We begin with the name of Allah. Asalamu alaikum!
Welcome to another session of Maktab-e-Ghamidi.
As you know that we are trying to seek Ghamidi Sahab's point of view
on those 23 objections that are raised against him.
We talked in great detail about the beard and the veil.
The subject of 'Fitrah' had also commenced and an episode was completed.
As before, I will say that the objections people raise on
Ghamidi Sahab's thoughts on 'Fitrah'
and the ones who are interested must watch these episodes in sequence
because the discussion is in a sequential manner.
Thank You so much Ghamid Sahab for your time.
Ghamidi Sahab, in the first episode, we put a fundamental objection of people before you
In their view you had added one more source to the sources of religion
which is termed as Fitrah (Nature).
The thing that was asked is 'what is this thing called Nature?'
How do we access it and how did you come to pay attention to it?
Let's take this discussion forward.
In the last session Ghamidi Sahab, you had said that I study Fitrah
like I study any other things in the world.
And the knowledge that is available to will also be available in case of Fitrah.
My question is that the knowledge you had pointed out exists within human nature ...
is this knowledge just the name of this ability,
That is, between truth and falsehood,
well-known moral values, shame and indecency.
I consider them to be two different opportunities and possibilities.
Or is the Fitrah some kind of consciousness or ability
that helps me to choose the right one between the two?
[Ghamidi] See, I had said three things
I had argued that whenever anything is said about man, it will be based on Fitrah.
Human Knowledge and the knowledge about human is the study of Fitrah.
The knowledge of minerals is the study of
the nature of minerals.
The knowledge of plants is basically the study of the nature of plants.
If you talk about humans, then it will start from here.
As to what is the nature of a human being.
We have discussed in great detail as to what Fitrah means.
Now the thing is that what it really is?
That is, there is a potential ability, a consciousness installed inside of you.
The consciousness that is like a tree hidden in a seed, which is placed inside you
When it will have an external stimulus, you will reach a certain age,
the circumstances will create suitable conditions for it
then that thing will start to become knowledge.
I had told you how knowledge is created.
So it was submitted that it always starts with your introspection.
I have a sense and I study the external world with it.
I have an inner self with which I study my own existence.
These are the basic facts that are subjective.
That is, this is my study, this is my knowledge and this is my certainty.
Then to transform it into an objective reality and an objective knowledge,
the method of induction is adopted.
After the method of induction, when we come to a point
that this is really the matter for all human beings.
There is a common reality between them.
Now the condition arose for it to become knowledge.
Then comes the intellect and what does it do?
it starts to infer about its necessary implications and corollaries.
Its basic job is to make inferences.
With it the inferential knowledge comes into being.
When these things are combined in order, we say that the knowledge
about a certain thing has been created.
All your sciences, I had said that they are created in this way.
So when you study human nature ...
Now take a look and see all of your knowledge disciplines,
has it happened among them that the moment a desire for something arose
or what you call as ability, it appeared and some externality came from outside
and gave you that knowledge?
No, a human being creates that knowledge himself.
How can the knowledge that you create be created unconsciously?
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] That is, does it happen that the ability for sociology that
had been kept inside you ... an angel came from outside and sorted in order
all your knowledge of sociology?
Because there had been kept an ability for reception in you, so you accepted it.
And in this way the science of sociology came into being.
Does it happen like this?
[Hassan] No.
[Ghamidi] So when we study a human being ... I had submitted that
the decisive thing about it is what is my own consciousness and sense.
I open my eyes in this world, I reach the age of consciousness, I observe things,
that is, I see the sun and I call it a sun.
I look at this house and say that it is a house.
Now you will tell me that all I am saying is a delusion.
Whereas my knowledge starts from here itself.
That is, either it is my senses that bring this knowledge to me
or I possess an inner sense through which I study my inner self.
That is, the study of the self is either taking place internally
or the study of objects is taking place outside.
It is from this that I get the collection of facts or data with which my knowledge begins.
So take a look and see if all the sciences that have been created in the world
till date, are they only an expression of my ability?
Man has gone through all these stages in it.
That is, the way he seems to create a sense of the facts
as a result of his study and because of this,
those facts become an objective reality.
They pass through the method of induction and then the inference
of their necessary implications begins.
That is how the knowledge of economics and politics comes into being.
What are all these sciences? The study of human nature.
So the things that are related to religion in it are exactly of the same nature.
[Hassan] Right, Ghamidi Sahab we say that a man benefits from the external world,
from ones practical observations and the experiences of the people.
