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preroll music
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Herald Angel: What does Big Brother see[br]while he is watching?
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Simon Menner is talking to you about this:
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"Uncovering Images from the secret Stasi Archives."
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He was born 1978 in southern Germany,
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now he lives and works in Berlin.
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He does a lot of stuff with photography
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and history. And he has been researching
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for three years in Stasi files and images.
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And he is going to show us why this is
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still relevant today, or even
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more relevant than ever. [br]Give him a warm welcome.
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applause
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Simon: thank you.
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I was told to use this rather than the
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lavalier mic, so I hope it works.
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First a disclaimer: I'm an artist
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I am not a historian, so my approach to
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the material I am going to show you is
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somewhat different from what you might expect
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from a regular historian. But we can
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discuss this as we go on.
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And very very briefly, before I am going
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to show you images I have found at the
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archive of the Stasi and some very few
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I have found at the archive of the BND -
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I am going to show you three bodies of work
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that brought me to my interest in the
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Stasi files. So, I am a trained artist.
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I'm a photographer and normally I do
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things like this. I am very interested in
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the relationship of perception... what
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perception does within the context
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of modern conflict. It turns out,
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more importantly, perception is a battle field.
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And fear is a weapon. And this is actually
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not just a set of landscape images.
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It is actually a set of photographs for
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which I had to have support by the German[br]Army.
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They supported me with snipers.
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They were hiding in the landscape and were
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aiming at the camera, and therefore at the
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viewer. Which is ... okay ... of course.
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So, the sniper would be here. And in most
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of the pictures from this series there is
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actually almost no trace to be seen from
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the sniper. But this is the way
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a sniper looks within the landscape.
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So they were ordered to aim at me.
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Even though I couldn't see them. So,
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sometimes, when they were posing, I told
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them: "Well, just don't hide behind a tree
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and I don't see you." And they told me:
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"No no, don't worry, we are aiming at you."
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laughter
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Of course, the whole thing is artificial.
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Because they would never choose this kind
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of setting and this kind of environment
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for their... To pose a threat.
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There's a sniper here, or
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there's a sniper here.
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But this is something that really plays an
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important role in today's conflicts
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That you try to occupy your opponent's mind.
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And influence his or her behaviour
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in that way, through creating fear. That's
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another set of images, it's based on
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handbooks by the US Army on how to
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construct booby traps out of ordinary
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objects. Like here, a TV set or radio.
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If you switch it on, it blows up. A box,
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or a pipe - as an artist, I find this
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image very intriguing, because there is
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this one very famous painting by Margritte
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´This is not a pipe' - actually, this is
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not a pipe, laughter
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even though it is supposed to look like a[br]pipe.
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applause
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So be aware, that's from the sixties, from
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the US Army, and these handbooks are now
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out there and used by the opposing forces.
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By forces they encounter. And the
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whole story behind these manuals is, well,
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you're supposed to create fear in your
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opponent. Here is a German chocolate bar,
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if you break it, it blows up in your face.
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Or a tea kettle. The more ordinary objects
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are, the more terrifying it becomes.
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Because once you realise that there is no
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way for you to avoid this idea of fear
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everything is dangerous. Of course
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the other side does this as well.
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This is from videos I found online.
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This is the last video frame before the blast.
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So the last video frame before a car bomb
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or roadside bomb or something like this
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explodes. And the same here.
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So, it's the same technique. The more I
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was... the more research I did,
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in this big topic of fear and
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perception within conflict,
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I started to think more and more
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about the topic of surveillance.
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Because the interesting aspect
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would be to look at images from, of
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surveillance. Because that would show us
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these mechanisms from the other side.
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but the strange thing is, we talk so much
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about surveillance. And much of what we
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talk about is image based. So,
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'Big Brother is watching you.'
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That has something to with images.
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But we take it for granted that there's
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nothing for us to see.
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Big Brother is watching us, but is hidden
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behind some curtains. But I came to realise
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that actually, withing the very unique
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history of Germany we have this huge
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opportunity in the Stasi archives that are
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accessible to the public, to do, try to
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show what Big Brother actually sees.
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And I approached them because I could only
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find written references to images they have.
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And asked them: "Why?"
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I could never find any images. So,
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do they still exist? And they told me:
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"Sure, come over." And that was the start
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of a three year, or lengthy, research project.
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And first I am going to show you images
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I was then, in the end, not really
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interested in. Images we know exist.
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So, from now on, that's authentic Stasi
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material. There is some from the Czech Republic
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ČSSR. I will point them out and in the end
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there is some from the BND, I'll point
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those out as well. That is something
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we expect to see: shots taken through
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button holes and surveillance industries.
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That's the US embassy in East Berlin.
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And the entrance doors were all under
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constant surveillance. With photo cameras
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and video cameras. But be aware, in the 80s
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the video equipment was not that sophisticated.
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So, at night time, the Stasi did record
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eight hours of darkness. But it still
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ended up in the files. laughter
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That's the state of mind we are talking about.
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So, everyone was photographed,
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and then we have, quite often we find post
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boxes, where everyone posting a letter is
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photographed. No matter, who he or she is.
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Even if it's an elderly lady. Remember
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these images, because I am going to
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reference to them later. I was more interested
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in something like this. So, the
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internal view. And now, two years ago I
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was able to publish a book and now I am
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going to somewhat follow the structure
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within the book, because I was really
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interested in how do you become a spy?
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And I encountered a lot of material
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that was meant for training purposes.
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These images are from a training session
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on how to disguise yourself as regular citiizens.
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laughter
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Which I found quite strange, because
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normally that's nothing you should have to[br]learn.
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But still, and then you have a soldier.
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These ordinary citizens: some of them look
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like they live now in Berlin, amongst the[br]hipsters
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like this one laughter that was entitled
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'Western Tourist' laughter
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Another tourist, like, the photographer.
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So, the Stasi photographed something that
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tried to look like a photographer. So.
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Women work for the Stasi as well.
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The same thing, disguising manuals.
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What do you need to dress up like this.
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And in what circumstance would you use
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something like this. He looks like from
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'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' I think.
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But be aware, that's not meant to be funny.
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That was not meant to be seen by any one
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of you or me. That was meant to train agents.
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And we are going to see later it was
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actually used, here we have a hitchhiker,
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at a motor way around Berlin. And that is
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from the ČSSR archives to which I was
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granted acces earlier this year. They did
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the same thing, so it's not just something
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the Stasi did, they did it as well.
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And then you had other certain aspects of
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how to disguise, like how to wear a wig.
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Or how to stick a fake mustache.
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For privacy concerns, the images had to
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be pixeled. But I could see the faces
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while researching the archives.
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Much funnier, actually. So, to stick fake
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mustaches... Then, again from the ČSSR,
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you could also disguise cars. Like,
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you could draw something that's from a
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steel mill in the ČSSR. And then, in a way
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a disguised stroller, with a video camera.
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And that is actually a video camera from
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Japan, they imported this type of surveillance
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equipment quite frequently. Then you
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encounter other material, like how to
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transmit secret signals and how to transmit
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codes, the codes are not known now,
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but still, the photos exist and they have
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a strange beauty in them.
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And then, once you got your training, you
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had got to be taught how to arrest someone.
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And then you first knock the door, and
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then you arrest him and - notice the piece
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of cloth on the floor, cause they didn't
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want to ruin his white shirt -
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and maybe he wants to fight, so you have
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to fight laughter So. But the Stasi[br]always
0:11:21.560,0:11:25.910
wins. And again, the ČSSR they took things
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very seriously. Things they wanted to
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escalate much quicker. So you have to shoot
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people - booh - and again,
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it quickly escalates, he has to be shot.
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And then, when you know that, you have to
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be taught how to follow people around.
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This - sometimes you find these very
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elaborate stories where you follow people
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around, this is just a very short exception.
