WEBVTT
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36C3 preroll music
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Herald: Our next speaker is Chris Adams,
and we were talking about reducing carbon
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in the digital realm. How to understand
the environmental impact of the digital
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products you built and take measurable
steps to green your stack. Floor is yours.
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Chris Adams: Cool! applause Hello
everyone. First of all, can you folks hear
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me in the back? Yeah. If you can just
raise your hands. Excellent, cooI! All
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right. Hello everyone. My name is Chris
Adams. As you can see, Mr. Credit, Chris
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Adams on pretty much every online ralley.
Please don't try to follow this link
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because it's not actually gonna go
anywhere yet, but it will be up at the end
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of this talk. I'm just going to introduce
myself. If you don't already know me, my
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name is Chris Adams. I have a background
working in environmental kind of wacky
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startups from Loco2, which was all about
trying to make trains easier to book than
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planes. A.M.E.E, which was all about
putting kind of carbon calculation as an
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API, so you could work out the carbon
footprint of anything. And now I spend a
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bunch of my time working with the Green
Web Foundation, where our mission is to
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basically make the web green. And I also
help organize an online community called
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ClimateAction.tech, which as you can see
is for folk like yourselves who want to
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work out how to do something about climate
in their day job and what they do. I've
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got about 45 minutes with you and this is
a kind of rough outline for the day. I'm
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gonna briefly give you a kind of primer on
how you measure carbon and why you might
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measure that. I'll share with you a mental
model which I found useful for helping
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think about what steps I can actually take
as professional working in this field; and
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then I'll give you some pointers of where
to go next. If you feel compelled to do
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something about, well, what is essentially
an existential challenge and the biggest
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challenge we are already facing. So first
of all, measuring carbon! So, can you just
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show you... raise your hands if you've
seen this before? Yes. The water cycle. So
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you get the idea that we've got like a
water, kind of, evaporates, goes along
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into the sky, then comes down and rains.
And then... generally it's best if it
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doesn't go in one place because that's
that's a good thing. But generally we have
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like cycles in nature and one of them we
have is for water and we also have
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cycles elsewhere. And that's kind of why I
want to share with you here, because there
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are also cycles around carbon. So what
you're seeing here is actually some freeze
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frames of a really, really cool but
somewhat confusing video. And as I was
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saying, kind of carbon works on a kind of
slower timescale that might have here. So,
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this is an... this is basically a diagram
of all the carbon in the world with some
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idea of proportions. All right? So, the
green stuff up here, this is us like we're
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made of carbon. It turns out. So a tree.
Trees are made of carbon. And when living
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things die and decompose, some of the
carbon ends in the atmosphere as we
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decompose. The purple stuff here - this is
like the ocean. Fish are made of carbon,
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too. And so are plants and everything like
that. And when they die, they sink down,
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which is why you've got this massive
chunky like stock of carbon down here.
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Eventually, some of that might become
sediment, then form rock, then end up in
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this kind of black stuff around here,
which we kind of consider that the earth's
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crust. So then at the top, we've got
carbon in the atmosphere. So you really
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can't see it very well. But there is
carbon up here. This is kind of
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atmospheric carbon, really. And there is
like if you watch this video that I've
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linked to, you can see all moving around
as a cycle. But this is kind of wealth
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carbon, really. So now in about 1850, we
started using a lot more energy. And
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to meet that demand of all this energy, we
started burning fossil fuels in earnest as
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well as burning wood for fuel. And you can
see the fossil fuels here as kind of stuff
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that's kind of come out of here and is now
represented here. And we've also taken
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some carbon in the earth and burn some of
that, and like... What is it? Where does
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this all go? There's a clue in these
arrows on the screen. Right? Now if we
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fast forward to 2017, it looks a bit more
like this. You've seen like there's less
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of this red stuff down here because it's
got into here and because it's circulated
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all the way around. We've ended up with
carbon in other parts of Earth. And, in
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particular, you'll see that we have fewer
red dots down here, but we've got a lot
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more around here, which is going to pushed
some of the carbon higher up here. So this
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is kind of... if there's one thing I want
you to kind of really take away is that
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when we talk about climate, it's really
about carbon. And we need as an industry
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to be able to get good at understanding
how to reduce carbon more than anything
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else. If we're going to be thinking about
climate. Now, I'll try and break this down
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to a kind of simple way, which I found
really, really useful for this. There's a
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lady on Twitter. Her name is Professor
Julia Kay Steinberger. She's awesome. She
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has this really nice way. She recently
shared this thread on Twitter where she
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basically explained how she explains kind of
climate change to her children who are 4
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and 7 years old. And she basically did it
this way. She got like a globe, wrapped it
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in some plastic and then said, well, this
is basically what happens. You understand
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the idea of being wrapped up in things
getting warm and things getting too warm.
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That's it. And like, that turned out to be
a really effective way for her to do it.
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And it turned out if kids can get this
stuff, then I think we can. And I think
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it's really, really useful for us to kind
of be aware that carbon is actually a thing
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that we do need to be able to count, and
track and account for in our jobs. So
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we've spoken about this on a planetary
scale, which isn't all that actionable.
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But if we were to kind of bring this down
to organizational scale, where the most of
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us might kind of work and more specific,
it might be easier for us to act upon. It
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might look a little bit like this. There
are established ways to measure carbon
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within an organization you work in and in
the same way that accountants might talk
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about legal ownership of a company. There
are guidelines for talking about who has
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responsibility for emissions when you're
reporting and deciding who should be
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changed, who should be making reductions.
And I'm sure in this diagram here to
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actually take some very, very dull, dry
material into something that we can relate
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to, which is hot beverages and coffee.
And, generally, you can think of it like
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this: if either these three kind of
scopes, there's this idea of scope 1
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emissions, which is basically if I burn
fossil fuels to heat up a, say, container
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so I can have coffee, then that's the
emissions from me burning less fossil
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fuels myself and my scope 1 emissions.
Scope 2 might be me using a kettle. So if
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someone is a burning coal to generate
electricity for me to kind of boil the
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kettle, then that's my scope 2. Now scope
3 might be me walking to a store or into a
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coffee shop and all the emissions and all
of that supply chain - that's my scope 3.
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So there's this idea of kind of like
dependency chain of carbon, which...
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because I'm speaking to a bunch of people
who have some understanding where
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technology I think you should be, kind of,
you should be ready to be comfortable with
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the concept of dependency chains and
things like that. And to make this a bit
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more concrete, I refer to, say, a good
example. So Stripe... Has anyone heard of
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Stripe here? Okay, a few of you. Okay. So,
basically, payments company. All right?
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Now they are actually pretty good about
sharing information about what they do and
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what their emissions are. And you can see
this here. They've basically got... in
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2017, they started making noises about
becoming carbon neutral and they started
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reporting information in these kind of
scopes here. And you'll see this phrase -
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TCO2E, but basically just think of that as
carbon dioxide, the stuff that's warming
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up the world because there's different
gases, but they all have more or less the
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same effect. So in many cases, people will
use the term CO2E2 to describe all of
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these kind of basket of gases. All right?
But you see here that from a scope 1
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emissions are quite small because they're
usually just heating a building. Scope 2
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is a little bit higher, because they pay
to, say, keep a building running. And then
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you'll see down here that there's massive
scope 3, because they tend to pay for a
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lift infrastructure and have a lot of
people flying around as if they're prevent
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a lists??? and so on. All right? Let's
look at some other other examples. Amazon!
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So Amazon repeat started reporting on CO2
emissions for the first time this year.
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And long story short, their carbon
footprint is about the same as the country
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of Finland. Right. Which is kind of large.
And as you can see, because obviously they
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run lots of services, which is why you got
4,5 million tonnes of CO2. They also have
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a lot of warehouses and things like that,
and have a lot of kind of cars or vehicles
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that are getting things around. But
because they actually have a large supply
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chain themselves, they have a massive
honking great scope set of scope 3
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emissions. So let's look at another
company, right. Google. So Google is a
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Google has a surprisingly low emissions
considering scale, about the same as the
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African country of Liberia. All right?
Now, there's something interesting here.
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Google have reported their emissions with
scope 1, 2 that you can see here. And 3,
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but they have this interesting thing here,
where this is the energy they're using.
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But this is the energy they say that
they're using because they are purchasing
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what are basically renewable energy
credits, which is one way of using green
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energy. If you do not have access to green
energy in certain parts of the grid and
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Google are pretty good in this field, but
it's worth bearing that in mind. Google
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are transparent about this stuff, where at
Amazon, you don't see these numbers. So
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this number could be somewhat higher for
we know. All right. So this gives you an
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idea of what some of these numbers might
look like. And then let's look at another
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company, which is also, well I assume you
might have heard of. Is this works? Yes. I
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go to Apple. Yeah. So Apple has... these
are their emissions with just their
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facilities. So just their data centers and
just, say, the offices that they have.
