Welcome to our forum discussion on "The Roots of Prejudice"
We'll be talking about what our prejudices are, where they came from, how they're nourished, and perhaps even how to get rid of them
Let me introduce you to the four student participants in today's discussion
Ratanati Iskandar Dinata, high school student, 17 years old, and also a talented dancer from Indonesia
From Japan, Yoriko Konishi, whose lovely voice you've just heard
From time to time we like you to get a sense of what we do in all those times when we aren't having serious discussions
We very often get Yoriko to dance or sing for us - she does both
From the United Kingdom, 18 year old Judith Reader. Judith's got a bit of a cold today. It did not come from swimming in the Atlantic ocean,
Although she assures us that when she's in England she does swim in the ocean during the winter
From the Philippines, Raul Contreras. Raul will be 16 years old, patriotically enough, on the 4th of July
He may admit some prejudices but one he obviously doesn't have is a prejudice against women,
Or he wouldn't have been willing to appear tonight with three women, being the only male on the program
Now on this question of prejudice perhaps we ought to start out by trying to define what you think prejudices are
What do you think prejudice is, Ratnati?
I think prejudice is a feeling of hate of people, as a group or individual... Toward other people.
You say a feeling of hate... Do you think prejudice is as strong as hate?
Yes, when there is somebody who is prejudiced, then the answer will be "I hate such and such"
Well I suppose that is true... What do you think prejudice is, Yoriko?
Well, I found that if somebody distinguishes between two white men, it is not prejudice
But if somebody distinguishes between a white man and a coloured man, it is prejudice
I would define prejudice as a rigid opinion, formed about a certain thing before there has been a just examination of the facts
When a person loses track of the dignity of the human soul and begins to judge others not on the basis of their being persons,
But on the basis of race, creed, economic status - that is prejudice
Well, is it fair to ask you whether you have any prejudices?
Well I guess so Mrs. Waller, and being brutally frank, I am prejudiced against Japanese
Not to the extent that I hate them, no not that way, but I got this as a result of World War II
Because, well, I guess I was yet too young to understand what happened during those times
But I think that what my relatives, and friends, and the people who were witness to that unfateful occasion...
Well, more than justified the fact. And I think it's justified for me to feel the same way, because I know that my people suffered very much under that rule
Are you still as prejudiced against the Japanese as you were?
Well, five years ago that prejudice of mine was slightly fading away
But when Japan stubbornly refused to pay reparations to us, the prejudice began to brew again
But now I found out from close contact with Yoriko and other Japanese, that Japan isn't ready to pay reparations yet
Because as Yoriko said, most of them even have to suffer the cold in the classrooms, because they can't afford to heat the schools
Yoriko, have you got any prejudices?
Well, I don't have any prejudice for Philippines...
But many Japanese people hate Korea, because the president of Korea made his own line on the public sea between Korea and Japan [Syngman Rhee Line]
And if Japanese fishermen go over the line, they are caught by Korean people, and they can't go home for a while
And we are trying to be friends with Korea
Now that we've started, we better go on around the circle. Judith, have you got any prejudices that you'll admit?
Yes I suppose I better admit them, although i'm English... I have some very foolish prejudices, you'll probably laugh
For instance, as soon as I meet a person with red hair, I always put myself on my guard
Because I have a silly prejudice that all red-headed people have terrible tempers, you know, that they're as passionate as the colour of their hair
Oh and then I have another silly prejudice, for example when I first met the Australian delegate, Elizabeth Woodgate, who hasn't been on television yet
I was shocked by her accent, because to me it sounds just like a Cockney accent would in England
And I hope I'm not conceited or anything, but a Cockney accent in England... You know most English people would shudder a little bit when they hear it
But she very frankly told me that she shuddered when she had my accent! I got paid back for that too
Why did she say she did?
Oh, I think she imagines that... She said she really had to forget my accent in order to like me, because it's too formal
I gather most Americans think that about English as well
Ratnati, it's your turn
Sometimes I feel prejudiced against the Dutch people, when in school I learned the history, and learned how the Dutch people treated Indonesians
And I have some other prejudices of my own; I hate people who are proud, and
Who feel that he is the master of the other, and who think they know everything better than anybody else
Let's come back to you a minute, Raul. Are there any prejudices in the Philippines between groups of people?
