0:00:08.440,0:00:10.480 -Take a half a step this way. 0:00:11.240,0:00:12.501 That's it. 0:00:13.200,0:00:14.940 Okay, are we kind of– 0:00:15.590,0:00:18.362 Oh, I know what I'd better do[br]is just check my sound on this. 0:00:20.000,0:00:22.060 It's– no, it's kind of nice.[br]The black is good. 0:00:22.060,0:00:23.882 -Better?[br]-Yeah. Yeah. 0:00:27.880,0:00:31.360 -There was one singer I knew[br]Who used to– always first, she'd 0:00:31.360,0:00:34.411 start the day by checking if her[br]voice was there, and she'd go... 0:00:34.411,0:00:36.000 [hums an arpeggio][br]-Okay. 0:00:36.000,0:00:38.358 -The high--those kind[br]of crazy sounds. 0:00:38.358,0:00:39.160 -Okay. 0:00:39.160,0:00:41.880 -The piece that's being made[br]here is designed to be shown on 0:00:41.880,0:00:45.120 the fire screen at La Fenice[br]Opera House in Venice. 0:00:45.120,0:00:47.240 And the principle is that they[br]get– have a projection on the 0:00:47.240,0:00:49.800 fire screen while the audience[br]comes in and the orchestra is 0:00:49.800,0:00:51.393 tuning up. 0:00:51.393,0:01:02.080 [singing arpeggios] 0:01:02.080,0:01:04.240 [singing over cell phone] 0:01:04.240,0:01:04.840 Hello. 0:01:04.840,0:01:07.160 Hello, this is the– 0:01:07.160,0:01:12.706 this is the pianist calling, all[br]the way from William's house. 0:01:12.706,0:01:14.920 [chuckles][br]So, Kim, 0:01:14.920,0:01:17.400 What I'll do is, I'll play you[br]some chords, 0:01:17.400,0:01:19.960 and then I'm gonna kind of play[br]along with you a little bit, 0:01:19.960,0:01:20.800 Okay? 0:01:20.800,0:01:21.800 -Okay. 0:01:21.800,0:01:24.960 -Hold on.[br]I'm going to speak to you now. 0:01:24.960,0:01:28.588 Hold on.[br]Okay, let's put that there. 0:01:31.040,0:01:33.960 Just talk a bit.[br]Sing– sing a bit. 0:01:33.960,0:01:39.663 [singing in foreign language] 0:01:39.663,0:01:40.633 -Good. Hang on. 0:01:40.633,0:01:42.840 I'm just trying to line this up.[br]That's all right. 0:01:42.840,0:01:45.360 Okay, all right, here we go.[br]All right. 0:01:45.360,0:01:47.594 [plays arpeggios on piano] 0:01:47.594,0:01:50.400 Can you hear the–[br]-Yes. 0:01:50.400,0:01:52.039 -Okay.[br]When you're ready. 0:01:52.039,0:01:53.409 -Okay. 0:01:53.409,0:02:23.840 [singing opera music] 0:02:23.840,0:02:25.960 -Kimmy? Kimmy? Stop. 0:02:25.960,0:02:26.760 -Okay. 0:02:26.760,0:02:28.840 -Okay, let's just do that phrase... 0:02:31.655,0:02:34.040 [plays tune on piano] 0:02:34.040,0:02:35.600 -Let me just say something to[br]you and Philip. 0:02:35.600,0:02:36.360 -Okay. 0:02:36.360,0:02:40.760 -Okay, to both of you.[br]Phil? 0:02:40.760,0:02:44.400 Sorry, William here.[br]One of the things that would be 0:02:44.400,0:02:50.920 good is to not so much repeat[br]a whole phrase but to jump– 0:02:50.920,0:02:53.800 to break in the middle[br]of a phrase and repeat. 0:02:53.800,0:02:56.560 So like where you've got,[br]"Babbo, pieta," 0:02:56.560,0:02:58.400 But to...[br]Babbo pie– 0:02:58.400,0:03:00.040 Babbo pie– 0:03:00.040,0:03:01.800 Try this– when you complete it 0:03:01.800,0:03:06.849 at the "Ta," it feels too[br]elegant as a completed gesture. 0:03:09.303,0:03:21.629 [singing in foreign language] 0:03:22.811,0:03:23.311 Yes.[br]Okay. 0:03:26.280,0:03:28.920 -Make a stripe with the[br]bias cut? 0:03:28.920,0:03:29.680 Or you prefer what? 0:03:32.440,0:03:33.790 - I don't know. 0:03:33.790,0:03:40.400 [both speaking quietly] 0:03:40.400,0:03:41.840 I work with a wonderful opera 0:03:41.840,0:03:45.600 singer who lives in Cape Town.