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Right. So this is quite low, by
comparison. Right. So this is carbon
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emissions of maybe Gambia - another
small African country. All right. And
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you'll see once again, by sourcing
renewable energy, they've had a kind of
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quite big reduction in the emissions that
they otherwise wouldn't had. But you'll
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also see that in scope 3, because there's
lots of flying and because there's lots of
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commuting, they have a lovely new office
miles away from anywhere. So you have to
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drive to get there, you know, it's like, I
don't know, 40 percent of the emissions
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were just their facilities. We have to
drive there and back. All right. But if
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you look at the emissions from Apple as
all the products that people buy, you'll
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see that the emissions are somewhat
larger, about the same size as Mongolia,
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which is kind of large. And you will also
see that there is a large... this is a
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breakdown from Apples annual report, and
they basically... they're pretty
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transparent about this stuff and they're
good on this. And they say this is where
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the emissions come from. And you can see
all the way around here, this is the
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manufacturing. The machines they have. And
then if we zoom in to like this bit over
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here. Right. You'll see that there's a
little bit of information there. There's
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like, obviously use phase. But the main
car, the main impact from what they do is
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actually making the electronics. So this
is kind of how we tend to think about a
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carbon and how one might report
on carbon and make it and make decisions
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to reduce carbon. All right. Now, I'm
going to share with you a mental model,
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which I found helpful in this field. I
call it Platform, Packets and Process. And
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it's generally aimed taking something
which is quite abstract to this scope 1, 2
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and 3 thing, to something that you might
act upon inside the teams that you work
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in. And it kind of maps to the kind of
groups that you might be working in if
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you're, say, a frontend developer or a
backend developer, or a designer, or
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product manager. So it kind of tries to
map to that. And as you can see, platform
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might be infrastructure you run; Packets
is infrastructure other folk run, like the
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rest of the Internet; and Process would be
decisions that are made inside your
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organization that cause that to be
emissions. So if you highlight a large
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company and you have a massive, say,
corporate campus which is miles away from
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everyone else has to drive to. Then
there's gonna be a load of emissions from
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that decision that you actually make. So
let's run through this. On the scope 1, 2,
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3 thing I shared with you, this is a kind
of how it maps. And this might look like
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some of the things, some activities you
might have been involved in that will
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create emissions. So, generally, on the
platform side, if you're running
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infrastructure yourself, there'll be scope
2; if it's scope 3 you'll see here and,
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well, I'll go into the other ones in more
detail later. All right. So this is the
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model that I'm sharing with you today. All
right. So let's have a look at Platform:
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infrastructure that you run. There are
kind of three levels, which I'm going to
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share with you today, which might be of
use to you. All right. There are so
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basically Provisioning, Provider and I'm a
bit worried about showing this last one
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because it's kind of new: the other
programing languages. And that's partly
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based on some stuff from yesterday. But
also, I'm a bit worried about kind of
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inciting the pitchfolks when I share this.
But we'll see where we go with this. So
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Provisioning is one level you might
actually have if you build digital
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products and you run servers. All right.
So this chart you see here is a chart from
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the CEO Power of Wireless Cloud Report.
This basically shows how Australia uses
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the Internet and it gives you an idea
that, well, we don't use the Internet in a
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uniform fashion all the time, because
basically if you think about us being set
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at midnight as we tend to fall asleep, we
tend to use Internet less. All right. And
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then as we wake up, we might say kind of
have coffee or something like that, then
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as more of us come to work, we start using
it more. And then later on we work during
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the day, then we'll go home. But you will
start watching Netflix and things. And
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then once again, we fall asleep and then
we get to there. So there is a kind of
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pattern. And if you have any analytics on
how your own tools are using your ad
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services are used, you'll see these kind
of waves and patterns in how it works. And
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this is worth bearing in mind, because
traditionally when we've had to provision
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services to support something like a Web
site or a video streaming service, the way
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that we used to do it was basically buy a
big server that can handle the peak usage.
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And we just accept that. Because
Provisioning is quite a difficult kind of,
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because it's a pain to do. We just leave
this big box idling most of the time in
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the hope that we could actually hit the
surfing at the peak, right. Now the
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downside of that is that, well, if we can
make this conceptual leap that the cloud
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computing is someone else's computer, then
it shouldn't be that much of a leap again,
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to realize that computers run electricity
and we generally burn fossil fuels right
00:14:54.930 --> 00:15:00.000
now to generate electricity. So in the
example we had before, when we had this
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big box that wasn't being used, we would
basically be burning money to pay for
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capacity, we didn't have. But we're also
burning fossil fuels and causing emissions
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one way. Now we've got better kind of
running infrastructure. All right. So
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we've had this kind of trend over the
last, say, 10 to 15 years to abstract
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machines away to make them easier to
manage. So this might be VMs or
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containers, or dinos, or unicorns, or
whatever you might prefer to use. But in
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general, the pattern is make something
more abstract and then make it easier to
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spin it up and down in response to demand.
All right. This is better because we now
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have something looks a bit like this. So
we are not... we're wasting less well,
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we're burning less money, but we're still
burning money. And as a result, we're
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still burning fossil fuels. Now, there's
some new changes in the last few years,
00:15:47.570 --> 00:15:51.680
which are relatively recent, and we're
seeing kind of changes in how we work now,
00:15:51.680 --> 00:15:55.529
which look a lot, look and sound is
sometimes referred to as like service lists
00:15:55.529 --> 00:16:01.220
or functions as a service if you work on
the backend with the servers, right. Now
00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:05.210
here, this is interesting, because we're
rewarded for efficient use of computers,
00:16:05.210 --> 00:16:09.690
because we basically pay on a per request
basis. So if someone tries to load a page,
00:16:09.690 --> 00:16:13.120
we pay for specifically that request. And
then when we're not using it,
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:18.740
theoretically we're paying for nothing and
theoretically things can spin right down.
00:16:18.740 --> 00:16:24.450
So there's a much clearer mapping between
the usage and what you would pay for here.
00:16:24.450 --> 00:16:30.730
Now, there is a trade off here that is the
number of providers that if you want to
00:16:30.730 --> 00:16:34.570
use tools like this and have this much
tighter mapping is that we end up with a
00:16:34.570 --> 00:16:39.120
small number of people who do provide
this. So if you were to go to, if you want
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.130
to move to something like this, you
generally end up using something like
00:16:42.130 --> 00:16:48.140
either Microsoft Stacks or Google or AWS.
And this kind of presents us with a kind
00:16:48.140 --> 00:16:54.810
of awkward problem right now. If we care
about climate and we care about like
00:16:54.810 --> 00:16:59.590
basically being able to solve problems, as
say professionals, we have to choose two
00:16:59.590 --> 00:17:04.150
of these three things. So we kind of care
about the fossil fuel thing because we're
00:17:04.150 --> 00:17:08.530
in a climate crisis officially now. All
right. Also since I think December, when
00:17:08.530 --> 00:17:13.870
the EU parlament declared this. If you've
used to running any kind of online
00:17:13.870 --> 00:17:17.720
service, you'll be aware that in many
cases there is a kind of shift to
00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.960
basically use a hosted thing, because it
turns out that running infrastructure is
00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:25.760
extremely complicated. And in many cases,
if you can buy versus build, then you'll
00:17:25.760 --> 00:17:30.030
often save yourself a lot of hassle. And
the final one thing is, well, avoiding
00:17:30.030 --> 00:17:33.350
oligopolies is quite a good thing, and
because diverse ecosystems are healthy
00:17:33.350 --> 00:17:37.760
ecosystems and we kind of don't really
have so many options right now; if you do
00:17:37.760 --> 00:17:42.240
care about this, it does feel a little bit
like this. And as we saw from just
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:47.770
yesterday, if you are at this stage, you
saw Gillian Oliver talking about this and
00:17:47.770 --> 00:17:52.660
how much infrastructure you had to run
themselves, in many cases because we
00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:55.800
didn't win it with this consolidation,
where if you want to use one service, you
00:17:55.800 --> 00:18:00.960
have to buy into all these other things
associated with that company. All right.
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.920
So that's one of the trade off you might
have to think about when it comes to, say,
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:09.350
Platform and Provisioning. Provider is
also another decision that might affect
00:18:09.350 --> 00:18:14.650
it. Now, I didn't mention in the beginning
of this talk that you can basically reduce
00:18:14.650 --> 00:18:20.001
emissions from what you do. If you say a
cloud provide like AWS just by running it
00:18:20.001 --> 00:18:25.640
in a different region. So you can see this
map here. This is by this person who is
00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:29.820
best paid by Amazon to build kind of
sketch naughty things. And this is a list
00:18:29.820 --> 00:18:32.600
of all the data centers and you'll see the
ones with the green leaves, which are
00:18:32.600 --> 00:18:38.450
marked as kind of sustainable regions. And
you see on the right hand side on the east
00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:41.410
coast of America, which is around North
Virginia, which has traditionally been
00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:46.420
coal country - you don't have much in the
green regions there, but on the left hand
00:18:46.420 --> 00:18:50.180
side, where you see a lot of kind of
leaves. And that's because on the west
00:18:50.180 --> 00:18:55.940
coast of America, there's a lot more hydro
and things like that. So, you know,
00:18:55.940 --> 00:19:00.470
with kind of a lower CO2 for each kind of
unit of computer that you're paying for.
00:19:00.470 --> 00:19:05.200
So, yes, you can reduce emissions just by
switching from one region to another
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:10.270
region. And this is because, basically, to
expand that point I shared with you
00:19:10.270 --> 00:19:16.160
before, where you are in the world... like
the place will affect the carbon intensity
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.260
of the emissions that come from running
infrastructure anywhere. So let's have a
00:19:20.260 --> 00:19:24.600
look at Europe. Right. So France kind of
green full of nukes, right. So that's good
00:19:24.600 --> 00:19:29.731
for some people, maybe less so in Germany.
