(Bowl rings)

(John): So In this presentation we are 
going discuss the Path of Sutra.

We will look at how Sutra enforms monastic
life and the advantages of monastic life.

We are going to look at the refuge vows
may be taken by lay practitioners.

And we'll also look at the types of 
meditations

that are done in Sutric tradition,

which are different from 
the ones in Tantra and in Dzogchen.

So Geshe la, perhaps we could start out 
with talking about just the view and

conduct of Sutra. How would you describe
the view and the conduct of Sutra?

In Sutra there are 5 poisons, and 
the 5 poisons have the 5 antidotes.

The antidotes can
destroy the 5 poisons.

(John): Can you tell us what the
5 poisons are?

Yes. Attachment, anger, ignorance,
pride, and jealousy are the 5 poisons.

In Sutra they say that these are the 
5 poisons, and you don't touch them,

we need an antidote for them. Destroy from
the root and throw out.

If there is a poisoned tree, with this 
poison the tree will grow up.

You need to take it out from the root and
throw out, otherwise it will destroy us.

Same as in the West. There are medicines,
and description: away from the child.

If the child touches and eats it,
it is a posion for the child.

(John): Right, So you want to keep it 
away from the children.

Yes, keep it away from the children.
Sutra looks like that.

(John): So we try to avoid negative 
actions, negative thoughts,

negative speech, and we also try to
cultivate the virtuous activities.

Yes, cultivate virtous things.
Also they say, if there is a posion

and the poison is destroyed, good things
would come out. In Sutra they think that.

So I guess in one way you could say that

Sutra is the basis of moral behavior
in the Bön tradition.

Yes. In Sutra they talk more about
disciplines.

In the monks' life there are a lot of
disciplines.

It all comes from the Sutra.

Looking the outside the Sutra is good.

Inner you practice Dzogchen and Tantric,
outer you practice Sutra.

(John) : Good. I was going to ask you 
about this, because many people in the

West first encounter Dzogchen practice, 
before they really studied Sutra.

And of course Dzogchen tells us that
everything is perfect as it is. Right?

Single taste, right?

And so it also gives you a lot of freedom
in your conduct.

And yet we see that great Dzogchen
practitioners such as Yongdzin Rinpoche or

His Holiness and of course yourself

you are still continuing to practice 
the life of the monk. Right?

So why do people continue to practice 
and observe all of these moral conducts,

and also practice Dzogchen?

There are two ways to practice Dzogchen.

In Dzogchen there are Tantric 
practitioners.

This Dzogchen is common for everyone who
practices.

Before Nyame Sherab Gyaltsen there
was only Tantric practitioner,

Dzogchen practitioner or a Sutric 
practitioner.

There were only single lineages 
of Sutra,Tantra and Dzogchen.

Before that they did not combine
Sutric and Tantric, or Dzogchen.

Then Nyame Sherab Gyaltsen, second Buddha
of the Bön, he combined them.

Outer monk, inner Dzogchen and Tantric.

Also Dzogchen can be practiced by
lay people too.

(John): Of course.

Sutric [vows of monks and nuns] cannot be
practiced by lay practitioners.

There are different types of 
Sutric practices,

Lay level Sutra practices and Sutric 
practices for monks are different.

Monks need to take a lot of vows. Lay
people do not need that kind of vows.

(John): You know I heard Yongdzin Rinpoche
saying one time that he preferred to

continue practicing in the moral way of 
the Sutra, because it does not confuse

people too and give people the wrong
idea about behaviour.

Yes.

(John): So you are trying to set 
a good example for other people.

Yes, if you show the good example,
then people will follow that.

If you show the bad example,
the student will follow that.

The teacher need a better discipline than 
the student. It's more important.

(John): Why do monk and nuns take 
many vows as part of their path?

What is the advantage of taking
all these vows?

Because there are 250 vows for monks
is that right?

Yes. 250 vows. 
Monks take 2 types of vows.

One is when they take 25 vows, and
after that we take 250 vows.

(John): So the first 25 vows are for the
novious monks,

and then the 250 are for the full
ordination of a monk?

If you take the 25 vows then
you become a monk.

Before that you are not a monk.

They are more disciplined, more than
lay people. Lay people do not have

[the same level of] discipline. 
They can put in discipline [when needed].