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So, she is at the bakery, and then she goes
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to the doctor's office, which is already
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something the Stasi maybe shouldn't know.
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But still - and then she does a phone call
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And here she is smiling at the camera.
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Of course, the whole thing is staged for
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the colleagues. But this sometimes is
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very lengthy, you see this guy shopping,
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and shopping, and walking at Alexanderplatz,
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and meeting an other guy... It's like a
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photo love story. laughter
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And then they take the car and he gets off
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the car in the middle of the woods, and
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then he walks and an other car comes.
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And then they meet...
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Why do you take such pictures?
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What's the point of that? But still,
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that ends up at the archive.
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And is part of the training operation.
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Now, the training is done,
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This then is a real surveillance photograph,
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you see a black arrow, that's supposedly
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the person they were shadowing, and then
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you see, 'okay, we are not in the
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training manual anymore, but we are
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already a step ahead, and that's then the
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real material. He or she is followed
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around the country. Again, the Czech Republic,
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you have, like, ordinary citizens
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being shadowed entering a house.
0:13:21.629,0:13:24.819
After the shadowing comes also the
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breach of privacy. And here we have the
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room of a teenager, which looks very
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innocent to us - but I am very positive
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that this - I guess it's a guy -, that he
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never entered university in East Germany.
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Due to the fact that they could prove that
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he was a fan of 'Wile E. Coyote' and the
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United States, or so they thought, they
0:13:49.939,0:13:52.420
couldt prove. And they took such images
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as evidence for your thinking. Which is
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a problem of a surveillance operation,
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I would argue. And then here we have,
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- I don't know if you can see - there
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might be the biggest Madonna fan of all of
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Communist Eastern Europe. laughter
0:14:08.509,0:14:11.550
Same thing, probably would never be able
0:14:11.550,0:14:16.870
to study law, or medicine, or something
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like that. And then you have, frequently,
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- sorry, cover your eyes maybe - frequently
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you have images such as this. And that was
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classified as 'Western Pornography', and
0:14:28.990,0:14:32.220
the funny thing about this classification
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is, very often you find files, that read
0:14:34.670,0:14:37.860
'Western Pornography', and the photographs
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are missing. laughter
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So, someone went to this appartment,
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documented everything, archived it, and
0:14:46.139,0:14:49.259
maybe the guy was persecuted, and when no
0:14:49.259,0:14:51.559
one was looking, they took the pictures.
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Which then shows the absurd nature of the
0:14:56.069,0:15:02.019
system. For me, this is a very... key image.
0:15:02.019,0:15:05.490
And a set of images. But this is actually
0:15:05.490,0:15:07.629
one of the images that brought me to
0:15:07.629,0:15:11.629
contacting the Stasi Archive. I read about
0:15:11.629,0:15:13.990
those images, this is a Polaroid, as you
0:15:13.990,0:15:16.160
can see by the white background.
0:15:16.160,0:15:19.870
And, as a matter of fact, the Stasi
0:15:19.870,0:15:21.949
frequently purchased Polaroid films or
0:15:21.949,0:15:25.339
confiscated ones sent to East Germany.
0:15:25.339,0:15:26.730
And the reason for that was, when they
0:15:26.730,0:15:28.970
broke into peoples' homes, and you should
0:15:28.970,0:15:31.480
never find out, the easiest thing was: You
0:15:31.480,0:15:34.319
break in, you look around, what's interesting,
0:15:34.319,0:15:37.519
you take a Polaroid, and with the help of
0:15:37.519,0:15:39.509
the Polaroid you are able to put everything
0:15:39.509,0:15:41.899
back into the original position.
0:15:41.899,0:15:45.990
So, this is an absolutely brutal image.
0:15:45.990,0:15:48.269
Because it shows the deepest possible
0:15:48.269,0:15:52.209
breach of privacy imaginable.
0:15:52.209,0:15:54.920
And most people in fact never found out
0:15:54.920,0:15:57.559
their apartment was searched, and that was
0:15:57.559,0:16:00.240
absolutely illegal, even in East Germany.
0:16:00.240,0:16:03.220
And, so it was very revealing last year,
0:16:03.220,0:16:04.779
a German TV Station thought it was a clever
0:16:04.779,0:16:06.949
idea to bring me, hook me up with a
0:16:06.949,0:16:10.809
former Stasi general. And he - And I told
0:16:10.809,0:16:13.170
him about the Polaroids. And he said:
0:16:13.170,0:16:16.709
"Yeah, but, eh, ähm, please, keep in mind,
0:16:16.709,0:16:19.990
I've, I never broke into peoples' apartments."
0:16:19.990,0:16:22.600
And I said: "Yeah, well, did you order it?"
0:16:22.600,0:16:24.740
"Yes I ordered it, but I never broke
0:16:24.740,0:16:26.089
into peoples' houses!"
0:16:26.089,0:16:29.300
And I thought, what stupid excuse is that?
0:16:29.300,0:16:31.009
Who then is responsible? Because normally
0:16:31.009,0:16:33.939
the excuse is always, oh, I was ordered to.
0:16:33.939,0:16:35.970
And his excuse was, yeah, I just ordered
0:16:35.970,0:16:37.709
them, but I didn't really, why would
0:16:37.709,0:16:40.889
they do it? gasping I just ordered[br]it...
0:16:40.889,0:16:45.619
Was not my intention... So that really was
0:16:45.619,0:16:47.470
revealing to me, like, the state of mind
0:16:47.470,0:16:51.519
within such a system. So, you have
0:16:51.519,0:16:54.059
folders and folders and folders of those
0:16:54.059,0:16:56.259
Polaroids. And when they found something
0:16:56.259,0:16:58.860
incriminating, they might have returned
0:16:58.860,0:17:01.069
a few days later with the police and a
0:17:01.069,0:17:02.639
search warrant. Because they needed a
0:17:02.639,0:17:05.148
search warrant, even in East Germany.
0:17:05.148,0:17:10.839
So, and now we realise, even though it looks
0:17:10.839,0:17:13.148
funny, the way they disguise themselves,
0:17:13.148,0:17:15.648
it's meant seriously. And it's a terrible,
0:17:15.648,0:17:18.140
brutal system. Which you also see in these
0:17:18.140,0:17:20.220
images from the ČSSR, where the people
0:17:20.220,0:17:24.059
are forced to stage their own attempt of
0:17:24.059,0:17:26.619
fleeing the country. So they were made
0:17:26.619,0:17:30.000
to stage the thing they were arrested for.
0:17:30.000,0:17:34.090
Even a young child was made to reenact
0:17:34.090,0:17:36.350
their failed attempt to flee the country,
0:17:36.350,0:17:37.860
and this is brutal.
0:17:37.860,0:17:42.630
And, so, sometimes you find images that
0:17:42.630,0:17:45.980
are completely out of any category.
0:17:45.980,0:17:47.130
laughter
0:17:47.130,0:17:50.970
Like a guinea pig - I told you earlier - to
0:17:50.970,0:17:53.970
think back - remember the post box with
0:17:53.970,0:17:57.590
the old lady. That's an image of one of
0:17:57.590,0:18:02.610
those files. So you have an image of
0:18:02.610,0:18:04.720
a post box, you see it, taken from a high
0:18:04.720,0:18:09.029
angle. And, maybe, out of a private apartment.
0:18:09.029,0:18:11.860
And my, and then, you have this shot after
0:18:11.860,0:18:14.149
shot after shot. And two pictures of
0:18:14.149,0:18:15.830
this guinea pig.
0:18:15.830,0:18:17.029
And then the surveillance operation
0:18:17.029,0:18:20.610
continues. And what I read out of that is
0:18:20.610,0:18:22.539
that he was in a private apartment, and
0:18:22.539,0:18:27.059
was bored - and there ran this guinea pig.
