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Herald: So the first speaker for this
conference is lizvlx. And she runs
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ubermorgen.com and she is really
interested in software art, photography
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and net art. And if you heard about Vote-
Auction that was her. This talk will be
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about anti terrorist laws implications on
free thinking and art. Thank you very much
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liz.
applause
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lizvlx: Well hello, sorry that took a
little bit. I'm using the wrong software
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apparently, its not Microsoft so I'm
really sorry. "Do you think that's funny"
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that's the title of this talk because this
was a question we got asked quite a few
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years ago by a reporter wanting to discuss
a project that we did and I thought it was
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the stupidest question I have ever been
asked and I have loved it ever since
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because obviously this shit is not funny
at all. So, yeah. Because it's about art-
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practice under anti-terror laws. I'm not
going to give this theoretical talk now,
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so you're fine it's about practice. I'm
gonna show you a set of projects and focus on
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kind of the implications of anti-terror
laws on the project, on the production of
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the project most and foremost and also
some other projects obviously have been
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produced before all these crazy ass laws
have come into effect. So let's just get
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started. And of course in the end I'll be
doing a Q&A. So a short introduction. So
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for us, I mean when I'm talking us means
ubermorgen.com so that's me and my partner
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Hans. So we started in the 90s and in the
90s it was really great, I really loved it
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because there was nothing happening on the
net really except for the crazy boring
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shit and we all thought it was so cool. It
was just really nerdy but nothing else.
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Obviously I started working in net-art, in
1995 about. And that was a really great
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time because nobody cared what you did on
the net, not because there was no audience
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there was a huge audience. But there was
no question about, because you know the
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net was still not a dot com rearm so it
was fine, you could just do whatever you
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wanted to... There's a little footnote
there because we did get, you know, a few
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problems but it was nothing major. Also
because there was no laws in place it
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really had an effect onto like European
citizen being kinda hassled by the CIA,
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basically local police didn't really want
to help out the CIA at the time, so we
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were fine at the time. So in the early
2000s dot com had totally run over the net
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which is fine obviously but not only and
we had to really get used to lots of
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people bugging us for doing what we did.
But it was just small stuff as you can
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see, and especially the lawyers letters.
These were always very creative and always
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a good basis for a new project I think.
But also at the time there were all these
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people coming at you for doing projects
and its not necessary that you call them
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art projects it could be anything really,
that is not commercial. Were you just go
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like why shouldn't I do it. But all these
things that got thrown at you, were always
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really valuable pieces of information on
how the system works. And you could work
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with that. And you could work your way
around it, you sometimes may pay a small
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legal fine or whatever, but you would be
fine. Obviously that was not true for our
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Vote-Auction project which cost us
enormous amounts of money, but it was
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worth it. So in about 2006 to 2008 I kind
of noticed, I started doing a project back
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then which was called super-enhanced and I
very much noticed that I was paying more
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and more attention to laws that were in
place, not that I was thinking that if I
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do this project now I would get into
trouble a, b, c and d but it was in the
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back of my head. Which is not really
helping when you're trying to freely
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create a new project or a thinking space,
you know? As it is now I feel that all
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these anti-terror-laws totally make us
come into this kind of cluster where we
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start self-censoring ourselves. Most of
all, you see that when you're on Facebook.
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And don't tell me you're not on Facebook,
obviously it's a bullshit platform but
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still its really interesting. The same is
true for twitter. I mean how many times
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will you say fuck on either of them.
You're not going to post that one picture
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of that naked butt or the bare-breasted
lady or whatever, because you're like "ok
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I have been using this account for a
really long time, I don't want to get
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turned off now, because I'm using imagery
now that might be not legal in the
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Facebook kind of sense". But this self
censorship is going on in your head. And
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it happens online. But as long as it
happens online it would be kind of fine,
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you know it's just Facebook. But this
creeps into offline life as well. I'm very
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sure and I have noticed that with lots of
people that the conversations you will
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have in real life will mirror the ones you
have online. Because you're getting used
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to this kind of speak, this Facebook speak
or twitter speak. And it just censors out
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lots of stuff. Our strategies in working
are mostly like affirmative. We're not the
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ones that use critical approaches, because
most of the time that's very boring. But
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we rather use affirmative techniques and
the other one, but then we figured we need
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to come up with a new strategy. And that's
when we started to do secret projects,
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because I was just getting really sick of
having this thought in my head all the
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time of self-censorship and whatever. So
we just started developing projects
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anonymously. But we can't publish them
under our own name which is kind of a bug
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but that's the way it is. That's enough
for a little theory in the beginning and I
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want to show you a little video of a
project that we did a few years ago and we
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did this project because this is like one
more thing i think it is really important.
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This is new speak, we all hear it all the
time. Like yesterday I read something on
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the news, it talked about a dark figure of
badgers in the forest. I figured, how can
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there be a dark figure of badgers in the
forest? Are these illegal badgers? Are
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these criminal badgers now? And what I
heard also a few years ago, it was
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Russian... deep sea... spider crabs that
were moving into Finnish you know sea
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space? And I figured you know, what they
don't have any identity on them or what...