[br]so I called her, and I said, 0:03:45.600,0:03:49.160 "Kimmy, would you sing this[br]arietta on the phone, and I'll 0:03:49.160,0:03:51.400 sort of sit at the piano and[br]give you the key. 0:03:51.400,0:03:56.040 It has a sort of uncanny sound[br]of both old and modern and 0:03:56.040,0:03:57.139 contemporary. 0:03:58.440,0:03:59.480 -Initially, he'd– I think he'd 0:03:59.480,0:04:02.560 done the recording on the cell[br]phone as a guide track. 0:04:02.560,0:04:03.960 And then when we heard the[br]recording on the cell phone, we 0:04:03.960,0:04:08.240 said let's keep it and work with[br]that strange, caruso-esque, 0:04:08.240,0:04:12.420 old quality of the voice,[br]which is why today there are– 0:04:12.420,0:04:15.760 we're working with images of[br]Kimmy on the cell phone. 0:04:15.760,0:04:16.680 -It was just one of those 0:04:16.680,0:04:19.160 moments which happened when[br]I work with William, where we 0:04:19.160,0:04:22.640 both went off and played,[br]and the playing worked. 0:04:22.640,0:04:25.880 That's one of the things about[br]working with William that 0:04:25.880,0:04:30.419 I enjoy so much is the ability[br]to play and experiment. 0:04:30.564,0:04:33.654 [singing high notes][br][voice breaks slightly] 0:04:33.654,0:04:34.588 [clears throat] 0:04:35.793,0:04:42.459 [crackly recording[br]of Kimmy singing] 0:04:42.459,0:04:43.561 I suppose the first 0:04:43.561,0:04:47.120 promptings to work as an artist[br]are still there. 0:04:47.120,0:04:49.520 The questions haven't changed. 0:04:49.520,0:04:53.880 How does one find a way of[br]not necessarily illustrating 0:04:53.880,0:04:57.000 the society that one lives in[br]but allowing what happens there 0:04:57.000,0:04:59.240 to be part of the work,[br]part of the vocabulary, 0:04:59.240,0:05:03.040 part of the raw material[br]that is dealt with. 0:05:03.040,0:05:06.451 South Africa is very much[br]part of the work. 0:05:07.344,0:05:11.032 [Kimmy's singing continues][br][singing fades out] 0:05:11.032,0:05:21.913 [somber instrumental music] 0:05:21.913,0:05:24.240 The important thing about the[br]first animated films I made is, 0:05:24.240,0:05:28.840 they were done as a response to[br]doing something which I thought 0:05:28.840,0:05:31.134 I understood, which was making[br]charcoal drawings. 0:05:31.640,0:05:34.440 So they were done on the basis[br]of trying to get away from 0:05:34.440,0:05:36.840 a program of doing drawings,[br]having exhibitions, in which 0:05:36.840,0:05:40.360 I could see my life heading out[br]ahead of me, 13 more solo 0:05:40.360,0:05:42.400 exhibitions of charcoal[br]drawings. 0:05:42.400,0:05:44.600 So I decided I had to do[br]something that couldn't possibly 0:05:44.600,0:05:47.400 fit into that context, that[br]wasn't going to be in a gallery, 0:05:47.400,0:05:50.750 that was done for my own[br]interest and pleasure, 0:05:51.135,0:05:54.226 and Soho and Felix came out[br]of that. 0:05:57.960,0:05:59.080 There was no expectation they 0:05:59.080,0:06:02.040 would be part of the real work[br]I was doing, that they would 0:06:02.040,0:06:05.280 have to be understood or justify[br]themselves in a broader world 0:06:05.280,0:06:08.640 at all or that they had to even[br]have a logic to them. 0:06:08.640,0:06:09.560 It doesn't matter if there isn't 0:06:09.560,0:06:11.800 a story because it's not trying[br]to sell it to a producer; 0:06:11.800,0:06:14.000 it's not starting with[br]distribution. 