Right. Germany, which is up here, this is
00:19:29.731 --> 00:19:34.720
the land of solar and coal. Right. So
we're not all that green. England is
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.270
actually got lit up quite a bit better
than it was before. But up here, you can
00:19:38.270 --> 00:19:43.380
see Poland: aww, not so good. Poland is
really, really into coal. And as you can
00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:46.760
see up here in the Nordic states where
there's loads and loads of mountains and
00:19:46.760 --> 00:19:50.880
wind and water, that things are really,
really green. And this gives you an idea
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.170
that you can kind of see where the
emission, the likely emissions might be
00:19:54.170 --> 00:19:57.650
depending on where you're on the world and
that you might make decisions based on
00:19:57.650 --> 00:20:01.000
this. But to have to kind of compare
against this is gonna be quite complicated
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:06.290
process. So one thing that we do. All
right. The Green Web Foundation, which is
00:20:06.290 --> 00:20:09.930
where I currently work, is we build like a
directory to make it easier for you to
00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:14.910
make that, to do the right thing. And we
present this information as an API and as
00:20:14.910 --> 00:20:18.200
data sets for you to kind of build into
your own tool in which I'll expand a
00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.940
little bit later. But one of the key
things is that your provider will actually
00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:26.109
have an impact on who you... basically,
where something is will have an impact on
00:20:26.109 --> 00:20:32.160
emissions from here. There is also... At this point
here I wanna segue a bit into kind of
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:37.560
energy markets, because when you start
working with computers and if you have to,
00:20:37.560 --> 00:20:41.760
if you're responsible for any service, the
more you think about cloud or how to work
00:20:41.760 --> 00:20:46.910
with cloud, the more you realize how many
parallels there are to energy markets.
00:20:46.910 --> 00:20:52.954
Now energy markets are really interesting
in lots of strange ways, right. So in
00:20:52.954 --> 00:20:56.890
Europe, but actually in lots of places
around the world, you can have cases where
00:20:56.890 --> 00:21:02.276
the cost of electricity is actually
negative rather than positive. So like on
00:21:02.276 --> 00:21:06.580
a day where there's which is really,
really sunny or really, really windy, it's
00:21:06.580 --> 00:21:12.340
actually cheaper for the grid to basically
pay people to basically take energy off
00:21:12.340 --> 00:21:17.980
the grid to keep it stable than it is to
say power down a nuclear power station
00:21:17.980 --> 00:21:21.869
or power down some kind of large coal
fired power station. And then under
00:21:21.869 --> 00:21:25.470
assault, you end up with these scenarios
where you have a negative and you have
00:21:25.470 --> 00:21:29.550
negative cost. And one of the reasons here
is to basically get people to kind of take
00:21:29.550 --> 00:21:34.130
this demand and put it to use in other
places. And I'm sharing this with you
00:21:34.130 --> 00:21:38.430
because it's the kind of the idea like
shifting load might be might be something
00:21:38.430 --> 00:21:43.809
you're aware of as developers or trying to
kind of delay jobs, for example. But you
00:21:43.809 --> 00:21:48.360
see this manifesting now in how we use
energy, but basically things like with
00:21:48.360 --> 00:21:53.761
IV's and things. So this is an example:
Bulb energy in the UK. They will
00:21:53.761 --> 00:21:57.910
basically... if you have a car, they,
basically have time rest now, where
00:21:57.910 --> 00:22:02.710
depending on the time of day or if you're
prepared to kind of provide, be a little
00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:06.820
bit less strict about when you need
something running, then you'll get a
00:22:06.820 --> 00:22:12.870
cheaper electricity. And why am I sharing
this with you? Because I think you start
00:22:12.870 --> 00:22:21.400
to see things like this in the realm of
like computing now. So this is a paper
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:26.780
that was shared this year, the ICT for
Sustainability (ICT4S), basic conference
00:22:26.780 --> 00:22:31.910
in Lapperate, which I've misspelt. Sorry,
Finnish people. And the general idea is
00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:37.440
that these people started building Kubernetes
Scheduler to basically run a docker container,
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:43.330
run machines, run workloads where
energy was cheap and green by basically
00:22:43.330 --> 00:22:51.300
tracking where it was sunny really. And
they were able to do this on where they
00:22:51.300 --> 00:22:55.200
end up working with Microsoft to do this,
because Microsoft is one large company
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.940
that has a number of data centers all
around the world. But it kind of sucks
00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:02.770
that there's only one company that you can
actually get this stuff from, or if you
00:23:02.770 --> 00:23:05.630
wanted to do something kind of
cool with, say, a more
00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:10.150
decentralized use of the web that... you
have to kind of go through one large
00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:15.740
company. And if we were to look at say,
well, maybe a more kind of open, green and
00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:19.160
decentralized web or Internet might look
like there is actually some lessons we
00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:24.213
could learn from the energy sector over
the last, say, 10 to 20 years. So Germany,
00:23:24.213 --> 00:23:28.220
one thing that we saw was the Energie-
wende over the last 15 years. And the
00:23:28.220 --> 00:23:33.170
result of that was that we had like cheap
green distributed energy. So that we,
00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:38.502
Germany is interesting in the sense that
it has quite a heterogeneous grid. So
00:23:38.502 --> 00:23:44.740
there's lots and lots of smaller providers
of energy rather than just a handful of
00:23:44.740 --> 00:23:49.890
huge providers. And there's lots of
reasons why having a diverse ecosystem is
00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:53.590
helpful in this, right. And I kind of
wonder like this is one I share with you
00:23:53.590 --> 00:23:57.391
as an idea. What if we'd something like
a digitalwende? Right. What if we could
00:23:57.391 --> 00:24:00.880
do something like this to, kind of,
abstract computing away to the point that
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.060
you can run these in the same way? There
are companies that are now doing stuff
00:24:04.060 --> 00:24:07.790
like this right now. And there's one
company called Helios Exchange that does
00:24:07.790 --> 00:24:11.580
exactly this. But the paper I showed you
before, shows you this stuff around there.
00:24:11.580 --> 00:24:16.740
So this may provide a way away from having
to rely on just basically an oligopoly and
00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:21.520
concentrating more power. If we were to
kind of be prepared to think a bit more
00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:27.749
about how we run computing around. So
final thing is, as this possible way of
00:24:27.749 --> 00:24:31.940
sharing was programing language. So where
appropriate, you can have an impact here
00:24:31.940 --> 00:24:37.080
as well, because different languages have
different goals and that can result in
00:24:37.080 --> 00:24:41.820
reducing emissions from just much more
efficient use of resources. So this is
00:24:41.820 --> 00:24:46.440
Hannes Mehnert yesterday. He was
presenting some work he's been doing on
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:50.880
MirageOS unikernels. All right. And
whether you probably can't see it. He was
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.490
basically making the point that this is
how he used running this stuff before.
00:24:54.490 --> 00:24:59.890
When he switched to using unikernels, he
saw memory usage and CPU dropped massively
00:24:59.890 --> 00:25:05.130
by just having a kind of better use of the
existing resources. So this was like a 25
00:25:05.130 --> 00:25:11.919
fold decrease in compute use and a 10
times decrease in like RAM usage. And you
00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:16.750
see the same things with other computing,
other languages. And the nice thing is
00:25:16.750 --> 00:25:20.780
this is recorded now so you can see it too
tomorrow. All right. But there's also
00:25:20.780 --> 00:25:26.345
papers that talk all about this stuff. So
depending on what your goals might be,
00:25:26.345 --> 00:25:30.960
there may be certain languages which are
really better kind of optimized for the
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.929
task that you might actually have. Now,
does this mean that I'm saying that we
00:25:34.929 --> 00:25:39.343
should all go out and code everything in
Ocaml, C and Rust? No, that's a really,
00:25:39.343 --> 00:25:44.640
really... we choose languages for a wide
range of reasons from ecosystem to hiring,
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:49.370
to like developer happiness. And when you
look at a project or a product level,
00:25:49.370 --> 00:25:52.940
you'll see that these kind of micro
optimizations, more than fun, might not be
00:25:52.940 --> 00:25:57.102
the most effective way to achieve some
emissions reductions. But it's still out
00:25:57.102 --> 00:26:00.760
there and it's worth being aware of. And
also, it's worth thinking about if you are
00:26:00.760 --> 00:26:05.870
able to kind of think about the entire
stack of tools you might be using, then
00:26:05.870 --> 00:26:10.530
you're kind of doing something like this
in many cases. If you say use like Redis
00:26:10.530 --> 00:26:16.292
or nginx or something to serve things. So
that's the idea for, like, platform. Now
00:26:16.292 --> 00:26:19.520
let's talk about packets. So this is...
I've spoken of infrastructure you control,
00:26:19.520 --> 00:26:24.450
this is infrastructure you do not control.
All right? Now, you cannot really control
00:26:24.450 --> 00:26:27.130
the other parts of the Internet, and
that's generally considered a good thing.
00:26:27.130 --> 00:26:31.731
But what you can do is control how much
data you send over the wire instead, allright.
00:26:31.731 --> 00:26:37.700
And if we were to kind of look at,
say, the amount of energy we sent over the
00:26:37.700 --> 00:26:41.850
wire and we figured out that both sending
data uses infrastructure, it uses energy,
00:26:41.850 --> 00:26:46.059
which uses fossil fuels. Then we've got
some bad news, like we've seen pages
00:26:46.059 --> 00:26:50.580
growing in size to the point that in
average they... I think the mean web page
00:26:50.580 --> 00:26:55.407
size is now larger than the original
download of Doom. All right. But we're
00:26:55.407 --> 00:26:59.520
also seeing it, because we have mobile
phones, so we use this more. All right.