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what's the problem? you know this, but
this new speak i mean obviously that's a
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lot true for you know all the enemy
combatant bullshit and so on. But this
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newspeak, it's really interesting if you
listen to it and it's a real problem if
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you just go along with it because it
alters your speech it alters your mind. So
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we did this project on oil and it's all
about this. I hope this is not too loud.
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music starts: Seven Nation Army by The
White Stripesapplause Where's my
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presentation? This video was based on a
marketing campaign by Diesel, it was
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called "Be Stupid". laughs I don't want
to add to that, but I'm sure some of you
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people in here have bought a Diesel
product. So be proud of yourself you are
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officially stupid. I was asked to also
present you know some projects that some
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of you might like really know but some of
them might not to give you more of a
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context of our work. So I'm going to
present Vote Auction. Vote Auction was a
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project we did in 2000 and we usually
produce seals for our projects, not logos
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because we're surely not dot com. If we're
anything we're an authority, so we need a
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seal, right? That gives you authority.
And, wait I need that. So it was in 2000,
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it was a platform for buying and selling
you know votes for the presidential
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election in 2000. Gore, yeah Gore against
Bush. You know the one that Bush didn't
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win but took home anyways. You're laughing
it's sad isn't it, but then maybe I mean
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so much good came out of it, so we should
be happy. It'd be a lot colder probably if
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Gore had one, right? He's all into the
climate shit and so on. So that was the
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website, we originally got it from this
American called James Baumgartner who was
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an art student in the states, and he
started doing this as a thesis project.
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But he got you know contacted by the FBI
and such pretty early on and he didn't
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want to pursue the idea any more. And Art
Mark who is now Yesman by now and sucks
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real bad now but was really good then um
brought him over to us and we took over
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and made it a bit bigger I guess. And yeah
well basically you could just you know
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sign up as a voter and just put your vote
on sale and as one would be interested in
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buying a vote you'd only be able to buy
the votes from a you know from a whole
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state to make it more easy. And the prices
of votes in different states varied a lot
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obviously, we had enormous amounts of
subscribers. I don't know precisely
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because we had a randomizing engine in the
back obviously. And um we got into serious
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trouble obviously with this project with
any kind of governmental agency. Any OGA
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in the states. And always made special
little websites for them with, you know
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just IP filtering and they get their own
websites and laughter I remember also
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the Germans were in there as well, I
remember Karlsruhe always contacted us on
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I mean the server on a Wednesday at about
11. And always searched through the same
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pages and it was really easy then I just,
you could just give them something they
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really liked as a website and that's just
some DOS software that would download in
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the background. And you know stuff like
that that really worked fine. I'm gonna
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show you a little video again, because we
got like this feature on CNN for the
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project, this is really bad quality
because it's from TV. I'm so sorry.
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TV intro music
TV presenter: In just two weeks the
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citizens of the United States will elect
their next commander-in-chief. But could
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that decision be rerouted over the
internet? A website engineered halfway
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around the world is offering to literally
buy your vote! Today on Burden of Proof:
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Bidding for ballots. Democracy on the
block.
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announcer: This is Burden of Proof.
lizvlx: Just need to interrupt here a few
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times. So this was on prime time US CNN.
This was right in the midst of the
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elections and we were really lucky that we
got so much news coverage. This was not
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because we are so awesome and doing
projects, this was because we just touched
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a topic that lots of journalists really
wanted to talk about, but they didn't have
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a specific issue. But if you present them
with a specific issue they have something
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to talk about. So they did. We got about
like I don't know how many people we
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reached about like 200 to 400 million
people. This was like really all over the
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place from, I don't know, you know, they
even discussed it in Russia in their
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parliament and so on. And we got our you
know service hacked, and yeah Chan and
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Reno who was then you know somebody was on
our... And we got sued by so many people
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for either, you know, false promise,
consumerism laws, or you know election
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fraud. I need to point out that obviously
it's perfectly legal to sell American
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votes in Europe.
laughter and applause
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But this is also why vote auction is a big
case in the - for lawyers all over the
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place. This was one of the first cases
where people really noticed: Oh internet
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and national law is just really bad
together, just don't mix, you know. And
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you know, they served us court papers onto
our Nokia communicators. Like faxes, like
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30 pages, which obviously doesn't fit on a
communicator. Or on the phone, you know. I
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need to serve this to you which is an- it
was ridiculous. But still, I mean they
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couldn't shut us down because we just had,
we obviously we were aware that if we kept
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on doing this project we would get you
know, people and authority would be
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getting more and more interested in us. So
we had just this you know- we bought new
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domains because it turned up the one
domain, so we put in the new domain which
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gives you a new news story. So that was
fine, in the end we were running on an IP
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address but it was all out there so it was
fine because we had the CNN coverage so
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there was no problem. So we had no terror
laws at the time so we were no terrorists,
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we're just doing voter fraud, right? So
this is, I mean we're obviously not doing
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it because we're just providing a
platform, I'm not responsible for any
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user. That's what dot coms is. You know
and you got to bring democracy and
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capitalism closer together, that's what we
were saying. Yeah wait, there I just see
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where is, where's where is he... he yeah
that's him. That was one of our first
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providers. TV presenter: Which along with
voteauction.com was named as a defendant
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in a lawsuit in Chicago. In Los Angeles
we're joined by internet law professor
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Stuart Beagle TV presenter 2: And in
Sacramento, California we're joined by...