0:06:14.000,0:06:16.640 It's starting with its own crazy[br]logic, so it doesn't matter 0:06:16.640,0:06:18.240 who these two characters are[br]or what their names are. 0:06:18.240,0:06:19.560 They don't have to represent 0:06:19.560,0:06:21.720 anyone but themselves in the film. 0:06:22.635,0:06:24.400 It took me a long time to[br]kind of understand that, and 0:06:24.400,0:06:26.600 that was the substantive work[br]I was doing. 0:06:26.600,0:06:28.120 And so that experience gave me 0:06:28.120,0:06:31.640 a lot of confidence in the[br]validity of working without 0:06:31.640,0:06:35.760 a program, without the essay[br]being written in advance. 0:06:35.760,0:06:37.760 I made a decision I would never 0:06:37.760,0:06:40.800 ever write a script; I would[br]never write a storyboard; 0:06:40.800,0:06:42.711 I would never ever write[br]a proposal. 0:06:43.819,0:06:45.160 [water burbling] 0:06:45.259,0:06:48.760 The history of Jews in South[br]Africa is quite complex in the 0:06:48.760,0:06:52.000 sense that there were, as there[br]are in all parts of the world, 0:06:52.000,0:06:55.120 an absolute overrepresentative[br]number of Jewish people who were 0:06:55.120,0:06:57.720 iInvolved in liberation[br]struggles, in fights against 0:06:57.720,0:07:01.680 apartheid, who had very[br]honorable, ethical, 0:07:01.680,0:07:03.400 and moral lives. 0:07:03.400,0:07:04.360 But there were also a large 0:07:04.360,0:07:07.000 number of Jewish people who did[br]very well under the nationalist 0:07:07.000,0:07:09.868 government, who made a lot of[br]money through it. 0:07:11.622,0:07:13.471 [faint, repetitive tapping] 0:07:13.471,0:07:16.648 The depiction of Soho and Felix,[br]who are both Jewish, 0:07:16.648,0:07:19.640 so in the– Soho's a Jewish[br]businessman. 0:07:20.796,0:07:22.000 It has to do with that[br]double edge. 0:07:22.000,0:07:23.800 It would have been very easy to[br]have done– say, "Okay, I'm gonna 0:07:23.800,0:07:27.120 draw a terrible Afrikaner and[br]make him entirely separate and 0:07:27.120,0:07:28.524 distant from myself." 0:07:29.608,0:07:32.360 Whereas, the Soho is a kind of 0:07:32.360,0:07:34.197 understanding that that's part[br]of who I am. 0:07:34.920,0:07:37.080 The pinstripe– someone who[br]always wears a pinstripe suit 0:07:37.080,0:07:38.828 is from a photograph of my[br]grandfather. 0:07:39.840,0:07:41.040 The two names came out 0:07:41.040,0:07:43.120 of a dream, and it came out of[br]the period when I said, "I'm 0:07:43.120,0:07:44.160 making this film for myself. 0:07:44.160,0:07:45.279 I don't have to question 0:07:45.640,0:07:47.334 who these names are[br]or what they mean." 0:07:52.156,0:07:53.366 [cat meows] 0:07:55.558,0:07:57.880 I then understood later on[br]that they're both a kind of 0:07:57.880,0:08:01.080 self-portrait, a self-portrait[br]in the third person, 0:08:01.080,0:08:02.622 and a place self-portrait. 0:08:03.080,0:08:04.720 So the films have had to 0:08:05.320,0:08:08.440 Either defend themselves or[br]ignore, but they've certainly 0:08:08.440,0:08:10.341 been accused of anti-semitism. 0:08:11.160,0:08:12.360 In many ways, the work seems 0:08:12.360,0:08:16.000 unbearably semitic to me,[br]in the sense it deals endlessly 0:08:16.000,0:08:19.840 with memory, with loss, all the[br]kind of cliches that you think, 0:08:19.840,0:08:22.120 "Oh, this is what a Jewish[br]artist is going to be talking about," 0:08:22.120,0:08:24.120 and it's kind of distressing[br]for me that they get 0:08:24.120,0:08:27.337 stuck in that terrain, but that[br]is where they are. 0:08:33.680,0:08:36.160 The films opened an enormous[br]doors because they gave me 0:08:36.160,0:08:40.200 a sense that it was possible[br]to work without a program 0:08:40.200,0:08:42.920 in advance and that it was[br]possible to make a film without 0:08:42.920,0:08:44.676 first having written a script... 