0:18:27.059,0:18:29.850
And he lies flat on the ground,
0:18:29.850,0:18:32.320
takes two shots, and then continues the
0:18:32.320,0:18:35.390
surveillance operation. Knowing, that the
0:18:35.390,0:18:38.779
material is going to end up at the archive.
0:18:38.779,0:18:41.960
And gets its archive number.
0:18:41.960,0:18:46.549
That's German bureaucracy, I guess.
0:18:46.549,0:18:49.190
Very revealing - so these guys, that's
0:18:49.190,0:18:52.250
actually a British spy, there were some
0:18:52.250,0:18:56.210
officially registered Western spies within
0:18:56.210,0:18:58.250
East Germany. The Russians had the same
0:18:58.250,0:19:01.309
thing for West Germany. And the Stasi's
0:19:01.309,0:19:04.710
job was to follow them and document what
0:19:04.710,0:19:06.370
they were doing. They couldn't do anything
0:19:06.370,0:19:09.299
to them, they could only document it.
0:19:09.299,0:19:11.870
And you find many of these images.
0:19:11.870,0:19:13.820
A spy taking a picture of a spy, in an
0:19:13.820,0:19:17.830
endless circle of surveillance. laughter
0:19:17.830,0:19:19.860
And what's very revealing is the fact
0:19:19.860,0:19:23.580
that I tried to gain access to the, to
0:19:23.580,0:19:27.529
their material - it's still classified.
0:19:27.529,0:19:28.409
laughter
0:19:28.409,0:19:31.240
I am very positive I know what the images
0:19:31.240,0:19:33.700
show: It's very much the same thing.
0:19:33.700,0:19:34.630
laughter
0:19:34.630,0:19:38.500
But, so, I tried to understand what
0:19:38.500,0:19:41.230
these people are thinking. But, it turns out,
0:19:41.230,0:19:42.840
even though they were fighting each other,
0:19:42.840,0:19:45.190
they seemed to share a very common
0:19:45.190,0:19:46.570
state of mind.
0:19:46.570,0:19:50.519
But, so, that looks like the end point
0:19:50.519,0:19:51.480
of surveillance.
0:19:51.480,0:19:53.260
No, it's not.
0:19:53.260,0:19:57.380
It's one step further: Stasi agents,
0:19:57.380,0:20:01.090
watching Stasi agents watching other people.
0:20:01.090,0:20:05.559
That's a triangle of surveillance, ja.
0:20:05.559,0:20:08.350
Common as well, never be sure about
0:20:08.350,0:20:11.149
your colleagues, they could be up to something.
0:20:11.149,0:20:14.620
So, better spy on them as well.
0:20:14.620,0:20:18.240
But then, I present you, the absolute
0:20:18.240,0:20:21.140
high point and end point of surveillance:
0:20:21.140,0:20:23.800
Which is the surveillance selfie.
0:20:23.800,0:20:30.180
laughter and applause
0:20:33.950,0:20:36.960
I give you another one.
0:20:38.400,0:20:40.899
And they knew it was going to end up at
0:20:40.899,0:20:42.809
the archive. So they are spying on
0:20:42.809,0:20:44.990
themselves, while spying on others, while
0:20:44.990,0:20:46.070
they are spying on themselves.
0:20:46.070,0:20:49.789
So, it's this: it's almost meditative.
0:20:49.789,0:20:53.330
And now, who are these people?
0:20:53.330,0:20:55.580
Now we are really at the internal view.
0:20:55.580,0:20:59.250
The Stasi looks at itself. Here is a
0:20:59.250,0:21:01.370
group photo. Remember this guy -
0:21:01.370,0:21:03.309
we encounter him later.
0:21:03.309,0:21:07.990
That happens to be the phone surveillance[br]unit.
0:21:07.990,0:21:09.940
Highest ranking officials here,
0:21:09.940,0:21:12.429
that's the boss of the whole bunch.
0:21:12.429,0:21:15.919
And, of course, the Stasi, Eastern Europe...
0:21:15.919,0:21:18.559
they like their medals. And then an
0:21:18.559,0:21:23.700
award ceremony. Flowers, medal, piece of paper.
0:21:23.700,0:21:24.760
And there is the guy from the phone
0:21:24.760,0:21:27.919
surveillance unit, again, so, he gets
0:21:27.919,0:21:33.549
really shabby flowers. And, piece of paper.
0:21:33.549,0:21:37.510
That's odd: see this, the wax seal? And,
0:21:37.510,0:21:40.100
it's burnt at the side?
0:21:40.100,0:21:44.330
Because: He was knighted.
0:21:44.330,0:21:48.659
A knight of the phone surveillance unit.
0:21:48.659,0:21:54.590
timid laughter, applause
0:21:54.590,0:21:57.700
See this, to the Non-Germans here:
0:21:57.700,0:22:01.669
That Section Symbol stands for the Code of[br]Law,
0:22:01.669,0:22:05.380
this isn't widely used outside Germany,
0:22:05.380,0:22:08.519
He knew that they were breaking the law,
0:22:08.519,0:22:10.200
and they're mocking it.
0:22:10.200,0:22:13.440
They're mocking it with this ceremony.
0:22:13.440,0:22:14.919
So now, here, you are the knight
0:22:14.919,0:22:16.720
of the phone surveillance unit.
0:22:16.720,0:22:20.130
Congratulations. Haha, what a good joke.
0:22:20.130,0:22:21.990
Another set of images, which is very
0:22:21.990,0:22:27.179
revealing, is this:
0:22:27.179,0:22:30.010
Strange finding in the Stasi archive.
0:22:30.010,0:22:32.159
A strange combination, see. The bishop
0:22:32.159,0:22:35.980
and a soccer player, and back there,
0:22:35.980,0:22:39.929
with the blue shirt, that's a Party youth
0:22:39.929,0:22:44.970
member. And see the ballerina there?
0:22:44.970,0:22:49.460
Strange. The guy in the suit: It's his
0:22:49.460,0:22:51.610
birthday. And he is the boss of them.
0:22:51.610,0:22:56.419
Theses are all highest ranking Stasi officials.
0:22:56.419,0:22:58.909
And they're surprising him with a birthday[br]party.
0:22:58.909,0:23:00.890
And the surprise is to dress up as
0:23:00.890,0:23:05.000
those people you put under surveillance.
0:23:05.000,0:23:10.210
So, see, Party Youth, soccer player,
0:23:10.210,0:23:13.409
another soccer player, the ballerina.
0:23:13.409,0:23:16.850
Beautiful, very beautiful.
0:23:16.850,0:23:18.200
Soccer fan, of course you have to put
0:23:18.200,0:23:20.490
them under surveillance. A doctor!
0:23:20.490,0:23:24.200
Of course, who cares about the right
0:23:24.200,0:23:27.710
to confidentiality of doctors. A judge.
0:23:27.710,0:23:32.559
Of course, you have to put that judge under[br]surveillance.
0:23:32.559,0:23:37.289
And that is a disguise, a dress-up,
0:23:37.289,0:23:40.909
hardly to be understood outside Germany.
0:23:40.909,0:23:45.399
He's dressed up as a peace activist.
0:23:45.399,0:23:48.950
He wears this 'Swords to ploughshares'
0:23:48.950,0:23:50.299
("Schwerter zu Pflugscharen') sticker
0:23:50.299,0:23:53.330
on his head, and some other peace stickers
0:23:53.330,0:23:56.419
there, and he is very proud of himself.
0:23:56.419,0:24:01.080
Why is that? Because it was such a successful
0:24:01.080,0:24:03.960
costume...
0:24:03.960,0:24:07.070
I think: 'Where did the get the costume from?'
