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Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.44,0:00:10.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.30,0:00:12.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's start. Be welcome!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:12.68,0:00:16.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,More than two years ago, Edward Snowden's\Nfiles have become public.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.88,0:00:18.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They went public
Dialogue: 0,0:00:18.41,0:00:20.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the media went crazy.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.91,0:00:23.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the public maybe not so much,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:23.16,0:00:26.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you may have noticed amongst your friends\Nand family,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.25,0:00:28.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well I did.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:28.00,0:00:34.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A lot remains the same after Snowden's revelations,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.53,0:00:38.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if people are concerned about surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.04,0:00:44.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The following talk by Arne Hintz and Lina\NDencik from University of Cardiff explores
Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.78,0:00:46.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just that.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.02,0:00:54.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They analyzed how actually the media reacted\Nto the relations made by Edward Snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.74,0:00:56.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they also looked at how the public,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.55,0:01:03.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such as journalists and other people and activists,\Nreacted to Edward Snowden's disclosures.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:03.10,0:01:09.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So please give a warm round of applause to\NArne Hintz and Lina Dencik. Thank you!
Dialogue: 0,0:01:09.52,0:01:17.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:01:17.79,0:01:21.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Arne: Thank you very much, there are still\Na few free seats over there.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.91,0:01:25.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hello everybody, my name is Arne Hintz, this\Nis Lina Denzik.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:25.29,0:01:31.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are both from Cardiff University, from\Nthe school of journalism, media and cultural studies,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:31.62,0:01:34.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so not from the tech department.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.38,0:01:38.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We want to talk about some of the results\Nof a research project
Dialogue: 0,0:01:38.96,0:01:42.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we've been working on this year and for the past...
Dialogue: 0,0:01:42.40,0:01:45.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a bit more than a year
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.47,0:01:50.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's called "Digital Citizenship and Surveillance\NSociety: UK State-Media-Citizen Relations
Dialogue: 0,0:01:50.30,0:01:51.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,after the Snowden Leaks",
Dialogue: 0,0:01:51.80,0:01:56.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's about the implications of the Snowden\Nleaks in four areas:
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.98,0:02:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,News media, civil society, policy and technology
Dialogue: 0,0:02:01.44,0:02:05.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and here what we want to do is present just\Na few findings from that project
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.43,0:02:11.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and focus on two areas, the news media part\Nand the civil society part.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:11.23,0:02:16.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's all focused on the UK, the country where\NCardiff University is located
Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.78,0:02:22.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so there won't be a lot of international comparisons,\Nnot a lot about Germany and so on,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.51,0:02:29.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I think maybe at the end we can maybe\Ndraw some comparisons ourselves here in this room.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.73,0:02:38.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this has been the project basically, the\Ntitle as you see it over there.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.89,0:02:43.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The news media part has basically asked how\Nthe british media represented the Snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:02:43.19,0:02:45.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,leaks and digital surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.19,0:02:51.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The society part is about questions such as:\NWhat is the nature of public knowledge with
Dialogue: 0,0:02:51.40,0:02:52.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regards to digital surveillance?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.74,0:02:56.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are everyday communication practices changing?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:56.13,0:03:01.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how are activists affected by the revelations\Nof mass surveillance?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:01.04,0:03:04.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The policies part is still ongoing, it's still\Nbeing developed
Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.56,0:03:08.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's about the current policy and regulatory\Nframework of digital surveillance
Dialogue: 0,0:03:08.70,0:03:12.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and reform proposals and current reforms that\Nare taking place.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:12.89,0:03:17.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the technology part is about the technological\Ninfrastructure of surveillance
Dialogue: 0,0:03:17.60,0:03:22.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and techonological possibilities of counter-surveillance\Nand resistance.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:22.15,0:03:27.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then we want to bring all this together\Nand ask: How does that re-define what we may
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.97,0:03:30.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,understand as digital citizenship?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:30.61,0:03:34.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The research team includes a number of people\Nfrom Cardiff University
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.08,0:03:40.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,including us, including other lecturers, professors,\Nstaff members of Cardiff University
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.26,0:03:44.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a few research assistants and research\Nassociates that we employed for this,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:44.75,0:03:53.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,plus a couple of guys from Oxford and one\Nfrom Briar from a tech development project.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.76,0:03:59.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We also have an advisory board with some colleagues\Nfrom academia
Dialogue: 0,0:03:59.10,0:04:03.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also representatives of digital rights\Norganisations, such as Open Rights Group,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:03.97,0:04:05.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Privacy International and others.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.69,0:04:11.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have a project website, where you can learn\Nmore about the project, about the background
Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.77,0:04:13.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also some preliminary findings.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:13.92,0:04:20.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We also had a conference earlier this year,\Nin June, maybe some of you were there.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:20.22,0:04:25.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was in Cardiff with some interesting speakers\Nto the conference
Dialogue: 0,0:04:25.15,0:04:29.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also combined the academic and the practical\Npart a little bit.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.81,0:04:34.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So. A few glimpses of the results in these\Ntwo areas that I mentioned.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:34.96,0:04:42.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So for the media research part we were interested\Nin studying how the British news media have
Dialogue: 0,0:04:42.08,0:04:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,represented the Snowden leaks and also digital\Nsurveillance more broadly.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.64,0:04:54.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we asked: How are debates over surveillance\Nconstructed? What are the angles and opinions?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:54.63,0:04:57.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What are usual sources? And so on.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:57.04,0:05:02.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We need to start on an anecdotal basis.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:02.46,0:05:07.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some examples of media coverage that emerged\Nvery quickly after the Snowden revelations,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:07.84,0:05:12.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again in the UK press, which show different\Ntypes of the coverage.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:12.63,0:05:17.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we probably all know that the Guardian\Nwas very instrumental in the revelations
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.82,0:05:25.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and provided a lot of information, really\Ntook this role of the fourth estate and of
Dialogue: 0,0:05:25.03,0:05:27.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,investigative journalism quite seriously.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:27.17,0:05:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the other hand, other newspapers like this\None were very critical about the Snowden revelations
Dialogue: 0,0:05:34.00,0:05:38.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also about the Guardian for informing\Npeople about these and running with these revelations.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:40.17,0:05:44.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then there were others like this one,\Nthat was a famous example.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:44.64,0:05:52.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The former editor of the Independent, actually\Nanother liberal, middle ground, not really
Dialogue: 0,0:05:52.30,0:05:56.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,left but at least not ultra conservative newspaper.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:56.35,0:06:00.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Who says "Edward Snowden's secrets may be\Ndangerous, I would not have published them".
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.43,0:06:06.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, can debate that, but then he says "if\NMI5 warns that this is not in the public interest,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:06.18,0:06:08.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who am I to disbelieve them?".
Dialogue: 0,0:06:08.65,0:06:10.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughing{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.60,0:06:12.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's an interesting understanding of journalism
Dialogue: 0,0:06:12.55,0:06:16.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it was later retracted, it was debated\Nquite a lot.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:16.81,0:06:28.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we see that also this caution towards\Npublishing something like this has been quite
Dialogue: 0,0:06:28.15,0:06:28.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wide-spread.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:28.95,0:06:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what did we do?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.27,0:06:38.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here's a timeline of Snowden and surveillance\Nrelated coverage in the press in this case
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.31,0:06:39.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the UK.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.54,0:06:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we looked at five case studies, five moments\Nof coverage.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.24,0:06:47.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first were the initial revelations of\NSnowden.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:47.54,0:06:53.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The second the interception of communications\Nin foreign embassies and European Union offices
Dialogue: 0,0:06:53.14,0:06:58.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and spying on world leaders' phone communications,\Nsuch as Angela Merkel's for example.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.43,0:07:02.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The third was the detention of Glenn Greenwald's\Npartner David Miranda at Heathrow Airport
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.62,0:07:04.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under anti-terror legislation.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:04.60,0:07:11.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which raised debates around freedom of the\Npress and national security.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:11.03,0:07:15.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then we looked at the parliamentary report\Ninto the death of Lee Rigby.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.31,0:07:20.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which was a case that was described as a terrorist\Nattack on a British soldier on the streets
Dialogue: 0,0:07:20.81,0:07:22.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of London.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:22.50,0:07:28.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it led to debates around social media\Ncompanies' role in tackling terrorism.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:28.15,0:07:30.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then finally the Charlie Hebdo attacks\Nin Paris,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:30.37,0:07:35.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which prompted debates around digital encryption,\Nfreedom of speech and the resurrection of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:35.27,0:07:40.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the so-called Snooper's Charter in the UK,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.18,0:07:45.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legislation around surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.08,0:07:49.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So a few results:
Dialogue: 0,0:07:49.62,0:07:54.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Snowden was clearly prominent in the media\Ncoverage, and generally was covered using
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.54,0:07:56.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mostly neutral or even positive language,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:56.93,0:08:00.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,described as a whistleblower as we see\Nhere at the bottom.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:00.73,0:08:04.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if we look at the focus on issues around\Nsurveillance taken in the stories
Dialogue: 0,0:08:04.92,0:08:13.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and so at the context of coverage of surveillance,\Nthe most important one here has to do
