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preroll music
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Herald Angel: What does Big Brother see
while he is watching?
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Simon Menner is talking to you about this:
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"Uncovering Images from the secret Stasi Archives."
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He was born 1978 in southern Germany,
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now he lives and works in Berlin.
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He does a lot of stuff with photography
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and history. And he has been researching
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for three years in Stasi files and images.
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And he is going to show us why this is
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still relevant today, or even
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more relevant than ever.
Give him a warm welcome.
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applause
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Simon: thank you.
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I was told to use this rather than the
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lavalier mic, so I hope it works.
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First a disclaimer: I'm an artist
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I am not a historian, so my approach to
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the material I am going to show you is
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somewhat different from what you might expect
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from a regular historian. But we can
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discuss this as we go on.
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And very very briefly, before I am going
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to show you images I have found at the
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archive of the Stasi and some very few
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I have found at the archive of the BND -
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I am going to show you three bodies of work
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that brought me to my interest in the
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Stasi files. So, I am a trained artist.
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I'm a photographer and normally I do
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things like this. I am very interested in
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the relationship of perception... what
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perception does within the context
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of modern conflict. It turns out,
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more importantly, perception is a battle field.
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And fear is a weapon. And this is actually
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not just a set of landscape images.
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It is actually a set of photographs for
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which I had to have support by the German
Army.
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They supported me with snipers.
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They were hiding in the landscape and were
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aiming at the camera, and therefore at the
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viewer. Which is ... okay ... of course.
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So, the sniper would be here. And in most
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of the pictures from this series there is
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actually almost no trace to be seen from
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the sniper. But this is the way
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a sniper looks within the landscape.
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So they were ordered to aim at me.
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Even though I couldn't see them. So,
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sometimes, when they were posing, I told
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them: "Well, just don't hide behind a tree
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and I don't see you." And they told me:
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"No no, don't worry, we are aiming at you."
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laughter
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Of course, the whole thing is artificial.
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Because they would never choose this kind
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of setting and this kind of environment
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for their... To pose a threat.
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There's a sniper here, or
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there's a sniper here.
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But this is something that really plays an
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important role in today's conflicts
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That you try to occupy your opponent's mind.
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And influence his or her behaviour
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in that way, through creating fear. That's
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another set of images, it's based on
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handbooks by the US Army on how to
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construct booby traps out of ordinary
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objects. Like here, a TV set or radio.
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If you switch it on, it blows up. A box,
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or a pipe - as an artist, I find this
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image very intriguing, because there is
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this one very famous painting by Margritte
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´This is not a pipe' - actually, this is
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not a pipe, laughter
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even though it is supposed to look like a
pipe.
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applause
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So be aware, that's from the sixties, from
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the US Army, and these handbooks are now
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out there and used by the opposing forces.
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By forces they encounter. And the
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whole story behind these manuals is, well,
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you're supposed to create fear in your
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opponent. Here is a German chocolate bar,
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if you break it, it blows up in your face.
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Or a tea kettle. The more ordinary objects
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are, the more terrifying it becomes.
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Because once you realise that there is no
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way for you to avoid this idea of fear
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everything is dangerous. Of course
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the other side does this as well.
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This is from videos I found online.
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This is the last video frame before the blast.
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So the last video frame before a car bomb
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or roadside bomb or something like this
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explodes. And the same here.
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So, it's the same technique. The more I
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was... the more research I did,
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in this big topic of fear and
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perception within conflict,
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I started to think more and more
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about the topic of surveillance.
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Because the interesting aspect
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would be to look at images from, of
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surveillance. Because that would show us
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these mechanisms from the other side.
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but the strange thing is, we talk so much
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about surveillance. And much of what we
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talk about is image based. So,
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'Big Brother is watching you.'
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That has something to with images.
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But we take it for granted that there's
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nothing for us to see.
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Big Brother is watching us, but is hidden
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behind some curtains. But I came to realise
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that actually, withing the very unique
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history of Germany we have this huge
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opportunity in the Stasi archives that are
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accessible to the public, to do, try to
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show what Big Brother actually sees.
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And I approached them because I could only
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find written references to images they have.
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And asked them: "Why?"
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I could never find any images. So,
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do they still exist? And they told me:
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"Sure, come over." And that was the start
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of a three year, or lengthy, research project.
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And first I am going to show you images
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I was then, in the end, not really
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interested in. Images we know exist.
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So, from now on, that's authentic Stasi
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material. There is some from the Czech Republic
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ČSSR. I will point them out and in the end
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there is some from the BND, I'll point
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those out as well. That is something
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we expect to see: shots taken through
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button holes and surveillance industries.
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That's the US embassy in East Berlin.
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And the entrance doors were all under
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constant surveillance. With photo cameras
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and video cameras. But be aware, in the 80s
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the video equipment was not that sophisticated.
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So, at night time, the Stasi did record
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eight hours of darkness. But it still
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ended up in the files. laughter
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That's the state of mind we are talking about.
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So, everyone was photographed,
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and then we have, quite often we find post
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boxes, where everyone posting a letter is
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photographed. No matter, who he or she is.
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Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember
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these images, because I am going to
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reference to them later. I was more interested
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in something like this. So, the
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internal view. And now, two years ago I
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was able to publish a book and now I am
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going to somewhat follow the structure
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within the book, because I was really
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interested in how do you become a spy?
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And I encountered a lot of material
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that was meant for training purposes.
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These images are from a training session
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on how to disguise yourself as regular citiizens.
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laughter
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Which I found quite strange, because
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normally that's nothing you should have to
learn.
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But still, and then you have a soldier.
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These ordinary citizens: some of them look
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like they live now in Berlin, amongst the
hipsters
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like this one laughter that was entitled
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'Western Tourist' laughter
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Another tourist, like, the photographer.
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So, the Stasi photographed something that
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tried to look like a photographer. So.
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Women work for the Stasi as well.
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The same thing, disguising manuals.
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What do you need to dress up like this.
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And in what circumstance would you use
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something like this. He looks like from
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'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' I think.
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But be aware, that's not meant to be funny.
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That was not meant to be seen by any one
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of you or me. That was meant to train agents.
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And we are going to see later it was
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actually used, here we have a hitchhiker,
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at a motor way around Berlin. And that is
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from the ČSSR archives to which I was
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granted acces earlier this year. They did
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the same thing, so it's not just something
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the Stasi did, they did it as well.
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And then you had other certain aspects of
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how to disguise, like how to wear a wig.
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Or how to stick a fake mustache.
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For privacy concerns, the images had to
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be pixeled. But I could see the faces
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while researching the archives.
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Much funnier, actually. So, to stick fake
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mustaches... Then, again from the ČSSR,
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you could also disguise cars. Like,
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you could draw something that's from a
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steel mill in the ČSSR. And then, in a way
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a disguised stroller, with a video camera.
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And that is actually a video camera from
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Japan, they imported this type of surveillance
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equipment quite frequently. Then you
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encounter other material, like how to
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transmit secret signals and how to transmit
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codes, the codes are not known now,
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but still, the photos exist and they have
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a strange beauty in them.
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And then, once you got your training, you
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had got to be taught how to arrest someone.
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And then you first knock the door, and
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then you arrest him and - notice the piece
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of cloth on the floor, cause they didn't
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want to ruin his white shirt -
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and maybe he wants to fight, so you have
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to fight laughter So. But the Stasi
always
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wins. And again, the ČSSR they took things
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very seriously. Things they wanted to
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escalate much quicker. So you have to shoot
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people - booh - and again,
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it quickly escalates, he has to be shot.
