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Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:15.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Wikipaka preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:15.07,0:00:20.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: We're very happy to have Robert\NTibbo with us on the channel for his fifth
Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.16,0:00:24.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,year in a row here, speaking at the Chaos\NCommunication Congress. Today's lecture,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.97,0:00:31.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Robert Tibbo, you probably know him as a\Nlawyer involved in the Snowden case. His
Dialogue: 0,0:00:31.21,0:00:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lecture today is called The Continued\NErosion of International Law and Human
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.76,0:00:41.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Rights and a Global Pandemic. And and,\Nyeah, let's hear it. And we will be here
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.52,0:00:45.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,later for Q&A.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.46,0:00:59.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Robert Tibbo: Good evening. I'd like to\Nthank the Computer Chaos Congress again
Dialogue: 0,0:00:59.32,0:01:05.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for having me speak at the convention this\Nyear, even though due to the global
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.35,0:01:11.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pandemic, it's by remote. But as you may\Nbe aware, I'm the lawyer for the snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.67,0:01:17.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,refugees. And also I'm introducing another\None of my clients, Ibraham Hussein, who is
Dialogue: 0,0:01:17.68,0:01:27.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a refugee and journalist from Somalia. And\Njust to inform anyone who's unaware at
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.74,0:01:31.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this stage, the Snowden refugees were a\Ngroup of refugees from South and Southeast
Dialogue: 0,0:01:31.39,0:01:38.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Asia who provided shelter, food and\Ncompassion and humanity to Edward Snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:01:38.26,0:01:44.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when he was in Hong Kong in 2013, when Mr.\NSnowden made the disclosures on the NSA's
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.20,0:01:52.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,electronic mass surveillance program. And\Nalso to provide an update on my role as a
Dialogue: 0,0:01:52.58,0:01:56.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lawyer for the Snowden refugees, I\Ncontinue to act for them as a barrister in
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.41,0:02:04.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their Hong Kong cases. And within Canada,\NI was granted special authorization to act
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.55,0:02:13.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the Snowden refugees who still have\Nrefugee claims at the Canadian government.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:13.69,0:02:19.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And just briefly, I have a slide up with\Nthe Snowden refugees sitting together in
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.28,0:02:26.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong, on the left side is Vanessa.\NShe's from the Philippines. Her daughter
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.13,0:02:34.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is below her, that's Keana, born in Hong\NKong, stateless, and is still stateless
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.12,0:02:41.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,today. Beside Vanessa is Ajith, the former\Nsoldier from Sri Lanka. And beside him is
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.76,0:02:47.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the family of four: Nadeeka, Supun, both\Nfrom Sri Lanka, and their two children,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:47.19,0:02:55.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sethumdi and Dinath , also born in Hong\NKong, stateless. Out of the seven Snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.57,0:03:05.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,refugees, two of them actually succeeded\Nin their cases in 2019 and this is a photo
Dialogue: 0,0:03:05.02,0:03:11.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have of myself meeting with Vanessa and\NKeana at Pearson International Airport,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.53,0:03:27.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Toronto on March 24th, 2019. A year ago, I\Ntalked about the decline in human rights
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.32,0:03:34.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around the globe. Nothing has changed\Nsince a year ago. And with the Covid-19
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.24,0:03:40.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,global pandemic, things have just gotten a\Nlot worse. Governments have been
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.27,0:03:51.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,empowered, emboldened to continue to\Nattack those who dissent, who are critical
Dialogue: 0,0:03:51.52,0:03:57.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of government around the world. And what\Nhas made matters worse are the people's
Dialogue: 0,0:03:57.38,0:04:01.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inability to go out and exercise their\Nright to freedom of expression,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:01.21,0:04:07.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,association and assembly and protests\Nbecause of covid and for public safety
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.41,0:04:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reasons. And the government has used that\Nto their advantage to abuse civilians in
Dialogue: 0,0:04:14.88,0:04:22.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society. The media as well has been\Nconsumed, in my view, by the global
Dialogue: 0,0:04:22.31,0:04:28.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pandemic, as well as other significant\Nglobal news stories such as the US
Dialogue: 0,0:04:28.22,0:04:33.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,elections and Donald Trump. What this has\Ndone is it's taken the media away,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:33.86,0:04:39.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,journalists away from other important\Nhuman rights stories around the world. So
Dialogue: 0,0:04:39.24,0:04:45.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those whose cases are, the circumstances\Nare not high profile. A lot of these
Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.52,0:04:48.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stories are not being reported anymore.\NThey're not being investigated anymore,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.84,0:04:55.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is adding to governments being aware\Nthat they can continue to commit human
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.60,0:05:04.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rights violations around the world with\Nimpunity. Now, I have a client a region
Dialogue: 0,0:05:04.50,0:05:12.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Somalia. He's a journalist and I'm\Nintroducing him to the public in this
Dialogue: 0,0:05:12.61,0:05:19.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presentation because he fled persecution\Nas a journalist in Somalia and he found
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.86,0:05:27.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,himself in Hong Kong for a period of time\Nin an untenable situation and had later
Dialogue: 0,0:05:27.100,0:05:31.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,found his way to the European Union to\Nseek refugee status there. And I'd like to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:31.61,0:05:43.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go into that. And basically, Mr. Ibrahim\Nhad covered news stories in Mogadishu and
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.33,0:05:52.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,across Somalia. And he was targeted by\Nboth the government and al-Shabaab. It was
Dialogue: 0,0:05:52.84,0:05:58.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a situation that he... and there's two\Nquotes here which I'll read out, which
Dialogue: 0,0:05:58.12,0:06:04.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really encapsulate the circumstances on\Nthe ground. Ibrahim has stated: In the
Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.46,0:06:07.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,morning, we hugged our family like we\Nmight never see them again, because every
Dialogue: 0,0:06:07.76,0:06:13.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,day in Mogadishu, journalists may be\Nkilled in the crossfire or murdered by al-
Dialogue: 0,0:06:13.30,0:06:17.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Shabaab. And he also stated: For a big\Nstory, we would bring two or three
Dialogue: 0,0:06:17.52,0:06:23.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cameramen to record the scene together in\Ncase one was wounded or shot. As the
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.13,0:06:29.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lawyer for Ibrahim, I've actually seen\Nfootage that they've recorded of, you
Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.18,0:06:38.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, people on the front lines there with\Nbeing shot dead and. This is a horrific
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.35,0:06:46.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situation for any journalist to be in and\Nto report in. The situation for Ibrahim
Dialogue: 0,0:06:46.87,0:06:51.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,came to a crossroads in 2009 when he was\Nkidnaped by al-Shabab. He'd been targeted
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.36,0:06:54.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the government as well, the police and\Nalso officers at the Ministry of
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.87,0:06:59.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Information and Culture. But it was al-\NShabab who grabbed him, tortured him,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:59.96,0:07:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,threatened him, threatened to kill him\Nwith a knife, gun to his head and demanded
Dialogue: 0,0:07:04.70,0:07:10.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a ransom of 18000 US $, which fortunately\Nhis family was able to secure. And after
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.24,0:07:18.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,six days as a hostage, he was released.\NNow, Ibrahim had worked for universal
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.79,0:07:27.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,television in Somalia during two periods\Nand he had fled Somalia for a period of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:27.92,0:07:34.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,time to try to find refuge in another part\Nof of Africa, which didn't work and then
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.66,0:07:39.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tried again where he found himself in\NSouth Sudan, which was, there was no
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.58,0:07:45.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,durable solution there for him. So in\NSeptember 2013, he fled to Hong Kong and
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.97,0:07:50.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he sought asylum there. His thinking was\Nthat Hong Kong had a reputation of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.55,0:07:57.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,civility and rule of law. But upon his\Narrival, he, you know, he realized that he
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.98,0:08:03.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had been seriously mistaken. Immediately,\Nhe was arrested and detained at the Castle
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.05,0:08:10.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Peak Bay Immigration Center for short. We\Ncall that CIC and it's basically Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:08:10.56,0:08:16.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong's version of a gulag. And there's an\Naward winning human rights story by Olivia
Dialogue: 0,0:08:16.65,0:08:21.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Chang from Hong Kong called The Invisible\NWall. I provided the link on the slides.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:21.89,0:08:26.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you'll be able to to read an English\Nversion of that story. Now, after being
Dialogue: 0,0:08:26.81,0:08:31.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,locked up for three months, he was\Nreleased on recognizance, which is, I
