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Herald: We're very happy to have Robert
Tibbo with us on the channel for his fifth
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year in a row here, speaking at the Chaos
Communication Congress. Today's lecture,
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Robert Tibbo, you probably know him as a
lawyer involved in the Snowden case. His
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lecture today is called The Continued
Erosion of International Law and Human
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Rights and a Global Pandemic. And and,
yeah, let's hear it. And we will be here
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later for Q&A.
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Robert Tibbo: Good evening. I'd like to
thank the Computer Chaos Congress again
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for having me speak at the convention this
year, even though due to the global
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pandemic, it's by remote. But as you may
be aware, I'm the lawyer for the snowden
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refugees. And also I'm introducing another
one of my clients, Ibraham Hussein, who is
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a refugee and journalist from Somalia. And
just to inform anyone who's unaware at
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this stage, the Snowden refugees were a
group of refugees from South and Southeast
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Asia who provided shelter, food and
compassion and humanity to Edward Snowden
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when he was in Hong Kong in 2013, when Mr.
Snowden made the disclosures on the NSA's
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electronic mass surveillance program. And
also to provide an update on my role as a
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lawyer for the Snowden refugees, I
continue to act for them as a barrister in
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their Hong Kong cases. And within Canada,
I was granted special authorization to act
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for the Snowden refugees who still have
refugee claims at the Canadian government.
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And just briefly, I have a slide up with
the Snowden refugees sitting together in
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Hong Kong, on the left side is Vanessa.
She's from the Philippines. Her daughter
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is below her, that's Keana, born in Hong
Kong, stateless, and is still stateless
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today. Beside Vanessa is Ajith, the former
soldier from Sri Lanka. And beside him is
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the family of four: Nadeeka, Supun, both
from Sri Lanka, and their two children,
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Sethumdi and Dinath , also born in Hong
Kong, stateless. Out of the seven Snowden
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refugees, two of them actually succeeded
in their cases in 2019 and this is a photo
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I have of myself meeting with Vanessa and
Keana at Pearson International Airport,
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Toronto on March 24th, 2019. A year ago, I
talked about the decline in human rights
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around the globe. Nothing has changed
since a year ago. And with the Covid-19
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global pandemic, things have just gotten a
lot worse. Governments have been
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empowered, emboldened to continue to
attack those who dissent, who are critical
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of government around the world. And what
has made matters worse are the people's
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inability to go out and exercise their
right to freedom of expression,
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association and assembly and protests
because of covid and for public safety
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reasons. And the government has used that
to their advantage to abuse civilians in
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society. The media as well has been
consumed, in my view, by the global
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pandemic, as well as other significant
global news stories such as the US
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elections and Donald Trump. What this has
done is it's taken the media away,
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journalists away from other important
human rights stories around the world. So
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those whose cases are, the circumstances
are not high profile. A lot of these
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stories are not being reported anymore.
They're not being investigated anymore,
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which is adding to governments being aware
that they can continue to commit human
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rights violations around the world with
impunity. Now, I have a client a region
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from Somalia. He's a journalist and I'm
introducing him to the public in this
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presentation because he fled persecution
as a journalist in Somalia and he found
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himself in Hong Kong for a period of time
in an untenable situation and had later
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found his way to the European Union to
seek refugee status there. And I'd like to
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go into that. And basically, Mr. Ibrahim
had covered news stories in Mogadishu and
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across Somalia. And he was targeted by
both the government and al-Shabaab. It was
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a situation that he... and there's two
quotes here which I'll read out, which
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really encapsulate the circumstances on
the ground. Ibrahim has stated: In the
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morning, we hugged our family like we
might never see them again, because every
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day in Mogadishu, journalists may be
killed in the crossfire or murdered by al-
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Shabaab. And he also stated: For a big
story, we would bring two or three
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cameramen to record the scene together in
case one was wounded or shot. As the
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lawyer for Ibrahim, I've actually seen
footage that they've recorded of, you
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know, people on the front lines there with
being shot dead and. This is a horrific
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situation for any journalist to be in and
to report in. The situation for Ibrahim
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came to a crossroads in 2009 when he was
kidnaped by al-Shabab. He'd been targeted
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by the government as well, the police and
also officers at the Ministry of
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Information and Culture. But it was al-
Shabab who grabbed him, tortured him,
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threatened him, threatened to kill him
with a knife, gun to his head and demanded
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a ransom of 18000 US $, which fortunately
his family was able to secure. And after
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six days as a hostage, he was released.
Now, Ibrahim had worked for universal
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television in Somalia during two periods
and he had fled Somalia for a period of
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time to try to find refuge in another part
of of Africa, which didn't work and then
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tried again where he found himself in
South Sudan, which was, there was no
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durable solution there for him. So in
September 2013, he fled to Hong Kong and
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he sought asylum there. His thinking was
that Hong Kong had a reputation of
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civility and rule of law. But upon his
arrival, he, you know, he realized that he
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had been seriously mistaken. Immediately,
he was arrested and detained at the Castle
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Peak Bay Immigration Center for short. We
call that CIC and it's basically Hong
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Kong's version of a gulag. And there's an
award winning human rights story by Olivia
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Chang from Hong Kong called The Invisible
Wall. I provided the link on the slides.