0:24:07.070,0:24:10.340
The easiest thing, for someone
0:24:10.340,0:24:12.250
like him, would be to take it from
0:24:12.250,0:24:14.649
somebody he put in jail.
0:24:14.649,0:24:16.409
Because you could at least lose access
0:24:16.409,0:24:19.070
to university for wearing one of these stickers.
0:24:19.070,0:24:21.169
At least. Or you could serve some, short,
0:24:21.169,0:24:24.240
time, but some time in jail.
0:24:24.240,0:24:26.799
You could lose access to good housing and
0:24:26.799,0:24:30.320
everything. Why is he able to mock it?
0:24:30.320,0:24:32.049
Because he is the one who would decide
0:24:32.049,0:24:35.299
whether or not you lose access...
0:24:35.299,0:24:38.049
And this is the terrible thing about these[br]images.
0:24:38.049,0:24:40.710
They are very revealing.
0:24:40.710,0:24:47.659
--I am very fast...--
0:24:47.659,0:24:52.470
So, these images are now, what,
0:24:52.470,0:24:55.880
25, 30, years old. Why do I think they
0:24:55.880,0:24:59.110
are still relevant today?
0:24:59.110,0:25:01.380
It's because of something like this:
0:25:01.380,0:25:03.809
there was a short period, after
0:25:03.809,0:25:05.820
the fall of the Berlin Wall, so the
0:25:05.820,0:25:11.360
Wall fell in November '89, and the Stasi
0:25:11.360,0:25:14.230
wasn't desolved until January. So there
0:25:14.230,0:25:15.760
was a very short period of time
0:25:15.760,0:25:17.389
where the Stasi could actually try to
0:25:17.389,0:25:20.659
destroy material. They managed to do
0:25:20.659,0:25:23.700
destroy a huge bunch of material.
0:25:23.700,0:25:29.500
Not very important sets - except for
0:25:29.500,0:25:33.620
espionage, that's almost gone.
0:25:33.620,0:25:36.340
But if it would have been up to them,
0:25:36.340,0:25:39.929
that would have been the fate of all these[br]images.
0:25:39.929,0:25:42.059
Destruction.
0:25:42.059,0:25:43.679
We would have had never been able to look
0:25:43.679,0:25:47.690
at these images. And,
0:25:47.690,0:25:49.220
even though we don't know what these images
0:25:49.220,0:25:51.860
stand for - that's a group of gay men -
0:25:51.860,0:25:54.779
and they infiltrated it and it was
0:25:54.779,0:25:56.350
compromising to one of their colleagues
0:25:56.350,0:25:58.490
that they infiltrated it, they did things
0:25:58.490,0:26:03.480
like that. But, they tried to destroy it.
0:26:03.480,0:26:06.409
So, 25 years after the fall of the Berlin[br]Wall,
0:26:06.409,0:26:09.360
even more now, why do I
0:26:09.360,0:26:11.620
still think this material is really relevant?
0:26:11.620,0:26:13.950
I am going to show you something
0:26:13.950,0:26:17.630
that's even more special and more rare,
0:26:17.630,0:26:20.549
than the material I showed you just now.
0:26:20.549,0:26:23.019
It's this:
0:26:23.019,0:26:24.820
Over the course of approximately a year
0:26:24.820,0:26:28.730
I tried to convince the BND to grant me
0:26:28.730,0:26:31.169
access to their material. Which would
0:26:31.169,0:26:33.220
be amazing because in Germany we have
0:26:33.220,0:26:36.120
this one society with the two
0:26:36.120,0:26:38.760
opposing systems. So the view on the
0:26:38.760,0:26:42.980
cold war would be absolutely astonishing
0:26:42.980,0:26:45.299
if we would be able to look at all
0:26:45.299,0:26:47.080
the material.
0:26:47.080,0:26:50.250
And, after a year, I got the call,
0:26:50.250,0:26:51.730
and they told me: "yes, we have something
0:26:51.730,0:26:52.620
for you, come over."
0:26:52.620,0:26:56.220
There was actually, they have a small,
0:26:56.220,0:26:57.669
relatively small section in Berlin.
0:26:57.669,0:26:59.919
So I went there with my Scanner and they
0:26:59.919,0:27:01.919
gave me the - I would call them -
0:27:01.919,0:27:05.909
14 most boring pictures of
0:27:05.909,0:27:09.519
the BND history.
0:27:09.519,0:27:12.510
It's a match box.
0:27:12.510,0:27:14.510
This...
0:27:14.510,0:27:15.979
and that.
0:27:15.979,0:27:18.070
And, when I looked at these images,
0:27:18.070,0:27:19.799
I was like, 'are you kidding me?'
0:27:19.799,0:27:21.309
What do they show?
0:27:21.309,0:27:23.389
And this guy was very serious and told me:
0:27:23.389,0:27:24.880
"Unfortunately I can't tell you because
0:27:24.880,0:27:28.759
the information is still classified."
0:27:28.759,0:27:31.850
laughter
0:27:31.850,0:27:37.309
But then, he told me, as far as
0:27:37.309,0:27:39.509
he knows, these are the only images
0:27:39.509,0:27:41.450
they ever released.
0:27:41.450,0:27:45.289
And, yeah, toothpaste.
0:27:45.289,0:27:48.000
There´s a huge problem I have
0:27:48.000,0:27:51.070
with this, of course.
0:27:51.070,0:27:53.970
Not with this young lady in particular,
0:27:53.970,0:27:56.600
but in general with these images.
0:27:56.600,0:28:00.779
They can decide which images to show.
0:28:00.779,0:28:03.880
And one of the guys I was in contact with[br]told me:
0:28:03.880,0:28:06.149
"Of course we have these disguise pictures...
0:28:06.149,0:28:08.830
and dress up, and things like that."
0:28:08.830,0:28:12.200
But, keep in mind, even though back then
0:28:12.200,0:28:14.710
he might have been the lowest in the hierarchy.
0:28:14.710,0:28:17.600
He might be the head of the department now.
0:28:17.600,0:28:20.700
Or the one who brought in the guy who is now
0:28:20.700,0:28:22.480
the head of the department.
0:28:22.480,0:28:25.070
Of course it's not in their interest
0:28:25.070,0:28:28.179
for these images to be released.
0:28:28.179,0:28:32.159
And then I think, 'but it's in my interest'
0:28:32.159,0:28:35.720
And in our interest, to decide, what images
0:28:35.720,0:28:38.559
are worth looking at or not.
0:28:38.559,0:28:39.990
And there is another problem with images
0:28:39.990,0:28:45.070
like this. We have almost nothing that is
0:28:45.070,0:28:47.179
accessible from the Western archives.
0:28:47.179,0:28:50.950
This is rare, this is very special.
0:28:50.950,0:28:55.120
Looks like shit, but it's very special.
0:28:55.120,0:28:59.049
But we have a trove from the Eastern archives.
0:28:59.049,0:29:02.820
And there is always, like the Merkel, and[br]like, everyone --
0:29:02.820,0:29:07.820
when one of the Eastern countries decides,
0:29:07.820,0:29:13.299
'maybe we should limit access to our former[br]Stalinist archive...'
0:29:13.299,0:29:15.460
they say 'no, don't do that!!'
0:29:15.460,0:29:18.049
'it must be open' - but what happens when[br]we
0:29:18.049,0:29:20.580
have access to just one side?
0:29:20.580,0:29:23.779
And see all the terrible things they are doing?
0:29:23.779,0:29:26.090
And have no access to the other side?
0:29:26.090,0:29:29.289
I am not saying that the BND did the same[br]terrible things
0:29:29.289,0:29:32.269
the Stasi did. But the BND was certainly breaking
0:29:32.269,0:29:34.659
our laws as well...
0:29:34.659,0:29:37.299
And so, but it does look more innnocent,
0:29:37.299,0:29:39.350
because we only know, have access to a very
0:29:39.350,0:29:41.730
terrible looking archive.
