[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Today on The Big Questions,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Should we be proud of the British Empire?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Good Morning
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am Nikki Campbell.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Welcome to The Big Questions today!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are at the Oasis Academy Media City UK,\Nin Salford
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to debate one very big question.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Should we be proud of the British Empire?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Welcome everybody to The Big Questions.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, the British Empire once covered\N13 million square miles
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and held sway over 458 million people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was the largest empire in history.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The extent of its territories across\Nall the continents colored the maps pink
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and created an empire on which\Nthe sun truly never set
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but across the 20th century\Nits power waned
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most of its nearest\Nneighbour island fought
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and won the right to self-rule in 1922.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The imperial jewel in the crown.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,India and Pakistan gained\Nindependence in 1947.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Britain's new impotence was evident\Nover sewers in 1956
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then country after country
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Africa, the Caribbean and the far east
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went their own way.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All it's left
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the British commonwealth
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,plus a few wind swept outposts
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and tax havens.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Looking back now, was the British Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something to swell our chests with pride
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or something to be deeply ashamed of ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, we've gathered together
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,entrepreneurs, historians, faith leaders\Ncommentators and activists
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from across the commonwealth\Nto debate that question
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you can join in too on\NTwitter or online
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Big Questions!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and following the link\Nto the online discussion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,plus there will be lots of encouragement\Nand contributions
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from our very lively and\Nintelligent Salford audience.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Should we be proud of the British Empire?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Good morning everybody.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Charles Allen, historian and writer,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lord Curzon, viceroy of India\Nfor it was he said,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"The empire was a supreme force\Nfor good in the world."
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes he says "it was the greatest\Ninstitution in the world has ever seen:
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he said, "to me the message is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hew in rock and hew in stone,\Nour work is righteous and it shall endure"
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and of course because it didn't endure
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and really the question is\Nwas it righteous ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Was it righteous ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think we we have to say\Nthis is like the 'curate's egg'
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's good in parts.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I also think we need to clarify\Nthere are two definite models here
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and going back\Nto the Greeks and the Romans,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Greeks concept of imperialism \Nwas the colony.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Your little island is not big enough so \Nyou had to find somewhere else to live.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you move, settle and\Nbecome independent.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The other model, of course\Nthis is the one that really
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I suspect is what upsets us
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the other model like Rome\Nwhere you become extremely predatory.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You attack the Sabines and\Nyou take their women,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you attack the Etruscans and\Nyou gradually expand
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and eventually you end up\Nexploiting a weaker nation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which model were we ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are a mix of both precisely.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have got places like\NCanada and Australia
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and indeed America I suppose you could say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where in a sense the local population\Nwas not big enough to resist.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But look, you mentioned Australia
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Look at the the genocide\Nof the Tasmanian people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What we did to the Aboriginals and Maoris
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and look at the atrocities
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do they not outweigh any good\Nthat may have come from
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean look I mean\Nit's a hall of shame, Charles.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Bengal famine 1769-73 under the aegis
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the East India Company that\N10 million people died
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of willful incompetence.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Massacres that Amritsar and
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean atrocities in Kenya\Nrelatively recently
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how can we be in any way proud ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think by today's standards we cannot!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Today's standards!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But nevertheless what we have to do\Nwhen we actually look at it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly me as a historian
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have to set in some kind of context
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if we talk about British-India\Nwe have to say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what was that before the British came
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what was in other parts of the world\Nwhen the British were there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what legacy did they leave
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and really it's there that we can pick out
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what to me are straws because my family\Nthey deeply involved in British India.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My father was one of the last\Nof the civil service to rule over India.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I actually I am a\Nchild of the empire.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I saw it in action
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I saw in a sense the best to it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because here I saw one man
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my memories of him are very strong
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sitting on the veranda
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as it were dispensing justice
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,paternalistic
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you called might call it\Ndictotorial,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,impartial justice
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on a model that seemed to work very well.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But as i said,\Nthat is the good aspect
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but of course there are other aspects too.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are, and we shall explore
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at both sides of the imperial coin
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as we proceed.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dr. Anita Ghosh it's interesting
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what Charles says there is interesting
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's all about the context
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and perhaps, we are rather value-led,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we look at the past,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and value-led history\Nis bad history.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There were atrocities
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there were appalling things.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What were the good things ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, the good things were also there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and like Charles I agree it is,\Nit's hard to do draw any line there.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are we are we are organized\Nin the form of a debate today
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we are encouraged to take sides.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, listen, listen,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can agree with each other that's fine.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're looking for a genuine enlightenment.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in terms of the good things
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the infrastructure\Nthat was left behind
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the British in India
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which were built for reasons\Nof exploitation,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for reasons of extraction of resources.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No altruism.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No altruism there whatsoever.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the byproducts I think\Nis the infrastructure
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was left behind of the empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which you could say gave India\Nan added benefit in 1947
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which propelled us into the modern age
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I see that as a byproduct of empire.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is as if it was put in place there\Nfor the good of the people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean the railways for instance\Nwhich are very often cited
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as one of the best things\Nthat the British left behind
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were there for the\Nextraction of resources.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you look at the way the railways\Nwere planned in the 19th century
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were directly connecting\Nthe ports to the hinterlands
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was the sole purpose.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They were not connecting cities,\Nthey were not connecting towns
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were not connecting people\Nto pilgrimage centres
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where people would have loved to go to
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they were built in a\Nstrategic way
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,functioning as arteries of extraction.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When you look back as
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And exploitation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, and exploitation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When you look back as a\NBritish Indian are you angry ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, I am.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What you most angry about ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The way empire functioned,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the way it was set up
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was a hugely unequal power structure.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A sovereign state went in to invade\Nanother sovereign state
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by virtue of its military might
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by virtue of its economic power
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that fundamentally was unfair
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and everything else that\Nemerges out of that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a direct a result of that process.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So at the at the moment,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the moment at which\Nhistorians have
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as I am sure some\Nof my colleagues would know
