<i>preroll music</i>

Herald Angel: What does Big Brother see
while he is watching?

Simon Menner is talking to you about this:

"Uncovering Images from the secret Stasi Archives."

He was born 1978 in southern Germany,

now he lives and works in Berlin.

He does a lot of stuff with photography

and history. And he has been researching

for three years in Stasi files and images.

And he is going to show us why this is

still relevant today, or even

more relevant than ever. 
Give him a warm welcome.

<i>applause</i>

Simon: thank you.

I was told to use this rather than the

lavalier mic, so I hope it works.

First a disclaimer: I'm an artist

I am not a historian, so my approach to

the material I am going to show you is

somewhat different from what you might expect

from a regular historian. But we can

discuss this as we go on.

And very very briefly, before I am going

to show you images I have found at the

archive of the Stasi and some very few

I have found at the archive of the BND -

I am going to show you three bodies of work

that brought me to my interest in the

Stasi files. So, I am a trained artist.

I'm a photographer and normally I do

things like this. I am very interested in

the relationship of perception... what

perception does within the context

of modern conflict. It turns out,

more importantly, perception is a battle field.

And fear is a weapon. And this is actually

not just a set of landscape images.

It is actually a set of photographs for

which I had to have support by the German
Army.

They supported me with snipers.

They were hiding in the landscape and were

aiming at the camera, and therefore at the

viewer. Which is ... okay ... of course.

So, the sniper would be here. And in most

of the pictures from this series there is

actually almost no trace to be seen from

the sniper. But this is the way

a sniper looks within the landscape.

So they were ordered to aim at me.

Even though I couldn't see them. So,

sometimes, when they were posing, I told

them: "Well, just don't hide behind a tree

and I don't see you." And they told me:

"No no, don't worry, we are aiming at you."

<i>laughter</i>

Of course, the whole thing is artificial.

Because they would never choose this kind

of setting and this kind of environment

for their... To pose a threat.

There's a sniper here, or

there's a sniper here.

But this is something that really plays an

important role in today's conflicts

That you try to occupy your opponent's mind.

And influence his or her behaviour

in that way, through creating fear. That's

another set of images, it's based on

handbooks by the US Army on how to

construct booby traps out of ordinary

objects. Like here, a TV set or radio.

If you switch it on, it blows up. A box,

or a pipe - as an artist, I find this

image very intriguing, because there is

this one very famous painting by Margritte

´This is not a pipe' - actually, this is

not a pipe, laughter

even though it is supposed to look like a
pipe.

<i>applause</i>

So be aware, that's from the sixties, from

the US Army, and these handbooks are now

out there and used by the opposing forces.

By forces they encounter. And the

whole story behind these manuals is, well,

you're supposed to create fear in your

opponent. Here is a German chocolate bar,

if you break it, it blows up in your face.

Or a tea kettle. The more ordinary objects

are, the more terrifying it becomes.

Because once you realise that there is no

way for you to avoid this idea of fear

everything is dangerous. Of course

the other side does this as well.

This is from videos I found online.

This is the last video frame before the blast.

So the last video frame before a car bomb

or roadside bomb or something like this

explodes. And the same here.

So, it's the same technique. The more I

was... the more research I did,

in this big topic of fear and

perception within conflict,

I started to think more and more

about the topic of surveillance.

Because the interesting aspect

would be to look at images from, of

surveillance. Because that would show us

these mechanisms from the other side.

but the strange thing is, we talk so much

about surveillance. And much of what we

talk about is image based. So,

'Big Brother is watching you.'

That has something to with images.

But we take it for granted that there's

nothing for us to see.

Big Brother is watching us, but is hidden

behind some curtains. But I came to realise

that actually, withing the very unique

history of Germany we have this huge

opportunity in the Stasi archives that are

accessible to the public, to do, try to

show what Big Brother actually sees.

And I approached them because I could only

find written references to images they have.

And asked them: "Why?"

I could never find any images. So,

do they still exist? And they told me:

"Sure, come over." And that was the start

of a three year, or lengthy, research project.

And first I am going to show you images

I was then, in the end, not really

interested in. Images we know exist.

So, from now on, that's authentic Stasi

material. There is some from the Czech Republic

ČSSR. I will point them out and in the end

there is some from the BND, I'll point

those out as well. That is something

we expect to see: shots taken through

button holes and surveillance industries.