0:29:41.730,0:29:43.559
And if we look to West Germany,
0:29:43.559,0:29:45.370
it's like: 'Nothing there.'
0:29:45.370,0:29:47.190
Must be fine...
0:29:47.190,0:29:49.250
And that is a terrible thing.
0:29:49.250,0:29:52.960
There is a lot wrong with that.
0:29:52.960,0:30:03.599
-- I am almost at the end, I was rushing through...sorry[br]--
0:30:03.599,0:30:10.649
-- But…I can show you two…well --
0:30:10.649,0:30:13.960
Just because I was too quick: from the Czech[br]archive,
0:30:13.960,0:30:18.000
two videos. audio isn't important.
0:30:18.000,0:30:21.899
Oh, sorry, maybe it's not going to work.
0:30:21.899,0:30:24.820
It seems things escalated much quicker.
0:30:24.820,0:30:29.159
In the ČSSR... than in ... Sorry...
0:30:29.159,0:30:44.490
Live in the ČSSR must have been very dangerous.
0:30:44.490,0:31:00.490
These weapons, everywhere...
0:31:00.490,0:31:09.260
soft, pacy music
0:31:21.210,0:31:23.419
But the best thing comes now:
0:31:23.419,0:31:28.800
laughter
0:31:35.620,0:31:42.020
Who would carry something like that, there.
0:31:42.020,0:31:50.629
applause
0:31:50.629,0:31:54.250
And just, if you wonder - that's a very long[br]film -
0:31:54.250,0:31:56.840
that's just a short part of it.
0:31:56.840,0:31:59.460
If you are ever attacked by someone with a[br]chair...
0:32:03.060,0:32:05.740
[in German] Ne, das ist nicht wichtig.
0:32:05.740,0:32:09.330
Audio ist ganz furchtbar.
0:32:09.330,0:32:11.879
That's like, six or seven times he shows that.
0:32:11.879,0:32:13.539
And now he shows it again.
0:32:13.539,0:32:15.990
And then it is going to be used, but look
0:32:15.990,0:32:19.799
closely how it is used, the technique they[br]just learned.
0:32:19.799,0:32:26.559
Okay, do this the next time you are attacked[br]by someone with a chair.
0:32:26.559,0:32:31.169
So, he is going to be attacked by someone[br]with a chair,
0:32:31.169,0:32:35.330
watch closely, he implements it quite properly.
0:32:35.330,0:32:37.809
laughter
0:32:37.809,0:32:41.759
Well, he didn't really.
0:32:41.759,0:32:49.610
And, things always, in this long film, always[br]escalate very quickly.
0:32:49.610,0:32:55.779
And here are two very long shots,
0:32:55.779,0:32:59.039
and you are supposed to spot them, that are
0:32:59.039,0:33:01.229
unnecessarily long...
0:33:05.349,0:33:09.919
laughter
0:33:09.919,0:33:14.169
So, of course they find the black guy smuggling.
0:33:14.169,0:33:16.440
And he explains to him now, in English:
0:33:16.440,0:33:21.720
'Do you have more?' And he says no, no.
0:33:21.720,0:33:25.169
And still, the porn is in the shot.
0:33:25.169,0:33:26.950
And then he tells him, yea, it's going to[br]be
0:33:26.950,0:33:29.389
very serious if you don't confess now.
0:33:29.389,0:33:31.210
And the black guy says. no, I don't have anything
0:33:31.210,0:33:32.749
to confess...
0:33:32.749,0:33:36.259
And now the guy on the left gets suspicious.
0:33:36.259,0:33:40.559
Look at him.
0:33:40.559,0:33:44.909
Very suspicious, this black young man.
0:33:44.909,0:33:52.040
He doesn't want to sign his confession.
0:33:55.360,0:33:58.659
He gets suspicious, too.
0:33:58.659,0:34:02.850
Very, very, very suspicious.
0:34:02.850,0:34:07.000
And, fortunately, the camera man made the[br]slight move to the left...
0:34:07.000,0:34:09.159
Not to zoom in on the penis [sic]
0:34:09.159,0:34:10.650
No, no, he doesn't have anything.
0:34:10.650,0:34:14.610
But it turns out, he has something.
0:34:14.610,0:34:18.540
Because he's black and suspicious looking.
0:34:18.540,0:34:20.659
See.
0:34:20.659,0:34:27.050
Oh, he's moving his arm.
0:34:40.630,0:34:43.650
laughter
0:34:51.970,0:34:55.090
So, it turns out his arm is not broken.
0:34:55.090,0:35:00.850
Sorry, that was somewhat long, but I rushed[br]through before.
0:35:00.850,0:35:04.390
And for some reason, he hides batteries
0:35:04.390,0:35:08.380
in his cast.
0:35:08.380,0:35:14.130
applause
0:35:16.250,0:35:23.080
So, he could bring in the watches, but he'd[br]better hide the batteries.
0:35:23.080,0:35:25.560
Because that is, whoo....
0:35:25.560,0:35:30.580
So - any questions?
0:35:30.580,0:35:43.430
applause
0:35:45.030,0:35:46.510
Herald Angel: thank you
0:35:46.510,0:35:49.140
Simon: I hope you got what you paid for...
0:35:49.140,0:35:49.970
laughter
0:35:49.970,0:35:55.930
Herald: Maybe before we start Q&A, everybody[br]who wants to leave, leave now.
0:35:55.930,0:35:57.700
Simon: oh wow.
0:35:57.700,0:36:01.130
Herald: We are going to take one minute so[br]you can leave
0:36:01.130,0:36:07.820
and the others who want to stay have it quiet[br]for the Q&A
0:36:30.190,0:36:34.800
And remember to use the rating system.
0:36:34.800,0:36:39.860
Simon: Oh, I brought post cards, if you want[br]some.
0:36:39.860,0:36:44.640
Because we have to make fun of them as much[br]as we can
0:36:44.640,0:36:49.020
applause
0:36:49.020,0:36:54.900
They're all the same motive, but take as many[br]as you want, if you want any.
0:37:01.610,0:37:03.870
Herald: Thank you
0:37:09.020,0:37:11.050
somenone too quietly to be understood
0:37:11.050,0:37:14.240
Simon: Uh, with the microphone, I guess
0:37:14.240,0:37:20.280
Herald: There are two microphones for Q&A, [br]no, four even, if you need them.
0:37:20.280,0:37:24.830
And we have questions from the internet.
0:37:27.120,0:37:29.010
Five seconds.
0:37:36.590,0:37:40.320
Okay. So, we will start with you!
0:37:40.320,0:37:46.440
Q: Just a short question, first, thanks for[br]the wonderful talk.
0:37:46.440,0:37:49.610
It was very very interesting.
0:37:49.610,0:37:51.640
Can you give us the title of your book, please?
0:37:51.640,0:37:55.530
Simon: Oh, it's pretty much top if you google[br]my name,
0:37:55.530,0:38:00.000
it's available in your local book store, or,[br]if you want, Amazon.
0:38:00.000,0:38:03.380
It's still available, but there are not that[br]many
0:38:03.380,0:38:07.210
copies left, starts acting so you should all [br]get it as soon as possible... laughter
0:38:07.210,0:38:09.610
It's just 'Top Secret' and Simon Menner...
0:38:09.610,0:38:14.190
Or just Menner, my family doesn't write that[br]many books... more laughter
0:38:15.380,0:38:18.520
Herald: Thank you, over here…
0:38:18.520,0:38:25.960
Q: Would you be so kind to go back to the[br]photo with Coyote and the American flag?
0:38:25.960,0:38:31.610
Because I thought I saw Yugoslav air transport[br]logo on the ...
0:38:31.610,0:38:34.110
yes, YAT,[br]there you see it.
