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36C3 preroll music
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Herald: OK! Let’s come to the talk. So,
next up is Andrea Jungaberle. She is
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talking about drugs and how drugs affect
the psychiatry. Oh, that is a hard word.
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Why don't you do it, huh? I know now.
And the question is, after the—what
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is “Verbot” in English?
Andrea Jungaberle: Prohibition.
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Herald: Prohibition right, after the
prohibition in the ’70s, not much thinking
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about how these drugs work and how could
they improve psychiatry, has been done, so
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now everybody’s asking, is this the magic
bullet cure? I don’t believe so. But more
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about this by Andrea.
Well, warm welcome, please.
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applause
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Andrea: So hello, everybody. I'm very
happy to be here and able to talk to you
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on a topic that is very important to me
and I think very important to many people
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now and in the future. So the topic today
is psychedelic medicine, hacking,
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psychiatry. And just to give away the
punchline, it's not a magic bullet and
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will never be. But on the other hand,
there are lots of things to know and think
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about in this context that I would like
to introduce you to. But first, a few
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words about myself. I'm a medical doctor,
specialized in emergency medicine /
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intensive care. I work and live in Berlin.
And I'm also one of the founders of MIND,
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the European Foundation for Psychedelic
Science, and its current medical director.
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One more sentence about us. That's our
core team. So MIND is a members-based
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Psychedelic Science Association. We
have run 450 members worldwide and a core
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team of about 50 people. That is a nucleus
of paid staff, lots of very dedicated,
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very good volunteers and great interns
from different disciplines like the
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neurosciences, psychiatry, psychology, and
pharmacology, for example. So we work to
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establish psychedelic science as an
evidence-based method and also educate
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about it in Germany and Europe around it.
Okay, but let's dive in at the deep end.
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Psychedelics. What are psychedelics? Well,
the term comes from the Greek Psyche
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Delos, which could be translated as
“manifesting the mind of the psyche.” So
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many were talking about psychoactive
substances with a certain, well, capability
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of transforming one's perception,
introspection, sensory qualities in a very
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typical way that is sometimes described as
dreamlike, but not necessarily so. The
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classic psychedelics that are also called
hallucinogens, which I don't like as a
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term because they don't induce
hallucinations. What they do is induce
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pseudo-hallucinations; so somebody on a
psychedelic substance, usually in 99%
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of the time is aware that they have
taken a substance and what they're
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experiencing is due to the substance. So
it's not a hallucinogen, but a pseudo-
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hallucinogen. But these substances, like
the classics—LSD, psilocybin, or DMT—
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function in a very specific way and they all
are working on the serotoninergic system.
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So serotonin is one of the key
neurotransmitters and there's one receptor
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which is the 5-HT2A receptor, which is,
like, the smallest common denominator of
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all those substances, which doesn't say
that they all work just on this one, but
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they affect a whole plethora of
neurotransmitters and receptors. But this
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is the key where they all work. There are
other substances that are classified as
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somehow psychedelic, like the
entactogens—ecstasy, MDMA is one of the
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kind—which works also on the serotonin
system. Dissociatives, like ketamine,
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work more on the NMDA receptor and some
others; they are just basically chemical
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random, like Amanita, which is the Fly
Agaric Mushroom, or Datura, or Salvia. OK.
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This is the only slide I'm going to bother
you with this dry kind of science. But I
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think it's important to be clear about
this because even though psychedelics are
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a pop cultural meme, hardly anybody knows
anything about it, to be honest. Most
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people associate them with being drugs of
the same danger profile as methamphetamine
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or opioids. Think there is an addiction
factor which in fact does not exist with
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classic psychedelics. And basically it has
been the dirty corner of perception for
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many people for a very long time. Recently,
things have changed a bit. Psychedelics
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have come mainstream. Firstly, because
there is a perception shift on drugs in
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general due to the cannabis perception and
medication changing. And also because
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people like, for example, Michael Pollan,
who's a classic mainstream author writing
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on cooking and nutrition, have turned to
writing about psychedelics. And another
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factor that has helped psychedelics in one
way and harmed them and another is the
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whole microdosing craze we have seen,
especially in the tech and developmental
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scenes, and especially in the Bay Area and
Silicon Valley. OK, but where do they come
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from? In this talk, I am not going to
speak about psychedelic, psychoactive
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substances in other cultural frameworks.
