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rC3 preroll music
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Herald: As we said the years before, the[br]force merged to main. Andy is commonly
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known in our scene. His current talk "CIA[br]vs. WikiLeaks: intimidation, surveillance,
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and other tactics observed and[br]experienced". In this talk Andy aims to
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report and show us a collection of his[br]observations, physical, visual and other
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evidences of the last year incidents that[br]strongly indicate the context of US
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Central Intelligence Agency and[br]potentially other entities of the US
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government acting against WikiLeaks and[br]surrounding persons and organizations.
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Please welcome, with a very warm digital[br]applause, Andy.
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Andy: OK, I have no idea how a digital[br]applause works here, but thanks for it
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anyhow. At the beginning, I want to make[br]and I have to make a few disclaimers, so
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that you know which perspective you're[br]getting here. I'm working as a data
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journalist for quite a while around the[br]topics of surveillance, signal
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intelligence, data security. I'm running[br]this funny buggedplanet, even started that
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buggedplanet.info before Snowden came with[br]all his documents. But I did work a while
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with his documents. However, this talk is[br]a bit different as I'm not talking about
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things that I learned, studied or[br]whatever, but I experienced myself. I'm
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describing events here where I was[br]targeted. So, I might not be the most
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neutral person in this scenario, but I'm[br]trying to be technically as accurate as
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possible anyhow. So forgive me if I'm a[br]bit grumpy about these people. That's just
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because of their perspective. Secondly,[br]while I've also and the CCC, of course,
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has been addressing human rights issues in[br]the digital age for a long time, we, and I
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personally, co-founded EDRI, the European[br]Digital Rights Initiative, to ensure the
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enforcement of human rights in the digital[br]environment. However, what happened here
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is slightly beyond digital rights. It goes[br]into real life. And while I'm a German
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citizen, and I know roughly what kind of[br]laws have been violated here, in respect
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to the German environment, I absolutely[br]would welcome people who help me analyze
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and understand it from the perspective of[br]the universal human rights, because there
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is similar cases with people living in[br]other jurisdictions and so on. Second
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slide of disclaimers, sorry that it's so[br]much, so I'm addressing with this talk
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activities against people surrounding and[br]have been and/or surrounding Julian and/or
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WikiLeaks and/or other members of[br]WikiLeaks. Whatever I describe here, I
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have personally observed and experienced[br]it. So it is for sure very incomplete.
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It's at best a fragment of what's gone on.[br]But you will, in case you haven't heard
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about it yet, that Pompeo made some very[br]clear statements when he was head of CIA.
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It's pretty clear where to attribute these[br]things. And lastly, there is, of course,
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other persons mentioned. But I'm keeping[br]them out here for all kinds of reasons.
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But there will be the time when we will[br]hear more reports and other perspective of
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this particular situation. So, here's my[br]little overview. I want to get you an idea
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how to get into such a mess. Just in case,[br]you know, you want it. The context and the
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timeline, a bit of psychology as it's[br]important because at some point you not
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only get paranoid, you have this drive[br]to... no this can't be true. Right? You
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have this cognitive dissonance drive[br]inside of you that you would like to stay
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sane. The new normal of "IT-incidents".[br]We're all used to that, covert vs. overt.
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What I mean with the term intimidation[br]surveillance, physical events and their
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impact about the elephant in the room, the[br]problem of the missing socks. And at the
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end, a little bit of questions. Am I[br]infectious, how to get out of this mess?
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Maybe also. So, how to get into such a[br]beautiful mess? Wait, it's not beautiful.
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Well, there are some ideas we share in the[br]hacker community usually, and even it's
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not far from there to get into the[br]journalist community. Information should
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be free. Free flow of information is a bit[br]of a requirement for world peace. And we
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had this and I personally also had this[br]type of self conception, self
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understanding consciousness. Twenty years[br]already when WikiLeaks started around
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2006. So this is not that I was jumping or[br]anybody in the scene was jumping onto
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something that didn't exist until then.[br]But WikiLeaks turned out to be an
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extremely good concept as a democracy[br]test. If governments cannot deal with full
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transparency, well, that tells you a lot[br]about them. But, of course, that is
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similar to jumping to the last point,[br]similar to working in journalism. When you
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expose things in journalism be it[br]corruption, be it hypocrisy of
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politicians, be it blunt lies or whatever.[br]It's not always about making friends. It's
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yes, partly making friends, and partly[br]pissing people off. That happens. However,
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in this particular environment that Julian[br]inspired to create. There's some
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cultural, even misunderstandings. For[br]example, the word conspiracy. For us in
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Europe, I think many of us indeed German[br]hacker scene are inspired by Robert and
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Wilton's way of saying, oh, a conspiracy[br]is like the world is full of them and we
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should join the best of them. But in the[br]American context, the word conspiracy is a
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legal term, unfortunately. And when you[br]are with American citizens in a room and
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talk about conspiracies, they often get[br]very nervous. And it's kind of a complete
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different attitude. Because it's like the[br]U.S. term to define people who belong to a
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group like, organized criminals or[br]organized, you know, this T word, this
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other type of entities. And of course,[br]that's absolutely not what we want to get
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into involved here. But sometimes, we[br]mistakenly are misunderstandingly joke
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about conspiracies and people listening to[br]this get it completely wrong. And I fear
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that is also what happened and how me and[br]others got into such a mess. So at the
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end, of course, in journalism and that's[br]similar to dealing with data from a
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hackers perspective is about supporting[br]media with data and information and so on.
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So here is a bit of a timeline to give you[br]a time frame. I'm now after I was a bit
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long for about two decades a CCC[br]spokesperson and board member blah blah
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blah, I moved to the board of the Wau[br]Holland Foundation. Wau Holland Foundation
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collects actually money for WikiLeaks[br]under the aspect of Wau's idea of
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supporting Freedom of Information since[br]2010 or so. I joint a little later.
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However, when WikiLeaks started to publish[br]the Afghanistan, the Iraq war logs and
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diplomatic cables that already triggered[br]legal investigations, and of course, the
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arrest of then still Bradley, now Chelsea[br]Manning, later. So there was always, it
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was always clear, more or less right from[br]the beginning, that there's legal trouble
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on the way, that there's a secret grand[br]jury and that the Americans didn't really
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appreciate their war crimes to be exposed[br]and the diplomatic cables to be in the
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Internet, to be understood and readable[br]for all of us and the media worldwide and
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so on. Of course, when people come[br]together and gather in any project, you
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have human beings, you have, they have[br]characters, they have mistakes. They do
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things that are not always great. So I'm[br]not trying to say here that everything was
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always great and it was only the CIA[br]messing it up. No, humans make mistakes
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and these mistakes in such an environment,[br]of course, get exploited, get amplified
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and so on. In 2007, WikiLeaks started[br]publishing some CIA documents and a whole
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series of it, the so-called 'Vault 7'[br]documents. And those documents describe
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technology, exploit programs from the CIA.[br]You probably, most of you will know them.
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If not, you can now look them up. And[br]these included tools that allowed the CIA
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to pretend to be someone else, including[br]coming from another country, speaking
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another language, be from Russia, in[br]Russia be from Iran and Farsi and so on.
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And Pompeo, who was at that moment still[br]head of the CIA, got very upset. And there's
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two references from this, one from April[br]2017, and another is from February 2018.