Yes, there are existing prejudices between groups of people. As a matter of fact, most of us still, well, are prejudiced against a group of hybrids
Those who have more Spanish blood than Filipino blood in them, and we termed them as Mestizos
Well, these incidents will usually occur in the schools. As you know i'm in a school run by Spanish monks
And well, we have a lot of those of that group studying in our school... And usually they are favoured
But we think that we are right in saying that they are sort of aristocratic, conceited, and high-headed and sore-headed and all sorts of adjectives
And they have the foolish idea that they have the royal blood, or royalty in them!
Well how do you get along with these boys in school, Raul? Are there any problems?
Well frankly speaking, I don't get along with them pretty well. As a matter of fact, well, we usually fight with one another
Yes, Yoriko?
Japan has had many American or European soldiers after the war
And most of them married Japanese girls - not only formal wedding [implying children born out of wedlock]
And they made children, who are called "hybrids"
And I think the hybrids have no reason to be punished
But some grown-ups didn't treat them (as well) as they would Japanese children
And grown-ups also used to also (mis)treat the mothers of these children
Japanese people thought that the mothers of hybrids are not good, that they are horrible
Because they married with foreign people, foreign boys
And many Japanese people don't like to marry with foreign people
Because they live (according to) different customs, and they consider things in different ways
You still have a strong, may I say, "prejudice" in Japan against marrying people from other countries, don't you?
Well... Yes
Yoriko, could you tell us something about the status of women in Japan? We hear the strangest things,
And you've been telling me the strangest things... Could you tell us more about it?
Before the war?
Yes, and now
Well, up to about 60 years ago, Japanese people thought that the white people are horrible
Because they have almost red hair, and everything is so big and about their bodies
Quite a few people still think so
And in Japan we think that for something to be beautiful, it must be small and delicate
You can hardly apply the word "delicate" to some of the big soldiers we sent to Japan, could you?
But I never knew that you looked down on us, because we were big... That's very interesting
We're always proud if the Western men are tall and handsome we consider that a (good thing)
Oh really?
Yes!
Well, we are proud to be small and delicate
What you said about skin color, Yoriko... I've heard that the Chinese speak about us as pink people, instead of white people
It's so much more difficult to be proud of being a pink person, isn't it?
Oh yes you're a pink person!
Might as well face it Judith!
I feel scarlet!
Ratnati, now let's get...
...Judith, since Britain has so many colonies nearly all over the world
How do you feel towards the people in the colonies? Do you have some prejudice?
No, I personally don't have any prejudice, at least I hope I don't
But I know that a lot of Europeans think of the Asians, for example, as uh, as rather lazy
I don't mean to be rude, but that used to be the impression we had, you know, when we started our colonization
Um... We thought we were doing good to you. I know that you you dislike for example, in Indonesia... You dislike the Dutch there
But they probably thought they were helping you
They were not helping us... See, you mentioned that we are lazy, well, we are not exactly lazy,
But they didn't give us a chance, you see, and we didn't get to experience to build our country
Well Judy, I don't think all Asians are lazy!
No, please you're misunderstanding me! I said that was a general opinion... Maybe not now, I hope certainly not
General opinion? Well, it's sort of wrong to say that they're lazy
Let's just say that they've got the very flat feet that they can't lift them up
Because you've got to consider, for example, the climate in most of the regions in Asia
Well it's just natural, you can't just work with all the hot, the warm climate around you,
Of course you'd always feel like fanning yourself, or going to an air-conditioned theatre or somewhere else where it's cold
Is there not only this difference of climate that explains a difference in tempo,
But is there a difference in philosophy too, that perhaps we in the West haven't appreciated I wonder?
Well as far as I know, it and I think you've mentioned it in this program,
That for example Indians think that they should never soil their hands
And in the Philippines I must admit that, well, we're sort of inclined to get white collar jobs and swivel chairs
Most of us do, especially the new college graduates... We don't want to work with our hands
We want to have big offices, with pretty secretaries around us... That's the common tendency
Could you give proof that we are lazy?
Oh gosh, now you've put me in a corner! I was trying to give you an example
Um, you criticise the countries... You criticise the Dutch for example
But I know the British when they started doing their colonization, they tried to help the countries they were in
But you think that we were butting in, and taking away your opportunities
Well yes, I think so. I'll give an example about the Dutch...