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,historians have called this\Nthe absent-minded empire.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was not an absent-minded empire.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People went in knowing what they wanted.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was it was very well structured,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very well organized
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,otherwise how could a handful of people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from millions of miles away
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,construct such an effective system
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was the British empire in India ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,David Vance what are you proud of ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I am proud of the British empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think just if you look at it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the general context of in 1897
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the year of queen\NVictoria's silver jubilee.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Britain controlled about\N25 percent of the world.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What a remarkable achievement\Nfor these little islands!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the fact is that were this\Nan audience of Italians
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,celebrating the Roman empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or an audience of Spanish.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They would be proud of their empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we are not supposed to be.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, is there anything\Nyou are ashamed of ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,From a 2016 perspective lots!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you just said Nicky that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you're going to have revisionist\Nhistory that's very bad history.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the time in the moment
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the British empire achieved lots of good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it leaves legacies\Nwhich bring lots of good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that needs to be said loud and clear.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The revisionist argument trying to\Napply our standards in 2016
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to things that happened\Nhundreds of years ago
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in my mind, is folly.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People horrified at the time\Nabout many of these crimes
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you know to give an example\NIreland that half its population
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either died or fled because of the potato\Nfamine in the 19th century.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whether it be, there's a brilliant book
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by guy called Mike Davis called\Nlate victorian holocaust.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It looks at how when tens of millions\Nof indians were starving to death
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the middle of the 19th century
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The British were exporting grain
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and leaving them to starve these are\Ncrimes of historical proportions.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what I am frustrated about this debate
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is we talk about the you know we\Nhave so much actually to be proud of
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in our history that we don't talk about
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the people who fought\Nfor our rights and freedoms
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people who fought\Nfor the right to vote
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the welfare state against racism
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against homophobia for\Ntrade union rights workers rights
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's a history we should be proud of
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not a history of subjugating\Nthe world and invading it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't going into other people's countries
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,taking their resources subjugating them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very often dehumanizing them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and very often killing them.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yes empires rise and empires fall !
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No empire to the best of my knowledge\Nhas been ever perfect
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,none of them has provided utopia
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's plenty like the soviet\Nempire for example
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that have provided nothing but\Nthe genocide of millions of people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think as empires go the British Empire\Nwas generally speaking reasonably benign
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think to characterize it\Nin the way that you say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for example ignoring the fact that were\Nit not for the the royal navy
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the slave trade have ended
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,well it's funny you should say that because of truth charles allen actually i'll tell you what i'll save you charles allen because anandita i saw you a couple of times wanted to come back in
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You were talking about value system
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think that's absolutely essential
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in our sitting in judgment of our empire today
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and like you said you know what was going on then
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the late 19th century in Africa
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the mama massacres and everything.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These are contemporary\Nconcerns of those times
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where this is where we need\Nto make a distinction
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between the Roman Empire\Nand the British Empire.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Post enlightenment given\Nthis is the post-humanist period.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are talking of an age of liberalism,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we are talking from an age of humanism.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How could empire be justified\Neven by those contemporary standards ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is not a 21st century inflection
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of our values onto the\Nempire in those days
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but by contemporary standards\Nthis is post-humanism.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can i talk about it Charles you can
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and there is a lady right behind you\Nare you are you deferring
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes of course I am I will be with you right up
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,good morning
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well the values and truth remains truth
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether it's in 18th century or 21st century.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One human should not exploit\Nanother human full stop.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So whether it happened in 18th century\Nor 19th century or today.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So i would say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is an absolute truth.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is an absolute truth.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But Charles Charles
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know Empire the default position of history
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we are all, the legacy of some empire everyone on the planet is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have the Roman Empire Venetian Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Arab Empire, the slave trade, the Islamic Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean on it goes should we be beating ourselves up about this ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Obviously if you look at history it is essentially the exploitation of man by man
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The party humans are strong
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So really you have a question\Nof what imperatives
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now if I can just look at the 18th century
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is when the British come onto the map in India
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now we have two three empires essentially
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have our Auranzeb the last of the Mughal Emperors
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now he tries to rule India with one standard law which actually happens to be sharia
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He brings in a whole series of rules
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which essentially discriminate against the Hindus.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now the other model we have are the Sikhs.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh are trying again
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are essentially nevertheless a predatory empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're expanding and they again have another model
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which essentially draws on an even earlier system which is the caste system.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The cast system now I Sikhks would disagree with me I suspect.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But when I do this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have the Hindu model.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hindu model is deeply racist
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Did we exploit the caste system or did we try to exploit the caste system.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What I am saying is that when the Brits come in
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the British do try and have the idea that the law applies to all equally.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is a new model in the Indian context
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that there are advantages in that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is today to this day the indian penal code
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is developed by Macaulay in the 1830s
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it just still functions today.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right Jagraj you com in here
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Andre i'll be right with you.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mentioned the caste system there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you sort of were agreeing with the as i posited
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fact that it was exploited by the British ruling elite
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jagras first of all what's your when you look back at the British Empire what what do you think what are your feelings
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I grew up in India\Ntill I was about eleven.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I can tell you that just coming back to the point there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fact is that now a lot of the voices
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that were unheard\Nare coming out into the form.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So when we look back now\Nit's from a balanced
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more balanced viewpoint.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We can look back and hear the voice\Nof those that were actually exploited
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we can realize actually you know it wasn't so good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and here what we're seeing now
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the propaganda.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it was all designed to make people here feel good that actually this was a force for good and that that that viewpoint has endured
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though it wasn't real even though the people didn't want to be exploited
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and many many Indians fought against the British to get them out of India
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but that viewpoint was kept quiet
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the point that was sold to the British public here was that this is an empire that is actually designed to as a force for good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what I find worst about this is that that viewpoint now looking back 100 years later and you're hearing about all the exploitation all the murders and we can still sit there thinking oh no there must be something good about it I think it's kind of this is fake it doesn't come it's not real.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In reality the people never wanted to be exploited
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,many many great nations were destroyed.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's not mitigatedly negative.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are no there's not a case of because you hear this a lot of mixed feelings love hate.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There may be something good about\Ngetting shot in the back
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you might say well some good came up
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now we can struggle?straggle????????????????????????