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.36,0:08:18.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as we can see there, probably it's a little\Nbit small to read.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:18.02,0:08:22.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the most important has to do \Nwith themes of terrorism,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:22.48,0:08:27.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with themes of the role of security agencies\Nand government response.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.26,0:08:30.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's been very much the context of discussing in
Dialogue: 0,0:08:30.55,0:08:33.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most media coverage of discussing\Nthe context of discussing Snowden revelations
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.71,0:08:35.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and surveillance more broadly.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.21,0:08:40.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that is in stark contrast to discussing\Nsurveillance in terms of human rights, personal
Dialogue: 0,0:08:40.58,0:08:43.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,privacy and freedom of the press.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:43.05,0:08:49.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In other words: rights and digital... and citizen-based perspectives on surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.92,0:08:55.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If we look at who was used as the sources\Nin these stories, we see a pattern that is
Dialogue: 0,0:08:55.04,0:08:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually quite typical in media sourcing generally.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.80,0:09:02.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Politicians are by far the most prominent\Nsource.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.52,0:09:05.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that is not unusual at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:05.81,0:09:12.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in this case it means that elite concerns\Naround surveillance are most prominent, not
Dialogue: 0,0:09:12.00,0:09:13.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,citizen concerns.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.54,0:09:19.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Political sources are framing the debate and\Nhow it is interpreted.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:19.29,0:09:25.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so unsurprisingly then the oppinions raised\Nby these sources are for example, as we see
Dialogue: 0,0:09:25.65,0:09:28.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there, that surveillance should be increased
Dialogue: 0,0:09:28.99,0:09:33.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or at least is necessary, at least has to\Nbe maintained.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.95,0:09:38.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That the Snowden leaks have compromised the\Nwork of intelligence services
Dialogue: 0,0:09:38.29,0:09:42.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that social media companies should do\Nmore to fight terror and to increase their
Dialogue: 0,0:09:42.87,0:09:44.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,own surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.47,0:09:48.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so this dominant framework understands\Nsurveillance as a valuable activity,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.84,0:09:55.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and one for which both intelligence services\Nand business actors have a responsibility.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.38,0:09:59.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Rather than it being primarily problematic\Nfor citizens.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.83,0:10:05.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And where it is presented as problematic,\Nin the snooping on world leaders case study,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.29,0:10:10.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance was seen as damaging to international\Nrelations and therefore problematic.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.21,0:10:15.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's something that is primarily of\Nrelevance to big players rather than ordinary
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.40,0:10:16.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,citizens.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:16.17,0:10:20.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So from these short glimpses, what we can\Nsee, just a few preliminary conclusions,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:20.71,0:10:27.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that yes, there was extensive and often\Npositive reporting on Snowden himself, in
Dialogue: 0,0:10:27.09,0:10:28.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some media at least.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.36,0:10:32.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But debates around surveillance are framed\Nby elites, rather than citizens
Dialogue: 0,0:10:32.97,0:10:38.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this elite-centered structure of news\Ncoverage means that the consequences and the
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.61,0:10:42.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,extent particularly of mass surveillance of\Ncitizens
Dialogue: 0,0:10:42.60,0:10:44.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are largely invisible in media coverage.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.61,0:10:48.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a strong framing on national security\Nand so on,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:48.45,0:10:53.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there is quite insufficient information\Non the practices and implications of surveillance
Dialogue: 0,0:10:53.64,0:10:55.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for normal citizens.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.98,0:11:01.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so the issues of mass surveillance that\Nwere actually so central in Snowden's revelations,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:01.40,0:11:04.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,remain relatively invisible in these debates,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:04.15,0:11:09.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,apart from perhaps the Guardian coverage.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:09.05,0:11:16.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we could say that media justify and\Nnormalize current surveillance practices,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:16.26,0:11:23.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that discussions about individual rights\Nand human security are structurally discouraged.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:23.22,0:11:24.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is the media part
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.67,0:11:29.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lina: so i'll just go briefly through some\Nof our key findings for what we call the civil
Dialogue: 0,0:11:29.62,0:11:31.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society work stream on this.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:31.45,0:11:36.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which looks at two aspects, so there is the\Npublic knowledge and attitudes on the Snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:11:36.91,0:11:38.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,leaks and digital surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:38.45,0:11:42.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then there's the second part which is\Nparticularly to do with responses amongst
Dialogue: 0,0:11:42.35,0:11:43.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political activists.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.90,0:11:48.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And for the first part, the public opinion\Nresearch, we did a number of focus groups across
Dialogue: 0,0:11:48.72,0:11:49.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different demographics in the UK,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:49.90,0:11:53.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in order to get us a diverse range of \Nopinions and views.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:53.34,0:11:59.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that ranges from sort of high income people\Nworking the financial centre to local young
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.18,0:12:03.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Muslim groups within Cardiff itself.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:03.12,0:12:05.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So a different range and different groups\Nof people.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:05.96,0:12:11.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then for the research on the activist\Nresponses we did a number of interviews with