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lizvlx: He is an asshole.
TV presenter 2: William Woods, chief
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counsel to the California secretary of
state, where I'm from. And here in
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Washington, Melissa Stratton,
constitutional law expert.
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lizvlx: That's my favorite picture. I mean
look at that, I mean for me that project
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is also a very complicated way to produce
like a video art. You do this whole
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project and then it gets filmed by CNN,
right? laughter and applause If you want
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to see more of the video, pretty much all
the videos are available on vimeo. If you
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go, you know look for the ubermorgen
channel. So because they'll go on for way
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too long because it's 45 minutes and we
don't have that much time. Do dee do de
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doo, more screenshots of the guys. Yeah
that's the lawsuits. laughter It's a
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paper- I started doing paper sculptures
then at the time because what are you
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supposed to do with it, right? And um,
it's very expensive you know. This is from
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a show we just did at carol fletcher
gallery in you know London. You know,
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Oxford Circus, high scale, good shit. But
obviously it's not so much fun at the time
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sometimes. But because I come from a
lawyer's family I cannot be bothered
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really. laughter
Now on to something completely different.
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This is EKMRZ trilogy, it obviously means
e-commerce. I don't like vowels
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apparently. And these are three projects.
It's called Google Will Eat Itself, Amazon
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Noir, and The Sound of Ebay. Google Will
Eat Itself, maybe some of you know. That's
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the seal again. Google release itself is
just a very easy scheme for, I don't know
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a problematic network maybe. It's just,
it's all about, we just bought into we
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just participated in the google ads
program and made money with that, and with
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the money we made we bought Google shares.
Hence Google Will Eat Itself, right? And
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we didn't do it on a huge big scale,
because we were not so interested in that
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any more after doing stuff like vote
auction. So we just did this more as a
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conceptual piece. I think at the scale
that we did it in uh it would have taken
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us like something like 300 million years
to buy the whole of Google. But then it
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gets, maybe it'll get like real cheap in
the meantime. So who knows, yeah? For this
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project also still no terror laws, then
that it wouldn't really be covered by that
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anyways. But of course nasty letters from
Google, and we got you know blocked on
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Google which is great, you know? I once
got disqualified from a conference, that
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was awesome. And then you know that one I
really like. But if you get a lawyer from
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Google, a lawyer's letter from Google
that's fine because we all know you can't
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talk to google, right? There's no phone
number, you know? You can have, you can
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know someone who works at google. But
officially you can't talk to them. So
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there's nothing they can do to you really
because they can only send letters, but
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not react again because they don't want to
be bothered. So that's fine, so you can
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just make a new story out of it. But we
closed the project. We made about I think
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like 400˙000€ and it's still sitting
there. It's in a kind of a fun thing and
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it's Google to the people. But it's not
doing anything, because money shouldn't be
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doing anything. The next one was Amazon
Noir which was basically just using the
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look inside the book function of Amazon to
download the whole books. Just search for
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lots of terms and then recombine the book.
They look quite measly afterwards but it's
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all about the content, who cares? And that
project got kind of interpreted as if we
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were focusing on free books and all that
and information for all and we're not
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interested in, we're not activists. I'm
maybe an actionist but I'm not an
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activist. So I don't have a political
agenda. I don't say that this is good or
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this is bad. I just might find some things
interesting. And so we sold the software
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to Amazon because they didn't like it
obviously. So we sold this software to
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Amazon in the end and made some money with
that. laughter and applause
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And last one of that trilogy is called The
Sound of Ebay, and I just really wanted to
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do a project with teletext imagery because
teletext is just so great. And my mom
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still uses it and. But then my mom used to
be a programmer so that's, I guess that
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explains it. So basically it just, this is
a lyrical project. It makes the music with
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your user data. And I'm not gonna play the
music, but I'm gonna show the images
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because i love them so much. I mean it's
just the best parts of teletext obviously,
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I got there's like this, there's one
person who won't talk to me anymore after
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I've done that because she thinks it's
porn. laughter
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It's really pixels I mean come on. If you
see porn in this shit you're sick. I mean
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seriously.
laughter and applause
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I'm gonna jump through that because
there's not enough time I think. Oh maybe,
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no we got... There's another set of
projects I... we did. This is actually the
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ones I like doing most because this is
where I get to do some coding. I love
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doing coding in Perl and I will never code
in anything else I think. And we don't
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need that ruby shit. And basically this is
also yeah this is the... from IP-NIC. We
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learned, with vote auction we learned how
important the seal is, right? Because we
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got all these legal letters with lots of
seals right? Texas, Internet Attorney, and
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shit like that. And so we got our own seal
with the Internet Partnership for No
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Internet Content. Also sometimes we will
get asked by you know, different...