That's the US embassy in East Berlin.

And the entrance doors were all under

constant surveillance. With photo cameras

and video cameras. But be aware, in the 80s

the video equipment was not that sophisticated.

So, at night time, the Stasi did record

eight hours of darkness. But it still

ended up in the files. <i>laughter</i>

That's the state of mind we are talking about.

So, everyone was photographed,

and then we have, quite often we find post

boxes, where everyone posting a letter is

photographed. No matter, who he or she is.

Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember

these images, because I am going to

reference to them later. I was more interested

in something like this. So, the

internal view. And now, two years ago I

was able to publish a book and now I am

going to somewhat follow the structure

within the book, because I was really

interested in how do you become a spy?

And I encountered a lot of material

that was meant for training purposes.

These images are from a training session

on how to disguise yourself as regular citiizens.

laughter

Which I found quite strange, because

normally that's nothing you should have to
learn.

But still, and then you have a soldier.

These ordinary citizens: some of them look

like they live now in Berlin, amongst the
hipsters

like this one laughter that was entitled

'Western Tourist' laughter

Another tourist, like, the photographer.

So, the Stasi photographed something that

tried to look like a photographer. So.

Women work for the Stasi as well.

The same thing, disguising manuals.

What do you need to dress up like this.

And in what circumstance would you use

something like this. He looks like from

'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' I think.

But be aware, that's not meant to be funny.

That was not meant to be seen by any one

of you or me. That was meant to train agents.

And we are going to see later it was

actually used, here we have a hitchhiker,

at a motor way around Berlin. And that is

from the ČSSR archives to which I was

granted acces earlier this year. They did

the same thing, so it's not just something

the Stasi did, they did it as well.

And then you had other certain aspects of

how to disguise, like how to wear a wig.

Or how to stick a fake mustache.

For privacy concerns, the images had to

be pixeled. But I could see the faces

while researching the archives.

Much funnier, actually. So, to stick fake

mustaches... Then, again from the ČSSR,

you could also disguise cars. Like,

you could draw something that's from a

steel mill in the ČSSR. And then, in a way

a disguised stroller, with a video camera.

And that is actually a video camera from

Japan, they imported this type of surveillance

equipment quite frequently. Then you

encounter other material, like how to

transmit secret signals and how to transmit

codes, the codes are not known now,

but still, the photos exist and they have

a strange beauty in them.

And then, once you got your training, you

had got to be taught how to arrest someone.

And then you first knock the door, and

then you arrest him and - notice the piece

of cloth on the floor, cause they didn't

want to ruin his white shirt -

and maybe he wants to fight, so you have

to fight laughter So. But the Stasi
always

wins. And again, the ČSSR they took things

very seriously. Things they wanted to

escalate much quicker. So you have to shoot

people - booh - and again,

it quickly escalates, he has to be shot.

And then, when you know that, you have to

be taught how to follow people around.

This - sometimes you find these very

elaborate stories where you follow people

around, this is just a very short exception.

So, she is at the bakery, and then she goes

to the doctor's office, which is already

something the Stasi maybe shouldn't know.

But still - and then she does a phone call

And here she is smiling at the camera.

Of course, the whole thing is staged for

the colleagues. But this sometimes is

very lengthy, you see this guy shopping,

and shopping, and walking at Alexanderplatz,

and meeting an other guy... It's like a

photo love story. <i>laughter</i>

And then they take the car and he gets off

the car in the middle of the woods, and

then he walks and an other car comes.

And then they meet...

Why do you take such pictures?

What's the point of that? But still,

that ends up at the archive.

And is part of the training operation.

Now, the training is done,

This then is a real surveillance photograph,

you see a black arrow, that's supposedly

the person they were shadowing, and then

you see, 'okay, we are not in the

training manual anymore, but we are

already a step ahead, and that's then the

real material. He or she is followed

around the country. Again, the Czech Republic,

you have, like, ordinary citizens

being shadowed entering a house.

After the shadowing comes also the

breach of privacy. And here we have the

room of a teenager, which looks very

innocent to us - but I am very positive

that this - I guess it's a guy -, that he

never entered university in East Germany.