If you go to an office, they have a
discipline.

If you go the school they have
a rule for that.

And the monks in the monastery
also need disciplines.

They say that monks are better than
lay people. Why are they better?

Because they have vows and they are
more disciplined.

So it is about disciplining your behaviour
and disciplining your mind.

Yes, yes.

Which makes your practice stronger.

Yes. Yes.

Discipline in the daily practice and
discipline for when you go out,

the way you talk, the way you do [things 
or the way you act]

everything that needs to be
under discipline.

And of course all these vows that the 
monks and nuns take

also help tame the ego. Like for
instance the monks are always

wearing the robes, and nothing else. 
And you always cut the hair.

So in these ways we avoid becoming
proud of our appearance.

I guess that's one of the reasons.
Or are there other reasons?

Yes. This colour we call the spiritual
colour.

Red, yellow, blue we call them spiritual
colours.

Now also black and white, 
we call normal colour.

We wear the spiritual colour.
We do not wear the fancy things.

If you look in your house and you have a
lot of different shirts, T-shirts,

different jackets. This jacket for the 
party, cocktail party.

This jacket for something else, 
wedding party, this one is for the office.

Lot of different shoes, pants, different
jackets and shirts that we do not have.

We have 2 or 3 clothes. For party we wear
this one, for monastery we wear that one.

Whenever we go out we wear that one.

We are satisfied. Satisfaction.

You [lay people] are not satisfied. 
Especially girls, they go the mall,

and they are buying every time,
keep wanting more and more.

(John): Attachment?

Attachment, desire. Every year there
is a new fashion, they want it.

The things from last year are no 
more of use.

Not only the girls do this, 
many man do it too, you know.

Oh yes. I think that girls do it
more than men.

(John): Possible.

Shopping, shopping. Girls have a lot to shop.
Their shopping chakra is open. (laughing)

We call it the shopping chakra.

That way if you go to mall there is a lot
of girls' cloth, more than men.

I think it's showing that the girls
are doing more shopping.

(John): One of the vows that monks 
and nuns take is of course not to have

relationship, no family basically. What
is the advantage of not having a family?

Because many people think that family is 
wonderful. It's very warm, very loving.

So why do monks and nuns choose not to 
have a family, not to have children?

These days it's easy to give an example, 
in the past time it was

a different answer. These times we would 
say population control (laughs).

Easy to say that it's population control.

Look at the Tibetan people. 
The population is not big.

We don't need to say population control.

We are already control
because of the nuns and the monks.

In the texts they say we make
relationships because of the attachment.

(John): We have very strong attachments.

Strong attachment. So because of this we 
do not have attachments.

Also that's why we don't have family.
If you have a family, you need to spend

a lot of time for that. That time takes
us away from our mediation.

Doing the virtuous thing, or you
need to spend time in the family.

We monks have a lot of time to do the 
practice, because we don't have family.

(John): That's right.

Saving time.

Well, and also if you have a family, you 
have to generate a lot of money somehow,

to support this family. Again, this takes
us away from the spiritual practice.

Also you need to take care of wife, child
and also money, time, and everything.

That way it's reducing the practice time.

So you just making your life simpler and
simpler and more focused on the practice,

more focused on the teachings.

Yes. More focused on the 
teachings and meditation.

And you live in the community of the 
monastery,

so you are supported by all the
other monks and nuns.

We think that all the monks are Dharma
brothers, and the nuns are Dharma sisters.

We don't have a family life, we have
Dharma brothers and sisters, as we call.

This seems like a very wonderful way
of living.

Yes. Then you [lay people] are saving 
money. Also you have health insurance.

As monks, we don't have it. We don't save
money, we don't have insurance.

We don't think about that. 
We just got food today, and it's fine.

We are not thinking about putting things
away for tomorrow.

Mainly we focus - the dialectic school - 
just focuses on the philosophy.

Then also in meditation there are 2 groups
in the monastery.

One is the meditation group and the other
one is the dialectic, philoshopic group.

And we just focus on that.

If you go to a monk's room, 
there is nothing. It's very simple.

(John): Simple life. Simple is good.

Yes. (laughing)

(John): So lay practitioners do have the 
possibility of taking refuge vows.

Yes, sure.