There are cultures like in the Amazonian
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basin or some Aztec people in Mexico
who have been using psychoactive
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substances, psychedelics, in a very
ritualized sense for millennia, perhaps,
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or at least centuries. But this is not us.
So let's talk about what happened here in
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Europe or in the Western world, including
America. This guy up here, sorry, that's
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the wrong one. The pointer isn't strong
enough. We'll work like this. This nice
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guy up here is Albert Hofmann. In 1938, he
was developing several substances that
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were supposed to work on atonia and in
postpartum women, but also on other
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problems like blood pressure and he,
among other things, developed the
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thing that later became LSD. But
back then, he didn't see any sense in
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pursuing it medically because it didn't
work the way he wanted it to and he
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shelved it. And for some reason in ’43, he
took it out the shelf again to retest it
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for other purposes, and accidently gave
himself the first noted LSD trip. This
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happened not because he was a shitty
chemist, but because the amount that is
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needed to induce an effect is so low as it
has never been noted before in any other
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substance. So 20 micrograms of LSD can
already produce a notable change in
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perception. So when he came out of that
experience, this first one he had, after
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accidentally dosing himself, he decided
to go for, well, a trial on himself and
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trying to be safe. He used what he thought
was a very low dose of the substance he
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discovered, which turned out to be 250
micrograms of LSD, which was his… I hear
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the laughter. It’s rather a high dose
trip, especially for somebody who just
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didn't know what was expecting him out
there in his own mind. And this is the
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famous bicycle day trip where he rode home
on his bike thinking that the world was
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collapsing around him, basically. So even
this wasn't a nice trip, the first one. So
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what happened next was that he reported to
his superiors at Sandoz Chemical in Basel,
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and they had the idea of turning this
into a substance for many doctors,
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psychiatrists, psychologists, to experience
what it would be like to be psychotic. So
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its first application of LSD was as a
psychotomimetic. And as a psychoto-
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mimetic, thousands of dosages were
distributed worldwide from the
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Czech Republic to Harvard University to
everywhere. And doctors tried it out. What
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happened then was that a small group of
young, ambitious psychologists around
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Timothy Leary tried it out too, and
thought this is not just something for
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doctors. This is not just a psychoto-
mimetic and brought it out basically into,
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yeah, the real world. And people were
experimenting with LSD quite a bit in the
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’60s before it was forbidden in ’71. Not
because it turned out to be so dangerous.
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They were not so many accidents. Not so
many people had dire side effects. But
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because the political will to cope with
the substance and its implications wasn't
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existent in the Nixon era. So. ’71,
underground goes into subculture. But the
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genie was out of the bottle and it was not
going to go back in. And psychedelics, not
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only LSD, but also Psilocybin, later on
MDMA. And these days, more than 500 new
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psychoactive substances that have been
brought up on the black market are around
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us. And people use them. It's a societal
reality that our juridical system doesn't
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keep up with, to be fair. So it's been in
many subcultural setting from people just
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going dancing and having a good time to
self-exploration to pseudo-chamanic or
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chamanic settings. And I think most people
will at least know somebody who have
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experienced psychedelics at least once.
And then something else changed. A few
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years ago, let’s say, 10-ish, 10 years ago,
psychedelics started coming back. There
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had been research, for example, at the
University of Zürich around psychedelics
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before that already. There had been trials
before. But the big comeback of substances
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like psilocybin, LSD, and MDMA as tools to
augment psychotherapy was within the last
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10 or 15 years. So these people up here
are some of the people worldwide working
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with these substances, trying to develop
them into medications. So … not
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over-the-counter, but prescription
medications to be applied within the
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setting of psychotherapy. So the idea is
never that somebody can walk into a
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pharmacy saying, oh, I'm depressed, I want
to buy psilocybin to treat myself, but to
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have a structured therapeutical session in
which the effects can be contained and the
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benefits enhanced. So the ones that are
most promising these days are psilocybin
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for depression, which is already heading
for the third stage, third and final stage
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of approvement as medication within the USA
and consecutively hopefully in Europe. And
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MDMA, so what is used? What people want to
find if they buy ecstasy, not that they
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always get it, but MDMA is the substance
they're trying to get, for post-traumatic
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stress disorder (PTSD). In the U.S., even
the Veterans Association has jumped on the
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bandwagon and has sponsored this research,
which is interesting at least. But isn't
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that harmful? Aren't these substances
very dangerous? Well, not in the way you
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think and not as much as you might think.
