37:52.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Again, it's to say that there are more \Nparenting resources in two-parent homes,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:52.83,0:37:56.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we see that lower level of parenting\Ninputs and nurturing parenthood
Dialogue: 0,0:37:56.50,0:38:01.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has a large, larger effect on \Nthe behaviors and outcomes of boys.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:01.99,0:38:06.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to be careful because I don't think \Nwe should erroneously conclude from that
Dialogue: 0,0:38:06.44,0:38:08.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that girls aren't necessarily struggling.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:08.60,0:38:11.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But girls might be struggling\Nin different ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:11.30,0:38:15.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whereas boys, again, we know on average \Nare more likely to express their struggles
Dialogue: 0,0:38:15.97,0:38:20.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by acting out in ways that are going to get \Nthem suspended, in trouble with the law,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:20.05,0:38:24.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all sorts of things that could really \Nimpede their educational and economic—
Dialogue: 0,0:38:24.39,0:38:27.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] They have outward\Naggressive, noticeable, public--
Dialogue: 0,0:38:27.43,0:38:29.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Again, on average, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:38:29.30,0:38:30.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Uh huh.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:30.46,0:38:32.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] And so that's bad for them.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:32.53,0:38:35.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This, too, is why this is \NSO important to intervene,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:35.35,0:38:38.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like, from all angles and break this
Dialogue: 0,0:38:38.52,0:38:41.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because let's get back to why \Nwe think there's a reduction
Dialogue: 0,0:38:41.28,0:38:44.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in marriage outside the college-educated class.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:44.00,0:38:45.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Men are either viewing themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:38:45.78,0:38:50.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as less likely to be stable, \Ngood providers for family.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:50.06,0:38:52.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Women are less likely to view them that way.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:52.27,0:38:55.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then you have millions of boys being \Nraised without dads in their house.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:55.72,0:38:57.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That actually makes them less likely
Dialogue: 0,0:38:57.63,0:38:59.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be in a position to be, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:59.100,0:39:03.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stably employed, emotionally stable, \Nsupportive husbands and fathers.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:03.61,0:39:06.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this gets back to something \Nelse you brought up with.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:06.65,0:39:10.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, the elite class is \Nraising their kids in this way.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:10.38,0:39:17.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And frankly, it's I mean, not only does it \Nreject the overwhelming evidence and data
Dialogue: 0,0:39:17.25,0:39:20.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,showing that kids benefit from \Nhaving dads in their homes,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:20.20,0:39:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it's extraordinarily elitist and \Nobnoxious, quite frankly, to say:
Dialogue: 0,0:39:24.28,0:39:29.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“No, my kid benefits from having me \Nin the home because I'm a great guy
Dialogue: 0,0:39:29.31,0:39:31.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I can read to them \Nand really equip them.”
Dialogue: 0,0:39:31.74,0:39:37.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But do we really expect the, you know, 40% \Nof kids who are born to less-educated dads
Dialogue: 0,0:39:37.11,0:39:39.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to benefit from their fathers?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:39.56,0:39:41.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like, “Let's give up on those guys
Dialogue: 0,0:39:41.56,0:39:45.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and just assume a government \Nprogram is going to make up for them”?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:45.78,0:39:49.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I just I refuse to resign \Nourselves to that view of society.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:49.98,0:39:51.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.\NOh, I hadn't thought of it that way,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:51.66,0:39:55.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there is a level of self-aggrandizement.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:55.36,0:39:56.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Of course, I'M valuable.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:56.76,0:40:00.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wouldn't want MY kids to be without, \Nbecause I'M a very special parent.”
Dialogue: 0,0:40:00.58,0:40:05.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, we're all probably all probably capable \Nof being better parents than we think,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:05.19,0:40:08.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we're probably less special \Nthan we think at the same time.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:08.40,0:40:12.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Kevin, this is analogous \Nto the conversation about college.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:12.22,0:40:16.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we know that people with a college \Ndegree do better in the labor market.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:16.92,0:40:22.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's a push to try and get \Nmore people through college, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:40:22.24,0:40:25.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have lots of policy interventions\Naimed at doing that.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:25.64,0:40:29.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there's a group of people that says, \N“Well, not everybody needs college.”