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.54,0:08:35.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mean, it's provided with a paper that\Ntypically foreign criminals are provided
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.05,0:08:42.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with. And on the outside, he faced\Ndestitution and racial discrimination. And
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.94,0:08:47.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was constantly racially profiled by the\Npolice, stopped all the time, threatened
Dialogue: 0,0:08:47.43,0:08:53.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Hong Kong society itself just\Nbasically ignored him. It's like, it's as
Dialogue: 0,0:08:53.100,0:09:00.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if he didn't exist. He had no food or\Nmoney for the five months after he had
Dialogue: 0,0:09:00.81,0:09:06.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been released from Detention and\NInternational Social Services, the Swiss
Dialogue: 0,0:09:06.05,0:09:11.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,organization with a branch in Hong Kong,\Nprovides humanitarian assistance as a
Dialogue: 0,0:09:11.98,0:09:15.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contractor for the Hong Kong Social\NWelfare Department. But still, for five
Dialogue: 0,0:09:15.60,0:09:24.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,months, he was destitute. No food and no\Nmoney. And in 2013, on my slide there is
Dialogue: 0,0:09:24.89,0:09:30.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an error, it is 2014, but in late 2013,\NIbrahim showed up at my office with
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.57,0:09:40.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another one of his colleagues who had\Nworked for him in Somalia. And they were
Dialogue: 0,0:09:40.35,0:09:46.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wearing bedroom slippers and used clothing\Nand they were starving. And I immediately
Dialogue: 0,0:09:46.27,0:09:53.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,took up their cases with the UNHCR in Hong\NKong. And subsequent to that meeting in my
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.41,0:09:59.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,office, my wife took both of them down to\Nout of her own pocket to purchase shoes
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.93,0:10:06.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for them, running shoes and also to buy\Nthem some food. Now, he is what I would
Dialogue: 0,0:10:06.34,0:10:10.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,describe as a victim of constructive\Nrefoulment, and I'm going to go into the
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.12,0:10:13.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,law on that in a few minutes. But\Nbasically, the Hong Kong government has a
Dialogue: 0,0:10:13.68,0:10:19.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legal policy framework that's designed to\Nbreak down the mental health and physical
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.98,0:10:28.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,health of asylum seekers, basically\Nthrough social isolation and deprivation
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.16,0:10:36.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of sufficient humanitarian assistance so\Nthat they don't starve. And he described a
Dialogue: 0,0:10:36.54,0:10:42.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situation a few days ago looking back:\NAfter the asylum seeking community
Dialogue: 0,0:10:42.06,0:10:45.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protested and occupied social welfare and\Ninternational social services offices in
Dialogue: 0,0:10:45.96,0:10:50.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2013, protesting not having enough food or\Nrent money to survive, I felt like my mind
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.98,0:10:56.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was breaking. I felt I would die in Hong\NKong. Ibrahim's mental and physical health
Dialogue: 0,0:10:56.61,0:11:02.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,declined in Hong Kong to the point where\Nit was a choice between not surviving in
Dialogue: 0,0:11:02.43,0:11:10.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong or, you know, trying to get to\Nanother country. The South China Morning
Dialogue: 0,0:11:10.34,0:11:17.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Post reported his situation as a\Njournalist and reporter stated: An
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.54,0:11:22.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,experience of the worst in humanity was\Nnot what Ibrahim Mohammed Hussein expected
Dialogue: 0,0:11:22.06,0:11:25.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when he touched down in Hong Kong eight\Nmonths ago, fresh from persecution in
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.59,0:11:36.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Africa. Now, I mentioned Constructive\NRefoulment, and this is a framework and a
Dialogue: 0,0:11:36.77,0:11:41.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strategy that's implemented by the Hong\NKong government and professors at Chinese
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.89,0:11:46.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,University have described it as follows:\Ngiven that a necessary consequence of the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:46.98,0:11:51.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,government's policies is social exclusion\Nand destitution, there are major concerns,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:51.28,0:11:54.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly for the mental health of\Nrefugees. This is especially the case
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.76,0:11:59.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because refugees stranded in the territory\Nfaced indefinite periods while claims are
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.46,0:12:04.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,processed, all the while plagued by\Nuncertainty. Such concerns not only raise
Dialogue: 0,0:12:04.44,0:12:10.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the issues of compatibility with the\NICESCR and ICCPR, but also place the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.35,0:12:13.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,individual concerned at risk of returning\Nto the source of danger, thus offending
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.90,0:12:18.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the doctrine of constructive refoulment.\NSo Hong Kong has prohibited from returning
Dialogue: 0,0:12:18.50,0:12:24.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anybody who is seeking asylum in Hong Kong\Nuntil after the cases are screened and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.21,0:12:31.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rejected. But the Hong Kong government in\Nparallel with, you know, with that policy
Dialogue: 0,0:12:31.60,0:12:34.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they have to follow the law, they\Nhave to follow to screen refugees or
Dialogue: 0,0:12:34.82,0:12:39.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asylum seekers, is they make their lives\Nso miserable, so difficult, that these
Dialogue: 0,0:12:39.64,0:12:43.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asylum seekers' mental health deteriorates\Nto the point where they give up and they
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.47,0:12:52.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they would rather return home to die\Nthere. Ibrahim left Hong Kong, but under
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.81,0:12:59.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,international law and Hong Kong's\Npolicies, they sent him back to Somalia.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.09,0:13:05.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He was quickly targeted again and over a\Nnumber of years, he sought internal flight
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.87,0:13:10.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relocation alternatives within Somalia. It\Ndidn't work. And then he finally left
Dialogue: 0,0:13:10.53,0:13:15.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Somalia and found his way to the European\NUnion, ending up in Greece. The first camp
Dialogue: 0,0:13:15.68,0:13:23.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was put in was the Moria refugee camp,\Nwhich Ibrahim describes as a place of
Dialogue: 0,0:13:23.46,0:13:28.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,violence. There was violence on a daily\Nbasis. There was a lack of resources,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:28.03,0:13:36.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,food. The conditions were inhuman and\Ndegrading. And Ibrahim himself and the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:36.66,0:13:42.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people in his makeshift structure where\Nthey stayed, were attacked on seven
Dialogue: 0,0:13:42.17,0:13:51.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,occasions during that time. And the other\Nthing that Ibrahim has stated is that the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:51.22,0:13:54.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,police just stood by and watched. They\Nallowed that to happen. They acquiesce to
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.85,0:14:04.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the violence against other refugees. And\Nthe plus side of Ibrahim making it to the
Dialogue: 0,0:14:04.62,0:14:11.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,European Union, was there was a screening\Nprocess that proceeded quickly compared to
Dialogue: 0,0:14:11.12,0:14:18.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong. And the second plus is that the\Nscreening system in the European Union
Dialogue: 0,0:14:18.80,0:14:26.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,countries actually grants refugees status\Nif they can make their case that they have
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.78,0:14:31.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a well-founded fear of persecution. In\NHong Kong, the acceptance rate was zero
Dialogue: 0,0:14:31.30,0:14:35.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Hong Kong not being a signatory to the\NUN convention relating to the Status of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:35.72,0:14:42.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Refugees. You know, even if you succeeded,\Nyou could not obtain refugee status in
Dialogue: 0,0:14:42.89,0:14:52.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong and you could not resettle\Nthere. And this is a picture of Ibrahim at
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.26,0:14:59.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Moria refugee camp, there was an arson\Nand a large fire at the camp, which left
Dialogue: 0,0:14:59.63,0:15:04.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,him five days on the streets outside the\Ncamp, and then he would be sent to the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:04.49,0:15:14.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lesbos refugee camp thereafter. Now, with\Nhis acceptance as a refugee in June 2020,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:14.78,0:15:20.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was still stuck in the camp. And here's\Nanother photo of Ibrahim when he went to
Dialogue: 0,0:15:20.01,0:15:29.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Lesbos camp. There are no toilets, now\Nshowers, lack of resources and in late
Dialogue: 0,0:15:29.56,0:15:37.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2020, the Greek government moved, allowed\NIbrahim to leave the camps, and he's now
Dialogue: 0,0:15:37.09,0:15:43.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,living in a Greek community, supported\Nonly for a limited period of time by the
Dialogue: 0,0:15:43.62,0:15:52.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,government. In January 2021, mistake on my\Nslide - 2020 should be 2021 - he'll have
Dialogue: 0,0:15:52.70,0:16:02.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to fend for himself. And I've brought up,\Nintroduced Ibraham here to everybody today
Dialogue: 0,0:16:02.70,0:16:06.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because he's been in both Hong Kong and\Nhe's found his way to the European Union.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.44,0:16:17.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are serious problems on both sides\Nof the globe, but he is grateful that the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:17.61,0:16:23.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proper screening is apparently happening\Nin the European Union and he's now safe.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.66,0:16:28.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In my view, he's an extraordinary person,\Nextraordinary journalist, and there are
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.46,0:16:33.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very few journalists like this on the\Nplanet with his commitment and willingness
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.33,0:16:43.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have taken the risks, risking his life\Nto report, do reporting in Somalia.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:43.21,0:16:47.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ibrahim would like to continue working as\Na journalist again. He's just slamming on