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entities, companies and whatever like you
know you do fake banners and shit like
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that and I wanna. They want you to take it
offline and usually when you talk to big
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companies and you want them to do
something they tell you: Um I'm not sure,
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I'm not the right person to talk to. They
just send you to someone else and never
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get solved. So we just mirrored that. And
so whenever someone asks us to take some
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information off our servers, I say you
know, you need to speak to a different
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department. And because that's real
complicated I made this form. And it's the
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universal content and/or domain removal
form. It's very complicated, this was not
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what it was in the beginning. And it was
you know it's like when you transfer a
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domain. It's hard, right? You need to sign
all that and fax it and not with all of
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them, but some of them. And you just need
to put lots of bureaucratic barriers in
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there, right? You still got to think you
really want to get the shit solved, right?
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You do. But there's just so much paperwork
that you got to fill out. Not you but the
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other people who want to get the stuff
offline. And all the departments... The
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shit never gets solved. And then I coded
it and basically it just works like that
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you can just put in any domain and it just
creates a legal document and that you it's
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fine you know we have so many the wording
is just fine. And like a preliminary, you
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know injunction or whatever and then you
just send it out. We didn't automize it,
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because we didn't want to be the ones to
blame in the end again. We figured the
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user can send it out by themselves, you
know? We're not going to be the clowns,
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yeah? And take on your own responsibility,
right? And you just send it out, and if
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you have a legal document where it says
you know this domain I don't know i'm so
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cool dot com is supposed to be taken
offline, because they're engaging in child
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pornography. I guess lots of providers
will take it offline, in the beginning not
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to do anything wrong. So this worked
really well and it's... again I think it's
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important to use stuff that comes back to
you. In form of legal papers in this
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context, to make something else out of it.
And also it just cuts out the middleman
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again. You don't need a lawyer, you don't
need a court, you just need your own court
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papers and that's fine. The next one I did
was the Bank Statement Generator. It's a
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weird account statement, and it's a
generator that works like that, you just
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enter a starting figure and you pretty
much and you enter some other shit and
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your name and blah and so on. And then you
enter how you want to feel when you get
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the statement. You know, pretty much
everyone has the same deductions right?
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You go to H&M and you do some Amazon and
so on. And yeah I don't think you can ever
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really get high numbers but you know you
just from suicidal to total mania that's
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what you can kind of decide for yourself,
how you want to feel. I got that because
264
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we were really broke at the time and I
remember I was sitting at home I got open
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letters and one letter from the bank and
it said like oh you're in debt. And I felt
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really bad. And then I figured why am I
feeling bad because of ink on paper? This
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is really crazy, and it's um it's so this
is always what I say: This is just pixels
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on screen and the other one's just ink on
paper. Especially because we're not
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talking about personal letters, we're
talking about letters, they get sent out
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by servers that are signed by people. You
can't talk to a person about them. So
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they're not a letter, that's not what
constitutes a letter. This is fucking
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newspeak. So if you react to anything that
gets sent to you by a server with an
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emotional reaction, something's wrong with
you, you know?
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applause
So this is, I put this in here because my
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daughter really really loves it. It's
Clickistan. Clickistan, I put it also, put
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it in there because we developed this
project for the Whitney Museum of American
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Art. And it was a bit of a hassle, it's
Clickistan so it's like a Javascript click
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game. And I just used lots of stuff that I
already had and you know Javascripted it
279
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around, it's all weird and stuff. But we
couldn't release it right away because
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they were concerned about the wording. And
they were concerned about the words. I
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couldn't use the words muslim,
fundamentalist, and terror. And I had not,
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I had not put them in any special you know
context, these words. Like, there was this
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one screen where it said are you allergic
vegan muslim or i don't know whatever. And
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you just, and it's clearly not a political
project but there was no way they would
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release the project with these words in
it. So I figured okay I don't... I'm
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really bad with getting censored, so
that's not cool. So I proposed to them, if
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it were okay with them if we just took
these words out and instead put in the
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word you know variations of the word
censor. And they were like oh that's fine.
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laughter
I thought "no not really, but I'll go
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ahead." So that's yeah it was fucking
crazy. I'll show you the video, it's an
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online game but you're not gonna play it
now. But you can watch the video.
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repeated mouse clicks
chiptune music
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applause
Okay. Well this is like a small project we
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did, I don't know it feels like at least
10 years ago. And this is what we call a
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web painting. Basically, I mean you can
read a bit for yourself.