Dialogue: 0,0:40:29.07,0:40:31.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the critics of that view always say:
Dialogue: 0,0:40:31.42,0:40:34.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“But ask them if they're \Nsending THEIR kid to college.”
Dialogue: 0,0:40:34.21,0:40:35.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:40:35.20,0:40:36.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right. Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:36.42,0:40:38.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] It’s a similar thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:38.05,0:40:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like, “Well, YOU don't need two parents, \Nand YOUR kid doesn't go to college.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:41.76,0:40:45.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But by the way, I'M going to shower \Ntwo parents’ worth of resources on MY kid
Dialogue: 0,0:40:45.42,0:40:47.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and make sure THEY go \Nto a four-year college.”
Dialogue: 0,0:40:47.72,0:40:51.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, I wonder-- \NI would love to-- I mean, if you're willing,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:51.25,0:40:55.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how does this affect how you are as a mom?
Dialogue: 0,0:40:55.03,0:40:58.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If your kids are anything like my kids, \Nthey are not going to read your book.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:58.73,0:40:59.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY laughs]
Dialogue: 0,0:40:59.70,0:41:02.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Maybe your kids\Nare really high over achievers,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:02.51,0:41:05.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I've written some stuff,\Nand I try to gift it.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:05.46,0:41:07.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“No, I'm not interested in it.”
Dialogue: 0,0:41:07.38,0:41:12.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this is informing and is shaped by \Nand probably downstream in some ways
Dialogue: 0,0:41:12.39,0:41:13.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from your own parenting.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:13.88,0:41:15.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What sort of messages,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:15.48,0:41:20.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,given the expertise you have in this area, \Nare you trying to give to your own kids?
Dialogue: 0,0:41:20.88,0:41:27.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] To be overt, I am very aware \Nof the fact that my kids are growing up,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:27.51,0:41:29.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not only in a two-parent \Nhousehold themselves,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:29.88,0:41:33.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but surrounded by people who are \Nbeing raised in two-parent household--
Dialogue: 0,0:41:33.48,0:41:34.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Which is huge.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:34.94,0:41:40.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>KEARNEY] because that's what it looks like\Nin, you know, sort of well-off community,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:40.14,0:41:41.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is where we live.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:41.46,0:41:44.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, I'm very open about the fact
Dialogue: 0,0:41:44.46,0:41:48.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I recognize my kids are being \Nraised in a very privileged setting.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:48.70,0:41:54.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so it's you know, kids absorb\Nwhat they see around them.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:54.18,0:41:59.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And again, we know this from evidence, \Neven though it also is incredibly intuitive
Dialogue: 0,0:41:59.31,0:42:03.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that kids’ world view is shaped \Nby what they experience.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:03.25,0:42:09.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I mean, I probably should talk about it\Nmore explicitly, let's say, with my kids,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:09.86,0:42:14.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I don't really worry \Nthat my daughters are thinking
Dialogue: 0,0:42:14.58,0:42:17.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that maybe they would become \Nyoung unmarried mothers.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:17.88,0:42:22.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's-- I mean, I'm not foolish \Nto think that things don't happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.95,0:42:24.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right, for sure.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:24.68,0:42:26.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>[KEARNEY] But that's not really something
Dialogue: 0,0:42:26.78,0:42:31.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they observe very often in the people around\Nthem that they're being raised with, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.57,0:42:37.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so they just sort of, by default, \Nexpect that they're going to go to college.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:37.39,0:42:40.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also, you know, interesting\Nfor me as a mom,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:40.70,0:42:46.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they see me and my sisters \Nall working and having careers.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:46.54,0:42:49.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I assume that that affects \Nthe way they think of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:49.68,0:42:53.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, my daughters also think I work too much,\Nand they don't want to work as much…
Dialogue: 0,0:42:53.54,0:42:54.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:42:54.54,0:42:57.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>[KEARNEY] …which is also fair, right?\NLike they’re definitely--
Dialogue: 0,0:42:57.66,0:43:01.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that was something actually, I grew up \Nin a different generation than my mom,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:01.97,0:43:04.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where I assumed I was going \Nto work and have a career,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:04.96,0:43:06.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but then, thinking of my own mom,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:06.58,0:43:10.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I also assumed I was going to have \Nkids and be a really involved mom
Dialogue: 0,0:43:10.03,0:43:12.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and there was some conflict there.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:12.13,0:43:14.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think about that a lot, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:14.02,0:43:20.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how our kids see us and our communities\Naffect what the aspirations…