Dialogue: 0,0:16:47.66,0:16:52.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his feet in Greece right now and waiting\Nfor his formal documents, all his formal
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.89,0:17:02.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,documents to be issued. But he's looking\Nto continue to work as a journalist. Now,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.80,0:17:07.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to go, I'm going back to Hong\NKong and I'm going to be returning to the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:07.52,0:17:11.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Snowden refugees, but I'd like to provide a\Nquick update on what's happening in Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:17:11.50,0:17:18.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong. And the slide I have up here now\Nbasically shows from 2014 to 2019, the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.68,0:17:27.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rapid decline in human rights in Hong Kong\Nand in particular, rendition, enforced
Dialogue: 0,0:17:27.03,0:17:32.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,disappearances, ill-treatment, torture,\Nand even attempted extrajudicial killings.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.21,0:17:45.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And from 2004 to 2019, you know, Hong Kong\Nhas become authoritarian. And to review
Dialogue: 0,0:17:45.44,0:17:49.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what happened last year, Carrie Lam, the\Nchief executive of Hong Kong, had wanted
Dialogue: 0,0:17:49.85,0:17:55.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to bring in an act into law, an\Nextradition bill which would allow
Dialogue: 0,0:17:55.52,0:18:00.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rendition of individuals from Hong Kong\Ninto mainland China. There would have been
Dialogue: 0,0:18:00.36,0:18:04.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a formal legal mechanism to do that. Hong\NKong people and lawyers in Hong Kong are
Dialogue: 0,0:18:04.72,0:18:10.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very well aware that mainland China\Njudiciary is not independent. It's like
Dialogue: 0,0:18:10.50,0:18:16.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any other government department under the\Nexecutive, it's policy and politically
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.62,0:18:22.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,motivated in terms of how judges in\Nmainland China try criminal cases, due
Dialogue: 0,0:18:22.98,0:18:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,process rights are limited in China and\Nthe Chinese criminal justice system and at
Dialogue: 0,0:18:29.60,0:18:34.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,times do not exist. And I'm going to\Nmention the case of Michael Spayor or
Dialogue: 0,0:18:34.94,0:18:40.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Michael Kovrig, two Canadians who were\Ndetained in December 2018. Innocent
Dialogue: 0,0:18:40.67,0:18:44.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Canadians who have done nothing wrong,\Narbitrarily arrested, detained, and this
Dialogue: 0,0:18:44.68,0:18:49.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,year, earlier this year, charged with\Ncrimes in mainland China and the mainland
Dialogue: 0,0:18:49.05,0:18:55.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Chinese government has effectively\Nadmitted that they've, they're holding the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:55.81,0:19:03.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,two Canadians hostage as a bargaining chip\Nto pressure the Canadian government to
Dialogue: 0,0:19:03.75,0:19:10.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bring an end to the extradition\Nproceedings against Meng Wanzhou of the
Dialogue: 0,0:19:10.01,0:19:17.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hallway Chinese telecom group. Out of\Nsignificance, so I'm mentioning this
Dialogue: 0,0:19:17.49,0:19:25.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the two Michael's cases in China\Nhighlight, you know, the deficiencies, the
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.97,0:19:29.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,clear deficiencies and shortcomings of the\Ncriminal justice system in China. In Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:19:29.53,0:19:35.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong, people, you know, were not prepared\Nto accept that they would face justice or
Dialogue: 0,0:19:35.44,0:19:39.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accused of a crime and have to go through\Na criminal justice system in China,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.53,0:19:45.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mainland China. So protests broke out.\NPeople in the millions went in the streets
Dialogue: 0,0:19:45.11,0:19:51.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from June 19 2019, onward. And it was in\NSeptember 2019 that Carrie Lam, the chief
Dialogue: 0,0:19:51.46,0:19:55.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,executive of Hong Kong, announced that the\Nextradition bill would be withdrawn. So
Dialogue: 0,0:19:55.85,0:20:05.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was a great success. Now, with\NCovid-19, human rights violations in Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.67,0:20:11.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong have just continued on and they've\Nbecome worse, and the Hong Kong government
Dialogue: 0,0:20:11.36,0:20:15.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,recognizing that millions of people would\Nnot be going out into the streets to
Dialogue: 0,0:20:15.53,0:20:22.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protest under Covid-19 because nobody,\Neverybody understood this is a public,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:22.15,0:20:26.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,serious public health risk and people\Ndon't want to get sick. So there are
Dialogue: 0,0:20:26.29,0:20:30.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,limited protests, but Hong Kong and\NBeijing calculated that you wouldn't have
Dialogue: 0,0:20:30.60,0:20:37.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the millions of people on the streets. And\Nthey introduced a bill, no Beijing
Dialogue: 0,0:20:37.17,0:20:43.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually did this through their own\Nlegislature, enacting a constitutional
Dialogue: 0,0:20:43.17,0:20:47.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,provision under the new net under Article\N23 of the Hong Kong Basic Law, which is
Dialogue: 0,0:20:47.92,0:20:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong's constitution, basically\Nbringing in new crimes against the state.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.62,0:20:58.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I've put in the slide those crimes:\Nsecession, subversion, terrorism,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.23,0:21:04.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collusion with foreign forces. That\Nlegislation is a constitutional provision.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.24,0:21:10.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's ambiguous, it's poorly written, and\Nit can be interpreted in a way, because of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.27,0:21:21.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its ambiguity, interpreted and used in an\Narbitrary way and used to violate the
Dialogue: 0,0:21:21.24,0:21:32.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rights of any civilian in Hong Kong. I'm\Ngoing to go into the scope of this law. If
Dialogue: 0,0:21:32.54,0:21:36.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one is arrested, if a person is arrested\Nunder the new national security law,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.26,0:21:40.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's no presumption of bail anymore.\NThe defendant actually has the burden of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:40.32,0:21:52.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proof on them to seek bail. Indefinite\Ndetention. If bail is not granted, that
Dialogue: 0,0:21:52.60,0:21:57.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,person could be sitting in remand in a\Njail for months or years before trial. The
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.01,0:22:01.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trials are going to be held behind closed\Ndoors. The judges are actually selected by
Dialogue: 0,0:22:01.15,0:22:05.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the executive branch of government. They\Nselect judges from the judiciary. But it's
Dialogue: 0,0:22:05.61,0:22:13.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not the chief justice of the Hong Kong\Ncourt. That choose selects the judges to
Dialogue: 0,0:22:13.59,0:22:21.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be on that list that the government\Nchooses. In this law, anyone is accused of
Dialogue: 0,0:22:21.33,0:22:27.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a national security fence under Hong\NKong's basic law can be renditioned to
Dialogue: 0,0:22:27.15,0:22:34.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mainland China to face justice there. So\Nwhat the Hong Kong authorities were not
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.12,0:22:39.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,able to achieve in 2019, they've now,\NBeijing has now achieved so that anybody
Dialogue: 0,0:22:39.41,0:22:46.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Hong Kong who is accused of committing\Na national security crime can be brought
Dialogue: 0,0:22:46.25,0:22:52.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into mainland China and face justice\Nthere. Extraterritorial criminality.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:52.08,0:22:57.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Anybody who writes something, says\Nsomething, does something that is critical
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.19,0:23:05.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Hong Kong government. If the Hong\NKong authorities feel that this is an act
Dialogue: 0,0:23:05.38,0:23:12.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of secession or subversion, they can seek\Nthe extradition of that person, let's say,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:12.12,0:23:17.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Canada or in Germany or another\Ncountry. So this new national security law
Dialogue: 0,0:23:17.23,0:23:25.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has a global reach. Consequence of this is\Ncountries in Europe, including Germany,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:25.86,0:23:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the United States, Canada, New Zealand,\Nthe U.K., Australia, have all either
Dialogue: 0,0:23:30.20,0:23:33.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suspended or terminated the extradition\Nagreements, treaties that they have with
Dialogue: 0,0:23:33.63,0:23:40.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong. The reason being is the new\Nnational security law is a de facto
Dialogue: 0,0:23:40.04,0:23:46.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,backdoor for Beijing to extradite people\Nfrom around the world. Very few countries
Dialogue: 0,0:23:46.16,0:23:50.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have extradition treaties with mainland\NChina because of the shortcomings in its
Dialogue: 0,0:23:50.73,0:23:58.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criminal justice system. And then I've put\Nup a slide just listing a few countries
Dialogue: 0,0:23:58.64,0:24:07.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that have suspended treaties. And now,\Nwithin the Hong Kong legal government
Dialogue: 0,0:24:07.02,0:24:10.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,itself, three branches of government, the\Nexecutive branch, legislative and
Dialogue: 0,0:24:10.77,0:24:17.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judiciary, it's quite clear that Beijing\Nnow has firm control over the executive
Dialogue: 0,0:24:17.23,0:24:25.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,branch of government. Carrie Lam, you\Nknow, loyal to Beijing, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.34,0:24:31.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,following through on directions from\NBeijing. Also in 2020, we saw officers
Dialogue: 0,0:24:31.71,0:24:38.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from mainland China now working in Hong\NKong side by side with Hong Kong civil
Dialogue: 0,0:24:38.00,0:24:44.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,servants and basically advising and\Ndirecting the legislature. A number of
Dialogue: 0,0:24:44.14,0:24:49.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pro-democracy legislators were removed\Nactually by Beijing and new legislation
Dialogue: 0,0:24:49.42,0:24:58.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was imposed by Beijing that anyone who is\Nviewed as a risk to national security
Dialogue: 0,0:24:58.43,0:25:03.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without trial can be removed from the\Nlegislature. They were supposed to be