And he determines fitrah by making this journey of knowledge.
My question is that it is said that when in the external world, the tradition of knowledge
is present, superstitions, received wisdom is present, as is everything else.
A problem arises somewhere that my interiority is saying one thing
and the experience with people is saying something else.
What knowledge will be decisive in it to determine the fitrah (nature)?
[Ghamidi] We have had a discussion over it.
That is, a man by his nature carries the quality of critique within him.
Whatever comes in front of him, a criticism of it begins.
This critique also changes into the objective reality and after that
the premises of knowledge begin to change.
But what is the standard to decide what is wrong and what is right?
That which is in accordance with human nature.
That is, the things that you find in human nature and when something
comes in comformity to them, it finds an acceptance in the world.
When it clashes with them, then as many philosophies that you bring forth,
it is after a while that its flaws come to the light.
This is how knowledge grows and who has ever claimed certainty in this regard?
This is the history of the evolution of knowledge.
That is, I will make my own study.
When the study of my self brings forth to me an aggregate of facts
it will go through a whole series of criticism.
It is also passing on an individual level and it will also do so on a collective one.
All the sciences that you are taught in our universities and the way you get them,
do you accept them as they are?
They are parsed and analyzed on all the three levels.
That is, the collection of facts that you had arranged,
whether they be results of your inner introspection or your outer experiences.
Did you set it up correctly? Was there any mistake made in them?
Whether there anything wrong with the inductive process?
And in the end while deciding the necessary rational implications,
did you commit any error in your premises or in their arrangement?
So it passes through criticism and the sciences come to being with this.
These questions have a mindset behind them,
that our knowledge is a final and static thing is fed to us.
Knowledge of everything goes through these stages.
Science, what you think of as such a great enterprise, and because of which
many inventions and revelations have happened, and under whose shadow we are living today,
has this all happened in the blink of an eye?
Also, the facts that you apprehended in it, aren't they ever challenged?
In fact, theories are formed herein. How are they formed?
A collection of facts comes to us, it passes through the process of induction
and now the intellect makes inferences.
As long as it is in the realm of rational inference, it is an idea.
But this is a scientific idea. It is not something that you just say randomly.
It means as a result of induction of all the facts, something has been derived,
such evidences have been procured, which is capable of being converted into a rational inference.
As soon as this thing comes into existence a premise of knowledge comes to the fore.
Another person may rise up, and offer a critique of it.
This practice of criticism goes on and that is what leads to acceptance and denial of theories.
This is what the poet has describes as
'Tarashidum Parastidum Shikastam'
[Hassan] So Ghamidi Sahab, when you say this thing the rational question
that is raised on it is that let us agree that one has to pass through a stage,
after that there will be criticism and then some facts will emerge
which you will call as 'Fitrah'.
But if there is a science constantly under evolution,
if there are changes taking place in it everyday,
then how can it become a point of reference for you and me?
I will tell you to agree on Fitrah and you will say that I am studying it
and I will reach to that reality and will someday agree with it.
[Ghamidi] How are the sciences that you are studying and teaching now
becoming the point of reference?
In the same way. As long as they belong to a subjective study, they are for my own self.
If I have to make an individual decision, I will obviously do that
on my internal impressions.
The moment it becomes a knowledge, it will go through a process of induction.
So as a result of going through a process of induction,
the differences are removed.
That is, how an individual views it. How all people view it.
How are the different civilizations viewing it.
This is how all sciences are formed.
It is after this that the stage comes when you start inferring its rational implications.
The part that is practicable in it is immediately put into practice..
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] And the criticism keeps happening in it.
How have you made these democratic institutions that you have made?
The principles on which the world is governed at the moment,
the principles on which UN is formed, where did they come from?
Is it something that cannot be challenged?
You have drafted a constitution for your country,
obviously there are some facts that have been accepted together with their implications.
How did this practice of acceptance take place?
See, this is exactly the method of induction.
That is, the facts were the subjective in their own places.
When you brought all the political leaders together,
there was a discussion among them over it.
So it turned out that a consensus is developing.
See, the build up of consensus is a result of induction.
So as a result, you agree completely on a few things.
In some things you turned out to be different.
You framed a document and decided over it.
Even then, amendments are needed.
So if this is happening there, it is happening in other sciences as well.
[Hassan] But I abide by the constitution every day.
[Ghamidi] What's wrong about that?
All the sciences are being taught in the same way.
Based on the knowledge of engineering, you are building tall skyscrapers.
It is also possible that the errors in your results may come to the light.