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laughter and applause
We just took the text and pretty much
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everything else from a website called Iris
scan obviously. And just, just exchanged
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the words, to make the content and the
message a bit more clear I guess. We have
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not used this in a performative way yet,
but if we could ever find a pardon to do
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that I would gladly set it up on, you know
I don't know, a conference you know? An
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airport? And just see you know if people
are gonna participate. You know it's just
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a small moment. You can go to your own
private room if you want to. By the way
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00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:57,059
that's what you call uh affirmative
approach, right? Versus critical... And
304
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Alanohof, the alano ranch. That's... this
is this really small project we did a few
305
00:35:03,490 --> 00:35:13,320
years ago. It's just a regular fake site,
right? And it's about this fake farm into
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00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:25,200
role that produces organic meat from these
hounds. It's all very well and we just
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produced it for this small you know
cultural association, a club in Tirol. And
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she said can you do something that will
you know give us our you know a title page
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on our you know tyrolean newspaper? And I
mean that's, it's easy it's fun. But it's
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really just a fun project, right? We got
into so much trouble because of this
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project.
applause
312
00:35:52,970 --> 00:35:57,530
We have you know like we had five
different times and you were there right
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00:35:57,530 --> 00:36:01,970
we had police standing in front of our
doors at home right? It's like Sunday
314
00:36:01,970 --> 00:36:07,320
evening, it's Sunday evening I'm by myself
because my partner just went to Sofia for
315
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:13,250
whatever he always does there. And you
know, knock on the door and it's these two
316
00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:17,020
police guys they're like oh mumbles I
like look at them, go like you're not here
317
00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:21,990
for Alano, are you? And they're like:
yeah. And I'm like, what the hell? You
318
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:25,430
know it's been like, four years since we
did the project and they're still coming.
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00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:32,350
I don't know it's because of the dogs you
know don't do anything. It's not a cat,
320
00:36:32,350 --> 00:36:41,941
you know? We know don't... laughter and
applause I don't understand that, don't
321
00:36:41,941 --> 00:36:46,440
say anything mean about cats on the
internet, yeah. laughter We all bow our
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00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,880
heads to the gods, right? But now
basically it was also a newspaper that got
323
00:36:51,880 --> 00:37:00,600
behind it and there was some you know dog
hating forum that totally loved the site.
324
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But I mean seriously, I mean they made
police people drive to the About address
325
00:37:05,590 --> 00:37:11,050
we put on the on the website. And drive
there and there was like this local police
326
00:37:11,050 --> 00:37:15,510
guy who knew up front that there was no
farm there. And we read all the card
327
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:19,370
papers and so on it says like oh i went
there and there's no farm and no one
328
00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:28,210
around knows it. We had... but the thing
was we had to pay money for that because
329
00:37:28,210 --> 00:37:36,530
there was no imprint on the website in the
beginning. And this is actually you
330
00:37:36,530 --> 00:37:41,820
know... this was not a problem early on
because basically this means I mean this
331
00:37:41,820 --> 00:37:45,780
is a, it's a fake site, you know? If
police contact you and you're like no
332
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:48,980
we're artists, this is a fake side they're
like fine. And the first two police people
333
00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:52,230
that contacted us, they were also okay
that's fine yeah. Actually it's
334
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:59,010
interesting kind of a book and so on. But
you know laws change over time. And now,
335
00:37:59,010 --> 00:38:02,370
you know they really made us put an
imprint in there, otherwise you know we
336
00:38:02,370 --> 00:38:05,540
could have you know paid as much as
20˙000€. And they were like if you put the
337
00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:10,901
imprint in now, you only pay like 200. And
we're like we're not paying 20˙000€ for a
338
00:38:10,901 --> 00:38:16,040
freaking dog, obviously not. For you know
we paid more than 20˙000€ for you know
339
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,930
doing the whole vote auction bullshit, but
not for a dog, you know? So that's all you
340
00:38:20,930 --> 00:38:28,430
know, judicial stuff you know? See? It's a
yeah "Tötung von gesunden Hunden", killing
341
00:38:28,430 --> 00:38:36,260
you know healthy dogs. We should have put
up that we're only killing sick dogs.
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00:38:36,260 --> 00:38:47,560
laughter Mea culpa, yeah. So now on to
something a lot more serious. This is a
343
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,220
project that's very close to my heart.
It's called Superenhanced. And started
344
00:38:51,220 --> 00:38:55,970
doing this in about 2006 to 2008. And
actually I want to, this is important for
345
00:38:55,970 --> 00:38:59,230
me for various reasons. Also because of
the talk that's going on right now
346
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obviously all the time. We're all being
listened to and so on and I don't
347
00:39:04,861 --> 00:39:11,050
understand how anyone could not have known
that. I seriously don't. Because we all
348
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know that anything that's technically
possible will be done. We know that from
349
00:39:14,970 --> 00:39:19,390
ourselves, even if it's only very often
only very little because we're technical
350
00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:27,740
incapable, yeah? But there was something
else on the agenda and that was you know
351
00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:35,580
the issues of enhanced interrogation,
Torture Taxis, super max prisons in the
352
00:39:35,580 --> 00:39:41,500
states. And I personally don't really
understand, I mean I do understand, but I
353
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:47,720
still don't understand why there's this
huge uproar now about you know the NSA
354
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:51,920
bullshit, but there was never any of that
big upper already really got to people
355
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,700
being imprisoned. And this is also you
know, this is where real terror laws
356
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:06,890
started happening, right? And this is and,
no nothing. I didn't hear anything and we
357
00:40:06,890 --> 00:40:12,280
did this project. And one part of the
project is a this is just image material
358
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from our research. I did like half a year
of research on this project. And then I
359
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programmed the Superenhanced generator
together with a friend of mine. And it's
360
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basically an interrogation software.