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can look around for a few\Nstraws here and there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and say well you know we had a benign rule
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or you know that we made some railways
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but in reality it was a very exploitative system.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dr.Lavani cartalavan you wouldn't come back
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was during the British rule
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when all the castes cultures and the races
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really just worked together for the\Nfirst time in five thousand years.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It goes back the caste system.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because of the British rule.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first time in the British rule
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they worked together in the army
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the untouchables and then everybody
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,worked and ran for the first time.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So was the railways.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Railways again hundreds of thousands
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Boston telegraph hundreds of thousands work together
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's no problem.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was actually the first time in the also
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they were India was a conglomerate of many kingdoms
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's the British worked out together
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then time took time to collect put them out together
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and conquered other things.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So a sense of nationhood almost was
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In India was actually
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was British you created India,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was no India before.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Out of conglomerate of many kingdoms\Nthey made one India.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That was a good thing.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, very good thing.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can I ask you as well
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can I ask you Dr. Lavani
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do you think and\Nyou do hear this sometimes
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it is a contentious thing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you read it and you hear it when people say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ultimately in terms of social progress
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the British empire in India\Nwas a civilizing mission.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you believe that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It certainly was.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It certainly was.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most certainly, most certainly
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think British Empire destroyed
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will let you come back in a second
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will let you come back in a second
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just explain what you mean
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Look here, certainly he should know better than anybody else
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He is Sikh
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I don't know what he what he's saying
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but let me tell you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was first time, the burning of the sati
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the widows with the waiters with husband's pyre by right
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they were thousand years there were many things
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not one but one thing ever bothered to do anything about it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,British stopped it but stopped it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and not only just British
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the British Company stopped it.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Company took a great risk by indulging into social matters
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the kings did not bother before
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is the point that in black void is actually wrong
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a more you have to have a more nuanced view
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,David sorry I will get Jagras to come back in
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because Jagraj is extremely exercised
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lawrence in a second.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,David I will let you come back
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my Goodness, everyone wants to speak to me!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,too yeah there's a lot of social reforms you know including the the infantry side
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If the girl is born
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the British stopped infantasy
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They stopped it. It was banned. So a lot of things
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that the most of all people\Nshould appreciate more should be Mr.Singh
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You understand ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mr.Singh are these inconvenient truths ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These civilizing influences and examples of social progress ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think what we are seeing here is\Nsomebody, a mindset
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is basically the colonial mindset.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where when people who have been programmed to believe
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that people are coming here to exploit you for your own good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they don't they look past the exploitation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they think oh well they gave us a few things.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me just go back to all those two points
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they raised about sati and about female infanticide.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, firstly the Guru's banned that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what we are seeing is that the empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the Sikhs built the law for every Sikh
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i'll take issue with that for days for a Sikh it was totally against the law
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something made by the Gurus in the 17th century
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to ever have sati or to have ever have in female infanticide.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and issues like this make me think that actually we had a very high culture
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then we were told oh your culture was actually terrible in fact it was amazing the sikh empire never had any capital punishment
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we had an empire that was so talented and yet nobody
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No he was he was the king of the Sikh Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but he was not seen as an exemplary Sikh
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was punished by the Sikh authorities themselves
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he was pulled to be whipped by the Sikh Empire in Amritsar.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just kind of got you clarified and Andrea i've got you you know i'm coming i'm coming
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but just clarify what you're saying but
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i'm just saying if you go to lahore there you will see the imprints of all the wives of Ranjit Singh
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who when he died when he died had to be cremated on his funeral pyre
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now that does not actually they chose to be just to make that point i've tried the history they chose to be chosen
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but listen we are not here saying that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're not judging Ranjit Singh
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You are defending seekerism as being anticipated.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So Sikhism versus Ranjit Singh are two very different things.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're into a very very rich seam with this debate i feel Laurence Reese well first of all you launched James i do make a party
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First of all we seem to be examining the tree
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than having a look at the forest.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We've got odd incidents of the injustice here
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hospital opened here so on.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think take us into the context to come
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The whole empire i take to be the forest
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think we put it in context.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,During the 18th and 19th century
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are two several revolutions in Europe.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An intellectual, a scientific and an industrial
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they gave Europe,\Nwhat i might call western Europe
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certainly a preponderance of power
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the same time there is in Europe an enlightened movement to say we should share these things with other people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if you like when the first, banal example perhaps,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the first cinema opens in India in 1896
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is a very simple example of the sharing of knowledge.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now that is quite important, it's quite essential.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The fact that there were a lot of cads and scoundrels and rascals
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,running this empire is certain
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we will all agree on that there are also men of virtue and integrity and honesty
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i think we should look in that general position
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the empire is transforming the world
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and quite an amazing transformation.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ultimately a force for good ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think a force for good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there were some villains\Nhanging around, yes.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are in all human institutions
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, indeed so an engine an engine have changed there is a phrase that the the sun never set on the British Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the almighty couldn't trust what the british would get up to in the dark
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was it was certainly a playground for many.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Femi Andrew one second but family's trying to come in here.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have been responsible for the campaign to get rid of the cecil rhodes statue
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you beg your pardon Andrew but I will be with you what would you say so we had to join us
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We had a bit of talk about the instrumental instrumentalization
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the caste system in India in the British colonial rule.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The British raj was actually a model
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the use of the house of fulanis in northern nigeria an indirect rule there the british right was the was the model for a lot of what happened later in the process of colonization you mentioned