(John): So it's possible for lay people
to take some of these simple vows,

and simplify their lives, and also guide

their moral discipline
as a lay practitioner.

Yes. Moral discipline is very important,
and lay practitioners also take the vows.

There are 4 lay vows. First is
killing life. Don't kill anyone.

(John): No harm.

No harm.

If someone harms you, how much suffer does 
this harm cause for you?

This is the same for others. 
Don't harm anyone.

(Tibetan words)

Second is don't steal.

(John): Yeah. Don't steal.

(John): Actually is it going a little
bit further than that? Not to take what

You should not take what was not
given to you.

Yes. Anything not given to you, 
you do not take it.

(John): That's right. So if you see
a 100 dollar bill laying on floor,

you don't take it.

You don't take it. If you take it, then 
you can put a note somewhere with

your contact that you found it.
You can give information.

And then the next vow is to refrain from
false and idle speech.

(John): So in other words we always tell
the truth.

Yes.

(John): And we also don't gossip.

Yes, don't gossip.

(John): Or say negative words about
people.

And also avoid sexual misconduct, as the
forth vow.

Sexual misconduct is harming a lot
others too.

If you don't marry a woman, if you have
a girlfriend who is already married

or a boyfriend who already married, than
don't do the sexual misconduct.

If you had a sexual contact with somebody 
else's wife and the husband notices it,

it destroys the husband's heart.

(John): Sure, yes.

Also some girls have a contact with
somebody else's husband.

If the wife notices, there would 
be a lot of fight at home.

(John): It comes back to the very first
vow, when we don't harm anyone.

Yes, don't harm anyone.

(John): So harming is not only on the
physical level, but also on the

emotional level. Or the mental level.

So any sort of sexual behaviour that 
we would do and cause someone some pain,

some harm, that should be avoided.

Yes.

That's one of the lay people's vow.

(John): Now there is also the 
possibility to take some vows for

we don't use any intoxication, such as 
alcohol, or something like that.

Is that correct?

Yes. Alcohol (Tibetan words)

If you take 5 vows then it includes
not taking alcohol.

If lay people take 4 vows, than
it's not included.

(John): So you have the possibility of
taking a different set of refuge vows.

Yes.

(John): But you have to take the basic
four

if you're going to take the refuge vows.

But you can take the five. Because there 
is also a possibility, I think, of taking

some dietary restricitions. Either about
no meat or no onions, or garlic.

Yes. There are not root ones.
There are vows that are root vows.

And there are vows that are branch vows.

If you cut the branch, the tree will not
die.

If you cut the root of the tree,
the tree will die.

If you break one of the root vows, then
monks are not monks anymore

and lay people also take we call the 
"genyen" (Tibetan word), so if they break

then there is no more "genyen" too.

(John): These first 4 are considered to 
be the root vows:

so it's not harming other living 
creatures,

refraining from taking that, 
which is not given,

we refrain from sexual misconduct and

we refrain from false and idle speech.

Yes, these 4 are for the lay people.

And the alcohol. If you drink alcohol
limitless, you drink it with no limit,

and you get drunk, you'll be doing
something wrong.

(John): Sure.

That way it's very strict for monks.
They are not allowed to drink alcohol.

(John): Of course.

(John): Because we loose control.

Or loose our good judgement. Or we loose 
our moral discipline.

Yes.

(John): Of course it's not just alcohol, 
but any sort of drugs or anything else

we become inebriated. Same principle.

Same principle, yes.

(John): It's not restricted to just
alcohol.

So, some lamas give the refuge vows
very frequently, but I've heard that

Tenzin Rinpoche said that he prefers
not to give these very often because

it's better not to take the vow than
take it and then break it.

Yes.

(John): So one should be very careful,
if one is really serious if they're going

to take the vows or not.

When you take a refuge vow from the lama
you need to consider

that lama is your is your teacher. 
You have to think about that.

Some day if the lama is doing something
little bit wrong, you may say:

oh I don't want to contact any more
this lama.

Then the refuge vow is broken.

(John): So when you take that refuge vow
from a teacher you have the

spiritual connection.

Yes, you have the spiritual connection.

You always need to think of him 
as your spiritual teacher.

(John): So it seems that these
refuge vows though are a wonderful way

to simplify are own lives as lay
practitioners because, of course if

if we tell the truth, if we don't harm
other people and so on,

it leads to a much happier life.