This graphic up here is something that was
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put together by a group of 40 experts who
discussed what substances have what harm
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on the user and what harm on the people
around the users. So, for example, alcohol
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is harmful for the person, giving them a
liver disorder, making them addicted and
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so on, so on. But also because people get
aggressive when they use it or drive
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dangerously, for example, when they're
intoxicated, it's dangerous to others. If
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you check out. I have to walk over here
now. Sorry to the camera people. The
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substances we're talking about for
treatment are not up there with the very
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dangerous ones. We have the shrooms down
here, the LSD is there, ecstasy is there.
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So very low danger to the user and almost
no danger to other people. If you compare
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that to alcohol, heroin, tobacco, it's all
up there. And, to be quite fair, we’re all
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part of a giant field study anyway. Because
these substances are being used. This is
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data from the 2017 Global Drug Survey,
which is a self-reporting study where
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people talk about their own drug use
and fill in forms online. This is not a
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statistically sound sample of the general
population because to fill out that trial,
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you have to have a certain interest. But
the people that have filled this out—
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we're talking about a number of
over 115.000 worldwide—say that
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they have, in their lifetime, partially
used LSD. … were the numbers …? MDMA,
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mushrooms and LSD, so MDMA 35%,
mushrooms almost 25%, LSD over 22%.
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And if you look around you, of
how many people do you know who
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ended up in an emergency department
or in a psychiatric ward due to _only_ using
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those substances? Actually, looking at
this giant field study that the illegal
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market has provided us with, it seems to
be rather safe because these people
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are not using clear dosages of a clean
substance and still there's hardly
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anything happening. OK. But what about
microdosing? Well. We don't know much
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about microdosing, in fact. There are no
scientifically randomized controlled
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studies, as to yet; the first ones are just
starting. There are self-reporting studies
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where people have filled out online forms.
And it seems to be that what people are on
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one hand trying to achieve is, yes,
enhancing creativity, getting better work
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performance. But a lot of them are trying
to treat, cure, enhance that latent or
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apparent depression, and the other thing
is: microdosing—which is defined mostly as
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using a very low, almost subliminal dose
of a psychoactive substance such as LSD—is
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being done by people with all sorts. There
are people microdosing MDMA and ibogaine,
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which is, if you look at the receptor
profiles, just insane basically and
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frankly can't do what they hope it does.
And when we took a look at people who
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microdose, we can't say how much of
the effect they’re feeling is really from
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microdosing that substance or if we have a
top-notch, first-grade placebo effect going
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on where people feel much better because
they have taken this and believe in it.
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Let's not turn down placebo. Placebo is
extremely valuable medically. It’s
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actually shown that placebo effect, for
example, enhance the endogenous opioid
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production. So your body revs up towards
healing, towards feeling better with the
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placebo effect. But this could also be
done with a sugar pill. And there's one
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thing I just want to leave with you in
this group. If anybody of you is
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microdosing and has preexisting heart
condition: don't! Simply because some of
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the subreceptors, especially with LSD that
are being activated in prolonged micro
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dosing for a long time can be cardiotoxic
and possibly harm your heart. Just again,
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there's not clear data about this yet.
Just to leave it with you, if you suffer
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from a heart condition: don’t!
Depression. That keyword I had with the
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microdosing as well. But let's go
deeper into this, because if we want to
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talk about how psychedelic medicine can
really make a difference in psychiatry,
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depression is like, yeah, the first-line
thing to think and talk about and why is
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that? Depression is a very serious
psychiatric disorder. People who are
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severely depressed—and that's many people;
statistically, in Germany, every 8th
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woman is likely to suffer from a severe
depressive episode. At one point in their
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life or the other. People who are
depressed lose social functioning. They
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have very decreased life expectancy
partially through suicide, partially
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because they don't manage to care for
themselves. These people lose themselves
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and are being lost for others, too. And
there is treatment for depression, yes,
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but in many cases it only has a limited
capacity. And even though depression is a
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worldwide epidemic—with rates from
3% of the population in China to
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22% of the population in Afghanistan
suffering from it—there have not really
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been new forms of treatment for two, two
and a half decades‽ So the stuff we're
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working with is partially working, partly
not: about one third of patients don't
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react to the medication at all, even
though there's different types. And those
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who do usually have very low rates of
acceptance because of the side effects.