Dialogue: 0,0:25:03.93,0:25:09.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,elections for the legislature in earlier\Nthis year. They were canceled because of
Dialogue: 0,0:25:09.04,0:25:16.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Covid. And with the new law imposed by\NBeijing, there was a mass resignation by
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.85,0:25:21.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the pro-democracy legislators in Hong\NKong. So effectively, Beijing has taken
Dialogue: 0,0:25:21.48,0:25:26.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,control of Hong Kong's legislature, the\Nlast or third branch of government, the
Dialogue: 0,0:25:26.57,0:25:32.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judiciary. There's been a number of cases\Nwhere judges have brought in their
Dialogue: 0,0:25:32.73,0:25:37.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political opinions. Most significantly, a\Nnonpermanent judge of the quarterfinal
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.29,0:25:42.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appeal, Australian Justice Spigelman\Nresigned in September this year from the
Dialogue: 0,0:25:42.23,0:25:48.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quarterfinal appeal, citing the new\Nnational security law. Freedom of
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.54,0:25:52.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,expression in Hong Kong has frozen.\NFreedom of association, assembly and the
Dialogue: 0,0:25:52.42,0:25:59.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ability of severely diminished. Hong Kong\Nwas ranked 18th in the world in terms of
Dialogue: 0,0:25:59.87,0:26:06.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,freedom of the press and journalism, but\Nin 2020 it fell down to 80th place. In the
Dialogue: 0,0:26:06.41,0:26:09.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,news right now has been the arrest of\NJimmy Lai, the founder of Apple Daily
Dialogue: 0,0:26:09.66,0:26:15.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under the national security law. Bail was\Ndenied, but he secured bail last week from
Dialogue: 0,0:26:15.41,0:26:21.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the High Court. The Department of Justice,\NDirector of Public Prosecutions, has filed
Dialogue: 0,0:26:21.81,0:26:29.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an appeal to that, to the court, a final\Nappeal to seek that the bail be revoked
Dialogue: 0,0:26:29.18,0:26:35.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for Mr Lai. There's also other examples of\Njournalists like Choi Yuk-Ling of RTHK.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:35.23,0:26:40.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What the Hong Kong authorities have been\Ndoing the last year is if they cannot find
Dialogue: 0,0:26:40.26,0:26:45.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a basis to arrest an individual journalist\Nor activist or politician under the new
Dialogue: 0,0:26:45.19,0:26:52.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,national security law, they use some\Ndraconian laws or try to find some
Dialogue: 0,0:26:52.03,0:26:57.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technicality to, you know, arrest somebody\Nfor something that's not even related to
Dialogue: 0,0:26:57.83,0:27:06.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their work, simply trying to shut up or\Nstop the media from speaking and writing
Dialogue: 0,0:27:06.76,0:27:13.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their stories. In 2017, there's been an\Nexodus and en masse from Hong Kong. It's
Dialogue: 0,0:27:13.76,0:27:24.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been quiet. It's been steady. But that\Nexodus accelerated in 2019 and accelerated
Dialogue: 0,0:27:24.68,0:27:30.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even more in 2020 with the new national\Nsecurity law. And talking to clients and
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.14,0:27:37.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,colleagues, the shipping and freight\Ncompanies in Hong Kong are overbooked.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:37.56,0:27:42.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That data indicates that there's large\Nnumbers of people leaving Hong Kong. They
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.42,0:27:49.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do not see a future in Hong Kong. Now,\NCanada started accepting refugees earlier
Dialogue: 0,0:27:49.11,0:27:55.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this year, and in September, Canada\Nstarted granting refugee status of Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:27:55.94,0:27:59.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong people who have been politically\Npersecuted because of their participation
Dialogue: 0,0:27:59.68,0:28:07.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in protests or they voiced their opinion.\NCong Pei Wu, the Chinese ambassador to
Dialogue: 0,0:28:07.67,0:28:12.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Canada in Ottawa spoke out and I'll quote\Nwhat he said: We strongly urge the
Dialogue: 0,0:28:12.56,0:28:15.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Canadian side not to grant so-called\Npolitical asylum to those violent
Dialogue: 0,0:28:15.97,0:28:20.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criminals as refugees because it is\Ninterference in China's domestic affairs
Dialogue: 0,0:28:20.26,0:28:26.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and certainly will embolden those violent\Ncriminals. That was on October 15, 2020.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:26.39,0:28:35.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what is interesting here is that China\Nis actually a signatory to the UN
Dialogue: 0,0:28:35.13,0:28:44.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,convention relating to the Status of\NRefugees. And the refugee convention forms
Dialogue: 0,0:28:44.00,0:28:48.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,part of China's constitution, and part of\Nthat is to respect and recognize that
Dialogue: 0,0:28:48.75,0:28:55.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other countries will screen asylum seekers\Nand grant them refugee status if they show
Dialogue: 0,0:28:55.19,0:28:59.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a well-founded fear of persecution,\Nwhether it's religion, ethnicity, race,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:59.09,0:29:06.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nationality, political opinion or other\Nsocial group. And what's also interesting
Dialogue: 0,0:29:06.27,0:29:12.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that under the Refugee Convention,\Nunder Article 1F and 33.2, but 1F in
Dialogue: 0,0:29:12.76,0:29:19.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particular, that if anybody had committed\Na serious violent offense, let's say, in
Dialogue: 0,0:29:19.43,0:29:26.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong, even if they were granted\Nrecognize as a refugee, they would not be
Dialogue: 0,0:29:26.03,0:29:32.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,granted refugee status because of that\Nviolence. So the Chinese ambassador to
Dialogue: 0,0:29:32.40,0:29:39.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hong Kong apparently doesn't understand\Nthe law and doesn't understand or respect
Dialogue: 0,0:29:39.18,0:29:45.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Canada will be looking at whether any\Nasylum seekers have committed offenses
Dialogue: 0,0:29:45.15,0:29:56.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that would exclude them from that\Nprotection. Over the last year, we've seen
Dialogue: 0,0:29:56.16,0:30:02.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legislators, former legislators, members\Nof political, opposing political parties,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:02.10,0:30:08.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,flee the jurisdiction. What Hong Kong\Nauthorities in Beijing have been trying to
Dialogue: 0,0:30:08.11,0:30:18.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do is to find a basis or whether they're\Nfound well founded or not on evidence, but
Dialogue: 0,0:30:18.76,0:30:22.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to arrest them, put them into the Hong\NKong criminal justice system. And in
Dialogue: 0,0:30:22.60,0:30:27.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applying for bail, typically a condition\Nis they hand over their travel documents.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:27.57,0:30:31.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there are a lot of activists and\Npoliticians in Hong Kong who can't leave
Dialogue: 0,0:30:31.62,0:30:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they don't have travel documents.\NBeijing and Hong Kong clearly want to
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.60,0:30:41.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,close the borders on anyone who is in, you\Nknow, expresses dissent against the Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:30:41.60,0:30:46.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong or Beijing governments. But there\Nare, there have been legislators and
Dialogue: 0,0:30:46.02,0:30:50.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political activists who have fled. And\NI've put on a slide of. Ray Wong and Alan
Dialogue: 0,0:30:50.15,0:30:55.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Li had fled in 2017, about that time, and\Nwere granted refugee status in Germany.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:55.79,0:31:02.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Baggio Leung recently fled to the US.\NSimon Cheng, Honques Lao, Sunny Chou, Ted
Dialogue: 0,0:31:02.55,0:31:07.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hui, Nathan Law, Wayne Chan, Samuel Chu,\Nall left Hong Kong. And they're all
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.10,0:31:15.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seeking asylum, political asylum in\NWestern Europe or North America. Now
Dialogue: 0,0:31:15.26,0:31:21.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming back to the Snowden refugees and\Nwhat I'd like to do before going into the
Dialogue: 0,0:31:21.62,0:31:25.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situation with one Snowden refugee in Hong\NKong, I'm just going to give you a quick
Dialogue: 0,0:31:25.96,0:31:31.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,update on Vanessa and her daughter, who\Nare now resettled in Montreal. They've had
Dialogue: 0,0:31:31.58,0:31:38.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a hard time of it during the pandemic in\NMontreal. And I've put up a photo from
Dialogue: 0,0:31:38.59,0:31:46.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,September 2020, which really shows, you\Nknow, really projects the feeling, you
Dialogue: 0,0:31:46.77,0:31:53.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, after almost a year of having to\Npractice social distancing and every other
Dialogue: 0,0:31:53.36,0:32:02.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,safe practices so they don't get infected\Nor infect others. A nonprofit, just to
Dialogue: 0,0:32:02.46,0:32:08.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,update everybody, a nonprofit was set up\Nin June 2020. The previous private
Dialogue: 0,0:32:08.36,0:32:16.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sponsors in Montreal had stopped providing\Nsupport to Vanessa and Keana in April
Dialogue: 0,0:32:16.97,0:32:24.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2020, which put this single mom and her\Ndaughter in a terrible situation without
Dialogue: 0,0:32:24.49,0:32:31.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any food or or rent. And the last of the\Nmoney that was provided by the private
Dialogue: 0,0:32:31.88,0:32:38.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sponsor was provided in early May. So as\Nof June, this family had nothing to
Dialogue: 0,0:32:38.17,0:32:45.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,survive on. So I contacted people I know\Nin the Montreal community and they stepped
Dialogue: 0,0:32:45.86,0:32:52.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forward and they set up a nonprofit\Norganization called helpvanessa.com.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:52.26,0:32:56.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oliver Stone, Academy Award winning\Ndirector, Shailene Woodley, who starred in
Dialogue: 0,0:32:56.28,0:33:02.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Snowden film, also an Oliver Stone\Nfilm, stepped forward and advocated to, in
Dialogue: 0,0:33:02.01,0:33:06.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,support and to ask for donations for\NVanessa and her daughter. And today, we've
Dialogue: 0,0:33:06.37,0:33:11.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,raised more than fifty thousand Canadian,\Nwhich now allows Vanessa and her daughter
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.90,0:33:16.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to remain safe and secure during the\Npandemic and also to continue their French
Dialogue: 0,0:33:16.86,0:33:25.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,language studies. And this is a photo of\Nthem in November 2020, last month. And
Dialogue: 0,0:33:25.36,0:33:30.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this was Christmas Eve: Keana is on the\Nleft, Vanessa in the middle. And the third
Dialogue: 0,0:33:30.96,0:33:35.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,person is Minh Tam Tran, who's the founder\Nof the nonprofit "Help Vanessa & Keana".