Yes.

If you take the refuge vows,
this life is more useful.

Refuge vows are not these
four [previous vows].

Anyone can take refuge vows.

Taking refuge in the lama
Taking refuge in the Buddha

Taking refuge in Buddha's speech
Taking refuge in Boddhisattva.

That's the refuge.

(John): So you are taking refuge in
the sources of enlightenment.

Yes, that's the refuge.

And it's an other thing if you take
the 4 vows or 5 vows,

that we call the "genyen" (Tibetan).

(John): So it's two different sets of 
refuge.

Yes, first the refuge vow, and then comes
the "genyen".

Then monks have 2 types of vows :
"tsantsug" and "gelong" (Tibetan)

(John): Do the monks and the nuns take
the same vows?

Almost the same.

(John): In the Sutric system not only
do we avoid these negative behaviours,

for instance we do not lie, but we also
try to cultivate the positive,

the virtuous conduct within ourselves.
Which are referred to as the paramitas,

or the perfections. Right?
So let's talk about that a little bit.

I have list here with the 10 paramitas,
maybe you could explain us a little bit,

what's the importance of 
each one of these.

So the first one is, how would you say
Tibetan? "sByin-pa" ?

"sByin-pa", yes. Generosity.

(John): So we try to cultivate
generosity.

What is the advantage of
cultivating generosity?

There are 2 types of generosity. One is 
when physically you can give something to

somebody who doesn't have it.
We can be generous and give food for

somebody who doesn't have enough
to eat. Those people are hungry,

those people are thirsty. If you give 
food to them, if you give drink to them

that's a generosity too.

What is generosity according to the
teaching?

According to the teaching generosity 
means very big things.

There is a lot of suffering in
this Samsara.

Giving teaching to change the mind,

that kind of teaching, if you give it.
This is a generosity.

(John): So when we share the Dharma 
with others it a great generosity.

If senior students help junior students
in the Dharma things,

Some have a lot of suffering
they can not control

they don't know how to control,
and then senior student teaches to

do meditation. Then you can guide the 
meditation.

You can teach the Dharma prayer.
This is all generosity.

(John): So our Dharma brothers and 
sisters in our sangha

are great support for us.

Here at Ligmincha in summer and autumn
hundreds of people come to

Rinpoche's teaching. They all come at the
same time and share things.

Some are new students,
some are old, or senior students.

Senior students share their experience
and everything. That's generosity.

(John): Hopefully without pride.
(laughing).

Yes, pride like
"I'm the teacher, l have more knowledge

than the other one". Sometimes there is
a lot of pride, when people are thinking

"I have knowledge". I have a lot of
experience. Don't think like that.

Rather think that "I've learned many
years, I have a knowledge. They are new

and I'm generously helping the new
student". That is the best, it's generous.

(John): That's wonderful.

(John): So the second paramita we've
already talked a little bit about,

because it's the ethical discipline.

Discipline, yes.

(John): We keep our ethics pure and clear.

Discipline. There are a lot of
discipline. Monks have disciplines.

Lay people have disciplines.

During the teaching time you have
discipline. You put timetables:

Monday at 9 the teaching is starting
and at 10.30 there is a break.

Following all the disciplines, 
is a discipline.

Monks have discipline, all
the community has discipline.

If you follow all the disciplines,
everybody is happy for that.

No one is angry. Discipline
helps develop patience.

(John): Yes, I mean that's the beauty 
of moral conduct and ethical conduct,

is that it leads to happiness within
ourselves and happiness in others.

Yes, it gives happiness for both sides.

(John): So the third paramita is patience.
Now we could all use more of this.

Yes. (Laughing)

Patience is the most important one.

Especially patience in the case of 
husband and wife.

(John): Or anyone in the family.
(laughing)

Or anyone in the family.

Mostly husband and wife, if they
spent long time, more than 10 years,

together after that they
can loose patience often.

At the start when they were girlfriends
and boyfriends,

they had a lot of patience.

After marriage they loose the patience.

To have the patience, if someone is angry,
don't respond immediately.

They say, just listen, listen.
If you put wood on the fire,

fire becomes bigger and bigger.

If you put gas on the fire,
it gets very big.

If you respond immediately, than
the anger, the fire will come out.