Doesn't it happen that on some occasions the bridges fell down
and the buildings collapsed?
Then it was found out that there was a scientific error in it somewhere.
So repeated experience makes human knowledge more perfect.
That is, perfection is created within it.
There are no limits to perfection.
We say that the Taj Mahal is a pinnacle of construction.
There is more to the world than that too and you see man has created that world.
Now you dream of buildings as high as 1 or 2 kilometers.
How does all this happen?
That is, you do this work on such a large scale and put thousands of people
in those high buildings.
You see, it is a matter of life and death.
On what basis does it take place?
When you have to send these shuttles, when you send people to study Mars,
You send them with a confidence that the knowledge that you have gained till now
by the method of induction, be it of maths, science or any other subject,
there are a lot of results in it that can not be challenged now.
Still at times there are mistakes.
So a man lives his life like this.
That is, his knowledge is actually based on the most likely conjecture.
the smallest portion of which you can say that, it is a collection of facts
the rest of the things are mostly inferential.
[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, you spoke of inference.
A rational doubt that arises in determining nature through inference is
that we see in the history of the nations, many among considered
obscenity, nudity and homosexuality as their natural inclinations.
If someone goes into that time and applies this method of induction
to the whole nation then it would seem to him that homosexuality is in man's nature?
[Ghamidi] See, when that thing becomes a knowledge,
it does not become so in a single nation or in single settlement.
t is formed at the level of humanity.
Exceptions are always present.
That exceptions are scrutinized.
It at times turns out that while studying the exception,
you arrive at an opposite conclusion.
You say that this is the rule and that what happened before
is to be seen as an exception.
All this happens in every knowledge.
So we will also study obscenity and nudity.
We will also study the deviations of a nation.
What is true and what is false, I had said that we study rational humans.
We say that man is a rational creature.
I can take you and let you meet some of the patients in a mental asylum.
And you know that many philosophers within post-modernism have made this case that
we should be seen through their eyes.
So these questions will remain and these questions will be answered in the same way
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] It will be told that what is the rule and what is the exception.
It will be said that what are the requirements of nature and what is the deviation.
By studying it from different angles, you state your facts
which are in turn criticised.
This will be the case forever and there is no point worrying about it.
I have told you that in construction of buildings, in surgery, in medicine
the things on which human life depends are also subject to these changes.
Even if it happens tomorrow in determining the meaning of obscenity and nudity,
no hell will break loose.
We will reason and that argumentation will happen in the same way.
That is, the things which are present in human nature, we will probe them.
We will see them in the society while passing through the method of induction.
The basis of your rational inference will also depend only on them.
There is no way for a man to gain knowledge
unless you believe that knowledge also came down from heavens.
This is how knowledge is born in this world.
[Hassan] Right. Ghamid Sahab if I see that a nation is deviated
and they are considering their habits and qualities according to their own nature.
So now when I go to them and tell them to come and talk to me
because they are standing on the wrong nature.
So I will refer to them the nature of my inner self.
And they will say, ''You are one and we are thousands.
Now are you right or we are right?''
[Ghamidi] I will refer to my self when the case is limited to me only.
If that matter has gone through the process of induction in the world
and if it has a whole history to it, then why won't I refer to that?
I will tell what happened in the past.
I will also tell how man has struggled to get here.
I will tell all this to them and there may be a discussion about that.
That is, why should I have a staff that I will hit them in order to attract them?
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] I will reason and they will do the same.
As a result, what survives will be in accordance to human nature.
What will be discussed there will depend on whether the method
that they have adopted is a requirement of nature or is it a deviation.
This is what will happen.
Man deviates because he has the will and authority.
So I have to discuss it with them.
You are taking me to that small settlement
there have been civilizations in the world based on polytheism.
What did the Prophet do to them?
Hit them with a staff?
That is, there is a divine decree that has come and has taken away from people
their ability to think and understand?
Discussions have taken place.
That is, they are arguing for their case.
That is, you are just referring to a small settlement
about which you are not even sure whether the whole settlement was doing it
or it was only their leaders, their elders or even the mischief of some miscreants.
You are not sure about that even.
How big was the settlement?
Of a hundred or fifty thousand people?
You can determine that by the standards of the present world.
But the debate over monotheism and polytheism is going on for centuries.
This is spread across civilizations.
You still have to argue about it with billions of people even today.
So what can you do about it? Just reason!
So knowledge is nothing but reasoning.
And how does reasoning bear results?
Your facts are created out of your senses, be they internal or external
and these are what are challenged.