0:08:44.676,0:08:49.240 [woman singing][br]That if you work 0:08:49.240,0:08:52.240 conscientiously and hard at it[br]and there is something inside 0:08:52.240,0:08:54.160 you that is of interest, that is[br]what will come out. 0:08:54.160,0:08:57.435 You yourself will be the film.[br]The film will always be you. 0:08:58.760,0:09:00.640 I think a lot of the work that[br]I've done since then, 0:09:00.640,0:09:03.120 even if it's not using[br]that technique, has certainly 0:09:03.120,0:09:06.240 used that strategy,[br]the understanding that images 0:09:06.240,0:09:08.640 and movement as well as[br]static images are a key thing 0:09:08.640,0:09:10.680 for me to be working on. 0:09:10.680,0:09:12.000 The provisionality of drawings, 0:09:12.000,0:09:14.080 the fact that they're going to[br]be succeeded by the next stage 0:09:14.080,0:09:18.040 of the drawing, was very good[br]for someone who's bad at knowing 0:09:18.040,0:09:20.560 when to commit something to[br]being finished, to say, 0:09:20.560,0:09:21.960 "When is this drawing finished?" 0:09:21.960,0:09:22.920 Here, the drawing would go on 0:09:22.920,0:09:25.280 till the sequence was finished[br]in the film, and that would be 0:09:25.280,0:09:26.415 the end point of the drawing... 0:09:26.415,0:09:28.745 [faint rumbling] 0:09:28.745,0:09:31.756 Understanding of the world[br]as process rather than as fact. 0:09:32.840,0:09:35.480 And temperamentally, all of[br]those things made sense to me, 0:09:35.480,0:09:37.760 And intellectually they made[br]sense to me. 0:09:37.760,0:09:39.400 And somehow this technique and 0:09:39.400,0:09:44.186 this medium emphasized or[br]allowed that to come forward. 0:09:45.655,0:09:46.815 [cat meows] 0:10:06.421,0:10:08.760 In the anamorphic film 0:10:08.760,0:10:10.800 What Will Come Has Already[br]which is about the 0:10:10.800,0:10:13.560 Italian-Ethiopian war[br]of the 1930s, 0:10:13.560,0:10:16.760 works on the principle that what[br]is distorted in the projection 0:10:16.760,0:10:20.566 gets corrected in the viewers'[br]seeing of it in a mirror. 0:10:21.120,0:10:22.560 So the distortion is the 0:10:22.560,0:10:25.439 correction, and the original[br]is the distorted. 0:10:27.920,0:10:29.840 One of the things of doing the[br]film, or doing the drawings, 0:10:29.840,0:10:32.480 was learning the grammar of the[br]transformations that happen when 0:10:32.480,0:10:35.400 you go from a flat surface to[br]the curved mirror. 0:10:35.400,0:10:36.840 So that, for example, to draw 0:10:36.840,0:10:41.640 a straight line is relatively[br]complicated because every 0:10:41.640,0:10:44.760 straight line is in fact[br]a curve, whereas every straight 0:10:44.760,0:10:47.960 line that you draw becomes[br]a parabola. 0:10:47.960,0:10:49.920 So loops, telephone wires[br]are very easy. 0:10:49.920,0:10:51.000 Simply draw a series of straight 0:10:51.000,0:10:53.720 lines on the drawing, and the[br]lines will loop themselves 0:10:53.720,0:10:56.243 around the surface of the[br]cylinder. 0:10:57.640,0:11:00.440 Whereas if you want a straight[br]line, you've got to calculate 0:11:00.440,0:11:02.824 a not obvious curve on the[br]sheet of paper. 