1 00:00:00,016 --> 00:00:02,860 David Biello: It's now my great honor and privilege 2 00:00:02,884 --> 00:00:05,388 to introduce Dr. Georges Benjamin, 3 00:00:05,412 --> 00:00:09,968 who's the executive director of the American Public Health Association, 4 00:00:09,992 --> 00:00:13,209 who has a long and distinguished career, 5 00:00:13,233 --> 00:00:16,820 both as a medical professional and as a public health professional. 6 00:00:17,265 --> 00:00:20,352 Please give a warm welcome to Dr. Georges Benjamin. 7 00:00:23,290 --> 00:00:25,307 Georges Benjamin: Hey, David, how are you? 8 00:00:25,331 --> 00:00:27,823 DB: I am good, how are you, Dr.Benjamin? 9 00:00:27,847 --> 00:00:30,196 GB: I'm here. (Laughs) 10 00:00:30,556 --> 00:00:32,080 DB: Hanging in there. Good. 11 00:00:32,104 --> 00:00:33,302 GB: Hanging in. 12 00:00:33,794 --> 00:00:39,722 DB: We know that the theme of the moment is reopening, I would say. 13 00:00:40,540 --> 00:00:43,024 We just heard one possibility for that, 14 00:00:43,048 --> 00:00:44,657 but obviously, 15 00:00:44,681 --> 00:00:47,933 a lot of countries have already reopened in one form or another, 16 00:00:47,957 --> 00:00:50,264 and I believe, as of today, 17 00:00:50,288 --> 00:00:55,088 all 50 states here in the US have reopened in one form or another. 18 00:00:56,969 --> 00:01:01,199 How do we do that smartly, how do we do that safely? 19 00:01:02,263 --> 00:01:06,388 GB: Yeah, we really do need to reopen safely and carefully, 20 00:01:06,412 --> 00:01:12,980 and it means that we have not got to forget these public health measures 21 00:01:13,004 --> 00:01:15,632 that really brought down the curve to begin with. 22 00:01:15,656 --> 00:01:18,974 And that means thing such as 23 00:01:18,998 --> 00:01:21,704 covering up your nose and mouth when you cough or sneeze, 24 00:01:21,728 --> 00:01:24,301 wearing a mask, washing your hands, 25 00:01:24,325 --> 00:01:27,643 physically distancing yourself to the extent possible from others. 26 00:01:28,580 --> 00:01:30,882 Thinking about everything we do, 27 00:01:30,906 --> 00:01:33,720 you know, before we go to work in the morning, 28 00:01:33,744 --> 00:01:35,116 while we're at work. 29 00:01:35,648 --> 00:01:39,879 And being as careful as many of us have been 30 00:01:39,903 --> 00:01:41,489 in the last two months, 31 00:01:41,513 --> 00:01:43,656 as we go into the next three months, 32 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,323 because this thing is not over. 33 00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:47,068 DB: Right. 34 00:01:47,092 --> 00:01:52,457 There is the chance of more waves, as Uri mentioned. 35 00:01:53,315 --> 00:01:56,900 It seems like it's kind of incumbent on all of us then 36 00:01:56,924 --> 00:02:00,403 to take public health as kind of second job. 37 00:02:00,427 --> 00:02:02,509 Is that right? 38 00:02:03,371 --> 00:02:05,696 GB: You know, I've been arguing a lot 39 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,656 that now that everybody really knows what public health is, 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,839 that everybody should recognize that their second job is public health, 41 00:02:13,863 --> 00:02:17,609 whether you're picking up the garbage or working in a grocery store, 42 00:02:17,633 --> 00:02:20,244 or you are a bus driver, 43 00:02:20,268 --> 00:02:23,593 or you're, you know, like me, doing public health, 44 00:02:23,617 --> 00:02:24,807 physician or a nurse, 45 00:02:24,831 --> 00:02:28,482 everybody needs to put the public health [unclear] 46 00:02:28,506 --> 00:02:30,973 into what they do each and every day. 47 00:02:32,712 --> 00:02:34,244 DB: What do you think -- 48 00:02:34,268 --> 00:02:36,418 So we're all public health professionals now, 49 00:02:36,442 --> 00:02:40,847 what do you think the new normal we might expect, 50 00:02:40,871 --> 00:02:44,283 as countries reopen? 51 00:02:44,307 --> 00:02:46,537 What is that going to look like, 52 00:02:46,561 --> 00:02:49,923 or what do you hope that looks like, as a public health professional? 53 00:02:50,458 --> 00:02:53,458 GB: If I could wave a magic wand, 54 00:02:53,482 --> 00:02:56,699 I would clearly recognize 55 00:02:56,723 --> 00:03:00,181 that people are going to be doing a lot more of the public health things, 56 00:03:00,205 --> 00:03:02,110 in terms of handwashing 57 00:03:02,134 --> 00:03:06,690 and thinking about what they do around safety when they go out in public. 58 00:03:06,714 --> 00:03:09,164 You know, it was not too long ago 59 00:03:09,188 --> 00:03:12,099 when you got in your car and you didn't put your seat belt on. 60 00:03:12,123 --> 00:03:13,275 Today we do it, 61 00:03:13,299 --> 00:03:15,100 and we don't think anything about it. 62 00:03:15,878 --> 00:03:18,307 Most of us don't smoke, 63 00:03:18,331 --> 00:03:20,308 because we know that it's bad for us. 64 00:03:20,704 --> 00:03:24,363 Most of us look both ways before we cross a street. 65 00:03:24,886 --> 00:03:27,705 Most of us, you know, 66 00:03:27,729 --> 00:03:31,022 do things in our house, that are, fix trip hazards. 67 00:03:31,046 --> 00:03:33,871 So as we go forward with this outbreak, 68 00:03:33,895 --> 00:03:36,328 I'm hoping that people will pay a lot more attention 69 00:03:36,352 --> 00:03:39,811 to things that can cause us to get an infection. 70 00:03:39,835 --> 00:03:43,938 So you know, cleaning things, disinfecting things. 71 00:03:45,264 --> 00:03:48,057 More importantly, not coming to work if you're sick. 72 00:03:48,764 --> 00:03:53,248 I'm hoping that employers will put in paid sick leave for everybody, 73 00:03:53,272 --> 00:03:55,080 so people can stay home. 74 00:03:55,104 --> 00:03:57,105 Yeah, it’s an additional cost, 75 00:03:57,129 --> 00:03:59,482 but I can tell you that we've now learned 76 00:03:59,506 --> 00:04:03,371 that the cost of not doing something like that 77 00:04:03,395 --> 00:04:05,878 is billions and billions and billions of dollars. 78 00:04:06,349 --> 00:04:08,944 Paid sick leave is pretty cheap when you do that. 79 00:04:09,523 --> 00:04:12,671 DB: Yeah, we are, I think, envious in the United States 80 00:04:12,695 --> 00:04:16,204 of all the countries that perhaps have 81 00:04:16,228 --> 00:04:19,212 a more all-encompassing health care system than we do. 82 00:04:20,053 --> 00:04:23,394 Would you agree that masks are kind of the symbol 83 00:04:23,418 --> 00:04:29,402 of adopting that "public health professional as a second job" mindset? 