(John): So just be patient and just wait.

Just be patient, and wait, and just 
listen. Don't respond immediately.

If somebody is angry, the other side needs
more space.

More space. Space helps.

(John): Space helps in many things.

Yes, in many things.

Looking in the space you can see lot
of things.

Space holds everything. Good and bad, 
everything. Space doesn't bother.

(John): So the next of the paramitas is
virtuous effort, being diligent.

Or I guess the Tibetan term is 
"brTson-'grus".

"brTson-'grus", yes.

If you do virtuous things, if you
do practice, you need that.

Immediately you can not run [away from] 
that one you have continually spend time

and do it continually, more and more
you need to practice.

(John): So you should do things well.

Yes.

(John): So we shouldn't do things 
half way. If we do it, we should do it

very fully and completely.

Also we give example: (Tibetan words)

If the fire is on the hair, then you need
to do everything that is possible to

put out the fire.

Also grass burns slowly, 
and then burns everything

Let me give you another example.

Every books they have it.

Also in the West you have the story of
the rabbit and the tortoise.

(John): Oh the rabbit and the tortoise.

(John): Oh yes. Where the rabbit goes very
quickly, but it goes down to sleep,

and eventually the tortoise wins because
it slow and steady, but diligent.

Yes, it looks like that.

(John): So have your diligents to complete
your task.

Like a turtle.

(John): So it's the same story in 
Tibetan. That's interesting.

(John): So well the next one is pretty
obvious: meditation.

(John): So we should have our meditation
practice, and

be regular in our meditation practice.

Meditation. When you meditate you
become happy.

If you suffer, if you have a problem
you can meditate.

There is so many different ways to
meditate.

You can meditate on emptiness, you can 
meditate on impermanence,

if you are on a higher level, you can
practice Dzogchen,

Natural state of the mind, you can do that
kind of meditation.

If you meditate, meditations feels good,
right?

(John): Meditation brings us joy, brings 
us equanimity,

it said that it brings us the four 
inmeasurables: love, joy, compassion and

equanimity. It leads to a wonderful
positive life.

Yes it's possible that meditation would
bring that.

Meditation is medicine for the mind.

(John): Yes, it is.

(John): So the 6th paramita is confidence,
or (Tibetan word)

Confidence.

(John): So self confidence? Is this what
we are talking about?

Yes, self confidence is very good,
self confidence if you practice.

Also too much confidence in not so good.
It becomes pride.

Self confidence is for example when
I know that I have the capabilty of

teaching other people. Teaching is to help
the others.

That kind of confidence is good.

Too much confidence is not so good.
Then comes pride.

Pride is one of the poisons too.

(John): So it always that balance of 
confidence and pride

we have to make sure. Too much confidence
might lead to pride.

"I'm the teacher. I have the knowledge." 
That's pride.

Confidence is a little bit different from
that.

I have the capability to teach.

I know these things, I have the capability
to teach.

I will not hold it to myself, I will teach
other people.

This teaching will help the others.

That kind of "nuba" (Tibetan word)
can help.

(John): Of course it also an be that
confidence it's more basic than

being a teacher, just being confident that
I'm a good person.

I think this is something many people 
in the West have challenge with, because

maybe they had some experience when 
they were a child and someone told them

that they were bad. And then they don't 
have this positive image of themselves.

So it's very good to have this confidence
in yourself,

that you are essentially a Buddha, within.

Yes. I can see this confidence in children sometimes.

When here in the West children are
taught in the school

how to talk with in front of 
other people.

From the child level they are teaching.

Whenever they got a chance they talk,
they are not shaking, they have a lot

of confidence to talk with the people.

If you look at the children from India or
from Nepal coming to the USA,

they are a little bit shy. They don't have
a confidence for that.

In the West children, sometime I feel,
have so much confidence.

So " Ok, I will do it" They never say: 
I don't know.

They say: " I know that".

Someone tells them "don't do that", they 
say: "yeah, I know that".

That is too much confidence. (laughing)

(John): Yeah. Again it's the balance of
confidence versus pride.

Yes, confidence and pride need to 
be balanced.

(John): So the 7th paramita is
compassion.

Of course this is a very important part
of the teachings.