[Ghamidi] In this, it is clear that the knowledge is first subjective
and then it gets related to the exteriors.
You even challenge the method of induction.
You say that what is being said is basically a result of deviation.
It is in some settlements, some tribes and in some nations.
Humanity as a whole cannot accept it.
[Hassan] You mean, at times the survey turns wrong.
[Ghamidi] Yes, this is how it happens.
And after that, inference is a rational thing.
There is a lot of deductive logic in it and there is no problem in it.
You can very easily define it.
Where did logic originate as a science?
That is, when the intellect emerges and starts the process of inference
from the basic premises.
So the mathematical rules of the process of inference were made
so that it is free of errors.
[Hassan] Right. Right, Right.
[Ghamidi] That is why that knowledge came into being.
In it the mistakes are pointed out and then later discussion starts on them.
This is the case with knowledge.
That is, first remove this misconception from your mind
that when a person first creates knowledge it is free from any errors at the outset.
This is where the discussion starts, will go through these stages
and in the same way reach conclusion.
And that completion is actually the completion in the here and now.
The moment there is criticism on it, we move a step further.
[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, in all these rational objections,
the basic thought that is at work is that when a person creates knowledge.
Lets say, he makes from silica sand an I-pad and after discovering neutron and proton
he invented electricity.
This is the exterior knowledge and had to go through these logical steps.
The knowledge that is within a person should be very carefully disseminated.
And in that he should not do this thing whether he does it in other things or not.
[Ghamidi] See, the thing is that there are many contents of this knowledge.
This is the knowledge inside you that turns into psychology.
This is the knowledge inside you that turns into sociology.
All of these have to pass through these stages.
That is, what is this argument that
the knowledge you have inside must be different than the one outside?
The facts are within you and they will emerge in the same way.
You have headache or any other ache, this is your subjective feeling.
This is your inner feeling.
Obviously, as a result of induction, it is going through different stages.
So there can be a mistake in it too.
There can be disagreement as well.
Disagreements and mistakes will be there in any knowledge,
be that any nafsi (spiritual) discipline or that of any external phenomena.
[Hassan] Right. Ghamidi Sahab let's take the discussion forward.
As a result of this study, you saw the interior, the exterior and did induction.
Centuries have passed and now the question is that in 2020,
if a person wants to know about the Fitrah by examining all the knowledge of the past
then my question is that as a result of all the advancement in knowledge
and the struggle therefore, what has been determined as 'Fitrah'?
That is, what are the facts on which it is based?
What are its limitations and can a person live his life entirely based on it?
What has been decided finally?
[Ghamidi] There are a many things that have been decided.
There are many that are under discussion and will remain so.
That is, it is certain that man is a rational animal.
He has in him the abilities of rational inference.
Induction confirms this.
On this basis we are advancing all our knowledge.
It is certain that there is aesthetic sense in a man.
This is something that cannot be challenged anywhere.
All the arts are being compiled on it.
Your painting, your poetry, your literature are all based on it.
It is clear that these are the sources of acquiring knowledge within a man
that I have just mentioned.
That is, he has an inner sense, he has outer senses.
How have we known all this?
[Hassan] Though this journey.
[Ghamidi] Through our study.
And there are no disagreements in it.
Knowledge emanates from these sources, there is no disagreement on that.
There are some stages later where there are some disagreements.
We also agree on these things.
Take man as a moral being.
That is, he has some values.
They are the universal values, they are all objective values.
The system of this world is based on these values.
I see you with those values, you see me with those values.
A large part of them is where there is no disagreement.
On which we all humans agree.
There is discussion on some of the applied things.
All of this on which we have developed a consensus, is it a small achievement?
And I am saying that you are merely cultivating it,
otherwise it's always been that way.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] In the oldest caves, you might have seen
that whenever a person advances forward, he makes pictorial art.
The study of man's past reveals that his aesthetics have always been present in him
The way he has been given the eyes, in the same way he has been given this sense.
He makes a decision whether this thing is beautiful or ugly
and chooses the beautiful one.
There is a moral existence within him and that moral existence is appearing
in your constitutions.
It is manifesting itself in your personal relationships.
This is the basis on which you have set up the courts.
This is the foundation on which the police institutions work.
The state system is being established on the basis of it.
Based on this, you have prepared the charter of fundamental rights
and made the institution of the United Nations.
So, there is a lot that has been decided
And all of this has been certain for centuries.
[Hassan] Right, Right,Right.
Well, Ghamidi Sahab the next question in it is that
when we say that this knowledge is certain and now we have reached till here,
You had mentioned in the previous episode that there is instinctive knowledge in man.