We didn't get a chance to be educated, for example
That was when the Dutch were there?
Yeah
And do you think if the people in the colonies get a chance to be free, you will give it to them?
Oh now we're going right off the subject!
See, um, my friend from Malaya is very glad that Malaya will get their independence next year
She's very proud and she tells everybody that Malaya is going to be independent next year
Do you think that if you do that to the other places [give them independence], then you will make them satisfied?
We hope it will make them satisfied... Every country wants to be independent, that's only natural
But there comes a point when somebody has to decide whether they're ready to receive their independence
But I know we could go off on another long argument about that
Go ahead Raul
Well I was about to ask them what do they think are the most common or basic causes of our prejudices? Is it mainly skin color?
Well, maybe...
Do you mean for example, taking the American problem in the South?
I guess taking the American side of it, it's just that the white people don't want to mix themselves up with the coloured ones
But what about the coloured people? Perhaps they don't want to mix with the white people either?
Since you brought up the American race problem, I'd like to ask you:
Is it as bad as you thought it was going to be before you came? Or is it better or worse?
From what I've seen here, and what I've heard while I am here, and what I have read in the newspapers... It's worse than I expected
Don't you agree, Judith?
No I don't agree. In England we don't hear too much about the American problem, except of course when a certain case came up
And the supreme court decision, we heard a lot about it then
But not too much. And when I came here I had imagined from that [Emmet] Till case, that things would be really terrible in the South
And I found that there's a real feeling of optimism here
I stayed in a Negro family, and I was able to see the position... Really a bird's-eye view of it, you might say
And the first thing that impressed me was that the Negroes themselves... Umm, were not happy about the situation, but were pleased
They were grateful for what progress had been made
And they were sure that the situation would continue to improve
Was that the two weeks you were in New Jersey, that you stayed with a Negro family?
That's right, I was with a Negro family. I know that was in the northern part and conditions are better there
And I was very impressed with that. they said it would be a slow process, but things were gradually improving
It was a matter of breaking down tradition, and I was very happy to find that
I'd like to know some of your other experiences. Yes, Yoriko?
I've never seen any... Evidences?
Evidence
Evidences of racial prejudice in the United States
But I found out that most Negroes are laborers, and they don't have a high position in business
But I was very glad when I saw the Negro girl in Southridge-Columbia [?] High School
Who was vice president of the student council
I'm glad you did too. Yes, Ratnati?
Here in New York and New Jersey I don't see any racial segregation, or anything like that
But when we stopped in Williamsburg and went to the Negro school, I saw it's very strict
I mean the Negroes go to the special Negro school
And I was talking to some of the girls in the school and I asked them how they feel about being segregated?
But they said that they don't mind about that, and what they want is equal rights
And there are some places that they can't go such as restaurant or some clubs
And I think that since all Americans claim and emphasize that America is the most democratic country in the world,
But as long as segregation exists, I don't think it's democratic, not pure democratic
Well, adding something to that, isn't it that in the pledge of allegiance to the American flag, you mention something about
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible under God, with liberty and justice for all"
Well the last phrase just doesn't suit everything, I mean with this segregation problem here and the discrimination against coloured people
How in the world could you have liberty and justice for all? And in one of my hospitality periods... I didn't expect that even the kids could carry it that far
I had the privilege, I should say, of attending one of the dances sponsored by one of the civic groups
And I just noticed that, well it was a big dance floor and all the white kids were assembled on the left side
And the most, well, shall we say, "not strategic" part of the ballroom, well all the coloured boys and girls were in there
And I never saw a white boy asking a coloured girl for a dance, nor did I see a coloured boy asking white girl for a dance
I had a nasty the experience too, when I first arrived here and I happened to mention to a group of young people that I was going to stay with the Negro family
One of the boys got up and walked out of the room - and I felt awful, I thought, "well we're in the North now, not in the South"
And then when we did go into the South, I really came against it pretty hard
We went into this big store, and I was in the ladies cloakroom, and I was washing my hands, and I was with a group of the eastern delegates, the rather darker skinned ones like Ratnati
And I was standing a little apart from them, and this lady came up to me and she pulled me to one side, obviously assuming that I was American, and she said,
"What are these Negroes doing in here?"
And I was so cross, and I told her as calmly as I could that I was with them, and who we were, and of course her attitude immediately changed....