Dialogue: 0,0:33:35.37,0:33:41.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'd like to quickly mention him. He's the\Nson of a refugee family originally from
Dialogue: 0,0:33:41.00,0:33:46.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Vietnam after the war in 1975, finally\Nresettled in Montreal and he was born in
Dialogue: 0,0:33:46.14,0:33:52.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Montreal. He's a pharmacist and executive\Ndirector of the Association professionelle
Dialogue: 0,0:33:52.54,0:34:00.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,des pharmaciens salariés du Quebec. He\Nfounded the nonprofit "Help Vanessa &
Dialogue: 0,0:34:00.26,0:34:05.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Keana", and he's also founded a new\Nnonprofit called helpajith.com. I'm going
Dialogue: 0,0:34:05.29,0:34:12.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to go into Ajith's situation. This is\N2017. I've put up a photo of Ajith at the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:12.54,0:34:17.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,removal assessment section of the\NImmigration Department, and this was
Dialogue: 0,0:34:17.63,0:34:25.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before, a week before Immigration rejected\NAjith's asylum claims. And just briefly,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:25.31,0:34:30.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ajith was injured in the Civil War,\Nprotecting his fellow soldiers. He was
Dialogue: 0,0:34:30.62,0:34:39.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,denied medical assistance under the Geneva\NConvention by the Sri Lankan army. And he
Dialogue: 0,0:34:39.90,0:34:43.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was put in an untenable situation where\Nhe's looking at losing his life. So he
Dialogue: 0,0:34:43.90,0:34:51.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fled. He was a military deserter. He was\Ncaught a few years later and tortured.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:51.60,0:34:56.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was an attempt to execute him, but\Nhe managed to flee the military camp and
Dialogue: 0,0:34:56.00,0:35:04.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he fled to to Hong Kong in 2003, leaving\Nbehind his wife and a newborn baby girl.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:04.47,0:35:09.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is, I put up a photo of Ajith in\N1993, so you can see the young man that he
Dialogue: 0,0:35:09.84,0:35:20.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was. And in Hong Kong, similar to Ibrahim,\Nthe Somali journalist, from 2003 onward,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:20.16,0:35:24.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ajith has been subjected to systemic\Nracism and discrimination by the Hong Kong
Dialogue: 0,0:35:24.22,0:35:30.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,government and its institutions. He's been\Ndenied sufficient humanitarian assistance
Dialogue: 0,0:35:30.71,0:35:37.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I took on his case in 2012 and he's\Nconstantly been subjected to racial
Dialogue: 0,0:35:37.17,0:35:43.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,profiling, even not showing up to\Nconferences, law conferences that I was
Dialogue: 0,0:35:43.10,0:35:46.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,holding because the police had stopped him\Non the street as he was trying to get to
Dialogue: 0,0:35:46.28,0:35:53.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my office. There's been discrimination by\Nthe, you know, by the police immigration
Dialogue: 0,0:35:53.56,0:35:58.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against him, and also there's been attacks\Nby the government against myself with a
Dialogue: 0,0:35:58.05,0:36:08.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,view of removing me as his lawyer. This is\Na photo of Ajith a couple of years ago,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:08.78,0:36:20.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he's had a very difficult time in Hong\NKong. For 17 years, you know, he was
Dialogue: 0,0:36:20.12,0:36:26.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,subjected, he's been subjected to\Ndiscrimination, as I've described, and all
Dialogue: 0,0:36:26.42,0:36:34.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of this has had an enormously adverse\Nimpact on Ajith and that his mental
Dialogue: 0,0:36:34.94,0:36:40.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,condition has collapsed a number of times.\NAnd he's just wanted to give up. And he's
Dialogue: 0,0:36:40.66,0:36:45.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been what I would describe as a victim of\Nconstructive refoulment. But fortunately,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:45.15,0:36:50.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we were able to convince him and we have\Nrecently tried to get him some help. He's
Dialogue: 0,0:36:50.71,0:36:55.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been suffering from post-traumatic stress\Ndisorder since before he left Sri Lanka.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:55.87,0:37:01.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Untreated. And only recently we've been\Nable to get him a little bit of help.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:01.86,0:37:08.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Going to his role with Mr. Snowden. In\N2013, when Mr. Snowden arrived, Ajith,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:08.19,0:37:11.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,despite all the terrible things that have\Nhappened to him, the persecution, his
Dialogue: 0,0:37:11.57,0:37:16.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discrimination he suffered in Sri Lanka\Nand Hong Kong, he just stepped forward and
Dialogue: 0,0:37:16.57,0:37:27.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was more than willing to help Mr.\NSnowden shelter in 2013. And in 2016,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:27.27,0:37:34.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of Ajith's story coming into the\Npublic domain, the Hong Kong government
Dialogue: 0,0:37:34.54,0:37:41.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,targeted him because of his assistance to\NMr. Snowden and targeted myself. And in
Dialogue: 0,0:37:41.37,0:37:46.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2018, Ajith was left without the support\Nof the duty law service. But myself and
Dialogue: 0,0:37:46.66,0:37:50.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then another lawyer found a solicitor\Nwilling to instruct us privately to
Dialogue: 0,0:37:50.06,0:37:56.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,continue his appeal. Now. In parallel to\Nall of this, I advised Ajith to apply to
Dialogue: 0,0:37:56.87,0:38:04.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Canada for refugee status, private sponsor\Nwas found in Quebec and Ajith's refugee
Dialogue: 0,0:38:04.05,0:38:12.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,claims were filed in January 2017. And\Nwhile all of this was happening, the Sri
Dialogue: 0,0:38:12.08,0:38:17.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lankan police, aware that Ajith is in Hong\NKong, sent police officers to Hong Kong in
Dialogue: 0,0:38:17.08,0:38:24.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,December 2016 looking for him. The Hong\NKong police, instead of investigating the
Dialogue: 0,0:38:24.67,0:38:33.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sri Lankan police, made a decision to\Ninvestigate myself and my client's. Now,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:33.12,0:38:38.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ajith's cases were rejected by immigration\Nin May 2017, and I filed an appeal in the
Dialogue: 0,0:38:38.92,0:38:45.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Torture Claim Appeal Board. And this is a\Nmajor update on Ajith's situation in Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:38:45.94,0:38:52.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong in that his appeal was heard by an\NAustralian adjudicator, a barrister, Adam
Dialogue: 0,0:38:52.52,0:38:58.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Moore, who took up, who was the\Nadjudicator in this case in 2017, heard
Dialogue: 0,0:38:58.10,0:39:04.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his full appeal in June 2018. And no\Ndecision has been handed down in three and
Dialogue: 0,0:39:04.64,0:39:10.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a half years. From 2018 to November this\Nyear, Adam Moore had not handed down a
Dialogue: 0,0:39:10.15,0:39:15.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decision and there is no explanation for\Nthat. And then suddenly in November 2020,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:15.16,0:39:22.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the TCAB announced that Mr Moore was no\Nlonger the adjudicator without giving any
Dialogue: 0,0:39:22.71,0:39:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reason. And now a panel of three\Nadjudicators would hear Ajith's case and
Dialogue: 0,0:39:30.20,0:39:40.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,start that process all over again. This is\Na process that's been delayed and, in my
Dialogue: 0,0:39:40.76,0:39:46.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,view, abused by the Security Bureau and\Nthe Torture Claim Appeal Board. There's no
Dialogue: 0,0:39:46.99,0:39:53.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rational basis why the Torture Claim\NAppeal Board did not hand down a decision
Dialogue: 0,0:39:53.38,0:40:01.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on an Ajith's case years ago. And this is\Nan example of how this part of the
Dialogue: 0,0:40:01.01,0:40:09.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,judiciary, there's a lack of transparency\Nand accountability. And the second
Dialogue: 0,0:40:09.30,0:40:16.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,significant event is that one of the three\Nadjudicators is an Australian adjudicator
Dialogue: 0,0:40:16.14,0:40:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,named Fraser Syme, and he's one of the\Nthree, on the new panel for Ajith's
Dialogue: 0,0:40:21.84,0:40:28.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appeal. Mr. Syme was also the same\Nadjudicator in the appeal of the other
Dialogue: 0,0:40:28.96,0:40:35.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Snowden refugee family of Suppun and\NNadeeka and the two children. And Mr. Syme
Dialogue: 0,0:40:35.65,0:40:41.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rejected their appeals and now the Torture\NClaim Appeal Board has found it proper to
Dialogue: 0,0:40:41.98,0:40:50.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appoint Mr. Syme, who's already\Npredetermined. Decided refugee grounds for