Dialogue: 0,0:12:11.59,0:12:13.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different groups and organisations,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.55,0:12:16.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from large NGOs to smaller community groups.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:16.42,0:12:21.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ranging from environmental groups, labour\Nactivists anti-war activists like "Stop the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:21.10,0:12:21.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,War",
Dialogue: 0,0:12:21.45,0:12:24.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,economic justice groups like "Global Justice\NNow", and community
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.99,0:12:30.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and civil liberty groups such as also "CAGE",\Nwho spoke earlier today.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:30.42,0:12:31.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And talked with them.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:31.72,0:12:36.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there's particularly groups that weren't\Ndigital rights activists or tech activists
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.39,0:12:36.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,specifically,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.87,0:12:41.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to try and get an understanding of how other\Npolitical activists view this issue in particular
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.65,0:12:42.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in response to the Snowden leaks.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:42.86,0:12:48.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So with the first bit on public opinion in\Nour focus groups we had a range of themes.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:48.93,0:12:51.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Understanding and experiences of surveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.80,0:12:54.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knowledge and opinions on Snowden leaks,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:54.51,0:12:56.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,concerns with privacy and personal data,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:56.54,0:12:58.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions around online behaviour and practices
Dialogue: 0,0:12:58.92,0:13:02.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and attitudes towards intelligence services.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.47,0:13:06.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So just a couple of key points from these\Nfocus groups:
Dialogue: 0,0:13:06.70,0:13:11.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First of all there was particularly low knowledge\Nof who Edward Snowden was,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:11.35,0:13:15.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and even less knowledge of what the content\Nof the leaks were.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:15.94,0:13:21.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there was a lot of confusion in discussions\Nwith Julian Assange, Chelsea Manning and Wikileaks
Dialogue: 0,0:13:21.45,0:13:21.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:21.75,0:13:24.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of how people had come about this\Nstory.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:24.16,0:13:30.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there were a lot of mix-up between those\Ndifferent stories.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:30.35,0:13:36.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In terms of actually understandings of surveillance\Nall of this state surveillance isn't really
Dialogue: 0,0:13:36.32,0:13:38.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,isolated in how people speak about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:38.57,0:13:43.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It overlaps also with questions of corporate\Nsurveillance and also peer surveillance or
Dialogue: 0,0:13:43.15,0:13:44.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,employer surveillance and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:44.67,0:13:49.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So a lot of concerns are not necessarily about\Nstate surveillance per se and it's difficult
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.03,0:13:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to isolate this as a particular issue.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:52.35,0:13:57.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also when it comes to what constitutes\Nsurveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:57.14,0:14:01.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the initial responses would be things like\NCCTV and sort of these types of things were
Dialogue: 0,0:14:01.54,0:14:04.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seen as more kind of real forms of surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:04.69,0:14:08.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But on the other hand it was very clear that\Npeople felt that the collection of data
Dialogue: 0,0:14:08.86,0:14:12.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also including the collection of meta\Ndata, so distinguishing also from it being
Dialogue: 0,0:14:12.41,0:14:15.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not about content, constitutes surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:15.09,0:14:21.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that was generally how people felt about\Nwhat surveillance actually means.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:21.07,0:14:27.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In terms then of concerns around this, people's\Nworries about state surveillance in particular
Dialogue: 0,0:14:27.48,0:14:30.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but dominantly concerns lack of transparency\Naround it.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:30.40,0:14:36.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So a lack of transparency around what is being\Ncollected, but also how it's being used and
Dialogue: 0,0:14:36.34,0:14:37.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what it's being used for,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:37.19,0:14:42.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also what the regulatory framework is\Nthat's in place surrounding it.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:42.72,0:14:46.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also concerns over the lack of knowledge\Nor understanding of how to actually opt out,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:46.66,0:14:50.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or resist or circumvent collection of data.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:50.97,0:14:55.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in terms of sort of changes in online\Nbehaviour then,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:55.21,0:14:58.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these concerns do manifest themselves in some\Nchanges, but it's mainly in terms of sort
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.43,0:15:00.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of self-regulating behaviour,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.28,0:15:03.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not saying things that are too controversial\Nonline and so forth,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.76,0:15:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than actually changes in using different\Ntools or different communication platforms,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.88,0:15:13.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which wasn't prominent at all in our focus\Ngroups.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:13.86,0:15:17.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what we also saw as sort of implications\Nof this is that there was sort of an internalising
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.59,0:15:18.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of some of these justifications
Dialogue: 0,0:15:18.97,0:15:22.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that have been very prominent also in the\Nmedia, particularly this phrase: "nothing
Dialogue: 0,0:15:22.54,0:15:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to hide, nothing to fear".