0:11:02.824,0:11:06.234 [festive folk music] 0:11:06.234,0:11:09.794 I'm interested in machines that[br]tell you what it is to look, 0:11:10.280,0:11:13.600 that make you aware of the[br]process of seeing and make you 0:11:13.600,0:11:16.400 aware of what do you do when you[br]construct the world by looking 0:11:16.400,0:11:20.440 at it, but more, as looking and[br]seeing being a metaphor, or 0:11:20.440,0:11:22.600 a broad-based metaphor, for how[br]we go through the world, 0:11:22.600,0:11:25.421 how we understand the world,[br]for thinking or understanding, 0:11:26.240,0:11:28.360 When you look through[br]a stereoscopic viewer, 0:11:28.360,0:11:32.400 you're aware that you have two[br]completely flat images and that 0:11:32.400,0:11:34.520 all that is happening is that[br]your brain– not the images, 0:11:34.520,0:11:38.640 but your brain– is constructing[br]an illusion of three-dimensional depth, 0:11:38.640,0:11:40.480 which is very clear when[br]you look at the stereoscopic 0:11:40.480,0:11:42.845 viewer because you know you're[br]seeing two flat images. 0:11:43.760,0:11:45.080 What's much less obvious is that 0:11:45.080,0:11:46.520 that's we're doing all the time[br]in the world. 0:11:46.520,0:11:48.480 Our retinas are each receiving 0:11:48.480,0:11:52.200 flat images, and our brain[br]combines the two images from our 0:11:52.200,0:11:55.440 retinas into this illusion of[br]coherent depth, and because we 0:11:55.440,0:11:57.120 do it so well, we believe that's[br]what we see. 0:11:57.120,0:11:59.320 We believe we are simply[br]seeing depth rather than 0:11:59.320,0:12:02.710 we are constructing depth out of[br]two flat images in our eyes. 0:12:03.000,0:12:05.560 So that, again, is both[br]interesting about the phenomenon 0:12:05.560,0:12:09.480 and the wow factor of[br]stereoscopes always, but it's 0:12:09.480,0:12:13.040 more about the agency we have,[br]whether we like it or not, 0:12:13.040,0:12:14.584 to make sense of the world. 0:12:16.680,0:12:18.120 When the metropolitan opera said 0:12:18.120,0:12:20.440 they wanted me to do an opera,[br]we spent a long time trying to 0:12:20.440,0:12:21.997 find one that seemed[br]appropriate. 0:12:22.720,0:12:24.560 They suggested Shostakovich. 0:12:24.560,0:12:28.880 I said yes to Shostakovich,[br]but first prize for me would be The Nose. 0:12:31.120,0:12:32.200 I've always wanted to do 0:12:32.200,0:12:34.880 a Russian project, which is to[br]say, a project in which all 0:12:34.880,0:12:36.920 those different things could be[br]looked at, which is the 0:12:36.920,0:12:41.440 political history, the formal[br]elements of modernism and 0:12:41.440,0:12:44.828 cnstructivism, and the poetry[br]and the writing. 0:12:46.032,0:12:47.960 They all come into the[br]The Nose; 0:12:47.960,0:12:49.520 Not all of them into the opera, 0:12:49.520,0:12:52.981 of course, but chunks of them[br]into what we had at Sydney, 0:12:53.680,0:12:55.680 I Am Not Me, The Horse is Not Mine 0:12:55.680,0:12:58.262 and various other[br]iterations of the material. 0:13:14.640,0:13:15.680 There'll be houselights on and 0:13:15.680,0:13:18.040 all the projections off when[br]people come in. 0:13:18.040,0:13:20.000 Then he'll switch the[br]houselights off, and I think 0:13:20.000,0:13:22.000 the two side lights onstage[br]will be on. 0:13:22.000,0:13:24.040 Some of those numbers are[br]references rather than things 0:13:24.040,0:13:25.840 that are actually happening[br]in them. 0:13:25.840,0:13:28.171 Like, from the dive, it runs to the end of the whole tape. 0:13:28.171,0:13:28.718 -Yes, right. 0:13:30.000,0:13:31.017 -Okay. 0:13:38.400,0:13:40.880 -Can I have your autograph[br]for my program? 