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And then, when you know that, you have to
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be taught how to follow people around.
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This - sometimes you find these very
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elaborate stories where you follow people
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around, this is just a very short exception.
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So, she is at the bakery, and then she goes
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to the doctor's office, which is already
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something the Stasi maybe shouldn't know.
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But still - and then she does a phone call
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And here she is smiling at the camera.
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Of course, the whole thing is staged for
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the colleagues. But this sometimes is
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very lengthy, you see this guy shopping,
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and shopping, and walking at Alexanderplatz,
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and meeting an other guy... It's like a
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photo love story. laughter
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And then they take the car and he gets off
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the car in the middle of the woods, and
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then he walks and an other car comes.
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And then they meet...
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Why do you take such pictures?
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What's the point of that? But still,
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that ends up at the archive.
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And is part of the training operation.
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Now, the training is done,
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This then is a real surveillance photograph,
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you see a black arrow, that's supposedly
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the person they were shadowing, and then
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you see, 'okay, we are not in the
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training manual anymore, but we are
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already a step ahead, and that's then the
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real material. He or she is followed
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around the country. Again, the Czech Republic,
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you have, like, ordinary citizens
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being shadowed entering a house.
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After the shadowing comes also the
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breach of privacy. And here we have the
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room of a teenager, which looks very
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innocent to us - but I am very positive
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00:13:34,649 --> 00:13:37,620
that this - I guess it's a guy -, that he
265
00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:40,579
never entered university in East Germany.
266
00:13:40,579 --> 00:13:43,269
Due to the fact that they could prove that
267
00:13:43,269 --> 00:13:46,069
he was a fan of 'Wile E. Coyote' and the
268
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:49,939
United States, or so they thought, they
269
00:13:49,939 --> 00:13:52,420
couldt prove. And they took such images
270
00:13:52,420 --> 00:13:55,509
as evidence for your thinking. Which is
271
00:13:55,509 --> 00:13:57,220
a problem of a surveillance operation,
272
00:13:57,220 --> 00:13:59,399
I would argue. And then here we have,
273
00:13:59,399 --> 00:14:01,559
- I don't know if you can see - there
274
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,439
might be the biggest Madonna fan of all of
275
00:14:04,439 --> 00:14:08,509
Communist Eastern Europe. laughter
276
00:14:08,509 --> 00:14:11,550
Same thing, probably would never be able
277
00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:16,870
to study law, or medicine, or something
278
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:20,079
like that. And then you have, frequently,
279
00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:23,149
- sorry, cover your eyes maybe - frequently
280
00:14:23,149 --> 00:14:25,930
you have images such as this. And that was
281
00:14:25,930 --> 00:14:28,990
classified as 'Western Pornography', and
282
00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:32,220
the funny thing about this classification
283
00:14:32,220 --> 00:14:34,670
is, very often you find files, that read
284
00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:37,860
'Western Pornography', and the photographs
285
00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:40,509
are missing. laughter
286
00:14:40,509 --> 00:14:43,720
So, someone went to this appartment,
287
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,139
documented everything, archived it, and
288
00:14:46,139 --> 00:14:49,259
maybe the guy was persecuted, and when no
289
00:14:49,259 --> 00:14:51,559
one was looking, they took the pictures.
290
00:14:51,559 --> 00:14:56,069
Which then shows the absurd nature of the
291
00:14:56,069 --> 00:15:02,019
system. For me, this is a very... key image.
292
00:15:02,019 --> 00:15:05,490
And a set of images. But this is actually
293
00:15:05,490 --> 00:15:07,629
one of the images that brought me to
294
00:15:07,629 --> 00:15:11,629
contacting the Stasi Archive. I read about
295
00:15:11,629 --> 00:15:13,990
those images, this is a Polaroid, as you
296
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:16,160
can see by the white background.
297
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,870
And, as a matter of fact, the Stasi
298
00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:21,949
frequently purchased Polaroid films or
299
00:15:21,949 --> 00:15:25,339
confiscated ones sent to East Germany.
300
00:15:25,339 --> 00:15:26,730
And the reason for that was, when they
301
00:15:26,730 --> 00:15:28,970
broke into peoples' homes, and you should
302
00:15:28,970 --> 00:15:31,480
never find out, the easiest thing was: You
303
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,319
break in, you look around, what's interesting,
304
00:15:34,319 --> 00:15:37,519
you take a Polaroid, and with the help of
305
00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:39,509
the Polaroid you are able to put everything
306
00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:41,899
back into the original position.
307
00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:45,990
So, this is an absolutely brutal image.
308
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:48,269
Because it shows the deepest possible
309
00:15:48,269 --> 00:15:52,209
breach of privacy imaginable.
310
00:15:52,209 --> 00:15:54,920
And most people in fact never found out
311
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,559
their apartment was searched, and that was
312
00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:00,240
absolutely illegal, even in East Germany.
313
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,220
And, so it was very revealing last year,
314
00:16:03,220 --> 00:16:04,779
a German TV Station thought it was a clever
315
00:16:04,779 --> 00:16:06,949
idea to bring me, hook me up with a
316
00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:10,809
former Stasi general. And he - And I told
317
00:16:10,809 --> 00:16:13,170
him about the Polaroids. And he said:
318
00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:16,709
"Yeah, but, eh, ähm, please, keep in mind,
319
00:16:16,709 --> 00:16:19,990
I've, I never broke into peoples' apartments."
320
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:22,600
And I said: "Yeah, well, did you order it?"
321
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,740
"Yes I ordered it, but I never broke
322
00:16:24,740 --> 00:16:26,089
into peoples' houses!"
323
00:16:26,089 --> 00:16:29,300
And I thought, what stupid excuse is that?
324
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:31,009
Who then is responsible? Because normally
325
00:16:31,009 --> 00:16:33,939
the excuse is always, oh, I was ordered to.
326
00:16:33,939 --> 00:16:35,970
And his excuse was, yeah, I just ordered
327
00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:37,709
them, but I didn't really, why would
328
00:16:37,709 --> 00:16:40,889
they do it? gasping I just ordered
it...
329
00:16:40,889 --> 00:16:45,619
Was not my intention... So that really was
330
00:16:45,619 --> 00:16:47,470
revealing to me, like, the state of mind
331
00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:51,519
within such a system. So, you have
332
00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:54,059
folders and folders and folders of those
333
00:16:54,059 --> 00:16:56,259
Polaroids. And when they found something
334
00:16:56,259 --> 00:16:58,860
incriminating, they might have returned
335
00:16:58,860 --> 00:17:01,069
a few days later with the police and a
336
00:17:01,069 --> 00:17:02,639
search warrant. Because they needed a
337
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:05,148
search warrant, even in East Germany.
338
00:17:05,148 --> 00:17:10,839
So, and now we realise, even though it looks
339
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,148
funny, the way they disguise themselves,
340
00:17:13,148 --> 00:17:15,648
it's meant seriously. And it's a terrible,
341
00:17:15,648 --> 00:17:18,140
brutal system. Which you also see in these
342
00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:20,220
images from the ČSSR, where the people
343
00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:24,059
are forced to stage their own attempt of
344
00:17:24,059 --> 00:17:26,619
fleeing the country. So they were made
345
00:17:26,619 --> 00:17:30,000
to stage the thing they were arrested for.