And when it comes to religion, it is this instinctive knowledge that creates a desire
in man to seek the divine.
What is the meaning of this instinctive knowledge ?
It seems to be a bit difficult to understand.
What is it and on what things is it based upon?
[Ghamidi] My creator has endowed me with a capability
to convert all the thing and ideas that I encounter, into knowledge.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] If you draw a line in front of me and the shape it creates,
I do not look at it like a goat or a donkey.
I call it a Triangle.
[Hassan] Give it a name.
[Ghamidi] Not only have I given it a name
Calling it 'triangle' is how I actually turned it into knowledge.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] So the things that appear in front of me,
be it to my inner self or the external one.
The capability to convert them into knowledge is not lying outside me.
It is not only based on my past experiences.
These are inside of me and this is my instinctive knowledge.
That is, the moment it relates itself with objects outside,
it starts converting those things into knowledge.
What does it mean to be converted into knowledge?
It gives them meaning.
It makes a judgment on them.
It gives them a form.
It starts to determine their connections by employing the God-given capability.
My Fatir, or Khaliq (God's names) gave me this capability.
This is my creativity that is inside me.
And its name is man.
If it is inside me then knowledge is being created and civilizations are emerging.
It is not inside a donkey.
It is not inside a dog.
It is not inside a lion.
It is possible that they may have far greater capabilities than mine,
but as a human being this capability is only found inside of me.
It is the same thing that is being manifested in my knowledge
and in my civilisation.
[Hassan] Right. So, Ghamidi Sahab you say that the creation of a man
has been kept in the light of his Nature.
When we go and see outside, we of course believe in God and his scriptures and see
everything in its light, by comparing the world with revelation.
But we come to know that the beginning of a man has started from Adam (AS).
He was a messenger and Allah Almighty talked to him directly.
So has the humanity began from the conscious capacity of this nature
or has it happened through God's direct scriptures or through some knowledge that
has been given on his behalf?
So we see that first Adam (AS) was born, the concept of Prophethood came
and can there be anything that might have come after that?
[Ghamidi] We are now entering the realm of religion.
So far we have been talking on a purely scientific
and rational basis.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] And in that the thing that I tried to explain was that
in my case it is not like there is somebody from the past about whose history
I am not aware of.
[Hassan] Right]
[Ghamidi] Here children are born even today.
I see all of these potential qualities in them.
These are my experiences and observations of the present time.
I also see how the knowledge of the past becomes my legacy.
So when I ponder over it after stepping away from theology, what am I left with?
I will study the human being present at this time.
The rest of my knowledge is also based on this.
I argue on democracy as a principle that what is its past.
Behind its past is the history of the empires.
Human nature is studied as to what it wants.
What are those hidden demands within it?
The answer to that is some fighters by the use of power and domination,
established their dominance over people.
Otherwise a man wants to do his business with freedom and liberty.
After discussion of all this, there is a mention of past, and present in it.
When you stand in the place of pure knowledge
you cannot give a religious reference.
Now, if you go to the religious references,
then obviously religious texts will come up for discussion.
The basic principle in it and the one that is a point of contention now,
is that, the first human that we talk about
that is, Adam (AS), (and Eve).
Was that first human being blind? didn't he have the capability to see?
Wasn't there any potential present in him?
Were all the things about religion told to him and then they came in his knowledge?
Is it like this?
Was this the case with a human being?
This is a point of view. That is, he wasn't aware about it.
For example, when you analyse the content of the religion.
You will realiize that what are these things
and what are you calling as religion?
For example a consciousness of one's creator.
For example the ability of differentiation between good and evil.
It is as if you are saying that all these things were alien to man.
Do you what you are endorsing?
You are endorsing the people who say that a man is a blank slate.
He was born as a tabula rasa.
He possesses no reason.
He has actually come to some conclusion
by trial and error, pushing and shoving some things.
It is his instincts that have guided him.
The light of intellect did not exist in him the way it exists now.
You know a lot of people narrate this story to you.
[Hassan] Yes.
[Ghamidi] Like, as a result of evolution, polytheism arises in it.
And then from there the oneness of God emerges.
From fear itself many different concepts arise.
If he dreams at night, then the world of Gods and Goddesses is created.
Is it what you are trying to say?
[Hassan] No, this is a problematic thing.
[Ghamidi] Then you should say this.
You should say this in the same way man was born like this.
It was basically the Prophets who came and told them things.
What is the other point of view?