00:26:59.520 --> 00:27:02.970
And then because cellular network tend to
use more energy to shift the same amount
00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:08.460
of data as, say, wired or Wi-Fi networks,
we have a loss here. So from a kind
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:13.059
of energy and climate point of view, this
is like the worst scenario we can imagine
00:27:13.059 --> 00:27:18.270
right now. Thankfully, there are this, if
we think about Web page budgets as
00:27:18.270 --> 00:27:22.290
basically carbon budgets, we realize we
have lots of tools that we can repurpose
00:27:22.290 --> 00:27:26.820
for carbon reductions. So one example is
Google's Lighthouse. It basically runs
00:27:26.820 --> 00:27:31.418
checks against your page, then it grades
you on how well your page is optimized. So
00:27:31.418 --> 00:27:34.600
what we've been doing at the Green Web
Foundation is taken Lighthouse, we
00:27:34.600 --> 00:27:39.370
forked it and we made Greenhouse. Which
was basically the same idea, but it kind
00:27:39.370 --> 00:27:44.285
of looks at how many resources you run and
then says, well, yeah, climate emergency
00:27:44.285 --> 00:27:48.432
folks, maybe you don't want to get all
your stuff from fossil fuels. And there's
00:27:48.432 --> 00:27:51.424
some other things far worse than we can
make it, kind of, work out the carbon
00:27:51.424 --> 00:27:56.290
footprint from this, because these numbers
exist, but that's further down the line.
00:27:56.290 --> 00:28:00.192
But you can also see that I'm referring to
the ethical web principles here. If you
00:28:00.192 --> 00:28:05.340
care about this as a professional, this is
something that the creators of the web are
00:28:05.340 --> 00:28:08.669
now saying and giving you license to be
doing. If you do say, look, I don't want
00:28:08.669 --> 00:28:11.776
to do this, there is a moral argument for
doing this. And if I want to build the
00:28:11.776 --> 00:28:17.608
web, as Tim intended, then you can refer
back to these ethical principles now for
00:28:17.608 --> 00:28:22.240
this. But I will need to share with you
that that doesn't mean that we should just
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.100
like reader optimize every single web page
and they'll be fine. Right. It's worth
00:28:26.100 --> 00:28:30.620
getting a sense of perspective around
this. All right. Video like, video just
00:28:30.620 --> 00:28:34.510
dwarfed web traffic. When we think about
designs, we might make like to give you
00:28:34.510 --> 00:28:39.799
some context. This chart is just showing
you an idea of where like usage of
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:45.320
like data flows. Right. Now, 60 percent of
this basically is just telling us that all
00:28:45.320 --> 00:28:50.494
the video used and streamed is about 300
kind of megatons of CO2. And that was what
00:28:50.494 --> 00:28:54.191
it was in 2018, which is roughly the
carbon footprint of Spain. All right. So
00:28:54.191 --> 00:28:57.590
all the video = Spain, that's kind of
numbers and numbers you might want to look
00:28:57.590 --> 00:29:01.720
at. Now, video on demand like, say,
Netflix and stuff - just like the country
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:06.596
of Chile. Porn - that's like Austria. All
right. So these are some kind of like
00:29:06.596 --> 00:29:12.610
reference points is for you to kind of
refer to now. All right. And I speak about
00:29:12.610 --> 00:29:16.450
that process now. And like, this is why
it's worth thinking about some other thing.
00:29:16.450 --> 00:29:19.830
This is why I also care about kind of making the
web green, because I think it's going to
00:29:19.830 --> 00:29:23.250
be easier to make the entire Internet
green than it is to stop people watching
00:29:23.250 --> 00:29:28.971
porn, basically, which is a statement, I
suppose. So I spoke a bit about the
00:29:28.971 --> 00:29:34.820
process and how there are other things you
can do outside of computers. All right. So
00:29:34.820 --> 00:29:38.257
they are obvious. There's two ways I'm
going to show this. So there's kind of
00:29:38.257 --> 00:29:41.330
inward looking at process, like the
greening of how we build digital products.
00:29:41.330 --> 00:29:44.210
Right. This isn't visible to the end
users, but it's still a useful thing to
00:29:44.210 --> 00:29:50.821
do. Now, an example of this is the company
called WHOLEGRAINDigital. I really admire
00:29:50.821 --> 00:29:54.650
that. They're really really cool company
doing some good stuff on the web and they
00:29:54.650 --> 00:29:58.140
are one of the original kind of WordPress
agencies and they basically say, yes, we
00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:01.250
do everything with WordPress and green
energy and they started working at their
00:30:01.250 --> 00:30:08.049
own missions and blogging about this. And
what they said was that they know, that
00:30:08.049 --> 00:30:11.340
they looked at these figures and they
switched to running on green infra because
00:30:11.340 --> 00:30:13.600
that was the kind of right thing for them
to do. But when I started doing that, they
00:30:13.600 --> 00:30:17.442
started looking at where else are their
emissions and what they do. And they
00:30:17.442 --> 00:30:20.281
basically looked at and some realized
that, oh, wow, a large part of their
00:30:20.281 --> 00:30:23.420
emissions just comes from travel. And you
guys, you can see office and home energy.
00:30:23.420 --> 00:30:28.996
And of the travel, around 94 percent of
their emissions came from commuting. So
00:30:28.996 --> 00:30:32.327
this is why I'm saying that it's more than
just playing around with computers and
00:30:32.327 --> 00:30:37.577
optimizing stuff. All right. So this was
kind of useful and this kind of inspired
00:30:37.577 --> 00:30:43.380
some of the work agreement foundation for
us to start sharing this. And what we've
00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:49.309
been doing recently is basically take this
model and build some, like I guess in VCC,
00:30:49.309 --> 00:30:53.370
which is I'm afraid is minimum viable
carbon calculator, not the post-growth,
00:30:53.370 --> 00:30:59.410
other kind of acronym there. And we
basically built like a simple spreadsheet
00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:03.260
that is very, very fast to fill out. So we
picked two people to kind of get an idea
00:31:03.260 --> 00:31:08.100
of, okay. These are the things I'm paying
to run. This is the like if I build a web
00:31:08.100 --> 00:31:11.710
project, this is how much data I'm
shifting over time. And then because it
00:31:11.710 --> 00:31:16.900
turns out that it uses energy to keep
people warm and dry inside buildings and
00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:21.110
people tend to use energy commuting. Then
we tracked it, we tracked that as well.
00:31:21.110 --> 00:31:25.700
And we do this to give people some figures
and get some idea of where they might want
00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:30.580
to act upon this, because the current ways
that you report on, say, emissions or
00:31:30.580 --> 00:31:34.160
think about this is like an annual report
every year. That's a really, really slow
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:39.321
debugging cycle. That means we have like
eight or nine kind of hits of the F5 key
00:31:39.321 --> 00:31:44.010
before, like it's a climate apocalypse.
That feels like we should all do a little
00:31:44.010 --> 00:31:47.800
better than that. But this is entirely
open, you can link to the template
00:31:47.800 --> 00:31:51.820
yourself. And we've we learnt some
interesting things and we did this. We
00:31:51.820 --> 00:31:55.790
realized that when we were working on this
because the team were pretty good on
00:31:55.790 --> 00:32:00.490
commuting the let them cycle to work. They
were emissions are quite low there. But we
00:32:00.490 --> 00:32:05.230
also realized that there was actually an
argument for changing how we design, say,
00:32:05.230 --> 00:32:09.370
a Web site. We found that one chunky
background video, you know, those things
00:32:09.370 --> 00:32:13.490
that we all hate. Right. That had the same
carbon footprint as basically the entire
00:32:13.490 --> 00:32:17.540
team commuting for the entire project. All
right. So it's quite easy to make an
00:32:17.540 --> 00:32:23.429
argument to get rid of that and it kind of
meaningful, measurable reduction there. So
00:32:23.429 --> 00:32:27.720
these are some of the stuff that we do now
in this. The other thing is an outward
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:32.640
process. So these might be decisions you
make that affect the kind of emissions
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:37.160
through use or for your end users. And
these are gonna be much more visible to
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:42.169
end users. The example I like to refer to,
because I'm a fan of the company. is
00:32:42.169 --> 00:32:46.169
Fairphone. You folks have heard a
Fairphone here, right? Yeah. Like they're
00:32:46.169 --> 00:32:49.340
basically the canonical Fairtrade smart
smartphone, really. All right. That's the
00:32:49.340 --> 00:32:51.960
best way to describe them. And they
also... there's lots of good things about
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.590
what they do, but they also share lots of
information about their own carbon
00:32:55.590 --> 00:32:59.429
emissions and what steps they're trying to
take to reduce them in a relatively honest
00:32:59.429 --> 00:33:02.960
way, which is also really good. And
because they publish it, we can read it.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:07.640
Now, we've seen trends in electronics over
the last, say, five or six years where we
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:12.299
had modular things and we saw a few failed
attempts at having modular smartphones.
00:33:12.299 --> 00:33:16.240
We've been a shift towards like systems on
a chip and stuff like that. So if you are
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:19.910
going to do that, that means in some way
that having a modular design is a
00:33:19.910 --> 00:33:25.059
challenge. But it means that if most of
the energy or impact on building
00:33:25.059 --> 00:33:29.740
electronics is coming from basically
turning sand into a chip with lots, lots
00:33:29.740 --> 00:33:33.820
of energy then we'll need to think about
where we might have a way to decouple this
00:33:33.820 --> 00:33:39.190
from the rest of it. All right. To make us
the electronics we do have last longer.