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In his first public speech as a CIA[br]director in 13 of April 2017, he made a
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speech at a conference working in[br]Washington and he said things like
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WikiLeaks walks like a hostile[br]intelligence service and talks like an
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intelligence service. And called WikiLeaks[br]a non-state hostile intelligence service.
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So for those of you who know a little bit[br]about information science, there's this
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idea of data is actually something you can[br]technically measure. Information is data
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in a context and intelligence is[br]information processed to a level where you
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can make decisions based on it. So being a[br]public intelligence service, I would say
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from that perspective is like an honorable[br]term. However, the way Pompeo emphasized
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it, I think was slightly not that[br]honorable. He was more comparing it to,
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you know, other state actors and evil[br]forces and so on, because the US
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understanding of intelligence service far[br]away from entities... sorry, I need a
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water... Is far away from entities just[br]collecting information, but as you know,
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they also mess up with other people's life[br]and so on. However, a year later, in
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February 2018, he even upgraded this type[br]of statement. The Zeit, German newspaper,
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reported about what he said at the Munich[br]Security Conference Intelligence
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Roundtable, and he said, a really nasty[br]sentence like that. Most of his time he's
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dealing with the non-state actors. And[br]that's like al-Qaida, Islamic State,
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WikiLeaks or Hezbollah. Like what a list.[br]So I have no idea what he has. What turned
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him into comparing these kind of things? I[br]mean, Hezbollah, I could say we in Berlin,
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we know they provide actually yummy[br]halloumi and some things. But yes, they
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are money launderers and are a suspected[br]terrorist in some areas or whatever, or
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have been declared terrorist. But their[br]hummus is really good, I can say. However,
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the point I'm trying to come to. So Pompeo[br]got very upset. He made all this
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comparison and he seems to have allocated[br]resources to deal with WikiLeaks and
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everybody jumping around. And it's no[br]surprise that as Wau Holland Foundation
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finances selected activities of specific[br]publications there, that we also got in
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the focus with us collecting donations[br]and, you know, talking with the guys and
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financing some projects. So before I'm[br]coming to very concrete events, I want to
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get one second into psychology. So, of[br]course, when things happen to you, from
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the intelligence perspective, they always[br]come with what's called plausible
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deniability. When there's a guy standing[br]in front of the door watching, you know,
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if you come in and out, it's not just[br]someone watching your door. It's someone
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reading the newspaper or repairing some[br]electrical pipes or some water pipe or
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whatever. I mean, that's always a good[br]reason for him to be there that has
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nothing to do with what he's doing and[br]that's a basic principle. Plausible
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deniability, how intelligence agencies act[br]in the so-called field. So meaning in your
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home or on the street, following you or[br]whatever. So over time, of course, if you
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have too much of this, you're seeing these[br]patterns, and that's probably mainly
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called paranoia. So you get like, you[br]know, suspicious of everything that
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happens that might be very legitimate, but[br]you get like the feeling that something is
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wrong and so on. And that can be, we could[br]also instead of paranoia, call it
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situational awareness at some points,[br]because if it really happens, it has
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nothing to do with your mind getting[br]crazy. It's just an accurate observation
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of patterns that happen around of you. But[br]you might know that and your two friends
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who experience the same might know that[br]your girlfriend, your partner, the normal
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people you deal with, they might all not[br]understand this and think that you're
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driving nuts. And this driving nuts is, of[br]course, an element that you always have to
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be self-critical, because on the one hand[br]side, you might indeed see too much things
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happening that do not really happen. And[br]on the other hand side, there's also the
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human drive that we don't want these CIA[br]guys to be in our life. We want everything
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to be fine. And to some extent, maybe[br]that's even healthy to not see the
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monsters all the time. But if they are[br]really there and you start denying them
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while they sit in front of you, that's[br]also not so helpful. So I found myself in
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this kind of weird environment where all[br]these kind of thoughts come up all the
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time. And I'm starting with the most[br]harmless stuff. So Internet attacks or
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well Internet incidents. I would... IT-[br]incidents, I called it here. Due to the
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pure volume of it, I will put this into a[br]separate presentation one day or report
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and in the next days or weeks or months.[br]And you can all have fun with it. But here
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is just some basic pattern. So devices you[br]use as communication terminals or
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communication devices, they always have[br]issues when you start to do encrypted
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stuff, and it's always when you do it with[br]specific people. So that's hm... Then,
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mobile phones with data service. At some[br]point, all of them have start to have
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issues. Very high volume of used data,[br]apps disappear if you use them at all. I
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stopped using them at all. High battery[br]usage. When you did nothing with your
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phone over hours and you were wondering[br]what's going on. OK, yes, we have buried
0:17:00.350,0:17:03.949
their bags. We put them somewhere else.[br]But still, it's a little weird when your
0:17:03.949,0:17:12.339
battery is empty half day. On LTE when I[br]configured my phone to be on LTE only it
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worked mainly fine. Next to that, I[br]couldn't make normal phone calls, but when
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I had to do the normal mode, it got[br]downgraded to 3G and there my encrypted
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connections started to have problems. On[br]my fixed lines, my VPNs when I tried to
0:17:28.110,0:17:35.120
build up a VPN shows me certificate errors[br]and problems. And then of course you deal
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with journalists, which I'm doing with my[br]colleagues all the time. And they are not
0:17:40.490,0:17:45.000
technical experts. They all have their[br]Macs and so on. So they have funny issues
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with their PGP keys not working anymore,[br]with their PGP setup not working anymore.
0:17:50.770,0:17:55.630
Yes, it's also because it's open source[br]software, but there's also something going
0:17:55.630,0:18:00.180
on. But this is kind of the world we all[br]know and we got used to it. You know, this
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is like, OK, IT doesn't work. Secure[br]connections break, well, happens all the
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time. From about mid 2017 when I still[br]regularly, like once or twice a month was
0:18:16.730,0:18:21.810
flying over to see Julian in the embassy,[br]I realized that there was something
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changing with my treatment at the border.[br]That's of course, that's yeah, that's
0:18:25.950,0:18:32.880
purely UK border police uncles. And they[br]like started to ask funny questions like
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"Do you live in the UK?", "What's your[br]occupation?", "How long do you stay?",
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"What do you do in the UK?". Before then[br]there was maybe one question, but not
0:18:41.850,0:18:46.970
three or four of them. And the most[br]important was that I realized that he did
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not even listen to my answers. Sometimes[br]he started the first question after I
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answered the third, and it was feeling[br]like in a limbo, like with a machine who
0:18:56.280,0:19:01.000
would randomly ask me things. But I then[br]realized he was just waiting for the green
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light on the screens to let me go. And[br]that green light probably meant that the
0:19:04.831,0:19:12.350
team outside was ready to pick me up and[br]that's what happened. So I get into the UK
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and have people follow me like the whole[br]fucking day, not only on the way to the
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embassy, from the embassy back and so on.[br]I once spotted one of those persons like
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sitting at the street level on the other[br]side watching the whole time I was in an
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office, ground level. And because I had a[br]bit of experience with that in continental
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Europe, like in Germany, if you realized[br]these guys just go after you and you put
0:19:41.390,0:19:46.220
your camera on your table or start even to[br]make photos of them, they're very quickly
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gone because they don't want to be[br]relocated, they don't like to be exposed
0:19:50.190,0:19:56.530
and so on. But the British behaved in this[br]time, this scenario completely different.