0:13:40.880,0:13:41.640 -Sure. 0:13:41.640,0:13:46.300 The Sydney piece is a series of[br]eight projections in one room at the same time. 0:13:47.080,0:13:50.680 I Am Not Me, The Horse is Not Mine,[br]With music by Philip Miller. 0:13:50.680,0:13:53.360 And you want to understand that[br]these are simply torn pieces of 0:13:53.360,0:13:56.640 black paper arranged in[br]a certain way, and is it about 0:13:56.640,0:14:00.200 a generosity of viewing to see[br]these torn pieces of paper 0:14:00.200,0:14:03.560 make a coherent whole,[br]or is it an inability of 0:14:03.560,0:14:07.280 ourselves to stop these[br]fragments coming together? 0:14:07.280,0:14:08.520 This is a section of 0:14:08.520,0:14:10.359 I Am Not Me,[br]The Horse is Not Mine. 0:14:11.009,0:14:12.160 And the title comes from 0:14:12.160,0:14:15.200 a Russian peasant saying–[br]denying guilt. 0:14:15.200,0:14:17.400 If you were accused of[br]something, you'd simply say, 0:14:17.400,0:14:18.920 "I am not me.[br]The horse was not mine." 0:14:18.920,0:14:20.480 or that "I didn't steal[br]the horse." 0:14:20.480,0:14:21.952 Who wrote these notes? 0:14:21.952,0:14:24.360 I mean, this is–[br]none of this makes sense. 0:14:24.360,0:14:25.440 What is our page? 0:14:25.440,0:14:28.680 They're satellite pieces, but[br]they're not only satellite pieces. 0:14:29.400,0:14:32.240 It's material that's been[br]excavated while working on the 0:14:32.240,0:14:34.120 opera that then has its[br]own place. 0:14:34.120,0:14:35.240 So it's either like a kind of 0:14:35.240,0:14:38.120 a footnote to the opera or[br]an essay about the opera. 0:14:38.120,0:14:39.520 I'm not meant to be doing[br]this stuff. 0:14:39.520,0:14:42.400 What am I doing on top of this[br]ladder the whole time? 0:14:42.400,0:14:43.560 None of these is any good. 0:14:43.560,0:14:44.080 Here. 0:14:44.080,0:14:44.920 Brackets. 0:14:44.920,0:14:46.000 Prolonged laughter. 0:14:46.000,0:14:46.990 Uproar in the room. 0:14:46.990,0:14:50.934 [chaotic instrumental music] 0:14:50.934,0:14:52.920 But in some ways, you can turn[br]it on its head and say the whole 0:14:52.920,0:14:56.080 opera production is simply[br]a provocation to arrive at this 0:14:56.080,0:14:58.960 piece because in fact the opera[br]had seven performances. 0:14:58.960,0:15:00.600 After that, that's it. 0:15:00.600,0:15:01.760 Whereas this already has had 0:15:01.760,0:15:04.197 a much longer life than the[br]opera will ever have. 0:15:18.480,0:15:19.360 Let's try it. 0:15:19.360,0:15:20.400 -Compilations. 0:15:20.400,0:15:21.880 -No. That's all right. 0:15:21.880,0:15:23.783 Just wanted to use this for the[br]soundtrack. 0:15:27.275,0:15:59.035 [faint chaotic music playing] 0:16:00.360,0:16:02.720 The first passage is just the[br]horse by itself. 0:16:02.720,0:16:07.640 And then the horse is going to[br]come in and stand like a circus horse. 0:16:07.640,0:16:10.600 And then he's going to rear up,[br]at which point I disappear, 0:16:10.600,0:16:12.520 and the front stepladder[br]disappears, and it's just my 0:16:12.520,0:16:14.960 legs with an animated horse[br]on top. 0:16:14.960,0:16:17.320 The back horse rears,[br]and then I leap up. 0:16:17.320,0:16:18.320 -This is coming on now. 0:16:18.320,0:16:18.960 -Yeah, but they're on 0:16:18.960,0:16:20.200 together, obviously,[br]at the same time. 0:16:20.200,0:16:22.080 -They come– they follow[br]each other on? 0:16:22.080,0:16:25.280 -See, that's what I forgot about:[br]that damn ladder. 0:16:25.280,0:16:27.680 Oh, no, it's actually possible[br]to make that right. 