Because it's always the problem in
361
00:40:29,790 --> 00:40:36,790
interrogations who's to fucking blame if
anything goes wrong? So we did a software,
362
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:40,220
so the software is to blame, right? So you
can only follow your orders, and
363
00:40:40,220 --> 00:40:49,930
everything it's fine. So basically it just
runs you through and if you don't answer
364
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properly you get into trouble. So that's
not fun, I know, I'm so sorry. We used
365
00:40:59,770 --> 00:41:07,220
this in a few performances, in Palestine I
think. Yeah that's right we went to Israel
366
00:41:07,220 --> 00:41:11,280
and went to Palestine and I really gotta
say the one, the performance in Israel
367
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:18,190
didn't work out. Because the people we got
as volunteers, they just totally fucking
368
00:41:18,190 --> 00:41:21,360
chickened out. I mean it was really just
like you know, what do you do in the
369
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,490
beginning? Like you throw a bit of water
into people's faces or whatever? As an
370
00:41:26,490 --> 00:41:29,570
enhancement rate and they're just
chickened out. Versus the people in
371
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Ramallah they were fine because they were
all really experienced. laughter No
372
00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:39,210
seriously there was a hundred percent of
all the people that were you know there
373
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for our talk had experience in being
detained. I mean really detained, not
374
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just, you know? And about 50% had been
more than once. So this is the system
375
00:41:50,380 --> 00:42:02,140
graph of the generator. And more images,
sorry to spoil your party. And, wait...
376
00:42:02,140 --> 00:42:09,619
We're looking for a specific image. Oh
that's, if you want to read a good book
377
00:42:09,619 --> 00:42:17,240
this is really close to my heart now. Read
this book by Murad Kurnaz. Just read it.
378
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:22,310
It might not be a nice christmas present
but use it for easter time somebody got
379
00:42:22,310 --> 00:42:33,460
nailed on a cross there. so that's fine
applause We worked together with this
380
00:42:33,460 --> 00:42:39,350
guy, Chris Arendt who was a guard in
Guantanamo. And he lived with us for two
381
00:42:39,350 --> 00:42:43,760
months. You know, so we could do more
research and talk and block. Get the
382
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:49,950
hands-on approach, that's what we like.
And he's kind of okay now. He was in a
383
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:54,730
really bad state then. But I don't feel
bad for him because I feel bad for the
384
00:42:54,730 --> 00:43:00,330
victim not for the perpetrator. I'm sorry
Chris, he knows that. That's a set of
385
00:43:00,330 --> 00:43:11,050
photographs we did with our kids. People
find it offensive. Billy always laughs
386
00:43:11,050 --> 00:43:20,020
about it, right? Stop laughing Billy.
That's her little sister Lola. That's, we
387
00:43:20,020 --> 00:43:28,230
don't need that. That's a grown-up person.
And that's a funny thing too. I mean,
388
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:34,310
these pictures I found on the back up of
my iPhone and I had never seen those
389
00:43:34,310 --> 00:43:39,070
pictures before. I had not, I mean I know
my research, I had not seen those pictures
390
00:43:39,070 --> 00:43:44,000
before. And when I had to you know sift
through my backup I found all these
391
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,790
pictures of Guantanamo courtrooms. I found
that really strange, but it was very you
392
00:43:49,790 --> 00:43:57,430
know helpful. So this is, there's more to
show obviously, but there's not so much
393
00:43:57,430 --> 00:44:04,060
time. There's just like one thing I want
to say before we kind of end this and
394
00:44:04,060 --> 00:44:10,750
it's: If we always talk about these issues
now of privacy and so on, please bear in
395
00:44:10,750 --> 00:44:16,060
mind that this is a first world problem.
The southern hemisphere does not suffer
396
00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:20,540
from you know being spied on all the time.
They suffer from not getting any fucking
397
00:44:20,540 --> 00:44:28,620
attention. So just bear that in mind, that
it's kind of a luxury problem that needs
398
00:44:28,620 --> 00:44:38,640
to be discussed obviously. Second forget
crypto because crypto is elitist. I'm not
399
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,480
saying don't do it at all obviously, it's
something that yorman(?) has to pursue.
400
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,990
But if you try to find a solution for the
situation now it's not going to be crypto
401
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:55,500
because nobody can fucking use it.
inaudible interjection Okay? And then,
402
00:44:55,500 --> 00:45:00,860
to all these engineers of the internet,
all the sysadmins with so much power and
403
00:45:00,860 --> 00:45:04,990
lots of, you know, intelligence very
often, lots of brain, but so little
404
00:45:04,990 --> 00:45:13,890
education. So you know, so little amount
of books have you ever read. So little
405
00:45:13,890 --> 00:45:18,520
knowledge and so much responsibility.