Dialogue: 0,0:15:24.88,0:15:31.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Although in this case there was clear \Ndifferences between the different demographic
Dialogue: 0,0:15:31.34,0:15:32.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,groups that we spoke with.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:32.70,0:15:35.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Meaning that some people were more comfortable\Nsaying this phrase "nothing to hide, nothing
Dialogue: 0,0:15:35.67,0:15:36.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to fear",
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.77,0:15:40.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whereas for example when we spoke to local\NMuslim groups they problematised this position
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.91,0:15:41.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much more.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:41.48,0:15:44.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there is definitely variation here in terms\Nof that,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:44.59,0:15:48.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there is a sense in which some of\Nthese justifications have been internalized.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:48.97,0:15:52.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And actually what we've seen is what we phrase\Nthis as a kind of surveillance realism,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:52.52,0:15:56.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that surveillance has become normalized\Nto such an extent,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.76,0:16:01.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is difficult for people to really understand\Nor imagine a society in which surveillance
Dialogue: 0,0:16:01.00,0:16:03.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn't take place.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:03.24,0:16:08.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which might also relate to some of these questions\Naround a lack of understanding of how to actually
Dialogue: 0,0:16:08.17,0:16:10.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,resist this or opt out from this.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:10.95,0:16:16.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So i think a key point that we wanted to make\Nwith our research with these focus groups,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:16.28,0:16:16.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is
Dialogue: 0,0:16:16.54,0:16:20.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we need to re-distinguish here between\Npublic consent versus public resignation, when
Dialogue: 0,0:16:20.91,0:16:23.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we talk about attitudes towards surveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.26,0:16:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,meaning that it isn't necessary that people\Nconsent to this going on
Dialogue: 0,0:16:26.46,0:16:31.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but actually have resigned to the fact that\Nthis is how society is being organised.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:31.80,0:16:35.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To then move on to interviews with activists.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:35.87,0:16:38.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We also had similar questions here,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:38.11,0:16:40.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so understanding and experiences of surveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.17,0:16:44.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and knowledge and opinions of Snowden leaks\Nand attitudes towards state surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:44.18,0:16:48.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then we also wanted to explore this question\Naround current online behaviour and practices
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.93,0:16:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and whether there had been any changes and\Nresponses to the Snowden leaks.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.60,0:16:57.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And again just some key findings here on these\Nquestions:
Dialogue: 0,0:16:57.82,0:17:03.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So basically the activists that we spoke with\Nwere generally very aware of surveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:03.50,0:17:07.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but again it was visible and physical forms\Nof surveillance that were more prominent in
Dialogue: 0,0:17:07.59,0:17:09.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how activists spoke about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:09.42,0:17:14.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is particularly and perhaps particularly\Nin the UK a context,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:14.21,0:17:18.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there is a very troublesome history\Nin the UK with police infiltration into activist
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.62,0:17:18.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,groups,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.87,0:17:22.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which has really impacted the activist scene\Nquite a lot within the UK.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:22.85,0:17:26.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And often this was how the activists we spoke\Nwith would talk about surveillance first and
Dialogue: 0,0:17:26.99,0:17:27.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,foremost,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:27.80,0:17:33.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than about these more virtual forms\Nand visible forms of surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:33.85,0:17:39.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And also perhaps linked to that then despite\Nthis general awareness and wide-spread experiences
Dialogue: 0,0:17:39.66,0:17:40.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of surveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:40.60,0:17:44.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the activists we spoke with didn't know a\Ngreat deal of detail about the Snowden leaks
Dialogue: 0,0:17:44.62,0:17:45.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:45.52,0:17:50.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And again there was this confusion with Chelsea\NManning and Wikileaks.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:50.65,0:17:56.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And importantly also there was a sort of general\Nexpectation some of these quotes sort of highlight
Dialogue: 0,0:17:56.25,0:17:57.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:57.05,0:18:02.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that state surveillance goes on, this is sort\Nof expected.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:02.37,0:18:05.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's confirmed for activists when police\Nare often there,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.21,0:18:07.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when they've organized events or protests\Nand demonstrations,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.96,0:18:10.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or when activities have been intercepted.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:10.90,0:18:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so the Snowden leaks in themselves and\Nthe realities of mass surveillance
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.76,0:18:19.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,came as little surprise to the political activists\Nin the UK.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:19.17,0:18:24.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And perhaps also therefore or one other reason\Nthere hasn't been much response from the groups
