0:00:00.955,0:00:04.885
[dramatic music]
0:00:05.081,0:00:07.421
Deep beneath the West Australian outback
0:00:07.498,0:00:10.125
lies the germ of an idea.
0:00:10.795,0:00:13.723
A dream about [br]making the world a safer place
0:00:13.723,0:00:16.822
that's gone beyond just the dreaming.
0:00:16.822,0:00:21.737
(man) "We have a very specific goal,[br]dispose of nuclear wastes,
0:00:21.737,0:00:24.457
pull out the nuclear weapons[br]and get them out of the way."
0:00:27.207,0:00:31.733
Jim Voss envisages a catacomb[br]500 metres beneath his feet
0:00:31.733,0:00:33.818
that would keep safe forever
0:00:33.818,0:00:37.348
one of the most toxic poisons[br]known to humankind.
0:00:37.548,0:00:39.467
(Voss) "Australia has the opportunity
0:00:39.467,0:00:41.651
to use its democratic forces
0:00:41.651,0:00:44.556
to say this is something[br]we should be doing for the world.
0:00:44.841,0:00:46.126
[alarm blaring]
0:00:46.126,0:00:49.584
For half a century,[br]the problem of nuclear waste disposal
0:00:49.584,0:00:53.460
has dogged the world,[br]and one company called Pangea,
0:00:53.460,0:00:57.742
backed by big money and influence,[br]wants to bury it in Australia.
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You'll find a great deal [br]of enthusiasm in the United States,
0:01:01.196,0:01:03.336
and I suspect around the world.
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They have backing from incredible people[br]within government and industry.
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(ad) To make the world a safer place[br]for the people we love...
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Tonight, Four Corners[br]goes inside the company called Pangea.
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We examine a scheme[br]that's provoked accusations of secrecy
0:01:19.754,0:01:21.913
and back-door influence peddling,
0:01:22.363,0:01:24.582
a scheme that forces Australia
0:01:24.582,0:01:27.615
to confront its role[br]in the nuclear world.
0:01:27.615,0:01:31.817
(ad) Australia will make[br]our world a safer place
0:01:32.577,0:01:35.030
We're not interested in nuclear power
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and we're not interested in being[br]the world's nuclear waste dump.
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♪ (music) ♪
0:01:47.001,0:01:50.619
(Voss) We're just headed out[br]here into the desert.
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(man) What you're looking for, [br]of course
0:01:54.457,0:01:57.821
is the most remote areas [br]you can find, right?"
0:01:58.611,0:01:59.963
(Voss) Well, in part.
0:01:59.963,0:02:04.518
The geology is far more important [br]than the remoteness.
0:02:05.358,0:02:08.800
Pangea's Jim Voss [br]and scientist Charles McCombie
0:02:08.800,0:02:10.903
took Four Corners on the long trip [br]
0:02:10.903,0:02:15.368
from Perth, 340 kilometres[br]north east of Kalgoorlie,
0:02:15.598,0:02:18.344
to the edge of the Great Victoria Desert.
0:02:19.094,0:02:22.780
(McCombie) The flatness, even more [br]important than how it looks on the surface
0:02:22.780,0:02:25.181
if you look out at the horizon [br]it's all very flat.
0:02:25.181,0:02:29.098
This is one of the flattest areas[br]in the world and that's a real key issue
0:02:29.098,0:02:31.959
to the– what we call a high isolation site
0:02:31.959,0:02:34.382
(helicopter blades whirring)
0:02:34.382,0:02:38.830
Latitude 28 south, longitude 123 east.
0:02:38.830,0:02:42.913
(whirring continues)
0:02:42.913,0:02:45.704
Out in this area [br]the size of Western Europe
0:02:45.704,0:02:48.603
lies a patch of ground [br]20 kilometres square
0:02:48.603,0:02:52.753
that they believe could house [br]a repository for up to 20 percent
0:02:52.753,0:02:55.012
of the world's nuclear waste.
0:02:57.152,0:03:02.116
Out here you find pangea rock -- [br]very old, very stable --
0:03:02.116,0:03:05.532
the geology from which [br]the company gets its name.
0:03:06.072,0:03:09.180
(McCombie) And in the basin area[br]and where we're on the edge now,
0:03:09.180,0:03:13.946
it's 300 to 800 million years [br]of quiet build-up of sediments.
0:03:14.722,0:03:18.027
So this is one of the most [br]stable geological areas
0:03:18.027,0:03:20.094
that you'll find in the world.
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But it's not just science. [br]Politics are just as crucial
0:03:24.578,0:03:27.842
in dealing with radioactive waste [br]and nuclear disarmament
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and that's what makes Australia [br]more attractive than Argentina,
0:03:31.605,0:03:35.688
Namibia, and China, [br]where pangea rock is also found.
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(Voss) Well, it's the political stability[br]that we're concerned about.
0:03:39.220,0:03:42.952
Australia's tradition [br]in democratic principles,
0:03:42.952,0:03:47.351
Australia's environmental activism [br]is vital to us. Australia's role
0:03:47.351,0:03:51.549
in the international community [br]for disarmament for all sorts of weapons
0:03:51.549,0:03:57.197
nuclear, land mines, chemical weapons,[br]very important facets to us for Australia
0:03:59.087,0:04:02.846
Behind Pangea stand [br]three international organisations.
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The huge British government-owned [br]nuclear conglomerate, BNFL
0:04:08.554,0:04:12.509
British Nuclear Fuels Limited, [br]which owns 80 percent
0:04:13.799,0:04:16.841
a Canadian company [br]called Golder Associates
0:04:16.841,0:04:19.623
world experts in toxic waste management
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and Nagra, a Swiss organisation [br]responsible for finding
0:04:24.755,0:04:28.720
a nuclear waste dump[br]for Switzerland's nuclear industry.
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(advertisement) The simple fact [br]is that more than 30 countries
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use nuclear power.
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Pangea originally planned [br]to launch its scheme on Australians
0:04:39.201,0:04:44.082
last month, with a 9 million dollar[br]war chest for advertising and promoting
0:04:44.082,0:04:47.530
a scheme it knew would meet [br]an incredulous public
0:04:47.530,0:04:49.259
and skeptical politicians.
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Those plans fell apart in December[br]last year, when the British arm
0:04:55.260,0:04:57.678
of Friends Of The Earth [br]got hold of the video
0:04:57.678,0:05:01.075
Pangea prepared for the launch [br]and sent it to Australia.
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(Pangea promotional video) Above all, [br]Pangea will provide the world
0:05:05.692,0:05:09.191
with a safe solution [br]to the disposal of nuclear materials.
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(man) Oh, it arrived in [br]an unmarked brown envelope
0:05:13.156,0:05:17.754
on my desk, and I had no idea [br]where it came from. I felt that this
0:05:17.754,0:05:26.234
should not be sprung on Australians in a[br]kind of hole-in-the-wall secret underhand way
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but they should learn as soon as possible [br]what was being planned for them.