Please, read a book. Read a motherfucking
406
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:29,810
book. I just applause Maybe not the
"Allgemeinbildung for dummies" that I just
407
00:45:29,810 --> 00:45:37,950
saw on the train last week, but something
like that, okay? We need to close now, I
408
00:45:37,950 --> 00:45:43,000
mean we were running a bit late with
starting it, but how much more time do we
409
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:48,920
have? Yeah so um I'd rather stop now and
we have time for some Q&A, what do you
410
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,830
think about that? I'm not going to run a
vote on it.
411
00:45:54,830 --> 00:46:05,220
Herald: Okay for any question there is...
just cue on the microphones in the room.
412
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:13,910
Question: Hi...?
lizvlx: Hi!
413
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:22,480
Q: Okay hi, you seem to like confrontation
so mine is what's your point?
414
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:27,830
applause
lizvlx: You just asked me again, do you
415
00:46:27,830 --> 00:46:34,040
think that's funny? That's the same
question again. There's no point in a
416
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,990
confrontation. I'm not the confrontation
the fucking terror law is the
417
00:46:37,990 --> 00:46:42,740
confrontation. I'm just mirroring that
shit. If you got a problem with that, then
418
00:46:42,740 --> 00:46:46,950
you're not doing anything. And you don't
need to do anything i'm not telling you
419
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:51,630
what to do what, not at all you know. I'm
just doing the stuff that I think makes my
420
00:46:51,630 --> 00:46:56,280
life more enjoyable.
Herald: Number two.
421
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:04,090
Q: Hi, I wasn't going to say anything but
the last few words provoked me. On behalf
422
00:47:04,090 --> 00:47:11,090
of people that I know who don't live in
the first world, surveillance is a
423
00:47:11,090 --> 00:47:14,560
problem. And if you think that it isn't,
you're wrong. sporadic clapping
424
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:22,220
lizvlx: Well I spend lots of time in
Africa and Near East. Most of all in
425
00:47:22,220 --> 00:47:27,390
Africa. And I know surveillance is not an
issue in a slum. It's just not, because
426
00:47:27,390 --> 00:47:31,609
nobody even knows that you're alive. So
you cannot be surveilled. No, they really
427
00:47:31,609 --> 00:47:38,770
have issues of visibility. And I know
intellectually, of course. And so on, yes
428
00:47:38,770 --> 00:47:44,110
I know where you're coming from. But
still, I mean. I don't know how many times
429
00:47:44,110 --> 00:47:49,240
you're in Africa, but last time I checked,
not really, no I.
430
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:54,100
Q: I don't work in Africa, I work in the
Americas, but um I think it's a good point
431
00:47:54,100 --> 00:48:00,360
for a discussion but i don't think that
it's helpful to state to make a broad
432
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:07,740
statement like that in this kind of
environment where you have this stage. And
433
00:48:07,740 --> 00:48:13,060
we certainly would really like to talk to
you more about that. Because it's not good
434
00:48:13,060 --> 00:48:18,710
to say. It's not like internet
surveillance is not necessarily a problem.
435
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:21,560
But surveillance is a problem. On the
street, surveillance is a problem, having
436
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,230
people outside of your house watching you
24 hours a day is a problem.
437
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:30,290
lizvlx: No we don't want to, that's not
what I mean, obviously. Surveillance it's
438
00:48:30,290 --> 00:48:35,000
not a problem it's just ugly bullshit that
no one needs. It's just idiotic, you know?
439
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:40,130
It just makes sense and it no obviously.
But there is no street surveillance in
440
00:48:40,130 --> 00:48:45,330
most of Africa, you know? So it's not it's
a different world there and I just want
441
00:48:45,330 --> 00:48:47,560
you...
Q: Well not the first world is bigger than
442
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,180
Africa as well, you said the southern
hemisphere...
443
00:48:49,180 --> 00:48:53,619
lizvlx: Well we yeah we I get to a point,
but I was making a different point.
444
00:48:53,619 --> 00:48:56,600
Q: Okay.
Herald: Back to one.
445
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,600
Q: Hello? You talked about uh self-
censorship.
446
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,250
lizvlx: Yeah.
Q: Is there a connection to pure
447
00:49:03,250 --> 00:49:09,120
reflection, and... between self-censorship
and reflection so what is reflection to
448
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,670
you, and what is self-censorship?
lizvlx: Well, especially when it comes to
449
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:18,380
Facebook you know, right when you type in
your message it already gets recorded.
450
00:49:18,380 --> 00:49:23,970
Even if you delete it, right? So that's
right the case of you're just self-
451
00:49:23,970 --> 00:49:30,369
reflecting. But they get it then you self-
censor yourself and then still... So it's
452
00:49:30,369 --> 00:49:33,720
because it gets all very fuzzy I think.
And I think the fuzziness is kind of an
453
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:38,240
issue right there. Because if you just
censor yourself because you don't want to
454
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,140
say that that's fine. But if you don't
want to say it because of some other
455
00:49:42,140 --> 00:49:48,570
implications that will happen that are
fucking crazy, then you have a real issue,
456
00:49:48,570 --> 00:49:50,570
I think.
Q: Thank you.