Dialogue: 0,0:43:20.16,0:43:21.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah. Absolutely.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:21.91,0:43:24.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] …you know, \Nthey have for themselves.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:24.39,0:43:26.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] So, maybe \Nthat's a good transition
Dialogue: 0,0:43:26.58,0:43:28.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to sort of a last line of questioning.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:28.61,0:43:33.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I do want to— Let's see. I’ll mention one \Nother sponsor, Desiring God, new book:
Dialogue: 0,0:43:33.68,0:43:37.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Foundations for Lifelong Learning,\NEducation, and Serious Joy” by John Piper,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:37.96,0:43:41.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,available next week when this is recorded.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:41.53,0:43:45.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So check that out. Always great \Nto see what John is writing there
Dialogue: 0,0:43:45.56,0:43:47.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about education and serious joy.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:47.43,0:43:48.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you to Desiring God.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:48.100,0:43:54.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's a great transition because you \Nused a phrase a number of times in the book,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:54.93,0:43:57.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is really what you're talking about,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:57.71,0:44:03.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“social norms” because there are \Nlots of things as an economist,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:03.18,0:44:07.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you think about different policies, \Nand those things do matter.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:07.46,0:44:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're not irrelevant.\NThey can nudge people.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:09.88,0:44:15.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They can make certain decisions \Nmore or less likely or palatable.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:15.16,0:44:19.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But then you have this big bucket\Nof, well, social norms.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:19.92,0:44:22.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the things I underlined \Nthroughout the book
Dialogue: 0,0:44:22.70,0:44:27.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you would often mention\Nas a kind of aside, you'd say,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:27.19,0:44:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Well, Asian families \Nare the exception to this.”
Dialogue: 0,0:44:31.27,0:44:33.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I couldn't help but say,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:33.64,0:44:36.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Well, there are some \Nvery strong social norms,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:36.60,0:44:40.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's not just a stereotype.”
Dialogue: 0,0:44:40.34,0:44:42.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, there's data to support that.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:42.34,0:44:47.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very strong social norms about marriage,\Nabout education, about all these things.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:47.24,0:44:55.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So is there a possibility to affect \Nsocial norms? How do we go about it?
Dialogue: 0,0:44:55.03,0:45:01.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because it seems like the biggest thing—
Dialogue: 0,0:45:01.50,0:45:02.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We can do lots of things around the edges \Nto try to help push people
Dialogue: 0,0:45:02.85,0:45:07.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the right direction for the well-being \Nof society and their families and kids.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:07.57,0:45:10.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet, social norms are very—
Dialogue: 0,0:45:10.15,0:45:15.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's no program to change \Na community’s social norms.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:15.77,0:45:24.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] This is why this is a hard issue \Nfor like economists and policy wonks
Dialogue: 0,0:45:24.80,0:45:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because, like you said, we could do \Nall sorts of tinkering around the edges.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:26.22,0:45:29.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can propose (and I have proposed) \Nchanges to the tax code
Dialogue: 0,0:45:29.34,0:45:33.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that would be less punishing, \Nfrankly, of marriage.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:33.22,0:45:39.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are definitely \Ntinkering policy things—
Dialogue: 0,0:45:39.85,0:45:40.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] If you get \Nmore tax breaks for having kids.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:40.67,0:45:41.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have nine kids, so I welcome\Nas many as you can get. [chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:45:41.94,0:45:44.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Yeah, I'm all for \Nan expanded child tax credit.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:44.05,0:45:45.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm all for a child allowance.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:45.94,0:45:49.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm certainly for what I've referred to \Nas a secondary earner tax deduction
Dialogue: 0,0:45:49.68,0:45:55.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so that we don't penalize married couples \Nor two workers when they get married.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:55.02,0:45:57.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have all sorts of ways \Nwe could tinker around the edges,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:57.94,0:45:59.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think those will, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:59.84,0:46:02.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like you said, nudge some people \Nand have incremental effects.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:02.57,0:46:05.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But really turning this around is going to \Nrequire a change in social conventions,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:06.88,0:46:11.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and now you're moving further and further \Naway from the economist policy tool kit.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:11.03,0:46:13.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But again, you know, some critics are like:
Dialogue: 0,0:46:13.45,0:46:15.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Oh, she tells us this big problem \Nand then there's no real solutions.”