84 00:04:30,236 --> 00:04:31,737 GB: Well, you know, it's funny. 85 00:04:31,761 --> 00:04:36,157 Our colleagues in Asia have had a mask -- 86 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,054 Wearing mask as a culture for many, many years. 87 00:04:41,234 --> 00:04:44,336 And you know, we've always kind of chuckled at that. 88 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,941 When I went overseas, I would always kind of chuckle 89 00:04:46,965 --> 00:04:48,912 when I saw people wearing masks. 90 00:04:49,601 --> 00:04:51,474 And of course, when this first started, 91 00:04:51,498 --> 00:04:54,990 you know, we only promoted masks for people that were infected 92 00:04:55,014 --> 00:04:56,704 or of course, health care workers, 93 00:04:56,728 --> 00:04:59,076 who we thought were in a higher-risk environment. 94 00:04:59,387 --> 00:05:01,689 But I think that wearing masks 95 00:05:01,713 --> 00:05:04,193 is probably going to be part of our culture. 96 00:05:05,174 --> 00:05:08,421 We've already seen it probably will not be part of our beach culture, 97 00:05:08,445 --> 00:05:10,468 although it probably should be for now. 98 00:05:10,492 --> 00:05:14,468 But I do think that we're going to see more and more people wearing masks 99 00:05:14,492 --> 00:05:16,092 in a variety of settings. 100 00:05:16,485 --> 00:05:18,419 And I think that makes sense. 101 00:05:18,914 --> 00:05:22,204 DB: Yeah, wear your mask to show that you care about others. 102 00:05:22,524 --> 00:05:25,382 And that you have this, kind of, public health spirit. 103 00:05:25,838 --> 00:05:27,599 So speaking of Asia, 104 00:05:27,623 --> 00:05:30,654 who has done well? 105 00:05:30,678 --> 00:05:33,561 Looking around the world, you've been doing this for a while, 106 00:05:33,585 --> 00:05:35,535 and communicated with your peers, 107 00:05:35,559 --> 00:05:36,715 who has done well 108 00:05:36,739 --> 00:05:40,010 and what can we learn from those good examples? 109 00:05:40,733 --> 00:05:43,669 GB: Yeah, South Korea in many ways is the role model. 110 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:47,547 You know, China actually, at the end of the day, 111 00:05:47,571 --> 00:05:48,904 did reasonably well. 112 00:05:49,507 --> 00:05:51,444 But the secret to all of those countries 113 00:05:51,468 --> 00:05:54,618 that had had less morbidity and mortality than we have, 114 00:05:54,642 --> 00:05:58,678 is they did lots of testing very early on, 115 00:05:58,702 --> 00:06:02,677 they did contact tracing and isolation and quarantine, 116 00:06:02,701 --> 00:06:06,106 which by the way, is the bedrock of public health practice. 117 00:06:06,630 --> 00:06:09,353 They did it early, they did a lot of it, 118 00:06:09,377 --> 00:06:13,203 and by the way, even though they're reopening their society, 119 00:06:13,227 --> 00:06:16,623 and they're beginning to see episodic surges, 120 00:06:16,647 --> 00:06:19,322 they then go back to those basic public health practices 121 00:06:19,346 --> 00:06:24,602 of testing, isolation, contact tracing 122 00:06:24,626 --> 00:06:28,745 and transparency to the public when they can, 123 00:06:28,769 --> 00:06:33,453 because it's important for the public to understand how many cases there are, 124 00:06:33,477 --> 00:06:35,268 where the disease is, 125 00:06:35,292 --> 00:06:37,845 if you're going to get compliance from the public. 126 00:06:39,046 --> 00:06:42,418 DB: So testing, contact tracing and isolation. 127 00:06:42,442 --> 00:06:47,101 That doesn't seem like rocket science, to use that old cliché. 128 00:06:47,743 --> 00:06:51,931 Why has that been hard for some countries to implement? 129 00:06:51,955 --> 00:06:53,638 What's holding us back, 130 00:06:53,662 --> 00:06:55,447 is it electronic medical records, 131 00:06:55,471 --> 00:06:57,415 is it some fancy doodad, 132 00:06:57,439 --> 00:07:01,312 or is it just maybe overconfidence, 133 00:07:01,336 --> 00:07:05,093 based on maybe the public health successes of the last 100 years? 134 00:07:05,671 --> 00:07:09,117 GB: You know, we are very much a pill society. 135 00:07:09,141 --> 00:07:11,093 We think there's a pill for everything. 136 00:07:11,799 --> 00:07:14,285 If we can't give you a pill for it, 137 00:07:14,309 --> 00:07:16,482 then we can give you surgery and fix it. 138 00:07:16,506 --> 00:07:18,688 You know, prevention works. 139 00:07:19,133 --> 00:07:22,400 And we have totally under invested in prevention. 140 00:07:22,768 --> 00:07:26,616 We've totally under invested in a strong, robust, 141 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:27,975 public health system. 142 00:07:27,999 --> 00:07:32,033 If you look at the fact that in America today, 143 00:07:32,057 --> 00:07:36,638 you can very easily know 144 00:07:36,662 --> 00:07:39,390 what's coming off the shelf of a grocery store, 145 00:07:39,414 --> 00:07:43,021 Amazon knows everything there is to know about you, 146 00:07:43,045 --> 00:07:46,863 but your doctor does not have the same tools. 147 00:07:47,180 --> 00:07:48,704 At three o’clock in the morning, 148 00:07:48,728 --> 00:07:52,061 it's still very difficult to get a hold of your electrocardiogram 149 00:07:52,085 --> 00:07:55,233 or your medical record, or your list of allergies 150 00:07:55,257 --> 00:07:57,696 if you can't tell the practitioner what you have. 151 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,625 And we just haven't invested in robust systems. 152 00:08:00,649 --> 00:08:03,466 One of the interesting things about this outbreak 153 00:08:03,490 --> 00:08:05,315 is that it has created an environment 154 00:08:05,339 --> 00:08:08,641 in which we're now dependent on telemedicine, 155 00:08:08,665 --> 00:08:10,577 which has been around for several years, 156 00:08:10,601 --> 00:08:12,640 but we weren't quite into it. 157 00:08:12,664 --> 00:08:15,188 But now, it's probably going to be the new standard. 158 00:08:16,101 --> 00:08:17,253 DB: But it also seems -- 159 00:08:17,277 --> 00:08:18,499 So, obviously, 160 00:08:18,523 --> 00:08:22,901 those countries with an incredibly robust health care system, 161 00:08:22,925 --> 00:08:24,792 like Taiwan, have done well, 162 00:08:24,816 --> 00:08:28,553 but it seems like even countries that perhaps would be considered 163 00:08:28,577 --> 00:08:33,706 to have a less robust health care system, like Ghana in Africa, 164 00:08:33,730 --> 00:08:35,063 have actually done well. 165 00:08:35,087 --> 00:08:38,687 What has been the, I guess, the secret sauce 166 00:08:38,711 --> 00:08:40,712 for those kinds of countries? 