0:16:27.680,0:16:32.491 When that guy at the back does[br]his lean up, then the front guy 0:16:32.491,0:16:35.111 disappears, and we just have the[br]ladder by itself. 0:16:35.111,0:16:59.032 [chaotic circus music] 0:17:10.840,0:17:17.720 So here, I advance the image[br]one, two frames and then shift 0:17:17.720,0:17:19.440 the horse– the paper horse– along. 0:17:46.920,0:17:47.880 And when I shoot it with 0:17:47.880,0:17:51.160 a camera to reshoot what's[br]being projected with the 0:17:51.160,0:17:55.245 addition of the extra elements,[br]I'm also shooting two frames. 0:18:25.520,0:18:30.560 We're allowing a similarity of[br]shape and tone to make the 0:18:30.560,0:18:34.627 viewer not understand that[br]we suddenly changed medium. 0:18:40.287,0:18:42.344 Hi. Hi, boy. 0:18:42.344,0:18:43.991 -It's lunchtime.[br]-Okay. Thank you. 0:18:44.400,0:18:46.959 We will just get this guy up,[br]and then we'll stop. 0:18:56.160,0:18:58.880 I think one does think with[br]one's hands, and I think that's 0:18:58.880,0:19:02.080 why a keyboard is not a good[br]place for me to think. 0:19:02.080,0:19:03.997 So people think very well on[br]a keyboard. 0:19:04.960,0:19:08.800 I need kind of the fidgeting of[br]charcoal, scissors, or tearing 0:19:08.800,0:19:13.480 of something in my hands,[br]as if there's a different brain 0:19:13.480,0:19:15.462 that is controlling how that[br]works. 0:19:15.920,0:19:18.686 There's an uncertainty of what[br]you're doing, an imprecision, 0:19:19.144,0:19:22.400 so that what you do when you[br]look at it is not to know 0:19:22.400,0:19:24.852 something in advance which[br]you're carrying out 0:19:25.815,0:19:28.794 but rather rely on recognizing something as it appears. 0:19:38.480,0:19:41.800 What I can do, but only as well[br]as anybody else in the world 0:19:41.800,0:19:44.349 can do, is recognize things as[br]they appear. 0:19:45.240,0:19:48.200 So it's not that I'm better at[br]recognizing eight pieces of 0:19:48.200,0:19:50.502 paper as a horse than anyone else. 0:19:51.080,0:19:52.480 What I do do is allow myself the 0:19:52.480,0:19:54.680 luxury of saying, "This is going[br]to be the way I'm going to spend 0:19:54.680,0:19:57.760 months and years of my life[br]is arranging stupid pieces of 0:19:57.760,0:20:00.040 paper and then saying,[br]'Ah! A horse,' every day, 0:20:00.040,0:20:01.447 as if it's something fresh." 0:20:04.000,0:20:06.000 Okay, here we take a pause[br]for lunch. 0:20:06.840,0:20:07.543 Come on, Tamino. 0:20:07.543,0:20:08.303 [whistles] 0:20:08.303,0:20:09.120 Here, come on. 0:20:09.120,0:20:11.341 The seriousness of play is[br]important in the work I do, 0:20:12.000,0:20:18.854 and it's important as a strategy[br]for allowing images and ideas to emerge. 0:20:19.520,0:20:22.789 It's about saying in the[br]looseness of trying different things. 0:20:23.680,0:20:24.560 And it is– you know, it's 0:20:24.560,0:20:27.280 terrible that one associates[br]that looseness or open-endedness 0:20:27.280,0:20:31.000 with childhood, that after that,[br]that possibility of exploring 0:20:31.000,0:20:33.320 something not knowing quite[br]where it will lead to, 0:20:33.320,0:20:36.200 understanding one can do things[br]lightly and quickly, 0:20:36.200,0:20:38.816 isn't exactly frowned upon,[br]but it's not the norm. 0:20:43.320,0:20:46.280 All the interesting ideas I've[br]ever had, or interesting work 0:20:46.280,0:20:50.173 I've done, has always been[br]against ideas I've had. 0:20:51.040,0:20:52.520 It's kind of been in between the 0:20:52.520,0:20:55.374 things I thought I was doing[br]that the real work has happened.