Dialogue: 0,0:46:15.78,0:46:19.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in some sense, one of the things \NI'm trying to accomplish with this book is,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:19.20,0:46:21.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Here, I know there's a problem…
Dialogue: 0,0:46:21.25,0:46:22.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:22.43,0:46:26.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] …Now, all of you who do things\Nmore than just tinker with the tax code,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:26.50,0:46:28.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's address this together.” This is--
Dialogue: 0,0:46:28.91,0:46:32.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] This is pastors \Nand communities and other, yeah--
Dialogue: 0,0:46:32.70,0:46:37.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] There are things we could do.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:37.26,0:46:38.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, that's on the one hand.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:38.38,0:46:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the other hand, \N(because I am an economist,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:40.16,0:46:40.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's how we do things:\N“on the one hand, on the other hand”),
Dialogue: 0,0:46:40.86,0:46:47.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Social norms are surprisingly malleable, \Nand they can also change very quickly.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:47.28,0:46:52.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we have, again, \Ngood social science evidence
Dialogue: 0,0:46:52.06,0:46:56.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,showing that things like role models \Nmatters (we were just discussing);
Dialogue: 0,0:46:56.18,0:46:58.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things like media messaging matters.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:58.85,0:47:00.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me give you a couple examples.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:00.53,0:47:03.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Eliana La Ferrara and her colleagues
Dialogue: 0,0:47:03.57,0:47:09.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have shown that in Brazil,\Nwhen soap operas came on TV—
Dialogue: 0,0:47:09.30,0:47:10.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is sort of amazing--
Dialogue: 0,0:47:10.55,0:47:15.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using variation in where they \Nwere viewed at different timing,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:15.86,0:47:27.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they document a causal link, exposure \Nto the smaller families and divorce on—
Dialogue: 0,0:47:27.61,0:47:28.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, like in those communities \Nthat saw those media images,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:28.43,0:47:33.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that led to a change in family formation, \Nan increase in divorce, fewer kids.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:33.56,0:47:45.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like people responded by \Nemulating what they saw on TV.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:45.63,0:47:46.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In a very different setting, my colleague \NPhil Levin and I looked at what happened
Dialogue: 0,0:47:46.16,0:47:46.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when the “16 and Pregnant” and \N“Teen Mom” franchise came on MTV
Dialogue: 0,0:47:46.78,0:47:47.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, talk about that.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:47.56,0:47:48.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That was a really \Ninteresting point of the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:48.23,0:47:49.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] This is crazy.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:49.08,0:47:49.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All of a sudden, one year, \Nteen childbearing in the U.S.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:49.98,0:47:52.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went down by way more \Nthan it had been falling.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:52.24,0:47:55.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So teen childbearing \Nhad been falling in the U.S.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:55.11,0:47:57.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then one year, \Nthere was a really large drop.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:57.76,0:48:00.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we had studied this issue
Dialogue: 0,0:48:00.84,0:48:02.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enough to know [that] it wasn't \Nthe unemployment rate.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:02.44,0:48:03.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It wasn't sex ed.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:03.43,0:48:04.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What could this be?
Dialogue: 0,0:48:04.60,0:48:13.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It turns out that when this show came on TV,\Nwhich millions of teenagers watched,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:13.35,0:48:14.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was a pretty realistic depiction \Nof how unglamorous it was to be pregnant at 16,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:14.06,0:48:18.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] \N“16 and Pregnant” is the MTV show.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:18.23,0:48:18.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] “16 and Pregnant.”