167 00:08:40,736 --> 00:08:44,228 GB: Yeah, it's still pretty early in some of their exposures, 168 00:08:44,252 --> 00:08:48,926 and hopefully, they might not have a wave that comes later, 169 00:08:48,950 --> 00:08:50,950 that's still a possibility, 170 00:08:50,974 --> 00:08:52,268 but at the end of the day, 171 00:08:52,292 --> 00:08:57,230 I think, to the extent you have done good, sound public health practices, 172 00:08:57,254 --> 00:08:59,648 all of the countries that have done well 173 00:08:59,672 --> 00:09:00,859 have implemented that. 174 00:09:00,883 --> 00:09:04,024 Now we're a big country, we're a complex country. 175 00:09:04,048 --> 00:09:07,499 And yes, we didn't get the testing right to begin with. 176 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,520 But we should not repeat the mistakes that we had over the last three months, 177 00:09:12,544 --> 00:09:15,164 because we've still got several months to go. 178 00:09:15,188 --> 00:09:17,095 And now that we know what we did wrong, 179 00:09:17,119 --> 00:09:19,583 I'm encouraging us to do it right the next time. 180 00:09:20,180 --> 00:09:21,592 DB: That seems smart. 181 00:09:21,616 --> 00:09:23,319 GB: And the next time is tomorrow. 182 00:09:23,767 --> 00:09:25,284 DB: That's right. 183 00:09:25,308 --> 00:09:26,712 It's already started. 184 00:09:26,736 --> 00:09:28,244 I mean, it almost seems to me, 185 00:09:28,268 --> 00:09:29,561 if I can use this metaphor, 186 00:09:29,585 --> 00:09:30,990 that some of these countries 187 00:09:31,014 --> 00:09:33,823 already had the kind of, antibodies in their system, 188 00:09:33,847 --> 00:09:37,997 because they had experience with maybe Ebola or the first SARS. 189 00:09:39,276 --> 00:09:41,791 Is that the key, previous exposure 190 00:09:41,815 --> 00:09:44,415 to these kind of, public health crises? 191 00:09:44,926 --> 00:09:46,936 GB: Well, this is a very different virus. 192 00:09:47,243 --> 00:09:50,022 And while there may be some early evidence 193 00:09:50,046 --> 00:09:53,513 that MERS and SARS one, 194 00:09:53,537 --> 00:09:57,186 we may have some early protection from that, 195 00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:59,998 there's some early, early studies looking at that, 196 00:10:00,022 --> 00:10:01,252 that's not the solution. 197 00:10:01,276 --> 00:10:06,287 The secret sauce here is good, solid, public health practice. 198 00:10:06,311 --> 00:10:08,089 That's the secret sauce here. 199 00:10:08,113 --> 00:10:12,133 We should not be looking for anything, any mysticism, 200 00:10:12,157 --> 00:10:15,450 or anyone to come [unclear] with a special pill. 201 00:10:15,474 --> 00:10:18,379 This is all about good, solid, public health practice, 202 00:10:18,403 --> 00:10:20,085 because, by the way, look, 203 00:10:20,109 --> 00:10:22,522 this was was a bad one, 204 00:10:22,546 --> 00:10:24,279 but it's not the last one. 205 00:10:24,847 --> 00:10:27,395 And so we need to prepare for the next really big one. 206 00:10:27,419 --> 00:10:28,974 We think this one was bad, 207 00:10:28,998 --> 00:10:32,458 imagine what would have happened had Ebola been aerosolized, 208 00:10:32,482 --> 00:10:35,585 or MERS had been earosolized. 209 00:10:35,609 --> 00:10:37,409 You know, pick a TV movie. 210 00:10:38,869 --> 00:10:40,649 Even though this was a bad one, 211 00:10:40,673 --> 00:10:44,426 we still dodged a really, really bad one this time. 212 00:10:45,395 --> 00:10:48,943 DB: Yeah, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome is no joke, 213 00:10:48,967 --> 00:10:52,012 and we should be thankful that it doesn't spread more easily, 214 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:53,363 like SARS-CoV. 215 00:10:53,387 --> 00:10:54,538 Is this though -- 216 00:10:54,562 --> 00:10:56,392 So all these diseases are zoonotic, 217 00:10:56,416 --> 00:10:59,928 that means they jumped to us from the animals that are out there. 218 00:11:00,585 --> 00:11:03,644 Obviously, humanity is kind of, encroaching on nature 219 00:11:03,668 --> 00:11:06,593 in an ever more, kind of, urgent way, 220 00:11:06,617 --> 00:11:11,191 whether that's climate change or going into the forests, what have you. 221 00:11:11,215 --> 00:11:13,966 Is this just the new normal, 222 00:11:13,990 --> 00:11:17,743 like, we should expect pandemics every so often? 223 00:11:18,561 --> 00:11:20,961 GB: Well, they do come periodically, 224 00:11:20,985 --> 00:11:23,525 so this is not, you know, the first pandemic, right? 225 00:11:23,549 --> 00:11:26,287 We've had several, 226 00:11:26,311 --> 00:11:30,778 100 years ago, the 1918 influenza, 227 00:11:30,802 --> 00:11:34,972 SARS was a significant infection, 228 00:11:34,996 --> 00:11:37,601 even though it didn't get this bad, SARS one. 229 00:11:37,625 --> 00:11:39,958 And we had avian flu, 230 00:11:39,982 --> 00:11:42,219 which was a challenge, 231 00:11:42,243 --> 00:11:43,625 and the swine flu. 232 00:11:43,928 --> 00:11:45,196 We had Zika. 233 00:11:45,220 --> 00:11:48,680 So no, we've had several new disease outbreaks. 234 00:11:48,704 --> 00:11:52,633 These emerging diseases happen a lot, 235 00:11:52,657 --> 00:11:55,141 and in many ways, 236 00:11:55,165 --> 00:11:56,418 we've been fortunate 237 00:11:56,442 --> 00:11:59,688 that we have been able to identify them early, 238 00:11:59,712 --> 00:12:01,156 and contain them. 239 00:12:01,831 --> 00:12:03,633 But we're now in an environment 240 00:12:03,657 --> 00:12:06,379 where people can by the way, make some of these things up. 241 00:12:06,403 --> 00:12:10,577 Now, this one did not happen, as best we can tell, it's not man-made. 242 00:12:11,228 --> 00:12:13,650 It did not probably come out of a leak in the lab. 243 00:12:13,674 --> 00:12:18,989 But we know that, when I was in school, 244 00:12:19,013 --> 00:12:21,638 to grow a bug, you had to be pretty sophisticated. 245 00:12:22,163 --> 00:12:23,862 That's not the case today. 246 00:12:23,886 --> 00:12:28,353 And we need to protect ourselves from both naturally occurring infections, 247 00:12:28,377 --> 00:12:31,741 and from those that are created by humans. 