It is that the man came with an abstract knowledge of all the basic religious facts
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] Brief knowledge of the basic facts.
See, knowledge as I said before, becomes an ordered knowledge through centuries.
You can see science, the history of philosophy or other subjects,
the religious facts must be first probed, i.e. what are they?
If you think about it, I have said it many times before
that if you have a look at the content of religion, you see 4 things.
That is, you achieve the knowledge of God or that of the creator.
As a result of this knowledge, you feel a sense of servitude within you.
Like one comes to know of one's mother or father and the feeling of love is created.
This feeling of servitude - how is it expressed?
This is the first thing.
In this, the rituals of worship come into being.
I am talking about the religious content.
The other thing are the etiquette of purification.
That is, religion wants you and your body to be pure.
There are many things of this kind like Wudhu, Ghusul, Janabah, Haiz, Nifas, etc.
What are all these things?
This is in fact the purification of the body
which holds a very basic importance in the content of religion.
These are two things. What is the third thing?
Third thing is the difference between good and bad in one's food.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] That is, some things are forbidden to eat
and many things are permissible.
The rule that has been stated is that
all the things that are pure are permissible.
And all other things that are impure are forbidden.
This is the third thing in the content of religion.
The fourth and the last thing is maroof and munkar.
That is, the consciousness of good and evil.
You say that a certain thing is good and certain thing is bad.
So religion is this at its core. Let's not go to the commands yet.
This lies as the base of religion.
Man already possesses a brief knowledge of all these.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] This is the second premise.
The earlier one was that he is totally unaware of all these things.
If he is unaware of all these things, then where did the other sciences
that create knowledge come from?
[Hassan] Right. He indeed invented the wheel and lit fire.
[Ghamidi] That is he discovered the fire, went out, hunted animals
made weapons, he started making pictures.
Where did the rest come from?
The way that knowledge was present in him,
didn't he have the knowledge for these things?
And if we observe today, does this knowledge come from an external stimulus?
That is, we see in our children that the basic facts that have been put in them,
basically create the room for the further acceptance of knowledge.
The second point of view is that all of this was already present in a human being.
But in a brief abstract form, in a dormant state like that of a seed.
bil-ijmal. It needed to be transformed into detail.
In all other sciences it was believed that the process of converting into details,
even if it took centuries no hell will break loose.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamid] But it was not appropriate in this case
because man has been sent for testing.
He is held accountable. Allah Almighty has sent him here as a trial.
Every human being will close his account and his office
when he leaves the world.
So it became necessary for him to provide him with the details of this brief knowledge
which was given to him through the Messengers.
This is the connection between the revelation
and the knowledge of your nature.
[Ghamidi] And it is rational as well.
This is what knowledge and intellect demand.
The evidence of this is found in other sciences.
That is, what happens in the rest of the sciences?
In rest of the sciences, whatever there is inside of you
of which you have got a potential ...
it manifests itself gradually.
It slowly connects to the facts.
In it even the process of induction takes years and centuries.
In it many discussions take place about the quality of the rational inference.
And then somehow after investigating it, you establish it as a science.
If you today go and open the library, you see the books on politics, psychology
sociology and many other subjects.
How did all this come into being?
You see, it has reached to this result after centuries.
And we discuss it today.
See the knowledge of the sciences.
The wheel has been invented long ago.
Fire too was discovered a long time ago
but the world that we see around us today is of last 2 centuries.
How much time did this all take to be invented.
That is, though how many stages of evolution did man go through.
Could this also be true of religious realities?
[Hassan] No.
That is, it would have happened that this knowledge would have been
organized for centuries and the people who did it would be held accountable.
[Hassan] That is, after the end of the prophecy accountability would've started.
[Ghamidi] Because of this Allah Almighty made this decision, or
I wont talk about the decision yet but what should have been in terms of man
should be that the beginning itself should have been with the Prophethood.
[Ghamidi] I am still having a rational argument.
[Hassan] Right
The beginning was to be made from here too.
If this knowledge. Takleef
Takleef is a Shar'i term.
Takleef means the knowledge which would have made man accountable.
If there was to be accountability for that.
If there is to be a apocalypse as a result of this and if there is a judgement
of man's eternal blessing and doom, then it cannot be postponed.
[Ghamidi] So the situation was not that the man was lost
or he did not know the way.
Man had brought all these things in his nature.
For them to manifest there could have been a waiting period of centuries.
So Allah Almighty gave the first man who was given consciousness,
Men before this were being born with their material existence
as far their bodies are concerned.
