WEBVTT 00:00:08.440 --> 00:00:10.480 -Take a half a step this way. 00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:12.501 That's it. 00:00:13.200 --> 00:00:14.940 Okay, are we kind of– 00:00:15.590 --> 00:00:18.362 Oh, I know what I'd better do is just check my sound on this. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:22.060 It's– no, it's kind of nice. The black is good. 00:00:22.060 --> 00:00:23.882 -Better? -Yeah. Yeah. 00:00:27.880 --> 00:00:31.360 -There was one singer I knew Who used to– always first, she'd 00:00:31.360 --> 00:00:34.411 start the day by checking if her voice was there, and she'd go... 00:00:34.411 --> 00:00:36.000 [hums an arpeggio] -Okay. 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:38.358 -The high--those kind of crazy sounds. 00:00:38.358 --> 00:00:39.160 -Okay. 00:00:39.160 --> 00:00:41.880 -The piece that's being made here is designed to be shown on 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:45.120 the fire screen at La Fenice Opera House in Venice. 00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:47.240 And the principle is that they get– have a projection on the 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:49.800 fire screen while the audience comes in and the orchestra is 00:00:49.800 --> 00:00:51.393 tuning up. 00:00:51.393 --> 00:01:02.080 [singing arpeggios] 00:01:02.080 --> 00:01:04.240 [singing over cell phone] 00:01:04.240 --> 00:01:04.840 Hello. 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:07.160 Hello, this is the– 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:12.706 this is the pianist calling, all the way from William's house. 00:01:12.706 --> 00:01:14.920 [chuckles] So, Kim, 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:17.400 What I'll do is, I'll play you some chords, 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:19.960 and then I'm gonna kind of play along with you a little bit, 00:01:19.960 --> 00:01:20.800 Okay? 00:01:20.800 --> 00:01:21.800 -Okay. 00:01:21.800 --> 00:01:24.960 -Hold on. I'm going to speak to you now. 00:01:24.960 --> 00:01:28.588 Hold on. Okay, let's put that there. 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.960 Just talk a bit. Sing– sing a bit. 00:01:33.960 --> 00:01:39.663 [singing in foreign language] 00:01:39.663 --> 00:01:40.633 -Good. Hang on. 00:01:40.633 --> 00:01:42.840 I'm just trying to line this up. That's all right. 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.360 Okay, all right, here we go. All right. 00:01:45.360 --> 00:01:47.594 [plays arpeggios on piano] 00:01:47.594 --> 00:01:50.400 Can you hear the– -Yes. 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:52.039 -Okay. When you're ready. 00:01:52.039 --> 00:01:53.409 -Okay. 00:01:53.409 --> 00:02:23.840 [singing opera music] 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:25.960 -Kimmy? Kimmy? Stop. 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:26.760 -Okay. 00:02:26.760 --> 00:02:28.840 -Okay, let's just do that phrase... 00:02:31.655 --> 00:02:34.040 [plays tune on piano] 00:02:34.040 --> 00:02:35.600 -Let me just say something to you and Philip. 00:02:35.600 --> 00:02:36.360 -Okay. 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:40.760 -Okay, to both of you. Phil? 00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:44.400 Sorry, William here. One of the things that would be 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:50.920 good is to not so much repeat a whole phrase but to jump– 00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:53.800 to break in the middle of a phrase and repeat. 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.560 So like where you've got, "Babbo, pieta," 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:58.400 But to... Babbo pie– 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.040 Babbo pie– 00:03:00.040 --> 00:03:01.800 Try this– when you complete it 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:06.849 at the "Ta," it feels too elegant as a completed gesture. 00:03:09.303 --> 00:03:21.629 [singing in foreign language] 00:03:22.811 --> 00:03:23.311 Yes. Okay. 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.920 -Make a stripe with the bias cut? 00:03:28.920 --> 00:03:29.680 Or you prefer what? 00:03:32.440 --> 00:03:33.790 - I don't know. 00:03:33.790 --> 00:03:40.400 [both speaking quietly] 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:41.840 I work with a wonderful opera 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:45.600 singer who lives in Cape Town. so I called her, and I said, 00:03:45.600 --> 00:03:49.160 "Kimmy, would you sing this arietta on the phone, and I'll 00:03:49.160 --> 00:03:51.400 sort of sit at the piano and give you the key. 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:56.040 It has a sort of uncanny sound of both old and modern and 00:03:56.040 --> 00:03:57.139 contemporary. 00:03:58.440 --> 00:03:59.480 -Initially, he'd– I think he'd 00:03:59.480 --> 00:04:02.560 done the recording on the cell phone as a guide track. 