346
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,090
Even a young child was made to reenact
347
00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:36,350
their failed attempt to flee the country,
348
00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:37,860
and this is brutal.
349
00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:42,630
And, so, sometimes you find images that
350
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:45,980
are completely out of any category.
351
00:17:45,980 --> 00:17:47,130
laughter
352
00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:50,970
Like a guinea pig - I told you earlier - to
353
00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:53,970
think back - remember the post box with
354
00:17:53,970 --> 00:17:57,590
the old lady. That's an image of one of
355
00:17:57,590 --> 00:18:02,610
those files. So you have an image of
356
00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:04,720
a post box, you see it, taken from a high
357
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,029
angle. And, maybe, out of a private apartment.
358
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:11,860
And my, and then, you have this shot after
359
00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:14,149
shot after shot. And two pictures of
360
00:18:14,149 --> 00:18:15,830
this guinea pig.
361
00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:17,029
And then the surveillance operation
362
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:20,610
continues. And what I read out of that is
363
00:18:20,610 --> 00:18:22,539
that he was in a private apartment, and
364
00:18:22,539 --> 00:18:27,059
was bored - and there ran this guinea pig.
365
00:18:27,059 --> 00:18:29,850
And he lies flat on the ground,
366
00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:32,320
takes two shots, and then continues the
367
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,390
surveillance operation. Knowing, that the
368
00:18:35,390 --> 00:18:38,779
material is going to end up at the archive.
369
00:18:38,779 --> 00:18:41,960
And gets its archive number.
370
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,549
That's German bureaucracy, I guess.
371
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:49,190
Very revealing - so these guys, that's
372
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:52,250
actually a British spy, there were some
373
00:18:52,250 --> 00:18:56,210
officially registered Western spies within
374
00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:58,250
East Germany. The Russians had the same
375
00:18:58,250 --> 00:19:01,309
thing for West Germany. And the Stasi's
376
00:19:01,309 --> 00:19:04,710
job was to follow them and document what
377
00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:06,370
they were doing. They couldn't do anything
378
00:19:06,370 --> 00:19:09,299
to them, they could only document it.
379
00:19:09,299 --> 00:19:11,870
And you find many of these images.
380
00:19:11,870 --> 00:19:13,820
A spy taking a picture of a spy, in an
381
00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:17,830
endless circle of surveillance. laughter
382
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:19,860
And what's very revealing is the fact
383
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:23,580
that I tried to gain access to the, to
384
00:19:23,580 --> 00:19:27,529
their material - it's still classified.
385
00:19:27,529 --> 00:19:28,409
laughter
386
00:19:28,409 --> 00:19:31,240
I am very positive I know what the images
387
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,700
show: It's very much the same thing.
388
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:34,630
laughter
389
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:38,500
But, so, I tried to understand what
390
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:41,230
these people are thinking. But, it turns out,
391
00:19:41,230 --> 00:19:42,840
even though they were fighting each other,
392
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,190
they seemed to share a very common
393
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:46,570
state of mind.
394
00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:50,519
But, so, that looks like the end point
395
00:19:50,519 --> 00:19:51,480
of surveillance.
396
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,260
No, it's not.
397
00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:57,380
It's one step further: Stasi agents,
398
00:19:57,380 --> 00:20:01,090
watching Stasi agents watching other people.
399
00:20:01,090 --> 00:20:05,559
That's a triangle of surveillance, ja.
400
00:20:05,559 --> 00:20:08,350
Common as well, never be sure about
401
00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:11,149
your colleagues, they could be up to something.
402
00:20:11,149 --> 00:20:14,620
So, better spy on them as well.
403
00:20:14,620 --> 00:20:18,240
But then, I present you, the absolute
404
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,140
high point and end point of surveillance:
405
00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:23,800
Which is the surveillance selfie.
406
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:30,180
laughter and applause
407
00:20:33,950 --> 00:20:36,960
I give you another one.
408
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,899
And they knew it was going to end up at
409
00:20:40,899 --> 00:20:42,809
the archive. So they are spying on
410
00:20:42,809 --> 00:20:44,990
themselves, while spying on others, while
411
00:20:44,990 --> 00:20:46,070
they are spying on themselves.
412
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:49,789
So, it's this: it's almost meditative.
413
00:20:49,789 --> 00:20:53,330
And now, who are these people?
414
00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:55,580
Now we are really at the internal view.
415
00:20:55,580 --> 00:20:59,250
The Stasi looks at itself. Here is a
416
00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:01,370
group photo. Remember this guy -
417
00:21:01,370 --> 00:21:03,309
we encounter him later.
418
00:21:03,309 --> 00:21:07,990
That happens to be the phone surveillance
unit.
419
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:09,940
Highest ranking officials here,
420
00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:12,429
that's the boss of the whole bunch.
421
00:21:12,429 --> 00:21:15,919
And, of course, the Stasi, Eastern Europe...
422
00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:18,559
they like their medals. And then an
423
00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,700
award ceremony. Flowers, medal, piece of paper.
424
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:24,760
And there is the guy from the phone
425
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,919
surveillance unit, again, so, he gets
426
00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:33,549
really shabby flowers. And, piece of paper.
427
00:21:33,549 --> 00:21:37,510
That's odd: see this, the wax seal? And,
428
00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:40,100
it's burnt at the side?
429
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:44,330
Because: He was knighted.
430
00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:48,659
A knight of the phone surveillance unit.
431
00:21:48,659 --> 00:21:54,590
timid laughter, applause
432
00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:57,700
See this, to the Non-Germans here:
433
00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:01,669
That Section Symbol stands for the Code of
Law,
434
00:22:01,669 --> 00:22:05,380
this isn't widely used outside Germany,
435
00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:08,519
He knew that they were breaking the law,
436
00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:10,200
and they're mocking it.
437
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,440
They're mocking it with this ceremony.
438
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,919
So now, here, you are the knight
439
00:22:14,919 --> 00:22:16,720
of the phone surveillance unit.
440
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,130
Congratulations. Haha, what a good joke.
441
00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:21,990
Another set of images, which is very
442
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:27,179
revealing, is this:
443
00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:30,010
Strange finding in the Stasi archive.
444
00:22:30,010 --> 00:22:32,159
A strange combination, see. The bishop
445
00:22:32,159 --> 00:22:35,980
and a soccer player, and back there,
446
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:39,929
with the blue shirt, that's a Party youth
447
00:22:39,929 --> 00:22:44,970
member. And see the ballerina there?
448
00:22:44,970 --> 00:22:49,460
Strange. The guy in the suit: It's his
449
00:22:49,460 --> 00:22:51,610
birthday. And he is the boss of them.
450
00:22:51,610 --> 00:22:56,419
Theses are all highest ranking Stasi officials.
451
00:22:56,419 --> 00:22:58,909
And they're surprising him with a birthday
party.
452
00:22:58,909 --> 00:23:00,890
And the surprise is to dress up as
453
00:23:00,890 --> 00:23:05,000
those people you put under surveillance.
454
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,210
So, see, Party Youth, soccer player,
455
00:23:10,210 --> 00:23:13,409
another soccer player, the ballerina.
456
00:23:13,409 --> 00:23:16,850
Beautiful, very beautiful.
457
00:23:16,850 --> 00:23:18,200
Soccer fan, of course you have to put
458
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,490
them under surveillance. A doctor!
459
00:23:20,490 --> 00:23:24,200
Of course, who cares about the right
460
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,710
to confidentiality of doctors. A judge.
