WEBVTT
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Deep beneath the West Australian outback
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lies the germ of an idea.
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A dream about
making the world a safer place
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that's gone beyond just the dreaming.
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(man) "We have a very specific goal,
dispose of nuclear wastes,
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pull out the nuclear weapons
and get them out of the way."
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Jim Voss envisages a catacomb
500 metres beneath his feet
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that would keep safe forever
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one of the most toxic poisons
known to humankind.
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(Voss) "Australia has the opportunity
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to use its democratic forces
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to say this is something
we should be doing for the world."
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For half a century,
the problem of nuclear waste disposal
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has dogged the world,
and one company called Pangea,
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backed by big money and influence,
wants to bury it in Australia.
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"You'll find a great deal
of enthusiasm in the United States,
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and I suspect around the world."
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"They have backing from incredible people
within government and industry."
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(ad) To make the world a safer place
for the people we love...
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Tonight, Four Corners
goes inside the company called Pangea.
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We examine a scheme
that's provoked accusations of secrecy
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and back-door influence peddling,
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a scheme that forces Australia
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to confront its role
in the nuclear world.
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Australia will make
our world a safer place
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"We're not interested in nuclear power
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and we're not interested in being
the world's nuclear waste dump."
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♪ (music) ♪
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(Voss) "We're just headed out
here into the desert."
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(man) "What you're looking for,
of course
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is the most remote areas
you can find, right?"
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(Voss) "Well, in part.
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The geology is far more important
than the remoteness."
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Pangea's Jim Voss
and scientist Charles McCombie
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took Four Corners on the long trip
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from Perth, 340 kilometres
north east of Kalgoorlie,
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to the edge of the Great Victoria Desert.
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(McCombie) "The flatness, even more
than how it looks on the surface,
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if you look out at the horizon
it's all very flat.
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This is one of the flattest areas
in the world and that's a real key issue
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to the -- what we call a high isolation site."
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(helicopter blades whirring)
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Latitude 28 south, longitude 123 east.
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(whirring continues)
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Out in this area
the size of Western Europe
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lies a patch of ground
20 kilometres square
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that they believe could house
a repository for up to 20 percent
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of the world's nuclear waste.
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Out here you find pangea rock --
very old, very stable --
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the geology from which
the company gets its name.
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(McCombie) "And in the basin area
and where we're on the edge now,
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it's 300 to 800 million years
of quiet build-up of sediments.
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So this is one of the most
stable geological areas
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that you'll find in the world."
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But it's not just science.
Politics are just as crucial
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in dealing with radioactive waste
and nuclear disarmament
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and that's what makes Australia
more attractive than Argentina,
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Namibia, and China,
where pangea rock is also found.
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(Voss) "Well, it's the political stability
that we're concerned about.
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Australia's tradition
in democratic principles,
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Australia's environmental activism
is vital to us. Australia's role
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in the international community
for disarmament for all sorts of weapons
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nuclear, land mines, chemical weapons,
very important facets to us for Australia"
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Behind Pangea stand
three international organisations.
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The huge British government-owned
nuclear conglomerate, BNFL
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British Nuclear Fuels Limited,
which owns 80 percent
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a Canadian company
called Golder Associates
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world experts in toxic waste management
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and Nagra, a Swiss organisation
responsible for finding
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a nuclear waste dump
for Switzerland's nuclear industry.
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(advertisement) The simple fact
is that more than 30 countries
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use nuclear power.
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Pangea originally planned
to launch its scheme on Australians
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last month, with a 9 million dollar
war chest for advertising and promoting
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a scheme it knew would meet
an incredulous public
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and skeptical politicians.
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Those plans fell apart in December
last year, when the British arm
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of Friends Of The Earth
got hold of the video
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Pangea prepared for the launch
and sent it to Australia.
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(Pangea promotional video) Above all,
Pangea will provide the world
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with a safe solution
to the disposal of nuclear materials.
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(man) "Oh, it arrived in
an unmarked brown envelope
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on my desk, and I had no idea
where it came from. I felt that this
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should not be sprung on Australians
in a hole-in-the-wall secret underhand way
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but they should learn as soon as possible
what was being planned for them."
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(Pangea promotional video)
Before any responsible country
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would send their waste for disposal,
they must be certain
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not only that the respository is safe,
but also that its safety must be seen
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to be clearly and rigorously regulated.
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(Voss) "We were of course, disappointed.
It was our intention to roll Pangea out
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in a very public and planned manner,
to give everybody an opportunity to debate."
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(woman) "My question is to
Senator Minchin, Minister for Resources -"
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The response to the video was immediate.
Opponents were appalled
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at the idea of a nuclear dumping ground.
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(woman) " ... Will he rule out completely
any involvement of his government
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in setting up an international nuclear
waste repository in Australia?"
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The Federal Government
moved to distance itself.
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(Senator Minchin) "And the Government
has absolutely no intention of accepting
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the radioactive waste of other countries.
The policy is clear - "
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In the following months,
the Industry and Resources Minister's line
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has hardened.
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(Senator Minchin) "There may be
other countries that
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in far less fortuitous
economic circumstances than Australia
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that do decide they want to accept
international nuclear waste.
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Well that's their business,
and that may be one way
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in which those countries
with a waste problem deal with it.
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But Australia won't be that nation
that accepts the waste."