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Because many people use antidepressants,
and the best combination is cognitive
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behavior therapy—so what is called in
German “Verhaltenstherapie,” cognitive
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behavioral therapy—in conjunction with
antidepressants. That might work, but for
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some it doesn't. And those who take the
medication don't feel well. It's not that
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they're back to normal. They're just less
depressed. But usually they're like dimmed
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in on all sides. So they are still not
getting happy. The libido is decreased.
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Their activity levels are decreased.
People are suffering quite a bit from the
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side effects and it's really not nice. So.
I was just … just to tell you one
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little story. I told you I’m an
emergency medicine doctor. And just
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to illustrate how bad depression can get:
A few weeks ago, I was being called out to
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an attempt of suicide. A woman had jumped
out of her window on the fourth floor. We
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found her lying in her yard and she was...
injured, badly injured, but still alive,
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and we stabilized her and took her to
hospital, and when the nurse kind of
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pulled up her data in the emergency room,
she went like, oh, no, not again, because
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this woman had jumped out the same window
just half a year before. That's how bad
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this disease can be. So how desperate
people get and how terribly important it
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is for us not to look away, but try to
find better new therapies. And this is, in
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my opinion, with psychedelic medicine …
Psychedelic therapy can be a real game
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changer. The one therapeutic application
we have the best data for is psychedelics
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for treatment-resistant depression. There
are several studies going on in the UK, in
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the States, and Switzerland, but also in
the Czech Republic and so on, so on. And
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what they seem to be finding is that even
though they're still working with small
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samples because you have to fan out; if
you try to bring out a medication like
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that, you have to show first that it's
safe with healthy people and then you
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start with a small sample of sick people
and then you enlarge it from there. And
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they’re now in this enlarging process …
that's treating depression with psilocybin
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especially does not only decrease
depression in those patients, but also
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does one great thing: it decreases
anxiety! Not only talking about state
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anxiety, so how anxious people are at this
very moment in living their lives, but
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that trait anxiety. So how anxious people
are as a part of their personality, which
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is a good thing to gauge how likely people
are to relapse back into depression,
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people that are very anxious, very
insecure about life, are far more likely
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to relapse. OK, so you see, there's a lot
happening worldwide studying this, but
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this is Germany on that. A scientific
desert. We're in the largest country;
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It’s also the scientifically perhaps most
important country when it comes to medical
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research in Europe. There’s zilch
happening. There hasn't been a study on
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psychoactive compounds in this context,
forever, like 30 years, the last one on
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entactogens like 20 years ago. But
studying psychedelic here hasn't happened.
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And we want to change that. Let’s …
applause
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So we as the main foundation had, perhaps,
let's call it groundbreaking, what a
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groundbreaking conference this September
in Berlin at the Charité buildings.
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We had 600 participants, over 50
speakers from worldwide, everybody
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basically, almost everybody who's
important in this dialog scientifically
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was around. So from the pharmacology, the
psychiatrist, the psychologist, the
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therapist, but also philosophers talking
about a culture of older sets of mind have
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been around. And we have been trying to
bring this to the German public and try to
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lay groundwork for doing new science in
Germany. And what's to come next is this.
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With our P.I., so a principal investigator,
Gerhard Gründer, who is a
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new pharmacologist from the University of
Mannheim ZI. We are about to apply for the
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1st psilocybin depression study in Germany
this next year. So in 2020, we're
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putting in the applications, we've already
put the first paperwork in, and what we
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want to do is do a double standard study,
both at the ZI Mannheim and the
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Charité Berlin. Those are the two most
renowned psychiatric research facilities
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in Germany. And it's a collaboration from
the ZI, Charité, and the MIND Foundation.