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So you'll be able to to read an English
version of that story. Now, after being
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locked up for three months, he was
released on recognizance, which is, I
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mean, it's provided with a paper that
typically foreign criminals are provided
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with. And on the outside, he faced
destitution and racial discrimination. And
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he was constantly racially profiled by the
police, stopped all the time, threatened
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and Hong Kong society itself just
basically ignored him. It's like, it's as
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if he didn't exist. He had no food or
money for the five months after he had
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been released from Detention and
International Social Services, the Swiss
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organization with a branch in Hong Kong,
provides humanitarian assistance as a
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contractor for the Hong Kong Social
Welfare Department. But still, for five
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months, he was destitute. No food and no
money. And in 2013, on my slide there is
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an error, it is 2014, but in late 2013,
Ibrahim showed up at my office with
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another one of his colleagues who had
worked for him in Somalia. And they were
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wearing bedroom slippers and used clothing
and they were starving. And I immediately
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took up their cases with the UNHCR in Hong
Kong. And subsequent to that meeting in my
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office, my wife took both of them down to
out of her own pocket to purchase shoes
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for them, running shoes and also to buy
them some food. Now, he is what I would
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describe as a victim of constructive
refoulment, and I'm going to go into the
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law on that in a few minutes. But
basically, the Hong Kong government has a
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legal policy framework that's designed to
break down the mental health and physical
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health of asylum seekers, basically
through social isolation and deprivation
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of sufficient humanitarian assistance so
that they don't starve. And he described a
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situation a few days ago looking back:
After the asylum seeking community
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protested and occupied social welfare and
international social services offices in
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2013, protesting not having enough food or
rent money to survive, I felt like my mind
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was breaking. I felt I would die in Hong
Kong. Ibrahim's mental and physical health
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declined in Hong Kong to the point where
it was a choice between not surviving in
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Hong Kong or, you know, trying to get to
another country. The South China Morning
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Post reported his situation as a
journalist and reporter stated: An
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experience of the worst in humanity was
not what Ibrahim Mohammed Hussein expected
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when he touched down in Hong Kong eight
months ago, fresh from persecution in
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Africa. Now, I mentioned Constructive
Refoulment, and this is a framework and a
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strategy that's implemented by the Hong
Kong government and professors at Chinese
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University have described it as follows:
given that a necessary consequence of the
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government's policies is social exclusion
and destitution, there are major concerns,
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particularly for the mental health of
refugees. This is especially the case
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because refugees stranded in the territory
faced indefinite periods while claims are
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processed, all the while plagued by
uncertainty. Such concerns not only raise
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the issues of compatibility with the
ICESCR and ICCPR, but also place the
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individual concerned at risk of returning
to the source of danger, thus offending
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the doctrine of constructive refoulment.
So Hong Kong has prohibited from returning
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anybody who is seeking asylum in Hong Kong
until after the cases are screened and
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rejected. But the Hong Kong government in
parallel with, you know, with that policy
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that they have to follow the law, they
have to follow to screen refugees or
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asylum seekers, is they make their lives
so miserable, so difficult, that these
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asylum seekers' mental health deteriorates
to the point where they give up and they
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they would rather return home to die
there. Ibrahim left Hong Kong, but under
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international law and Hong Kong's
policies, they sent him back to Somalia.
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He was quickly targeted again and over a
number of years, he sought internal flight
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relocation alternatives within Somalia. It
didn't work. And then he finally left
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Somalia and found his way to the European
Union, ending up in Greece. The first camp
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he was put in was the Moria refugee camp,
which Ibrahim describes as a place of
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violence. There was violence on a daily
basis. There was a lack of resources,
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food. The conditions were inhuman and
degrading. And Ibrahim himself and the
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people in his makeshift structure where
they stayed, were attacked on seven
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occasions during that time. And the other
thing that Ibrahim has stated is that the
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police just stood by and watched. They
allowed that to happen. They acquiesce to
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the violence against other refugees. And
the plus side of Ibrahim making it to the
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European Union, was there was a screening
process that proceeded quickly compared to
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Hong Kong. And the second plus is that the
screening system in the European Union
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countries actually grants refugees status
if they can make their case that they have
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a well-founded fear of persecution. In
Hong Kong, the acceptance rate was zero
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and Hong Kong not being a signatory to the
UN convention relating to the Status of
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Refugees. You know, even if you succeeded,
you could not obtain refugee status in
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Hong Kong and you could not resettle
there. And this is a picture of Ibrahim at
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the Moria refugee camp, there was an arson
and a large fire at the camp, which left
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him five days on the streets outside the
camp, and then he would be sent to the
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Lesbos refugee camp thereafter. Now, with
his acceptance as a refugee in June 2020,
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he was still stuck in the camp. And here's
another photo of Ibrahim when he went to
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the Lesbos camp. There are no toilets, now
showers, lack of resources and in late
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2020, the Greek government moved, allowed
Ibrahim to leave the camps, and he's now
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living in a Greek community, supported
only for a limited period of time by the
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government. In January 2021, mistake on my
slide - 2020 should be 2021 - he'll have
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to fend for himself. And I've brought up,
introduced Ibraham here to everybody today
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because he's been in both Hong Kong and
he's found his way to the European Union.
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There are serious problems on both sides
of the globe, but he is grateful that the
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proper screening is apparently happening
in the European Union and he's now safe.
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In my view, he's an extraordinary person,
extraordinary journalist, and there are
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very few journalists like this on the
planet with his commitment and willingness
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to have taken the risks, risking his life
to report, do reporting in Somalia.
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Ibrahim would like to continue working as
a journalist again. He's just slamming on
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his feet in Greece right now and waiting
for his formal documents, all his formal
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documents to be issued. But he's looking
to continue to work as a journalist. Now,
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I'm going to go, I'm going back to Hong
Kong and I'm going to be returning to the
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Snowden refugees, but I'd like to provide a
quick update on what's happening in Hong
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Kong. And the slide I have up here now
basically shows from 2014 to 2019, the
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rapid decline in human rights in Hong Kong
and in particular, rendition, enforced
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disappearances, ill-treatment, torture,
and even attempted extrajudicial killings.
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And from 2004 to 2019, you know, Hong Kong
has become authoritarian. And to review
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what happened last year, Carrie Lam, the
chief executive of Hong Kong, had wanted
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to bring in an act into law, an
extradition bill which would allow
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rendition of individuals from Hong Kong
into mainland China. There would have been
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a formal legal mechanism to do that. Hong
Kong people and lawyers in Hong Kong are
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very well aware that mainland China
judiciary is not independent. It's like
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any other government department under the
executive, it's policy and politically
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motivated in terms of how judges in
mainland China try criminal cases, due
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process rights are limited in China and
the Chinese criminal justice system and at
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times do not exist. And I'm going to
mention the case of Michael Spayor or
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Michael Kovrig, two Canadians who were
detained in December 2018. Innocent
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Canadians who have done nothing wrong,
arbitrarily arrested, detained, and this
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year, earlier this year, charged with
crimes in mainland China and the mainland
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Chinese government has effectively
admitted that they've, they're holding the
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two Canadians hostage as a bargaining chip
to pressure the Canadian government to
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bring an end to the extradition
proceedings against Meng Wanzhou of the
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hallway Chinese telecom group. Out of
significance, so I'm mentioning this
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because the two Michael's cases in China
highlight, you know, the deficiencies, the
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clear deficiencies and shortcomings of the
criminal justice system in China. In Hong
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Kong, people, you know, were not prepared
to accept that they would face justice or
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accused of a crime and have to go through
a criminal justice system in China,
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mainland China. So protests broke out.