Dialogue: 0,0:40:50.30,0:40:54.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,supporting his family that are the same\Ngrounds for Ajith's case, so there's an
Dialogue: 0,0:40:54.28,0:41:00.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adjudicator on the new TCAB panel, that\Nhas already predetermined the appeal
Dialogue: 0,0:41:00.44,0:41:06.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against Ajith, at least on certain refugee\Ngrounds, so there's an appearance of bias,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:06.28,0:41:12.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's clearly a conflict of interest.\NMaking matters worse is judicial review
Dialogue: 0,0:41:12.52,0:41:18.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,leave application was filed in the high\Ncourt in January 2019, challenging Fraser
Dialogue: 0,0:41:18.52,0:41:23.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Syme's rejection of supporting this\Nfamily's refugee claims. So the Torture
Dialogue: 0,0:41:23.98,0:41:31.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Claim Appeal Board has put in Mr. Syme\Nknowing full well that his decision on the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:31.75,0:41:38.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exact refugee grounds for support and also\NAjith, those common grounds may be
Dialogue: 0,0:41:38.79,0:41:47.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,overturned by the High Court. So it's\Nquite clear with years of delay,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:47.31,0:41:52.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inordinate delay and the removal or\Ndisappearance of Adam Morse, the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:52.11,0:41:59.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,adjudicator, and, you know, the\Nconstitution of a new tribunal after so
Dialogue: 0,0:41:59.87,0:42:05.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,many years with Fraser Syme on there, that\Nhe's not receiving a fair process here, a
Dialogue: 0,0:42:05.43,0:42:16.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fair hearing. Now, in terms of a Ajith's\Nmental health situation, the 2019 pro-
Dialogue: 0,0:42:16.86,0:42:22.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,democracy protests and the police\Ncrackdowns, Ajith saw firsthand how the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.05,0:42:28.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,police were acting arbitrarily and\Nattacking innocent bystanders, protesters
Dialogue: 0,0:42:28.06,0:42:33.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this retraumatized Ajith. These\Nare the same scenes in the same conduct of
Dialogue: 0,0:42:33.01,0:42:40.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,police in Hong Kong that he witnessed in\NSri Lanka when he was in Sri Lanka. The
Dialogue: 0,0:42:40.35,0:42:47.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,new national security law, similar to the\NPrevention of Terrorism Act in Sri Lanka,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:47.17,0:42:54.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is another factor which has traumatized\NAjith and he is in fear for his life.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:54.34,0:42:58.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Making matters worse, there's an\Nimmigration amendment bill that's just
Dialogue: 0,0:42:58.08,0:43:02.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been brought into the legislature and mind\Nyou, the legislature has no opposition.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:02.67,0:43:09.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's basically pro Beijing controlled. And\Nin this new legislation, immigration
Dialogue: 0,0:43:09.06,0:43:13.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,officers will now be able to carry guns\Nand steel batons when dealing with
Dialogue: 0,0:43:13.80,0:43:20.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,refugees. This is simply going to re-\Ntraumatize my client and other refugees.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:20.66,0:43:26.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's now powers to detain asylum\Nseekers, effectively indefinitely, when
Dialogue: 0,0:43:26.08,0:43:31.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're in Hong Kong. There's new\Nprovisions where the immigration officer
Dialogue: 0,0:43:31.64,0:43:35.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will decide effectively if interpreters\Nare needed. And it'll be the immigration
Dialogue: 0,0:43:35.63,0:43:42.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,officer's view whether a person's\Nscreening interviews or appeal should be
Dialogue: 0,0:43:42.03,0:43:49.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conducted without an interpreter. The\Nother issue that is shocking, in my view,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:49.32,0:43:53.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is after the first stage of immigration\Nscreening, if the cases are rejected,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.77,0:43:59.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are now powers for immigration\Nofficers to go to foreign consulates to
Dialogue: 0,0:43:59.16,0:44:05.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,obtain to start the process of obtaining\Ntravel documents. That should never happen
Dialogue: 0,0:44:05.64,0:44:12.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,until after all appeals are exhausted. So\Nwhat's happening is that all these asylum
Dialogue: 0,0:44:12.73,0:44:16.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seekers, contrary to U.N. guidelines,\Ntheir identities are being exposed at the
Dialogue: 0,0:44:16.59,0:44:25.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first stage to foreign governments that\Nthey fled from, fled persecution from.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:25.50,0:44:30.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Usually, a hearing could not be held\Nbefore 28 days in the Torture Claim Appeal
Dialogue: 0,0:44:30.31,0:44:38.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Board. Now, the limit is seven days, which\Nagain... Now, how do I view all of all of
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.58,0:44:45.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these changes to the immigration\Nlegislation? It's just a legislative and
Dialogue: 0,0:44:45.01,0:44:50.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,policy framework that is going to put more\Npressure on asylum seekers and it
Dialogue: 0,0:44:50.73,0:44:57.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,violates, in my view, the doctrine of\Nconstructive refoulment, where we've set
Dialogue: 0,0:44:57.81,0:45:04.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up, Minh Tam Tran in Montreal set up the\Nnonprofit helpajith.com and we're asking
Dialogue: 0,0:45:04.63,0:45:09.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for donations. Ajith needs support. During\Nthis time he is waiting, as with the other
Dialogue: 0,0:45:09.89,0:45:14.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Snowden refugees, the outcomes of their\Nasylum cases in Canada. But pending that
Dialogue: 0,0:45:14.05,0:45:20.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,time, Ajith needs help. And we'd ask that\Nif you can go to the website and donate.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:20.34,0:45:24.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, no matter how big or small the\Ndonations are, Ajith needs help. Thank
Dialogue: 0,0:45:24.91,0:45:29.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you.\NIbrahim Al Hussein: Hi, everyone, my name
Dialogue: 0,0:45:29.82,0:45:35.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is Ibrahim Al Hussein, I would have said\NI'm a journalist from Somalia, but the
Dialogue: 0,0:45:35.87,0:45:43.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Somali government and al-Shabaab targeted\Nme. I had been kidnaped and tortured. The
Dialogue: 0,0:45:43.25,0:45:50.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reason I was not killed is because of my\Nfamily and friends bid ransom money to
Dialogue: 0,0:45:50.74,0:45:59.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,spend my life. I flew to Hong Kong only to\Nbe treated like a criminal and subjected
Dialogue: 0,0:45:59.75,0:46:08.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to racism as I lived in a poverty degraded\Nand treated inhumanly. My life in Hong
Dialogue: 0,0:46:08.35,0:46:16.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kong was like a slow death. I was sent\Nback to Somalia and once again had to run
Dialogue: 0,0:46:16.71,0:46:26.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for my life and could not even see my\Nfamily. I then found my way to Europe and
Dialogue: 0,0:46:26.59,0:46:36.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Greece. I found myself in two refugee\Ncamps fighting again to survive. The
Dialogue: 0,0:46:36.21,0:46:43.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communites were inhuman and degrading.\NMany refugees were violently injured and
Dialogue: 0,0:46:43.58,0:46:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,killed inside the camp. What saved me was\Nthe refugee screening, which proceeded
Dialogue: 0,0:46:51.77,0:47:00.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rapidly. Human rights in Hong Kong do not\Nexist for refugees, but I was lucky to
Dialogue: 0,0:47:00.86,0:47:08.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a human rights lawyer, Mister Robert\NTibbo. Without his help, I would not be
Dialogue: 0,0:47:08.25,0:47:13.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here today. Thank you very much, guys.\NVanessa: I know about Ajith's torture
Dialogue: 0,0:47:13.78,0:47:19.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,claim appeal in Hong Kong has been for\Nthree and a half years, and I know that
Dialogue: 0,0:47:19.88,0:47:24.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the adjudicator of police appeal has\Ndisappeared and there is no decision in
Dialogue: 0,0:47:24.75,0:47:30.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his appeal after three and a half years. I\Nknow that the appeal board is now starting
Dialogue: 0,0:47:30.43,0:47:37.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his appeal, start all over again. Now with\Nthe three judges hearing his appeal, I
Dialogue: 0,0:47:37.15,0:47:43.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think this is so {\i1}incomprehensible{\i0} to\NAjith. He has waiting for 17 years for his
Dialogue: 0,0:47:43.01,0:47:49.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,case to be decided. After almost four\Nyears, the appeal process him to start all
Dialogue: 0,0:47:49.65,0:47:56.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over again. Is the Hong Kong government\Ncausing all this delay? From my own