Yes. Compassion "snying rje" (Tibetan )

"“nyen gye manu pala tsa" (Tibetan)

If someone does not have
enough food to eat

we have compassion for that.

After the compassion we can be
generous.

(John): Yes, you can show your generosity.

Yes, you can show generosity.

If an animal is injured, you feel
compassion for that.

After you have compassion, you take
action.

You need to take it to the hospital.

Take care for that.
That is compassion.

(John): Of course we should show 
compassion for eveyone that we know,

everyone that we meet,
everyone in our family.

Because everyone is experiencing
suffering.

Yes, everyone.

Whoever has suffering you can have
compassion for that.

(John): So everyone is experiencing it,
so we should have compassion for everyone.

(John): So the 8th paramita is the
aspirational prayer or monlam.

Maybe you could give us an example.
What would be an aspirational prayer?

Aspirational prayer we are doing it every
year.

" I wish you a very happy...". This is an
aspiration.

(John): "May you have a happy year"

I wish you a very happy year.

I wish you a better life or something
like that.

That is a monlam (Tibetan word). 
An aspiration.

(John): May your life be filled with
happiness.

Yes. Every year is like today. Every year 
be healthy, have good health.

This is all monlam, (Tibetan word).
An aspiration.

(John): We are wishing that someone have
a better life, a good life.

Wishing anything, wishing is a monlam,
(Tibetan word), aspiration.

(John): So this is connected with the
generosity and the compassion too,

because we are hoping that others
enjoy a beautiful life.

So the 9th is skillful means, which is in 
the dedication. Or "top" (Tibetan word)?

"Top" is the method. "Top" means idea.

(John): Careful thinking maybe.

Careful thinking, yes.

(John): Careful planning, careful
execution.

Yes, careful thinking. Helping through
different ideas is a "top" (Tibetan word)

(John): Yes. Many times we have the
motivation to help someone

or improve something, but we are not
careful about it and maybe we are

rushing too quickly. So this is a careful,
skillful way of helping others.

Yes, skillfully helping others.
That is "top".

(John): The final one is 
"Sherab" (Tibetan) or wisdom.

Wisdom, yes.

(John): We all could use more of this.

What do we mean by wisdom
exactly here?

There are many different ways that
wisdom might be interpreted.

Wisdom is something like intelligence.

If you learn something, you need 
more wisdom.

Someone learns really quickly. 
They have a lot of wisdom.

For someone it takes time to learn. 
There's less wisdom there.

Someone has a lot of experience, 
lot of knowledge,

that we call a lot of wisdom.

There is a lot of wisdom to carry
all the things.

(John): There is this one aspect of 
wisdom having intellectual knowledge,

or sharpness of the mind.

Yes, sharpness of the mind also.

(John): But there is also isn't there a
wisdom that just arises from the heart?

Like the wisdom of emptiness,
or the mirrorlike wisdom.

Speaking of the five of these wisdoms.

It's more about the mediative experience.

Yes. When you do the meditation,
first level it will be difficult to

do the meditation. When you do it again 
and again, more wisdom comes,

more knowledge comes out.
Better knowledge.

(John): More wisdom. 
We just say it, more wisdom.

More and more wisdom comes out,
more good things come out.

More experience comes out.

(John): The wisdom and experiences
arise directly from the meditation.

Not necessarily just throught thought.

Yeah. If you look at the Tantric 
masters, earlier masters,

when they meditate, more experience comes

and they thought to write it down.

Through the thinking, there is all
we call "gurma" (Tibetan)

Experience telling to people

(John): That arises directly from their
meditative experience

the text that they are writing, 
flows naturally.

Flows naturally yes.
Flows out.

If you look at one text
again and again and again,

more and more knowledge comes out
from that text.

After that you don't need to look
in a book.

When you start immediately everything
comes out.

There is more knowledge.

(John): It seems like that the Sutric
method is avoiding all these negativities

like lying, sexual misconduct, and 
stealing and so forth,

in combination with the 
cultivation of these paramitas.

leads to very happy life.

Yes, it leads to a happy life.

(John): And it serves as a very clear
guide for our behaviour.

Yes.

If you do all these things,
it leads to a very good life.

(John): It does lead to a good life.

Now the meditational methods in Sutra
are many times are analytical meditations,

like the meditation of impermanence 
for instance, where we are using the mind

to reflect on the truth, the inner most 
truth of something like

what can we find that's truly permanent.