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there are legacies of empire i would say the darfur conflict and the recent civil war in sudan is a legacy of the fact that you split the arab north and the black african south into two segments
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and developed the north whilst leaving the south.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the British are entirely responsible for that ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would say that the British are largely responsible.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Before there was there was conflict in sudan
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before the British came there was not racial conflict
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was conflict but it was not as heavily along racial lines.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now there are.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I thought the northern parts of the Sudan were preying on the south
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Sudanese slave trade which general gordon helped destroy
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relied on the north, the islamic north
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,taking people from the tribal region to the south
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and selling them into Egypt.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are three segments you have animist and Christian, black Africans in the south you have in the middle, Muslim black Africans and you have the North Arab Muslims and it was a Muslim Animist conflict mainly before the imposition of Christianity in the south
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the kind of
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But people make their own decisions to to rape and to pillage and exploit
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether that's the british they don't make their own decisions.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People make that like, this is the same argument of the fact that there is so much crime in Black America
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is due to the fact that there are primordial tensions for these it's not it's socioeconomic and structural inequality
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in the same way so the gendered militia which i'm saying it's not our fault well no if you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you look at most conflict in Africa at the moment
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you look at most ethnic conflict
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of it is due to um poverty
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of it is due to people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of poke haram comes from our majority schools which are impoverished schools in northern nigeria where hundreds of kids have to go out and beg
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean I have been to kaduna and seeing them myself so the rape of resources
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and resources drawing on those straight lines on the map
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hey, David Vance, do you want to come back in here for a bit about that Andrea ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I mean just to revert back to what we have been talking about a couple of minutes ago.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It did take the British Empire to stop the burning of widows in India
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and whilst we talk about so many other things
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was a clear dramatic demonstrable advance of civilization in that part of the world
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and had it not been for Britain it wouldn't have happened.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Andrea
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i'm i saw it so long before coming
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, going back to this whole thing around civilizing mission
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think what we have to understand is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that even in the 19th century the British felt they had to justify what they were doing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it was known to be inherently wrong
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so the emphasis on things like the abolition of sati
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i'm not going to defend burning widows for a second
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i'm not sorry that they abolished it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i have problems with the idea of voluntary sati
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so I am not defending that.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I don't have a problem,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's not why we were there.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is a byproduct.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then that there were there were good people there there were noble-minded people there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because humans are you know we're complex creatures
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who saw this and thought this is wrong
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and who in very very good faith sought to
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and succeeded in abolishing it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You give those people credit ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I absolutely would give those people credit.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course in any place in any time
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are good people and bad people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and there are people who are working from good intentions
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what they believe to be good intentions at the time
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also those who are willing to sort of undertake nefarious acts
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to personally profit or profit the nation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course there's good and bad.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Rose in just one second to talk about the spread of religion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think that we can take a few examples
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of civilizing mission
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean sati affected maybe 500 widows a year ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are thousands of pages,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thousands of pages of parliamentary papers on them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,none at all on hundreds of thousands of people who died of famine.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professor Lavani
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, I think it is it is far far more to be appreciated
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the authority who stopped it was a company
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and company was solely responsible to directors
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,East India Company
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do what the kings could not dare to do in India before
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they did it to courage to do it this is it's a very great very great achievement
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is really much it's not just normally stopped you know an early manifestation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were advancing globalization yeah they were strongly advised advice what you're seeing here is the best of best of british values
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we can't say that Britain has no good values
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,army yeah I spent four years i believed in British values
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I do think that the current Britain we are living in now does have at the best very good enlightened values
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is not to say that we look back in India
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and and and find a few little good things that we did and then say well the whole thing must have been good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the reality is they did the good things they did i don't know where to start from
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's so many one after other
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Railway was I have a 20 chapter book of doing good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is only Railway is only oneone the
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the rest is it comes about 20 one after other
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now you see judiciary what what judiciary was before
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the judiciary civic society judiciary system the universe
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First university in India was built by British
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Empress of India, Queen Victoria
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She never went there did she
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,University was built by the company itself
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, listen everyone,\Nlisten everyone.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Femi mentioned the religious there in Sudan Animism and Islam and Christianity let's talk i'm sorry
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It brings us actually on nicely to talking about religion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the missing missionary position if you like
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,spreading I wish I had not said that spread spreading spreading the word
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,spreading the the the good word of the of the lord
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that wasn't a good thing though, was it ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You were you were destroying people's cultures
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am not saying you were Rose
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but people's cultures were destroyed
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Absolutely, I would agree with that entirely
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and as a Christian I want to say yes to christianity
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but at the same time recognizing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that along with Christianity
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people brought their own culture with them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and of course you know people had\Ntheir own religions where they were
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the audacity of the British Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to think that we know what is right
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and yours is no longer\Nimportant or valuable
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you know there was health
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and education some of the the longest
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,serving establishments in terms of education
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and health were brought through\Nthe Christian medium there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so it is not so much
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another cure its egg
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whatever you may call it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the reality is we cannot just say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I personally with my hand\Non my heart cannot say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I am proud of the British Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it and I am not just looking at it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through rose tinted lense
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as it were
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as it were I
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I really do believe
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that some awful things were done
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you mentioned about
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the the British demolishing slavery
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they didn't
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was the people who were being enslaved
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who were making slavery unworkable