Dialogue: 0,0:47:56.38,0:48:04.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,experience in Hong Kong appeal boards, the\Njudge was unfair and I feeled traumatized.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:04.18,0:48:11.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For Ajith, to again, have to go through,\Nanother appeal will be a real trauma for
Dialogue: 0,0:48:11.64,0:48:23.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,him. He will be forced to dare historical\Nexperience again. And it will give him
Dialogue: 0,0:48:23.42,0:48:28.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nightmare.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:28.58,0:48:32.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: This is WTF International and you\Nhave just seen a recording by Robert
Dialogue: 0,0:48:32.40,0:48:39.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Tibbo, who is the lawyer of Edward\NSnowden, and he's now connected. Hello,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:39.86,0:48:43.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mister Tibbo!.\NRobert Tibbo: Welcome. Thank you for
Dialogue: 0,0:48:43.72,0:48:49.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having me here. One thing I had failed to\Nmention in the prerecorded video
Dialogue: 0,0:48:49.22,0:48:53.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussion is that two of my clients would\Nhave done short videos to introduce
Dialogue: 0,0:48:53.52,0:49:03.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,themselves to the public. So one thing I'd\Nlike to just mention here, as I mentioned
Dialogue: 0,0:49:03.88,0:49:09.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the end of the video, is that Ajith is\Nstill in Hong Kong, one of the Snowden
Dialogue: 0,0:49:09.36,0:49:15.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,refugees who protected Mr. Snowden when he\Nwas in Hong Kong in 2013. And he does need
Dialogue: 0,0:49:15.37,0:49:20.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,help. And one way you can\Nhelp is by donations.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:20.56,0:49:26.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: All right, thanks for the... We\Nare now taking questions for Mr. Tibbo,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:26.39,0:49:35.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have several over... Q&A during our\Nlive program. Some of you have asked us...
Dialogue: 0,0:49:35.24,0:49:39.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if you go into the streaming window\Nbelow that, you've got several tabs,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:39.78,0:49:48.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one... the chat window. And if you click\Non that, you can see the hashtag, #R...
Dialogue: 0,0:49:48.22,0:49:53.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which we'll monitor on Mastodon and\NTwitter. And you can also join the... on
Dialogue: 0,0:49:53.12,0:50:01.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hackend and the IRC. So far, there haven't\Nbeen any questions in... the shell, but
Dialogue: 0,0:50:01.21,0:50:07.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mr. Tibbo, are there any other ways... and\Nwatchers who have just seen what you've
Dialogue: 0,0:50:07.51,0:50:13.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presented them and the very personal\Nmessages by ... voice is heard in order to
Dialogue: 0,0:50:13.55,0:50:20.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,foster the cases of those people, you...\NRobert: Yes, as I mentioned, the primary
Dialogue: 0,0:50:20.75,0:50:26.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way to support my clients, in particular\NAjith at this time, is to is to make
Dialogue: 0,0:50:26.44,0:50:34.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,donations. There's a website,\Nhelpajith.com, where you can make
Dialogue: 0,0:50:34.54,0:50:43.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,donations various ways, from credit card\Nto bitcoin. The other issue is awareness
Dialogue: 0,0:50:43.22,0:50:48.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and discussion. There's a lot of talk\Nabout, you know, the role of
Dialogue: 0,0:50:48.04,0:50:55.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whistleblowers, particularly in today's\Nworld. But there's been less talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:50:55.66,0:51:00.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the protection of whistleblowers and the\NSnowden refugees did the extraordinary by
Dialogue: 0,0:51:00.03,0:51:06.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stepping forward, making their decisions\Nof conscience to provide shelter and food
Dialogue: 0,0:51:06.71,0:51:15.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and compassion to Mr. Snowden when he was\Nin Hong Kong in 2013. And in all the
Dialogue: 0,0:51:15.53,0:51:21.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Snowden refugees cases, one of the grounds\Nfor refugee protection is the clients have
Dialogue: 0,0:51:21.92,0:51:27.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a well-founded fear of persecution based\Non political opinion and that they make
Dialogue: 0,0:51:27.29,0:51:35.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decisions to help Mr. Snowden. And so that\Nforms a social group, those who help or
Dialogue: 0,0:51:35.39,0:51:39.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protect whistleblowers. And I think that,\Nyou know, there needs to be more
Dialogue: 0,0:51:39.64,0:51:47.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussion about the importance of people\Nin society who... and the courage that it
Dialogue: 0,0:51:47.85,0:51:52.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,takes to step forward and to help\Nsomebody, particularly for high profile
Dialogue: 0,0:51:52.00,0:52:01.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cases. It's easy to help somebody or a\Ngroup of people when it's a popular person
Dialogue: 0,0:52:01.70,0:52:07.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or a popular cause or if it's a low\Nprofile cause. But it's extremely difficult
Dialogue: 0,0:52:07.41,0:52:14.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for an individual to step forward to help\Nanother when even though the cause is the
Dialogue: 0,0:52:14.11,0:52:22.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most just cause. But it's unpopular. So\Nthere are legal and moral and ethical
Dialogue: 0,0:52:22.65,0:52:27.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issues, and I think that should be part of\Nthe discussion that everyone should be
Dialogue: 0,0:52:27.24,0:52:30.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having.\NHerald: Thank you for that, and there's
Dialogue: 0,0:52:30.82,0:52:37.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been the question on the chat, which I\Nneed to rephrase, because... The question
Dialogue: 0,0:52:37.01,0:52:43.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is how to build a global consciousness\Nagainst... and to to join up forces both
Dialogue: 0,0:52:43.99,0:52:52.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from a lawyerly and scholarly... groups\Nthat believe more in direct action.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:52.75,0:52:56.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Robert Tibbo: You'll have to repeat that\Nagain, the signal came through a bit
Dialogue: 0,0:52:56.88,0:53:00.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,choppy.\NHerald: Question on the chat, whether
Dialogue: 0,0:53:00.95,0:53:07.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's any efforts to build a global kind\Nof state oppression, more or less, and
Dialogue: 0,0:53:07.54,0:53:14.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coordinate between teams that take a\Nmore... steadily more direct action.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:14.66,0:53:21.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Robert Tibbo: I think what's happening is\Nyou're seeing this kind of action with
Dialogue: 0,0:53:21.34,0:53:30.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nonprofits, lawyers through protests, and\Nyou're seeing it within communities,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:30.52,0:53:37.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,within cities, within whole jurisdictions.\NBut I think what's happened with the covid
Dialogue: 0,0:53:37.24,0:53:44.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,situation is that's basically compelled\Neverybody because of the public health
Dialogue: 0,0:53:44.18,0:53:50.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,issues, self-isolating, social distancing,\Nmasks, we've had to take a step back to
Dialogue: 0,0:53:50.63,0:53:54.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think, OK, how do we communicate now? How\Ndo we interact and exercise our
Dialogue: 0,0:53:54.53,0:54:00.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fundamental rights and freedoms? So I\Nthink we're in a dangerous period where,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:00.13,0:54:08.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, we're still struggling how to\Nconnect globally to cooperate and bring
Dialogue: 0,0:54:08.05,0:54:13.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this kind of awareness about. The second\Nissue is to do that, you need to be able
Dialogue: 0,0:54:13.25,0:54:19.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to get the message out through advocacy\Nand activism. Right now that the covid
Dialogue: 0,0:54:19.56,0:54:26.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pandemic consumes the media reports. I've\Nbeen told about 75% or 85% of the news
Dialogue: 0,0:54:26.29,0:54:34.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coverage in a given media organization,75%\Nto 85%. At the same time, governments are
Dialogue: 0,0:54:34.54,0:54:39.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using the cover of covid, the global\Npandemic, to suppress freedom of
Dialogue: 0,0:54:39.47,0:54:46.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,expression and to strip away fundamental\Nrights and freedoms. So I think the
Dialogue: 0,0:54:46.07,0:54:50.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,question is a great question, and I think\Nit's a matter of... you know, when doing
Dialogue: 0,0:54:50.74,0:54:54.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this through encrypted means, doing it\Nwhere you have your privacy for global
Dialogue: 0,0:54:54.44,0:54:57.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,groups to consider. How do we connect up\Ntogether, what messages we want to get
Dialogue: 0,0:54:57.89,0:55:04.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out? But then the real challenge will be\Ngetting the message out through to the public
Dialogue: 0,0:55:04.24,0:55:11.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of the current global pandemic.\NHerald: Are there already... to go ahead
Dialogue: 0,0:55:11.98,0:55:20.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and prepare all the messaging to come out\Nof the pandemic if and when the...