0:05:33.293,0:05:34.865
(Pangea promotional video)[br]Before any responsible country
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would send their waste for disposal, [br]they must be certain
0:05:38.547,0:05:43.745
not only that the respository is safe, [br]but also that its safety must be seen
0:05:43.745,0:05:46.728
to be clearly and rigorously regulated.
0:05:46.728,0:05:53.359
(Voss) We were of course, disappointed. [br]It was our intention to roll Pangea out
0:05:53.359,0:05:59.640
in a very public and planned manner,[br]to give everybody an opportunity to debate.
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(woman) "My question is to [br]Senator Minchin, Minister for Resources -"
0:06:04.387,0:06:08.537
The response to the video was immediate. [br]Opponents were appalled
0:06:08.537,0:06:11.818
at the idea of a nuclear dumping ground.
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(woman) " ... Will he rule out completely [br]any involvement of his government
0:06:15.678,0:06:19.566
in setting up an international nuclear [br]waste repository in Australia?"
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The Federal Government [br]moved to distance itself.
0:06:23.281,0:06:26.823
(Senator Minchin) "And the Government[br]has absolutely no intention of accepting
0:06:26.823,0:06:29.679
the radioactive waste of other countries.[br]The policy is clear - "
0:06:29.679,0:06:33.145
In the following months, [br]the Industry and Resources Minister's line
0:06:33.145,0:06:34.844
has hardened.
0:06:34.844,0:06:37.798
(Senator Minchin) "There may be [br]other countries that
0:06:37.798,0:06:41.192
in far less fortuitous [br]economic circumstances than Australia
0:06:41.192,0:06:45.307
that do decide they want to accept [br]international nuclear waste.
0:06:45.307,0:06:48.941
Well that's their business, [br]and that may be one way
0:06:48.941,0:06:51.988
in which those countries [br]with a waste problem deal with it.
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But Australia won't be that nation [br]that accepts the waste."
0:06:56.784,0:07:01.435
But Pangea's plans for the outback [br]are a reminder of Australia's part
0:07:01.435,0:07:04.649
in the nuclear world:[br]an exporter of uranium,
0:07:04.649,0:07:09.666
part of the American nuclear umbrella [br]and a leading advocate of disarmament.
0:07:11.106,0:07:14.198
What Pangea is doing [br]is putting together a growing network
0:07:14.198,0:07:17.022
of international [br]and Australian businessmen,
0:07:17.022,0:07:21.995
scientists and policy makers who believe [br]that Australia should also have a role
0:07:21.995,0:07:26.443
to play in resolving one of the [br]nuclear age's most pressing problems:
0:07:26.443,0:07:30.125
what to do with the stockpiles [br]of nuclear waste
0:07:30.125,0:07:33.124
that have been growing now [br]for half a century.
0:07:33.124,0:07:37.423
It's a debate they say [br]that Australia has to have
0:07:37.423,0:07:42.488
one that can't be dodged forever,[br]and one upon which Australians themselves
0:07:42.488,0:07:44.854
will eventually have to take a stand.
0:07:45.404,0:07:49.365
(indistinct lecturing)
0:07:49.365,0:07:53.386
Amongst those who believe Australia [br]should play a role is the president
0:07:53.386,0:07:57.667
of the Australian Academy of Science [br]who's personally backing Pangea
0:07:57.667,0:08:00.299
and will sit on [br]its scientific review panel.
0:08:00.919,0:08:06.380
(professor) "I think it is important [br]that they engage the Australian public
0:08:06.380,0:08:12.845
and engage the Australian public's [br]representatives, namely the politicians
0:08:12.845,0:08:18.510
so that the politicians get [br]as clear a view as it's possible to get
0:08:18.510,0:08:23.981
of what the proposal's really about. [br]The existence of nuclear waste
0:08:23.981,0:08:28.956
is a world problem and Australia [br]in this respect is part of the world
0:08:28.956,0:08:36.121
and if we can help reduce that danger [br]by putting that particular problem to bed
0:08:36.121,0:08:37.505
that is great."
0:08:37.505,0:08:42.985
(Jenkins) "This industry thinking that [br]it can solve its problems by shifting them
0:08:42.985,0:08:46.168
to some remote place, [br]and also onto future generations
0:08:46.168,0:08:50.581
and that makes one quietly angry."
0:08:50.581,0:09:16.875
♪ (ominous music) ♪
0:09:16.875,0:09:21.905
The creeping poison of nuclear waste [br]began with the advent of the nuclear age
0:09:21.905,0:09:26.152
more than half a century ago, [br]but it took three decades
0:09:26.152,0:09:28.921
before governments [br]began to take it seriously.
0:09:32.411,0:09:37.941
In 1943, the 2,000 citizens of Hanford [br]and neighbouring Bluff Cliffs
0:09:37.941,0:09:43.380
in the northwest US state of Washington [br]got 30 days notice to move out
0:09:43.380,0:09:47.339
when the top-secret Manhattan Program [br]to build the first atomic bomb
0:09:47.339,0:09:48.370
got underway.
0:09:50.470,0:09:51.870
They never came back.
0:09:58.820,0:10:04.777
Fifty-six years later, what's left behind[br]is abandoned, no longer top secret
0:10:04.777,0:10:06.338
but still deadly.
0:10:15.278,0:10:20.452
1,400 square kilometres[br]of poisoned land, a wilderness
0:10:20.452,0:10:22.990
of dumped nuclear waste [br]from the reactors
0:10:22.990,0:10:25.638
that produced plutonium [br]for bombs and warheads
0:10:25.978,0:10:28.691
fodder for 30 years of cold war.
0:10:31.751,0:10:36.795
(construction machinery)
0:10:36.795,0:10:39.982
The detritus lies scattered and buried.
0:10:39.982,0:10:45.344
(more machinery)
0:10:45.344,0:10:49.426
A clean-up's underway, [br]but it'll take 50 years
0:10:49.426,0:10:54.058
at a cost of five and a half [br]million dollars every single day.
0:10:58.488,0:11:02.238
David Pentz first came to Hanford [br]in the '80s at the behest
0:11:02.238,0:11:03.995
of the American government.
0:11:04.853,0:11:07.134
A specialist in waste disposal,
0:11:07.134,0:11:11.385
Pentz spent three years investigating [br]whether the contaminated site
0:11:11.385,0:11:16.379
might become the world's first permanent [br]dump for highly radioactive waste.
0:11:18.109,0:11:20.935
It didn't work,[br]because the geology
0:11:20.935,0:11:24.281
proved too complex, [br]and it's not yet worked
0:11:24.281,0:11:26.025
anywhere else in the world.
0:11:26.735,0:11:30.913
(Pentz) "I think total costs, probably [br]we've spent in the world today,
0:11:30.913,0:11:42.406
is certainly in excess of $20 billion,[br]and we obviously don't have a repository
0:11:42.406,0:11:45.320
licenced repository,[br]anywhere in the world."
0:11:46.310,0:11:50.938
Pentz went home to Seattle, [br]but the idea of a disposal site
0:11:50.938,0:11:53.343
deep underground did not go away.