461
00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:32,559
Of course, you have to put that judge under
surveillance.
462
00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:37,289
And that is a disguise, a dress-up,
463
00:23:37,289 --> 00:23:40,909
hardly to be understood outside Germany.
464
00:23:40,909 --> 00:23:45,399
He's dressed up as a peace activist.
465
00:23:45,399 --> 00:23:48,950
He wears this 'Swords to ploughshares'
466
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:50,299
("Schwerter zu Pflugscharen') sticker
467
00:23:50,299 --> 00:23:53,330
on his head, and some other peace stickers
468
00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:56,419
there, and he is very proud of himself.
469
00:23:56,419 --> 00:24:01,080
Why is that? Because it was such a successful
470
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,960
costume...
471
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,070
I think: 'Where did the get the costume from?'
472
00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:10,340
The easiest thing, for someone
473
00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:12,250
like him, would be to take it from
474
00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:14,649
somebody he put in jail.
475
00:24:14,649 --> 00:24:16,409
Because you could at least lose access
476
00:24:16,409 --> 00:24:19,070
to university for wearing one of these stickers.
477
00:24:19,070 --> 00:24:21,169
At least. Or you could serve some, short,
478
00:24:21,169 --> 00:24:24,240
time, but some time in jail.
479
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,799
You could lose access to good housing and
480
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:30,320
everything. Why is he able to mock it?
481
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,049
Because he is the one who would decide
482
00:24:32,049 --> 00:24:35,299
whether or not you lose access...
483
00:24:35,299 --> 00:24:38,049
And this is the terrible thing about these
images.
484
00:24:38,049 --> 00:24:40,710
They are very revealing.
485
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:47,659
--I am very fast...--
486
00:24:47,659 --> 00:24:52,470
So, these images are now, what,
487
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:55,880
25, 30, years old. Why do I think they
488
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,110
are still relevant today?
489
00:24:59,110 --> 00:25:01,380
It's because of something like this:
490
00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:03,809
there was a short period, after
491
00:25:03,809 --> 00:25:05,820
the fall of the Berlin Wall, so the
492
00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:11,360
Wall fell in November '89, and the Stasi
493
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,230
wasn't desolved until January. So there
494
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:15,760
was a very short period of time
495
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,389
where the Stasi could actually try to
496
00:25:17,389 --> 00:25:20,659
destroy material. They managed to do
497
00:25:20,659 --> 00:25:23,700
destroy a huge bunch of material.
498
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:29,500
Not very important sets - except for
499
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:33,620
espionage, that's almost gone.
500
00:25:33,620 --> 00:25:36,340
But if it would have been up to them,
501
00:25:36,340 --> 00:25:39,929
that would have been the fate of all these
images.
502
00:25:39,929 --> 00:25:42,059
Destruction.
503
00:25:42,059 --> 00:25:43,679
We would have had never been able to look
504
00:25:43,679 --> 00:25:47,690
at these images. And,
505
00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:49,220
even though we don't know what these images
506
00:25:49,220 --> 00:25:51,860
stand for - that's a group of gay men -
507
00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:54,779
and they infiltrated it and it was
508
00:25:54,779 --> 00:25:56,350
compromising to one of their colleagues
509
00:25:56,350 --> 00:25:58,490
that they infiltrated it, they did things
510
00:25:58,490 --> 00:26:03,480
like that. But, they tried to destroy it.
511
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,409
So, 25 years after the fall of the Berlin
Wall,
512
00:26:06,409 --> 00:26:09,360
even more now, why do I
513
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,620
still think this material is really relevant?
514
00:26:11,620 --> 00:26:13,950
I am going to show you something
515
00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:17,630
that's even more special and more rare,
516
00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:20,549
than the material I showed you just now.
517
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:23,019
It's this:
518
00:26:23,019 --> 00:26:24,820
Over the course of approximately a year
519
00:26:24,820 --> 00:26:28,730
I tried to convince the BND to grant me
520
00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:31,169
access to their material. Which would
521
00:26:31,169 --> 00:26:33,220
be amazing because in Germany we have
522
00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:36,120
this one society with the two
523
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:38,760
opposing systems. So the view on the
524
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,980
cold war would be absolutely astonishing
525
00:26:42,980 --> 00:26:45,299
if we would be able to look at all
526
00:26:45,299 --> 00:26:47,080
the material.
527
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,250
And, after a year, I got the call,
528
00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:51,730
and they told me: "yes, we have something
529
00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:52,620
for you, come over."
530
00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:56,220
There was actually, they have a small,
531
00:26:56,220 --> 00:26:57,669
relatively small section in Berlin.
532
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:59,919
So I went there with my Scanner and they
533
00:26:59,919 --> 00:27:01,919
gave me the - I would call them -
534
00:27:01,919 --> 00:27:05,909
14 most boring pictures of
535
00:27:05,909 --> 00:27:09,519
the BND history.
536
00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:12,510
It's a match box.
537
00:27:12,510 --> 00:27:14,510
This...
538
00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:15,979
and that.
539
00:27:15,979 --> 00:27:18,070
And, when I looked at these images,
540
00:27:18,070 --> 00:27:19,799
I was like, 'are you kidding me?'
541
00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:21,309
What do they show?
542
00:27:21,309 --> 00:27:23,389
And this guy was very serious and told me:
543
00:27:23,389 --> 00:27:24,880
"Unfortunately I can't tell you because
544
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,759
the information is still classified."
545
00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:31,850
laughter
546
00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:37,309
But then, he told me, as far as
547
00:27:37,309 --> 00:27:39,509
he knows, these are the only images
548
00:27:39,509 --> 00:27:41,450
they ever released.
549
00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:45,289
And, yeah, toothpaste.
550
00:27:45,289 --> 00:27:48,000
There´s a huge problem I have
551
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,070
with this, of course.
552
00:27:51,070 --> 00:27:53,970
Not with this young lady in particular,
553
00:27:53,970 --> 00:27:56,600
but in general with these images.
554
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,779
They can decide which images to show.
555
00:28:00,779 --> 00:28:03,880
And one of the guys I was in contact with
told me:
556
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,149
"Of course we have these disguise pictures...
557
00:28:06,149 --> 00:28:08,830
and dress up, and things like that."
558
00:28:08,830 --> 00:28:12,200
But, keep in mind, even though back then
559
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,710
he might have been the lowest in the hierarchy.
560
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:17,600
He might be the head of the department now.
561
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,700
Or the one who brought in the guy who is now
562
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:22,480
the head of the department.
563
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,070
Of course it's not in their interest
564
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:28,179
for these images to be released.
565
00:28:28,179 --> 00:28:32,159
And then I think, 'but it's in my interest'
566
00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:35,720
And in our interest, to decide, what images
567
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,559
are worth looking at or not.
568
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:39,990
And there is another problem with images
569
00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:45,070
like this. We have almost nothing that is
570
00:28:45,070 --> 00:28:47,179
accessible from the Western archives.
571
00:28:47,179 --> 00:28:50,950
This is rare, this is very special.
572
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:55,120
Looks like shit, but it's very special.
573
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,049
But we have a trove from the Eastern archives.
574
00:28:59,049 --> 00:29:02,820
And there is always, like the Merkel, and
like, everyone --
575
00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:07,820
when one of the Eastern countries decides,
576
00:29:07,820 --> 00:29:13,299
'maybe we should limit access to our former
Stalinist archive...'
577
00:29:13,299 --> 00:29:15,460
they say 'no, don't do that!!'