248 00:12:32,630 --> 00:12:35,781 DB: Plus we have other kind of, threat multipliers, 249 00:12:35,805 --> 00:12:37,297 like climate change, 250 00:12:37,321 --> 00:12:40,974 that make pandemics like this that much worse. 251 00:12:42,037 --> 00:12:45,823 GB: You know, I was saying climate change was the greatest threat human survival 252 00:12:45,847 --> 00:12:47,069 before this one. 253 00:12:47,093 --> 00:12:48,863 But this is rivaling climate change. 254 00:12:48,887 --> 00:12:50,196 But let me tell you, 255 00:12:50,220 --> 00:12:52,212 the big challenge we have now 256 00:12:52,236 --> 00:12:55,672 is that we have a pandemic, 257 00:12:55,696 --> 00:12:57,643 which we have still not contained, 258 00:12:57,667 --> 00:13:00,794 as we enter hurricane season, 259 00:13:00,818 --> 00:13:02,279 and we have climate change, 260 00:13:02,303 --> 00:13:06,929 which is exacerbating the ferocity of the hurricanes that we're having. 261 00:13:07,649 --> 00:13:11,975 So, you know, we're in for an interesting summer. 262 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:18,064 DB: And here's Chris, with, I think, a question from our audience. 263 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:20,639 Chris Anderson: Many questions, actually. 264 00:13:21,263 --> 00:13:24,554 People are very interested in what you're saying, Georges. 265 00:13:25,017 --> 00:13:27,280 Here we go, here's the first one from Jim Young: 266 00:13:27,304 --> 00:13:31,853 "How do we deal with people who don't believe this is serious?" 267 00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:39,989 GB: You know, you just have to continue to communicate the truth to folks. 268 00:13:40,911 --> 00:13:43,387 One of the things about this particular disease 269 00:13:43,411 --> 00:13:45,228 is that it does not spare anyone. 270 00:13:45,252 --> 00:13:48,153 It does not recognize political parties, 271 00:13:48,177 --> 00:13:50,950 it does not recognize geography, 272 00:13:50,974 --> 00:13:53,855 and we had lots of people, particularly in rural communities, 273 00:13:53,879 --> 00:13:56,966 that were not seeing it, because it had not yet come to them, 274 00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:58,831 and they didn't believe it was real. 275 00:13:58,855 --> 00:14:03,625 And now many of those communities are being ravaged by this disease. 276 00:14:03,649 --> 00:14:05,934 And so we just have to -- 277 00:14:06,910 --> 00:14:09,625 You know, it's not appropriate to say "I told you so." 278 00:14:09,649 --> 00:14:12,484 It is appropriate to say, "Look, now that you see it, 279 00:14:12,508 --> 00:14:16,918 come on board, and help us resolve these problems." 280 00:14:17,458 --> 00:14:20,371 But this is something that's going to be around for a while. 281 00:14:20,395 --> 00:14:22,093 And if it becomes endemic, 282 00:14:22,117 --> 00:14:28,144 meaning that it occurs all the time at some low level, 283 00:14:28,168 --> 00:14:30,446 everyone is going to have this experience. 284 00:14:31,601 --> 00:14:32,759 CA: Thank you. 285 00:14:32,783 --> 00:14:35,753 Here is one from Robert Perkowitz. 286 00:14:37,005 --> 00:14:41,315 "We seem to have been ignoring and underfunding public health, 287 00:14:41,339 --> 00:14:44,616 and we were unprepared for this virus." 288 00:14:44,958 --> 00:14:47,125 Look if the question is going to pop up there, 289 00:14:47,149 --> 00:14:49,149 I think it should, it's the magic. 290 00:14:49,173 --> 00:14:51,067 "What should our priorities be now 291 00:14:51,091 --> 00:14:54,224 to prepare for the next public health crisis?" 292 00:14:55,569 --> 00:14:59,553 GB: Well, we now need to make sure that we've put in the funding, 293 00:14:59,577 --> 00:15:02,760 resources, training, staffing on the table. 294 00:15:03,823 --> 00:15:06,332 And by the way, our next public health crisis 295 00:15:06,356 --> 00:15:10,490 is not 10 years from now, it's not 20 years from now, 296 00:15:10,514 --> 00:15:13,989 it's the potential co-occurrence 297 00:15:14,013 --> 00:15:17,125 of influenza, which we know is going to happen this fall, 298 00:15:17,149 --> 00:15:18,879 because it comes every year, 299 00:15:18,903 --> 00:15:23,219 with either continued COVID or a spike in COVID. 300 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,783 And we're going to have a disease process 301 00:15:26,807 --> 00:15:29,476 which presents very much the same, 302 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:33,834 and we're going to have to differentiate COVID from influenza. 303 00:15:34,890 --> 00:15:38,529 Because we have a vaccine for influenza, 304 00:15:38,553 --> 00:15:40,760 we don't yet have a vaccine for COVID. 305 00:15:40,784 --> 00:15:43,450 We hope to have one in about a year. 306 00:15:43,474 --> 00:15:45,386 But that still remains to be seen. 307 00:15:46,591 --> 00:15:48,567 DB: So get your flu shots. 308 00:15:48,591 --> 00:15:49,741 CA: Yeah. 309 00:15:50,058 --> 00:15:54,376 Indeed, in fact, David Collins asked exactly that question. 310 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,354 "What is the likelihood of a vaccine before the next wave?" 311 00:16:00,650 --> 00:16:04,690 GB: Well you know, the fastest vaccine that we've ever developed was measles, 312 00:16:04,714 --> 00:16:06,332 and that took four years. 313 00:16:06,722 --> 00:16:10,924 Now, a lot of things are different, right? 314 00:16:10,948 --> 00:16:13,348 We have started on a SARS-one vaccine. 315 00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:15,797 So it had gone to a lot of animal trials, 316 00:16:15,821 --> 00:16:18,958 it had gone to some very, very early human trials. 317 00:16:18,982 --> 00:16:21,022 As you know, we just got some announcement 318 00:16:21,046 --> 00:16:25,776 that at least it does seem to work in monkeys, in rhesus monkeys, 319 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,888 and there's some evidence that at least it may efficacious and safe 320 00:16:30,912 --> 00:16:32,783 in a very, very small number of people. 321 00:16:32,807 --> 00:16:34,914 When I say very, very small number of people, 322 00:16:34,938 --> 00:16:36,126 handful of people. 323 00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:39,783 So now it's got to go to phase two, and phase three trials. 324 00:16:39,807 --> 00:16:43,807 So, yeah, David held up two hands, 325 00:16:43,831 --> 00:16:46,008 so yeah, yeah, it's a small number of people. 