Dialogue: 0,0:55:20.35,0:55:26.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Robert Tibbo: As far like I'm not aware of\Nany concerted efforts globally, I mean,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:26.57,0:55:31.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are some non-profits around the\Nworld who are trying to get messages out
Dialogue: 0,0:55:31.93,0:55:36.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or trying to get stakeholders so those\Naffected in different jurisdictions. But
Dialogue: 0,0:55:36.15,0:55:47.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right now, I'm not aware of any organized,\Nconcerted effort to to try to have this
Dialogue: 0,0:55:47.41,0:55:55.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of global connection and being able\Nto speak globally, but also locally, you
Dialogue: 0,0:55:55.34,0:56:01.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, informing the global community\Nwhat's going on. I think we are, it's just
Dialogue: 0,0:56:01.72,0:56:09.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a difficult time. One of the best examples\Nis Hong Kong with the covid pandemic
Dialogue: 0,0:56:09.85,0:56:14.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there. There's been four waves. And in the\Nmidst of the second wave of the pandemic
Dialogue: 0,0:56:14.81,0:56:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Hong Kong, Beijing imposed a new\Nnational security law, which basically has
Dialogue: 0,0:56:19.92,0:56:26.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stripped away fundamental rights and\Nfreedom of expression. So I think we're
Dialogue: 0,0:56:26.67,0:56:29.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just in a difficult time and it's going to\Nbe for different groups around the world
Dialogue: 0,0:56:29.78,0:56:37.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to figure out how to communicate.\NHopefully the pandemic will come to an end
Dialogue: 0,0:56:37.23,0:56:43.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the end of this year or next year and\Nwe'll see where we go from there.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:43.91,0:56:46.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: There's one more question from the\Nchat, and I think it's a softball pitch,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:46.70,0:56:53.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more or less... Free, autonomous press,\Nfree autonomous media as in decentralized,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:53.61,0:57:03.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably... of getting the message out.\NRobert Tibbo: The signal is a bit choppy,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:03.43,0:57:07.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I missed the middle of your question, if\Nyou could repeat it.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:07.79,0:57:14.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Ok. Would you say that a free and\Nautonomous press, autonomous media...
Dialogue: 0,0:57:14.39,0:57:18.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decentralized, probably unsensible would\Nbe a cornerstone of getting the message
Dialogue: 0,0:57:18.57,0:57:24.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out?\NRobert Tibbo: Absolutely. One thing that
Dialogue: 0,0:57:24.58,0:57:32.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've talked about in past talks is that\Ntwo things have happened, are happening at
Dialogue: 0,0:57:32.87,0:57:41.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this time and have been happening over the\Nlast decade. And that is journalism has,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:41.93,0:57:47.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mainstream journalism is being eroded,\Ninvestigative journalists are few in
Dialogue: 0,0:57:47.30,0:57:52.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,number today, and journalism has become\Nmore centralized in major urban centers.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:52.54,0:57:59.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in smaller cities, towns, rural areas,\Nthere is no more journalism there at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:59.91,0:58:06.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In a lot of regions around the world. And\Nwhen those things happen, you have poor
Dialogue: 0,0:58:06.69,0:58:14.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,behavior of local government in terms of\Npolicies and public expenditure and also
Dialogue: 0,0:58:14.19,0:58:22.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,abuses of human rights. We are really in\Ndesperate need of having independent,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:22.62,0:58:30.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,autonomous journalists and journalism at\Nthis time, more than ever. But at the same
Dialogue: 0,0:58:30.65,0:58:37.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,time, journalists who have the capacity\Nand capability to do investigative
Dialogue: 0,0:58:37.58,0:58:45.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,journalism. You know, the problem what's\Nbeen happening the last five years, 10
Dialogue: 0,0:58:45.37,0:58:53.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,years, is that the media that's centered\Nin the major urban centers, they're not
Dialogue: 0,0:58:53.23,0:58:56.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,picking up stories and speaking for the\Nmore vulnerable or those who are
Dialogue: 0,0:58:56.76,0:59:00.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,geographically outside of the main areas.\NAnd that's a very dangerous thing. So,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:00.90,0:59:06.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yes, I agree there should be more\Nautonomous media and there should not be
Dialogue: 0,0:59:06.60,0:59:11.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,censoring on that media.\NHerald: So, in fact, if you if you look at
Dialogue: 0,0:59:11.78,0:59:17.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that, I mean, encrypted communication is\Nwell and everybody should use it
Dialogue: 0,0:59:17.58,0:59:23.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially to exchange information with\Njournalists. But in the end, for the
Dialogue: 0,0:59:23.25,0:59:31.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,general public, independent media that is\Nnot centralized in some few conglomerates
Dialogue: 0,0:59:31.63,0:59:35.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might even be more efficient to get the\Nmessage out to the broader masses, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:59:35.76,0:59:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Robert Tibbo: Absolutely. I think what\Nneeds to be done is you need more
Dialogue: 0,0:59:40.64,0:59:45.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,autonomous journalism and journalists in\Nsmaller cities operating autonomously, in
Dialogue: 0,0:59:45.97,0:59:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the bigger cities, to be able to pick up\Nstories. What you're seeing right now with
Dialogue: 0,0:59:53.60,0:59:58.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the mainstream media focusing on covid\Nstories, for example, the US elections and
Dialogue: 0,0:59:58.18,1:00:02.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Donald Trump are that they're not picking\Nup smaller stories. They're not picking up
Dialogue: 0,1:00:02.79,1:00:07.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,low profile stories anymore. And\Ngovernments are taking advantage of that.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:07.80,1:00:12.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They know that they can act almost with\Nimpunity because they know that the
Dialogue: 0,1:00:12.22,1:00:18.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,smaller stories where somebody in your\Ncommunities, fundamental rights are being
Dialogue: 0,1:00:18.03,1:00:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,violated by the government or local\Nauthorities, it's not going to get
Dialogue: 0,1:00:20.96,1:00:27.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reported at this time. When the pandemic\Nis over, the situation will be the same.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:27.08,1:00:32.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a lack of independent autonomous\Njournalists. One of the big problems is
Dialogue: 0,1:00:32.92,1:00:39.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,money. A lot of the money that used to go\Ninto advertising for mainstream media,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:39.59,1:00:43.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even local newspapers, is now going\Nonline. People are spending their time
Dialogue: 0,1:00:43.76,1:00:49.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at online media that has nothing\Nto do with their local communities or even
Dialogue: 0,1:00:49.77,1:00:55.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their countries. People are spending their\Ntime on YouTube and Facebook, TikTok is
Dialogue: 0,1:00:55.75,1:01:01.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another example where all the advertising\Nis going. So we have a situation where
Dialogue: 0,1:01:01.32,1:01:08.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enormous amounts of money are going to\Nonly certain media, some of the
Dialogue: 0,1:01:08.26,1:01:16.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mainstream, a lot of it to social\Nentertainment online and infotainment. And
Dialogue: 0,1:01:16.49,1:01:21.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the money is disappearing from that. Money\Nis disappearing and it's having an impact
Dialogue: 0,1:01:21.06,1:01:25.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on two things. One is the funding of\Ninvestigative journalism. Number two,
Dialogue: 0,1:01:25.93,1:01:32.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being able to find and support autonomous\Nlocal media in smaller cities, towns and
Dialogue: 0,1:01:32.65,1:01:38.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rural areas. And I've seen that here in\NNorth America. And I know the same thing's
Dialogue: 0,1:01:38.26,1:01:43.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been happening in Europe and also\Nin Australia, New Zealand.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:43.32,1:01:48.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Alrighty, so this means subscribing\Nto your local small town newspaper might
Dialogue: 0,1:01:48.84,1:01:57.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be even as well as a step in joining the\Nrevolution as using encrypted messaging.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:57.50,1:02:01.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Robert Tibbo: Absolutely. It's got to be a\Ngrassroots effort from the ground up.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:01.73,1:02:06.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Everybody can take their part. We\Ndo not have a stage, so you have to
Dialogue: 0,1:02:06.02,1:02:10.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,imagine the applause that you're getting\Nvia IRC right now. Thank you again so much
Dialogue: 0,1:02:10.63,1:02:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for being with us, Robert Tibbo.\NRobert Tibbo: Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:14.88,1:02:17.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}Abspannmusik{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:02:17.72,1:02:25.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2021. Join, and help us!