People in the millions went in the streets
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from June 19 2019, onward. And it was in
September 2019 that Carrie Lam, the chief
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executive of Hong Kong, announced that the
extradition bill would be withdrawn. So
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that was a great success. Now, with
Covid-19, human rights violations in Hong
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Kong have just continued on and they've
become worse, and the Hong Kong government
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recognizing that millions of people would
not be going out into the streets to
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protest under Covid-19 because nobody,
everybody understood this is a public,
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serious public health risk and people
don't want to get sick. So there are
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limited protests, but Hong Kong and
Beijing calculated that you wouldn't have
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the millions of people on the streets. And
they introduced a bill, no Beijing
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actually did this through their own
legislature, enacting a constitutional
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provision under the new net under Article
23 of the Hong Kong Basic Law, which is
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Hong Kong's constitution, basically
bringing in new crimes against the state.
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And I've put in the slide those crimes:
secession, subversion, terrorism,
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collusion with foreign forces. That
legislation is a constitutional provision.
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It's ambiguous, it's poorly written, and
it can be interpreted in a way, because of
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its ambiguity, interpreted and used in an
arbitrary way and used to violate the
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rights of any civilian in Hong Kong. I'm
going to go into the scope of this law. If
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one is arrested, if a person is arrested
under the new national security law,
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there's no presumption of bail anymore.
The defendant actually has the burden of
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proof on them to seek bail. Indefinite
detention. If bail is not granted, that
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person could be sitting in remand in a
jail for months or years before trial. The
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trials are going to be held behind closed
doors. The judges are actually selected by
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the executive branch of government. They
select judges from the judiciary. But it's
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not the chief justice of the Hong Kong
court. That choose selects the judges to
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be on that list that the government
chooses. In this law, anyone is accused of
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a national security fence under Hong
Kong's basic law can be renditioned to
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mainland China to face justice there. So
what the Hong Kong authorities were not
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able to achieve in 2019, they've now,
Beijing has now achieved so that anybody
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in Hong Kong who is accused of committing
a national security crime can be brought
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into mainland China and face justice
there. Extraterritorial criminality.
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Anybody who writes something, says
something, does something that is critical
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of the Hong Kong government. If the Hong
Kong authorities feel that this is an act
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of secession or subversion, they can seek
the extradition of that person, let's say,
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in Canada or in Germany or another
country. So this new national security law
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has a global reach. Consequence of this is
countries in Europe, including Germany,
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the United States, Canada, New Zealand,
the U.K., Australia, have all either
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suspended or terminated the extradition
agreements, treaties that they have with
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Hong Kong. The reason being is the new
national security law is a de facto
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backdoor for Beijing to extradite people
from around the world. Very few countries
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have extradition treaties with mainland
China because of the shortcomings in its
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criminal justice system. And then I've put
up a slide just listing a few countries
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that have suspended treaties. And now,
within the Hong Kong legal government
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itself, three branches of government, the
executive branch, legislative and
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judiciary, it's quite clear that Beijing
now has firm control over the executive
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branch of government. Carrie Lam, you
know, loyal to Beijing, you know,
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following through on directions from
Beijing. Also in 2020, we saw officers
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from mainland China now working in Hong
Kong side by side with Hong Kong civil
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servants and basically advising and
directing the legislature. A number of
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pro-democracy legislators were removed
actually by Beijing and new legislation
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was imposed by Beijing that anyone who is
viewed as a risk to national security
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without trial can be removed from the
legislature. They were supposed to be
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elections for the legislature in earlier
this year. They were canceled because of
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Covid. And with the new law imposed by
Beijing, there was a mass resignation by
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the pro-democracy legislators in Hong
Kong. So effectively, Beijing has taken
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control of Hong Kong's legislature, the
last or third branch of government, the
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judiciary. There's been a number of cases
where judges have brought in their
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political opinions. Most significantly, a
nonpermanent judge of the quarterfinal
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appeal, Australian Justice Spigelman
resigned in September this year from the
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quarterfinal appeal, citing the new
national security law. Freedom of
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expression in Hong Kong has frozen.
Freedom of association, assembly and the
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ability of severely diminished. Hong Kong
was ranked 18th in the world in terms of
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freedom of the press and journalism, but
in 2020 it fell down to 80th place. In the
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news right now has been the arrest of
Jimmy Lai, the founder of Apple Daily
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under the national security law. Bail was
denied, but he secured bail last week from
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the High Court. The Department of Justice,
Director of Public Prosecutions, has filed
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an appeal to that, to the court, a final
appeal to seek that the bail be revoked
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for Mr Lai. There's also other examples of
journalists like Choi Yuk-Ling of RTHK.
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What the Hong Kong authorities have been
doing the last year is if they cannot find
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a basis to arrest an individual journalist
or activist or politician under the new
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national security law, they use some
draconian laws or try to find some
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technicality to, you know, arrest somebody
for something that's not even related to
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their work, simply trying to shut up or
stop the media from speaking and writing
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their stories. In 2017, there's been an
exodus and en masse from Hong Kong. It's
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been quiet. It's been steady. But that
exodus accelerated in 2019 and accelerated
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even more in 2020 with the new national
security law. And talking to clients and
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colleagues, the shipping and freight
companies in Hong Kong are overbooked.
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That data indicates that there's large
numbers of people leaving Hong Kong. They
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do not see a future in Hong Kong. Now,
Canada started accepting refugees earlier
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this year, and in September, Canada
started granting refugee status of Hong
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Kong people who have been politically
persecuted because of their participation
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in protests or they voiced their opinion.