0:38:34.110,0:38:36.070
Simon: Oh yea, here.
0:38:36.070,0:38:40.130
Q: He flew with, now it's called Air Serbia...
0:38:40.130,0:38:42.150
Simon: That must have been the reason.
0:38:42.150,0:38:45.350
Q: Yes, it must have, I just wanted to check...
0:38:45.350,0:38:47.770
Simon: Sure, thanks!
0:38:47.770,0:38:49.770
applause
0:38:49.770,0:38:53.000
Herald: We have a question from the internet...
0:38:53.000,0:38:57.610
Signal Angel: Yes, frankie2 is asking, how[br]does this
0:38:57.610,0:39:00.140
compare to today's surveillance?
0:39:00.140,0:39:04.610
Simon: The problem is, in a way, that is a
0:39:04.610,0:39:08.310
treasure trove, but it's a very weird one.
0:39:08.310,0:39:13.040
If I could decide, freely choose, what material[br]to look at,
0:39:13.040,0:39:15.690
I would definitely look at, try to look at,[br]the
0:39:15.690,0:39:17.670
last two weeks of NSA's surveillance.
0:39:17.670,0:39:20.290
Like we all would.
0:39:20.290,0:39:26.090
But, unfortunately, this is as close as we[br]can get this kind of material.
0:39:26.090,0:39:33.800
But keep in mind, back in it's days the Stasi[br]was at least as sophisticated as the BND.
0:39:33.800,0:39:38.430
In fact, they were more advanced in the technology[br]they used.
0:39:38.430,0:39:42.360
And the Stasi would definitely use the same
0:39:42.360,0:39:47.210
techniques BND and CIA and everyone else uses[br]today.
0:39:47.210,0:39:52.320
They would try to listen in on our phone conversations.
0:39:52.320,0:39:57.960
That might not be the right material to look at[br]from a technological point of view.
0:39:57.960,0:40:01.530
But I think this material is [br]very interesting and important
0:40:01.530,0:40:03.630
if you want to find out something about their
0:40:03.630,0:40:08.880
state of mind. Which is, absurd. And keep[br]in mind,
0:40:08.880,0:40:12.110
the excuse you hear from the NSA,
0:40:12.110,0:40:16.170
they just want to protect the law, and that[br]is why they break the law,
0:40:16.170,0:40:20.210
that's an excuse you regularly find with the[br]Stasi as well.
0:40:20.210,0:40:24.940
And you find parallels, and that's why it's[br]very important to look at this material.
0:40:24.940,0:40:28.120
Even though it's very old.
0:40:28.120,0:40:31.050
And back then, the whole archive, consists[br]out
0:40:31.050,0:40:33.570
of somewhere between one and two million photographs.
0:40:33.570,0:40:38.870
Which is absurdly little, if you think that[br]the system
0:40:38.870,0:40:40.890
was in operation for forty years.
0:40:40.890,0:40:43.550
That's fifty thousand picture a year.
0:40:43.550,0:40:47.010
They had 85 thousand agents.
0:40:47.010,0:40:48.800
From today's standards, that's nothing.
0:40:48.800,0:40:51.790
Today, they would be far more sophisticated[br]I guess.
0:40:51.790,0:40:56.840
Herald: Thank you, we have a question over[br]there, is that a question, yes.
0:40:56.840,0:41:00.150
Q: Firstly, thank you for your talk.
0:41:00.150,0:41:04.510
So, you showed that some of that archive had[br]been
0:41:04.510,0:41:07.530
destroyed or attempts had been made.
0:41:07.530,0:41:12.680
But there was still much to look through.
0:41:12.680,0:41:16.300
What happens in future generations,
0:41:16.300,0:41:18.560
given that now surveillance is done all digitally,
0:41:18.560,0:41:25.900
you said the Stasi had a number of weeks from[br]when the wall fell,
0:41:25.900,0:41:28.900
and they had time to destroy things,
0:41:28.900,0:41:32.510
given now how quickly and easy it is [br]to erase digital
0:41:32.510,0:41:36.510
information, what do you say to people coming[br]after you?
0:41:36.510,0:41:39.390
Future generations, who might want to find[br]similar things
0:41:39.390,0:41:43.360
in dissolved surveillance operations.[br]Are they completely stuffed?
0:41:43.360,0:41:45.320
Simon: Unless there is going to be a revolution,
0:41:45.320,0:41:47.540
they are not going to be able to look at anything.
0:41:47.540,0:41:49.430
That would be my guess.
0:41:49.430,0:41:54.050
Because you need this abrupt shift in the[br]whole system,
0:41:54.050,0:41:58.480
that pretty much decapitates this operation.[br]And so,
0:41:58.480,0:42:02.070
they lost everything, and now it is frozen[br]in time.
0:42:02.070,0:42:04.200
So, the guy at the BND told me:
0:42:04.200,0:42:08.320
"It's up to us to decide what we reveal and[br]what not, because we have a veto."
0:42:08.320,0:42:11.540
Of course, nothing is then revealed.
0:42:11.540,0:42:12.870
Ever.
0:42:12.870,0:42:18.110
So, as long as this stays the policy, and[br]it is the policy currently everywhere,
0:42:18.110,0:42:20.870
from what I understand,
0:42:20.870,0:42:23.880
you are not going to be able to look at anything.
0:42:23.880,0:42:27.220
I am not very optimistic in that respect.
0:42:30.620,0:42:35.100
Next Question: How do you [br]decide
0:42:35.100,0:42:39.040
what faces to anonymise, and which not?
0:42:39.040,0:42:45.040
Simon: Besides the Czech Republic archive…[br]…with the Czech Images I did it.
0:42:45.040,0:42:50.440
With those images you can do anything and[br]whatever you want, and that's weird.
0:42:50.440,0:42:52.150
And terrible, in a way.
0:42:52.150,0:42:54.940
With the Stasi images, the archive had to[br]decide.
0:42:54.940,0:43:00.020
And they decided on the basis that once you[br]work for,
0:43:00.020,0:43:07.080
in an official position, in times of historical[br]importance,
0:43:07.080,0:43:10.360
- like that - you lose your privacy rights.
0:43:10.360,0:43:12.110
You don't share the same privacy rights.
0:43:12.110,0:43:15.500
So, once we could find written evidence
0:43:15.500,0:43:21.860
that a person shown in the image[br]was working for the Stasi,
0:43:21.860,0:43:24.930
like him or her,
0:43:24.930,0:43:27.170
they lost their right of privacy.
0:43:27.170,0:43:30.150
If the slightest doubt remained, it had to[br]be pixeled.
0:43:30.150,0:43:31.839
So it wasn't done by me.
0:43:31.839,0:43:37.780
German privacy rights are very strict.
0:43:37.780,0:43:43.830
Next Questioner: You said, when you talked[br]about surveillance,
0:43:43.830,0:43:49.530
watching each other, that this would be the[br]highest state of surveillance.
0:43:49.530,0:43:53.150
But don't you think that now there is a much[br]higher state,
0:43:53.150,0:43:55.970
and also before things were much more clear,
0:43:55.970,0:43:57.770
everybody knew that there was a regime
0:43:57.770,0:44:00.290
trying to stay in power and trying to put[br]down everybody.
0:44:00.290,0:44:05.830
But now, in a situation where they don't even[br]have to break the law,
0:44:05.830,0:44:08.660
they just make it legal to surveil, like we[br]can see in France,
0:44:08.660,0:44:11.610
now with the law on intelligence,
0:44:11.610,0:44:14.550
that passed just after the Charlie murders,
0:44:14.550,0:44:16.460
and now we got the murders again,
0:44:16.460,0:44:18.360
and you have people who have
0:44:18.360,0:44:19.800
to stay in their home, because
0:44:19.800,0:44:21.210
the intelligence has said that
0:44:21.210,0:44:22.770
they might protest, and they don't have
0:44:22.770,0:44:26.120
to go through a judge, actually making it [br]legal.