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So he was like getting like, you know,[br]very aggressively body language, try
0:20:02.270,0:20:09.570
spotting, looking back and so on. So that[br]was a little weird. That same day at three
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o'clock in the night when my friends drove[br]me to the place where I was sleeping in a
0:20:13.600,0:20:19.280
one way street, there was still a car[br]following us, even in the one way street.
0:20:19.280,0:20:25.990
So actually he had to turn back and so on.[br]That was no more covert surveillance. That
0:20:25.990,0:20:33.860
was already at the edge to intimidation.[br]And then over the next months, I started
0:20:33.860,0:20:39.030
to have new favorites, but not only in[br]England, also in other countries that I
0:20:39.030,0:20:44.620
would see homeless looking like people on[br]the street level sitting there begging or
0:20:44.620,0:20:50.790
leaning to some buildings. And at some[br]point I had to realize that the cheap
0:20:50.790,0:20:55.130
plastic bags that they were wearing were[br]just a cover for cameras that were
0:20:55.130,0:21:00.420
actually with Zoom and digital getting[br]into my direction. And so that felt a
0:21:00.420,0:21:08.110
little, um. And so the idea of this[br]measures meant, if you look at their
0:21:08.110,0:21:12.680
manuals, which you'll find somehow in the[br]Internet, is that the difference between
0:21:12.680,0:21:16.570
discovered surveillance, which is to find[br]out where you are and to open
0:21:16.570,0:21:22.410
surveillance, which I call intimidation[br]surveillance. The idea is you create in
0:21:22.410,0:21:29.070
the person in this case and yeah, for me,[br]a state of distress. So you like
0:21:29.070,0:21:34.170
constantly having this, like, you know,[br]looking around and you obviously have the
0:21:34.170,0:21:39.170
idea that something is going on and they[br]let you know. They want to let you know
0:21:39.170,0:21:50.450
and that's a little weird. So in April[br]2018, exiting in March 2018, I brought one
0:21:50.450,0:21:58.260
of my Cryptophones, in this case a desk[br]phone based on a SIP phone called Snom 870
0:21:58.260,0:22:04.940
back to our workshop here to repair. The[br]display had been exposed to heat and got a
0:22:04.940,0:22:12.630
little melted. It's not so super high[br]quality LCD display, so I wanted just to
0:22:12.630,0:22:17.900
replace the display. So I opened the thing[br]and I found actually a bug and that bug
0:22:17.900,0:22:22.610
turned out to be a very sophisticated[br]thing. So there was a battery pack, there
0:22:22.610,0:22:29.290
was a shielded thing. Behind that shielded[br]thing there was a module that had been
0:22:29.290,0:22:36.460
soldered into. It was based on an FPGA,[br]some hardware crypto element. 16 GB of
0:22:36.460,0:22:41.030
flash ROM. It was completely passive. So I[br]wouldn't have found it in any sweep
0:22:41.030,0:22:47.970
because it just recorded whatever I talked[br]on that encrypted phone and would be
0:22:47.970,0:22:54.850
triggered by high frequency to send out[br]the recorded stuff, encrypted in a signal.
0:22:54.850,0:22:59.910
And you see here a URL to find more[br]pictures online. To give you an idea this
0:22:59.910,0:23:06.230
is the thing I found. This is how it[br]looked like at the beginning. The phone
0:23:06.230,0:23:12.130
itself has to PCB's one for the keyboards[br]and one for the connectors, processing and
0:23:12.130,0:23:18.510
so on. This was the modified version of[br]the keyboard PCB with this battery pack
0:23:18.510,0:23:25.170
in blue, the shielded module. And here[br]you get an idea of what was in there.
0:23:25.170,0:23:30.030
That's pretty high tech. We did, of[br]course, look into what exactly do we have
0:23:30.030,0:23:39.020
here, when were this chips produced, what[br]does it do and so on. But it's pretty
0:23:39.020,0:23:45.850
obvious that this is like for those who[br]have read the Snowden documents intensely,
0:23:45.850,0:23:50.070
it's what's called special collection[br]service. Inside there, there's a group
0:23:50.070,0:23:57.340
called a target access operations TAO, and[br]they work together with a thing called
0:23:57.340,0:24:03.760
PAG, the Physical Access Group because[br]someone and that was the thing, it was not
0:24:03.760,0:24:09.400
only built into this phone, that phone had[br]been, of course, in a locked room. And I
0:24:09.400,0:24:13.520
had to ask myself, OK, what happened here?[br]Here you see how they grabbed the audio
0:24:13.520,0:24:21.160
with a glued mini PCB from the other main[br]controller into their little technology.
0:24:21.160,0:24:26.830
And here you see a comparison picture, to[br]the right you see the original PCB
0:24:26.830,0:24:30.860
keyboard, which has almost nothing on it.[br]And to the left, you see the modified
0:24:30.860,0:24:40.710
version. A friend of mine made a bit of a[br]diagram and yeah, I'll just leave it for
0:24:40.710,0:24:45.990
you. You can review it later. I'll upload[br]these PDF slides, of course. So here's
0:24:45.990,0:24:52.320
some aspects of what was going through my[br]head over the time. Of course, the first
0:24:52.320,0:25:01.590
question was: How long was this there? No[br]idea. Could be years. Um, the components
0:25:01.590,0:25:10.600
we identified were produced around, oh no,[br]not earlier than April 2013. So if you
0:25:10.600,0:25:16.630
remember, Snowden came with his revelation[br]mid of 2013 roughly. And I've been working
0:25:16.630,0:25:21.840
for the Spiegel with others on the Snowden[br]documents next to that phone and
0:25:21.840,0:25:28.980
coordinating a lot of it in the year 2013.[br]So in theory, it could be even related to
0:25:28.980,0:25:35.110
that. Who knows. The dimensions such as[br]Kadian nonmetric origin, the antenna
0:25:35.110,0:25:43.520
would, you know, work in the range of 800[br]MHz. So you find a mentioning of a PDF
0:25:43.520,0:25:48.520
that tells you something about these[br]groups. But I did talk to some people who
0:25:48.520,0:25:54.880
do professional sweeping, meaning, looking[br]for audio bugs and so on in devices and
0:25:54.880,0:26:00.050
rooms. And they told me from the[br]experience of the Cold War until today,
0:26:00.050,0:26:05.100
the operation to bring something into a[br]room, into a device, that's quite an
0:26:05.100,0:26:09.540
effort because you need to secure, you[br]need to ensure you don't get caught and so
0:26:09.540,0:26:15.400
on. And so what you normally do is,[br]because technology can fail, is you do not
0:26:15.400,0:26:20.840
install one bug, you install at least two.[br]And the Cold War people told me, from the
0:26:20.840,0:26:25.721
elder generation, that the relationship[br]was one to eight, so that because
0:26:25.721,0:26:32.140
technology failed a lot back then.[br]However, that made me, of course, think,
0:26:32.140,0:26:37.810
OK, what else could there be? You know,[br]what can I do to find the rest and so on.