Dialogue: 0,0:18:24.06,0:18:24.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we spoke with anyway,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:24.90,0:18:27.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of changing online behaviour.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:27.15,0:18:30.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Particularly not directly because of Snowden.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:30.55,0:18:31.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are some exceptions here,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:31.50,0:18:34.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so for example Greenpeace did really change\Ntheir communication behaviour
Dialogue: 0,0:18:34.90,0:18:37.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a direct response to the Snowden leaks.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:37.03,0:18:41.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And CAGE i think as we heard earlier had recently\Nalso changed communication practices,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:41.02,0:18:43.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,although at the time of our interview with\Nthem
Dialogue: 0,0:18:43.02,0:18:47.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they hadn't done as much as they're doing\Nnow.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.44,0:18:50.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Predominantly however there has been very\Nlittle change in online behaviour,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.68,0:18:55.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and where it has taken place it's been part\Nof a sort of longer term consciousness of
Dialogue: 0,0:18:55.68,0:18:57.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:57.22,0:19:02.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the kind of changes we have seen more\Nare things like face to face interaction.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:02.35,0:19:08.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So more face to face interaction, perhaps\Nslightly more careful online communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:08.93,0:19:12.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in terms of encryption:
Dialogue: 0,0:19:12.30,0:19:18.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We found little use of encryption again although\Nwith exceptions with some of the groups,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:18.92,0:19:22.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but partly this was due to questions of convenience,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:22.14,0:19:24.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a perceived lack of technical ability.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.46,0:19:28.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which I think are arguments that we're quite\Nfamiliar with, when it comes to questions around
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.40,0:19:28.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.83,0:19:33.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it was also related to a particular kind\Nof rationale thas was expressed in some of
Dialogue: 0,0:19:33.05,0:19:34.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the interviews that we did,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.50,0:19:40.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that somehow using encrypted software is about\Nbeing hidden or closed in some ways,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:40.86,0:19:45.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whereas activists strive for open and transparent\Norganisations.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:45.63,0:19:51.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that somehow contradicts this aim to be\Ntransparent and open and inclusive.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:51.13,0:19:57.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That somehow it also excludes people to start\Nto use encrypted communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:57.16,0:20:00.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And linked to that also many of the activists\Nwe spoke with expressed the notion
Dialogue: 0,0:20:00.33,0:20:05.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that their activities and their role in society\Ndidn't constitute a need to really worry about
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.87,0:20:07.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:07.05,0:20:10.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So despite being aware of surveillance and\Nexpecting it to go on,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.76,0:20:13.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was a sense in which some of the organisations\Nhere
Dialogue: 0,0:20:13.45,0:20:15.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perceived themselves as fairly mainstream,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:15.57,0:20:17.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore kind of safe.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:17.12,0:20:19.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And didn't really need to worry about surveillance.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:19.99,0:20:23.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And really that surveillance would only really\Nneed to be something to worry about,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:23.30,0:20:29.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they moved into more radical forms of politics\Nand action,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:29.30,0:20:31.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whatever that might be.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:31.60,0:20:35.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So in some ways we might think of this as\Nkind of it acts to somewhat keep the mainstream
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.54,0:20:35.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in check,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:35.95,0:20:40.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in that there would only surveillance becomes\Na variable only if you do certain kinds of
Dialogue: 0,0:20:40.07,0:20:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actions.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:42.37,0:20:46.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So and therefore also there wasn't really\Nin terms of sort of questions around digital
Dialogue: 0,0:20:46.51,0:20:49.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rights and advocacy work around policies,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.18,0:20:52.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and policy around privacy and so forth,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:52.65,0:20:56.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wasn't something that the activists we spoke\Nwith, most of them anyway,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:56.95,0:21:01.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,didn't see that as something that directly\Nfeatured on their agenda.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:01.47,0:21:04.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it wasn't really something that they were\Nso concerned with themselves,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.69,0:21:09.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but rather that type of activism is kind of\Noutsourced to other groups like digital rights
Dialogue: 0,0:21:09.71,0:21:11.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,activists or tech activists.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:11.48,0:21:15.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That that's what they do, we are doing something\Nelse.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:15.66,0:21:19.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think what we sort of want to suggest\Nwith that is that our research seems anyway
Dialogue: 0,0:21:19.97,0:21:20.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to suggest,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:20.58,0:21:24.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there are some limitations around resistance\Nto surveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:24.64,0:21:29.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in that this resistance seems to remain within\Nthe silos of only certain types of actors.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:29.99,0:21:35.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we're sort of asking: How can we then move\Nbeyond that?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:35.56,0:21:39.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And start thinking of surveillance in terms\Nof perhaps data justice,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:39.82,0:21:45.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or somehow thinking of how surveillance connects\Nor resistance to surveillance connects