0:11:53.837,0:11:56.876
He nagged at the problem [br]and it nagged at him.
0:11:59.276,0:12:03.450
Pentz was chairman of Golder Associates,[br]the industrial waste experts
0:12:03.450,0:12:09.174
and under its umbrella in March 1997, [br]he set up Pangea Resources Limited.
0:12:10.064,0:12:16.028
(Pentz) "We see ourselves as an ambassador[br]of a problem, a world problem,
0:12:16.398,0:12:22.926
and we think Australia should [br]at least talk about it and consider it
0:12:24.626,0:12:30.100
in a rational sense [br]because of, that we at least,
0:12:30.100,0:12:33.424
and I think you will find [br]others in the world
0:12:33.424,0:12:38.589
believe that Australia [br]has an incredible opportunity
0:12:38.589,0:12:41.627
to help the world, [br]and if you want to call that
0:12:41.627,0:12:44.174
as being good neighbourly, so be it.
0:12:44.174,0:12:49.430
To me it's, uh, good neighbourly [br]doesn't put enough dimension
0:12:49.430,0:12:52.606
on the challenge that the world faces.
0:12:56.516,0:12:59.174
From modest offices [br]in the high-tech part of Seattle
0:12:59.174,0:13:02.414
that is home to Microsoft, [br]Pentz is working to ensure
0:13:02.414,0:13:04.442
the idea doesn't die.
0:13:05.542,0:13:08.337
(woman) "Mr. Pentz, I have Australia[br]and the UK on the line
0:13:08.337,0:13:10.828
- for the conference call."[br]- "Thank you very much."
0:13:10.828,0:13:14.348
(Pentz) "I could say our tactics [br]are absolutely a disaster, unequivocally.
0:13:14.348,0:13:19.257
I would say however our tactics [br]were not of our own making, right?"
0:13:19.257,0:13:22.818
(George) "So in retrospect, the secrecy [br]with which you've cloaked your proposal
0:13:22.818,0:13:24.289
has been a mistake?"
0:13:24.289,0:13:28.837
"Yes I think that, and some people, [br]and I have questioned myself
0:13:28.837,0:13:30.408
whether that was right."
0:13:30.408,0:13:33.370
(George) "Because one of the great [br]criticisms of the whole nuclear industry
0:13:33.370,0:13:36.445
and all the, in it's history,[br]has always been its secrecy, hasn't it?"
0:13:36.445,0:13:41.333
"Absolutely, and that's tied [br]both sides of the nuclear industry.
0:13:41.333,0:13:45.980
Obviously on the weapons side [br]and even on the commercial side.
0:13:45.980,0:13:47.980
I couldn't agree with you more."
0:13:47.980,0:13:51.581
- (man) "Hello, David."[br]- (Pentz) "Well hi, Jim! Welcome aboard!"
0:13:53.261,0:13:57.580
Pentz still runs about 60 people[br]around the world, some half of them
0:13:57.580,0:14:02.294
contracted on a part-time basis. [br]Amongst them, Ralph Stoll
0:14:02.294,0:14:04.918
a former US nuclear submarine commander.
0:14:05.243,0:14:09.888
(Stoll) "It looks like, there's a reason[br]to go to Washington next week,
0:14:10.358,0:14:12.737
to follow up with some of these ideas."
0:14:13.017,0:14:18.139
In Australia, Jim Voss is looking [br]for new ways to open doors for Pangea.
0:14:18.139,0:14:23.943
(Voss on phone) "The Pangea papers were[br]right where we wanted them, that is
0:14:23.943,0:14:27.202
presenting where we stand [br]in our feasibility studies."
0:14:27.202,0:14:28.143
(Pentz) "Yeah."
0:14:28.303,0:14:33.466
There's no shortage of funds. [br]Pangea had a $40 million budget this year
0:14:33.466,0:14:38.031
but much of it won't now get spent [br]because the political heat in Australia
0:14:38.031,0:14:41.597
has delayed plans for exploration [br]in Western Australia.
0:14:42.137,0:14:45.695
(George) "So if the government is saying,[br]no, it's against our policy
0:14:45.695,0:14:48.705
why pursue it?[br]Why not just go away?"
0:14:50.725,0:14:55.920
(Pentz) "Because the idea [br]of an international repository
0:14:57.860,0:15:01.700
and the benefits [br]it will bring the world is real.
0:15:02.690,0:15:09.540
We think we have begun to see how we[br]could put the genie back into the bottle
0:15:12.040,0:15:16.352
and, you know, ideas [br]of this size ...
0:15:20.047,0:15:21.047
don't go away."
0:15:22.782,0:15:30.580
♪ (music) ♪
0:15:30.580,0:15:35.126
From Seattle, Pentz and Stoll [br]are on the move across the continent.
0:15:36.086,0:15:39.475
"I have, I think received [br]a very good response
0:15:39.475,0:15:43.732
both in and outside of the government[br]to the concept that Pangea represents."
0:15:43.962,0:16:05.521
♪ (solemn music) ♪
0:16:05.831,0:16:10.256
"I wonder if these ...[br]kinds will work with Pangea."
0:16:10.726,0:16:14.947
In the 18 months since [br]Ralph Stoll's first visit to Washington
0:16:14.947,0:16:19.463
Pangea's briefed officials [br]in the US State Department, the Pentagon
0:16:19.463,0:16:23.336
the Department of Energy, [br]and presidential advisers
0:16:23.336,0:16:28.111
in two powerful arms of American security,[br]the National Security Council
0:16:28.111,0:16:30.647
and the National Security Agency.
0:16:32.457,0:16:37.158
And to reach the administration's [br]highest political levels, Pangea's hired
0:16:37.158,0:16:40.313
a big-hitter lobbyist, the man slated
0:16:40.313,0:16:44.004
to run Vice President Al Gore's [br]presidential campaign next year.
0:16:44.934,0:16:48.003
And Pangea's struck a chord [br]that shifts its focus
0:16:48.003,0:16:49.714
from a commercial venture,
0:16:49.714,0:16:52.852
to play to America's [br]strategic preoccupation
0:16:52.852,0:16:56.137
with growing stockpiles [br]of nuclear warheads.
0:16:57.028,0:16:59.867
"The world has a serious problem [br]with nuclear waste.
0:16:59.867,0:17:05.314
There are thousands and thousands [br]of tons of it, and thousands of tons more
0:17:05.314,0:17:11.780
coming on-line each year, so to speak, [br]as well as many thousands of tons
0:17:11.780,0:17:16.078
that are derivative [br]from former nuclear weapons programs,
0:17:16.078,0:17:22.388
and these have to be stored [br]safely and securely for thousands of years
0:17:22.388,0:17:24.922
and the world simply doesn't [br]have a solution to this
0:17:24.922,0:17:28.739
and as long as this waste [br]is stored in an imperfect fashion
0:17:28.739,0:17:32.489
which it is now, virtually everywhere, [br]it represents something of a threat."