578
00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:18,049
'it must be open' - but what happens when
we
579
00:29:18,049 --> 00:29:20,580
have access to just one side?
580
00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:23,779
And see all the terrible things they are doing?
581
00:29:23,779 --> 00:29:26,090
And have no access to the other side?
582
00:29:26,090 --> 00:29:29,289
I am not saying that the BND did the same
terrible things
583
00:29:29,289 --> 00:29:32,269
the Stasi did. But the BND was certainly breaking
584
00:29:32,269 --> 00:29:34,659
our laws as well...
585
00:29:34,659 --> 00:29:37,299
And so, but it does look more innnocent,
586
00:29:37,299 --> 00:29:39,350
because we only know, have access to a very
587
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:41,730
terrible looking archive.
588
00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:43,559
And if we look to West Germany,
589
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:45,370
it's like: 'Nothing there.'
590
00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:47,190
Must be fine...
591
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:49,250
And that is a terrible thing.
592
00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:52,960
There is a lot wrong with that.
593
00:29:52,960 --> 00:30:03,599
-- I am almost at the end, I was rushing through...sorry
--
594
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:10,649
-- But…I can show you two…well --
595
00:30:10,649 --> 00:30:13,960
Just because I was too quick: from the Czech
archive,
596
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,000
two videos. audio isn't important.
597
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,899
Oh, sorry, maybe it's not going to work.
598
00:30:21,899 --> 00:30:24,820
It seems things escalated much quicker.
599
00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:29,159
In the ČSSR... than in ... Sorry...
600
00:30:29,159 --> 00:30:44,490
Live in the ČSSR must have been very dangerous.
601
00:30:44,490 --> 00:31:00,490
These weapons, everywhere...
602
00:31:00,490 --> 00:31:09,260
soft, pacy music
603
00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:23,419
But the best thing comes now:
604
00:31:23,419 --> 00:31:28,800
laughter
605
00:31:35,620 --> 00:31:42,020
Who would carry something like that, there.
606
00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:50,629
applause
607
00:31:50,629 --> 00:31:54,250
And just, if you wonder - that's a very long
film -
608
00:31:54,250 --> 00:31:56,840
that's just a short part of it.
609
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,460
If you are ever attacked by someone with a
chair...
610
00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:05,740
[in German] Ne, das ist nicht wichtig.
611
00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:09,330
Audio ist ganz furchtbar.
612
00:32:09,330 --> 00:32:11,879
That's like, six or seven times he shows that.
613
00:32:11,879 --> 00:32:13,539
And now he shows it again.
614
00:32:13,539 --> 00:32:15,990
And then it is going to be used, but look
615
00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:19,799
closely how it is used, the technique they
just learned.
616
00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:26,559
Okay, do this the next time you are attacked
by someone with a chair.
617
00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:31,169
So, he is going to be attacked by someone
with a chair,
618
00:32:31,169 --> 00:32:35,330
watch closely, he implements it quite properly.
619
00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:37,809
laughter
620
00:32:37,809 --> 00:32:41,759
Well, he didn't really.
621
00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:49,610
And, things always, in this long film, always
escalate very quickly.
622
00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:55,779
And here are two very long shots,
623
00:32:55,779 --> 00:32:59,039
and you are supposed to spot them, that are
624
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:01,229
unnecessarily long...
625
00:33:05,349 --> 00:33:09,919
laughter
626
00:33:09,919 --> 00:33:14,169
So, of course they find the black guy smuggling.
627
00:33:14,169 --> 00:33:16,440
And he explains to him now, in English:
628
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,720
'Do you have more?' And he says no, no.
629
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,169
And still, the porn is in the shot.
630
00:33:25,169 --> 00:33:26,950
And then he tells him, yea, it's going to
be
631
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:29,389
very serious if you don't confess now.
632
00:33:29,389 --> 00:33:31,210
And the black guy says. no, I don't have anything
633
00:33:31,210 --> 00:33:32,749
to confess...
634
00:33:32,749 --> 00:33:36,259
And now the guy on the left gets suspicious.
635
00:33:36,259 --> 00:33:40,559
Look at him.
636
00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:44,909
Very suspicious, this black young man.
637
00:33:44,909 --> 00:33:52,040
He doesn't want to sign his confession.
638
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,659
He gets suspicious, too.
639
00:33:58,659 --> 00:34:02,850
Very, very, very suspicious.
640
00:34:02,850 --> 00:34:07,000
And, fortunately, the camera man made the
slight move to the left...
641
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,159
Not to zoom in on the penis [sic]
642
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:10,650
No, no, he doesn't have anything.
643
00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:14,610
But it turns out, he has something.
644
00:34:14,610 --> 00:34:18,540
Because he's black and suspicious looking.
645
00:34:18,540 --> 00:34:20,659
See.
646
00:34:20,659 --> 00:34:27,050
Oh, he's moving his arm.
647
00:34:40,630 --> 00:34:43,650
laughter
648
00:34:51,970 --> 00:34:55,090
So, it turns out his arm is not broken.
649
00:34:55,090 --> 00:35:00,850
Sorry, that was somewhat long, but I rushed
through before.
650
00:35:00,850 --> 00:35:04,390
And for some reason, he hides batteries
651
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:08,380
in his cast.
652
00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:14,130
applause
653
00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:23,080
So, he could bring in the watches, but he'd
better hide the batteries.
654
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,560
Because that is, whoo....
655
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,580
So - any questions?
656
00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:43,430
applause
657
00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:46,510
Herald Angel: thank you
658
00:35:46,510 --> 00:35:49,140
Simon: I hope you got what you paid for...
659
00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:49,970
laughter
660
00:35:49,970 --> 00:35:55,930
Herald: Maybe before we start Q&A, everybody
who wants to leave, leave now.
661
00:35:55,930 --> 00:35:57,700
Simon: oh wow.
662
00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:01,130
Herald: We are going to take one minute so
you can leave
663
00:36:01,130 --> 00:36:07,820
and the others who want to stay have it quiet
for the Q&A
664
00:36:30,190 --> 00:36:34,800
And remember to use the rating system.
665
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,860
Simon: Oh, I brought post cards, if you want
some.
666
00:36:39,860 --> 00:36:44,640
Because we have to make fun of them as much
as we can
667
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,020
applause
668
00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:54,900
They're all the same motive, but take as many
as you want, if you want any.
669
00:37:01,610 --> 00:37:03,870
Herald: Thank you
670
00:37:09,020 --> 00:37:11,050
somenone too quietly to be understood
671
00:37:11,050 --> 00:37:14,240
Simon: Uh, with the microphone, I guess
672
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:20,280
Herald: There are two microphones for Q&A,
no, four even, if you need them.
673
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,830
And we have questions from the internet.
674
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,010
Five seconds.
675
00:37:36,590 --> 00:37:40,320
Okay. So, we will start with you!
676
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:46,440
Q: Just a short question, first, thanks for
the wonderful talk.
677
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,610
It was very very interesting.
678
00:37:49,610 --> 00:37:51,640
Can you give us the title of your book, please?
679
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,530
Simon: Oh, it's pretty much top if you google
my name,
680
00:37:55,530 --> 00:38:00,000
it's available in your local book store, or,
if you want, Amazon.
681
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,380
It's still available, but there are not that
many
682
00:38:03,380 --> 00:38:07,210
copies left, starts acting so you should all
get it as soon as possible... laughter
683
00:38:07,210 --> 00:38:09,610
It's just 'Top Secret' and Simon Menner...