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:03.960 And then when we heard the recording on the cell phone, we 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:08.240 said let's keep it and work with that strange, caruso-esque, 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.420 old quality of the voice, which is why today there are– 00:04:12.420 --> 00:04:15.760 we're working with images of Kimmy on the cell phone. 00:04:15.760 --> 00:04:16.680 -It was just one of those 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.160 moments which happened when I work with William, where we 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:22.640 both went off and played, and the playing worked. 00:04:22.640 --> 00:04:25.880 That's one of the things about working with William that 00:04:25.880 --> 00:04:30.419 I enjoy so much is the ability to play and experiment. 00:04:30.564 --> 00:04:33.654 [singing high notes] [voice breaks slightly] 00:04:33.654 --> 00:04:34.588 [clears throat] 00:04:35.793 --> 00:04:42.459 [crackly recording of Kimmy singing] 00:04:42.459 --> 00:04:43.561 I suppose the first 00:04:43.561 --> 00:04:47.120 promptings to work as an artist are still there. 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:49.520 The questions haven't changed. 00:04:49.520 --> 00:04:53.880 How does one find a way of not necessarily illustrating 00:04:53.880 --> 00:04:57.000 the society that one lives in but allowing what happens there 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:59.240 to be part of the work, part of the vocabulary, 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:03.040 part of the raw material that is dealt with. 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.451 South Africa is very much part of the work. 00:05:07.344 --> 00:05:11.032 [Kimmy's singing continues] [singing fades out] 00:05:11.032 --> 00:05:21.913 [somber instrumental music] 00:05:21.913 --> 00:05:24.240 The important thing about the first animated films I made is, 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:28.840 they were done as a response to doing something which I thought 00:05:28.840 --> 00:05:31.134 I understood, which was making charcoal drawings. 00:05:31.640 --> 00:05:34.440 So they were done on the basis of trying to get away from 00:05:34.440 --> 00:05:36.840 a program of doing drawings, having exhibitions, in which 00:05:36.840 --> 00:05:40.360 I could see my life heading out ahead of me, 13 more solo 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:42.400 exhibitions of charcoal drawings. 00:05:42.400 --> 00:05:44.600 So I decided I had to do something that couldn't possibly 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.400 fit into that context, that wasn't going to be in a gallery, 00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:50.750 that was done for my own interest and pleasure, 00:05:51.135 --> 00:05:54.226 and Soho and Felix came out of that. 00:05:57.960 --> 00:05:59.080 There was no expectation they 00:05:59.080 --> 00:06:02.040 would be part of the real work I was doing, that they would 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.280 have to be understood or justify themselves in a broader world 00:06:05.280 --> 00:06:08.640 at all or that they had to even have a logic to them. 00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:09.560 It doesn't matter if there isn't 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:11.800 a story because it's not trying to sell it to a producer; 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.000 it's not starting with distribution. 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.640 It's starting with its own crazy logic, so it doesn't matter 00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:18.240 who these two characters are or what their names are. 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:19.560 They don't have to represent 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:21.720 anyone but themselves in the film. 00:06:22.635 --> 00:06:24.400 It took me a long time to kind of understand that, and 00:06:24.400 --> 00:06:26.600 that was the substantive work I was doing. 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:28.120 And so that experience gave me 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.640 a lot of confidence in the validity of working without 00:06:31.640 --> 00:06:35.760 a program, without the essay being written in advance. 00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:37.760 I made a decision I would never 00:06:37.760 --> 00:06:40.800 ever write a script; I would never write a storyboard; 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:42.711 I would never ever write a proposal. 00:06:43.819 --> 00:06:45.160 [water burbling] 00:06:45.259 --> 00:06:48.760 The history of Jews in South Africa is quite complex in the 00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:52.000 sense that there were, as there are in all parts of the world, 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.120 an absolute overrepresentative number of Jewish people who were 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:57.720 iInvolved in liberation struggles, in fights against 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.680 apartheid, who had very honorable, ethical, 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:03.400 and moral lives. 