0:17:33.199,0:17:36.302
Until the end of last year, [br]Jan Lodal was responsible
0:17:36.302,0:17:38.671
for running nuclear policy [br]for the Pentagon.
0:17:39.301,0:17:43.318
"I think that the American government [br]is likely to be very attracted
0:17:43.318,0:17:49.000
to the possibility of such a site, [br]and it will also see the attractiveness
0:17:49.000,0:17:50.856
of Australia's location."
0:17:52.706,0:17:58.330
At Washington's Georgetown University, [br]Pangea has another influential ally
0:17:58.330,0:18:02.546
in President Clinton's special adviser [br]for disarmament, who's concerned
0:18:02.546,0:18:06.475
about bombs or the raw material [br]falling into the hands
0:18:06.475,0:18:08.705
of rogue states and terrorist groups.
0:18:09.676,0:18:12.037
"In the United States, [br]we are very concerned
0:18:12.037,0:18:15.500
about what is generally called [br]in the literature the loose nuke problem.
0:18:15.630,0:18:18.489
We are working with the Russians [br]in a very cooperative way,
0:18:18.489,0:18:23.222
but still there are hundreds of tons, [br]when it only takes a few kilograms
0:18:23.222,0:18:26.337
to make a bomb, there are hundreds [br]of tons of this material
0:18:26.337,0:18:30.330
inadequately protected. [br]That's what we wanna take care of too.
0:18:31.360,0:18:34.417
♪ (western music) ♪
0:18:34.417,0:18:40.218
♪ On the trail you'll find me lopin',[br]while the spaces are wide open ♪
0:18:40.218,0:18:45.191
♪ in the land of the old AEC, yee-hoo ♪
0:18:45.191,0:18:51.216
♪ why, the cedar is attractive,[br]and the air is radioactive ♪
0:18:51.216,0:18:54.908
♪ oh, the Wild West is [br]where I want to be ♪
0:18:55.958,0:19:01.576
♪ 'mid the sagebrush and the cactus[br]I'll watch the fellas practice ♪
0:19:01.576,0:19:06.899
♪ droppin' bombs through [br]the clean desert breeze, ah-ha ♪
0:19:06.899,0:19:12.369
(bomb explosion)
0:19:14.999,0:19:18.102
If nuclear disarmament [br]was the peace dividend
0:19:18.102,0:19:21.217
from the end of the Cold War, [br]then the problem of dealing
0:19:21.217,0:19:25.045
with today's unwanted nuclear bombs [br]is the peace headache.
0:19:28.115,0:19:31.052
In pursuit of superiority [br]over the Russians,
0:19:31.052,0:19:35.913
America detonated 928 bombs [br]at the Nevada test site,
0:19:35.913,0:19:38.272
a hundred of them above ground.
0:19:39.163,0:19:43.982
The tests took 40 years to conduct, [br]but the combined time
0:19:43.982,0:19:48.300
for all those explosions [br]amounts to a mere 60 seconds
0:19:48.760,0:19:52.882
a minute of the most destructive power [br]created by humankind.
0:19:53.412,0:20:15.225
(explosions, wind, breaking glass, planes)
0:20:18.717,0:20:24.237
The Cold War legacy is [br]100,000 nuclear warheads around the world.
0:20:25.307,0:20:30.349
Disarmament talks call [br]for a reduction to 4,000 in 10 years.
0:20:31.355,0:20:34.019
Pangea reckons [br]it can help disarmament
0:20:34.019,0:20:37.018
by burying plutonium [br]from decommissioned warheads
0:20:37.318,0:20:41.101
a claim questioned by critics [br]who say nothing in the plans
0:20:41.101,0:20:43.557
ensure it can never be retrieved.
0:20:44.336,0:20:46.981
"They cloak it as [br]a nuclear non proliferation
0:20:46.981,0:20:50.083
and arms control proposal, [br]but when you look at the fine print
0:20:50.083,0:20:53.508
it really is, at this point in time[br]at least, a bail-out
0:20:53.928,0:20:57.384
for the nuclear industry and [br]for the plutonium industry in particular."
0:20:57.610,0:21:01.076
"These need not be inconsistent at all.
0:21:01.076,0:21:04.171
So I think that [br]it is a commercial enterprise
0:21:04.171,0:21:07.138
but the potential for [br]a very positive impact
0:21:07.138,0:21:09.850
on international security is very real."
0:21:09.462,0:21:12.411
"That's the rhetoric. [br]That's the broad brush
0:21:12.552,0:21:19.350
but the fine strokes indicate [br]that this spent fuel
0:21:19.307,0:21:23.670
will be put underground [br]on a retrievable basis
0:21:23.670,0:21:25.975
so that countries [br]that want to get it out, can."
0:21:26.145,0:21:30.100
"The fact that there may be [br]retrievability doesn't bother me
0:21:30.100,0:21:33.166
provided, of course,[br]the retrievability is
0:21:33.166,0:21:36.147
something that were very easily [br]monitored and prevented
0:21:36.147,0:21:38.747
if the international community [br]wished to prevent it
0:21:38.747,0:21:40.759
and if you had [br]a remote site in Australia,
0:21:40.759,0:21:42.318
I think you could assure that."
0:21:50.558,0:21:53.451
Fifty kilometres from [br]the Nevada test site
0:21:53.577,0:21:58.049
lies Yucca Mountain, [br]and a stark reminder that America
0:21:58.049,0:22:00.934
like the rest of the world, [br]has a growing problem
0:22:00.934,0:22:02.382
with commercial waste.
0:22:02.852,0:22:06.954
10,000 tons is created globally each year.
0:22:07.957,0:22:11.495
"The alternative is the stuff [br]right now sitting in swimming pools
0:22:11.495,0:22:14.878
and the basement of power plants [br]in metropolitan areas.
0:22:15.608,0:22:18.145
What's that going to do [br]to our future generations?
0:22:18.145,0:22:20.392
We can't make this stuff go away."
0:22:20.392,0:22:26.174
Like Pangea, Jim Niggemeyer believes [br]the answer lies beneath his feet.
0:22:26.174,0:22:29.606
(Niggemeyer) So for me, [br]this I think is safe for
0:22:29.606,0:22:33.672
hundreds of thousands of years. [br]I don't see any other alternative
0:22:33.672,0:22:36.055
that gets us beyond tens of years.
0:22:38.185,0:22:42.783
(George) Fifteen kilometres of tunnel[br]lie inside Yucca Mountain.
0:22:43.236,0:22:47.402
It represents America's [br]and the world's best bet yet
0:22:47.402,0:22:51.519
for a nuclear waste dump. [br]But it's not a good bet at all.
0:22:51.519,0:22:54.651
(Niggemeyer) And you'll notice[br]as we go down
0:22:54.651,0:22:58.696
you'll see uh, ties of fairly heavy steel[br]around the tunnel.
0:22:58.696,0:23:03.480
That's to hold up the rock and[br]give us general support.