0:26:37.810,0:26:43.110
Does it even make sense? Can I secure all[br]the rooms that I use to work here and
0:26:43.110,0:26:49.380
there in such a way that I could be sure.[br]And of course, I can't be. So this was the
0:26:49.380,0:26:54.540
first hard confrontation with my own[br]cognitive dissonance, because all that
0:26:54.540,0:26:59.150
surveillance theater where I said, OK,[br]Julian has some trouble, I don't think I
0:26:59.150,0:27:02.620
had something to do with it. And when I[br]traveled to England, OK, they follow me,
0:27:02.620,0:27:07.890
you know, you get used to that kind of[br]things, but like something you can have in
0:27:07.890,0:27:13.850
your hand and that's outside of IT[br]incidents. That means that all your
0:27:13.850,0:27:20.200
encrypted communications have been[br]listened to. Well, that feels shitty. So
0:27:20.200,0:27:25.720
that's what I call a hot confrontation[br]with my own cognitive dissonance. The next
0:27:25.720,0:27:32.340
thing I want to talk about is very recent.[br]It's about one and a half months old now.
0:27:32.340,0:27:39.600
When here in Berlin, um, I went out[br]actually very early in the morning to get
0:27:39.600,0:27:43.810
some stuff from a grocery in a time of[br]pandemic when no one is in the shop at
0:27:43.810,0:27:48.830
seven or something in the morning. I come[br]back half an hour later and the key to my
0:27:48.830,0:27:55.700
apartment door does not fit in the[br]cylinder anymore. That felt a bit shitty.
0:27:55.700,0:28:02.320
Um, it was not a normal cylinder. It was a[br]so-called stealth cylinder. You might want
0:28:02.320,0:28:06.960
to look in the Internet what it is. It's a[br]Swiss company, it's doing nice keys that
0:28:06.960,0:28:12.540
you cannot photograph and copy because it[br]has inner elements with a sophisticated
0:28:12.540,0:28:20.210
mechanical, a way of opening. I did,[br]however, when I bumped into my door and
0:28:20.210,0:28:25.810
had to first I called my locksmith dude or[br]my friend from the lock picking industry,
0:28:25.810,0:28:34.300
I could say, who had advised me to buy[br]that cylinder. I talked with my lawyer and
0:28:34.300,0:28:38.560
we agreed it's a good idea to call the[br]police, to put it on the other list of
0:28:38.560,0:28:43.700
things they had collected until then. I[br]then realized that I had been followed
0:28:43.700,0:28:48.140
that morning, but I didn't take any[br]attention to it because I was just
0:28:48.140,0:28:52.560
walking, you know in half-automatic mode to the[br]grocery and there was a couple talking
0:28:52.560,0:28:57.890
such a bullshit. They will probably listen[br]to this talk and will remember the dialog.
0:28:57.890,0:29:03.400
It was just not making any sense, but I[br]was too polite to point it out. And they
0:29:03.400,0:29:08.190
were very closely. So it was not about[br]where I was going. It was about that I was
0:29:08.190,0:29:12.870
not at home. So they ensured that in the[br]time frame that I was there, the other
0:29:12.870,0:29:18.680
guys could operate and so on. Yeah, that[br]is an ongoing investigation. But I can
0:29:18.680,0:29:26.160
tell you, this is the next incident where[br]like cognitive dissonance and the illusion
0:29:26.160,0:29:30.700
you want to give this of, you know, I'm[br]not important in this game. Yeah. This
0:29:30.700,0:29:34.730
guy is following me here and there. And this[br]feels kind of different. This is no more
0:29:34.730,0:29:40.490
nice. Um, here's a little bit to get the[br]idea of the cylinder. You cannot really
0:29:40.490,0:29:45.790
see the object that was inserted. But at[br]the end, we didn't get it out. For
0:29:45.790,0:29:50.350
forensic reasons. We had to drill. Police[br]went through the apartment and so on.
0:29:50.350,0:29:58.810
Yeah. Another interesting day you can[br]have. Um, so here's some aspects that I
0:29:58.810,0:30:06.690
asked myself. Um, so was it even my[br]cylinder that I couldn't open? Maybe they
0:30:06.690,0:30:14.600
could not lockpick the original stealth cylinder[br]I had. They had to open it in a violent way.
0:30:14.600,0:30:21.570
They were in the apartment to whatever put[br]another bug in there. Um, but as they
0:30:21.570,0:30:25.711
couldn't replace it with the original[br]cylinder as they had destroyed it, like
0:30:25.711,0:30:31.700
they put another one in. And that's why my[br]key wasn't fitting. It's an option. Next
0:30:31.700,0:30:36.740
option: Was it maybe a trap to make me[br]replace the broken cylinder with a cheaper
0:30:36.740,0:30:43.360
one with a more simple one that they could[br]open then afterwards, when I was gone. The
0:30:43.360,0:30:50.590
next option, or maybe was it not about the[br]door at all? Was it maybe just to freak me
0:30:50.590,0:30:56.230
out? Um, of course it feels not so great[br]if you can't open your own apartment door
0:30:56.230,0:31:01.930
and so on. And the first question was, of[br]course: How much time did I spend that day
0:31:01.930,0:31:07.230
with, you know, with the police, drilling[br]open the door with all that kind of
0:31:07.230,0:31:16.100
things? It more or less cost me a day. And[br]what maybe happened to my machines,
0:31:16.100,0:31:22.630
meaning my computers, my other things,[br]maybe? Where was my attention not in that
0:31:22.630,0:31:27.380
time frame? Because it could be, was a[br]pure distraction thing. It would freak him
0:31:27.380,0:31:31.280
out a little bit. And while he's freaking[br]out, we do other things in his office or
0:31:31.280,0:31:38.000
whatever, I can't rule it out. And then of[br]course, I mean, the police sent me some
0:31:38.000,0:31:41.750
funny questions. I'm still working on[br]that, like, yeah, should I name Pompeo as
0:31:41.750,0:31:49.860
a suspect? Not sure, but maybe I should.[br]Discussing it with my lawyer and so on.