00:07:03.400 --> 00:07:04.360 But there were also a large 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:07.000 number of Jewish people who did very well under the nationalist 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.868 government, who made a lot of money through it. 00:07:11.622 --> 00:07:13.471 [faint, repetitive tapping] 00:07:13.471 --> 00:07:16.648 The depiction of Soho and Felix, who are both Jewish, 00:07:16.648 --> 00:07:19.640 so in the– Soho's a Jewish businessman. 00:07:20.796 --> 00:07:22.000 It has to do with that double edge. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:23.800 It would have been very easy to have done– say, "Okay, I'm gonna 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:27.120 draw a terrible Afrikaner and make him entirely separate and 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:28.524 distant from myself." 00:07:29.608 --> 00:07:32.360 Whereas, the Soho is a kind of 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:34.197 understanding that that's part of who I am. 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:37.080 The pinstripe– someone who always wears a pinstripe suit 00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:38.828 is from a photograph of my grandfather. 00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:41.040 The two names came out 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:43.120 of a dream, and it came out of the period when I said, "I'm 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:44.160 making this film for myself. 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:45.279 I don't have to question 00:07:45.640 --> 00:07:47.334 who these names are or what they mean." 00:07:52.156 --> 00:07:53.366 [cat meows] 00:07:55.558 --> 00:07:57.880 I then understood later on that they're both a kind of 00:07:57.880 --> 00:08:01.080 self-portrait, a self-portrait in the third person, 00:08:01.080 --> 00:08:02.622 and a place self-portrait. 00:08:03.080 --> 00:08:04.720 So the films have had to 00:08:05.320 --> 00:08:08.440 Either defend themselves or ignore, but they've certainly 00:08:08.440 --> 00:08:10.341 been accused of anti-semitism. 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:12.360 In many ways, the work seems 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:16.000 unbearably semitic to me, in the sense it deals endlessly 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:19.840 with memory, with loss, all the kind of cliches that you think, 00:08:19.840 --> 00:08:22.120 "Oh, this is what a Jewish artist is going to be talking about," 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:24.120 and it's kind of distressing for me that they get 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:27.337 stuck in that terrain, but that is where they are. 00:08:33.680 --> 00:08:36.160 The films opened an enormous doors because they gave me 00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:40.200 a sense that it was possible to work without a program 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.920 in advance and that it was possible to make a film without 00:08:42.920 --> 00:08:44.676 first having written a script... 00:08:44.676 --> 00:08:49.240 [woman singing] That if you work 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:52.240 conscientiously and hard at it and there is something inside 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.160 you that is of interest, that is what will come out. 00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:57.435 You yourself will be the film. The film will always be you. 00:08:58.760 --> 00:09:00.640 I think a lot of the work that I've done since then, 00:09:00.640 --> 00:09:03.120 even if it's not using that technique, has certainly 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.240 used that strategy, the understanding that images 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:08.640 and movement as well as static images are a key thing 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:10.680 for me to be working on. 00:09:10.680 --> 00:09:12.000 The provisionality of drawings, 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.080 the fact that they're going to be succeeded by the next stage 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:18.040 of the drawing, was very good for someone who's bad at knowing 00:09:18.040 --> 00:09:20.560 when to commit something to being finished, to say, 00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:21.960 "When is this drawing finished?" 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:22.920 Here, the drawing would go on 00:09:22.920 --> 00:09:25.280 till the sequence was finished in the film, and that would be 00:09:25.280 --> 00:09:26.415 the end point of the drawing... 00:09:26.415 --> 00:09:28.745 [faint rumbling] 00:09:28.745 --> 00:09:31.756 Understanding of the world as process rather than as fact. 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.480 And temperamentally, all of those things made sense to me, 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:37.760 And intellectually they made sense to me. 00:09:37.760 --> 00:09:39.400 And somehow this technique and 00:09:39.400 --> 00:09:44.186 this medium emphasized or allowed that to come forward. 