[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.31,0:00:14.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My name’s Ed Snowden. I am 29 years old.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.10,0:00:20.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I work for Booz Allen Hamilton as an infrastructure analyst for NSA in Hawaii.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:22.42,0:00:26.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What are some of the positions that you held previously within the intelligence community?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.44,0:00:30.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have been a systems engineer, a systems administrator,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:31.69,0:00:36.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a senior advisor for the Central Intelligence Agency,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.62,0:00:42.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a solutions consultant and a telecommunications information systems officer.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:42.13,0:00:45.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the things people are going to be most interested in,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.43,0:00:50.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in trying to understand who you are and what you’re thinking,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:50.00,0:00:56.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is there came some point in time when you crossed this line of thinking about being a whistleblower
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.92,0:01:01.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to making the choice to actually become a whistleblower.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:01.47,0:01:06.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Walk people through that decision-making process.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:06.36,0:01:14.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When you're positions of privileged access, like a systems administrator for this sort of intelligence community agencies,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.09,0:01:19.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're exposed to a lot more information on a broader scale than the average employee
Dialogue: 0,0:01:19.75,0:01:24.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and because of that you see things that may be disturbing.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.32,0:01:29.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But over the course of a normal person's career, you'd only see one or two of these instances.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.24,0:01:33.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When you see everything, you see them on a more frequent basis
Dialogue: 0,0:01:33.12,0:01:36.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you recognise that some of these things are actually abuses.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:36.59,0:01:44.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when you talk to people about them, in a place like this, where this is the normal state of business,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.13,0:01:48.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people tend not to take them very seriously and, you know, move on from them.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.27,0:01:54.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But over time that awareness of wrongdoing sort of builds up, and you feel compelled to talk about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:54.61,0:01:58.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the more you talk about it, the more you're ignored, the more you're told it's not a problem,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:58.60,0:02:03.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,until eventually you realise that these things need to be determined by the public,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.52,0:02:06.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not by somebody who was simply hired by the government.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:06.38,0:02:14.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Talk a little bit about how the American surveillance state actually functions. Does it target the actions of Americans?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.02,0:02:22.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,NSA, and the intelligence community in general, is focused on getting intelligence wherever it can, by any means possible,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.66,0:02:29.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it believes, on the grounds of a sort of self-certification, that they serve the national interest.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:29.49,0:02:36.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Originally, we saw that focus very narrowly tailored as foreign intelligence gathered overseas.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:36.23,0:02:40.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, increasingly, we see that it's happening domestically.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.57,0:02:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And to do that, they, the NSA specifically, targets the communications of everyone.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:47.12,0:02:49.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It ingests them by default.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:49.78,0:02:56.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It collects them in its system, and it filters them, and it analyses them, and it measures them, and it stores them for periods of time,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:56.25,0:03:03.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,simply because that's the easiest, most efficient and most valuable way to achieve these ends.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:03.26,0:03:10.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a foreign government
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.22,0:03:14.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or someone that they suspect of terrorism, they're collecting your communications to do so.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:14.85,0:03:19.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Any analyst at any time can target anyone, any selector anywhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.50,0:03:24.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Where those communications will be picked up depends on the range of the sensor networks
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.86,0:03:31.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the authorities that that analyist is empowered with. Not all analysts have the ability to target everything.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:31.03,0:03:35.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.89,0:03:39.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from you or your accountant to a federal judge,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:39.26,0:03:41.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to even the president, if I had a personal email.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.90,0:03:48.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the extraordinary parts about this episode is that usually whistleblowers do what they do anonymously
Dialogue: 0,0:03:48.86,0:03:54.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and take steps to remain anonymous for as long as they can, which they hope, often, is forever.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:54.77,0:04:01.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You, on the other hand, have this attitude of the opposite, which is to declare yourself openly as the person behind these disclosures.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:01.34,0:04:03.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why did you choose to do that?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:04.22,0:04:12.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that the public is owed an explanation of the motivations behind the people who make these disclosures that are outside of the democratic model.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:12.27,0:04:19.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When you are subverting the power of government, that's a fundamentally dangerous thing to democracy.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.03,0:04:28.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if you do that in secret, consistenty, you know, as the government does when it wants to benefit from a secret action that it took,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:28.25,0:04:35.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it will kind of give its officials a mandate to go, "Hey, you know, tell the press about this thing and that thing so the public is on our side".
Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.11,0:04:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they rarely, if ever, do that when an abuse occurs. That falls to individual citizens.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.58,0:04:44.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they're typically maligned. You know, it becomes a thing of,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:44.76,0:04:49.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these people are against the country, they're against the government. But I'm not.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.02,0:04:54.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm no different from anybody else. I don't have special skills.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:54.44,0:05:00.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just another guy who sits there, day-to-day, in the office, and watches what's happening, and goes,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:00.80,0:05:08.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"This is something that's not our place to decide. The public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong".
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.52,0:05:15.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm willing to go on the record to defend the authenticity of them and say, "I didn't change these. I didn't modify the story.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:15.43,0:05:20.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is the truth. This is what's happening. You should decide whether we need to be doing this."