0:31:49.860,0:31:55.600
And also is it maybe related to the date?[br]This was the 3rd of November, just in case
0:31:55.600,0:31:59.400
to have it said the 3rd of November is the[br]election day, or was the election day in
0:31:59.400,0:32:03.740
the United States. And there were some[br]accusation that had something to do with
0:32:03.740,0:32:14.220
the election some years ago. Um, so[br]however, the next event, incident number
0:32:14.220,0:32:18.710
three, has to do with something that[br]happened in between, because on Monday,
0:32:18.710,0:32:23.330
the day before they messed up with my[br]door, I had shipped some documents to
0:32:23.330,0:32:29.260
Spain, I realized then. That was legal[br]documents that required me and a friend
0:32:29.260,0:32:35.170
going to the Spanish embassy. We gave[br]power of attorney and so on because we are
0:32:35.170,0:32:40.110
also accusing this company, UC Global,[br]which I talked about last year, which was
0:32:40.110,0:32:45.500
the company running the surveillance or[br]the protections/surveliance at the
0:32:45.500,0:32:48.910
beginning on behalf of the Ecuadorians in[br]that embassy and later turned out to be
0:32:48.910,0:32:55.680
working, for (inaudible)'s company or at[br]least having a site arrangement there,
0:32:55.680,0:32:59.070
which is still subject to an ongoing[br]lawsuit. And we participate in that
0:32:59.070,0:33:03.790
lawsuit because not only Julian was spied[br]on, everybody was spied on, who was
0:33:03.790,0:33:10.560
visiting him and so on. So I had shipped[br]documents on that Monday, almost six
0:33:10.560,0:33:16.480
o'clock on the local post office here by[br]DHL Express. I put that documents in a
0:33:16.480,0:33:21.740
sealed bag, that's like a bag was a serial[br]number and so on. That went together with
0:33:21.740,0:33:27.640
the describing list what's inside the bag[br]into a white envelope that again, I sealed
0:33:27.640,0:33:31.770
with, you know, seal tape. Then I gave[br]that to the post office. But they insisted
0:33:31.770,0:33:37.180
that it gets in a DHL Express back. That's[br]what you get for the 70 Euro to be
0:33:37.180,0:33:46.840
arriving within two days. So, yeah, the[br]stuff arrived on Wednesday, but all opened
0:33:46.840,0:33:53.510
and the Spanish lawyers freaked completely[br]out. They were very sure that this was a
0:33:53.510,0:33:59.850
meddling. You would see that it was sliced[br]open and so on. Yes. You see this funny
0:33:59.850,0:34:06.410
duct tape here called Zoll. But why would[br]the German customs open a document
0:34:06.410,0:34:11.200
shipment within Europe? That just not[br]makes a lot of sense. It's still on the
0:34:11.200,0:34:16.580
way to be checked. In theory, they could[br]do that. But also this incident has some
0:34:16.580,0:34:21.310
aspects. It's a breach of attorney client[br]privilege. That's why the Spanish lawyers
0:34:21.310,0:34:26.399
insisted as we bring this to a criminal[br]complaint. They did on their end right
0:34:26.399,0:34:32.550
when they received it and they made those[br]photos. So was German customs even
0:34:32.550,0:34:38.610
involved or was just their duct tape used[br]by some funny people. Why when I emailed
0:34:38.610,0:34:43.870
all this to my lawyer with the picture[br]sent to one, why did he not receive the
0:34:43.870,0:34:51.020
email until he realized on Monday that it[br]somehow ended in his trash? He also
0:34:51.020,0:34:56.710
freaked out. And then I talked with DHL of[br]course, I made a big fuss there and they
0:34:56.710,0:35:02.210
were like, no, we cannot tell you on which[br]legal grounds the shipment was opened. We
0:35:02.210,0:35:06.800
cannot tell you who did it. But if you[br]have an inquiry, why don't you send it to
0:35:06.800,0:35:11.620
the customs? So without giving me even[br]which customs entity it would be or
0:35:11.620,0:35:17.450
whatever. And again, of course, this is[br]kind of an interesting story, but I have
0:35:17.450,0:35:21.730
normally other priorities in my life. So[br]I'm asking myself, oh gosh, how many days
0:35:21.730,0:35:26.960
shall I waste here with finding out who[br]opened the fucking shipment. But, you
0:35:26.960,0:35:31.930
know, this is, again, the state of[br]distress. This is, again, the effort. And
0:35:31.930,0:35:36.340
it's, again, a reminder. We are after you.[br]We check your things. We don't like
0:35:36.340,0:35:43.790
your're suing the CIA, a suspected company[br]and so on and so on. So coming to a bit of
0:35:43.790,0:35:51.160
a conclusion of this talk, as we also want[br]to have time for questions and so on. I
0:35:51.160,0:35:54.190
want to talk about three aspects. The one[br]is the elephant in the room and the
0:35:54.190,0:36:01.610
problem of the missing socks. So at some[br]point, I don't want to say that I have
0:36:01.610,0:36:07.280
been completely not in a state of[br]distress. And so I don't know how this
0:36:07.280,0:36:13.250
affects my sanity and those people[br]surrounding me. So your cognitive systems
0:36:13.250,0:36:19.810
get kind of otherwise triggered and you[br]start to see these things everywhere. And
0:36:19.810,0:36:26.730
when then you wash some socks and it turns[br]out there's a sock missing. The other
0:36:26.730,0:36:32.270
person in my life was like, OK, CIA.[br]However, I did suspect the bed sheets and we
0:36:32.270,0:36:37.320
found one of the socks in a bed sheet. So[br]when you know, the problem is socks get in
0:36:37.320,0:36:40.820
the drum sometimes, Hanging, then you wash[br]something different then like a bed sheet
0:36:40.820,0:36:45.310
and a bed sheet is an excellent place to[br]hide things that have been in the drum.
0:36:45.310,0:36:50.330
Get into the bed sheet and you just try it[br]with it and you don't even realize it and
0:36:50.330,0:36:57.040
so on.. So while I'm a complete, I for[br]entertainment reasons and also for, you
0:36:57.040,0:37:02.020
know, you need to relax your brain in such[br]a situation once in a while, I'm totally
0:37:02.020,0:37:06.990
OK to say the CIA is responsible for[br]everything, including the missing socks,
0:37:06.990,0:37:11.620
but I suspect the bed sheet first and[br]realize that yes, this is a joke and this
0:37:11.620,0:37:18.200
is escapism and it helps you maybe to stay[br]sane for a little moment. But in the long
0:37:18.200,0:37:23.620
term, I don't know. So and that's the I[br]don't know part is the other two slides
0:37:23.620,0:37:27.130
that are coming now. So what should I do?[br]And I should invite some friends and
0:37:27.130,0:37:34.520
declare my office here like a laboratory[br]for surveillance. Yeah, it has been
0:37:34.520,0:37:38.110
before. I looked at one technology, but[br]this case is surveillance technology,
0:37:38.110,0:37:43.900
looking at me and my friends. So it's[br]slightly different. And it's maybe also
0:37:43.900,0:37:51.270
important to not get into some kind of[br]auto response mode when things happen.
0:37:51.270,0:37:55.200
Because I was thinking also, what the[br]fuck? Why are they doing all these things?