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Each group contributing their knowledge,
their capabilities, and their strengths.
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And what we want to do is this. We
want to do a double blind, randomized
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controlled phase IIa study. Big word.
this basically means that … It’s a
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top-notch level, internationally acclaimed
study. This is how these studies need to be
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done to have any value. So it's double
blind, meaning that neither the patient
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nor the therapist know what this patient
is getting. It's randomized. So this gets
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assigned without anybody playing around
with it. And phase II means that it's a
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safety and efficacy study, so not yet dose
testing and not yet comparing dosages, but
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just trying to make sure it works. And we
are going to do that in a 144 participants
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sample in total, in two locations, which
is huge. This will be the second or third
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biggest sample worldwide doing this. And
the first one in Germany, as we said and
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what we are going to test is 25
milligrams of standardised GMP. So
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Medical Grade Psilocybin versus two active
placebos. One being a small dose of
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psilocybin, which used to be the standard
thing to do. But now talking about
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microdosing, what is if the small doses
already does something? And testing it
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against another placebo that isn't
psilocybin, which is: there’s some physical
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reaction, but is not psychedelic in this
sense. So in this design, every patient
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will receive at least one—some two—high
dosages of psilocybin. So everybody who
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gets accepted will have his try. And the
study design consists of preparation
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sessions, dosing sessions where people
receive either placebo or psilocybin and
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integration sessions. Integration is so
important and not only in a scientific
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study on this topic, but if people are
working with psychedelics, experimenting
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with psychedelics themselves, integration
is the key to do something with the
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experience. Because if you don't work with
it actively, the experience is going to
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fade. And you might remember something
about what you learned, but it will not
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have the impact on you, your life, and how
you—yeah—benefit from what you've seen
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and learned in that way. Right. Just one
more sentence. It's mixed funding, its
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funding and progress. So we have some
public money coming in, but we're also
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looking for donations and investment just
at the side. And this is almost the end of
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my talk. What I want to say is the
following: What we try at the moment
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is to establish safe and legal psychedelic
therapies in Germany, Europe, and the
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world. This is going to take time. If
things go well, we might be there in five
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to ten years—five if things go really
well. And I know that it's very tempting
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for many people to say: “Well, I can
just go to somebody and have a
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psilocybin session. I can go to somebody,
have an ayahuasca session.” And yes, you
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can. But be aware if you do that, because
you're really suffering from psychiatric
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disease, if you have a mental illness, if
you really are in distress. Be very
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careful with yourself, because the thing
is, you need somebody to really support
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you, really help you through somebody who
really knows what they're dealing with,
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because otherwise you can do yourself more
harm than good. This picture down there
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with the ambulance is a real picture.
Right. That's what I wanted to say.
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Thank you very much for having me. If
you're interested in what we're doing,
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check it out!
appplause
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Herald: Andrea, thank you very much.
That gives us plenty of time for some
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questions. People are lining up on the
microphones already. So we start with
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microphone number two, please.
Mic 1: Thank you for this amazing talk.
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That's really great. Just one question.
Wouldn't that be a problem for a double
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blind study if a person can surely tell if
they're experiencing psychedelic effects?
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Andrea: That is a problem. Yes, but this
is the way the authorities request the
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study to be done. And interestingly
enough, there have been cases where people
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couldn't tell. If people thought they were
either on a small dosage or on a high
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dosage, or even if they where on an
inactive placebo. Right. So the self…
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Yeah, self-suggestive capabilities of
people should not be underestimated
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either.
Herald: Okay, then we're going to jump
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over to number six.
Mic 6: Thank you very much for the
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talk. I would like to hear your opinion on
the fact that, uh, like in the last 150
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years, most drug agents were discovered
in Germany, and meanwhile, we have
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the pity of scientifically Germany
lying in Arizona.
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laughter
Andrea: Right. Germany has two points that
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historically hold us back. One is the
forced human trials during the Nazi era
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where substances, techniques, were tested on
concentration camp prisoners. And we have
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the Contergan scandal that harmed so many
people and led to, in all of the world,
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the stricter rules we have now. That's two
reasons why Germany is so reluctant to
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expose itself in this kind of process. But
still, it is a pity. And I think it is
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about time that the German not only
government, but also the scientific
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establishment gets to understand that they
lose out and they are trading behind a
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development that has
started and will continue.