326 00:16:46,561 --> 00:16:50,061 What that tells you is either that those folks were very lucky, 327 00:16:50,085 --> 00:16:51,354 or it works. 328 00:16:51,378 --> 00:16:55,283 And we won't know until we put this into the arms of thousands of people. 329 00:16:56,896 --> 00:17:00,223 CA: Here's an important question from a TED Fellow. 330 00:17:01,206 --> 00:17:04,237 "How do we actually train people about what public health means? 331 00:17:04,261 --> 00:17:05,897 Especially in the context of folks 332 00:17:05,921 --> 00:17:08,920 who don't believe they have a responsibility to 'the public?'" 333 00:17:09,714 --> 00:17:12,738 GB: Well, you know, I remind folks 334 00:17:12,762 --> 00:17:15,040 that when public health does its best job, 335 00:17:15,064 --> 00:17:16,214 nothing happens. 336 00:17:16,722 --> 00:17:19,603 And of course, when nothing happens, we don't get credit for. 337 00:17:19,627 --> 00:17:22,174 So the reason that everyone in this country 338 00:17:22,198 --> 00:17:26,055 does not have to get up every morning and boil their own water 339 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:27,674 is because of public health. 340 00:17:28,301 --> 00:17:32,070 The reason that, if you get into a car accident, 341 00:17:32,094 --> 00:17:34,094 you know, get into an automobile collision, 342 00:17:34,118 --> 00:17:37,507 and you wear your seat belt, and you have airbags, 343 00:17:37,531 --> 00:17:41,736 and you're not killed from that automobile collision, 344 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,442 is because of public health. 345 00:17:43,466 --> 00:17:45,483 The reason that the air is safe to breathe, 346 00:17:45,507 --> 00:17:47,839 the food is safe to eat, 347 00:17:47,863 --> 00:17:49,228 is because of public health. 348 00:17:49,252 --> 00:17:54,164 The reason that your kids are not in clothing that ignites 349 00:17:54,188 --> 00:17:57,165 is because we have fire-retardant clothing. 350 00:17:57,189 --> 00:17:58,922 And that is a requirement. 351 00:17:59,403 --> 00:18:02,323 The reason that you don't trip walking down the stairs 352 00:18:02,347 --> 00:18:06,823 is because we've actually looked at how to build the stair 353 00:18:06,847 --> 00:18:09,522 so that people don't trip when they go up or down it. 354 00:18:09,546 --> 00:18:11,672 That's actually a public health intervention. 355 00:18:11,696 --> 00:18:13,315 So the built environment, 356 00:18:13,339 --> 00:18:15,998 medicines, all those kinds of things, 357 00:18:16,022 --> 00:18:17,887 vaccines, those are all public health, 358 00:18:17,911 --> 00:18:21,822 and that's why public health is there, 359 00:18:21,846 --> 00:18:25,691 and you may not believe that it's that important, 360 00:18:25,715 --> 00:18:27,798 but we couldn't live without it. 361 00:18:29,711 --> 00:18:34,603 CA: Maybe one day we can all envision a health care system in America 362 00:18:34,627 --> 00:18:37,078 that actually has some incentives 363 00:18:37,102 --> 00:18:38,705 that point towards public health. 364 00:18:38,729 --> 00:18:40,144 That would be very nice. 365 00:18:40,816 --> 00:18:44,403 David, I've got to just keep going with some of these questions, if it's OK, 366 00:18:44,427 --> 00:18:45,760 because they're pouring in. 367 00:18:45,784 --> 00:18:48,093 There's one here from Jacqueline Ashby. 368 00:18:48,522 --> 00:18:50,807 Important question for every parent. 369 00:18:50,831 --> 00:18:54,141 "What are your recommendations about sending children back to school?" 370 00:18:54,165 --> 00:18:57,307 GB: Yeah, I'm struggling with this one, I've got three grand kids. 371 00:18:57,751 --> 00:19:03,012 And the good news is that my grand kids are more technically proficient than I am, 372 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:06,463 and right now are getting their lessons remotely. 373 00:19:07,585 --> 00:19:09,323 I think it's going to be a challenge 374 00:19:09,347 --> 00:19:11,514 as we think about sending kids back to school. 375 00:19:11,538 --> 00:19:17,576 We've got to really need to know how infectious kids are, 376 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,895 and how well they do when they get infected. 377 00:19:20,919 --> 00:19:23,076 Now, right now, it seems, 378 00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:27,760 except for a very small number of children who get a very rare disease, 379 00:19:27,784 --> 00:19:30,188 that they tolerate this disease very well. 380 00:19:30,212 --> 00:19:33,402 But the central question is, 381 00:19:33,426 --> 00:19:38,109 how many of these germs will these kids bring back to you 382 00:19:38,133 --> 00:19:40,096 and to grandma and grandpa. 383 00:19:40,676 --> 00:19:42,260 So that's going to be important. 384 00:19:42,284 --> 00:19:44,799 And you know, trying to tell an eight-year-old 385 00:19:44,823 --> 00:19:47,282 not to interact with their friends, 386 00:19:47,306 --> 00:19:48,506 is a real challenge. 387 00:19:48,530 --> 00:19:52,397 By the way, trying to tell a 17-year-old not to interact with their friends 388 00:19:52,421 --> 00:19:54,286 is going to be a real challenge. 389 00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:57,310 So, we've got to properly educate these kids, 390 00:19:57,334 --> 00:20:00,440 we've got to figure out how we stagger their schedules. 391 00:20:00,464 --> 00:20:03,405 Uri's idea for the workforce 392 00:20:03,429 --> 00:20:06,940 might be an interesting concept for schools, 393 00:20:06,964 --> 00:20:10,858 because the idea is to try to decompress the number of kids in the classroom. 394 00:20:10,882 --> 00:20:14,490 By the way, if you get smaller class size, you get better education, anyway. 395 00:20:15,473 --> 00:20:17,751 So, we've got to have enough teachers, though. 396 00:20:17,775 --> 00:20:19,751 So that may be the [limiting step?] 397 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,855 CA: Alright, last question here for now from Steve Petranek. 398 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:26,887 Masks. Advice on mask -- 399 00:20:26,911 --> 00:20:28,490 I switched that off, here we go. 400 00:20:28,514 --> 00:20:30,984 Advice on masks seems to have shifted. 401 00:20:31,008 --> 00:20:33,538 "Would most Americans who live and work in cities 402 00:20:33,562 --> 00:20:35,291 be better off wearing masks 403 00:20:35,315 --> 00:20:37,910 to also help reduce the air pollution particles 404 00:20:37,934 --> 00:20:39,601 they encounter every day?" 405 00:20:40,303 --> 00:20:42,422 GB: It may help some, absolutely. 