Due to the fact that they could prove that

he was a fan of 'Wile E. Coyote' and the

United States, or so they thought, they

couldt prove. And they took such images

as evidence for your thinking. Which is

a problem of a surveillance operation,

I would argue. And then here we have,

- I don't know if you can see - there

might be the biggest Madonna fan of all of

Communist Eastern Europe. laughter

Same thing, probably would never be able

to study law, or medicine, or something

like that. And then you have, frequently,

- sorry, cover your eyes maybe - frequently

you have images such as this. And that was

classified as 'Western Pornography', and

the funny thing about this classification

is, very often you find files, that read

'Western Pornography', and the photographs

are missing. <i>laughter</i>

So, someone went to this appartment,

documented everything, archived it, and

maybe the guy was persecuted, and when no

one was looking, they took the pictures.

Which then shows the absurd nature of the

system. For me, this is a very... key image.

And a set of images. But this is actually

one of the images that brought me to

contacting the Stasi Archive. I read about

those images, this is a Polaroid, as you

can see by the white background.

And, as a matter of fact, the Stasi

frequently purchased Polaroid films or

confiscated ones sent to East Germany.

And the reason for that was, when they

broke into peoples' homes, and you should

never find out, the easiest thing was: You

break in, you look around, what's interesting,

you take a Polaroid, and with the help of

the Polaroid you are able to put everything

back into the original position.

So, this is an absolutely brutal image.

Because it shows the deepest possible

breach of privacy imaginable.

And most people in fact never found out

their apartment was searched, and that was

absolutely illegal, even in East Germany.

And, so it was very revealing last year,

a German TV Station thought it was a clever

idea to bring me, hook me up with a

former Stasi general. And he - And I told

him about the Polaroids. And he said:

"Yeah, but, eh, ähm, please, keep in mind,

I've, I never broke into peoples' apartments."

And I said: "Yeah, well, did you order it?"

"Yes I ordered it, but I never broke

into peoples' houses!"

And I thought, what stupid excuse is that?

Who then is responsible? Because normally

the excuse is always, oh, I was ordered to.

And his excuse was, yeah, I just ordered

them, but I didn't really, why would

they do it? <i>gasping</i> I just ordered
it...

Was not my intention... So that really was

revealing to me, like, the state of mind

within such a system. So, you have

folders and folders and folders of those

Polaroids. And when they found something

incriminating, they might have returned

a few days later with the police and a

search warrant. Because they needed a

search warrant, even in East Germany.

So, and now we realise, even though it looks

funny, the way they disguise themselves,

it's meant seriously. And it's a terrible,

brutal system. Which you also see in these

images from the ČSSR, where the people

are forced to stage their own attempt of

fleeing the country. So they were made

to stage the thing they were arrested for.

Even a young child was made to reenact

their failed attempt to flee the country,

and this is brutal.

And, so, sometimes you find images that

are completely out of any category.

<i>laughter</i>

Like a guinea pig - I told you earlier - to

think back - remember the post box with

the old lady. That's an image of one of

those files. So you have an image of

a post box, you see it, taken from a high

angle. And, maybe, out of a private apartment.

And my, and then, you have this shot after

shot after shot. And two pictures of

this guinea pig.

And then the surveillance operation

continues. And what I read out of that is

that he was in a private apartment, and

was bored - and there ran this guinea pig.

And he lies flat on the ground,

takes two shots, and then continues the

surveillance operation. Knowing, that the

material is going to end up at the archive.

And gets its archive number.

That's German bureaucracy, I guess.

Very revealing - so these guys, that's

actually a British spy, there were some

officially registered Western spies within

East Germany. The Russians had the same

thing for West Germany. And the Stasi's

job was to follow them and document what

they were doing. They couldn't do anything

to them, they could only document it.

And you find many of these images.

A spy taking a picture of a spy, in an

endless circle of surveillance. <i>laughter</i>

And what's very revealing is the fact

that I tried to gain access to the, to

their material - it's still classified.

<i>laughter</i>

I am very positive I know what the images

show: It's very much the same thing.

<i>laughter</i>

But, so, I tried to understand what

these people are thinking. But, it turns out,

even though they were fighting each other,

they seemed to share a very common

state of mind.

But, so, that looks like the end point

of surveillance.

No, it's not.

It's one step further: Stasi agents,

watching Stasi agents watching other people.