0:23:04.410,0:23:09.611
(George) The Yucca Mountain project's [br]cost the US $10 billion so far
0:23:09.611,0:23:13.171
and it will be at least two years [br]before the US government
0:23:13.171,0:23:15.634
decides whether it's safe to go ahead.
0:23:16.613,0:23:20.841
The people of Nevada have already [br]decided: they don't want it.
0:23:21.361,0:23:24.871
But they know they're up against [br]powerful nuclear interests.
0:23:25.535,0:23:31.585
(Reid) They do it in a number of ways. [br]One is through fear and the distribution
0:23:31.585,0:23:34.520
of bad information, false information.
0:23:34.630,0:23:37.995
What they do is say [br]we need to get it outta here,
0:23:37.995,0:23:39.767
and then everybody here'll be safe.
0:23:39.797,0:23:42.967
And so that's the game they've played,[br]and they've done a good job.
0:23:42.967,0:23:47.313
They have done a good job with [br]their government relations work
0:23:47.313,0:23:54.812
here in Washington, they've got [br]the best lobbyists money can buy. (laughs)
0:23:56.442,0:23:59.259
(George) If the nuclear industry [br]does get its way,
0:23:59.259,0:24:04.192
this is what an underground [br]nuclear repository would look like.
0:24:04.192,0:24:08.972
Kilometres of tunnels containing[br]steel and concrete canisters,
0:24:08.972,0:24:14.255
radiating heat for hundreds of years; [br]their contents deadly
0:24:14.255,0:24:16.202
for tens of thousands of years.
0:24:20.172,0:24:24.644
And if the Americans have problems [br]finding a place for their nuclear waste,
0:24:24.644,0:24:27.250
imagine the problems across the Atlantic.
0:24:35.326,0:24:39.971
Europe's denser population and smaller [br]land mass have left the problem of
0:24:39.971,0:24:43.025
getting rid of waste from [br]nuclear power stations
0:24:43.025,0:24:47.860
mired in political, social,[br]and scientific rouse.
0:24:47.995,0:24:52.410
Nowhere more so than Britain, [br]where a decade-long search
0:24:52.410,0:24:56.069
for an underground waste dump has [br]collapsed in utter failure
0:24:56.069,0:24:58.400
after costing half a billion dollars.
0:24:59.370,0:25:02.736
(Blowers) Well in one sense, there is [br]some urgency, 'cause I think
0:25:02.736,0:25:07.117
it would be true to say that to do nothing[br]is not an option at the present time
0:25:07.117,0:25:09.832
because wastes are accumulating[br]in every country.
0:25:09.832,0:25:12.054
(George) A member of the [br]British government's
0:25:12.054,0:25:15.590
radioactive waste management committee, [br]Professor Andy Blowers
0:25:15.590,0:25:19.428
brings a critical eye to bear [br]on the nation's nuclear industry.
0:25:19.798,0:25:23.711
(Blowers) On the other hand, the kind of [br]urgency that the industry puts forward,
0:25:23.711,0:25:27.128
I think, is an urgency that is backing [br]their own particular interests.
0:25:27.128,0:25:31.742
They do need a solution to this [br]intractable problem of nuclear waste.
0:25:31.742,0:25:35.857
If they get the solution which appears to[br]be acceptable, then that,
0:25:35.857,0:25:38.840
to a high degree, [br]will underpin the future of
0:25:38.840,0:25:40.837
the nuclear industry as they perceive it.
0:25:40.837,0:25:43.706
(Voss) We're not motivated by providing [br]the opportunity for
0:25:43.706,0:25:46.152
new nuclear plants in the future.
0:25:46.482,0:25:50.703
We're motivated by providing a solution [br]to the problems that are there today.
0:25:51.793,0:25:56.209
(George) And yet if you do provide a [br]solution to the problems that are there
0:25:56.209,0:25:58.952
today, the problem of nuclear waste...
0:25:58.952,0:26:00.886
(Voss) Yes...[br](George) You end up do you not,
0:26:00.886,0:26:03.945
justifying the continued existence [br]of the nuclear industry?
0:26:04.615,0:26:09.379
(Voss) Under some circumstances one could [br]interpret that. Remember that our...
0:26:09.379,0:26:13.447
(George) One suspects the nuclear industry[br]will interpret it exactly that way.
0:26:13.447,0:26:15.544
(Voss) They can interpret it as they like.
0:26:16.039,0:26:37.759
[Music]
0:26:38.614,0:26:42.999
(George) Behind the nuclear industry's [br]sense of urgency lies an enterprise
0:26:42.999,0:26:46.294
situated in Britain's beautiful [br]Lake district in Cambria.
0:26:46.494,0:26:56.144
[music]
0:26:56.194,0:26:58.564
It's called Sellafield.
0:27:00.484,0:27:05.774
It's owned by BNFL, British Nuclear Fuels, [br]one of the world's most powerful
0:27:05.774,0:27:10.595
commercial nuclear conglomerates, [br]and it has only one shareholder :
0:27:10.595,0:27:15.880
the British government, and it's [br]BNFL that's behind Pangea.
0:27:16.710,0:27:21.589
(Bonser) BNFL have looked at a number of [br]different ideas and thoughts about
0:27:21.589,0:27:26.735
how to deal with nuclear waste, and this[br]Pangea concept in my view
0:27:26.735,0:27:28.474
is the strongest I've seen.
0:27:28.474,0:27:32.271
It's technically extremely [br]well founded and
0:27:32.271,0:27:36.255
has a very good and explainable[br]safety case.
0:27:36.465,0:27:39.252
I think those things are[br]extremely important.
0:27:40.202,0:27:47.401
Of course the real unknown is whether [br]that will be accepted and welcomed
0:27:47.401,0:27:49.967
once it's been explained [br]and properly debated.
0:27:50.474,0:28:13.722
[Music]
0:28:13.787,0:28:18.520
(George) BNFL's got a problem.[br]After America, Britain has
0:28:18.520,0:28:23.172
the largest stockpile of high-level [br]radioactive waste in the world.
0:28:23.447,0:28:27.627
[Music]
0:28:27.705,0:28:30.647
It sits quietly in canisters [br]beneath the water,
0:28:31.344,0:28:34.546
cooling down for years[br]before it can be touched.
0:28:42.347,0:28:47.612
What's more, it's not just British waste. [br]A big part of BNFL's business is
0:28:47.612,0:28:52.039
reprocessing nuclear fuel rods from power [br]stations in other parts of the world.
0:28:53.919,0:28:58.305
But reprocessing produces [br]radioactive waste, too,
0:28:58.305,0:29:03.589
and BNFL's customers around the world don't[br]know what to do with their waste either.
0:29:04.459,0:29:09.494
(Bonser) Some of those customers will [br]look for an international repository
0:29:09.494,0:29:13.758
rather than a national repository[br]and so we feel that
0:29:13.758,0:29:17.791
where there's a unique and potentially [br]very valuable solution to
0:29:17.791,0:29:20.425
what is a worldwide problem
0:29:20.425,0:29:23.772
that as a global nuclear company we would[br]wish to be involved in that.