Dialogue: 0,0:48:18.100,0:48:20.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we had an R.A. [research assistant?]
Dialogue: 0,0:48:20.25,0:48:22.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,watch all the shows \Nand code up what happens.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:22.45,0:48:24.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, what happens? \NMost of the boyfriends don't stick around.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:24.100,0:48:28.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most of these young girls are stuck with \Na crying baby in the middle of the night.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:28.11,0:48:30.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like, you might have thought that people \Nwould know being a teen mom was hard,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:30.58,0:48:32.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but apparently, this was really salient.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:32.56,0:48:34.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in those communities
Dialogue: 0,0:48:34.06,0:48:41.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where more people were watching \NMTV before this show even came on
Dialogue: 0,0:48:41.05,0:48:41.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(so MTV just had more market \Npenetration in certain areas).
Dialogue: 0,0:48:41.73,0:48:43.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When this show came on the air,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:43.58,0:48:47.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you saw a larger reduction in teen \Nchildbearing in those places.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:47.19,0:48:52.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so the idea here is: Gosh, this show \Nreally changed hearts and minds
Dialogue: 0,0:48:52.09,0:48:54.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in ways that affected behaviors \Nthat affected birth rates.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:54.96,0:48:58.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we got access \Nto Google and Twitter data,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:58.68,0:49:00.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you see that when these episodes aired,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:00.94,0:49:04.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there would be a spike in Google \Nsearching for how to get birth control.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:04.93,0:49:05.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There would be a spike in tweets \Nmentioning this show and birth control.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:05.89,0:49:08.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there was this idea \Nthat people saw this show
Dialogue: 0,0:49:08.14,0:49:16.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and decided they didn't want \Nto become pregnant as a teenager.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:16.21,0:49:20.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which again, it's just really amazing \Nbecause it validates this idea
Dialogue: 0,0:49:20.69,0:49:25.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that exposure to content and ideas\Naffects people's attitudes
Dialogue: 0,0:49:25.56,0:49:27.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in ways that affects their behaviors,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:27.16,0:49:31.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even in the really complicated domains of \Nmarriage, family formation, and having kids.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:31.28,0:49:34.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] It was really fascinating.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:34.21,0:49:35.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've heard of the show.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:35.75,0:49:39.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can't say I've watched it before \Nor that we have a lot of MTV on.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:39.73,0:49:43.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But yeah, I mean, you did the homework
Dialogue: 0,0:49:43.26,0:49:46.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to show there's probably\Nsome connection there.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:46.02,0:49:49.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You say at the end of the book:
Dialogue: 0,0:49:49.25,0:49:53.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Here are things we should do \Nto address the challenges I've laid out,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:53.56,0:49:56.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then some things \NI do not think we should do.”
Dialogue: 0,0:49:56.36,0:49:57.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And these are good.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:57.51,0:50:00.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I want to highlight two \Nbecause I just wonder:
Dialogue: 0,0:50:00.56,0:50:02.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do we do both of these things?
Dialogue: 0,0:50:02.77,0:50:05.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So here's what you say we should do:
Dialogue: 0,0:50:05.88,0:50:09.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Work to restore and foster a norm \Nof two-parent homes for children.”
Dialogue: 0,0:50:09.66,0:50:10.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Good.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:10.46,0:50:12.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Here's one thing we should not do:
Dialogue: 0,0:50:12.97,0:50:15.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Stigmatize single mothers \Nor encourage unhealthy marriages.”
Dialogue: 0,0:50:16.04,0:50:18.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I agree with both of those things.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:18.13,0:50:23.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here's what I wrestle with a lot, \Nand I wrestle with it as a pastor
Dialogue: 0,0:50:23.00,0:50:24.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it’s stigma.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:24.82,0:50:28.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we think of stigma \Nas universally a bad thing,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:28.68,0:50:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and yet we want to stigmatize\Nracism or all sorts of things.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:34.00,0:50:39.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are bad behaviors that our culture \Nand our communities do a lot to say:
Dialogue: 0,0:50:39.36,0:50:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“That's a bad thing to do.”