That's a triangle of surveillance, ja.

Common as well, never be sure about

your colleagues, they could be up to something.

So, better spy on them as well.

But then, I present you, the absolute

high point and end point of surveillance:

Which is the surveillance selfie.

<i>laughter and applause</i>

I give you another one.

And they knew it was going to end up at

the archive. So they are spying on

themselves, while spying on others, while

they are spying on themselves.

So, it's this: it's almost meditative.

And now, who are these people?

Now we are really at the internal view.

The Stasi looks at itself. Here is a

group photo. Remember this guy -

we encounter him later.

That happens to be the phone surveillance
unit.

Highest ranking officials here,

that's the boss of the whole bunch.

And, of course, the Stasi, Eastern Europe...

they like their medals. And then an

award ceremony. Flowers, medal, piece of paper.

And there is the guy from the phone

surveillance unit, again, so, he gets

really shabby flowers. And, piece of paper.

That's odd: see this, the wax seal? And,

it's burnt at the side?

Because: He was knighted.

A knight of the phone surveillance unit.

<i>timid laughter, applause</i>

See this, to the Non-Germans here:

That Section Symbol stands for the Code of
Law,

this isn't widely used outside Germany,

He knew that they were breaking the law,

and they're mocking it.

They're mocking it with this ceremony.

So now, here, you are the knight

of the phone surveillance unit.

Congratulations. Haha, what a good joke.

Another set of images, which is very

revealing, is this:

Strange finding in the Stasi archive.

A strange combination, see. The bishop

and a soccer player, and back there,

with the blue shirt, that's a Party youth

member. And see the ballerina there?

Strange. The guy in the suit: It's his

birthday. And he is the boss of them.

Theses are all highest ranking Stasi officials.

And they're surprising him with a birthday
party.

And the surprise is to dress up as

those people you put under surveillance.

So, see, Party Youth, soccer player,

another soccer player, the ballerina.

Beautiful, very beautiful.

Soccer fan, of course you have to put

them under surveillance. A doctor!

Of course, who cares about the right

to confidentiality of doctors. A judge.

Of course, you have to put that judge under
surveillance.

And that is a disguise, a dress-up,

hardly to be understood outside Germany.

He's dressed up as a peace activist.

He wears this 'Swords to ploughshares'

("Schwerter zu Pflugscharen') sticker

on his head, and some other peace stickers

there, and he is very proud of himself.

Why is that? Because it was such a successful

costume...

I think: 'Where did the get the costume from?'

The easiest thing, for someone

like him, would be to take it from

somebody he put in jail.

Because you could at least lose access

to university for wearing one of these stickers.

At least. Or you could serve some, short,

time, but some time in jail.

You could lose access to good housing and

everything. Why is he able to mock it?

Because he is the one who would decide

whether or not you lose access...

And this is the terrible thing about these
images.

They are very revealing.

--I am very fast...--

So, these images are now, what,

25, 30, years old. Why do I think they

are still relevant today?

It's because of something like this:

there was a short period, after

the fall of the Berlin Wall, so the

Wall fell in November '89, and the Stasi

wasn't desolved until January. So there

was a very short period of time

where the Stasi could actually try to

destroy material. They managed to do

destroy a huge bunch of material.

Not very important sets - except for

espionage, that's almost gone.

But if it would have been up to them,

that would have been the fate of all these
images.

Destruction.

We would have had never been able to look

at these images. And,

even though we don't know what these images

stand for - that's a group of gay men -

and they infiltrated it and it was

compromising to one of their colleagues

that they infiltrated it, they did things

like that. But, they tried to destroy it.

So, 25 years after the fall of the Berlin
Wall,

even more now, why do I

still think this material is really relevant?

I am going to show you something

that's even more special and more rare,

than the material I showed you just now.

It's this:

Over the course of approximately a year

I tried to convince the BND to grant me

access to their material. Which would

be amazing because in Germany we have

this one society with the two

opposing systems. So the view on the

cold war would be absolutely astonishing

if we would be able to look at all

the material.

And, after a year, I got the call,

and they told me: "yes, we have something

for you, come over."

There was actually, they have a small,

relatively small section in Berlin.

So I went there with my Scanner and they

gave me the - I would call them -

14 most boring pictures of

the BND history.

It's a match box.

This...

and that.