0:29:23.922,0:29:27.555
(George) So in no case would [br]British nuclear waste
0:29:27.555,0:29:29.744
end up in a repository in Australia?
0:29:29.744,0:29:32.507
(Bonser) Well of course in the [br]very long term, that's a
0:29:32.507,0:29:36.114
matter for government policy [br]rather than a commercial company,
0:29:36.114,0:29:39.514
and we will always work within [br]the UK government policy.
0:29:42.480,0:29:45.631
(George) On the River Esk, a few[br]kilometres south of Sellafield,
0:29:45.631,0:29:48.875
Martin Forwood checks radiation levels.
0:29:49.995,0:29:54.628
The plant's reputation for radioactive [br]leaks followed by cover-ups
0:29:54.628,0:29:59.148
and allegations of leukemia clusters and[br]pollution of the Irish Sea
0:29:59.148,0:30:02.866
have spawned deep mistrust [br]amongst environmentalists
0:30:02.866,0:30:04.629
and local opposition groups.
0:30:05.679,0:30:09.564
(Forwood) They haven't changed at all. [br]They're still the murky
0:30:09.564,0:30:12.120
deceitful company that they always were.
0:30:13.000,0:30:16.604
(Bonser) We need to build confidence,[br]we need to build trust.
0:30:16.604,0:30:21.053
We'll accept we've made mistakes [br]and try to put them right.
0:30:21.053,0:30:24.756
We operate in a number of different [br]countries on a number of different sites
0:30:24.756,0:30:29.000
and we try to adopt that [br]open approach towards
0:30:29.000,0:30:30.900
what we do wherever we operate,
0:30:30.900,0:30:33.792
and we would do [br]just the same in Australia.
0:30:36.592,0:30:39.915
(George) Martin Forwood, like most [br]British environmentalists,
0:30:39.915,0:30:44.496
believes BNFL should abandon plans[br]for underground dumps and
0:30:44.496,0:30:49.143
be forced to keep its waste on site until[br]safer ways are found to deal with it.
0:30:52.143,0:30:55.209
(Forwood) The industry's option which is[br]to push it underground,
0:30:55.209,0:31:00.474
very much out-of-site, out-of-mind, [br]has so many flaws in it that
0:31:00.474,0:31:07.297
it would be crassly wrong, I believe, [br]on behalf of future generations
0:31:07.297,0:31:10.481
to allow that to go ahead. [br]The second point--
0:31:10.481,0:31:14.767
I think I've already mentioned that it [br]would not be right, it would be immoral,
0:31:14.767,0:31:19.204
in our view, to land a country--[br]let's say Australia,
0:31:19.204,0:31:22.706
with everybody else's waste problems. [br]That would be wrong.
0:31:24.596,0:31:29.396
(George) To London, where BNFL's woes [br]have not endeared it to
0:31:29.396,0:31:31.280
its owner, the British government.
0:31:41.790,0:31:45.174
The latest investigation into [br]radioactive waste--
0:31:45.174,0:31:47.609
a select committee of the House of Lords--
0:31:47.609,0:31:52.946
concluded last month that underground[br]repositories are still the best bet.
0:31:53.376,0:31:59.857
(Tombs) But since it will take 24 years [br]even to open a deep geological disposal,
0:31:59.857,0:32:03.637
you need to start now, because [br]procrastination is the thief of time,
0:32:03.637,0:32:08.106
and that 24 years can stretch into[br]50, 60, sometime, never,
0:32:08.106,0:32:11.108
and it's a problem of such magnitude[br]that it has to be tackled.
0:32:11.513,0:32:16.133
(Lord Tombs) That is probably the way in[br]which international development of take—
0:32:16.478,0:32:20.949
(George) Lord Tombs believes Britain will[br]have to dispose of its own waste at home,
0:32:20.949,0:32:25.398
but says BNFL has every right to [br]explore the Pangea idea
0:32:25.398,0:32:27.446
for other countries' wastes.
0:32:27.586,0:32:31.641
(Tombs) Well it could well be because [br]there are nuclear reactors in the far east
0:32:31.641,0:32:34.040
for which may provide a[br]market for Australia.
0:32:34.040,0:32:35.763
I'm not qualified to comment on that.
0:32:35.763,0:32:38.616
All I'm saying is I don't think [br]the UK's a very good prospect
0:32:38.616,0:32:40.320
for the reasons I've outlined.
0:32:40.620,0:32:42.849
(George) Do you think perhaps those[br]a little politically insensitive
0:32:42.849,0:32:45.456
-- the government owned body in Britain...[br](Tombs) ...Not at all...
0:32:45.456,0:32:46.899
(George) ...Should be[br]investigating in Australia?
0:32:46.899,0:32:50.621
(Tombs) No I would put it in a way which [br]may, you may not appreciate.
0:32:50.621,0:32:54.021
I would say that they have enormous[br]expertise which Australia doesn't,
0:32:54.021,0:32:58.769
and by helping Australia to develop [br]possibilities that they're actually
0:32:58.769,0:33:00.980
helping Australia, which [br]I'm all in favour of.
0:33:02.330,0:33:05.130
(George) Whether BNFL is doing [br]Australia a favour with
0:33:05.130,0:33:08.096
its Pangea proposal is a moot point.
0:33:12.746,0:33:17.378
Pangea's backers say a mining state [br]like Western Australia already has
0:33:17.378,0:33:21.678
the expertise to build a port,[br]a railway line into the desert,
0:33:21.678,0:33:24.227
and the catacomb to handle the waste.
0:33:24.227,0:33:28.176
Investments that would give the state [br]an economic shot in the arm--
0:33:28.176,0:33:31.974
a $6 billion jolt in start-up [br]costs alone--
0:33:31.974,0:33:36.508
$200 billion to Australia over 40 years.
0:33:37.838,0:33:42.038
Pangea chose one of the Liberal Party's[br]favoured economic modellers
0:33:42.038,0:33:43.682
to assess its figures.
0:33:44.070,0:33:47.856
(Voss) Access Economics has estimated [br]that this leads to about a
0:33:47.856,0:33:52.685
1% increase in the gross domestic product[br]and that brings another 50,000
0:33:52.685,0:33:55.529
jobs just from economic development,[br]economic stimulation.
0:33:55.866,0:33:58.449
(Minchin) I mean you might as well [br]suggest that Australia take
0:33:58.449,0:34:00.547
the world's prison population--
0:34:00.547,0:34:02.611
you know we've got plenty of space, why [br]not build a great big prison
0:34:02.611,0:34:04.752
in Alice Springs and take [br]all the world's prisoners?
0:34:04.752,0:34:08.545
Well you know that's, that's ridiculous. [br]So is this proposal.
0:34:08.545,0:34:11.177
(Lawrence) The amount of money being[br]talked about is mind boggling,
0:34:11.177,0:34:14.310
and it might be in the future, [br]particularly if there are further economic
0:34:14.310,0:34:16.826
problems flying out of what's [br]happened in Asia that some
0:34:16.826,0:34:20.108
Australian government somewhere might say[br]"Well let's have a look at this."