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Herald: And now we have a question
from the Internet, I hear.
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Signal Angel: Yes! For people
struggling with depression, anxiety, or
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mental illnesses: What specific options
are there in Europe with regards to
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psychedelic-assisted therapy?
Andrea: Well, one is that you can try to
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participate in the existing trial. So, for
example, in London, there's Kings College
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and Imperial College, there's a group in
Bristol working, there's also therapy
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happening in Switzerland and so on. And
there's also, if you happen to be lucky
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enough to live in Switzerland, there's the
so-called compassionate use where
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psychiatrists with special permits are
allowed to use LSD and MDMA as therapeutic
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agents on a case-to-case basis that they
have to discuss with the authorities.
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So that's all we can say for now:
study participation or compassionate use.
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We just really hope that
things will rev up and we'll be able
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to offer more in the future.
Herald: And microphone number 4, please.
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Mic 4: Yeah. Hello. Thank you
very much for your talk.
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My question is more related to
the history of the uses of psychedelics
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in the US and to the MAPS Association
founded by Rick Doblin, but I was curious,
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how would you explain that MAPS is so
actively criticizing the experiments led
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in the 1950s and ’60s by the CIA, and yet
they accept donations of several million
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dollars coming from the Mercer family, who
are among the largest shareholders of
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Cambridge Analytica, Breitbart News, and
they also accept, they accepted recently
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about three millions from members of Tea
Party. Isn't it a bit of an irony here?
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applause
Andrea: That is a very good question. The
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way I know Rick Doblin and many people
from MAPS personally, I know that they're
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pursuing an honest goal. What they’re
trying to do is bring this into the world
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and they have been doing that since 1986.
So they've been on this for almost 35
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years. He's dedicated his life to doing
that. I don't fully understand his
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motives. I don't have to, to be honest,
because I'm not speaking for him. I think
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there is a huge necessity for integrity
because if we don't—as people working
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with it scientifically—if we don't move
along with the necessary integrity, we're
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opening the doors for other people to
don't care at all. But on the other hand,
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finding the money, getting this done and a
lot … he was … Rick was criticized a lot,
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for example, for accepting veterans;
snipers from Iraq into his therapy
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program. Like, okay, are you not getting
people fit again to go out back to the
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battlefield? And I find this all very
difficult because there is a thing that is
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called perpetrated PTSD. There is a thing
of people only realizing afterwards what
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they have done. And I would not … I
would be very careful in judging people in
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distress. But you're very right. It's a
very delicate topic. And I think we all
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have to be very aware that there are thin
paths we are threading in what we're
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doing there. When we accept money that
comes from sources that don't follow
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ethical standards.
Herald: Then we're going to switch over to
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microphone number five.
Mic 5: Hello, I guess you have a really
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nice answer to the following statement. So
I hope you will share your answer:
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Little Greta twittered today that the
house is on fire and just that. So
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actually that means an adequate reaction
would be to jump out of the window. So you
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could argue that actually we should rescue
all the people that are really down, like
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down and out, because they cannot help us
anymore. But actually, we should get the
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people that are still happy to be a little
depressed instead of all getting them
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happy. What do you say?
Andrea: There's always two ways of dealing
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with a system: You can step out of it,
and you can try to change it from within.
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It is always very difficult to go from
caring for the individual to things that
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are right for all. And me being a doctor,
for example, I have simply decided to put
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the individual in the center of my
concern, and I think others need to put
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the greater good in the center of their
concern. I think it's inconsolable. We
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can't do both at the same time. So it's
good to make your decision and do this
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what you do with all your heart.
Herald: Then we're going to switch over to
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the Internet again.
Signal Angel: Yes. And do you know of any
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studies or evidence corroborating the
other side, like triggering mental
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illnesses by using psychedelics, for
example, if you have a family history of …?
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Andrea: Well, doing a randomized,
controlled study with that would be
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unethical. So what we have is the
epidemiological and the anecdotal
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evidence that is found. So, yes,
if you have a predisposition for
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psychosis, for schizophrenia, for mental
instability, there is a large chance of
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triggering that if you use psychedelics.