Dialogue: 0,0:50:43.17,0:50:49.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think as a pastor-- and I don't \Nknow what your views are on this,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:49.42,0:50:52.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I'm not presuming \Nthat you share these personal views.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:52.72,0:50:56.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, I believe the Bible says \Nthat sex before marriage is wrong,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:56.91,0:51:00.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also the Bible says \Nyou can be forgiven for that.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:00.76,0:51:02.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's not the end of your life.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:02.76,0:51:06.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so, on the one hand, I think \Nabout our church community,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:06.91,0:51:09.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which has a pretty thick culture
Dialogue: 0,0:51:09.46,0:51:11.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what you described, \Nyou know, your neighborhood,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:11.99,0:51:13.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are certain norms.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:13.56,0:51:18.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are certain things that it just \Nlooks normal to have a mom and a dad.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:18.69,0:51:24.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It looks normal to work hard at school.\NIt looks normal to not do drugs.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:24.18,0:51:26.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[It looks normal] to pursue education.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:26.42,0:51:28.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All of these things are good.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:28.34,0:51:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so there would be if somebody in \Nour church, you know, was 16 and pregnant,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:34.00,0:51:37.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it would raise eyebrows and \Nthere'd be something of a stigma.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:37.24,0:51:39.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So on the one hand, I wanna say—
Dialogue: 0,0:51:39.80,0:51:41.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] But also hope you guys \Nwould love her and embrace her
Dialogue: 0,0:51:41.97,0:51:43.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and pay for her diapers and--
Dialogue: 0,0:51:43.13,0:51:44.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yes, absolutely.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:44.02,0:51:46.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what I'm getting to is:
Dialogue: 0,0:51:46.14,0:51:53.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do we do it so that the behavior, \Nlike in our case, would be stigmatized,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:53.83,0:51:57.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the person is not cast off.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:57.10,0:52:00.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in fact, somebody said,\Nthis really just helped open my eyes.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:00.45,0:52:04.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course, I should-- You know, \Nit's not even out-of-wedlock births.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:04.17,0:52:08.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, we should, from my perspective, \Napplaud the mom who is going through
Dialogue: 0,0:52:08.45,0:52:14.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and having the child and working \Nto, you know, sacrifice so much.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:14.85,0:52:17.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We want to applaud that decision, I do.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:17.87,0:52:23.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's always this push and pull \Nof how to establish norms,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:23.65,0:52:26.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because norms say something is normal.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:26.28,0:52:32.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But then when something is outside of \Nthat normal, as you were right to interject,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:32.20,0:52:37.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah, I want our community to love \Nthat mom and sign up for meals,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:37.68,0:52:40.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I know they would \Nand buy diapers and do all of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:40.87,0:52:42.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do you think about \Nthat as an economist
Dialogue: 0,0:52:42.75,0:52:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or even just as a mom or as—
Dialogue: 0,0:52:44.24,0:52:45.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] As a person? [chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:52:45.95,0:52:46.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:46.87,0:52:49.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] I mean, I think you \Ncompletely put your finger
Dialogue: 0,0:52:49.84,0:52:55.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on probably the hardest needle \NI'm trying to thread
Dialogue: 0,0:52:55.11,0:52:57.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by saying those two things.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:57.19,0:53:01.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And somebody said directly to me, \Nlike, “We DO need to bring back shame.”