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am afraid Rose, what that does is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that simply contradicts the fact
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the British navy was the instrument
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to ensure that the slave trade\Nwas eventually
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is a matter of historical fact how
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can you deny history ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's go to the audience.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The navy actually took africans
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and indentured them on the Caribbean
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to work just like slate\Nbut that's a bad thing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they also took many back to Africa
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again to endure poverty and trouble
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so in fact it was not a good\Nthing that the navy did
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not at all!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Don't believe that brother.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So had it so you would
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you think that had the royal navy
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not sought to stop the slave trade
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it would have magically stopped anyway ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No they didn't no no no no no
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They actually encouraged it in the sense
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of using those same Africans
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do what the planters wanted.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That was the point.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, hence, of course the Jamaican rebellion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was some years after emancipation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of the disappointment
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,emancipation had not made\Na difference to their lives
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that was very brutally put down
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when was it it was the 1865
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,65
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this gentleman wants to promote
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this image of some Utopian British Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then talking about a Soviet dystopia.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Caribbean was a dystopia for the Caribbean people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Africans who were transported as German said
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you are trying to present this position
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the navy cancelling slavery
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say who stopped slavery
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was the Africans who for hundreds of years
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Caribbean rebelled \Nviolently against their own Gods.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the same time granted\Nthere were a lot of people in the UK
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who fought for abolition as well
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but don't ______ this position
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because from the early from the late 1500s until 1833
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was that forced migration of 20 million people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,plus all of their descendants forced dehumanization,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rape and movement of culture and eradication of culture
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for you to then try and say oh the navy stopped
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it it's frankly historically disingenuous.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I can die from that yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,About the navy point,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the French was of the early 19th century
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we were fighting the French
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was partly just just an excuse\Nto attack french ships.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, we have abolished slavery
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people have abolished slavery
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how can we attack the French ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I know the French who yes granted it was your other Europeans who were transporting slaves across
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and who canceled their own slave trades after
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and excuse them to attack French ships
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because when we are at peace with the French we can't just attack them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but since we don't like slavery anymore
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can attack any ship flying French colours
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you read the historical parliamentary papers
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the excuse essentially let's attack the French
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they're we're in a time of peace
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they're carrying the flag
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so don't try and posit the navy as this great humanization force
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when it was that same navy who enforced that policy of forced migration of people for 350 years prior.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But i'm not suggesting
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Excuse me
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you want to come sit in the front row ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think we need to put this in context,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have to also understand
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that while all this debate about abolishing was going on
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forty percent of the contemporary state budget
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was given to former slave owners as compensation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forty of the contemporary state budget!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that much amount of money was at stake here
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was given over to the slave owners.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why did they need to be pacified ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why did they need to be paid compensation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for exploiting people's lives ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, of course it wasn't impossible
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean i mean somewhere at the end of the the slave trade is it's like going on a killing spree
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then saying I don't like killing anymore you won't pat him on the back foot would you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the one i just wanted to bring that point about cinemas
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which i thought was quite a curious point
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it is possible to have cultural exchange
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to share culture and ideas
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without conquering much of the world
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and inflicting famines which
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is this argument that somehow that again which is we're applying 21st century standards to the past
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the 1950s there was the marijuana uprising in kKnya against British rule
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the British Empire responded brutally killed thousands of people here wasn't it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there were people i'm just making this point
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people spoke up against it do you know who one of them was
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that well-known lefty Enoch Powell
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who condemned the British brutality in Kenya.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The point I am making is this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there were people, there were people who stood up against this brutality
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it is a disservice and a smear on those people at the time
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who fought for the freedom of people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to say that they did not do so and we're just applying this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the broader point here which some don't seem to seem to have rather overlooked this no one's arguing that the british empire was a model a utopian model of empire there never has been a utopian
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, but the broader point here
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which some don't seem to rather overlooked this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No one is arguing that the British Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a model, a Utopian model of empire.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There never has been a Utopian model of empire.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,model of empire let me finish my point
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's never been a Utopian model of empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the very fact that the British empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,did contribute towards in the mid 18th century
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,towards the stopping of the slave trade
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shows that it was a more enlightened empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than many other ones that existed
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you're not here to whinge about them.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you agree with that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,iIthink i think the Arab Empire was far more brutal
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to make just one point though,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the thing with the Arab Empire,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the Sikhs suffered from both the British Empire and the Arab Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The thing with the Arab Empire the Sikhs knew was
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that these are enemies we are going to fight them.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,With the British Empire.\Nit was it was a bit more nuanced
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How they tried to do was
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is they tried to change the Sikh religion.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the Arabs never really tried to change the secret religion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and try to twist it to suit them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was just straight out it was clear enemies
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they are your enemies and you are theirs.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,With the British it was very much a case of take a religion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was very independent very free very freedom loving
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and try and convert that into something which you can use for your own benefit
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,convince these people to join the British Army
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,convince them that it's for their own good
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then use them to then subjugate other Indians.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The British were far more
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtle
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, not subtle
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Insidious
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Insidious yes, exactly.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dangerous.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lawrence, let's talk about decolonization.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are things I want to return to as well,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Christianization as well