And, when I looked at these images,

I was like, 'are you kidding me?'

What do they show?

And this guy was very serious and told me:

"Unfortunately I can't tell you because

the information is still classified."

<i>laughter</i>

But then, he told me, as far as

he knows, these are the only images

they ever released.

And, yeah, toothpaste.

There´s a huge problem I have

with this, of course.

Not with this young lady in particular,

but in general with these images.

They can decide which images to show.

And one of the guys I was in contact with
told me:

"Of course we have these disguise pictures...

and dress up, and things like that."

But, keep in mind, even though back then

he might have been the lowest in the hierarchy.

He might be the head of the department now.

Or the one who brought in the guy who is now

the head of the department.

Of course it's not in their interest

for these images to be released.

And then I think, 'but it's in my interest'

And in our interest, to decide, what images

are worth looking at or not.

And there is another problem with images

like this. We have almost nothing that is

accessible from the Western archives.

This is rare, this is very special.

Looks like shit, but it's very special.

But we have a trove from the Eastern archives.

And there is always, like the Merkel, and
like, everyone --

when one of the Eastern countries decides,

'maybe we should limit access to our former
Stalinist archive...'

they say 'no, don't do that!!'

'it must be open' - but what happens when
we

have access to just one side?

And see all the terrible things they are doing?

And have no access to the other side?

I am not saying that the BND did the same
terrible things

the Stasi did. But the BND was certainly breaking

our laws as well...

And so, but it does look more innnocent,

because we only know, have access to a very

terrible looking archive.

And if we look to West Germany,

it's like: 'Nothing there.'

Must be fine...

And that is a terrible thing.

There is a lot wrong with that.

-- I am almost at the end, I was rushing through...sorry
--

-- But…I can show you two…well --

Just because I was too quick: from the Czech
archive,

two videos. audio isn't important.

Oh, sorry, maybe it's not going to work.

It seems things escalated much quicker.

In the ČSSR... than in ... Sorry...

Live in the ČSSR must have been very dangerous.

These weapons, everywhere...

<i>soft, pacy music</i>

But the best thing comes now:

<i>laughter</i>

Who would carry something like that, there.

<i>applause</i>

And just, if you wonder - that's a very long
film -

that's just a short part of it.

If you are ever attacked by someone with a
chair...

[in German] Ne, das ist nicht wichtig.

Audio ist ganz furchtbar.

That's like, six or seven times he shows that.

And now he shows it again.

And then it is going to be used, but look

closely how it is used, the technique they
just learned.

Okay, do this the next time you are attacked
by someone with a chair.

So, he is going to be attacked by someone
with a chair,

watch closely, he implements it quite properly.

<i>laughter</i>

Well, he didn't really.

And, things always, in this long film, always
escalate very quickly.

And here are two very long shots,

and you are supposed to spot them, that are

unnecessarily long...

<i>laughter</i>

So, of course they find the black guy smuggling.

And he explains to him now, in English:

'Do you have more?' And he says no, no.

And still, the porn is in the shot.

And then he tells him, yea, it's going to
be

very serious if you don't confess now.

And the black guy says. no, I don't have anything

to confess...

And now the guy on the left gets suspicious.

Look at him.

Very suspicious, this black young man.

He doesn't want to sign his confession.

He gets suspicious, too.

Very, very, very suspicious.

And, fortunately, the camera man made the
slight move to the left...

Not to zoom in on the penis [sic]

No, no, he doesn't have anything.

But it turns out, he has something.

Because he's black and suspicious looking.

See.

Oh, he's moving his arm.

<i>laughter</i>

So, it turns out his arm is not broken.

Sorry, that was somewhat long, but I rushed
through before.

And for some reason, he hides batteries

in his cast.

<i>applause</i>

So, he could bring in the watches, but he'd
better hide the batteries.

Because that is, whoo....

So - any questions?

<i>applause</i>

Herald Angel: thank you

Simon: I hope you got what you paid for...

<i>laughter</i>

Herald: Maybe before we start Q&amp;A, everybody
who wants to leave, leave now.

Simon: oh wow.

Herald: We are going to take one minute so
you can leave

and the others who want to stay have it quiet
for the Q&amp;A

And remember to use the rating system.

Simon: Oh, I brought post cards, if you want
some.