406 00:20:43,311 --> 00:20:46,026 But let me tell you what I would prefer we stopped doing: 407 00:20:46,050 --> 00:20:47,450 burning fossil fuels. 408 00:20:47,937 --> 00:20:50,220 And doing all those terrible things 409 00:20:50,244 --> 00:20:53,259 that we are doing to destroy our climate. 410 00:20:54,140 --> 00:20:56,149 You know, everyone's talking about the fact 411 00:20:56,173 --> 00:20:59,220 that we've had this amazing reduction 412 00:20:59,244 --> 00:21:03,504 in CO2 because we're not driving cars. 413 00:21:04,561 --> 00:21:05,744 I've got to tell you, 414 00:21:05,768 --> 00:21:09,707 that is the best evidence that climate change is man-made. 415 00:21:10,048 --> 00:21:12,428 All those climate change skeptics 416 00:21:12,452 --> 00:21:14,921 who don't think climate change is man-made, 417 00:21:14,945 --> 00:21:18,887 we have just had a worldwide demonstration 418 00:21:18,911 --> 00:21:22,220 on what people do to create climate change. 419 00:21:22,244 --> 00:21:25,125 And so what we need to do is stop 420 00:21:25,149 --> 00:21:27,015 and move to a green economy. 421 00:21:28,514 --> 00:21:29,665 DB: Here, here. 422 00:21:29,689 --> 00:21:31,625 CA Alright, thank you so much for those, 423 00:21:31,649 --> 00:21:34,006 I'll get back at the end with maybe a couple more. 424 00:21:34,030 --> 00:21:35,296 Thank you for this. 425 00:21:35,919 --> 00:21:38,776 DB: So we're waving the flag for masks. 426 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,465 But also, one of the things 427 00:21:42,489 --> 00:21:45,501 that has become clear from this is that COVID-19 428 00:21:45,525 --> 00:21:50,012 is not the great leveler that maybe some had hoped it was. 429 00:21:50,036 --> 00:21:54,104 Some communities are experiencing much worse, 430 00:21:54,128 --> 00:21:56,631 significantly worse outcomes than others. 431 00:21:56,655 --> 00:21:57,901 Why is that? 432 00:21:59,663 --> 00:22:02,340 GB: We're talking principally about the African American 433 00:22:02,364 --> 00:22:03,871 and Latino communities 434 00:22:03,895 --> 00:22:09,546 that seem to be disproportionately impacted if they get the disease. 435 00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:12,315 And it's because of exposure, primarily. 436 00:22:12,816 --> 00:22:15,673 Those populations have more public-facing jobs. 437 00:22:15,697 --> 00:22:18,800 So, you know, bus drivers, 438 00:22:18,824 --> 00:22:19,989 grocery clerks, 439 00:22:20,013 --> 00:22:23,371 working in long-term care facilities, 440 00:22:23,395 --> 00:22:24,556 nursing homes, 441 00:22:24,580 --> 00:22:27,339 and meatpacking facilities, chicken farms. 442 00:22:27,363 --> 00:22:31,199 So that's why they're much more going to be exposed to the disease. 443 00:22:31,223 --> 00:22:32,373 Susceptibility. 444 00:22:33,565 --> 00:22:34,771 Lots of chronic disease. 445 00:22:34,795 --> 00:22:37,287 So we know that particularly African Americans 446 00:22:37,311 --> 00:22:42,992 have disproportionate amounts of diabetes, heart disease, 447 00:22:43,016 --> 00:22:44,286 lung disease, 448 00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:47,595 and because of those chronic diseases, 449 00:22:47,619 --> 00:22:51,743 we found early on that that virus 450 00:22:51,767 --> 00:22:55,529 is more detrimental to those populations that have those diseases. 451 00:22:55,553 --> 00:22:57,958 And so that's the big issue here. 452 00:22:57,982 --> 00:23:01,140 That is what's causing those differentiations 453 00:23:01,164 --> 00:23:03,493 and it's really a challenge, 454 00:23:03,517 --> 00:23:06,076 because in many ways, 455 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:07,847 those are many of the people 456 00:23:07,871 --> 00:23:10,877 that we have decided are essential employees, 457 00:23:10,901 --> 00:23:12,441 and have to go to work. 458 00:23:12,987 --> 00:23:14,148 DB: That's right. 459 00:23:14,172 --> 00:23:16,965 So what is, in your view, the public health intervention 460 00:23:16,989 --> 00:23:20,772 to protect these essential workers, 461 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:22,930 if you have ideas on that front? 462 00:23:23,617 --> 00:23:24,799 GB: I absolutely do. 463 00:23:24,823 --> 00:23:29,442 We started this by a testing strategy based on symptoms. 464 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:33,116 And now that we have enough tests, 465 00:23:33,140 --> 00:23:36,918 we need to make sure that not only people get those tests for clinical reasons, 466 00:23:36,942 --> 00:23:38,573 and people who have symptoms, 467 00:23:38,597 --> 00:23:42,565 but also begin to prioritize people who are public-facing, 468 00:23:42,589 --> 00:23:43,843 who are essential workers. 469 00:23:43,867 --> 00:23:47,779 So, certainly people working in nursing homes, hospitals, etc, 470 00:23:47,803 --> 00:23:50,822 but bus drivers, security guards, 471 00:23:50,846 --> 00:23:52,472 grocery store clerks. 472 00:23:52,496 --> 00:23:53,663 They need to be tested, 473 00:23:53,687 --> 00:23:56,330 and they need to have testing with the [unclear] 474 00:23:56,354 --> 00:23:58,488 that will secure them, their families, 475 00:23:58,512 --> 00:24:00,672 and give everyone the trust 476 00:24:00,696 --> 00:24:02,482 that they're not going to be infected 477 00:24:02,506 --> 00:24:04,363 and we're not going to infect them. 478 00:24:04,696 --> 00:24:06,712 People who work in meatpacking plants, 479 00:24:06,736 --> 00:24:07,887 as an example. 480 00:24:07,911 --> 00:24:09,410 And we've seen the real tragedy 481 00:24:09,434 --> 00:24:11,617 of what’s going on in the meatpacking plants, 482 00:24:11,641 --> 00:24:15,347 because they are working in an environment where they're shoulder to shoulder. 483 00:24:15,371 --> 00:24:17,379 There are some other things they need to do 484 00:24:17,403 --> 00:24:21,339 in terms of figuring out how to give them physical distancing on the assembly line, 485 00:24:21,363 --> 00:24:22,760 that's going to be important. 486 00:24:22,784 --> 00:24:24,978 But again, Uri's idea is not a bad idea 487 00:24:25,002 --> 00:24:26,564 for this nation to consider, 488 00:24:26,588 --> 00:24:28,921 for many of those industries to think about. 