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because that's left
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's when we come on to talk about legacies
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's left some people argue.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some very negative legacies and it's tearing apart the anglican communion
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At the moment with very conservative christianity
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,homophobia rife in the West Indies
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in Africa Jamaica
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but Lawrence let's talk about decolonization
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and generally those,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sitting down in those straight lines drawn
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the map in Africa and no understanding of tribal
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or ethnic complexities in that continent
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean I suppose empires have been historically rather short on foresight
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we made some terrible mistakes there
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Didn't we ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I am not sure, African states
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no let's think of it if there were
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how many African states are fighting\Nboundary wars at the moment ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Quite a few actually.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have a lot of interest
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, then they will fight them.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but let's forget about the boundaries
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that that's slightly irrelevant.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is relevant is that in the British Empire between 1939-1945
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The British government asked
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the assistance of the subjects of empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to fight the second world war
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this generated a powerful sense of reciprocity.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well I think Indians and africans knew what Hitler and Mussolini had in store for them.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was very nasty.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they fought and at the end of the war in 1945
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot thousands upon tens of thousands of them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the French as well as the British Empire came home
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and asked the question
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have risked our lives in a fight
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which we have been told
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and rightly so I believe was a morally good cause
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what do we have in return ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have been fighting a war for freedom,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the freedoms of president Franklin Roosevelt's
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Atlantic charter
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what share are we going to get of the spoils of this war
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think that's the first thing in the background
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to decolonization
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thousands and thousands of Africans
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with an educated elite and ex-soldiers were asking the question
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this freedom we fought for for five years
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when is it coming to us
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the British government turned round and said,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Well, I think we have got to consider decolonization
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 45 labour government comes to power promising in india no money
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we liked them yes they won it and it was a manifesto the labor said
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we will give independence to India, Shalom and Burma
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this was in the labor manifesto
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and of course it came about in 1947.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They go further into saying this will be extended to Africa
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No one could work out quite what the timetable will be
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 1990s was given until 1950 and then something else happens in 1945
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i'll cut off here we have the beginning of a cold war yes in which newly independent countries are going to find that the soviet union and the united states are competing for them
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are coming along and saying join us vote for us
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the united nations we will help you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to finish 1954 an African ruler of an independent country uh
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wants weapons and he asks khrushchev for weapons khrushchev says i will give you mig fighters i will give you tank
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will make Egypt strong to fight in this case Israel
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also to resist any encroachments by Britain
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then you have Africa decolonizing at the same time as the soviet union
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the united states are looking for world power
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and confronting each other.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we are rather irrelevant
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, Britain does become irrelevant
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah but and interestingly of course nasser there are there are arguments
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,well-sourced arguments that that secular regime of nasa the reaction to it has led to many of the seeds of islamism
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the problems we have there one thing leads to another basically can i ask you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you've been trying to come back in anandita
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you were if we talk about 4647 the India's uh freedom if you were to have to drawn uh to draw a mat to draw a line on the map and to have done it better
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What would you have done ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Over to you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's what we're looking for.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I certainly would have taken more than two weeks to draw that body.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think you know this question isn't it it is it is um so if
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if i can slightly uh evade that question
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and come come to another
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's so many things just been\Nbandied about in this debate
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I want to get back to one is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea that Britain gave India independence in 1947 is a myth
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think we need to get over that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so all the civilizing that we had been\Ndoing for all this period
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we did all this great good to the people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this was the time when we felt
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that India was right to be handed over its its freedom
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we left it didn't work like that Britain was in a terrible mess in the post-war situation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it might have been in the labor manifesto for obvious reasons
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it was also a question of this was becoming a very expensive colony
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to maintain it just could not have happened.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The congress showed itself as downright
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non-cooperative during the second world war
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this was the last straw
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this was the time when they were absolutely sure
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that no more kind of cooperative
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talks could go on between themselves and and Britain.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So from from the point of view of the indian freedom struggle it had reached its its its head as well so you know this had to be solved
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so it was internal pressure as well
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so it wasn't just the war and all the aspirations for liberation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that had been you know kind of suddenly
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sparked alive in people that this led to you know this is a this is a freedom struggle that goes back to 1885
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it isn't suddenly the second world war which is creating all these aspirations in people.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can I just quickly finish ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you know that that is one myth we we should we should get over
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if I can return to what Dr.Lalvani was saying earlier on
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea again that the nation itself\Nwas a gift of Britain to India
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,does not absolutely hold true at all
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it wasn't western education it wasn't railways it wasn't the civilizing mission that did all of this but it was the presence of the British in india
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was the anti-colonial\Nnature of the struggle
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that brought India together
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so the British contributed to the Indian nation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but by just being there and being what they were which was an oppressive colonial regime
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but yeah let's let's talk about legacy as well not just decolonization but legacy of
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for example in Africa we paved the way to apartheid didn't we david vance
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,many of the femi touched on this many of the problems in Africa today are down to how we behaved what we did
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Should we hide our our heads in shame because
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No I don't think that the problems today
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right now today in Africa our attitudes to race can be can be laid at the heart at the door of an empire long since gone Nicky.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean it's time we people have to accept responsibility
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for themselves in their own independence
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people today are still suffering because of the traits of the slave trade,
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,aren't they
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which which of course is being carried out by other rising empires
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such as for example some of the in terms of the Islamic Empires that we see cropping up.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No we cannot be carrying the consistent guilt over everything that isn't perfect in every part of the world
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know we were not a perfect empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have not said that we were.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Did we make mistakes ?\NYes we did!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we have done good!