00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:44.740
All right. And this is what I found in
there, over LCA life CO2-analysis report,
00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:48.730
where they look at the emissions over the
entire process. They... basically the
00:33:48.730 --> 00:33:53.480
first thing is their actual use is pretty
small for this. But what you can see here
00:33:53.480 --> 00:34:00.320
- the emissions were from the production.
And the thing they decide to do was make
00:34:00.320 --> 00:34:06.570
the phone as easy as possible to repair
for end users or replace parts of it. To
00:34:06.570 --> 00:34:09.639
make it go from, say, a 5-years project
product to a sort... from a 3-years
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:13.419
product to a 5-years product. And this had
the impact of reducing the emissions by a
00:34:13.419 --> 00:34:18.260
measurable figure. And it's a pattern that
we might follow ourselves. All right. Now,
00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:21.190
actually. Fairphone and it make a real
feature of this now, they've talked about
00:34:21.190 --> 00:34:27.000
this to their, kind of, audience. So they
basically say if you can just say upgrade
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.560
just the camera rather than the rest of
the phone, that is still kind of working,
00:34:30.560 --> 00:34:33.700
then you can reduce the carbon footprint
over the lifetime by these kind of
00:34:33.700 --> 00:34:38.340
figures. And I think this is actually
worth sharing because it hints that there
00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:41.580
are options for us to actually be doing
something until we can run everything on
00:34:41.580 --> 00:34:46.609
green power, which would affect these
numbers. And I think I've shared with you
00:34:46.609 --> 00:34:51.550
like a mental model and see how it can be
activated. I've spoken with you about kind
00:34:51.550 --> 00:34:55.639
of carbon. Now I'm just gonna give you
some steps of where to go next. So, okay.
00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:01.590
It's 2020. Right. And I kind of feel this
feels like this table stakes. And I'm
00:35:01.590 --> 00:35:04.930
really glad that at least one person is
taking photos of this. I'd really like it,
00:35:04.930 --> 00:35:09.170
if more of you to take some photos of this
and share with your peers, because I think
00:35:09.170 --> 00:35:12.820
the single most effective thing we can use
in community is stuff like this. All
00:35:12.820 --> 00:35:15.450
right. We would expect we need to kind of
make this just... we need to change the
00:35:15.450 --> 00:35:18.560
static about how we build things. So in
the same way that we would expect a
00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:22.420
builder to know about asbestos and we
expect automotive engineers to know about
00:35:22.420 --> 00:35:26.060
lead poisoning in particulars. I think as
professionals we need to know about the
00:35:26.060 --> 00:35:29.650
impact of carbon and what we do and that
we don't need it to build digital
00:35:29.650 --> 00:35:32.990
services. And I think if we can build
electric cars in the automotive center,
00:35:32.990 --> 00:35:36.210
then we can build green stacks in
technology. And I think we need this to
00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:39.869
become the norm. So this is what I need. I
need your help me to share this with your
00:35:39.869 --> 00:35:43.420
boss, with your coworker. Set something
like this. We've had people talk about
00:35:43.420 --> 00:35:47.630
just how bad the situation is. And like
this is really like one of the minimum
00:35:47.630 --> 00:35:52.950
things we can do. Which doesn't actually
have a massive cost for us, as you do. So
00:35:52.950 --> 00:35:56.960
if we do, we need something like a cloud
moonshot to get off fossil fuels. And this
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.960
is one thing I really would ask you to
really consider. So asking for this is a
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:06.770
bit easier if you have friends. So I'm in
a group called ClimateAction.tech, where
00:36:06.770 --> 00:36:10.609
it's basically just a slack group with a
few other things that we now run from
00:36:10.609 --> 00:36:14.180
here, on meet ups. And the idea is that we
do this to kind of share what the
00:36:14.180 --> 00:36:18.051
strategies are to actually kind of push
for this kind of stuff, because not
00:36:18.051 --> 00:36:22.000
everyone can join Extinction Rebellion.
And I'm not sure that everyone should join
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.660
Extinction Rebellion. They used that we
have different aspects of ourselves that
00:36:27.660 --> 00:36:33.280
we bring in our work compared to where
else we might work. Now if you are
00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:37.950
interested in acting upon any of this. I
work at Agreement Foundation and we
00:36:37.950 --> 00:36:41.160
provide, we have like an open source
platform where you can check your stack
00:36:41.160 --> 00:36:46.721
and then the tools you have to do this.
And if you are interested about any of
00:36:46.721 --> 00:36:50.780
this stuff, we are trying to find a way to
make it easier or to make some of this
00:36:50.780 --> 00:36:54.340
much more transparent, because I shared
with you before about how large companies
00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:58.730
can basically fudge some of the numbers to
make them look greener than they otherwise
00:36:58.730 --> 00:37:03.740
might be. So tomorrow we're running a kind
of on lecture room M2. We're running
00:37:03.740 --> 00:37:06.170
something like a workshop to figure out
what some of this might look like in the
00:37:06.170 --> 00:37:11.660
same way that we set up robots.txt. So
carbon.txt a way to verify this. There's a
00:37:11.660 --> 00:37:15.250
Web site that that's been hastily put
together to give you some idea for this.
00:37:15.250 --> 00:37:19.390
And finally, I'm just gonna wrap up now.
Thank you for letting me talk to you about
00:37:19.390 --> 00:37:23.590
this stuff here. If you're interested in
getting in touch and talk to me, please do
00:37:23.590 --> 00:37:29.010
the Green Web Foundation. I'm Mr. Chris
Adams on Twitter and GitHub. We're asked
00:37:29.010 --> 00:37:32.960
to do some training around this because we
realize that although most of us do care,
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:38.600
we don't have much ways to act upon this
kind of stuff. Then finally, if you find
00:37:38.600 --> 00:37:41.980
this interesting, there's a newsletter
which I've started with a friend of mine,
00:37:41.980 --> 00:37:45.369
Martin, where we're basically sharing what
we learn as we go through it, which bits
00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:51.820
are hard, which bits aren't so hard. And
yeah. Thank you everyone!
00:37:51.820 --> 00:38:01.890
applause
00:38:01.890 --> 00:38:08.380
Herald: Thank you very much. We do have
plenty of time for Q&A. Nonetheless, I
00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:13.930
would like the Q&A to be of high quality.
So when you ask a question, it should be a
00:38:13.930 --> 00:38:19.060
question. Thanking the speaker is lovely
and nice, but don't waste our collective
00:38:19.060 --> 00:38:24.180
bandwidth on that and do that afterwards
on your own. And I don't really care what
00:38:24.180 --> 00:38:27.730
your name is or what your affiliation is.
Just ask a question, and make it short and
00:38:27.730 --> 00:38:30.340
so on. And the first two questions go to
the Internet.
00:38:30.340 --> 00:38:35.840
Signal Angel: You've mentioned the preview
for other workshop, a carbon.txt just now.
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:40.599
Can you already share some strategies how,
for example, the Green Web Foundation and
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:46.110
other sites directories can protect
themselves against being abused by
00:38:46.110 --> 00:38:47.870
companies, for example, through
greenwashing.
00:38:47.870 --> 00:38:55.460
Chris: So I think... you just need to read
some reports about this kind of stuff. And
00:38:55.460 --> 00:38:58.610
get familiar with this. Now, I really
apologize - a large bunch of this was
00:38:58.610 --> 00:39:02.329
incredibly dry. There was lots and lots of
dry material around this to, actually,
00:39:02.329 --> 00:39:06.700
figure this stuff out. I think it's mainly
a case of working out what numbers you...
00:39:06.700 --> 00:39:10.250
what questions you might actually have to
ask. And I can share a link specifically
00:39:10.250 --> 00:39:14.350
for the questions that you need to ask.
But generally, I think the four things I
00:39:14.350 --> 00:39:19.810
would look for: if the organization hasn't
made a public statement about when they're
00:39:19.810 --> 00:39:24.099
going to hit zero emissions; if they're
not sharing their progress on an annual
00:39:24.099 --> 00:39:31.760
basis; if they're not sharing how much of
their business they get from basically the
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:36.150
from fossil fuels right now; then how much
of their business is still involved in
00:39:36.150 --> 00:39:40.100
extracting fossil fuels from the ground. I
think these are the key things and if
00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:42.650
they're not using this kind of scoped
emissions process, which is a clear thing
00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:47.780
of finding numbers, those are the biggest
ones. There is a page on that I've got
00:39:47.780 --> 00:39:52.310
which lists these questions to ask and
I'll share link to everyone since I get on
00:39:52.310 --> 00:39:58.590
the webs to link to this.
Signal Angel: And the second question from
00:39:58.590 --> 00:40:03.980
IRC: The numbers that you've mentioned
that the companies themselves publish. Can
00:40:03.980 --> 00:40:08.240
you verify them? And if yes, how?
Chris: So the thing that you can... Oh,
00:40:08.240 --> 00:40:09.980
that's the thing is - independent
verification is the thing you need to ask
00:40:09.980 --> 00:40:12.560
for, it's the final one. So I have just
finally seen where the voice is coming
00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:17.340
from. It's like the voice of God speaking.