00:09:45.655 --> 00:09:46.815 [cat meows] 00:10:06.421 --> 00:10:08.760 In the anamorphic film 00:10:08.760 --> 00:10:10.800 What Will Come Has Already which is about the 00:10:10.800 --> 00:10:13.560 Italian-Ethiopian war of the 1930s, 00:10:13.560 --> 00:10:16.760 works on the principle that what is distorted in the projection 00:10:16.760 --> 00:10:20.566 gets corrected in the viewers' seeing of it in a mirror. 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:22.560 So the distortion is the 00:10:22.560 --> 00:10:25.439 correction, and the original is the distorted. 00:10:27.920 --> 00:10:29.840 One of the things of doing the film, or doing the drawings, 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.480 was learning the grammar of the transformations that happen when 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.400 you go from a flat surface to the curved mirror. 00:10:35.400 --> 00:10:36.840 So that, for example, to draw 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:41.640 a straight line is relatively complicated because every 00:10:41.640 --> 00:10:44.760 straight line is in fact a curve, whereas every straight 00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:47.960 line that you draw becomes a parabola. 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:49.920 So loops, telephone wires are very easy. 00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:51.000 Simply draw a series of straight 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.720 lines on the drawing, and the lines will loop themselves 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.243 around the surface of the cylinder. 00:10:57.640 --> 00:11:00.440 Whereas if you want a straight line, you've got to calculate 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:02.824 a not obvious curve on the sheet of paper. 00:11:02.824 --> 00:11:06.234 [festive folk music] 00:11:06.234 --> 00:11:09.794 I'm interested in machines that tell you what it is to look, 00:11:10.280 --> 00:11:13.600 that make you aware of the process of seeing and make you 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.400 aware of what do you do when you construct the world by looking 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:20.440 at it, but more, as looking and seeing being a metaphor, or 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.600 a broad-based metaphor, for how we go through the world, 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:25.421 how we understand the world, for thinking or understanding, 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:28.360 When you look through a stereoscopic viewer, 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:32.400 you're aware that you have two completely flat images and that 00:11:32.400 --> 00:11:34.520 all that is happening is that your brain– not the images, 00:11:34.520 --> 00:11:38.640 but your brain– is constructing an illusion of three-dimensional depth, 00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:40.480 which is very clear when you look at the stereoscopic 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.845 viewer because you know you're seeing two flat images. 00:11:43.760 --> 00:11:45.080 What's much less obvious is that 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:46.520 that's we're doing all the time in the world. 00:11:46.520 --> 00:11:48.480 Our retinas are each receiving 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.200 flat images, and our brain combines the two images from our 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.440 retinas into this illusion of coherent depth, and because we 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.120 do it so well, we believe that's what we see. 00:11:57.120 --> 00:11:59.320 We believe we are simply seeing depth rather than 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:02.710 we are constructing depth out of two flat images in our eyes. 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:05.560 So that, again, is both interesting about the phenomenon 00:12:05.560 --> 00:12:09.480 and the wow factor of stereoscopes always, but it's 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:13.040 more about the agency we have, whether we like it or not, 00:12:13.040 --> 00:12:14.584 to make sense of the world. 00:12:16.680 --> 00:12:18.120 When the metropolitan opera said 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:20.440 they wanted me to do an opera, we spent a long time trying to 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:21.997 find one that seemed appropriate. 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:24.560 They suggested Shostakovich. 00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:28.880 I said yes to Shostakovich, but first prize for me would be The Nose. 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:32.200 I've always wanted to do 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:34.880 a Russian project, which is to say, a project in which all 00:12:34.880 --> 00:12:36.920 those different things could be looked at, which is the 00:12:36.920 --> 00:12:41.440 political history, the formal elements of modernism and 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:44.828 cnstructivism, and the poetry and the writing. 