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and as well regards Africa
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would simply raise this one final point
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when for example, Zambia
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whenever it was part of the British Empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we ruled and governed in it the average zambian had an income of about one-seventh of what we had here.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All these years later what do they have ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,127th of the income we have that
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whose fault is that ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have gone.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Who's responsible ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think you can separate
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as being the fifth richest country
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the world from our colonial past.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Secondly, there is a few points I want to make
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first one is on owen and what he said about the mao mao insurrection we should keep talking about this civilizing mission
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How is bringing civilization to a culture
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,systematic internment camps of 1.5 million people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rape anal rape of men with snakes
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and scorpions and knives
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have you have you have women
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and pregnant women shot
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have kids when the British went to Australia
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are there atrocities in all that other atrocities in all empires ?
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are trustees in the French empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are trustees in the French empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are trustees in the buildin
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are trustees in all empires.
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they were not attracted because human beings these people were not writing about liberalism at the time and freedom there are atrocities in all empires but yes that there are um but not that not all empires call themselves civilizing missions um well moving but yeah everyone else is
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You mentioned, how many wars are there in Africa at the moment
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a kind of flippant way the British media does nothing to cover the congo civil war the biggest war since world war II
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it doesn't look at it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the British media did not look at the Angolan war
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which went on even though it was not a British x colony
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no but it went on for 40 odd years which is two-thirds of the extent to which some of the last colonies were
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then you're they're saying it's not that long ago this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is 60 years is in is not a it's not a very long time long term
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the great span of history
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the greatest benefits we haven't heard from you for a while in a second we're going to talk about legacy Charles
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think there's an awful tendency to simplify
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fact is that we do not study this period
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and indeed in many countries which are newly liberated
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or been liberated from 1947 onwards and i use that word liberty it is a liberation um they do not study anything rather than the freedom movement india is a classic example
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you ask people about what happened uh in the 19th century people will not know because this freedom movement has now become we need national myths we need founding myths
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i can understand why every country whether it's kenya or if it needs to portray the freedom struggle in the most positive terms but it's it's all ambivalent there are there are nuances here which are being missed in the question of mauma
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for instance how many other tribes beyond the kikuyu got involved how much of that was actually about land grabbing by the kikuyu how much of that who were the victims other africans
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who were the main victims very few europeans actually got killed by the malmo so it's not simple black and white this is history my worry is that now we're getting a black and white history but there are so many nuances involved in this yeah and the great delight do you want nuances are the great delights of history aren't they let's talk
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about legacy you can come in without me even asking you a question i would like it's not necessarily to go away feeling guilty about the atrocities of the british empire what i want us to do however is to acknowledge that there were these major major issues that that is still
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is still impacting on us today so for example by virtue for example of paying the slave owners and and giving nothing to those who are the victims of it have left people still in that victim mode by virtue of um taking away a people's culture um killing
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who they are still exists today and that is why the racism that exists in in our in our present time exists because we still think we are white we are great black you are not good enough but it's not this is gross can i just say something yes this is this is right
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's the legacy we see this happening all over the world from upsets of one set of human beings towards another set of humans we see that we see the chinese empire the rape of resources in africa from the chinese empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the moment there are still the american empire the chinese empire there will always be empires there will always be things yeah we are discussing the present which do you think it has a uniquely uh pernicious legacy because of the slave trade
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of the racial aspect it it is there we cannot deny it is still it is still there why is it that our children today do not learn about um cultural things of their particular groups why is it only what is eurocentric
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or can we take upon ourselves a type of collective guilt people watching the you know today can should we feel guilty guilt is useless guilt is useful are we are we responsible in the way we speak christianity
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for homophobia i was listening to a documentary the other day about homophobia in jamaica and they were saying look you gave us the bible you gave us the truth and we believed it and all of a sudden you're telling us not to believe it well
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i i would agree that that is wrong i would never condone that but the point that i have are we responsible for it spreading those attitudes back in the 80s i think we did we did spread those and and we are reaping the legacy of it today so do you think the spreading of christianity was wrong therefore it's not so much about the spreading of christianity
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's what we packaged it in but i just want to explain something simply those okay those there's very strong arguments that we are responsible for the spread of homophobia in spreading those attitudes but there have been generation after generation to change the penal codes and they haven't changed the penal codes so can we still put the blame on our door
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i that is a very good question i think we are very much still under the the umbrella of it as it were of that painful time in history still very close to mcgregor audience audience yes you've had your hand up for so long and i've got i've been trying there's been a lot of talked this morning