0:37:55.200,0:38:00.220
It cost them money. It costs them effort.[br]Is it to freak me out? Is it that they
0:38:00.220,0:38:06.560
think that like like like I'm seriously in[br]such an evil mode organization that, you
0:38:06.560,0:38:11.480
know, they will escalate things and I will[br]start to throw bombs at the U.S. Embassy
0:38:11.480,0:38:18.650
or I don't know. I have no idea what their[br]idea is, but I just try to stay like slow
0:38:18.650,0:38:27.720
motion and think about it. The next aspect[br]is how ever do I infect other people? And
0:38:27.720,0:38:32.270
now I'm not talking about my paranoia or[br]my situational awareness, as I would call
0:38:32.270,0:38:40.750
it, which, of course, at some point it's[br]ongoing and it's no more sometimes. But
0:38:40.750,0:38:48.080
when I talk with normal people, with other[br]journalist, with people I deal with for
0:38:48.080,0:38:55.630
normal things, and they visit me and we do[br]whatever kind of social things, like
0:38:55.630,0:38:59.750
normal things, like having food. And[br]afterwards, the way they call me a day
0:38:59.750,0:39:04.840
later and say, oh, finally my phone[br]started rebooting twice yesterday and
0:39:04.840,0:39:09.860
these kind of things so that you think,[br]OK, it's not my paranoia that is
0:39:09.860,0:39:15.510
infectious. It's actually they obviously[br]want to not only know what kind of people
0:39:15.510,0:39:18.960
I'm dealing with and look into their[br]technology, they also want to freak them
0:39:18.960,0:39:27.080
out. So this is not cool. And it also[br]means that the type of ignorance you could
0:39:27.080,0:39:31.950
normally apply and say, well, ignorance is[br]a bliss. Come on, let's have have a nice
0:39:31.950,0:39:38.420
day and forget about all this. That's kind[br]of limited. That's no more an option. Um,
0:39:38.420,0:39:44.050
and also while I've been dealing with that[br]type of stress and that type of thing for
0:39:44.050,0:39:51.040
a while now, and I can say, yeah, well,[br]that's how it is. And, um, it doesn't mean
0:39:51.040,0:39:56.030
that everybody dealing with you can do[br]that. There's people that are seriously
0:39:56.030,0:40:02.440
freaked out by such a situation and it[br]creates fear, it creates anger, stress and
0:40:02.440,0:40:08.060
so on. So that's not cool. So, um, my last[br]slide that ends up with a question to you
0:40:08.060,0:40:14.882
guys is how to get out of this mess. So,[br]you know, option one, I managed to get
0:40:14.882,0:40:20.810
proper authorities to make the CIA stop[br]acting illegal. OK, I heard the laughing.
0:40:20.810,0:40:27.930
I know this is ridiculous, but, you know,[br]it would be so beautiful. Justice
0:40:27.930,0:40:32.630
prevails. The German authorities, the[br]European ones pick it up. I finally
0:40:32.630,0:40:35.940
managed to escalate it to the[br]Generalbundesanwaltschaft. And I do not
0:40:35.940,0:40:39.550
have to talk with the German intelligence[br]services as I'm not sure they would be
0:40:39.550,0:40:47.680
helpful in this game. And they make the[br]stop, the CIA stop acting illegal and
0:40:47.680,0:40:52.830
against me and the other person[br]surrounding beautiful dream. But OK, not
0:40:52.830,0:40:59.690
very realistic. Maybe option two, Pompeo[br]realizes Jesus loves WikiLeaks and
0:40:59.690,0:41:04.680
whatever shall become true will become[br]true. He reads it on the Bible. Pompeo
0:41:04.680,0:41:08.890
seems to me if you look at his Twitter[br]account, reasonable believe in Jesus
0:41:08.890,0:41:13.830
Christ and all that thing. So he realizes[br]it's all wrongdoing against Julian,
0:41:13.830,0:41:20.040
WikiLeaks and all the people targeted in[br]that context and stops it. I know. OK,
0:41:20.040,0:41:26.930
shit happens. What? But if that's[br]realistic, I don't know. You tell me. And
0:41:26.930,0:41:31.460
the third option. I don't know. Maybe you[br]have some ideas. And that's my question to
0:41:31.460,0:41:39.190
you at the audience and that's the end of[br]my prepared part of the talk.
0:41:39.190,0:41:47.940
Herald: And with these words. Thank you,[br]Andy, for the brilliant talk. In the
0:41:47.940,0:41:53.250
meantime, I received some messages. A[br]third option would be to have a great
0:41:53.250,0:41:59.430
vinyard, vinyard. Sorry, I personally[br]Andy: Yes, yes it's completely right. I
0:41:59.430,0:42:02.780
considered actually maybe I should do[br]something with goats, become a farmer or,
0:42:02.780,0:42:08.800
you know, yeah, there's these options. But[br]I thought before I give it up and find my
0:42:08.800,0:42:14.640
way on the countryside, I outsource the[br]problem to the community and see what they
0:42:14.640,0:42:20.020
think.[br]Herald: In the meantime, I think there is
0:42:20.020,0:42:28.090
plenty of time for a great white wine, but[br]to our questions, we have indeed plenty of
0:42:28.090,0:42:33.400
questions. The first question would be: How[br]would you compare the surveillance of the
0:42:33.400,0:42:40.170
CIA or other to surveillance of the DDR?[br]So for the Deutsche Demokratische
0:42:40.170,0:42:45.100
Republik.[br]Andy: Well, I'm born in Hamburg in West
0:42:45.100,0:42:50.630
Germany. I lived in East Germany when the[br]government was already falling into
0:42:50.630,0:42:57.920
pieces. It was technically still there. So[br]I'm not the best person to compare it. But
0:42:57.920,0:43:04.210
I did talk with a person I know who worked[br]for the foreign intelligence services
0:43:04.210,0:43:08.130
because there was, you know I simplified[br]here, of course, the incidents a little
0:43:08.130,0:43:13.619
bit. There was one scene when later I went[br]into my kitchen that day when my door lock
0:43:13.619,0:43:19.960
got tampered with and I found a blue[br]plastic glove and I don't have blue
0:43:19.960,0:43:24.420
plastic gloves. And I asked my locksmith[br]guy, he was like, no, it's not for me. And
0:43:24.420,0:43:28.830
the police had black ones. So I thought,[br]what the fuck? Maybe the guys have been
0:43:28.830,0:43:32.510
inside the apartment, which I didn't[br]thought earlier because of a second look
0:43:32.510,0:43:38.800
and the police checked and so on. Um, and[br]then I talked to discuss it with this
0:43:38.800,0:43:43.490
person I know. He's a quite friendly man,[br]was working in the foreign intelligence of
0:43:43.490,0:43:48.610
that country. And so and he was like, you[br]know, you have to look at it from a cost
0:43:48.610,0:43:54.000
effectiveness point of view, like that[br]piece of plastic costs you ten cents,
0:43:54.000,0:43:59.650
nothing, and it freaks you out three[br]months. So see how much how cost effective
0:43:59.650,0:44:07.430
it is. And I mean, that's a good aspect.[br]That's a good point. And so I think that
0:44:07.430,0:44:12.830
the East German Stasi, the guys, the East[br]intelligence guys, they also they knew
0:44:12.830,0:44:18.110
very well the difference. And they had[br]both instruments in there, you know, in
0:44:18.110,0:44:24.390
their program to either do covert[br]surveillance really like not let you know.
0:44:24.390,0:44:29.640
And the department for "we let him know[br]and see how he reacts" or "we let him know
0:44:29.640,0:44:34.840
because he's ongoing doing things that we[br]want him to, you know, stop it and get
0:44:34.840,0:44:39.400
intimidated". And so on, and get scared[br]maybe or his wife gets scared or this kind
0:44:39.400,0:44:48.180
of thing. So I think it is comparable.[br]Herald: Cool. Well, not cool. Speaking of
0:44:48.180,0:44:54.210
covert versus overt civilians. [br]As you now know, does it still
0:44:54.210,0:45:00.540
bother you emotionally?[br]Andy: Um, well, what bothers me sometimes
0:45:00.540,0:45:06.420
is, you know, it's also it has a sometimes[br]it's nice to be alone and it's sometimes
0:45:06.420,0:45:14.150
nice to not think about the CIA guys being[br]in the apartment next door or in my case,
0:45:14.150,0:45:21.720
an apartment under me or in the[br]surrounding environments. Um, but thinking
0:45:21.720,0:45:27.720
about normal things like playing a puzzle[br]or seeing some funny spy movies. Oh,
0:45:27.720,0:45:35.030
that's almost relaxing. No, seriously, at[br]some point it sucks a little bit. I get my
0:45:35.030,0:45:41.580
kind of deal with it. But I mean, this[br]20/20 era has of course, complicated or
0:45:41.580,0:45:46.790
has made it almost impossible to travel.[br]So normally I escape my intensity of my
0:45:46.790,0:45:54.080
work situation with travels. Maybe I can[br]do that this year. So it feels a little
0:45:54.080,0:46:00.410
more intense and annoys a little bit.[br]And I would like to get these guys out of
0:46:00.410,0:46:05.150
my life and do something useful with their[br]life or whatever.