00:12:46.032 --> 00:12:47.960 They all come into the The Nose; 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:49.520 Not all of them into the opera, 00:12:49.520 --> 00:12:52.981 of course, but chunks of them into what we had at Sydney, 00:12:53.680 --> 00:12:55.680 I Am Not Me, The Horse is Not Mine 00:12:55.680 --> 00:12:58.262 and various other iterations of the material. 00:13:14.640 --> 00:13:15.680 There'll be houselights on and 00:13:15.680 --> 00:13:18.040 all the projections off when people come in. 00:13:18.040 --> 00:13:20.000 Then he'll switch the houselights off, and I think 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.000 the two side lights onstage will be on. 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.040 Some of those numbers are references rather than things 00:13:24.040 --> 00:13:25.840 that are actually happening in them. 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.171 Like, from the dive, it runs to the end of the whole tape. 00:13:28.171 --> 00:13:28.718 -Yes, right. 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.017 -Okay. 00:13:38.400 --> 00:13:40.880 -Can I have your autograph for my program? 00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:41.640 -Sure. 00:13:41.640 --> 00:13:46.300 The Sydney piece is a series of eight projections in one room at the same time. 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.680 I Am Not Me, The Horse is Not Mine, With music by Philip Miller. 00:13:50.680 --> 00:13:53.360 And you want to understand that these are simply torn pieces of 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:56.640 black paper arranged in a certain way, and is it about 00:13:56.640 --> 00:14:00.200 a generosity of viewing to see these torn pieces of paper 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.560 make a coherent whole, or is it an inability of 00:14:03.560 --> 00:14:07.280 ourselves to stop these fragments coming together? 00:14:07.280 --> 00:14:08.520 This is a section of 00:14:08.520 --> 00:14:10.359 I Am Not Me, The Horse is Not Mine. 00:14:11.009 --> 00:14:12.160 And the title comes from 00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:15.200 a Russian peasant saying– denying guilt. 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:17.400 If you were accused of something, you'd simply say, 00:14:17.400 --> 00:14:18.920 "I am not me. The horse was not mine." 00:14:18.920 --> 00:14:20.480 or that "I didn't steal the horse." 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:21.952 Who wrote these notes? 00:14:21.952 --> 00:14:24.360 I mean, this is– none of this makes sense. 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:25.440 What is our page? 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.680 They're satellite pieces, but they're not only satellite pieces. 00:14:29.400 --> 00:14:32.240 It's material that's been excavated while working on the 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:34.120 opera that then has its own place. 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:35.240 So it's either like a kind of 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.120 a footnote to the opera or an essay about the opera. 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:39.520 I'm not meant to be doing this stuff. 00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:42.400 What am I doing on top of this ladder the whole time? 00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:43.560 None of these is any good. 00:14:43.560 --> 00:14:44.080 Here. 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:44.920 Brackets. 00:14:44.920 --> 00:14:46.000 Prolonged laughter. 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:46.990 Uproar in the room. 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:50.934 [chaotic instrumental music] 00:14:50.934 --> 00:14:52.920 But in some ways, you can turn it on its head and say the whole 00:14:52.920 --> 00:14:56.080 opera production is simply a provocation to arrive at this 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.960 piece because in fact the opera had seven performances. 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:00.600 After that, that's it. 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:01.760 Whereas this already has had 00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:04.197 a much longer life than the opera will ever have. 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:19.360 Let's try it. 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:20.400 -Compilations. 00:15:20.400 --> 00:15:21.880 -No. That's all right. 00:15:21.880 --> 00:15:23.783 Just wanted to use this for the soundtrack. 00:15:27.275 --> 00:15:59.035 [faint chaotic music playing] 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.720 The first passage is just the horse by itself. 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:07.640 And then the horse is going to come in and stand like a circus horse. 00:16:07.640 --> 00:16:10.600 And then he's going to rear up, at which point I disappear, 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:12.520 and the front stepladder disappears, and it's just my 00:16:12.520 --> 00:16:14.960 legs with an animated horse on top. 