457
00:49:50,570 --> 00:49:53,650
lizvlx: welcome
Herald: Three now.
458
00:49:53,650 --> 00:49:57,690
Q: Yeah um
lizvlx: hi:
459
00:49:57,690 --> 00:50:02,160
Q: I see art as being something on the
fringe and I think that's what you're
460
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:07,130
doing. But I'm interested in what you,
what you think will happen when this will
461
00:50:07,130 --> 00:50:11,859
get internalized. I think you see my
point. So you know, art is always
462
00:50:11,859 --> 00:50:16,680
something like exploratory, something kind
of out there. And eventually it becomes
463
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,040
mainstream. I mean it takes time, but it
will become mainstream. So what do you
464
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,330
think will happen when this becomes
mainstream?
465
00:50:22,330 --> 00:50:27,440
lizvlx: Well I only know, I mean, I see
lots of our work in the context of
466
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:33,150
Viennese Actionism and you know that was
in the 60s when it just smeared each other
467
00:50:33,150 --> 00:50:37,210
up with you know any kind of body fluids
and so on. And that's still not really
468
00:50:37,210 --> 00:50:42,480
mainstream in a way. So I can't go back to
any historical parallel really.
469
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,260
Q: I don't think there's any historical
parallel. I think this is always new.
470
00:50:46,260 --> 00:50:49,750
lizvlx: But I guess it just in a way it
becomes more mainstream because it gets
471
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:54,880
old, you know? It's like an old computer
with the old website, for example.
472
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,240
Q: So it never really gets internalized in
a certain sense?
473
00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,869
lizvlx: It might not, which I really like,
yeah.
474
00:50:59,869 --> 00:51:04,119
Q: Weird stuff, thanks.
lizvlx: Yeah, you're welcome. good
475
00:51:04,119 --> 00:51:06,119
question!
Herald: There is time for one last
476
00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:08,200
question, which is to the guy in the
microphone one.
477
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,390
Q: Hi I have a follow-up.
lizvlx: hey
478
00:51:11,390 --> 00:51:17,070
Q: The first thing is concerning the
surveillance in the first world. I mean if
479
00:51:17,070 --> 00:51:22,880
you're in Africa often too, or often. I
mean how many people there have mobile
480
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:28,700
phones and will have in the next years and
what will they do with it. That's actually
481
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:34,240
my question and i think that's why i don't
think this first world third world thing i
482
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:38,420
don't think that works at all. Because our
aim is to make one world, and in this one
483
00:51:38,420 --> 00:51:44,750
world we all will have this problem. And
the second question is how does like
484
00:51:44,750 --> 00:51:50,270
animal rights law abuse how does that
somehow refer to anti-terrorist laws.
485
00:51:50,270 --> 00:51:58,610
lizvlx: Well okay first question. Lots of
people have phones in Africa. Extremely,
486
00:51:58,610 --> 00:52:01,610
an enormous amount. Because they use it
for payment. They don't use it for
487
00:52:01,610 --> 00:52:04,990
internet surfing. Because that's not
possible. So it's a totally different
488
00:52:04,990 --> 00:52:09,900
usage. So surveillance comes in from a
totally different aspect. So you can't
489
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:14,710
make these people profiles out of their
behavior. It's just a really different
490
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:19,790
world. If you want to make it one world
that's great, but it's not there yet. So
491
00:52:19,790 --> 00:52:26,510
it doesn't make sense I think to impose
our first world scenarios onto theirs.
492
00:52:26,510 --> 00:52:30,490
Because it's not the situation yet, you
know? But at least that's also what i get
493
00:52:30,490 --> 00:52:36,560
from you know talking to people from
Africa. That's one thing and the second
494
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,990
one, how does that correlate with
antiterrorist? Because it doesn't matter
495
00:52:39,990 --> 00:52:43,859
to them any more. Because if they want to
take your website offline or whatever
496
00:52:43,859 --> 00:52:49,200
you're doing they want to stop it, they
will find some kind of aspect in any kind
497
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:54,080
of law business, they'll find and then
they'll get at you. And also I mean
498
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:58,540
obviously when it comes to animal rights,
you're quite quickly in a terrorist scheme
499
00:52:58,540 --> 00:53:04,740
because it's like the anti-organized
crime. There was quite a bunch of
500
00:53:04,740 --> 00:53:11,000
activists incarcerated in Austria because
of animal rights activism. So actually
501
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,210
that's really close together. What you
wouldn't think but it actually is by now.
502
00:53:15,210 --> 00:53:22,410
Um we have yeah if you can we have a 30
seconds question from the Signal guy up
503
00:53:22,410 --> 00:53:25,200
there.
Signal Angel: That's fine so we had a lot
504
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:32,440
of questions on IRC on why did you put
your daughter on stage? laughter
505
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:41,701
lizvlx: Why is my daughter on stage?
Because she likes being with me. Yeah it's
506
00:53:41,701 --> 00:53:46,180
very easy. It's a family business
situation. I asked her if she wanted to be
507
00:53:46,180 --> 00:53:50,220
in the audience or up on stage with me
she's opted for the stage version.