Cong Pei Wu, the Chinese ambassador to
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Canada in Ottawa spoke out and I'll quote
what he said: We strongly urge the
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Canadian side not to grant so-called
political asylum to those violent
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criminals as refugees because it is
interference in China's domestic affairs
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and certainly will embolden those violent
criminals. That was on October 15, 2020.
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And what is interesting here is that China
is actually a signatory to the UN
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convention relating to the Status of
Refugees. And the refugee convention forms
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part of China's constitution, and part of
that is to respect and recognize that
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other countries will screen asylum seekers
and grant them refugee status if they show
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a well-founded fear of persecution,
whether it's religion, ethnicity, race,
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nationality, political opinion or other
social group. And what's also interesting
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is that under the Refugee Convention,
under Article 1F and 33.2, but 1F in
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particular, that if anybody had committed
a serious violent offense, let's say, in
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Hong Kong, even if they were granted
recognize as a refugee, they would not be
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granted refugee status because of that
violence. So the Chinese ambassador to
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Hong Kong apparently doesn't understand
the law and doesn't understand or respect
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that Canada will be looking at whether any
asylum seekers have committed offenses
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that would exclude them from that
protection. Over the last year, we've seen
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legislators, former legislators, members
of political, opposing political parties,
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flee the jurisdiction. What Hong Kong
authorities in Beijing have been trying to
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do is to find a basis or whether they're
found well founded or not on evidence, but
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to arrest them, put them into the Hong
Kong criminal justice system. And in
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applying for bail, typically a condition
is they hand over their travel documents.
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So there are a lot of activists and
politicians in Hong Kong who can't leave
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because they don't have travel documents.
Beijing and Hong Kong clearly want to
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close the borders on anyone who is in, you
know, expresses dissent against the Hong
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Kong or Beijing governments. But there
are, there have been legislators and
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political activists who have fled. And
I've put on a slide of. Ray Wong and Alan
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Li had fled in 2017, about that time, and
were granted refugee status in Germany.
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Baggio Leung recently fled to the US.
Simon Cheng, Honques Lao, Sunny Chou, Ted
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00:31:02,549 --> 00:31:07,099
Hui, Nathan Law, Wayne Chan, Samuel Chu,
all left Hong Kong. And they're all
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seeking asylum, political asylum in
Western Europe or North America. Now
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coming back to the Snowden refugees and
what I'd like to do before going into the
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situation with one Snowden refugee in Hong
Kong, I'm just going to give you a quick
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update on Vanessa and her daughter, who
are now resettled in Montreal. They've had
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a hard time of it during the pandemic in
Montreal. And I've put up a photo from
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September 2020, which really shows, you
know, really projects the feeling, you
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know, after almost a year of having to
practice social distancing and every other
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safe practices so they don't get infected
or infect others. A nonprofit, just to
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update everybody, a nonprofit was set up
in June 2020. The previous private
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sponsors in Montreal had stopped providing
support to Vanessa and Keana in April
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2020, which put this single mom and her
daughter in a terrible situation without
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any food or or rent. And the last of the
money that was provided by the private
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sponsor was provided in early May. So as
of June, this family had nothing to
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survive on. So I contacted people I know
in the Montreal community and they stepped
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forward and they set up a nonprofit
organization called helpvanessa.com.
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Oliver Stone, Academy Award winning
director, Shailene Woodley, who starred in
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the Snowden film, also an Oliver Stone
film, stepped forward and advocated to, in
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support and to ask for donations for
Vanessa and her daughter. And today, we've
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raised more than fifty thousand Canadian,
which now allows Vanessa and her daughter
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to remain safe and secure during the
pandemic and also to continue their French
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language studies. And this is a photo of
them in November 2020, last month. And
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this was Christmas Eve: Keana is on the
left, Vanessa in the middle. And the third
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person is Minh Tam Tran, who's the founder
of the nonprofit "Help Vanessa & Keana".
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I'd like to quickly mention him. He's the
son of a refugee family originally from
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Vietnam after the war in 1975, finally
resettled in Montreal and he was born in
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Montreal. He's a pharmacist and executive
director of the Association professionelle
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des pharmaciens salariés du Quebec. He
founded the nonprofit "Help Vanessa &
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Keana", and he's also founded a new
nonprofit called helpajith.com. I'm going
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to go into Ajith's situation. This is
2017. I've put up a photo of Ajith at the
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removal assessment section of the
Immigration Department, and this was
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before, a week before Immigration rejected
Ajith's asylum claims. And just briefly,
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00:34:25,310 --> 00:34:30,620
Ajith was injured in the Civil War,
protecting his fellow soldiers. He was
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denied medical assistance under the Geneva
Convention by the Sri Lankan army. And he
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was put in an untenable situation where
he's looking at losing his life. So he
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fled. He was a military deserter. He was
caught a few years later and tortured.
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There was an attempt to execute him, but
he managed to flee the military camp and
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he fled to to Hong Kong in 2003, leaving
behind his wife and a newborn baby girl.
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This is, I put up a photo of Ajith in
1993, so you can see the young man that he
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was. And in Hong Kong, similar to Ibrahim,
the Somali journalist, from 2003 onward,
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Ajith has been subjected to systemic
racism and discrimination by the Hong Kong
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government and its institutions. He's been
denied sufficient humanitarian assistance
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00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:37,170
and I took on his case in 2012 and he's
constantly been subjected to racial
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profiling, even not showing up to
conferences, law conferences that I was
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holding because the police had stopped him
on the street as he was trying to get to
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my office. There's been discrimination by
the, you know, by the police immigration
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against him, and also there's been attacks
by the government against myself with a
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view of removing me as his lawyer. This is
a photo of Ajith a couple of years ago,
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and he's had a very difficult time in Hong
Kong. For 17 years, you know, he was
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subjected, he's been subjected to
discrimination, as I've described, and all
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of this has had an enormously adverse
impact on Ajith and that his mental
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condition has collapsed a number of times.
And he's just wanted to give up. And he's
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been what I would describe as a victim of
constructive refoulment. But fortunately,
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we were able to convince him and we have
recently tried to get him some help. He's
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been suffering from post-traumatic stress
disorder since before he left Sri Lanka.