Because we have to make fun of them as much
as we can

<i>applause</i>

They're all the same motive, but take as many
as you want, if you want any.

Herald: Thank you

<i>somenone too quietly to be understood</i>

Simon: Uh, with the microphone, I guess

Herald: There are two microphones for Q&amp;A, 
no, four even, if you need them.

And we have questions from the internet.

Five seconds.

Okay. So, we will start with you!

Q: Just a short question, first, thanks for
the wonderful talk.

It was very very interesting.

Can you give us the title of your book, please?

Simon: Oh, it's pretty much top if you google
my name,

it's available in your local book store, or,
if you want, Amazon.

It's still available, but there are not that
many

copies left, <i>starts acting</i> so you should all 
get it as soon as possible... <i>laughter</i>

It's just 'Top Secret' and Simon Menner...

Or just Menner, my family doesn't write that
many books... <i>more laughter</i>

Herald: Thank you, over here…

Q: Would you be so kind to go back to the
photo with Coyote and the American flag?

Because I thought I saw Yugoslav air transport
logo on the ...

yes, YAT,
there you see it.

Simon: Oh yea, here.

Q: He flew with, now it's called Air Serbia...

Simon: That must have been the reason.

Q: Yes, it must have, I just wanted to check...

Simon: Sure, thanks!

applause

Herald: We have a question from the internet...

Signal Angel: Yes, frankie2 is asking, how
does this

compare to today's surveillance?

Simon: The problem is, in a way, that is a

treasure trove, but it's a very weird one.

If I could decide, freely choose, what material
to look at,

I would definitely look at, try to look at,
the

last two weeks of NSA's surveillance.

Like we all would.

But, unfortunately, this is as close as we
can get this kind of material.

But keep in mind, back in it's days the Stasi
was at least as sophisticated as the BND.

In fact, they were more advanced in the technology
they used.

And the Stasi would definitely use the same

techniques BND and CIA and everyone else uses
today.

They would try to listen in on our phone conversations.

That might not be the right material to look at
from a technological point of view.

But I think this material is 
very interesting and important

if you want to find out something about their

state of mind. Which is, absurd. And keep
in mind,

the excuse you hear from the NSA,

they just want to protect the law, and that
is why they break the law,

that's an excuse you regularly find with the
Stasi as well.

And you find parallels, and that's why it's
very important to look at this material.

Even though it's very old.

And back then, the whole archive, consists
out

of somewhere between one and two million photographs.

Which is absurdly little, if you think that
the system

was in operation for forty years.

That's fifty thousand picture a year.

They had 85 thousand agents.

From today's standards, that's nothing.

Today, they would be far more sophisticated
I guess.

Herald: Thank you, we have a question over
there, is that a question, yes.

Q: Firstly, thank you for your talk.

So, you showed that some of that archive had
been

destroyed or attempts had been made.

But there was still much to look through.

What happens in future generations,

given that now surveillance is done all digitally,

you said the Stasi had a number of weeks from
when the wall fell,

and they had time to destroy things,

given now how quickly and easy it is 
to erase digital

information, what do you say to people coming
after you?

Future generations, who might want to find
similar things

in dissolved surveillance operations.
Are they completely stuffed?

Simon: Unless there is going to be a revolution,

they are not going to be able to look at anything.

That would be my guess.

Because you need this abrupt shift in the
whole system,

that pretty much decapitates this operation.
And so,

they lost everything, and now it is frozen
in time.

So, the guy at the BND told me:

"It's up to us to decide what we reveal and
what not, because we have a veto."

Of course, nothing is then revealed.

Ever.

So, as long as this stays the policy, and
it is the policy currently everywhere,

from what I understand,

you are not going to be able to look at anything.

I am not very optimistic in that respect.

Next Question: How do you 
decide

what faces to anonymise, and which not?

Simon: Besides the Czech Republic archive…
…with the Czech Images I did it.

With those images you can do anything and
whatever you want, and that's weird.

And terrible, in a way.

With the Stasi images, the archive had to
decide.

And they decided on the basis that once you
work for,

in an official position, in times of historical
importance,

- like that - you lose your privacy rights.

You don't share the same privacy rights.

So, once we could find written evidence

that a person shown in the image
was working for the Stasi,

like him or her,

they lost their right of privacy.