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and i think the saddest thing should come every week yeah the saddest thing is i think i've seen this morning is the typical british way where the two sikhs have been arguing the most i find that interesting we talked about how the british went they were non-civilized let me tell you we had you just talked about the mughal empire
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,preceding the british empire they were more than civilized they didn't need you to come in sati is not an islamic principle but let's modernize it as a young british pakistani muslim what we're talking about
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now angers me the most muslims are always told you don't integrate you're not involved black people are always told you're not good enough you're not smart enough there's something about your culture your criminals you need to follow this way of life
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the reality is the british empire is the biggest reason that racism exists today in this country when you have people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like this on the front row who will always see black brown asian people as being below them we subjugated you we owned you at one stage we you can't get above you above your level how dare you get anywhere
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of the arguments you hear is that one of the positive legacies of the british empire is our multicultural society
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not working is it because there's a multiculturalism to an extent they always want to keep you at a level
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they don't want to progress so let's talk about what we do what do we do next well it's interesting in your intro you talked about indian pakistan
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being the jewel in the crown literally the jewel in the crown you've still got the jewel in your crown we wanted micro no in the queen's
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it needs to be returned back to the people you stole it from i won't recreate it from anyone
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a lot of use going on here
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,charles allen the korean charles allen should go back to the tribal people in golconda okay that's they're the ones who turn it up return it it certainly shouldn't go to lahore
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very few because it's gone through hundreds of rulers and conquerors over the centuries the idea that these little simple tokens
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's not enough yeah it's not just let me go back there to that gentleman there you've you've been yeah you you
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,good morning to you good morning hi well quick point yeah very quickly well i i just needed a minute uh what i want to say
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is i've heard some of the most preposterous comments today made by many panelists which one which one most of all mainly from this side but we started as an india with the nation
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nationhood was given by britain thank you yes but that was and then there were infrastructure that was laid whether it was indian indian penal code indian uh post office
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or indian railways indian army these were all central to the development of the the empire that the infrastructure was necessary so it was for their own needs as uh one of our panelists
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we we had that point out earlier well we haven't got a lot of time but what i'm what i'm coming to is the also the social engineering
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we talked about earlier is was not given by the british it was by all the social engineers
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like raja ram mohan roy uh people like gandhi ambedkar they they they are the ones who did okay
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i just think that point you made about race and racism is just is critical because obviously to justify empire people
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who were being colonized were dehumanized they had to be seen as inferior because you wouldn't possibly allow for that sort of barrier
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be conducted against people you would see as being like yourself and that legacy scars our society today but just finally i do think the worry is i have are people going to watch this
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and go oh you will just custody in britain it's a big british anti-british hate fest and the truth is what frightens me is in our curriculum
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in schools across the country what we're not seeing is the history we should be proud of that i spoke about before people of all backgrounds and faiths freedoms are you proud of churchill
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i'm proud of the british war effort against the nazis of the people service people who went to as they say it's like he had racially supremacist attitudes he did yeah well of course
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people who run the british would you like to take his stuff churchill would you like a statue in the long run
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i think having a statue of someone who called um who called he said indians were ghastly people with a ghastly religion the famine was their own fault because they bred
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like rabbits he said he said many things churchill is is is ultimately would you like to there's a statue i'm not going to make a comment on that because i'll be dragged through
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the daily mail tomorrow nonetheless nonetheless just to make your point on the um on the uh you said chinese rape of african resources as if shell was not a british dutch company it was not paying the nigerian government in we are now a 1990 society
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,china and we can build we can build on it and go forward is that for you what is the positive legacy what can people look at and remember is there anything about the empire that still binds us together
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right i think commonwealth for me is a good thing and i am glad that you gave us cricket in that we and i'm talking with my caribbean hats on i gave you cricket yes and look what we're doing with it look how terrific we are but but i'm also glad that right here in britain we can be a truly we're not we're not fully there yet we need to work at it
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we need to work at better being being a better diverse and multi-ethnic multicultural society celebration there are three three enduring legacies that that we can be proud of we've left libera
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,l we spread liberal capitalism around the world to the annoyance of some we shared a form of government which in many ways still continues and last but by no means least 450 million people speak english
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with and in some regards what what what a wonderful legacy as well so there's lots to be proud of we've heard lots of grievance gravens mongeri going on wait andre
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have the very last word and it's a quick one well they only need to speak english today as the global lingua franca precisely because we did colonise half
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,listen we did a shakespeare special a few weeks ago but let's just you know when i speak to my kids
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,i have to constantly tell them you've got to speak to elders with a bit more respect because english does not have that verb left anymore for adults
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which french has and it's not a good thing you know it's an achievement but it's not a great achievement it's actually a very negative immigration
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which french has and it's not a good thing you know it's an achievement but it's not a great achievement it's actually a very negative immigration
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they we are here because we're finished rose we're finished rose the sun will never set on the big questions thank you very much for watching see you very soon
Dialogue: 0,9:59:59.99,9:59:59.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you