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Untreated. And only recently we've been
able to get him a little bit of help.
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Going to his role with Mr. Snowden. In
2013, when Mr. Snowden arrived, Ajith,
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despite all the terrible things that have
happened to him, the persecution, his
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discrimination he suffered in Sri Lanka
and Hong Kong, he just stepped forward and
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he was more than willing to help Mr.
Snowden shelter in 2013. And in 2016,
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because of Ajith's story coming into the
public domain, the Hong Kong government
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targeted him because of his assistance to
Mr. Snowden and targeted myself. And in
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2018, Ajith was left without the support
of the duty law service. But myself and
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00:37:46,660 --> 00:37:50,060
then another lawyer found a solicitor
willing to instruct us privately to
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00:37:50,060 --> 00:37:56,870
continue his appeal. Now. In parallel to
all of this, I advised Ajith to apply to
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Canada for refugee status, private sponsor
was found in Quebec and Ajith's refugee
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00:38:04,050 --> 00:38:12,080
claims were filed in January 2017. And
while all of this was happening, the Sri
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Lankan police, aware that Ajith is in Hong
Kong, sent police officers to Hong Kong in
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December 2016 looking for him. The Hong
Kong police, instead of investigating the
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Sri Lankan police, made a decision to
investigate myself and my client's. Now,
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Ajith's cases were rejected by immigration
in May 2017, and I filed an appeal in the
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Torture Claim Appeal Board. And this is a
major update on Ajith's situation in Hong
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Kong in that his appeal was heard by an
Australian adjudicator, a barrister, Adam
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00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:58,100
Moore, who took up, who was the
adjudicator in this case in 2017, heard
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his full appeal in June 2018. And no
decision has been handed down in three and
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a half years. From 2018 to November this
year, Adam Moore had not handed down a
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00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:15,160
decision and there is no explanation for
that. And then suddenly in November 2020,
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the TCAB announced that Mr Moore was no
longer the adjudicator without giving any
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reason. And now a panel of three
adjudicators would hear Ajith's case and
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start that process all over again. This is
a process that's been delayed and, in my
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00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:46,990
view, abused by the Security Bureau and
the Torture Claim Appeal Board. There's no
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rational basis why the Torture Claim
Appeal Board did not hand down a decision
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00:39:53,380 --> 00:40:01,010
on an Ajith's case years ago. And this is
an example of how this part of the
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00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:09,300
judiciary, there's a lack of transparency
and accountability. And the second
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significant event is that one of the three
adjudicators is an Australian adjudicator
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named Fraser Syme, and he's one of the
three, on the new panel for Ajith's
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00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:28,960
appeal. Mr. Syme was also the same
adjudicator in the appeal of the other
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00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:35,650
Snowden refugee family of Suppun and
Nadeeka and the two children. And Mr. Syme
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00:40:35,650 --> 00:40:41,980
rejected their appeals and now the Torture
Claim Appeal Board has found it proper to
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appoint Mr. Syme, who's already
predetermined. Decided refugee grounds for
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00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:54,280
supporting his family that are the same
grounds for Ajith's case, so there's an
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00:40:54,280 --> 00:41:00,440
adjudicator on the new TCAB panel, that
has already predetermined the appeal
387
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against Ajith, at least on certain refugee
grounds, so there's an appearance of bias,
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there's clearly a conflict of interest.
Making matters worse is judicial review
389
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:18,520
leave application was filed in the high
court in January 2019, challenging Fraser
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00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:23,980
Syme's rejection of supporting this
family's refugee claims. So the Torture
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Claim Appeal Board has put in Mr. Syme
knowing full well that his decision on the
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exact refugee grounds for support and also
Ajith, those common grounds may be
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overturned by the High Court. So it's
quite clear with years of delay,
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inordinate delay and the removal or
disappearance of Adam Morse, the
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adjudicator, and, you know, the
constitution of a new tribunal after so
396
00:41:59,870 --> 00:42:05,430
many years with Fraser Syme on there, that
he's not receiving a fair process here, a
397
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:16,861
fair hearing. Now, in terms of a Ajith's
mental health situation, the 2019 pro-
398
00:42:16,861 --> 00:42:22,050
democracy protests and the police
crackdowns, Ajith saw firsthand how the
399
00:42:22,050 --> 00:42:28,060
police were acting arbitrarily and
attacking innocent bystanders, protesters
400
00:42:28,060 --> 00:42:33,010
and this retraumatized Ajith. These
are the same scenes in the same conduct of
401
00:42:33,010 --> 00:42:40,350
police in Hong Kong that he witnessed in
Sri Lanka when he was in Sri Lanka. The
402
00:42:40,350 --> 00:42:47,170
new national security law, similar to the
Prevention of Terrorism Act in Sri Lanka,
403
00:42:47,170 --> 00:42:54,340
is another factor which has traumatized
Ajith and he is in fear for his life.
404
00:42:54,340 --> 00:42:58,080
Making matters worse, there's an
immigration amendment bill that's just
405
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,670
been brought into the legislature and mind
you, the legislature has no opposition.
406
00:43:02,670 --> 00:43:09,060
It's basically pro Beijing controlled. And
in this new legislation, immigration
407
00:43:09,060 --> 00:43:13,800
officers will now be able to carry guns
and steel batons when dealing with
408
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:20,660
refugees. This is simply going to re-
traumatize my client and other refugees.
409
00:43:20,660 --> 00:43:26,080
There's now powers to detain asylum
seekers, effectively indefinitely, when
410
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:31,641
they're in Hong Kong. There's new
provisions where the immigration officer
411
00:43:31,641 --> 00:43:35,630
will decide effectively if interpreters
are needed. And it'll be the immigration
412
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:42,030
officer's view whether a person's
screening interviews or appeal should be
413
00:43:42,030 --> 00:43:49,320
conducted without an interpreter. The
other issue that is shocking, in my view,
414
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,770
is after the first stage of immigration
screening, if the cases are rejected,
415
00:43:53,770 --> 00:43:59,160
there are now powers for immigration
officers to go to foreign consulates to
416
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:05,640
obtain to start the process of obtaining
travel documents. That should never happen
417
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:12,730
until after all appeals are exhausted. So
what's happening is that all these asylum
418
00:44:12,730 --> 00:44:16,590
seekers, contrary to U.N. guidelines,
their identities are being exposed at the
419
00:44:16,590 --> 00:44:25,500
first stage to foreign governments that
they fled from, fled persecution from.