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.06,0:21:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to broader social and economic justice agendas.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.46,0:21:50.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course some of this is already happening,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:50.85,0:21:53.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and some of it has been discussed here at\Nthis congress.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:53.46,0:21:57.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So for example how does data collection lead\Nto discrimination?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.18,0:21:59.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or how does it come to suppress dissent?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:59.86,0:22:04.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But also how does surveillance relate to working\Nconditions and workers' rights for example,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:04.79,0:22:08.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or how does it link to inequality and poverty?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:08.89,0:22:11.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I suppose our research suggests that we\Nneed to think about
Dialogue: 0,0:22:11.41,0:22:15.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that if encryption and technical solutions\Nand discussions around digital rights such
Dialogue: 0,0:22:15.72,0:22:16.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as privacy
Dialogue: 0,0:22:16.75,0:22:21.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,remain really within certain circles and perhaps\Nevents like this and so forth,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:21.71,0:22:27.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how can we get it to resonate with a broader\Npublic in some ways?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:27.35,0:22:29.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So — wow, we finished much faster than we\Nthought we would.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:29.46,0:22:35.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But anyway. So basically we've had a snapshot\Nnow of sort of recent public debate,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:35.30,0:22:40.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and sort of ones that suggest that we might\Nneed to think about how to connect concerns
Dialogue: 0,0:22:40.25,0:22:41.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with surveillance,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:41.79,0:22:47.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are discussed in places like this to\Nother issues in order to resonate with a broader
Dialogue: 0,0:22:47.38,0:22:48.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,public.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:48.63,0:22:50.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's it, we have time for questions
Dialogue: 0,0:22:50.17,0:23:00.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:23:00.34,0:23:05.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Ask questions or comments, or additional\Ninformation about some other projects.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:05.59,0:23:10.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Angel: Please, line up at the microphones, so you\Ncan speak clearly your questions into the
Dialogue: 0,0:23:10.32,0:23:13.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,microphone, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:13.19,0:23:16.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The microphone in the back, please.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:20.59,0:23:21.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Go ahead.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.45,0:23:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Question: Hey. So do you think this lack of\Ntechnical understanding of the Snowden leaks
Dialogue: 0,0:23:28.13,0:23:34.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might be due to Snowden fatigue, that is people\Ngetting really tired of reading a Snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:23:34.54,0:23:35.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,article?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:35.32,0:23:38.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And another one and another one: Did you know you might have contributed to it?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:38.86,0:23:41.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Angel: Can you maybe repeat the question?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.87,0:23:45.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you leave the room, please do so quietly,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:45.64,0:23:47.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we can't understand his question.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:47.52,0:23:56.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Sorry. So the question is: This lack of understanding of the content of the Snowden leaks, maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:23:56.11,0:23:58.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on a basic technical level,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:58.32,0:24:03.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could that something that contributed to that,\Ncould that be Snowden fatigue?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:03.65,0:24:09.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,L: And you're referring to this sort of drip-feed\Nway of releasing those documents...
Dialogue: 0,0:24:09.45,0:24:12.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Not necessarily criticizing the way it\Nwas released, but there was a hell of a lot
Dialogue: 0,0:24:12.87,0:24:15.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of content and a lot of people got bored of\Nit.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:15.06,0:24:19.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,L: Right. okay. {\i1}mumbling{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.90,0:24:24.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: There's a bit of that I think probably\Nthat we see
Dialogue: 0,0:24:24.22,0:24:29.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and The Guardian at some point stopped their\Ncoverage or releasing more information
Dialogue: 0,0:24:29.71,0:24:34.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then we've saw more information coming\Nout through other sources and Intercept and
Dialogue: 0,0:24:34.67,0:24:36.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so on.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:36.67,0:24:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think what we are focusing on or what\Nwe saw in media coverage particularly,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:44.32,0:24:48.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were some deficiencies I think in the media\Ncoverage,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:48.69,0:24:54.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we would create this link mainly between\Nthe lack of knowledge
Dialogue: 0,0:24:54.43,0:24:57.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the deficiencies in the media coverage\Nper se.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:57.58,0:25:06.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not necessarily in The Guardian, but probably\Nmost other media organizations and other newspapers.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:08.22,0:25:12.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,L: I think there's different views on that\Nbecause a lot of people feel like it's stayed
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.29,0:25:13.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the public debate
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.22,0:25:18.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or in the public realm, because there was a\Ncontinuation of revelations that came after