489 00:24:29,739 --> 00:24:33,357 DB: Yeah, we have to make sure that these truly are folks 490 00:24:33,381 --> 00:24:38,083 who are treated as essential workers, not sacrificial workers, it seems to me. 491 00:24:38,402 --> 00:24:41,869 And obviously, this is not just confined to the US. 492 00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:44,067 GB: Oh, absolutely. 493 00:24:44,091 --> 00:24:47,143 We're seeing these disparities not just in the United States, 494 00:24:47,167 --> 00:24:48,841 but in other countries, as well. 495 00:24:49,468 --> 00:24:53,095 And they have a lot to do with race and class 496 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,194 and the types of jobs that you do, 497 00:24:55,218 --> 00:24:57,015 the occupations that you do. 498 00:24:57,987 --> 00:24:59,986 And quite frankly, 499 00:25:00,010 --> 00:25:04,757 we should have though about this when we saw the first data 500 00:25:04,781 --> 00:25:07,137 that showed that in China 501 00:25:07,161 --> 00:25:10,833 that people with chronic diseases were much more at risk 502 00:25:10,857 --> 00:25:12,595 and had worse health outcomes. 503 00:25:12,619 --> 00:25:15,279 We would have sped up our actions right away, 504 00:25:15,303 --> 00:25:18,211 because, look, that's happened with every new disease 505 00:25:18,235 --> 00:25:19,902 that's come into country. 506 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:27,117 DB: So it seems like a lot of this goes back to that potential -- 507 00:25:27,141 --> 00:25:28,371 it's not an oxymoron, 508 00:25:28,395 --> 00:25:30,624 public health is everybody's job, 509 00:25:30,648 --> 00:25:32,517 and we need to adopt that. 510 00:25:32,541 --> 00:25:35,294 What does, in your view, 511 00:25:35,318 --> 00:25:38,120 a robust public health infrastructure look like? 512 00:25:38,144 --> 00:25:39,877 What would that look like? 513 00:25:41,358 --> 00:25:42,585 GB: Well, you know, 514 00:25:42,609 --> 00:25:44,958 anytime a new health threat enters our community, 515 00:25:44,982 --> 00:25:47,418 we ought to be able to rapidly identify it, 516 00:25:47,442 --> 00:25:48,950 contain it, 517 00:25:48,974 --> 00:25:53,632 and if we can mitigate it, for sure, and eliminate it if possible, 518 00:25:53,656 --> 00:25:55,688 and then put in all the protective measures 519 00:25:55,712 --> 00:25:56,879 that we've had before. 520 00:25:56,903 --> 00:26:00,875 So that means having a well-staffed, 521 00:26:00,899 --> 00:26:04,716 well-trained governmental public health entity, 522 00:26:04,740 --> 00:26:08,466 just like we have for police, fire, EMS. 523 00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:11,974 It means that they've got to be well-paid, 524 00:26:11,998 --> 00:26:14,553 it means that they've got to be well-resourced. 525 00:26:15,093 --> 00:26:17,767 You know, we still have some of our contact tracers 526 00:26:17,791 --> 00:26:20,942 out there using pen and pads. 527 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,441 And sending things to Excel Spreadsheets. 528 00:26:24,831 --> 00:26:27,776 No, we need the same kind of robust technology 529 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,775 that the folks at, you know, 530 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:35,466 any of the online retailers [unclear], whether it's Amazon, etc. 531 00:26:35,862 --> 00:26:39,758 We're still looking at data that's two years in the rear, 532 00:26:39,782 --> 00:26:42,014 to make data-driven decisions. 533 00:26:42,038 --> 00:26:44,447 We need to be able to make immediate decisions. 534 00:26:44,471 --> 00:26:45,867 By the way, Taiwan, 535 00:26:45,891 --> 00:26:47,676 you mentioned them earlier, 536 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:49,439 I remember being in Taiwan 537 00:26:49,463 --> 00:26:53,502 watching data come from infectious diseases, real time, 538 00:26:53,526 --> 00:26:56,010 from their electronic medical record system. 539 00:26:56,034 --> 00:26:59,567 So, you know, we can do this, the technology exists. 540 00:27:00,105 --> 00:27:01,255 DB: Imagine that. 541 00:27:01,835 --> 00:27:04,069 Wow, real time health information, 542 00:27:04,093 --> 00:27:06,886 what a difference that would make. 543 00:27:07,911 --> 00:27:11,307 Do you think that technology can help us here, 544 00:27:11,331 --> 00:27:14,942 whether that's the Google-Apple collaboration or whatever else? 545 00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:17,649 GB: Technology can help us, 546 00:27:17,673 --> 00:27:19,873 but it's not going to replace us. 547 00:27:20,204 --> 00:27:22,887 We're nowhere near where we can sit back 548 00:27:22,911 --> 00:27:27,476 and have our electronic avatar do our work for us. 549 00:27:28,437 --> 00:27:30,451 But the technology can [unclear] our work. 550 00:27:30,475 --> 00:27:33,198 It can give us situational awareness. 551 00:27:33,222 --> 00:27:35,181 It can give us real time information. 552 00:27:35,792 --> 00:27:39,278 It allows us to send information from point A to point B 553 00:27:39,302 --> 00:27:41,425 for data analysis. 554 00:27:41,449 --> 00:27:43,600 It allows us to do second thinking, 555 00:27:43,624 --> 00:27:45,498 so we're doing all this modeling, 556 00:27:45,522 --> 00:27:50,006 it allows others to check our numbers right away. 557 00:27:50,030 --> 00:27:52,603 So it could speed up research. 558 00:27:52,995 --> 00:27:56,431 But we have to invest in it, 559 00:27:56,455 --> 00:27:58,046 and we have to continue it, 560 00:27:58,070 --> 00:28:02,828 because obsolescence is always the evil part of technology. 561 00:28:04,264 --> 00:28:07,518 DB: And it looks like Chris is back with more questions. 562 00:28:07,542 --> 00:28:09,844 CA: Yeah, I guess we're getting close to the end, 563 00:28:09,868 --> 00:28:11,891 but the questions keep coming in. 564 00:28:11,915 --> 00:28:14,797 There's one here from Neelay Bhatt. 565 00:28:15,475 --> 00:28:20,102 "What role do you see parks, trails and open space play 566 00:28:20,126 --> 00:28:22,859 in assisting larger public health goals?" 567 00:28:24,054 --> 00:28:29,144 GB: You know, green space is absolutely essential, 568 00:28:29,168 --> 00:28:32,616 and ability to get out and walk and exercise, 569 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,418 having sidewalks, so that you can have communities that are walkable, 570 00:28:36,442 --> 00:28:40,014 bikeable and green, for utilization of all ages, 571 00:28:40,038 --> 00:28:43,196 it's good for our mental health, it's good for our physical health. 