The independent verification is very
00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:24.070
important. All the examples I pointed to,
had independent verification, usually from
00:40:24.070 --> 00:40:29.020
a set of companies that do auditing of
this kind of stuff. Now there is again,
00:40:29.020 --> 00:40:32.150
there's a firewall of tedium around this
stuff, like that thing where I showed you
00:40:32.150 --> 00:40:36.780
with a Google with Google's numbers being
high and low. This is because you need to
00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:39.510
kind of go into the minutiae of
understanding market based reporting,
00:40:39.510 --> 00:40:42.339
because location based reporting and
there's reporting around this stuff,
00:40:42.339 --> 00:40:46.270
there's like lots of academic literature,
but there's just not very accessible to
00:40:46.270 --> 00:40:51.650
lots of people right now. They need to be
more of us who do do this stuff. This is
00:40:51.650 --> 00:40:54.940
partly one of the reasons we want to have
something like carbon.txt was to basically
00:40:54.940 --> 00:40:58.960
give people a chance to see this, but also
linked to the specific documentation
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:03.960
they're referring to. So you can ask.
Okay. So it's nice you've done this. But
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:05.890
whereas this was a third party
verification of this or why is the same
00:41:05.890 --> 00:41:10.860
guy called Trevor being basically audited
all of these companies and like literally
00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:14.930
it's the same dude who's reported Amazon's
and Apple's. And I'm not sure about
00:41:14.930 --> 00:41:19.109
Google. Right. But Trevor is probably a
good guy. But the fact that there is only
00:41:19.109 --> 00:41:23.580
one person doing this is kind of...
come on, we know that there are things that
00:41:23.580 --> 00:41:28.610
you probably don't want to do in this
field. Also in Europe, at least, if you
00:41:28.610 --> 00:41:32.330
want to sell renewable energy, you do need
to register this with the government
00:41:32.330 --> 00:41:37.001
registry. And there is something in
there... I didn't really talk about this
00:41:37.001 --> 00:41:41.430
in the session. The aim is talk about more
in carbon.txt, how to find this and how to
00:41:41.430 --> 00:41:45.820
look this up. Basically, everything we
know about SSL and DNS, you can apply that
00:41:45.820 --> 00:41:50.300
to solve this kind of problem without
needing a freaking block chain. All right.
00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:53.110
And you can actually find something useful
here, right? Like this data is out there.
00:41:53.110 --> 00:41:56.470
It's just the we need to better know the
right questions to ask and make sure that,
00:41:56.470 --> 00:41:59.770
well, we are running stuff on a green
stack rather than a brown stack.
00:41:59.770 --> 00:42:04.090
Herald: Ok. Microphone number 6, state
your question.
00:42:04.090 --> 00:42:08.440
Mic6: Hello and thanks. Very good. Thanks
for your great talk.
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:10.830
Herald: I've said something about thanking
the speaker before.
00:42:10.830 --> 00:42:15.349
Mic6: I know. That's why I said it. I
understand you could try to convince
00:42:15.349 --> 00:42:20.060
people to reduce their carbon emissions.
Now the managers I have been working under
00:42:20.060 --> 00:42:25.710
are generally good in reducing cost. Do
you think it would help to translate
00:42:25.710 --> 00:42:31.790
carbon emissions into cost and have this
problem solved by the invisible hand?
00:42:31.790 --> 00:42:36.849
Chris: So this is actually the approach
that Amazon use. And for some of the
00:42:36.849 --> 00:42:40.840
spreadsheets I've showed you before where
we do not have numbers forecast for
00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:45.430
emission, for reported emissions, the best
thing you can go on is going to be sector
00:42:45.430 --> 00:42:51.231
level averages for the carbon intensity of
spending a 1000 pounds or 1000 euros in a
00:42:51.231 --> 00:42:56.100
particular area. So you might look at it
like that. I kind of feel that there are
00:42:56.100 --> 00:43:02.420
certain people who really respond to this
kind of like cost base messaging. But I
00:43:02.420 --> 00:43:05.900
think it's more attractive for us to kind
of change the aesthetic around what we do
00:43:05.900 --> 00:43:10.400
so rather than us continually striving. I
mean, if we had the narrative for people
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:14.330
for our generation was to basically save
the planet, that feels a much more
00:43:14.330 --> 00:43:19.210
attractive thing than using cost. But I
do... I'm aware that if you are in an
00:43:19.210 --> 00:43:24.760
organization where the primary driver is
cost, then you need to be able to use that
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.300
language. And that's why we've been
speaking about some of that. But there are
00:43:28.300 --> 00:43:33.650
lots and lots... there's actually stuff in
this field to show this. There are
00:43:33.650 --> 00:43:38.240
organizations that will basically help you
quantify the risks from doing nothing
00:43:38.240 --> 00:43:42.500
versus the cost of action. Because in many
cases, when we talk about this, we think
00:43:42.500 --> 00:43:47.470
that we often use... you hear the phrase:
"Well, what's it going to cost to shift to
00:43:47.470 --> 00:43:52.240
kind of green energy?", for example. But
it's like - what we pretend is there is no
00:43:52.240 --> 00:43:56.780
cost to inaction, when it really, really
is. And we've seen just the five years
00:43:56.780 --> 00:44:01.160
massive, massive changes in the
destruction of companies and industries
00:44:01.160 --> 00:44:07.340
and, well, hundreds and hundreds of lives
as well. So I think that you can use costs
00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:11.660
for this, but I think it's a bit reductive
to only use costs.
00:44:11.660 --> 00:44:20.290
Herald: Shall be microphone number 2.
Mic2: You in your research, did you
00:44:20.290 --> 00:44:25.910
encounter a tradeoff between privacy and
security and carbon neutrality? And if
00:44:25.910 --> 00:44:30.740
yes, in which cases?
Chris: Yes. In fact, I used to work at a
00:44:30.740 --> 00:44:35.810
company, Amy. One of the key ideas behind
the company was that if you can understand
00:44:35.810 --> 00:44:39.270
the company's CO2 emissions, you can
understand the supply chain. And if you
00:44:39.270 --> 00:44:43.480
understand the supply chain, then in some
ways you can use it as a kind of cost to
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:47.390
kind of beaten organization to reduce
their prices, because you can see that
00:44:47.390 --> 00:44:50.920
they're much more wasteful compared to
other ones. But at the same time, this
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:55.550
is... so that works at an organizational
level. There's also a personal aspect to
00:44:55.550 --> 00:45:01.170
this. And I think that this is a field
that in many cases is focusing on
00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:06.690
individual action and kind of shaming
people has been proven not to be very,
00:45:06.690 --> 00:45:09.440
very effective. But that doesn't mean that
you shouldn't do anything, that there
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.930
isn't a cause for individual action,
because I think that provides the cover
00:45:13.930 --> 00:45:17.450
for politicians to make the decisions
which will result in kind of real
00:45:17.450 --> 00:45:22.090
meaningful changes. So there is a
tradeoff, because in order for you to
00:45:22.090 --> 00:45:25.790
understand emissions, because basically
emissions are essentially a proxy for
00:45:25.790 --> 00:45:30.950
activity and you will usually see this and
there are plenty of stories around this
00:45:30.950 --> 00:45:35.349
and hopefully there might even be a topic
about this specific subject on Republica,
00:45:35.349 --> 00:45:40.070
in May. Because, yeah, there is lots of
interesting literature around this
00:45:40.070 --> 00:45:44.690
tradeoff that we do actually have to make.
Herald: Microphone number 1.
00:45:44.690 --> 00:45:51.430
Mic1: Hi. Can you make an educated guess
on how much emissions could be spared if
00:45:51.430 --> 00:45:57.010
like the big providers would follow your
advice?
00:45:57.010 --> 00:46:02.860
Chris: So I guess it's tied to the, you
know... I've showed you the numbers of
00:46:02.860 --> 00:46:06.840
Google like that different kind of charts.
Right. You could make the list, kind of
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:13.130
like coyork??... just cheat argument. You
say, well, maybe all of it. Right. But I
00:46:13.130 --> 00:46:16.910
don't think that's really accurate.
Generally, if we are looking at just the
00:46:16.910 --> 00:46:20.220
CO2 emissions from just like running the
Internet, right. I reckon you could
00:46:20.220 --> 00:46:30.920
probably wipe out two thirds to 80 percent
of it, what actually depends on where you
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:34.760
might be looking at this, actually. So
more than half comfortably. All right.
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:42.480
Because if you look at, say, data centers,
the main driver there, the main source of
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.000
emissions is from them being on 24/7,
continually use like three quarters of the
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:50.119
emissions, assuming that data centers are
full of servers which are used for three
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:54.950
to five years, which is common. I'm not
sure this is the case. Please talk to me
00:46:54.950 --> 00:46:57.110
if that's not the case, because I hear
rumors that that might not be the case at
00:46:57.110 --> 00:47:01.100
large companies, but no one will write
this down. So until you know that I can't
00:47:01.100 --> 00:47:04.890
give you a really educated, a really kind
of better guess than that, but it'll be
00:47:04.890 --> 00:47:08.980
lovely to find out if that data exists and
there are lot of hackers who might get to
00:47:08.980 --> 00:47:12.980
know about this kind of stuff.
Herald: Microphone number 4.
00:47:12.980 --> 00:47:16.620
Mic4: When you talk about moving
computation around the globe, basically
00:47:16.620 --> 00:47:20.150
cause to the weather. I wonder if there
isn't a lot of overhead associated with
00:47:20.150 --> 00:47:23.390
that, like additional communication. Maybe
if you know, you're far away from a
00:47:23.390 --> 00:47:26.380
database, you need rooting hops or
whatsoever. Do you know anything about
00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:29.200
that?