Dialogue: 0,0:53:01.08,0:53:07.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there's, you know, there's a role for it.\NSo here's what I mean when I say that.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:07.41,0:53:10.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'll give you examples of \Nthings on those two points--
Dialogue: 0,0:53:10.46,0:53:11.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Mm-hmm.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:11.44,0:53:12.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] that I would and wouldn’t do.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:12.83,0:53:18.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the stigma of single moms and \Ntheir kids that basically in the past,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:18.51,0:53:21.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made them outcast from society,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:21.16,0:53:24.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's all agree we should \Nnever go back to that, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:24.56,0:53:30.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We do not want women feeling like they're \Ntrapped in abusive marriages, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:30.04,0:53:34.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we do not want children \Nand their single parents
Dialogue: 0,0:53:34.58,0:53:38.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be even more deprived of resources
Dialogue: 0,0:53:38.89,0:53:41.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by punishing them for where they are.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:41.04,0:53:45.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] You're 18, and you get \Na second-class life for the rest of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:45.80,0:53:47.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Yeah. And here you are.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:47.50,0:53:52.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So those are terribly counterproductive \Napproaches that we should never go back to.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:52.39,0:53:54.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the same time, I mean,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:55.58,0:53:59.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not going to totally point my finger \Nat like Disney Plus or Netflix or Hollywood.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:59.84,0:54:05.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you know, the television portrayal \Nof families has gone so far to say:
Dialogue: 0,0:54:05.99,0:54:08.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Hey, it's totally fine.”
Dialogue: 0,0:54:08.24,0:54:11.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, this one's being raised \Nwith her mom and her new boyfriend,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:11.80,0:54:15.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but her old boyfriend is still they're \Nall good friends and it's awesome.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:15.75,0:54:20.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's, like, such a farce.\NThat's not really what it looks like.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:20.27,0:54:23.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So let's be honest that, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:23.93,0:54:28.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we could accept and love \Nall sorts of family arrangements,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:28.24,0:54:33.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,while still being honest about \Nwhat is best for kids in particular.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:33.42,0:54:37.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And by the way, it's not great for single \Nparents who tend to be under-resourced
Dialogue: 0,0:54:37.55,0:54:39.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be doing this by themselves.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:39.04,0:54:41.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, the kinds of things about fostering norms,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:41.89,0:54:47.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for instance, a lot of the social \Nservice agencies or programs
Dialogue: 0,0:54:47.95,0:54:52.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for, you know, single moms and \Ntheir kids, the dads will tell you this:
Dialogue: 0,0:54:52.60,0:54:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You go into those buildings, \Nand the picture,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:54.62,0:54:59.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like, the logo is basically a mom and \Nher daughter, or a mom and her child.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:59.47,0:55:00.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:00.40,0:55:02.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] \NThere's not even a dad in the picture, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:02.95,0:55:04.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right, that’s a norm.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:04.52,0:55:06.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] And so these responsible\Nfatherhood programs walk in,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:06.39,0:55:08.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they're like, the dad \Nisn't even in the picture.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:08.59,0:55:12.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In an effort to being sort of \Nwelcoming of the reality
Dialogue: 0,0:55:12.42,0:55:16.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a lot of these programs\Nserve single moms and their kids,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:16.20,0:55:19.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's not even an expectation \Nof a dad being around.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:19.02,0:55:23.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that kind of subtlety, \NI think matters, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:23.34,0:55:25.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I was even talking to a woman
Dialogue: 0,0:55:25.44,0:55:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who runs a program for lifting up \Nsingle moms, and I said to her:
Dialogue: 0,0:55:29.60,0:55:31.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,“Well, you're part of the solution.\NYou're working to strengthen families.”
Dialogue: 0,0:55:31.99,0:55:33.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she stopped, and very thoughtfully,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:33.71,0:55:38.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,she said, “But I've never thought to ask, \Nwhere's the dad? Why isn't he around?”
Dialogue: 0,0:55:38.50,0:55:41.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's a bit of a mind shift, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:41.21,0:55:43.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To say, let's think about\Nstrengthening families.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:43.31,0:55:48.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's talk about the importance \Nof dads, how they can contribute
Dialogue: 0,0:55:48.31,0:55:57.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without stigmatizing the one \Nparent and their child so strongly
Dialogue: 0,0:55:57.02,0:55:59.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they feel like they're \Nnot enveloped in support.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:59.30,0:56:02.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Right, yeah,\Nand I think you said earlier,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:02.60,0:56:07.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is going to happen at \Na personal level and community level.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:07.30,0:56:11.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, I think of a number of women \Nin our church who volunteer
Dialogue: 0,0:56:11.12,0:56:15.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a Christian Young Lives \Nprogram that reaches out
Dialogue: 0,0:56:15.20,0:56:19.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and my younger daughters have volunteered\Nto do some of the babysitting
Dialogue: 0,0:56:19.47,0:56:21.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so these single moms can get training,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:21.14,0:56:24.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and, you know, in our context, \Nit’s Bible studies and other things.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:24.29,0:56:29.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's lots of people \Nwho do care about these things.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:29.22,0:56:30.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And anybody listening who does,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:30.30,0:56:35.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are things and good programs that \Ncan make a difference and help with these.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:35.26,0:56:37.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So my last question for you.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:37.92,0:56:40.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you so much \Nfor writing this book, Melissa.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:40.46,0:56:44.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If any of my kids go \Nto the University of Maryland,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:44.10,0:56:46.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not on their list, but if they do, \NI'll tell them to take a class.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:46.35,0:56:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY, laughing] Great!