If the slightest doubt remained, it had to
be pixeled.

So it wasn't done by me.

German privacy rights are very strict.

Next Questioner: You said, when you talked
about surveillance,

watching each other, that this would be the
highest state of surveillance.

But don't you think that now there is a much
higher state,

and also before things were much more clear,

everybody knew that there was a regime

trying to stay in power and trying to put
down everybody.

But now, in a situation where they don't even
have to break the law,

they just make it legal to surveil, like we
can see in France,

now with the law on intelligence,

that passed just after the Charlie murders,

and now we got the murders again,

and you have people who have

to stay in their home, because

the intelligence has said that

they might protest, and they don't have

to go through a judge, actually making it 
legal.

And we are at a stage were people surveil
each other.

Simon: That's Facebook today.
- Yes, somehow.

<i>applause</i>

And the general problem with survellance operations

- I would argue - and I hope someone here is
from the BND and they come forward

and I give a talk to them, 
because I would really like to find out.

So please, my email was there -

I would argue, is that this type 
of surveillance can not work.

What you are trying to find proof for

is a state of mind, is thoughts, 
is not something you did,

but some things you think about, 
or you might wanna do.

And photography - I am a photographer -

I know how bad photography is.

You were looking at images of landscapes,

where no sniper is visible, and each one of
you saw it.

That's how bad photography is as evidence.

And this can be proof for everything.
And nothing.

Q: They don't need photography now.

S: No, they use it.

Q: They just bring the paper to the prefect
police,

and he says 'okay, they're dangerous', and
tells

them they have to stay at home.

S: Ja, but they need proof or evidence for
something.

Q: They don't.

S: Maybe not... Now you leave behind such
a trail of evidence yourself.

That could be read somewhere in the future.

What happens in ten years, when in the US

like smoking, drinking 
isn't socially acceptable anymore.

What happens to you then, with your Facebook
entry

that's twenty years old then.

It's a weird system, yeah, but…
<i>shrugging</i>

Herald: We have another question from the
internet.

Signal Angel: Somebody from IRC is asking
whether you have tried

to contact other agencies?

S: Yes, like the BND, which was not very successful.

And regarding the spies taking pictures of spies
I tried with the British archive.

I know these pictures still exist.

I know where they exist.

But... sorry.

With the Czech, I was asked by the Goethe
Institut to approach them.

It was difficult and too lengthy 
to explain now,

it was very difficult working with them.

Language wise and because of the structure

of the Archive itself.

But they were very open, and if you want to
do more research,

go to the Czech Republic first, because it's
much easier to work with them

on a bureaucratic level, than with the Germans.

But the Germans are, in a way, more organised.

<i>laughter</i>

Well, they are Germans.

Herald: Your question:

Q: How hard was it to get the material, although
it is not classified anymore?

How much time did you invest?

S: The hardest time was the waiting periods
in between requests.

German bureaucracy takes forever.

But I am quite sure, I am from West Germany,
but now I have a huge file in this archive.

Because they compile everything.

So they keep track of every picture you're
looking at.

But the funny thing is, it's not hard at all,
you can do it as well.

You don't have to be a researcher.

And the archive considers research a human
right.

Which I learned then, and it's a very convenient
thing.

There are some elderly Stasi agents who spend
their retirement researching something something.

They can do that.

And the weird thing was, most of the pictures,
no one had looked at before.

That could be proven, because they keep track
of everything.

The process is lengthy but very easy

Q: When you decided to dig through the archive,

did you have to apply for a certain section.

or could you just walk in and say, show me
all your pictures.

S: No, they were very open, they may have
closed after me.

For them, it was strangely overwhelming,
the amount of feedback they got

after my book came out.

And they want to be left alone,
I think… (laughing)

You have to formulate it quite clearly.

Q: What exactly, your aim?

S: A theme. But for me, because it was new
to me, and to them as well,

the topic, 'Surveillance and Photography',
was very broad.

Now they get requests like 'We want to see
what Simon Menner saw.'

They don't accept something like this.

So, you have to come up with something more
clever.

Q: And how much time did you spend in their
dungeons?

S: Well, it took three years...

On and off, but it's mostly waiting,
in between.

Be patient.

Herald: Okay, your question.

Q: Modern state agencies, 
including NSA and BND, have this

mentality of 'Collect it all' passive intelligence.