0:34:20.108,0:34:27.678
[People shouting]
0:34:27.678,0:34:30.538
(George) Jobs and profits are one thing
0:34:30.538,0:34:33.870
-- the politics of the nuclear debate [br]another thing entirely.
0:34:34.470,0:34:41.320
[People chanting]
0:34:41.320,0:34:45.027
The Government's already faced with[br]the passions aroused by the go-aheads
0:34:45.027,0:34:47.638
for the Jabiluka and Beverley [br]uranium mines,
0:34:48.018,0:34:51.888
by its own search for a dump [br]for Australia's low-level and intermediate
0:34:51.888,0:34:54.748
nuclear waste, and by plans for a new
0:34:54.748,0:34:58.450
nuclear research reactor at Sydney's [br]Lucas Heights.
0:34:58.823,0:35:03.368
To add Pangea to the menu would [br]seem cause political indigestion.
0:35:03.669,0:35:04.659
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister [br]for Industry & Resources:
0:35:04.769,0:35:08.199
Q: Is your policy determined on the [br]science of the matter,
0:35:08.199,0:35:12.400
the environmental issues of the [br]matter, or the simple politics of it?
0:35:12.440,0:35:15.940
A: Well it's a combination. I mean the
0:35:15.940,0:35:18.256
position of the Australian [br]community is critical
0:35:18.256,0:35:19.986
and as I say, I don't think there's
0:35:19.986,0:35:23.276
any basis on which the community [br]is prepared to accept this.
0:35:25.646,0:35:28.866
Peter George: But Pangea's [br]been at work on this area too.
0:35:30.248,0:35:33.478
While proposals to replace the old [br]Lucas Heights reactor
0:35:33.478,0:35:35.858
are causing controversy, Pangea believes
0:35:35.858,0:35:39.388
Australian antagonism to nuclear [br]issues is not
0:35:39.388,0:35:41.381
as deep rooted as it seems.
0:35:42.722,0:35:45.432
Peter George:[br]Over 18 months, Pangea's spent a quarter
0:35:45.432,0:35:47.473
of a million dollars on polling by the
0:35:47.473,0:35:50.260
Liberal Party's own pollster Mark Textor
0:35:50.461,0:35:55.701
whose report warns Pangea that most [br]Australians are ill-informed and afraid of
0:35:55.701,0:35:56.881
nuclear issues.
0:35:57.561,0:35:58.831
But crucially, the report
0:35:58.831,0:36:03.325
goes on to say: "as long as people's [br]safety concerns can be satisfied,
0:36:03.325,0:36:06.831
and we cannot over-emphasise the [br]importance of the magnitude
0:36:06.831,0:36:07.681
of this task,
0:36:07.824,0:36:11.152
People could see the benefits of a [br]nuclear waste dump".
0:36:12.504,0:36:15.734
Jim Voss, General Manager, Pangea:[br]There's about 35 per cent of the
0:36:15.734,0:36:20.530
populous believes that Pangea may [br]well be in the national interest.
0:36:21.140,0:36:26.198
A very solid 25-28 per cent [br]are absolutely convinced
0:36:26.198,0:36:28.608
that it wouldn't be in the nation's [br]best interest.
0:36:28.608,0:36:33.761
The group in the middle are asking the [br]fundamental question of why?
0:36:35.420,0:36:37.192
Why dispose of this material?
0:36:37.521,0:36:40.261
Why now? Why Australia?
0:36:40.261,0:36:41.341
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister for [br]Industry & Resources: I've, as you know,
0:36:41.341,0:36:44.361
been involved in the professional side [br]of the Liberal Party for 14 years.
0:36:44.361,0:36:45.961
I did a lot of polling myself.
0:36:46.266,0:36:49.960
I'd have to say I know all the [br]tricks of the trade
0:36:49.960,0:36:51.462
and I know you can get any result you like
0:36:51.462,0:36:53.458
depending on the way you ask the question
0:36:53.458,0:36:55.659
Footage - Pangea advertisement:[br]"There's no safer place in the
0:36:55.659,0:36:59.900
world to make the world a safer place"
0:36:59.280,0:37:01.770
Peter George:[br]For now, Pangea's advertising
0:37:01.770,0:37:04.420
campaign is on hold; plans to start
0:37:04.420,0:37:06.674
field studies this year are postponed,
0:37:07.850,0:37:10.350
but with so much money behind it, Pangea
0:37:10.350,0:37:14.235
and those who support it believe time [br]can be used to advantage.
0:37:14.235,0:37:16.705
Footage -- Pangea advertisement:[br]"...And a kilometre under a remote dessert
0:37:16.705,0:37:22.495
in Australia is a gigantic non-porous [br]rock that hasn't moved for millions of
0:37:22.495,0:37:26.530
years... and won't for millions more."
0:37:26.370,0:37:28.277
Prof. Brian Anderson, Australian National[br]University: I certainly believe
0:37:28.277,0:37:33.877
there's a chance for the proposal to get[br]off the ground. I'm not sure of the time
0:37:33.877,0:37:39.777
scale, but this is a problem that's going[br]to be with us for a very very long time
0:37:40.170,0:37:46.607
and you know -- governments change [br]and, and politicians, Ministers change and
0:37:46.607,0:37:53.723
our relationships with other countries [br]change so to imagine that we could
0:37:53.723,0:37:57.613
continue to maintain an attitude that [br]we're not even going to look
0:37:57.613,0:38:01.150
at the proposal -- I don't think [br]that's sustainable.
0:38:01.161,0:38:02.828
Dr. Carmen Lawrence, MP for [br]Fremantle, Labor: If any illustration
0:38:02.828,0:38:06.828
was needed of the fact that you can't [br]dispose safely of waste -- it's the Pangea
0:38:06.828,0:38:12.198
proposal. I've actually learned of this[br]proposal in some detail. I made it my
0:38:12.198,0:38:16.748
business to find out about it. They are [br]serious, they are well-funded...
0:38:17.380,0:38:21.380
they're people who've worked around the[br]mining industry for a very long time and
0:38:21.380,0:38:25.380
I think it would be foolish of anybody -- [br]government or people such as me opposed to
0:38:25.380,0:38:29.218
what they're proposing to underestimate [br]their long term commitment
0:38:29.218,0:38:30.568
to this proposal.
0:38:31.682,0:38:35.682
Peter George: Faced with closed doors[br]at a federal level, Pangea's strategy
0:38:35.682,0:38:40.568
has focused on Perth, where it thinks [br]political opposition may be softer and
0:38:40.568,0:38:42.648
divisions may exist.
0:38:44.222,0:38:48.222
While no member of the West Australian [br]government would speak to Four Corners,
0:38:48.222,0:38:52.222
Premier Richard Court recently ruled out [br]the Pangea proposal,
0:38:52.424,0:38:58.184
though in 1994 he did support a national [br]dump for low and medium-level waste
0:38:58.184,0:38:59.936
in the state's gold fields.