684
00:38:09,610 --> 00:38:14,190
Or just Menner, my family doesn't write that
many books... more laughter
685
00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:18,520
Herald: Thank you, over here…
686
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:25,960
Q: Would you be so kind to go back to the
photo with Coyote and the American flag?
687
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:31,610
Because I thought I saw Yugoslav air transport
logo on the ...
688
00:38:31,610 --> 00:38:34,110
yes, YAT,
there you see it.
689
00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:36,070
Simon: Oh yea, here.
690
00:38:36,070 --> 00:38:40,130
Q: He flew with, now it's called Air Serbia...
691
00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:42,150
Simon: That must have been the reason.
692
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:45,350
Q: Yes, it must have, I just wanted to check...
693
00:38:45,350 --> 00:38:47,770
Simon: Sure, thanks!
694
00:38:47,770 --> 00:38:49,770
applause
695
00:38:49,770 --> 00:38:53,000
Herald: We have a question from the internet...
696
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,610
Signal Angel: Yes, frankie2 is asking, how
does this
697
00:38:57,610 --> 00:39:00,140
compare to today's surveillance?
698
00:39:00,140 --> 00:39:04,610
Simon: The problem is, in a way, that is a
699
00:39:04,610 --> 00:39:08,310
treasure trove, but it's a very weird one.
700
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:13,040
If I could decide, freely choose, what material
to look at,
701
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,690
I would definitely look at, try to look at,
the
702
00:39:15,690 --> 00:39:17,670
last two weeks of NSA's surveillance.
703
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:20,290
Like we all would.
704
00:39:20,290 --> 00:39:26,090
But, unfortunately, this is as close as we
can get this kind of material.
705
00:39:26,090 --> 00:39:33,800
But keep in mind, back in it's days the Stasi
was at least as sophisticated as the BND.
706
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,430
In fact, they were more advanced in the technology
they used.
707
00:39:38,430 --> 00:39:42,360
And the Stasi would definitely use the same
708
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,210
techniques BND and CIA and everyone else uses
today.
709
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:52,320
They would try to listen in on our phone conversations.
710
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:57,960
That might not be the right material to look at
from a technological point of view.
711
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,530
But I think this material is
very interesting and important
712
00:40:01,530 --> 00:40:03,630
if you want to find out something about their
713
00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:08,880
state of mind. Which is, absurd. And keep
in mind,
714
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,110
the excuse you hear from the NSA,
715
00:40:12,110 --> 00:40:16,170
they just want to protect the law, and that
is why they break the law,
716
00:40:16,170 --> 00:40:20,210
that's an excuse you regularly find with the
Stasi as well.
717
00:40:20,210 --> 00:40:24,940
And you find parallels, and that's why it's
very important to look at this material.
718
00:40:24,940 --> 00:40:28,120
Even though it's very old.
719
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,050
And back then, the whole archive, consists
out
720
00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:33,570
of somewhere between one and two million photographs.
721
00:40:33,570 --> 00:40:38,870
Which is absurdly little, if you think that
the system
722
00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:40,890
was in operation for forty years.
723
00:40:40,890 --> 00:40:43,550
That's fifty thousand picture a year.
724
00:40:43,550 --> 00:40:47,010
They had 85 thousand agents.
725
00:40:47,010 --> 00:40:48,800
From today's standards, that's nothing.
726
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,790
Today, they would be far more sophisticated
I guess.
727
00:40:51,790 --> 00:40:56,840
Herald: Thank you, we have a question over
there, is that a question, yes.
728
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,150
Q: Firstly, thank you for your talk.
729
00:41:00,150 --> 00:41:04,510
So, you showed that some of that archive had
been
730
00:41:04,510 --> 00:41:07,530
destroyed or attempts had been made.
731
00:41:07,530 --> 00:41:12,680
But there was still much to look through.
732
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,300
What happens in future generations,
733
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:18,560
given that now surveillance is done all digitally,
734
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:25,900
you said the Stasi had a number of weeks from
when the wall fell,
735
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,900
and they had time to destroy things,
736
00:41:28,900 --> 00:41:32,510
given now how quickly and easy it is
to erase digital
737
00:41:32,510 --> 00:41:36,510
information, what do you say to people coming
after you?
738
00:41:36,510 --> 00:41:39,390
Future generations, who might want to find
similar things
739
00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:43,360
in dissolved surveillance operations.
Are they completely stuffed?
740
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,320
Simon: Unless there is going to be a revolution,
741
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,540
they are not going to be able to look at anything.
742
00:41:47,540 --> 00:41:49,430
That would be my guess.
743
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:54,050
Because you need this abrupt shift in the
whole system,
744
00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:58,480
that pretty much decapitates this operation.
And so,
745
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,070
they lost everything, and now it is frozen
in time.
746
00:42:02,070 --> 00:42:04,200
So, the guy at the BND told me:
747
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,320
"It's up to us to decide what we reveal and
what not, because we have a veto."
748
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,540
Of course, nothing is then revealed.
749
00:42:11,540 --> 00:42:12,870
Ever.
750
00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:18,110
So, as long as this stays the policy, and
it is the policy currently everywhere,
751
00:42:18,110 --> 00:42:20,870
from what I understand,
752
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:23,880
you are not going to be able to look at anything.
753
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,220
I am not very optimistic in that respect.
754
00:42:30,620 --> 00:42:35,100
Next Question: How do you
decide
755
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:39,040
what faces to anonymise, and which not?
756
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:45,040
Simon: Besides the Czech Republic archive…
…with the Czech Images I did it.
757
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:50,440
With those images you can do anything and
whatever you want, and that's weird.
758
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,150
And terrible, in a way.
759
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:54,940
With the Stasi images, the archive had to
decide.
760
00:42:54,940 --> 00:43:00,020
And they decided on the basis that once you
work for,
761
00:43:00,020 --> 00:43:07,080
in an official position, in times of historical
importance,
762
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,360
- like that - you lose your privacy rights.
763
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,110
You don't share the same privacy rights.
764
00:43:12,110 --> 00:43:15,500
So, once we could find written evidence
765
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:21,860
that a person shown in the image
was working for the Stasi,
766
00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:24,930
like him or her,
767
00:43:24,930 --> 00:43:27,170
they lost their right of privacy.
768
00:43:27,170 --> 00:43:30,150
If the slightest doubt remained, it had to
be pixeled.
769
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:31,839
So it wasn't done by me.
770
00:43:31,839 --> 00:43:37,780
German privacy rights are very strict.
771
00:43:37,780 --> 00:43:43,830
Next Questioner: You said, when you talked
about surveillance,
772
00:43:43,830 --> 00:43:49,530
watching each other, that this would be the
highest state of surveillance.
773
00:43:49,530 --> 00:43:53,150
But don't you think that now there is a much
higher state,
774
00:43:53,150 --> 00:43:55,970
and also before things were much more clear,
775
00:43:55,970 --> 00:43:57,770
everybody knew that there was a regime
776
00:43:57,770 --> 00:44:00,290
trying to stay in power and trying to put
down everybody.
777
00:44:00,290 --> 00:44:05,830
But now, in a situation where they don't even
have to break the law,
778
00:44:05,830 --> 00:44:08,660
they just make it legal to surveil, like we
can see in France,
779
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:11,610
now with the law on intelligence,
780
00:44:11,610 --> 00:44:14,550
that passed just after the Charlie murders,
781
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:16,460
and now we got the murders again,
782
00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:18,360
and you have people who have
783
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:19,800
to stay in their home, because
784
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,210
the intelligence has said that
785
00:44:21,210 --> 00:44:22,770
they might protest, and they don't have
786
00:44:22,770 --> 00:44:26,120
to go through a judge, actually making it
legal.