Chris: Yes, I spoke to the guy to Alan
00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:34.510
James, who was actually working on that.
And I said, hey - what you said, I said,
00:47:34.510 --> 00:47:38.859
yeah, we take that into account because we
can work out the emissions from moving a
00:47:38.859 --> 00:47:43.980
container of this size to over there. And
in many cases, we might move to the state
00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:48.410
that we watch you when a query there as
well. So his approach was to basically
00:47:48.410 --> 00:47:53.020
apply various kinds of metadata tags to
the kind of jobs you might want to run to
00:47:53.020 --> 00:47:57.690
provide this kind of flexibility. And this
is not new idea like a Mastodon ... is a
00:47:57.690 --> 00:48:00.250
kind of data science company that started
doing something like this 10 years ago.
00:48:00.250 --> 00:48:06.020
They're kind of the ... Green Cloud
people doing this kind of stuff. And even
00:48:06.020 --> 00:48:09.250
before then, there's this phrase called
"chasing the moon". Where was this idea that
00:48:09.250 --> 00:48:13.790
you can do this if you run stuff on the
dark side of Earth, which sounds super
00:48:13.790 --> 00:48:18.990
metal. Right. There is... this is not a
new concept, really, but it is cool.
00:48:18.990 --> 00:48:26.270
Herald: Microphone number five, please.
Mic5: Hi. Do you see any chance of getting
00:48:26.270 --> 00:48:29.619
governmental support with this, for
example, like with tax cuts for electronic
00:48:29.619 --> 00:48:32.540
cars? I mean, maybe it would be possible
in here, too.
00:48:32.540 --> 00:48:37.500
Chris: Yes. I was actually at the EU
Commission Green Public Procurement
00:48:37.500 --> 00:48:41.810
workshops. They've been doing for the last
like few months. And I was... there were a
00:48:41.810 --> 00:48:44.890
tiny number of people from small
companies. There were lots of large, large
00:48:44.890 --> 00:48:48.490
companies who were there saying, yes, they
think you should do is move to our cloud.
00:48:48.490 --> 00:48:52.930
That's the clear solution to the climate
crisis. But they actually, it does look
00:48:52.930 --> 00:48:59.010
like there is guidance and there is going
to be support in this field. All right. So
00:48:59.010 --> 00:49:01.880
I do know there's going to be... well,
we've already seen this like we've seen
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:05.780
the European Parliament declare climate
emergency saying: we need to halve
00:49:05.780 --> 00:49:13.170
emissions by 2030. That's around 8%, year
on year for the next 10 years. Now, most
00:49:13.170 --> 00:49:17.000
of us don't know what that looks like
because the last time you saw 8% drop in a
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:21.130
single year was the collapse of the Soviet
Union. Which is partly why I'm kind of
00:49:21.130 --> 00:49:24.900
sharing stuff like this, because I think
the idea of having a more managed
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:31.050
reduction of emissions feels more kind of
conducive to I guess a kind of
00:49:31.050 --> 00:49:36.630
continuities of how we live than the
collapse of the Soviet Union. So I think
00:49:36.630 --> 00:49:40.410
there is stuff out there. But in many
cases, we don't have the knowledge right
00:49:40.410 --> 00:49:44.380
now as people in the sector to know what
is effective. And this is something that
00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:49.430
we need to, as professionals, learn, to
learn where the levers are if we want to
00:49:49.430 --> 00:49:55.430
consider ourselves as professionals facing
the scale of the challenge that is ahead
00:49:55.430 --> 00:49:59.520
of us.
Herald: Microphone number two, please.
00:49:59.520 --> 00:50:04.849
Mic2: Hello. So my question is about you
talked a lot about how much a carbon
00:50:04.849 --> 00:50:10.410
emission happens because of running a
server in the server side. But if the
00:50:10.410 --> 00:50:13.990
traffic goes really, really high in a real
larger scale, you might have a lots of
00:50:13.990 --> 00:50:17.460
emission just because of their
transmitting the package through the
00:50:17.460 --> 00:50:25.680
datacenter from and ... and backbones plus
like there carbon emission from rendering
00:50:25.680 --> 00:50:30.630
the page in the like formZ and everything
around that. Is there... I was looking for
00:50:30.630 --> 00:50:34.960
it for a while, but I couldn't find a
number like saying okay, one TB of traffic
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:40.250
in the data center from United States
going to cause like this much of carbon.
00:50:40.250 --> 00:50:44.680
Chris: Yeah. Is that your question? What
is the carbon footprint of a gigabyte of
00:50:44.680 --> 00:50:46.830
data or something?
Mic2: I want to have some numbers saying
00:50:46.830 --> 00:50:51.030
like which one is like translate traffic
to a number.
00:50:51.030 --> 00:50:54.040
Chris: Okay. So there are two
organizations who are doing some work in
00:50:54.040 --> 00:50:58.940
this field. In fact, there's a whole kind
of community around greener web
00:50:58.940 --> 00:51:04.670
performance where they are tracking this
kind of stuff now. There's a group called
00:51:04.670 --> 00:51:07.190
the Shift Project, who I've referenced
before, who talk about the carbon
00:51:07.190 --> 00:51:10.920
footprint... the video being the carbon
footprint of Spain. They've actually got
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.790
some browser extensions which you can
install into Firefox. I'll give you
00:51:13.790 --> 00:51:17.530
numbers as you browse to see this. I've
also put together just like some
00:51:17.530 --> 00:51:21.520
interactive notebooks, you can get some
ballpark figures of this kind of stuff
00:51:21.520 --> 00:51:24.859
yourself. So very quickly, you can decide,
well, do I do this or do I do something
00:51:24.859 --> 00:51:29.970
different. So, yes, look at Green Web
Foundation, there's a link specifically to
00:51:29.970 --> 00:51:36.300
a notebook with the numbers for this.
Herald: Next question goes to the
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:38.930
Internet.
Signal Angel: Hey, IRC states that in
00:51:38.930 --> 00:51:45.079
their experience, Kubernetes has a quite a
high CPU idle usage, about 40 percent as
00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:51.250
mentioned. This mechanism that you showed
to adapt the server usage to the demand.
00:51:51.250 --> 00:51:55.099
Does this mitigate against this?
Chris: I don't really know enough about
00:51:55.099 --> 00:52:01.870
Kubernetes to give a useful opinion on
Kubernetes. So my thing was like this is
00:52:01.870 --> 00:52:08.250
an interesting idea because it's treating
cloud and compute like a utility. And as a
00:52:08.250 --> 00:52:13.050
result, we see patterns that we've seen
that have success in other sectors. But
00:52:13.050 --> 00:52:15.460
that could be applied to us. I don't know
beyond that, but I can tell you that
00:52:15.460 --> 00:52:20.310
there's a lot of well, there's basically
funding going into this kind of stuff now.
00:52:20.310 --> 00:52:23.940
But I'm sorry, I don't know much more than
that. But if you do work with Kubernetes,
00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:27.190
please you talk to me because I would be
really nice to have a better answer than I
00:52:27.190 --> 00:52:32.109
don't know in future.
Herald: Microphone number three.
00:52:32.109 --> 00:52:37.119
Mic3: How many talks do I have to attend
here? So that it will have been worth it
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:40.760
traveling here from Munich instead of
watching this online.
00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:46.630
Chris: So it depends what... Okay. First
of all, I think coming to a conference,
00:52:46.630 --> 00:52:51.030
just because there's talks, that's not the
reason to come to a conference. You come
00:52:51.030 --> 00:52:54.100
to a conference to have high quality, high
context conversations with other people
00:52:54.100 --> 00:52:57.930
and get something useful from that,
because like you said, you don't need to
00:52:57.930 --> 00:53:01.040
do that. That said, the idea of like
having kind of physical community is
00:53:01.040 --> 00:53:05.579
actually very, very useful. I think that
there isn't a number, I can't say like
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:10.770
seven because that's going to be
meaningless. But there is a whole issue
00:53:10.770 --> 00:53:16.440
around basically the carbon footprint of
traveling to events and in many cases, so
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:21.530
for some context: I was organizing a
conference in London called Helping
00:53:21.530 --> 00:53:24.590
Organize your Conference called Map Camp,
and we were trying to internalize the
00:53:24.590 --> 00:53:29.109
carbon costs of people traveling, and we
found that some basically a minority of
00:53:29.109 --> 00:53:33.640
people coming across the Atlantic Ocean
wiped out, I think, by half the carbon
00:53:33.640 --> 00:53:38.030
footprint, the kind of carbon budget for a
600 person conference. So there is some
00:53:38.030 --> 00:53:41.780
numbers around that. We've actually hired
a group to give to actually publish some
00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:47.300
of this information out there. And there's
a couple of widgets to figure this stuff
00:53:47.300 --> 00:53:51.829
out. But if you're here for the talks,
that's one thing. But really, you should
00:53:51.829 --> 00:53:56.900
be here to make speak to the other people
and get some kind of meaningful connection
00:53:56.900 --> 00:54:01.430
you can have from there.
Herald: Microphone number one.
00:54:01.430 --> 00:54:08.890
Mic1: Is this possible to create like an
automated way, a platform or service that
00:54:08.890 --> 00:54:14.400
tech companies can connect to and
estimate, like have a rough estimate about
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:19.329
the carbon footprint based on the stack
they use, based on the bandwidth, based on
00:54:19.329 --> 00:54:22.740
the, you know, different process
information.