But it gives you such a nasty shock when you come up against it face to face...
You read about it in the newspapers, you hear about it, but you don't really realize the significance of it until it hits you in the face yourself
I think the major cause of the prejudice is skin colour, and I think...
I don't know why, but I think the white people think that coloured people have have dirty skin,
And they don't have progressive cultures,
And so the white people are the greatest and most wonderful people in the world, they think so
On this matter of skin color, if you were here in the summer you'd see lots of Americans on all the beaches trying to get brown
Yes, it's significant
I wonder what that really means?
I think we white women have an inferiority complex... The eastern women, and the the Negro women have a sort of reputation for being so beautiful, we're a little jealous of them
I guess you just envy us colored people
Well, I think so
Well is there anything corresponding to that in...?
Well I think so, Mrs. Waller, because in the Philippines, it's just funny... There's a common tendency among women
Well those who have a dark complexion, I should say, or just a tanned one, or just a brown complexion
Well, especially these high society matrons. Well, even if they've already got wrinkles on their face, they still want to bleach their skin!
Suppose you meet one right now, and you say, "oh good morning" and you see that she's just tanned and brown
But after three months you meet the same person... And with the useful society walk, and trying to be very dignified, and cultured and everything
And you just notice that her face is lighter than before! and when you look at her hands and everything up to her arms,
Well you'll be liable to exclaim HOLY MOSES! Because there's a real very great difference, you see
She's very light here, but you look at the arms and everything, and the lower part of the body, and gee, it's just a very great difference
It's coloured here, but it's very light there
Do they really bleach their skin?
They do Mrs. Waller
What about Japan? Japanese women don't want to change it in any way, do they?
Some Japanese women, umm, how do you say... Dye their hair red
Really?
Yes, they like red hair. But I don't like it
What about in Indonesia?
Well, as the Western people try to get darker skin, we try to get lighter skin, we protect ourselves from the sun
But you're such a nice color now, I don't know why?
When we go out we wear long-sleeve blouses to protect from the sun, so that we don't get a very dark colour
Tell me, what are your governments, if anything, doing about problems of prejudice?
You've each mentioned some prejudice that exists in your country,
What are your governments doing to try to eradicate it?
You mentioned the prejudice against hybrids, you mentioned the prejudice against hybrids too,
You haven't told us much about the position of women... By the way, let me ask you right here, are women any freer in Japan now than they were before the war?
Well before the war, there was no democracy, and women belonged to men, and men controlled women and everything, and...
How about now?
And men had the first opportunity to do everything, even getting out of the door... Women have to open the door first
And the men passed first
And in the buses or theaters men take a seat first, and if there is no seat, women have to stand there
Oh, I'd love to live in Japan
is it changing at all?
Yes, it's quite changed, and now women can vote, and women have equal opportunity in everything
Judith, you were talking about your prejudice against Cockney accent a moment ago
Is that still very strong in England, this prejudice of the so-called aristocracy against the Cockney?
No, I don't think it's a very serious problem now, especially since the war
You know this idea that the English speak either with a Cockney accent, or else with a very aristocratic accent?
That isn't true anymore, and we certainly don't despise people anymore if they speak like that
If you go into the house of parliament now, you will often hear a Northcountry accent, or a Welsh accent, or even a Cockney accent
And we're proud of those kind of people, because they are the people who got us through the last war, and nobody would dare say anything against them
In fact it's the aristocratic accent which is the other side of the fence, and people laugh at that nowadays, I'm afraid
In fact you may think that my accent is a little cultured, but I assure you back in England I have not quite a Cockney accent, but still an accent
You mean to say your school-mistress would not totally approve of you?
Oh no, I should be corrected
I hate to think what's going to happen when you go back after three months here
So do I
You'll write me about that, won't you? I wanted to have time to ask you what you thought individuals could do in terms of eradicating prejudice
But our time's almost up. Anybody got a quick answer?
Well, I guess we should carefully examine the individual first before passing any judgment on him. And if we ever pass a judgment, we should be just with it
That's a good note to end on. Thank you Ratnati, Yoriko, Judith and Raul
Next week we're going to continue on this subject of prejudice, with four delegates from Africa: one white and three coloured
The delegates from the Union of South Africa, Gold Coast, Ethiopia and Nigeria