572 00:28:44,117 --> 00:28:46,252 And I always tell folks, you know, 573 00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:49,839 it's a great place to go when someone's gotten on your last nerve. 574 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:52,910 CA: Indeed. 575 00:28:53,356 --> 00:28:55,903 Here we have one anonymous question. 576 00:28:55,927 --> 00:28:58,537 Where possible don't go anonymous, 577 00:28:58,561 --> 00:29:01,531 because we're all friends here when all said and done. 578 00:29:01,555 --> 00:29:03,274 Probably someone ... Anyway. 579 00:29:04,742 --> 00:29:06,575 Let's see, but it's a good question. 580 00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:10,560 "There are many who are highly suspicious of what the real experts are saying. 581 00:29:10,584 --> 00:29:13,783 What have you found to be effective in helping the highly suspicious 582 00:29:13,807 --> 00:29:15,826 be less suspicious and more trusting?" 583 00:29:16,508 --> 00:29:17,774 GB: Tell the truth. 584 00:29:19,452 --> 00:29:23,682 If you make a mistake, acknowledge it and correct it right away. 585 00:29:24,658 --> 00:29:25,813 Be consistent. 586 00:29:27,795 --> 00:29:32,112 And don't say stupid stuff. 587 00:29:33,795 --> 00:29:36,918 And far too often that happens. 588 00:29:36,942 --> 00:29:38,998 And you know, one of the interesting things, 589 00:29:39,022 --> 00:29:41,873 we've already been through this with the mask discussion. 590 00:29:42,252 --> 00:29:46,459 You know, traditional wisdom was that we only had people wear the mask 591 00:29:46,483 --> 00:29:48,196 if they were infectious, 592 00:29:48,220 --> 00:29:50,085 or you're in a health care environment 593 00:29:50,109 --> 00:29:52,919 where there was a high risk of getting the disease. 594 00:29:52,943 --> 00:29:54,530 And then we said, 595 00:29:54,554 --> 00:29:57,498 no, it's OK for everybody to wear a mask. 596 00:29:57,522 --> 00:30:00,276 And that's because we learned eventually, 597 00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:03,402 and became much more believable, 598 00:30:03,426 --> 00:30:07,291 in the science that we had asymptomatic spreading. 599 00:30:07,712 --> 00:30:10,331 But we did not communicate it very well. 600 00:30:10,355 --> 00:30:12,534 We said, oh, no, no, we're changing our minds, 601 00:30:12,558 --> 00:30:13,860 everybody can wear a mask, 602 00:30:13,884 --> 00:30:15,844 after telling people not to wear a mask. 603 00:30:15,868 --> 00:30:19,138 And then we didn't spend enough time explaining to people why. 604 00:30:19,162 --> 00:30:20,312 So we lost trust. 605 00:30:20,986 --> 00:30:23,155 So we need to do a better job of that. 606 00:30:23,179 --> 00:30:26,623 And then our leaders, 607 00:30:26,647 --> 00:30:30,232 need to be very careful what they say when you have a bull horn. 608 00:30:31,337 --> 00:30:33,104 And by the way, I've made mistakes, 609 00:30:33,128 --> 00:30:36,794 I've said things on TV that were just wrong, 610 00:30:36,818 --> 00:30:38,429 because I was wrong. 611 00:30:38,786 --> 00:30:41,263 And I've tried very hard to try to correct those 612 00:30:41,287 --> 00:30:42,667 as quickly as I can. 613 00:30:42,691 --> 00:30:43,903 All of us do that, 614 00:30:43,927 --> 00:30:46,640 but you have to be strong enough 615 00:30:46,664 --> 00:30:50,077 and have a strong enough personality to say when you're wrong 616 00:30:50,101 --> 00:30:51,434 and then correct it. 617 00:30:51,934 --> 00:30:55,094 Because at the end of the day, once you've lost trust, 618 00:30:55,118 --> 00:30:56,651 you've lost everything. 619 00:30:59,029 --> 00:31:00,350 CA: Well if I might say so, 620 00:31:00,374 --> 00:31:03,085 just the way in which you're communicating right now, 621 00:31:03,109 --> 00:31:06,069 I mean, to me, that is a means of communication 622 00:31:06,093 --> 00:31:07,853 that engenders trust. 623 00:31:08,886 --> 00:31:11,276 I don't know what magic sauce you have going there, 624 00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:14,545 but it's very, very compelling listening to you. 625 00:31:14,569 --> 00:31:16,640 Thank you so much for this. 626 00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:19,425 David, do you have any other last cues? 627 00:31:19,449 --> 00:31:21,084 GB: I've made lots of mistakes. 628 00:31:21,553 --> 00:31:24,704 DB: Yeah, no, but it really has been a real pleasure 629 00:31:24,728 --> 00:31:27,085 to have you join us and thank you for that. 630 00:31:27,109 --> 00:31:29,482 Just one final question if I may. 631 00:31:29,506 --> 00:31:32,508 You've been doing this for a while, 632 00:31:32,532 --> 00:31:36,466 what gives you hope looking forward? 633 00:31:38,053 --> 00:31:39,974 GB: You know, let me tell you something. 634 00:31:39,998 --> 00:31:41,545 The one thing that gives me hope 635 00:31:41,569 --> 00:31:45,204 is when I see people taking care of their friends and family members. 636 00:31:45,228 --> 00:31:47,881 I mean, drive-by birthday parties. 637 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,614 I saw that on the news today. 638 00:31:51,085 --> 00:31:52,871 People who are calling their friends. 639 00:31:52,895 --> 00:31:55,578 I've heard from people that I haven't talked to in years, 640 00:31:55,602 --> 00:31:57,109 who are just calling me to say, 641 00:31:57,133 --> 00:31:59,696 "I haven't talked to you for a long time. Are you OK?" 642 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,387 So do more of that. 643 00:32:01,411 --> 00:32:03,672 And the trust we've had in one another, 644 00:32:03,696 --> 00:32:06,546 and the love we've shown, it's just been absolutely amazing, 645 00:32:06,570 --> 00:32:08,085 so that gives me hope. 646 00:32:08,109 --> 00:32:10,370 DB: Humanity for the win in the end. 647 00:32:11,347 --> 00:32:12,497 GB: Yeah. 648 00:32:12,966 --> 00:32:15,664 DB: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Benjamin, 649 00:32:15,688 --> 00:32:18,275 for joining us and for sharing your wisdom. 650 00:32:19,888 --> 00:32:21,079 GB: Glad to be here. 651 00:32:21,103 --> 00:32:22,587 CA: Yes, thank you. 652 00:32:22,611 --> 00:32:24,079 GB: You guys be safe. 653 00:32:24,103 --> 00:32:25,570 Your families be safe. 654 00:32:26,317 --> 00:32:27,851 DB: Thank you, you too.