00:54:22.740 --> 00:54:28.580
Chris: It depends. This relies on the
organization having access to the matrix
00:54:28.580 --> 00:54:33.300
that will go in as an input. So garbage
in, garbage out. Right. So the spreadsheet
00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:37.390
I pointed to gives you a very, very low
quality version of doing that. There's
00:54:37.390 --> 00:54:42.570
also a tool called AWS Green Cost
Explorer. We've basically forked a diverse
00:54:42.570 --> 00:54:47.270
cost. AWS Cost Explorer worked out which
ones, which regions are running on fossil
00:54:47.270 --> 00:54:50.380
fuels and then we present that information
back to you so you can get some idea for
00:54:50.380 --> 00:54:55.550
this so you can work out these numbers.
But I don't see them right now, largely
00:54:55.550 --> 00:55:00.300
because a lot of organizations see this
information is commercially sensitive. So
00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:04.140
they don't like to share this. So we have
to go on basically kind of some rough
00:55:04.140 --> 00:55:07.580
numbers here. And this is one of the
problems that we do have. And that came up
00:55:07.580 --> 00:55:12.000
with the grim public procurement thing was
that we don't have the transparency right
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.079
now to make the particular informed
decisions about this. But theoretically,
00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:20.700
yes.
Herald: Microphone number five.
00:55:20.700 --> 00:55:28.080
Mic5: Hi. I have a question about this
double things that you are doing. On one
00:55:28.080 --> 00:55:31.480
side, you have the getting things done
like building sustainable infrastructure.
00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:35.900
And in the last days, yesterday, there was
a couple of examples of that. And on the
00:55:35.900 --> 00:55:40.280
other side is generate momentum like
convincing people to join the movement and
00:55:40.280 --> 00:55:46.099
be more aware of that. So I was wondering,
how does, for example, the Green Web
00:55:46.099 --> 00:55:52.501
Foundation apply to that? In the sense
then how radical can you be like, can you
00:55:52.501 --> 00:55:59.010
kick out people from your directory
because you think they are not doing green
00:55:59.010 --> 00:56:03.369
enough? Or how does this work?
Chris: So I should be clear about the
00:56:03.369 --> 00:56:07.400
Green Web Foundation just being a handful
of guys. It's not a big thing at all.
00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:12.040
Right. So it's been running for about 10
years. And this is a thing that we have
00:56:12.040 --> 00:56:15.790
been doing for the last six months. I
mean, I joined in March and we started
00:56:15.790 --> 00:56:20.310
looking through this and we are basically
now, we've been contacting our providers
00:56:20.310 --> 00:56:25.390
and say: look, we need you to provide some
more useful and some more rigorous data
00:56:25.390 --> 00:56:31.050
evidence to back up your green claims. For
this reason, because you can't...
00:56:31.050 --> 00:56:34.611
basically, it's as the stakes are got
higher, it's become more and more
00:56:34.611 --> 00:56:38.160
important to actually do this. And if
you're going to base decisions about how
00:56:38.160 --> 00:56:43.270
you kind of choose infrastructure from now
on, it makes a lot of sense to do that. So
00:56:43.270 --> 00:56:46.900
we are heading in that direction to say,
look, if you can't share this information,
00:56:46.900 --> 00:56:52.750
we're going to stop listing you. But we
have given, because we're not so sure
00:56:52.750 --> 00:56:58.650
ourselves in this, we we're giving people
a deadline to get this information. So you
00:56:58.650 --> 00:57:02.660
probably see some the stats change over
the coming weeks as the way that we do our
00:57:02.660 --> 00:57:07.300
reporting changes. But because we released
open data sets around this on a regular
00:57:07.300 --> 00:57:12.760
basis, you can actually see this.
Herald: Microphone number two.
00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:18.540
Mic2: Hey, have you heard about the
Science Based Targets initiative? And if
00:57:18.540 --> 00:57:20.540
yes, what do you think of them?
Chris: So Science Based Targets is
00:57:20.540 --> 00:57:26.000
interesting because they are one of the
drivers to basic... So if you're not
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:30.290
familiar what Science Based Targets are:
Science Based Targets are basically a way
00:57:30.290 --> 00:57:34.390
to say, well, if you're an organization
and you want to hit net zero, the science
00:57:34.390 --> 00:57:39.329
dictates that you need to take these steps
here. I actually think they're better than
00:57:39.329 --> 00:57:42.359
nothing in a lot of cases and I think
they're probably one of the more effective
00:57:42.359 --> 00:57:47.230
things to use. And they also insist that
you do need to understand emissions in
00:57:47.230 --> 00:57:50.950
your supply chain. So I imagine
organizations that sign up to Science
00:57:50.950 --> 00:57:55.020
Based Targets will come on pump against
the problems that I've just explained
00:57:55.020 --> 00:58:00.020
about, trying to get numbers from the
large companies who tend to be coy about
00:58:00.020 --> 00:58:06.450
sharing this stuff. I think it makes total
sense at corporate level. If you're not a
00:58:06.450 --> 00:58:12.359
state body. But I feel that the legally
binding targets that are now in place in
00:58:12.359 --> 00:58:16.900
the U.K. and we are likely to see in
Europe in the next six months to a year,
00:58:16.900 --> 00:58:21.010
would be greater levers, because they
provide a degree of certainty for people
00:58:21.010 --> 00:58:25.560
to then justify decisions. Because it's
the law now, rather than being a thing
00:58:25.560 --> 00:58:30.730
that you might get unemployed for.
Herald: Question from the Internet.
00:58:30.730 --> 00:58:36.090
Signal Angel: You mentioned that video on
the Internet is a large majority of the
00:58:36.090 --> 00:58:41.550
energy usage. Can you say something about
how this breaks down to encoding, storage,
00:58:41.550 --> 00:58:46.339
transmission and decoding?
Chris: Yes. Those numbers, I understand,
00:58:46.339 --> 00:58:50.750
are all about just the transfer. So I
don't think there is much about the
00:58:50.750 --> 00:58:53.290
encoding parts on that. That's just
sending.
00:58:53.290 --> 00:58:57.710
Signal Angel: And quick follow up: can you
approximately say how much people can save
00:58:57.710 --> 00:59:02.970
by, for example, staying on single
definition or SD instead of HD?
00:59:02.970 --> 00:59:08.910
Chris: I... was it four times? I don't
know what that the change in resolution
00:59:08.910 --> 00:59:13.910
would be and it's not something I feel
comfortable showing numbers on, because I
00:59:13.910 --> 00:59:19.040
basically be making up on the spot. I feel
that the solution is telling people to not
00:59:19.040 --> 00:59:24.400
do something like this - I think it's
really, really hard ask and seriously,
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:29.240
speeding? Getting off fossil fuels is a
much better way to solve this problem than
00:59:29.240 --> 00:59:33.160
telling people they're not allowed to
watch Netflix ever again or only in low
00:59:33.160 --> 00:59:38.369
resolution, for example. Like we like
technology because we're like 15000 people
00:59:38.369 --> 00:59:41.630
here because we like technology. Telling
everyone you don't get to use technology
00:59:41.630 --> 00:59:46.170
anymore is gonna be much, much harder to
sell than just use green power and stop
00:59:46.170 --> 00:59:49.980
running fossil fuels.
Herald: Okay. Last question goes to
00:59:49.980 --> 00:59:53.369
microphone number one.
Mic1: Hello. I work for a company that...
00:59:53.369 --> 00:59:56.790
Herald: I've said something about
affiliations and introductions. Stage your
00:59:56.790 --> 01:00:02.200
question? We're pretty much out of time.
Mic1: If a company owns a lot of servers
01:00:02.200 --> 01:00:10.470
and the only solution to reduce the carbon
footprint was to switch to green energy,
01:00:10.470 --> 01:00:16.760
this would increase the costs for the
energy. And I'm afraid that I don't have
01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:25.560
good arguments to go to ask them to switch
to green energy because of the costs.
01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:30.630
Chris: Green energy is cheaper than fossil
fuel energy now, like ... so, we've seen
01:00:30.630 --> 01:00:34.400
this massive reduction in costs like a
like storage has come down by 85 percent
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:39.110
in the last say 10 years, we've seen a
massive drop in renewables, like this
01:00:39.110 --> 01:00:43.710
argument is kind of being solved at that
level there. It's a choice of provider or
01:00:43.710 --> 01:00:47.550
something separate. But I think in many
cases it's going to be a case of choosing
01:00:47.550 --> 01:00:51.331
who you want to do that. And if you're
trying to make this argument here, you can
01:00:51.331 --> 01:00:55.600
make the argument that generally people
tend to want to work in companies that are
01:00:55.600 --> 01:00:59.810
not destroying the planet. And if you want
to retain people or attract new people
01:00:59.810 --> 01:01:03.960
saying, hi, we're part of the solution,
not the problem is a good way to present
01:01:03.960 --> 01:01:08.180
this. And that's why lots of organizations
talk about kind of green credentials
01:01:08.180 --> 01:01:11.900
because it's a recruiting tool in the same
way that they talk about open source or
01:01:11.900 --> 01:01:15.160
working from home or anything like that,
especially as we get older and have more
01:01:15.160 --> 01:01:20.170
kids and then realize that: wow, they'll
be alive when this stuff happens! Okay.
01:01:20.170 --> 01:01:23.230
Herald: Thank you so much. We're out of
time.
01:01:23.230 --> 01:01:24.230
applause
01:01:24.230 --> 01:01:25.230
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