787
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:32,280
And we are at a stage were people surveil
each other.
788
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,100
Simon: That's Facebook today.
- Yes, somehow.
789
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:40,400
applause
790
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,420
And the general problem with survellance operations
791
00:44:43,420 --> 00:44:48,350
- I would argue - and I hope someone here is
from the BND and they come forward
792
00:44:48,350 --> 00:44:52,100
and I give a talk to them,
because I would really like to find out.
793
00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:57,227
So please, my email was there -
794
00:44:57,227 --> 00:45:00,980
I would argue, is that this type
of surveillance can not work.
795
00:45:00,980 --> 00:45:04,340
What you are trying to find proof for
796
00:45:04,340 --> 00:45:08,810
is a state of mind, is thoughts,
is not something you did,
797
00:45:08,810 --> 00:45:13,970
but some things you think about,
or you might wanna do.
798
00:45:13,970 --> 00:45:16,610
And photography - I am a photographer -
799
00:45:16,610 --> 00:45:18,500
I know how bad photography is.
800
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:20,920
You were looking at images of landscapes,
801
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,210
where no sniper is visible, and each one of
you saw it.
802
00:45:25,210 --> 00:45:29,120
That's how bad photography is as evidence.
803
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,240
And this can be proof for everything.
And nothing.
804
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:36,270
Q: They don't need photography now.
805
00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:37,470
S: No, they use it.
806
00:45:37,470 --> 00:45:40,010
Q: They just bring the paper to the prefect
police,
807
00:45:40,010 --> 00:45:42,290
and he says 'okay, they're dangerous', and
tells
808
00:45:42,290 --> 00:45:43,800
them they have to stay at home.
809
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,630
S: Ja, but they need proof or evidence for
something.
810
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:50,210
Q: They don't.
811
00:45:50,210 --> 00:45:55,740
S: Maybe not... Now you leave behind such
a trail of evidence yourself.
812
00:45:55,740 --> 00:45:58,410
That could be read somewhere in the future.
813
00:45:58,410 --> 00:46:02,050
What happens in ten years, when in the US
814
00:46:02,050 --> 00:46:06,770
like smoking, drinking
isn't socially acceptable anymore.
815
00:46:06,770 --> 00:46:10,460
What happens to you then, with your Facebook
entry
816
00:46:10,460 --> 00:46:12,990
that's twenty years old then.
817
00:46:12,990 --> 00:46:17,030
It's a weird system, yeah, but…
shrugging
818
00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:20,240
Herald: We have another question from the
internet.
819
00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:24,440
Signal Angel: Somebody from IRC is asking
whether you have tried
820
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,190
to contact other agencies?
821
00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:31,410
S: Yes, like the BND, which was not very successful.
822
00:46:31,410 --> 00:46:37,170
And regarding the spies taking pictures of spies
I tried with the British archive.
823
00:46:37,170 --> 00:46:39,190
I know these pictures still exist.
824
00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:42,020
I know where they exist.
825
00:46:42,020 --> 00:46:45,070
But... sorry.
826
00:46:45,070 --> 00:46:50,810
With the Czech, I was asked by the Goethe
Institut to approach them.
827
00:46:50,810 --> 00:46:54,360
It was difficult and too lengthy
to explain now,
828
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,590
it was very difficult working with them.
829
00:46:56,590 --> 00:46:59,170
Language wise and because of the structure
830
00:46:59,170 --> 00:47:02,460
of the Archive itself.
831
00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:07,890
But they were very open, and if you want to
do more research,
832
00:47:07,890 --> 00:47:11,050
go to the Czech Republic first, because it's
much easier to work with them
833
00:47:11,050 --> 00:47:16,330
on a bureaucratic level, than with the Germans.
834
00:47:16,330 --> 00:47:21,050
But the Germans are, in a way, more organised.
835
00:47:21,050 --> 00:47:22,400
laughter
836
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,190
Well, they are Germans.
837
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:29,130
Herald: Your question:
838
00:47:29,130 --> 00:47:34,290
Q: How hard was it to get the material, although
it is not classified anymore?
839
00:47:34,290 --> 00:47:36,510
How much time did you invest?
840
00:47:36,510 --> 00:47:41,540
S: The hardest time was the waiting periods
in between requests.
841
00:47:41,540 --> 00:47:44,160
German bureaucracy takes forever.
842
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:50,540
But I am quite sure, I am from West Germany,
but now I have a huge file in this archive.
843
00:47:50,540 --> 00:47:52,600
Because they compile everything.
844
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,750
So they keep track of every picture you're
looking at.
845
00:47:55,750 --> 00:48:01,060
But the funny thing is, it's not hard at all,
you can do it as well.
846
00:48:01,060 --> 00:48:02,780
You don't have to be a researcher.
847
00:48:02,780 --> 00:48:06,360
And the archive considers research a human
right.
848
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,320
Which I learned then, and it's a very convenient
thing.
849
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:16,600
There are some elderly Stasi agents who spend
their retirement researching something something.
850
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,690
They can do that.
851
00:48:18,690 --> 00:48:24,390
And the weird thing was, most of the pictures,
no one had looked at before.
852
00:48:24,390 --> 00:48:29,470
That could be proven, because they keep track
of everything.
853
00:48:29,470 --> 00:48:32,950
The process is lengthy but very easy
854
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:36,940
Q: When you decided to dig through the archive,
855
00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:41,300
did you have to apply for a certain section.
856
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:44,890
or could you just walk in and say, show me
all your pictures.
857
00:48:44,890 --> 00:48:51,100
S: No, they were very open, they may have
closed after me.
858
00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:56,780
For them, it was strangely overwhelming,
the amount of feedback they got
859
00:48:56,780 --> 00:48:59,700
after my book came out.
860
00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:05,440
And they want to be left alone,
I think… (laughing)
861
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,480
You have to formulate it quite clearly.
862
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,050
Q: What exactly, your aim?
863
00:49:13,050 --> 00:49:20,170
S: A theme. But for me, because it was new
to me, and to them as well,
864
00:49:20,170 --> 00:49:24,940
the topic, 'Surveillance and Photography',
was very broad.
865
00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:30,750
Now they get requests like 'We want to see
what Simon Menner saw.'
866
00:49:30,750 --> 00:49:32,700
They don't accept something like this.
867
00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:34,490
So, you have to come up with something more
clever.
868
00:49:34,490 --> 00:49:37,300
Q: And how much time did you spend in their
dungeons?
869
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:40,180
S: Well, it took three years...
870
00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:44,880
On and off, but it's mostly waiting,
in between.
871
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,220
Be patient.
872
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:51,220
Herald: Okay, your question.
873
00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:54,840
Q: Modern state agencies,
including NSA and BND, have this
874
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,710
mentality of 'Collect it all' passive intelligence.
875
00:49:58,710 --> 00:50:01,830
It has this ability to minimise the impact
and damage.
876
00:50:01,830 --> 00:50:05,890
No human eyes looking at specific pieces of surveillance.
877
00:50:05,890 --> 00:50:08,160
Of course we know that's not true,
878
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,660
and they can zero-in if they want to.