0:44:26.120,0:44:32.280
And we are at a stage were people surveil[br]each other.
0:44:32.280,0:44:37.100
Simon: That's Facebook today.[br]- Yes, somehow.
0:44:37.100,0:44:40.400
applause
0:44:40.400,0:44:43.420
And the general problem with survellance operations
0:44:43.420,0:44:48.350
- I would argue - and I hope someone here is[br]from the BND and they come forward
0:44:48.350,0:44:52.100
and I give a talk to them, [br]because I would really like to find out.
0:44:52.100,0:44:57.227
So please, my email was there -
0:44:57.227,0:45:00.980
I would argue, is that this type [br]of surveillance can not work.
0:45:00.980,0:45:04.340
What you are trying to find proof for
0:45:04.340,0:45:08.810
is a state of mind, is thoughts, [br]is not something you did,
0:45:08.810,0:45:13.970
but some things you think about, [br]or you might wanna do.
0:45:13.970,0:45:16.610
And photography - I am a photographer -
0:45:16.610,0:45:18.500
I know how bad photography is.
0:45:18.500,0:45:20.920
You were looking at images of landscapes,
0:45:20.920,0:45:25.210
where no sniper is visible, and each one of[br]you saw it.
0:45:25.210,0:45:29.120
That's how bad photography is as evidence.
0:45:29.120,0:45:33.240
And this can be proof for everything.[br]And nothing.
0:45:33.240,0:45:36.270
Q: They don't need photography now.
0:45:36.270,0:45:37.470
S: No, they use it.
0:45:37.470,0:45:40.010
Q: They just bring the paper to the prefect[br]police,
0:45:40.010,0:45:42.290
and he says 'okay, they're dangerous', and[br]tells
0:45:42.290,0:45:43.800
them they have to stay at home.
0:45:43.800,0:45:48.630
S: Ja, but they need proof or evidence for[br]something.
0:45:48.630,0:45:50.210
Q: They don't.
0:45:50.210,0:45:55.740
S: Maybe not... Now you leave behind such[br]a trail of evidence yourself.
0:45:55.740,0:45:58.410
That could be read somewhere in the future.
0:45:58.410,0:46:02.050
What happens in ten years, when in the US
0:46:02.050,0:46:06.770
like smoking, drinking [br]isn't socially acceptable anymore.
0:46:06.770,0:46:10.460
What happens to you then, with your Facebook[br]entry
0:46:10.460,0:46:12.990
that's twenty years old then.
0:46:12.990,0:46:17.030
It's a weird system, yeah, but…[br]shrugging
0:46:17.030,0:46:20.240
Herald: We have another question from the[br]internet.
0:46:20.240,0:46:24.440
Signal Angel: Somebody from IRC is asking[br]whether you have tried
0:46:24.440,0:46:26.190
to contact other agencies?
0:46:26.190,0:46:31.410
S: Yes, like the BND, which was not very successful.
0:46:31.410,0:46:37.170
And regarding the spies taking pictures of spies[br]I tried with the British archive.
0:46:37.170,0:46:39.190
I know these pictures still exist.
0:46:39.190,0:46:42.020
I know where they exist.
0:46:42.020,0:46:45.070
But... sorry.
0:46:45.070,0:46:50.810
With the Czech, I was asked by the Goethe[br]Institut to approach them.
0:46:50.810,0:46:54.360
It was difficult and too lengthy [br]to explain now,
0:46:54.360,0:46:56.590
it was very difficult working with them.
0:46:56.590,0:46:59.170
Language wise and because of the structure
0:46:59.170,0:47:02.460
of the Archive itself.
0:47:02.460,0:47:07.890
But they were very open, and if you want to[br]do more research,
0:47:07.890,0:47:11.050
go to the Czech Republic first, because it's[br]much easier to work with them
0:47:11.050,0:47:16.330
on a bureaucratic level, than with the Germans.
0:47:16.330,0:47:21.050
But the Germans are, in a way, more organised.
0:47:21.050,0:47:22.400
laughter
0:47:22.400,0:47:25.190
Well, they are Germans.
0:47:25.190,0:47:29.130
Herald: Your question:
0:47:29.130,0:47:34.290
Q: How hard was it to get the material, although[br]it is not classified anymore?
0:47:34.290,0:47:36.510
How much time did you invest?
0:47:36.510,0:47:41.540
S: The hardest time was the waiting periods[br]in between requests.
0:47:41.540,0:47:44.160
German bureaucracy takes forever.
0:47:44.160,0:47:50.540
But I am quite sure, I am from West Germany,[br]but now I have a huge file in this archive.
0:47:50.540,0:47:52.600
Because they compile everything.
0:47:52.600,0:47:55.750
So they keep track of every picture you're[br]looking at.
0:47:55.750,0:48:01.060
But the funny thing is, it's not hard at all,[br]you can do it as well.
0:48:01.060,0:48:02.780
You don't have to be a researcher.
0:48:02.780,0:48:06.360
And the archive considers research a human[br]right.
0:48:06.360,0:48:09.320
Which I learned then, and it's a very convenient[br]thing.
0:48:09.320,0:48:16.600
There are some elderly Stasi agents who spend[br]their retirement researching something something.
0:48:16.600,0:48:18.690
They can do that.
0:48:18.690,0:48:24.390
And the weird thing was, most of the pictures,[br]no one had looked at before.
0:48:24.390,0:48:29.470
That could be proven, because they keep track[br]of everything.
0:48:29.470,0:48:32.950
The process is lengthy but very easy
0:48:32.950,0:48:36.940
Q: When you decided to dig through the archive,
0:48:36.940,0:48:41.300
did you have to apply for a certain section.
0:48:41.300,0:48:44.890
or could you just walk in and say, show me[br]all your pictures.
0:48:44.890,0:48:51.100
S: No, they were very open, they may have[br]closed after me.
0:48:51.100,0:48:56.780
For them, it was strangely overwhelming,[br]the amount of feedback they got
0:48:56.780,0:48:59.700
after my book came out.
0:48:59.700,0:49:05.440
And they want to be left alone,[br]I think… (laughing)
0:49:05.440,0:49:09.480
You have to formulate it quite clearly.
0:49:09.480,0:49:13.050
Q: What exactly, your aim?
0:49:13.050,0:49:20.170
S: A theme. But for me, because it was new[br]to me, and to them as well,
0:49:20.170,0:49:24.940
the topic, 'Surveillance and Photography',[br]was very broad.
0:49:24.940,0:49:30.750
Now they get requests like 'We want to see[br]what Simon Menner saw.'
0:49:30.750,0:49:32.700
They don't accept something like this.
0:49:32.700,0:49:34.490
So, you have to come up with something more[br]clever.
0:49:34.490,0:49:37.300
Q: And how much time did you spend in their[br]dungeons?
0:49:37.300,0:49:40.180
S: Well, it took three years...
0:49:40.180,0:49:44.880
On and off, but it's mostly waiting,[br]in between.
0:49:44.880,0:49:48.220
Be patient.
0:49:48.220,0:49:51.220
Herald: Okay, your question.
0:49:51.220,0:49:54.840
Q: Modern state agencies, [br]including NSA and BND, have this
0:49:54.840,0:49:58.710
mentality of 'Collect it all' passive intelligence.
0:49:58.710,0:50:01.830
It has this ability to minimise the impact[br]and damage.
0:50:01.830,0:50:05.890
No human eyes looking at specific pieces of surveillance.
0:50:05.890,0:50:08.160
Of course we know that's not true,
0:50:08.160,0:50:10.660
and they can zero-in if they want to.