0:46:05.150,0:46:17.450
Herald: Now, the next question, he or she[br]or the person or creature probably missed
0:46:17.450,0:46:20.930
it: Do you dissemble all your devices on a[br]regular basis?
0:46:20.930,0:46:29.740
Andy: No, I usually do just regular and[br]seal them. In this case, the seal had
0:46:29.740,0:46:35.410
an issue with with the heat as well. So,[br]and I was lousy on checking it. I have to
0:46:35.410,0:46:42.360
say so. Yes, that's something. I mean, if[br]you have one office, you can do that. I
0:46:42.360,0:46:48.530
tend to work on different continents even,[br]and that turned out to be a bit of an
0:46:48.530,0:46:53.880
issue. So, yes, you need to have safes[br]everywhere and seals and duh, duh, duh,
0:46:53.880,0:47:01.230
duh. But even then, you know, Pompeo[br]seems to have justified or have given
0:47:01.230,0:47:07.490
orders to do these things no matter the[br]costs. And my expectation to have like a
0:47:07.490,0:47:15.630
"private" or "secure" encrypted channel so[br]is very limited for a while, watching that
0:47:15.630,0:47:20.730
effort. The encryption of the cryptophone[br]obviously was good. Otherwise they
0:47:20.730,0:47:25.980
wouldn't have had the effort to, you know,[br]build something in. But at the end of the
0:47:25.980,0:47:33.210
day, for me, it has the same impact. It's[br]like, well, you know, it's a phone, it's a
0:47:33.210,0:47:38.400
piece of device, it's in a room. The room[br]has windows. We've seen what they've done
0:47:38.400,0:47:44.040
with the embassy windows and so on. So[br]it's like, yeah, security. What a nice
0:47:44.040,0:47:51.140
idea, but it doesn't really exist.[br]Herald: Yeah. Do you try giving a few
0:47:51.140,0:47:57.260
coins to the homeless looking people to do[br]either some reverse intimidation or good
0:47:57.260,0:48:03.869
deed if they are not CIA?[br]Andy: Yeah, that's, I mean, I had this one
0:48:03.869,0:48:11.550
particular situation where I was waiting[br]for someone on kind of a shopping street,
0:48:11.550,0:48:18.570
and I just said something is wrong with[br]the guy. But when I saw the camera and saw
0:48:18.570,0:48:24.060
and he also rushed away. So, no, I didn't[br]give them the money. The second
0:48:24.060,0:48:31.070
scenario... No, but it's a good idea. Um,[br]the thing is, what I started to do is to
0:48:31.070,0:48:35.890
always have a camera with me. That turns[br]out for me to be important, to be able to
0:48:35.890,0:48:40.800
document things. And also most of them,[br]except the British, don't like it when
0:48:40.800,0:48:45.250
they are being photographed. And you[br]either, they, it's very interesting
0:48:45.250,0:48:49.430
because normal people do realize when they[br]are being photographed. But these guys are
0:48:49.430,0:48:54.610
either pretending, no, I don't see that[br]you photograph me. You know, they look a
0:48:54.610,0:49:01.700
little bit with too much energy away from[br]it or they are seriously disturbed and go
0:49:01.700,0:49:05.060
away.[br]Herald: So the best solution would be to
0:49:05.060,0:49:09.630
have the boldest, biggest, largest camera[br]always in hand.
0:49:09.630,0:49:14.340
Andy: Yeah, let me say it like this. I[br]mean, I've not been a fan of surveillance
0:49:14.340,0:49:21.150
technology and for sure not of CCTV for a[br]long part of my life. But I start to like
0:49:21.150,0:49:27.350
the idea of CCTV at some places in my own[br]environment. I'm sorry to say that, but
0:49:27.350,0:49:31.590
there's compromises you can make like[br]surveil feet, you know, other parts you
0:49:31.590,0:49:37.110
don't always need the faces. If you need[br]the faces , yeah there's options.
0:49:37.110,0:49:43.280
Herald: And still, analog photography is a[br]great thing. But that's my personal
0:49:43.280,0:49:48.870
opinion. Um. You maybe you want to, you[br]can talk, maybe you cannot talk about: Do
0:49:48.870,0:49:54.190
you use other counter measurements you[br]want to talk about or can talk about?
0:49:54.190,0:49:58.960
Andy: You know, I obviously don't want to[br]talk about it. But I mean, I've been, um.
0:49:58.960,0:50:09.330
But I was wondering myself how, um, why I[br]had this rather intense things going on. I
0:50:09.330,0:50:13.680
mean, I was wondering, is it the time[br]frame? Is it me as a person? It might have
0:50:13.680,0:50:20.320
to do with actually being in this funny[br]scene? Of course, I've learned. I mean, I
0:50:20.320,0:50:25.470
know lock picking persons, I've always had[br]an eye on having good locks based on their
0:50:25.470,0:50:30.380
advice, and understanding how easy it[br]would be otherwise. And using encryption
0:50:30.380,0:50:37.980
was also not always about, like, hiding[br]something. It was just good practice of
0:50:37.980,0:50:43.450
having privacy and operational security.[br]So for me, that was very normal for many
0:50:43.450,0:50:48.150
years to do that. And maybe, you know,[br]compared to other persons, that made me
0:50:48.150,0:50:54.480
more interesting. I don't know. I'll find[br]out one day. But I think it's a good idea
0:50:54.480,0:50:59.520
for everybody involved to think about[br]these three aspects: physical security,
0:50:59.520,0:51:06.430
encryption, and also what kind of ways do[br]you have to realize if something is being
0:51:06.430,0:51:08.630
tampered with.[br]Herald: Yeah -
0:51:08.630,0:51:13.490
Andy: And that's not necessarily[br]monitoring. I mean, monitoring can help,
0:51:13.490,0:51:17.570
but on the other hand side, yeah, with[br]monitoring systems, they can also deal
0:51:17.570,0:51:22.090
with.[br]Herald: Like physical checksums(?), kind
0:51:22.090,0:51:28.300
of. Our next question: Do you ask the[br]police at the border if everything is
0:51:28.300,0:51:33.950
prepared now?[br]Andy: You know, the British border,
0:51:33.950,0:51:38.470
probably that's a reference to, I don't[br]travel to the UK anymore. I decided, you
0:51:38.470,0:51:43.200
know, after they dealt with Julian there,[br]I don't like that place anymore. I never
0:51:43.200,0:51:49.840
felt so well there. And actually, maybe I[br]forgot to mention that, after this kind of
0:51:49.840,0:51:55.920
treatment at the border started I also[br]started avoiding sleeping in the UK. So I
0:51:55.920,0:52:01.200
made day trips sometimes, in order to get[br]the last plane out of the country. I was
0:52:01.200,0:52:05.100
flying to Zürich first, because it was a[br]late flight to Zürich and then the next
0:52:05.100,0:52:09.650
morning to Berlin. I felt in Zürich better[br]at the bar of a shitty hotel than in
0:52:09.650,0:52:16.000
London Central City with, yeah, this[br]special relationship, as it's called,
0:52:16.000,0:52:21.280
between the intelligence of the UK and[br]those of the US.