And we think, we are using the mind to
think about these things.

So this is quite different from
Dzogchen meditation.

Also meditation on impermanence helps 
the practice too.

(John): Of course

When you are young, you are not thinking
of the impermanence.

You are energetic, you have power,
you think that this life is forever,

and you don't want to meditate.

Also Sutra is saying that our life is 
impermanent.

(John): No one is lives forever.

Yes. Children, boys and girls will become 
teenagers, then they will be men and women

and after that wifes and husbands.
Then their child call them parents,

and one day they will be called
grandpa and grandma,

then it's time to go.
Life will be finished.

That way it's all changing.

It's impermanent. We should think 
"now I need to do the virtuous things."

(John): It changes our mind when we 
understand impermanence.

This helps us to do the practice.

(John): Give us motivation.

Motivation, yes.

(John): Because we realize that nothing is
permanent in this life.

Also is Sutra there is the practice of 
emptiness.

If search for the table, you find out
that there is not a solid table there.

If you take it piece by piece,
then there is no table.

We are just giving name.

(John): Yes, that's one of the classic 
analytical meditations. You meditate

upon a table, - because people might not
be familiar with this meditation, -

and you try to find a table. You look at
every element of the table:

Is it the leg? Is it the top? 
Is it the side? Where is the table?

And you find that there is no table.
It's only our mind.

But this analytical process leads to
inside, it leads to a new wisdom.

Sutric teachings says that we are giving
name for things,

that are not not solid from the outside.

We give names to all the things.

Or when the boy is called by his mother
and father my son.

Wife says: my husband. Child says: 
my father.

Everybody is giving names.

(John): That's right.

They are not solid from
outside.

(John): It's always changing. From every
different perspective.

(John): I remember that one of the 
teachings I received on this was

when a monk was visiting me as a house
guest, and he start giving this teaching

on emptiness and we were eating pizza. 
He held up the pizza and said:

show me the pizza! Is it the mushroom?
Is it the olive? Is it the tomato?

No, we could find no pizza, while we were
eating the pizza.

Because this pizza was in our mind,
a name. Just a name we create.

Then you ask: where is the tomato? 
Is the tomato the colour?

Is the tomato the shape?

There is no tomato. (laughing)
Nothing is there.

(John): Nothing is there. Empty.

Empty. This Sutric practice leads
to the realization of emptiness.

(John): So in the Sutric analytical
process we are using the mind to think.

We are using thoughts.

While in the Dzogchen practice we are
trying to liberate the thought.

Yes, to liberate the thought.

(John): So it's a very different way to of
working with the thoughts.

Yes. Dzogchen says if thought comes
don't chase after thought.

Just leave it there.

If you leave them there, thoughts
will dissolve themselves.

So ok, we need an antidote for that.
You need to take it out from the root.

(John): With the Sutric analytic approach
we use the thought,

we don't try just liberate the thought.

Yes we don't liberate it.

(John): Because throught the thinking,
and through the sharp, clear mind,

which is really emphasized in the
debate especially in the monastery,

you can reach this insight.

Yes.

(John): So this meditation over
impermanence we were discussing,

is found in the Ngöndro, which is one of
the foundation mediation practice.

So it's considered to be very-very
fundamental.

Yes, it is fundamental. The practice of
impermanence is a fundamental

practice for everyone.

It's a foundation.

(John): It really changes your life
whenever

you have this understanding
of impermanence.

And the same is true for the 
meditation on emptiness.

These two are considered to be a very
fundamental meditation.

Looking at these practices, 
sometimes we are powerful,

sometimes we are down.
We are poor, then some years later

we become rich. 
This is all impermanence.

(John): That's wonderful.

Well, thank you very much Geshe la
for this explanation of these

Sutric meditations.

So the next part of the this course
people going to get to enjoy

a teaching by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche
on impermanence.

And then a meditation guided by Rinpoche
on impermanence.

Yes. This will be very helpful, he will 
explain everything in detail.

His English is a wonderful 
English. Not like my English. (laughing)

(John): I think your English is very
good.

(John): But this should have given you 
a very good taste of how we work

with these analytical meditations in the
Sutric way.

(John): Hope you have enjoyed.

Thank you.