420
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:30,310
Usually, a hearing could not be held
before 28 days in the Torture Claim Appeal
421
00:44:30,310 --> 00:44:38,580
Board. Now, the limit is seven days, which
again... Now, how do I view all of all of
422
00:44:38,580 --> 00:44:45,010
these changes to the immigration
legislation? It's just a legislative and
423
00:44:45,010 --> 00:44:50,730
policy framework that is going to put more
pressure on asylum seekers and it
424
00:44:50,730 --> 00:44:57,810
violates, in my view, the doctrine of
constructive refoulment, where we've set
425
00:44:57,810 --> 00:45:04,630
up, Minh Tam Tran in Montreal set up the
nonprofit helpajith.com and we're asking
426
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:09,890
for donations. Ajith needs support. During
this time he is waiting, as with the other
427
00:45:09,890 --> 00:45:14,050
Snowden refugees, the outcomes of their
asylum cases in Canada. But pending that
428
00:45:14,050 --> 00:45:20,340
time, Ajith needs help. And we'd ask that
if you can go to the website and donate.
429
00:45:20,340 --> 00:45:24,910
You know, no matter how big or small the
donations are, Ajith needs help. Thank
430
00:45:24,910 --> 00:45:29,820
you.
Ibrahim Al Hussein: Hi, everyone, my name
431
00:45:29,820 --> 00:45:35,870
is Ibrahim Al Hussein, I would have said
I'm a journalist from Somalia, but the
432
00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:43,250
Somali government and al-Shabaab targeted
me. I had been kidnaped and tortured. The
433
00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:50,740
reason I was not killed is because of my
family and friends bid ransom money to
434
00:45:50,740 --> 00:45:59,750
spend my life. I flew to Hong Kong only to
be treated like a criminal and subjected
435
00:45:59,750 --> 00:46:08,350
to racism as I lived in a poverty degraded
and treated inhumanly. My life in Hong
436
00:46:08,350 --> 00:46:16,710
Kong was like a slow death. I was sent
back to Somalia and once again had to run
437
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:26,590
for my life and could not even see my
family. I then found my way to Europe and
438
00:46:26,590 --> 00:46:36,210
Greece. I found myself in two refugee
camps fighting again to survive. The
439
00:46:36,210 --> 00:46:43,580
communites were inhuman and degrading.
Many refugees were violently injured and
440
00:46:43,580 --> 00:46:51,770
killed inside the camp. What saved me was
the refugee screening, which proceeded
441
00:46:51,770 --> 00:47:00,860
rapidly. Human rights in Hong Kong do not
exist for refugees, but I was lucky to
442
00:47:00,860 --> 00:47:08,250
have a human rights lawyer, Mister Robert
Tibbo. Without his help, I would not be
443
00:47:08,250 --> 00:47:13,780
here today. Thank you very much, guys.
Vanessa: I know about Ajith's torture
444
00:47:13,780 --> 00:47:19,880
claim appeal in Hong Kong has been for
three and a half years, and I know that
445
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:24,750
the adjudicator of police appeal has
disappeared and there is no decision in
446
00:47:24,750 --> 00:47:30,430
his appeal after three and a half years. I
know that the appeal board is now starting
447
00:47:30,430 --> 00:47:37,150
his appeal, start all over again. Now with
the three judges hearing his appeal, I
448
00:47:37,150 --> 00:47:43,010
think this is so incomprehensible to
Ajith. He has waiting for 17 years for his
449
00:47:43,010 --> 00:47:49,650
case to be decided. After almost four
years, the appeal process him to start all
450
00:47:49,650 --> 00:47:56,380
over again. Is the Hong Kong government
causing all this delay? From my own
451
00:47:56,380 --> 00:48:04,180
experience in Hong Kong appeal boards, the
judge was unfair and I feeled traumatized.
452
00:48:04,180 --> 00:48:11,640
For Ajith, to again, have to go through,
another appeal will be a real trauma for
453
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:23,420
him. He will be forced to dare historical
experience again. And it will give him
454
00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:28,580
nightmare.
455
00:48:28,580 --> 00:48:32,400
Herald: This is WTF International and you
have just seen a recording by Robert
456
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:39,860
Tibbo, who is the lawyer of Edward
Snowden, and he's now connected. Hello,
457
00:48:39,860 --> 00:48:43,720
Mister Tibbo!.
Robert Tibbo: Welcome. Thank you for
458
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:49,220
having me here. One thing I had failed to
mention in the prerecorded video
459
00:48:49,220 --> 00:48:53,520
discussion is that two of my clients would
have done short videos to introduce
460
00:48:53,520 --> 00:49:03,880
themselves to the public. So one thing I'd
like to just mention here, as I mentioned
461
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:09,360
at the end of the video, is that Ajith is
still in Hong Kong, one of the Snowden
462
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:15,370
refugees who protected Mr. Snowden when he
was in Hong Kong in 2013. And he does need
463
00:49:15,370 --> 00:49:20,560
help. And one way you can
help is by donations.
464
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:26,390
Herald: All right, thanks for the... We
are now taking questions for Mr. Tibbo,
465
00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:35,240
you have several over... Q&A during our
live program. Some of you have asked us...
466
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:39,780
and if you go into the streaming window
below that, you've got several tabs,
467
00:49:39,780 --> 00:49:48,220
one... the chat window. And if you click
on that, you can see the hashtag, #R...
468
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:53,120
which we'll monitor on Mastodon and
Twitter. And you can also join the... on
469
00:49:53,120 --> 00:50:01,210
hackend and the IRC. So far, there haven't
been any questions in... the shell, but
470
00:50:01,210 --> 00:50:07,510
Mr. Tibbo, are there any other ways... and
watchers who have just seen what you've
471
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:13,550
presented them and the very personal
messages by ... voice is heard in order to
472
00:50:13,550 --> 00:50:20,750
foster the cases of those people, you...