Dialogue: 0,0:25:18.13,0:25:18.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,each other,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:18.39,0:25:22.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than just doing this data dump thing\Nand you know just doing everything in one
Dialogue: 0,0:25:22.53,0:25:23.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:23.20,0:25:27.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think we will probably have been able\Nto say the same thing if it was done differently
Dialogue: 0,0:25:27.63,0:25:28.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:29.90,0:25:31.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Angel: There is a question from the internet.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:31.95,0:25:38.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Yes. Ifup is asking as far as he or she\Nunderstood the people were not informed pretty
Dialogue: 0,0:25:38.71,0:25:41.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,well on what really was revealed.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:41.47,0:25:45.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wouldn't it have been the task of the media\Nto inform them?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:45.73,0:25:48.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how could they have been done better?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.51,0:25:55.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,L: This seems to be a rhetorical question\Nin that they didn't... yes
Dialogue: 0,0:25:55.77,0:25:59.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Well yes, they should have.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:59.28,0:26:04.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ideally we would think that it is the task\Nof the media to inform,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:04.85,0:26:11.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we saw that some media did inform, others\Ndid do pretty much the opposite.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:11.18,0:26:13.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then there's the question how to improve that.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:13.32,0:26:17.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what is the role of different types of\Nmedia and alternative media
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.05,0:26:21.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what does need to change structurally\Nin forms of mainstream media?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:21.90,0:26:23.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that is a big debate.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:23.94,0:26:28.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,L: And we should also say that we've done\Ninterviews with journalists, asking questions
Dialogue: 0,0:26:28.72,0:26:32.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as to why they covered this the way that they\Ndid.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:32.49,0:26:36.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And hopefully those interviews will reveal\Nsomething more,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:36.14,0:26:38.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but those are still ongoing.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:38.21,0:26:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we've had for example James Ball from\NThe Guardian who came to our conference in
Dialogue: 0,0:26:43.20,0:26:43.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,June,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:43.74,0:26:47.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and talked about some of the structural problems\Nwith a couple of journalists who cover security
Dialogue: 0,0:26:47.23,0:26:48.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issues.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:48.41,0:26:54.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's quite a lot of obstacles and so\Nfor them to do that in a critical and investigatory
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.37,0:26:54.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.70,0:26:58.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think those are the issues that we want\Nto explore when we find out more through these
Dialogue: 0,0:26:58.72,0:26:59.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those interviews.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:00.60,0:27:04.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Angel: We have time for one last question,\Nplease make it short
Dialogue: 0,0:27:06.99,0:27:10.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: Hello. That's better
Dialogue: 0,0:27:10.22,0:27:12.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not surprised to be honest,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:12.91,0:27:18.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have seen a similar thing by John Oliver,\Nso Last Week Tonight, I can only recommend
Dialogue: 0,0:27:18.01,0:27:19.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that scene.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:19.89,0:27:23.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the question is only about what do we talk\Nabout,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:23.31,0:27:25.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so can everybody relate to that?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:25.22,0:27:28.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have just one question to the first slides\Nyou have shown
Dialogue: 0,0:27:28.05,0:27:31.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the numbers: What do they reveal?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:33.69,0:27:34.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Numbers?
Dialogue: 0,0:27:34.92,0:27:39.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: In your first slides there were all of\Nthose bar charts with kind of numbers and
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.50,0:27:40.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was interested in those numbers.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:40.88,0:27:42.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.70,0:27:45.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Q: I guess occurences.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:45.79,0:27:49.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Yes, so at the beginning we showed the\Ntime line of...
Dialogue: 0,0:27:49.70,0:27:51.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,L: Numbers of mumbling
Dialogue: 0,0:27:51.62,0:28:02.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A: Ah yes. These were the dates of the publication\Nand that is the volume of publication
Dialogue: 0,0:28:02.64,0:28:05.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again: Looking at the press in this case,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.44,0:28:08.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at not just The Guardian, but all\Nkinds of other newspapers.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:08.39,0:28:12.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's one part of the research and there\Nwill be another part of the research that
Dialogue: 0,0:28:12.38,0:28:15.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you will find information about this on the\Nwebsite,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:15.24,0:28:20.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is about broadcasting, which is about\NTV and radio coverage.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:20.23,0:28:24.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But so far what we saw is that there is a\Nfairly similar picture
Dialogue: 0,0:28:24.21,0:28:26.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of how these curves developed,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:26.33,0:28:30.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also in terms of the content of the coverage.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.42,0:28:33.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Angel: I'd say time is up.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:33.05,0:28:36.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you very much Lina Dencik and Arne Hintz\Nfor your talk!
Dialogue: 0,0:28:36.31,0:28:37.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}applause{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:28:37.57,0:28:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.58,0:28:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\NJoin, and help us!