Dialogue: 0,0:56:47.60,0:56:49.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] You're doing undergrads.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:49.06,0:56:51.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What do you have coming up next?
Dialogue: 0,0:56:51.19,0:56:54.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What are you working on? \NAcademic books, popular books?
Dialogue: 0,0:56:54.84,0:56:56.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What are you doing?
Dialogue: 0,0:56:56.10,0:57:01.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hopefully, you know, some of the negative \Nfeedback you're probably getting on this book
Dialogue: 0,0:57:01.62,0:57:05.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn't keep you away from it \Nbecause it's really helpful.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:05.30,0:57:06.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] I appreciate that.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:06.93,0:57:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will say, because I wrapped up \Nthis manuscript, you know, some time ago
Dialogue: 0,0:57:09.88,0:57:11.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before it actually shows up in print.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:11.46,0:57:12.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] In COVID, I think.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:12.47,0:57:15.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Yeah. Over the past two years,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:15.65,0:57:19.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've been working a lot trying \Nto understand the decline in fertility,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:19.48,0:57:23.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is another, you know, \Nnot uncontroversial topic.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:23.22,0:57:23.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Uh-huh.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:23.82,0:57:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] But again, there's a lot \Nof economic causes and consequences
Dialogue: 0,0:57:28.13,0:57:31.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the decline in fertility,\Nand so that's another one
Dialogue: 0,0:57:31.15,0:57:35.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where setting aside all sorts \Nof moral or value judgments
Dialogue: 0,0:57:35.32,0:57:37.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about how we think somebody \Nshould live their lives.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:37.65,0:57:42.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The fact that in high income countries, \Nwe are now below replacement level,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:42.17,0:57:46.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fertility is going to pose a lot of challenges \Non our economic and social structures.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:47.83,0:57:49.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Good.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:49.01,0:57:52.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] Studying that is, you know,\Nwhat I've been thinking about.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:52.46,0:57:54.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Well, I will read that.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:54.04,0:57:55.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY, laughing] Okay, great.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:55.43,0:57:57.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Glad for you to write that.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:57.16,0:57:58.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's really important.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:58.11,0:58:01.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Again, talking to Melissa, \N“The Two-Parent Privilege:
Dialogue: 0,0:58:01.23,0:58:04.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How Americans Stopped Getting \NMarried and Started Falling Behind.”
Dialogue: 0,0:58:04.61,0:58:06.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you so much for taking time
Dialogue: 0,0:58:06.56,0:58:10.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and working before we started this\Nto get all the mics and headsets.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:10.08,0:58:12.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And thank you to your husband.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:12.08,0:58:13.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[KEARNEY] It was a pleasure.\NThanks for having me.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:13.63,0:58:15.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,>>[DEYOUNG] Yeah, thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:15.26,0:58:19.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So thank you for listening \Nto Life & Books & Everything,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:19.04,0:58:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a ministry of Clearly Reformed.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:21.46,0:58:25.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can get episodes like this and \Nother resources at clearlyreformed.org
Dialogue: 0,0:58:25.91,0:58:30.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Until next time glorify God,\Nenjoy him forever, read a good book.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:30.78,0:58:40.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,♪ [up-tempo closing music] ♪
Dialogue: 0,0:58:40.74,0:58:42.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[END]\N