Robert: Yes, as I mentioned, the primary
473
00:50:20,750 --> 00:50:26,440
way to support my clients, in particular
Ajith at this time, is to is to make
474
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:34,540
donations. There's a website,
helpajith.com, where you can make
475
00:50:34,540 --> 00:50:43,220
donations various ways, from credit card
to bitcoin. The other issue is awareness
476
00:50:43,220 --> 00:50:48,040
and discussion. There's a lot of talk
about, you know, the role of
477
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:55,660
whistleblowers, particularly in today's
world. But there's been less talk about
478
00:50:55,660 --> 00:51:00,030
the protection of whistleblowers and the
Snowden refugees did the extraordinary by
479
00:51:00,030 --> 00:51:06,710
stepping forward, making their decisions
of conscience to provide shelter and food
480
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:15,530
and compassion to Mr. Snowden when he was
in Hong Kong in 2013. And in all the
481
00:51:15,530 --> 00:51:21,920
Snowden refugees cases, one of the grounds
for refugee protection is the clients have
482
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:27,290
a well-founded fear of persecution based
on political opinion and that they make
483
00:51:27,290 --> 00:51:35,390
decisions to help Mr. Snowden. And so that
forms a social group, those who help or
484
00:51:35,390 --> 00:51:39,640
protect whistleblowers. And I think that,
you know, there needs to be more
485
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:47,850
discussion about the importance of people
in society who... and the courage that it
486
00:51:47,850 --> 00:51:52,000
takes to step forward and to help
somebody, particularly for high profile
487
00:51:52,000 --> 00:52:01,700
cases. It's easy to help somebody or a
group of people when it's a popular person
488
00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:07,410
or a popular cause or if it's a low
profile cause. But it's extremely difficult
489
00:52:07,410 --> 00:52:14,110
for an individual to step forward to help
another when even though the cause is the
490
00:52:14,110 --> 00:52:22,650
most just cause. But it's unpopular. So
there are legal and moral and ethical
491
00:52:22,650 --> 00:52:27,240
issues, and I think that should be part of
the discussion that everyone should be
492
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:30,820
having.
Herald: Thank you for that, and there's
493
00:52:30,820 --> 00:52:37,010
been the question on the chat, which I
need to rephrase, because... The question
494
00:52:37,010 --> 00:52:43,990
is how to build a global consciousness
against... and to to join up forces both
495
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:52,750
from a lawyerly and scholarly... groups
that believe more in direct action.
496
00:52:52,750 --> 00:52:56,880
Robert Tibbo: You'll have to repeat that
again, the signal came through a bit
497
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,950
choppy.
Herald: Question on the chat, whether
498
00:53:00,950 --> 00:53:07,540
there's any efforts to build a global kind
of state oppression, more or less, and
499
00:53:07,540 --> 00:53:14,660
coordinate between teams that take a
more... steadily more direct action.
500
00:53:14,660 --> 00:53:21,340
Robert Tibbo: I think what's happening is
you're seeing this kind of action with
501
00:53:21,340 --> 00:53:30,520
nonprofits, lawyers through protests, and
you're seeing it within communities,
502
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:37,240
within cities, within whole jurisdictions.
But I think what's happened with the covid
503
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:44,180
situation is that's basically compelled
everybody because of the public health
504
00:53:44,180 --> 00:53:50,630
issues, self-isolating, social distancing,
masks, we've had to take a step back to
505
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:54,530
think, OK, how do we communicate now? How
do we interact and exercise our
506
00:53:54,530 --> 00:54:00,130
fundamental rights and freedoms? So I
think we're in a dangerous period where,
507
00:54:00,130 --> 00:54:08,050
you know, we're still struggling how to
connect globally to cooperate and bring
508
00:54:08,050 --> 00:54:13,250
this kind of awareness about. The second
issue is to do that, you need to be able
509
00:54:13,250 --> 00:54:19,560
to get the message out through advocacy
and activism. Right now that the covid
510
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:26,290
pandemic consumes the media reports. I've
been told about 75% or 85% of the news
511
00:54:26,290 --> 00:54:34,540
coverage in a given media organization,75%
to 85%. At the same time, governments are
512
00:54:34,540 --> 00:54:39,470
using the cover of covid, the global
pandemic, to suppress freedom of
513
00:54:39,470 --> 00:54:46,070
expression and to strip away fundamental
rights and freedoms. So I think the
514
00:54:46,070 --> 00:54:50,740
question is a great question, and I think
it's a matter of... you know, when doing
515
00:54:50,740 --> 00:54:54,440
this through encrypted means, doing it
where you have your privacy for global
516
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,890
groups to consider. How do we connect up
together, what messages we want to get
517
00:54:57,890 --> 00:55:04,240
out? But then the real challenge will be
getting the message out through to the public
518
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:11,980
because of the current global pandemic.
Herald: Are there already... to go ahead
519
00:55:11,980 --> 00:55:20,350
and prepare all the messaging to come out
of the pandemic if and when the...
520
00:55:20,350 --> 00:55:26,570
Robert Tibbo: As far like I'm not aware of
any concerted efforts globally, I mean,
521
00:55:26,570 --> 00:55:31,930
there are some non-profits around the
world who are trying to get messages out
522
00:55:31,930 --> 00:55:36,150
or trying to get stakeholders so those
affected in different jurisdictions. But
523
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:47,410
right now, I'm not aware of any organized,
concerted effort to to try to have this
524
00:55:47,410 --> 00:55:55,340
sort of global connection and being able
to speak globally, but also locally, you
525
00:55:55,340 --> 00:56:01,720
know, informing the global community
what's going on. I think we are, it's just
526
00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:09,850
a difficult time. One of the best examples
is Hong Kong with the covid pandemic
527
00:56:09,850 --> 00:56:14,810
there. There's been four waves. And in the
midst of the second wave of the pandemic
528
00:56:14,810 --> 00:56:19,920
in Hong Kong, Beijing imposed a new
national security law, which basically has
529
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:26,670
stripped away fundamental rights and
freedom of expression. So I think we're
530
00:56:26,670 --> 00:56:29,780
just in a difficult time and it's going to
be for different groups around the world
531
00:56:29,780 --> 00:56:37,230
to figure out how to communicate.