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.320 The back horse rears, and then I leap up. 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:18.320 -This is coming on now. 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:18.960 -Yeah, but they're on 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.200 together, obviously, at the same time. 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.080 -They come– they follow each other on? 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.280 -See, that's what I forgot about: that damn ladder. 00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:27.680 Oh, no, it's actually possible to make that right. 00:16:27.680 --> 00:16:32.491 When that guy at the back does his lean up, then the front guy 00:16:32.491 --> 00:16:35.111 disappears, and we just have the ladder by itself. 00:16:35.111 --> 00:16:59.032 [chaotic circus music] 00:17:10.840 --> 00:17:17.720 So here, I advance the image one, two frames and then shift 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:19.440 the horse– the paper horse– along. 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:47.880 And when I shoot it with 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:51.160 a camera to reshoot what's being projected with the 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.245 addition of the extra elements, I'm also shooting two frames. 00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:30.560 We're allowing a similarity of shape and tone to make the 00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:34.627 viewer not understand that we suddenly changed medium. 00:18:40.287 --> 00:18:42.344 Hi. Hi, boy. 00:18:42.344 --> 00:18:43.991 -It's lunchtime. -Okay. Thank you. 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.959 We will just get this guy up, and then we'll stop. 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:58.880 I think one does think with one's hands, and I think that's 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.080 why a keyboard is not a good place for me to think. 00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:03.997 So people think very well on a keyboard. 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.800 I need kind of the fidgeting of charcoal, scissors, or tearing 00:19:08.800 --> 00:19:13.480 of something in my hands, as if there's a different brain 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:15.462 that is controlling how that works. 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.686 There's an uncertainty of what you're doing, an imprecision, 00:19:19.144 --> 00:19:22.400 so that what you do when you look at it is not to know 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.852 something in advance which you're carrying out 00:19:25.815 --> 00:19:28.794 but rather rely on recognizing something as it appears. 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.800 What I can do, but only as well as anybody else in the world 00:19:41.800 --> 00:19:44.349 can do, is recognize things as they appear. 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.200 So it's not that I'm better at recognizing eight pieces of 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.502 paper as a horse than anyone else. 00:19:51.080 --> 00:19:52.480 What I do do is allow myself the 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.680 luxury of saying, "This is going to be the way I'm going to spend 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.760 months and years of my life is arranging stupid pieces of 00:19:57.760 --> 00:20:00.040 paper and then saying, 'Ah! A horse,' every day, 00:20:00.040 --> 00:20:01.447 as if it's something fresh." 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.000 Okay, here we take a pause for lunch. 00:20:06.840 --> 00:20:07.543 Come on, Tamino. 00:20:07.543 --> 00:20:08.303 [whistles] 00:20:08.303 --> 00:20:09.120 Here, come on. 00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:11.341 The seriousness of play is important in the work I do, 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:18.854 and it's important as a strategy for allowing images and ideas to emerge. 00:20:19.520 --> 00:20:22.789 It's about saying in the looseness of trying different things. 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:24.560 And it is– you know, it's 00:20:24.560 --> 00:20:27.280 terrible that one associates that looseness or open-endedness 00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:31.000 with childhood, that after that, that possibility of exploring 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.320 something not knowing quite where it will lead to, 00:20:33.320 --> 00:20:36.200 understanding one can do things lightly and quickly, 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.816 isn't exactly frowned upon, but it's not the norm. 00:20:43.320 --> 00:20:46.280 All the interesting ideas I've ever had, or interesting work 00:20:46.280 --> 00:20:50.173 I've done, has always been against ideas I've had. 00:20:51.040 --> 00:20:52.520 It's kind of been in between the 00:20:52.520 --> 00:20:55.374 things I thought I was doing that the real work has happened.