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.87,0:05:26.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Have you given thought to what it is that the U.S. government’s response to your conduct is,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:26.95,0:05:32.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of what they might say about you, how they might try to depict you, what they might try to do to you?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:33.50,0:05:37.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, I could be, you know, rendered by the CIA.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:37.35,0:05:41.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I could have people come after me or any of their third-party partners.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:41.43,0:05:44.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, they work closely with a number of other nations.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:44.66,0:05:49.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or, you know, they could pay off the triads. Or any of their agents or assets.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:49.58,0:05:54.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We've got a CIA station just up the road, and the consulate here in Hong Kong
Dialogue: 0,0:05:54.67,0:05:58.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I am sure they are going to be very busy for the next week.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:59.40,0:06:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's a fear I'll live under for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.29,0:06:11.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can't come forward against the world's most powerful intelligence agencies and be completely free from risk,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:11.90,0:06:16.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they're such powerful adversaries, that no one can meaningfully oppose them.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:17.46,0:06:20.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If they want to get you, they'll get you, in time.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.75,0:06:26.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, at the same time, you have to make a determination about what it is that's important to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.35,0:06:32.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if living, living unfreely but comfortably is something you're willing to accept –
Dialogue: 0,0:06:32.39,0:06:36.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think many of us are, it's the human nature –
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.90,0:06:41.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can get up every day, you can go to work, you can collect your large paycheck
Dialogue: 0,0:06:41.94,0:06:46.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for relatively little work, against the public interest,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:46.11,0:06:50.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and go to sleep at night after watching your shows. But…
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.44,0:06:53.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you realise that that's the world that you helped create,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:53.58,0:06:56.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's going to get worse with the next generation and the next generation,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:56.62,0:07:01.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who extend the capabilities of this sort of architecture of oppression,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:01.65,0:07:06.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you realise that you might be willing to accept any risk and it doesn't matter what the outcome is
Dialogue: 0,0:07:06.07,0:07:09.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so long as the public gets to make their own decisions about how that's applied.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.91,0:07:12.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why should people care about surveillance?
Dialogue: 0,0:07:12.63,0:07:16.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because, even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:16.20,0:07:24.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the storage capability of the systems increases every year, consistently, by orders of magnitude
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.68,0:07:29.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to where it's getting to the point you don't have to have done anything wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.27,0:07:34.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.10,0:07:39.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then they can use the system to go back in time and scrutinise every decision you've ever made
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.53,0:07:42.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,every friend you've ever discussed something with
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.82,0:07:47.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion
Dialogue: 0,0:07:47.86,0:07:52.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.01,0:07:57.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are currently sitting in a room in Hong Kong
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.16,0:08:00.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is where we are because you travelled here.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:00.72,0:08:04.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Talk a little bit about why it is that you came here.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:04.85,0:08:08.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And specifically, there are going to be people who will speculate
Dialogue: 0,0:08:08.87,0:08:15.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that what you really intend to do is to defect to the country that many see as the number one rival of the United States
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.78,0:08:22.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is China, and that what you're really doing is essentially seeking to aid an enemy of the United States
Dialogue: 0,0:08:22.90,0:08:27.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with which you intend to seek asylum. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.70,0:08:28.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sure.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:28.53,0:08:32.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there's a couple assertions in those arguments
Dialogue: 0,0:08:32.98,0:08:38.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are sort of embedded in the questioning of the choice of Hong Kong.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:38.100,0:08:42.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first is that China is an enemy of the United States. It's not.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.92,0:08:48.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, there are conflicts between the United States government and the Chinese PRC government.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.66,0:08:55.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the peoples, inherently, we don't care. We trade with each other freely. We're not at war.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:55.52,0:09:01.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're not in armed conflict and we're not trying to be. We're the largest trading partners out there for each other.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:01.86,0:09:07.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Additionally, Hong Kong has a strong tradition of free speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:07.42,0:09:14.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People think, "Oh, China, great firewall". Mainland China does have significant restrictions on free speech but
Dialogue: 0,0:09:14.56,0:09:21.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people of Hong Kong have a long tradition of protesting in the streets, of making their views known.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.28,0:09:24.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Internet is not filtered here
Dialogue: 0,0:09:24.91,0:09:27.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no more so than any other Western government.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.65,0:09:37.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I believe that the Hong Kong government is actually independent in relation to a lot of other leading Western governments.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:37.43,0:09:44.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If your motive had been to harm the United States and help its enemies, or if your motive had been personal material gain,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.09,0:09:50.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were there things that you could have done with these documents to advance those goals that you didn’t end up doing?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:50.26,0:09:56.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh, absolutely. I mean, anybody in the positions of access with the technical capabilities that I had
Dialogue: 0,0:09:56.74,0:10:03.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could, you know, suck out secrets, pass them on the open market to Russia. You know, they always have an open door, as we do.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.23,0:10:11.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had access to, you know, the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:11.72,0:10:19.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and undercover assets all around the world, the locations of every station we have, what their missions are and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.43,0:10:27.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If I had just wanted to harm the U.S., you know… you could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.15,0:10:32.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that’s not my intention. And I think, for anyone making that argument,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:32.96,0:10:35.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they need to think, if they were in my position,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:35.71,0:10:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and, you know, you live a privileged life—you’re living in Hawaii, in Paradise, and making a ton of money—
Dialogue: 0,0:10:41.58,0:10:46.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what would it take to make you leave everything behind?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:47.19,0:10:57.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:57.46,0:11:02.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People will see in the media all of these disclosures.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:02.42,0:11:09.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They’ll know the lengths that the government is going to grant themselves powers, unilaterally,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.21,0:11:16.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to create greater control over American society and global society,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.38,0:11:25.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they won’t be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.38,0:11:31.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interests.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.74,0:11:37.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the months ahead, the years ahead, it’s only going to get worse,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:37.91,0:11:43.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,until eventually there will be a time where policies will change,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.03,0:11:48.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:48.78,0:11:51.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Even our agreements with other sovereign governments,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:51.59,0:11:57.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather than a stipulation of law.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:57.98,0:12:03.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And because of that, a new leader will be elected, they’ll flip the switch, say that…
Dialogue: 0,0:12:05.79,0:12:13.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,…because of the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, you know, some new and unpredicted threat,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:13.31,0:12:18.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.13,0:12:23.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it’ll be turnkey tyranny.