0:50:10.660,0:50:16.100
Doesn't this make it very difficult,[br]as an archivist how do you
0:50:16.100,0:50:19.220
try to understand the state of mind,[br]when you have so much data, unprocessed?
0:50:19.220,0:50:28.920
How do you get in their mind, filtering through,[br]not no documents, but a hundred million documents?
0:50:28.920,0:50:35.170
S: One has to be very careful with such material,[br]because you look through their eyes.
0:50:35.170,0:50:37.860
That can be dangerous.
0:50:37.860,0:50:44.330
That's why I try not to provide that much[br]'background information'
0:50:44.330,0:50:50.240
because, that would be text compiled by the[br]Stasi agents.
0:50:50.240,0:50:54.980
So there is guilty and not guilty written[br]in the text.
0:50:54.980,0:50:58.500
And I don't want to look at these pictures[br]through their eyes.
0:50:58.500,0:51:03.680
But still I find it very revealing [br]to look at the raw material.
0:51:03.680,0:51:07.000
And the Stasi would have collected all
0:51:07.000,0:51:13.590
if they had been able, they opened every parcel[br]to East Germany, every letter.
0:51:13.590,0:51:20.810
Paranoia wise, they were several steps ahead[br]of the NSA.
0:51:20.810,0:51:26.740
They had a university, and when you were studying[br]there, you could do your PhD, but you
0:51:26.740,0:51:30.260
weren't allowed to keep your notes during[br]the day,
0:51:30.260,0:51:32.800
they were locked away.
0:51:32.800,0:51:35.700
In safes with doors on two sides...
0:51:35.700,0:51:38.340
So they would copy them at night,
0:51:38.340,0:51:40.780
And you weren't allowed to keep your PhD thesis,
0:51:40.780,0:51:44.530
because it immediately became top secret.
0:51:44.530,0:51:48.090
And that really is paranoia.
0:51:48.090,0:51:54.440
I can not prove it. And that's [br]the problem with the whole thing,[br]
0:51:54.440,0:51:58.450
because one side remains closed.
0:51:58.450,0:52:03.140
And I guess they are[br]quite happy with that situation,
0:52:03.140,0:52:08.160
they can still say, no, we did something else.
0:52:08.160,0:52:11.620
Well, we can't tell you, but it's not like[br]this.
0:52:11.620,0:52:18.950
That is very vague, but I think the state[br]of mind is the same.
0:52:18.950,0:52:23.480
Q: What is the copyright on these pictures?[br]Are they in the public domain?
0:52:23.480,0:52:25.920
Can I use them for memes?
0:52:25.920,0:52:29.210
S: Uhm, no.[br]laughter
0:52:29.210,0:52:33.770
Well, most are on my website in a low resolution.
0:52:33.770,0:52:37.920
Which the archive doesn't like, but it's there.
0:52:37.920,0:52:41.530
The problem is that: There is a law that covers[br]the archive.
0:52:41.530,0:52:46.650
It's not like other archives in Germany.[br]It has its own law.
0:52:46.650,0:52:50.490
And that was written in the early 90's by[br]lawmakers.
0:52:50.490,0:52:53.310
We all know them and love them.
0:52:53.310,0:52:58.830
And they never thought of an artist coming[br]along and show them.
0:52:58.830,0:53:03.480
So the law covers publication.
0:53:03.480,0:53:10.980
Once you got access to material, [br]you are allowed publicize it
0:53:10.980,0:53:13.070
Nothing else is stated.
0:53:13.070,0:53:17.910
But you aren't allowed to hand over the files.
0:53:17.910,0:53:22.850
And I had lengthy debates with the Archive[br]about what that could mean.
0:53:22.850,0:53:26.820
Since, when you have it on the website, you[br]hand out the files.
0:53:26.820,0:53:29.830
But I said no, it's publicising it [br]-- no, no, no.
0:53:29.830,0:53:31.790
So, what's the difference? Well,
0:53:31.790,0:53:35.540
we don't really know but, ahem.
0:53:35.540,0:53:39.230
So, it's tricky.
0:53:39.230,0:53:45.250
And so many people copied it from my website,[br]so it is out there and gone.
0:53:45.250,0:53:47.800
Which I think is good.
0:53:47.800,0:53:50.060
Herald: We have time for one more question.
0:53:50.060,0:53:59.840
S: And I will be around, if you recognise[br]my bald head, talk to me.
0:53:59.840,0:54:04.710
Q; Where you able to access files other than[br]images?
0:54:04.710,0:54:06.890
Like audio from phone surveillance?
0:54:06.890,0:54:09.720
S: Ah, that is a very tricky thing.
0:54:09.720,0:54:14.170
You could listen to those, but getting them[br]is almost impossible.
0:54:14.170,0:54:17.820
Because, German privacy laws again.
0:54:17.820,0:54:27.040
And their argument is, whenever you speak,[br]you could reveal something private.
0:54:27.040,0:54:31.530
And that's their argument. Even though [br]you might be Erich Honecker
0:54:31.530,0:54:37.880
or Helmut Kohl or something like that. [br]But still it could be private what you're saying.
0:54:37.880,0:54:41.600
That's why they could never release them, and
0:54:41.600,0:54:48.230
you could not publish that, because it could[br]be private.
0:54:48.230,0:54:57.850
So, it's a somewhat strange law. [br]But noone is going to change anymore.
0:54:57.850,0:55:00.680
Herald: And the last question over here.
0:55:00.680,0:55:07.830
Q: I am interested from where you know [br]what was shown by the photographs.
0:55:07.830,0:55:14.410
Were there captions like "spies spying on spy"[br]or thought you about an explanation by yourself?
0:55:14.410,0:55:19.310
S: There are gazillions of km of files.
0:55:19.310,0:55:25.330
And just very few photographs, so there is[br]always alot of background information.
0:55:25.330,0:55:32.240
And the greatest thing… and why I… [br]people I am absolutely thankful towards
0:55:32.240,0:55:37.440
are the… - there were only ladies - [br]working really at the archive,
0:55:37.440,0:55:42.600
handing me the files, giving me copies.[br]Because the most important thing
0:55:42.600,0:55:46.350
- and that is always true [br]working with an archive -
0:55:46.350,0:55:49.910
the trickiest part is, how do you find[br]something you don't know exists.
0:55:49.910,0:55:52.880
Because you can't ask for it.
0:55:52.880,0:55:58.150
'I am really looking for ... [br]is there a birthday party?'
0:55:58.150,0:56:00.460
You will never ask for something like this.
0:56:00.460,0:56:05.760
But once you've earned the trust of the people[br]working there, they provide you
0:56:05.760,0:56:08.250
and provided me with these images.[br]
0:56:08.250,0:56:12.980
Because they knew, in what direction [br]I was looking for material.
0:56:12.980,0:56:18.910
There was in most cases [br]background information.
0:56:18.910,0:56:26.360
There was one image I didn't include in the[br]talk of a dead swan.
0:56:26.360,0:56:30.040
It's a famous set of four images.
0:56:30.040,0:56:38.170
It was only known that it was found in a vault[br]owned by Erich Mielke, the head of Stasi, personally.
0:56:38.170,0:56:42.970
It's four images of a grave of [br]a dead swan with a GDR flag.
0:56:42.970,0:56:47.840
That is very famous for being the biggest[br]mystery in the Stasi files,
0:56:47.840,0:56:50.610
because nothing can be found [br]about these images.
0:56:50.610,0:56:53.530
I didn't include them in the talk, sorry.
0:56:53.530,0:56:59.610
But it's a dead swan, very mysterious, [br]must have been important. laughter
0:56:59.610,0:57:02.920
Herald: Thank you Simon, very much.[br]Simon: Thank you.
0:57:02.920,0:57:07.400
applause
0:57:08.817,0:57:13.385
postroll music
0:57:13.385,0:57:20.000
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