0:52:21.280,0:52:28.790
Herald: I see. Speaking of sleeping, or in[br]this case concerning your apartment, the
0:52:28.790,0:52:33.730
question would be: Would some home[br]surveillance system bring some relief, for
0:52:33.730,0:52:37.260
example?[br]Andy: Well, that's like, that's like
0:52:37.260,0:52:42.720
exchanging the devil with the other dude,[br]right? I mean, no, I'm not really a fan of
0:52:42.720,0:52:46.610
that. But yes, of course, I had to at the[br]end of the day, at least check with my
0:52:46.610,0:52:55.480
door and so on, what I can do to detect[br]and record things and so on. But it's not
0:52:55.480,0:53:00.640
a pleasure. It's not like, I don't know. I[br]mean, yes, you end up doing that kind of
0:53:00.640,0:53:03.920
shit. But that's not how life on planet[br]Earth should be.
0:53:03.920,0:53:10.550
Herald: Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a kind of a[br]trade off, for what return. And yeah -
0:53:10.550,0:53:14.830
Andy: I mean, the thing is, I mean, look,[br]I'm a German citizen. What I'm doing is
0:53:14.830,0:53:19.940
constitutionally protected. I live in the[br]governmental district of Berlin. It's
0:53:19.940,0:53:26.080
fairly safe here. But, you know, I have[br]friends in other places, other situations,
0:53:26.080,0:53:34.270
their life is completely different there,[br]and that is more what worries me. That I'm
0:53:34.270,0:53:37.869
in a relatively cool position, secure[br]position. That's why I can talk about
0:53:37.869,0:53:43.221
these things. But I have friends who have[br]a more severe situation and they are not
0:53:43.221,0:53:48.220
sure they should talk about it, to not[br]escalate things. And that's a very tricky
0:53:48.220,0:53:56.250
choice to make, maybe.[br]Herald: Yes, indeed. Um, that brings us to
0:53:56.250,0:54:02.290
another question. And I think this is a[br]perfect point to mention that. Can we do -
0:54:02.290,0:54:06.830
What can we do to support you in getting[br]out of this mess? And what can we do in
0:54:06.830,0:54:10.240
general for this?[br]Andy: While I really appreciate the
0:54:10.240,0:54:16.119
question, I don't have a good answer. But[br]I think, yes, I would like to discuss more
0:54:16.119,0:54:22.710
with people about what can be done. I[br]mean, for the moment, I'm dealing with
0:54:22.710,0:54:29.890
police, with lawyers, the Spiegel guys I'm[br]working with, they also find some ways
0:54:29.890,0:54:37.240
maybe to address it. Um, but it seems like[br]at least if it comes to Julian's
0:54:37.240,0:54:42.410
situation, things are, yeah, badly[br]escalated and it's all a bit interrelated.
0:54:42.410,0:54:49.340
So I don't have a good answer at this[br]moment, but I think it's a good idea to
0:54:49.340,0:54:55.720
discuss it more and also maybe identifying[br]other people who are in some kind of a
0:54:55.720,0:55:01.060
risk situation because these things[br]happened. And so maybe, hopefully was able
0:55:01.060,0:55:05.940
to show it's not that difficult to get[br]into such a mess. It's - it happens.
0:55:05.940,0:55:11.160
Herald: Yeah, and speaking of discussing,[br]you mentioned earlier, there is a Big Blue
0:55:11.160,0:55:17.210
Button to discuss any further. You will[br]find it in the 2D area, in the 2D world in
0:55:17.210,0:55:21.850
the Whistleblower Wiki. Is that right?[br]Andy: Yes. In the tent, actually, I was
0:55:21.850,0:55:26.710
told. In the tent is the URL to the Big[br]Blue Button or somehow it's interlinked
0:55:26.710,0:55:32.300
there.[br]Herald: So again, please go out, explore
0:55:32.300,0:55:37.599
the 2D world. And of course, the[br]whistleblower tent. We still have some
0:55:37.599,0:55:45.330
minutes left. How do you do mentally? Did[br]you use any method to keep your head clean
0:55:45.330,0:55:52.520
or clear and, did you freak out?[br]Andy: Yeah, that's a good question. Um. I
0:55:52.520,0:56:00.490
drink too much vodka, but I try to keep[br]it with good quality. Um, let me say it
0:56:00.490,0:56:08.599
like this. The real trouble is maybe that[br]while in this scene here, people have a
0:56:08.599,0:56:18.230
rough understanding of this type of things[br]already. Um, I also liked to have, to be
0:56:18.230,0:56:22.400
around with people who have nothing to do[br]with IT, with security, with all these
0:56:22.400,0:56:28.100
kind of things. So-called normal people.[br]Sometimes it's refreshing to be with them,
0:56:28.100,0:56:38.400
but their ability to understand this mess[br]is a little bit limited. So it's, I think
0:56:38.400,0:56:43.320
others judge better how I'm doing[br]mentally. I'm trying to keep my head up
0:56:43.320,0:56:50.650
and finding a good way out. But if anyone[br]has a good idea, I am really all for
0:56:50.650,0:56:57.160
listening and see what's possible.[br]Herald: In this case. I can can come back
0:56:57.160,0:57:03.810
to the vineyard and it's pretty relaxing[br]to have work in the late autumn.
0:57:03.810,0:57:11.330
Andy: All right. Even during a pandemic.[br]OK, you just find a way there. Yeah.
0:57:11.330,0:57:16.520
Herald: It's outside and it's a lot of[br]distance between the people. I think this
0:57:16.520,0:57:21.740
will work. So the last question: Red or[br]white wine?
0:57:21.740,0:57:26.350
Andy: Red, red wine.[br]Herald: Red.
0:57:26.350,0:57:32.050
Andy: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, thanks[br]for all this. Just to point out, please,
0:57:32.050,0:57:36.200
we also have to work on to getting Julian[br]out there and others who are in this mess
0:57:36.200,0:57:41.511
who can't even talk about it. I really[br]appreciate the opportunity to talk to you
0:57:41.511,0:57:48.470
guys, but it's also about the others. And[br]let us get Julian out here, please. Out
0:57:48.470,0:57:52.490
that shit there.[br]Herald: With these great words, Andy,
0:57:52.490,0:58:00.700
thanks for your time. Thanks for being[br]here at the remote chaos. As mentioned, we
0:58:00.700,0:58:07.130
still have the opportunity to ask you some[br]questions in the whistleblower tent. And
0:58:07.130,0:58:16.229
with this, have a nice evening. Try to[br]relax and see you latest - next time.
0:58:16.229,0:58:18.730
Andy: Goodbye.
0:58:18.730,0:58:39.220
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0:58:39.220,0:58:57.310
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