Hopefully the pandemic will come to an end
532
00:56:37,230 --> 00:56:43,910
in the end of this year or next year and
we'll see where we go from there.
533
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:46,700
Herald: There's one more question from the
chat, and I think it's a softball pitch,
534
00:56:46,700 --> 00:56:53,610
more or less... Free, autonomous press,
free autonomous media as in decentralized,
535
00:56:53,610 --> 00:57:03,430
probably... of getting the message out.
Robert Tibbo: The signal is a bit choppy,
536
00:57:03,430 --> 00:57:07,790
I missed the middle of your question, if
you could repeat it.
537
00:57:07,790 --> 00:57:14,390
Herald: Ok. Would you say that a free and
autonomous press, autonomous media...
538
00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:18,570
decentralized, probably unsensible would
be a cornerstone of getting the message
539
00:57:18,570 --> 00:57:24,580
out?
Robert Tibbo: Absolutely. One thing that
540
00:57:24,580 --> 00:57:32,870
I've talked about in past talks is that
two things have happened, are happening at
541
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:41,930
this time and have been happening over the
last decade. And that is journalism has,
542
00:57:41,930 --> 00:57:47,300
mainstream journalism is being eroded,
investigative journalists are few in
543
00:57:47,300 --> 00:57:52,540
number today, and journalism has become
more centralized in major urban centers.
544
00:57:52,540 --> 00:57:59,910
And in smaller cities, towns, rural areas,
there is no more journalism there at all.
545
00:57:59,910 --> 00:58:06,691
In a lot of regions around the world. And
when those things happen, you have poor
546
00:58:06,691 --> 00:58:14,190
behavior of local government in terms of
policies and public expenditure and also
547
00:58:14,190 --> 00:58:22,620
abuses of human rights. We are really in
desperate need of having independent,
548
00:58:22,620 --> 00:58:30,650
autonomous journalists and journalism at
this time, more than ever. But at the same
549
00:58:30,650 --> 00:58:37,580
time, journalists who have the capacity
and capability to do investigative
550
00:58:37,580 --> 00:58:45,370
journalism. You know, the problem what's
been happening the last five years, 10
551
00:58:45,370 --> 00:58:53,230
years, is that the media that's centered
in the major urban centers, they're not
552
00:58:53,230 --> 00:58:56,760
picking up stories and speaking for the
more vulnerable or those who are
553
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,900
geographically outside of the main areas.
And that's a very dangerous thing. So,
554
00:59:00,900 --> 00:59:06,601
yes, I agree there should be more
autonomous media and there should not be
555
00:59:06,601 --> 00:59:11,780
censoring on that media.
Herald: So, in fact, if you if you look at
556
00:59:11,780 --> 00:59:17,580
that, I mean, encrypted communication is
well and everybody should use it
557
00:59:17,580 --> 00:59:23,250
especially to exchange information with
journalists. But in the end, for the
558
00:59:23,250 --> 00:59:31,630
general public, independent media that is
not centralized in some few conglomerates
559
00:59:31,630 --> 00:59:35,760
might even be more efficient to get the
message out to the broader masses, right?
560
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,640
Robert Tibbo: Absolutely. I think what
needs to be done is you need more
561
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:45,970
autonomous journalism and journalists in
smaller cities operating autonomously, in
562
00:59:45,970 --> 00:59:53,600
the bigger cities, to be able to pick up
stories. What you're seeing right now with
563
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:58,180
the mainstream media focusing on covid
stories, for example, the US elections and
564
00:59:58,180 --> 01:00:02,790
Donald Trump are that they're not picking
up smaller stories. They're not picking up
565
01:00:02,790 --> 01:00:07,800
low profile stories anymore. And
governments are taking advantage of that.
566
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,220
They know that they can act almost with
impunity because they know that the
567
01:00:12,220 --> 01:00:18,030
smaller stories where somebody in your
communities, fundamental rights are being
568
01:00:18,030 --> 01:00:20,960
violated by the government or local
authorities, it's not going to get
569
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:27,080
reported at this time. When the pandemic
is over, the situation will be the same.
570
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:32,920
There's a lack of independent autonomous
journalists. One of the big problems is
571
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:39,590
money. A lot of the money that used to go
into advertising for mainstream media,
572
01:00:39,590 --> 01:00:43,760
even local newspapers, is now going
online. People are spending their time
573
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:49,770
looking at online media that has nothing
to do with their local communities or even
574
01:00:49,770 --> 01:00:55,750
their countries. People are spending their
time on YouTube and Facebook, TikTok is
575
01:00:55,750 --> 01:01:01,320
another example where all the advertising
is going. So we have a situation where
576
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:08,260
enormous amounts of money are going to
only certain media, some of the
577
01:01:08,260 --> 01:01:16,490
mainstream, a lot of it to social
entertainment online and infotainment. And
578
01:01:16,490 --> 01:01:21,060
the money is disappearing from that. Money
is disappearing and it's having an impact
579
01:01:21,060 --> 01:01:25,930
on two things. One is the funding of
investigative journalism. Number two,
580
01:01:25,930 --> 01:01:32,650
being able to find and support autonomous
local media in smaller cities, towns and
581
01:01:32,650 --> 01:01:38,260
rural areas. And I've seen that here in
North America. And I know the same thing's
582
01:01:38,260 --> 01:01:43,320
been happening in Europe and also
in Australia, New Zealand.
583
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:48,840
Herald: Alrighty, so this means subscribing
to your local small town newspaper might
584
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:57,500
be even as well as a step in joining the
revolution as using encrypted messaging.
585
01:01:57,500 --> 01:02:01,730
Robert Tibbo: Absolutely. It's got to be a
grassroots effort from the ground up.
586
01:02:01,730 --> 01:02:06,020
Herald: Everybody can take their part. We
do not have a stage, so you have to
587
01:02:06,020 --> 01:02:10,630
imagine the applause that you're getting
via IRC right now. Thank you again so much
588
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:14,880
for being with us, Robert Tibbo.
Robert Tibbo: Thank you.
589
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,720
Abspannmusik
590
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:25,000
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