But the first man whom Allah Almighty gave consciousness was Adam (AS).
You call him with the name Adam, you can as well assign some other name.
Because we didn't yet enter the world of theology.
So this is what should have happened in his case,
this is what intellect requires and this is what knowledge demands.
That is, like the basics of other sciences are present within a human being
which as a result of gradual evolution accumulate their legacy
and become sciences should have been made a science on the very beginning.
[Ghamidi] And this is what from the very beginning
which required prophecy.
So He himself was made the Prophet.
That is, they didn't even wait for another Prophet to come to Him.
[Hassan] He was himself made the messenger
[Ghamidi] Therefore, whatever potential was present in them
and all the details that were needed
was provided to them at that very moment.
This is what the intellect wants to happen
Now enter the study of religion and after that ask the religious text itself
as to what happened.
Read Bible, read Quran, read Vedas, they will narrate to you the same story.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] Insist on it. The Holy Quran says the same thing.
That is, we kept Adam and Eve in a garden
Why did we keep them there?
So that their fitrah manifests itself. That happened.
[Hassan] That happened in the form of nudity.
[Ghamidi] It happened in 10 other forms.
That's a matter of a long inquiry. That happened.
When it happened and after happening, Allah Almighty forgave them.
That is, they turned to God and repented.
See what happened there.
An urge for repentance and return arose.
What are the words in which my Lord becomes pleased with me.
It was said that "We inspired those in him."
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] And then there was the selection process.
And as a result of this selection, he was made a Prophet.
This is what the Holy Quran states.
Take any text from the Quran where the story of Adam and Satan is told.
or of Adam and Eve, the events of the beginning of the world have been narrated.
This is what is said.
On this occasion He was told that now My guidance will come
on the occasions of the need.
The present need was fulfilled.
It will come in future as well.
And then it is a separate discussion as to when that need arose
and when did the process of prophecy began.
We are not talking about that yet.
[Hassan] Right. Since we are now entering the religious discussion
from an intellectual one.
And that if the Fitrah was already there then what was the need of prophecy?
Ok if someone might say that Adam (AS) had met Allah Almighty,
and the consciousness that you are talking about was his practical experience.
He has come to this world with that practical experience
It wasn't as if he inferred that as a creation, there should be a creator.
[Ghamidi] Now that we have come to religious texts.
The Quran is itself stating the same thing.
If you go to the Surah-Al-Araaf.
It is stating that Adam (AS) had to yet come into existence
when the same thing happened to his children, his future generations
that were to come after centuries.
[Hassan] Right
[Ghamidi] That is, they had not come to this world yet, as bodies.
Their personality, the real personality not just of them but
"Iz akhaza Rabuka Min Banii-Aadama Min Zuhurihim"
When you discuss this verse, then I will you that
the Quran is telling a story much before that.
[Hassan] Right
[Ghamidi] So if you have to argue from the religious texts
then the situation is different altogether.
Let's look at one thing at a time.
[Hassan] Ok, Ghamidi Sahab, now we will come to the full details as to
where Quran makes Fitrah as a point of reference and what it says.
The first question about man is that
When Adam (AS) was sent by Allah Almighty, after that he committed a mistake.
A man who has brought into the world a consciousness of good and bad,
He knows about good and evil.
There is no external influence, no effect of knowledge and no imagination
and it is there that they deviated.
So why didn't Allah Almighty say that
'Adam, I had just created you with this fresh fitrah and you violated it?'
Instead, Allah Almighty said that 'I had forbidden you from this'
It is as if the word of Allah Almighty became a ruling for Adam (AS)
and not some reference of man's natural consciousness.
[Ghamidi] See, this is the reference of that ordeal
to which they were subjected.
What connection does it have with nature?
[Hassan] That is, the act of obscenity took place.
[Ghamidi] From where did this obscenity and virtue come into discussion?
That is, Adam and Eve have been kept together at a place by Allah Almighty.
They have been kept there as conscious human beings.
To tell these conscious human beings as to what values are hidden in them.
How will their nature manifest itself.
For that they were subjected to an ordeal.
They were kept in a garden; there they were given permission about everything.
But the restrictions were imposed on their personal relationships.
They are husband and wife and where does the question of obscenity come from?
[Hassan] Oh! Right.
[Ghamidi] That is they are husband and wife and have been created like that.
They had a right to get intimate.
It is a legitimate practice in our religion.
But there was restriction imposed on this.
Now when the restrictions were imposed then there are some instincts present
inside a human being.
This is not a sin itself.