But on the other hand, many people try to
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self-medicate with substances, be it
psychedelics or cannabis, because they're
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feeling they're already on the edge of
some instability. But the current paradigm
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for the studies is to exclude people
whose direct family is affected by
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psychosis.
Herald: Number two just disappeared, so
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we're gonna go straight over to four.
Mic 4: I would like to ask you whether you
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changed your mind about anything related
to psychedelics in last few years or if
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you have seen something in the
research that really surprised you?
383
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Andrea: Let’s … Well, I am worried. In a
few respects. Like, for example, the whole
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development around the 5-MeO scene, people
using bufo alvarius toxins for very, very strong
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psychedelic experiences, sometimes risking
their live doing it. This whole scene
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kind of lifting from the ground and going
in a very strange direction, in my
387
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opinion. This is kind of worrying me
because I think people are not taking the
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care they should be taking of themselves
in what they are doing. But otherwise, I
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think scientific results we're seeing are
rather consistent. It's very important to
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know that these are not magic bullets and
not expect too much. You can’t expect
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something to cure everything. And
psychedelics seem to be a good idea
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for people who are rigid, transfixed, not
able to transcend something. But people
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who are already like in a chaotic state
are very unlikely to benefit. And I think
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that's a very good basic rule. And
this is something I see proven
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time and time again.
Herald: Number five, please.
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Mic 5: Hi, thanks. Regarding certain
setting and how it can have such a huge
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influence on one's experience, can you
comment on the setting of the new
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psilocybin study in the upcoming year?
Andrea: Like all the studies that are
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00:37:58,140 --> 00:38:03,030
being ta… being done, certain settings
are being taken into consideration. These
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people don't trip in a sterile white
hospital bed. They get to have their
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00:38:09,650 --> 00:38:14,480
psychedelic experience in a warm,
comfortable, organic, welcoming
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00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:22,030
environment. For example, on a couch with
a nice cushion, nice dim light, flowers,
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00:38:22,030 --> 00:38:27,340
music is extremely important. There have
been released scientific works around what
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00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:31,146
kind of music is beneficial for those.
Mendel Kaelen, for example, at Imperial
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00:38:31,146 --> 00:38:36,160
College is a specialist in this kind of
music and is being taken very seriously.
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00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:43,008
Also, those questions of how much physical
contact is beneficial, is allowed. What
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00:38:43,008 --> 00:38:48,020
could harm the patient is discussed very
precisely in all those groups I know,
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00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:52,330
because this is so much more than just a
pill. This is really about making sure
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that people have a safe experience where
they can, yeah, come to healing inside
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00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:01,060
themselves
Mic 5: Thank you.
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00:39:01,060 --> 00:39:05,800
Herald: So we have time for one more
question. Number one, please.
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Mic 1: I don't know if I want to hear the
answer, but do you think it would help
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00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:16,750
your cause if you would stop
take these drugs for fun?
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00:39:16,750 --> 00:39:25,690
Andrea: My answer to this is the
following: Imagine there was a food
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00:39:25,690 --> 00:39:33,020
thing, something that tasted nice; let’s
say chocolate and there were people
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who could only survive if they got
chocolate. But because everybody else was
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00:39:37,850 --> 00:39:41,690
doing it too, and it was somehow
not okay, it would be forbidden for
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00:39:41,690 --> 00:39:47,940
everybody. Then I would say, well if you
replace chocolate with LSD, I think there
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are people there who really need it. And
we have to be careful that recreational
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use and playing around with drugs doesn't
spoil their chance to something lifesaving
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00:39:59,260 --> 00:40:03,710
because they need the chocolate. You might
get along without, but it's something we
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00:40:03,710 --> 00:40:08,890
have to take into consideration. This
doesn't mean it's wrong to have psychedelic
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experience for your own benefit, for your
own betterment, for your own fun. But just
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00:40:13,330 --> 00:40:17,070
keep in mind, if you're hindering with
your wanting to have a good time that
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somebody gets a life-saving therapy,
perhaps, then this is an ethical problem
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we are facing.
Herald: Andrea, thank you so much.
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That's your applause.
applause
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36c3 rollout music
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00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:58,884
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