879
00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:16,100
Doesn't this make it very difficult,
as an archivist how do you
880
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:19,220
try to understand the state of mind,
when you have so much data, unprocessed?
881
00:50:19,220 --> 00:50:28,920
How do you get in their mind, filtering through,
not no documents, but a hundred million documents?
882
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:35,170
S: One has to be very careful with such material,
because you look through their eyes.
883
00:50:35,170 --> 00:50:37,860
That can be dangerous.
884
00:50:37,860 --> 00:50:44,330
That's why I try not to provide that much
'background information'
885
00:50:44,330 --> 00:50:50,240
because, that would be text compiled by the
Stasi agents.
886
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:54,980
So there is guilty and not guilty written
in the text.
887
00:50:54,980 --> 00:50:58,500
And I don't want to look at these pictures
through their eyes.
888
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:03,680
But still I find it very revealing
to look at the raw material.
889
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,000
And the Stasi would have collected all
890
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:13,590
if they had been able, they opened every parcel
to East Germany, every letter.
891
00:51:13,590 --> 00:51:20,810
Paranoia wise, they were several steps ahead
of the NSA.
892
00:51:20,810 --> 00:51:26,740
They had a university, and when you were studying
there, you could do your PhD, but you
893
00:51:26,740 --> 00:51:30,260
weren't allowed to keep your notes during
the day,
894
00:51:30,260 --> 00:51:32,800
they were locked away.
895
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,700
In safes with doors on two sides...
896
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:38,340
So they would copy them at night,
897
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:40,780
And you weren't allowed to keep your PhD thesis,
898
00:51:40,780 --> 00:51:44,530
because it immediately became top secret.
899
00:51:44,530 --> 00:51:48,090
And that really is paranoia.
900
00:51:48,090 --> 00:51:54,440
I can not prove it. And that's
the problem with the whole thing,
901
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,450
because one side remains closed.
902
00:51:58,450 --> 00:52:03,140
And I guess they are
quite happy with that situation,
903
00:52:03,140 --> 00:52:08,160
they can still say, no, we did something else.
904
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,620
Well, we can't tell you, but it's not like
this.
905
00:52:11,620 --> 00:52:18,950
That is very vague, but I think the state
of mind is the same.
906
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:23,480
Q: What is the copyright on these pictures?
Are they in the public domain?
907
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,920
Can I use them for memes?
908
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,210
S: Uhm, no.
laughter
909
00:52:29,210 --> 00:52:33,770
Well, most are on my website in a low resolution.
910
00:52:33,770 --> 00:52:37,920
Which the archive doesn't like, but it's there.
911
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,530
The problem is that: There is a law that covers
the archive.
912
00:52:41,530 --> 00:52:46,650
It's not like other archives in Germany.
It has its own law.
913
00:52:46,650 --> 00:52:50,490
And that was written in the early 90's by
lawmakers.
914
00:52:50,490 --> 00:52:53,310
We all know them and love them.
915
00:52:53,310 --> 00:52:58,830
And they never thought of an artist coming
along and show them.
916
00:52:58,830 --> 00:53:03,480
So the law covers publication.
917
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:10,980
Once you got access to material,
you are allowed publicize it
918
00:53:10,980 --> 00:53:13,070
Nothing else is stated.
919
00:53:13,070 --> 00:53:17,910
But you aren't allowed to hand over the files.
920
00:53:17,910 --> 00:53:22,850
And I had lengthy debates with the Archive
about what that could mean.
921
00:53:22,850 --> 00:53:26,820
Since, when you have it on the website, you
hand out the files.
922
00:53:26,820 --> 00:53:29,830
But I said no, it's publicising it
-- no, no, no.
923
00:53:29,830 --> 00:53:31,790
So, what's the difference? Well,
924
00:53:31,790 --> 00:53:35,540
we don't really know but, ahem.
925
00:53:35,540 --> 00:53:39,230
So, it's tricky.
926
00:53:39,230 --> 00:53:45,250
And so many people copied it from my website,
so it is out there and gone.
927
00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:47,800
Which I think is good.
928
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,060
Herald: We have time for one more question.
929
00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:59,840
S: And I will be around, if you recognise
my bald head, talk to me.
930
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:04,710
Q; Where you able to access files other than
images?
931
00:54:04,710 --> 00:54:06,890
Like audio from phone surveillance?
932
00:54:06,890 --> 00:54:09,720
S: Ah, that is a very tricky thing.
933
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:14,170
You could listen to those, but getting them
is almost impossible.
934
00:54:14,170 --> 00:54:17,820
Because, German privacy laws again.
935
00:54:17,820 --> 00:54:27,040
And their argument is, whenever you speak,
you could reveal something private.
936
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,530
And that's their argument. Even though
you might be Erich Honecker
937
00:54:31,530 --> 00:54:37,880
or Helmut Kohl or something like that.
But still it could be private what you're saying.
938
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,600
That's why they could never release them, and
939
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:48,230
you could not publish that, because it could
be private.
940
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:57,850
So, it's a somewhat strange law.
But noone is going to change anymore.
941
00:54:57,850 --> 00:55:00,680
Herald: And the last question over here.
942
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:07,830
Q: I am interested from where you know
what was shown by the photographs.
943
00:55:07,830 --> 00:55:14,410
Were there captions like "spies spying on spy"
or thought you about an explanation by yourself?
944
00:55:14,410 --> 00:55:19,310
S: There are gazillions of km of files.
945
00:55:19,310 --> 00:55:25,330
And just very few photographs, so there is
always alot of background information.
946
00:55:25,330 --> 00:55:32,240
And the greatest thing… and why I…
people I am absolutely thankful towards
947
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:37,440
are the… - there were only ladies -
working really at the archive,
948
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:42,600
handing me the files, giving me copies.
Because the most important thing
949
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:46,350
- and that is always true
working with an archive -
950
00:55:46,350 --> 00:55:49,910
the trickiest part is, how do you find
something you don't know exists.
951
00:55:49,910 --> 00:55:52,880
Because you can't ask for it.
952
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:58,150
'I am really looking for ...
is there a birthday party?'
953
00:55:58,150 --> 00:56:00,460
You will never ask for something like this.
954
00:56:00,460 --> 00:56:05,760
But once you've earned the trust of the people
working there, they provide you
955
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,250
and provided me with these images.
956
00:56:08,250 --> 00:56:12,980
Because they knew, in what direction
I was looking for material.
957
00:56:12,980 --> 00:56:18,910
There was in most cases
background information.
958
00:56:18,910 --> 00:56:26,360
There was one image I didn't include in the
talk of a dead swan.
959
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,040
It's a famous set of four images.
960
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:38,170
It was only known that it was found in a vault
owned by Erich Mielke, the head of Stasi, personally.
961
00:56:38,170 --> 00:56:42,970
It's four images of a grave of
a dead swan with a GDR flag.
962
00:56:42,970 --> 00:56:47,840
That is very famous for being the biggest
mystery in the Stasi files,
963
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,610
because nothing can be found
about these images.
964
00:56:50,610 --> 00:56:53,530
I didn't include them in the talk, sorry.
965
00:56:53,530 --> 00:56:59,610
But it's a dead swan, very mysterious,
must have been important. laughter
966
00:56:59,610 --> 00:57:02,920
Herald: Thank you Simon, very much.
Simon: Thank you.
967
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,400
applause
968
00:57:08,817 --> 00:57:13,385
postroll music
969
00:57:13,385 --> 00:57:20,000
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