The restrictions were imposed in the same way between a husband and wife
as is done during the month of Ramadan.
It is imposed with the command of Allah Almighty, right?
This is meant as a trial.
That is, the instincts that are present in human nature,
because with it a man has been given a will and authority,
then at times Allah Almighty imposes a restriction on some natural instinct.
So this restriction was imposed on them.
When the restrictions were imposed on them what happened after that?
Now what happened is that the desire within them
that we have now come to existence,
See how the human nature manifests itself.
That we should now get eternity.
If you study the human nature. You had asked this question that
what nature exactly is.
One aspect of that nature is that every single human beings seeks eternity.
He has in his nature a want for this.
He never wants to die.
Now what happened is that the Satan who had now turned into their enemy,
came and started coaxing them, swearing oaths!
The Quran states this and he told them that I am your well-wisher.
The thing that you have been forbidden is actually an obstacle
in the way of attaining eternity.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] He told them that if you do this thing you will live forever.
And this thing was not entirely incorrect.
We are, in fact, alive for centuries in the quest to this eternity.
That is, if we look at a man as man and Adam qua Adam, it is like that.
So what did Satan say, it has been told in Surah Taha that he came and swore
that you eat the fruit of this tree.
This tree has exactly the same meaning as you say Shajr-e-Nasab.
That is, it is the tree from which generations are to sprout.
So you eat its fruit and as a result you will become eternal like the angels.
The word 'angel' that has been used does not suggest that you will become angels
but you will create the qualities in your present existence like that of angels.
So as a result you will gain eternity and will live forever.
Now it is clear that in this way man violates the command of Allah.
The Fitrah demanded that they consummate.
[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] It is just that Allah had stopped them from doing this and they did.
This was the first incident.
You can still see that when a person goes through this process for the first time
or for the first time this feeling and consciousness affects him
then the same situation arises.
When it happens and when the desire subsides the guilt take over a man.
And in the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty hasn't spoken yet.
You can see at different places in the Holy Quran.
That is, you were put to a test and that sense of guilt just arose in you
because that was already present inside of you.
[Hassan] People say that since Adam (AS) was a Prophet, Allah might have sent
a revelation and created that sense of guilt in him?
[Ghamidi] He has not got the revelation yet.
He will get it after he makes a repentance.
Right now, as human beings they are being told what nature they have brought
and how it manifested
The same nature has manifested itself.
The first manifestation was in the process of intercourse,
then what is the instinct behind it - a huge blessing.
That is, I will get the eternity and will be immortal.
I will live like angels forever.
This all is the manifestation of a man's nature.
And what happened after this?
That is, he is aware of these organs now.
They are used for defecation purposes.
In our part of the world when kids used to play till the ages of 5 to 10 years,
they don't have the consciousness of this thing.
But the moment the instinct of sex arises, the urge for hiding them arises.
The same happened.
The Quran says that the moment it happened,
and you see that is it just ability?
so, in that case, the moment this sense or awareness was created,
a voice should have come that hide yourself with the leaves.
No, they decided for themselves that
Tafiqa Yaksifaani alaihi Mim warakil Jannah.
So what happened now,
It wasn't just ability.
Full consciousness was created which was followed with actions.
You convert it into knowledge now.
That is, they have brought with them a sense of modesty,
this sense of humility is associated with sexual activity.
The moment this humility arises in a human being,
a need to hide his private parts is created.
This is the reality of modesty in this case.
And after that what a human does is he looks in his vicinity.
Now we have high quality clothing available to us.
So at that time whatever was available, be it the leaves of the trees,
they hid themselves with them.
So the thing that they did and only after it,
they were admonished that you have disobeyed by command.
They repented for that and then finally got the Prophethood.
[Hassan] Right. Ghamidi Sahab the question that whether Fitrah precedes Prophethood
you discussed it with great detail.
Our program ends here but I would like it in the next episode Inshallah
that we understand it in order from you that the rational concept that a man
desires and admits that there is nature.
The initial human beings and their characteristics tell us
that there is a consciousness present in them.
The religious text and its basic sources, how do they explain it?
Is it just a rational inference or Allah Almighty has made it clear in his words
that the base of religion depends on Nature.
It is the knowledge of human nature on which accountability will be done.
I would like to know these things from you in great detail in the next episode.
And then all the counter arguments that people ask on this
we will put them in front of you.
Thank You so much for your time Ghamidi Sahab.
Our episode ends here.
Akoolu Kawli Haaza Wastagfirullaha lii Walakum Walisaairil Muslimeen.