0:39:00.984,0:39:06.388
Though the Resources Minister also rejects[br]Pangea -- the company thinks the state is
0:39:06.388,0:39:09.360
nevertheless sending mixed signals.
0:39:09.317,0:39:11.210
Colin Barnett (26 March 1999):[br]Now I can see
0:39:11.210,0:39:15.725
a scenario developing in future where [br]countries that supply uranium will share
0:39:15.725,0:39:19.795
some of the obligations for disposing of[br]the waste but that in the first instance
0:39:19.795,0:39:23.945
is an issue for the Australian government,[br]and I think Australia as a signatory to the
0:39:23.945,0:39:28.645
non-proliferation treaty needs to be part[br]of the international debate about uranium.
0:39:28.736,0:39:31.466
Peter George: Are there doors open?[br]Is there interest?
0:39:32.611,0:39:36.851
Voss: I don't think overtly there is[br]or there is any evidence there is not.
0:39:37.174,0:39:41.940
There's a long educational process that[br]would have to be done before we'd be,
0:39:41.940,0:39:43.306
we'd know whether there really are[br]doors open.
0:39:43.599,0:39:47.935
Senator Minchin: The only way this could[br]advance, in fact, is if a state government
0:39:47.935,0:39:54.679
um, decided that it would like to entertain[br]this proposition and grant the relevant
0:39:54.679,0:39:58.830
state approvals for such a project[br]to proceed.
0:39:58.830,0:40:02.830
But it's not going to go anywhere without[br]the Commonwealth authorising
0:40:02.830,0:40:05.299
the importation of the materials.
0:40:05.881,0:40:11.834
Peter George: Senator Minchin has said to[br]us, to Four Corners, "We will not become a
0:40:11.834,0:40:14.144
dumping ground for the world's nuclear[br]waste."
0:40:14.144,0:40:15.740
Voss: Mmm-hmm.
0:40:15.580,0:40:20.320
George: Premier Court has said, "We don't want[br]to be the dump for other countries' waste."
0:40:20.320,0:40:23.680
Now those seem pretty clear policies,[br]don't they?
0:40:23.750,0:40:24.750
Voss: Yes.
0:40:26.294,0:40:29.564
George: Do you see any door open at all[br]under those circumstances?
0:40:30.641,0:40:35.621
Voss: Taken at face value, those words[br]would say absolutely there's no door open.
0:40:35.975,0:40:39.635
George: So why not pack up and go away[br]under those circumstances?
0:40:40.620,0:40:46.200
Voss: It's as I said to you a moment ago, the–[br]if you, you have to turn this on it's ear.
0:40:46.417,0:40:51.547
If they've said yes today, would it be any[br]more meaningful to us in the long term?
0:40:52.765,0:40:58.965
If our board and our investors would[br]like us to move forward and to try to
0:40:58.965,0:41:04.340
turn a no into a yes on a bipartisan[br]basis, then that's what we'll do.
0:41:04.723,0:41:10.505
[This is the sedimentary basin area[br]that we're looking at, and we
0:41:10.505,0:41:15.645
wanted to go and look in more detail at[br]what this terrain looks like in particular]
0:41:15.645,0:41:18.777
Peter George: Ten days ago, Pangea[br]representatives from Britain and the
0:41:18.777,0:41:24.670
United States flew in to Melbourne for a[br]two-day strategy meeting, while last week
0:41:24.670,0:41:30.315
in Perth, Pangea hosted a dozen Australian[br]and international scientists for a first
0:41:30.315,0:41:33.555
private meeting of its scientific[br]review board.
0:41:33.881,0:41:35.771
Peter George: So how much more money,
0:41:35.771,0:41:38.722
how much more time are you prepared[br]to put into this before you actually have
0:41:38.722,0:41:39.811
to make a decision?
0:41:39.811,0:41:41.671
Voss: Well first up that's not[br]my decision,
0:41:41.671,0:41:43.991
that's, that's the decision of the[br]board of directors.
0:41:43.991,0:41:47.141
George: Mmm, but you speak for Pangea,[br]you must know what the view is?
0:41:47.141,0:41:52.231
Voss: In the broader sense the, sometime[br]during this calendar year there will be
0:41:52.231,0:41:57.100
a decision as to what course of action[br]to take next, which country,
0:41:57.100,0:41:59.541
which course, which strategy.
0:42:00.538,0:42:06.618
(Pentz) In terms of predictability from one[br]place to another, do we got any more feel
0:42:06.618,0:42:10.193
from that, and some of these particular[br]areas you've started to look at?
0:42:10.393,0:42:15.329
(George) Pangea's strategy has brought[br]about its own undoing, opening it to the
0:42:15.329,0:42:20.359
same accusations of secrecy that has[br]dogged the nuclear industry from birth.
0:42:21.801,0:42:27.830
But succeed or fail, it's an uncomfortable[br]reminder that Australia is, after all,
0:42:27.830,0:42:30.238
a part of the nuclear world[br]and its problems.
0:42:30.842,0:42:36.600
(Pentz): At the present moment Australia[br]provides a significant quantity of uranium
0:42:36.600,0:42:41.450
to the world. If, in fact, there is a[br]repository, it's kind of like...
0:42:43.311,0:42:49.436
womb to tomb. So to say that Australia[br]is not a nuclear power
0:42:49.436,0:42:54.724
state is correct, right, but it is in the[br]nuclear fuel cycle.
0:42:54.992,0:43:00.152
(Minchin): It does not then follow that[br]Australia is required to receive back
0:43:00.152,0:43:05.212
all that waste material, and I really do[br]think countries have to take a very
0:43:05.212,0:43:10.586
responsible approach when they enter[br]into the business of generating their
0:43:10.586,0:43:12.250
electricity by nuclear power.
0:43:12.325,0:43:15.275
(Lawrence): Australia is putting itself,[br]I think, in a difficult position by
0:43:15.275,0:43:19.275
continuing to expand the nuclear industry[br]by, as the current government is doing,
0:43:19.275,0:43:21.800
expanding the mining of uranium in[br]this country.
0:43:21.800,0:43:25.357
We are in a sense placing ourselves[br]in some position of obligation
0:43:25.357,0:43:27.247
to the disposal of those wastes.
0:43:34.593,0:43:40.828
Peter George: If it fails in Australia,[br]Pangea says it'll turn its focus to Argentina.
0:43:42.481,0:43:47.901
But it's the unique combination of geology,[br]political stability and international
0:43:47.901,0:43:51.471
credentials that first brought Pangea to[br]Australia.
0:43:52.451,0:43:55.781
Credentials which have put Australia[br]in the nuclear limelight and
0:43:55.781,0:44:01.524
will continue to do so as concern about[br]nuclear waste and nuclear disarmament
0:44:01.524,0:44:03.477
grows into the next century.
0:44:03.477,0:44:39.217
[dramatic jazz music]