It has this ability to minimise the impact
and damage.

No human eyes looking at specific pieces of surveillance.

Of course we know that's not true,

and they can zero-in if they want to.

Doesn't this make it very difficult,
as an archivist how do you

try to understand the state of mind,
when you have so much data, unprocessed?

How do you get in their mind, filtering through,
not no documents, but a hundred million documents?

S: One has to be very careful with such material,
because you look through their eyes.

That can be dangerous.

That's why I try not to provide that much
'background information'

because, that would be text compiled by the
Stasi agents.

So there is guilty and not guilty written
in the text.

And I don't want to look at these pictures
through their eyes.

But still I find it very revealing 
to look at the raw material.

And the Stasi would have collected all

if they had been able, they opened every parcel
to East Germany, every letter.

Paranoia wise, they were several steps ahead
of the NSA.

They had a university, and when you were studying
there, you could do your PhD, but you

weren't allowed to keep your notes during
the day,

they were locked away.

In safes with doors on two sides...

So they would copy them at night,

And you weren't allowed to keep your PhD thesis,

because it immediately became top secret.

And that really is paranoia.

I can not prove it. And that's 
the problem with the whole thing,

because one side remains closed.

And I guess they are
quite happy with that situation,

they can still say, no, we did something else.

Well, we can't tell you, but it's not like
this.

That is very vague, but I think the state
of mind is the same.

Q: What is the copyright on these pictures?
Are they in the public domain?

Can I use them for memes?

S: Uhm, no.
<i>laughter</i>

Well, most are on my website in a low resolution.

Which the archive doesn't like, but it's there.

The problem is that: There is a law that covers
the archive.

It's not like other archives in Germany.
It has its own law.

And that was written in the early 90's by
lawmakers.

We all know them and love them.

And they never thought of an artist coming
along and show them.

So the law covers publication.

Once you got access to material, 
you are allowed publicize it

Nothing else is stated.

But you aren't allowed to hand over the files.

And I had lengthy debates with the Archive
about what that could mean.

Since, when you have it on the website, you
hand out the files.

But I said no, it's publicising it 
-- no, no, no.

So, what's the difference? Well,

we don't really know but, ahem.

So, it's tricky.

And so many people copied it from my website,
so it is out there and gone.

Which I think is good.

Herald: We have time for one more question.

S: And I will be around, if you recognise
my bald head, talk to me.

Q; Where you able to access files other than
images?

Like audio from phone surveillance?

S: Ah, that is a very tricky thing.

You could listen to those, but getting them
is almost impossible.

Because, German privacy laws again.

And their argument is, whenever you speak,
you could reveal something private.

And that's their argument. Even though 
you might be Erich Honecker

or Helmut Kohl or something like that. 
But still it could be private what you're saying.

That's why they could never release them, and

you could not publish that, because it could
be private.

So, it's a somewhat strange law. 
But noone is going to change anymore.

Herald: And the last question over here.

Q: I am interested from where you know 
what was shown by the photographs.

Were there captions like "spies spying on spy"
or thought you about an explanation by yourself?

S: There are gazillions of km of files.

And just very few photographs, so there is
always alot of background information.

And the greatest thing… and why I… 
people I am absolutely thankful towards

are the… - there were only ladies - 
working really at the archive,

handing me the files, giving me copies.
Because the most important thing

- and that is always true 
working with an archive -

the trickiest part is, how do you find
something you don't know exists.

Because you can't ask for it.

'I am really looking for ... 
is there a birthday party?'

You will never ask for something like this.

But once you've earned the trust of the people
working there, they provide you

and provided me with these images.

Because they knew, in what direction 
I was looking for material.

There was in most cases 
background information.

There was one image I didn't include in the
talk of a dead swan.

It's a famous set of four images.

It was only known that it was found in a vault
owned by Erich Mielke, the head of Stasi, personally.

It's four images of a grave of 
a dead swan with a GDR flag.

That is very famous for being the biggest
mystery in the Stasi files,

because nothing can be found 
about these images.

I didn't include them in the talk, sorry.

But it's a dead swan, very mysterious, 
must have been important. <i>laughter</i>

Herald: Thank you Simon, very much.
Simon: Thank you.

<i>applause</i>

<i>postroll music</i>

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