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But Pangea's plans for the outback
are a reminder of Australia's part
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in the nuclear world:
an exporter of uranium,
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part of the American nuclear umbrella
and a leading advocate of disarmament.
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What Pangea is doing
is putting together a growing network
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of international
and Australian businessmen,
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scientists and policy makers who believe
that Australia should also have a role
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to play in resolving one of the
nuclear age's most pressing problems:
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what to do with the stockpiles
of nuclear waste
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that have been growing now
for half a century.
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It's a debate they say
that Australia has to have
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one that can't be dodged forever,
and one upon which Australians themselves
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will eventually have to take a stand.
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(indistinct lecturing)
NOTE Paragraph
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Amongst those who believe Australia
should play a role is the president
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of the Australian Academy of Science
who's personally backing Pangea
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and will sit on
its scientific review panel.
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(professor) "I think it is important
that they engage the Australian public
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and engage the Australian public's
representatives, namely the politicians
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so that the politicians get
as clear a view as it's possible to get
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of what the proposal's really about.
The existence of nuclear waste
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is a world problem and Australia
in this respect is part of the world
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and if we can help reduce that danger
by putting that particular problem to bed
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that is great."
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(Jenkins) "This industry thinking that
it can solve its problems by shifting them
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to some remote place,
and also onto future generations
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and that makes one quietly angry."
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♪ (ominous music) ♪
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The creeping poison of nuclear waste
began with the advent of the nuclear age
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more than half a century ago,
but it took three decades
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before governments
began to take it seriously.
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In 1943, the 2,000 citizens of Hanford
and neighbouring Bluff Cliffs
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in the northwest US state of Washington
got 30 days notice to move out
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when the top-secret Manhattan Program
to build the first atomic bomb
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got underway.
They never came back.
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Fifty-six years later, what's left behind
is abandoned, no longer top secret
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but still deadly.
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1,400 square kilometres
of poisoned land, a wilderness
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of dumped nuclear waste
from the reactors
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that produced plutonium
for bombs and warheads
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fodder for 30 years of cold war.
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(construction machinery)
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The detritus lies scattered and buried.
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(more machinery)
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A clean-up's underway,
but it'll take 50 years
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at a cost of five and a half
million dollars every single day.
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David Pentz first came to Hanford
in the '80s at the behest
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of the American government.
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A specialist in waste disposal,
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Pentz spent three years investigating
whether the contaminated site
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might become the world's first permanent
dump for highly radioactive waste.
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It didn't work,
because the geology
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proved too complex,
and it's not yet worked
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anywhere else in the world.
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(Pentz) "I think total costs, probably
we've spent in the world today,
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is certainly in excess of $20 billion,
and we obviously don't have a repository
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licenced repository,
anywhere in the world."
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Pentz went home to Seattle,
but the idea of a disposal site
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deep underground did not go away.
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He nagged at the problem
and it nagged at him.
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Pentz was chairman of Golder Associates,
the industrial waste experts
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and under its umbrella in March 1997,
he set up Pangea Resources Limited.
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(Pentz) "We see ourselves as an ambassador
of a problem, a world problem,
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and we think Australia should
at least talk about it and consider it
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in a rational sense
because of, that we at least,
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and I think you will find
others in the world
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believe that Australia
has an incredible opportunity
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to help the world,
and if you want to call that
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as being good neighbourly, so be it.
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To me, good neighbourly
doesn't put enough dimension
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on the challenge that the world faces.
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From modest offices
in the high-tech part of Seattle
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that is home to Microsoft,
Pentz is working to ensure
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the idea doesn't die.
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(woman) "Mr. Pentz, I have Australia
and the UK on the line
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- for the conference call."
- "Thank you very much."
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(Pentz) "I could say our tactics
are absolutely a disaster, unequivocally.
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I would say however our tactics
were not of our own making, right?"
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(George) "So in retrospect, the secrecy
with which you've cloaked your proposal
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has been a mistake?"
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"Yes I think that, and some people,
and I have questioned myself
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whether that was right."
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(George) "Because one of the great
criticisms of the whole nuclear industry
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and all the, in it's history,
has always been its secrecy, hasn't it?"
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"Absolutely, and that's tied
both sides of the nuclear industry.
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Obviously on the weapons side
and even on the commercial side.
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I couldn't agree with you more."
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- (man) "Hello, David."
- (Pentz) "Well hi, Jim! Welcome aboard!"
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Pentz still runs about 60 people
around the world, some half of them
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contracted on a part-time basis.
Amongst them, Ralph Stoll
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a former US nuclear submarine commander.
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(Stoll) "It looks like, there's a reason
to go to Washington next week,
00:14:10.358 --> 00:14:13.457
to follow up with some of these ideas."
00:14:13.457 --> 00:14:18.139
In Australia, Jim Voss is looking
for new ways to open doors for Pangea.
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(Voss on phone) "The Pangea papers were
right where we wanted them, that is
00:14:25.203 --> 00:14:28.052
presenting where we stand
in our feasibility studies."
00:14:28.052 --> 00:14:29.483
(Pentz) "Yeah."
00:14:29.483 --> 00:14:33.466
There's no shortage of funds.
Pangea had a $40 million budget this year
00:14:33.466 --> 00:14:38.031
but much of it won't now get spent
because the political heat in Australia
00:14:38.031 --> 00:14:41.597
has delayed plans for exploration
in Western Australia.
00:14:41.597 --> 00:14:45.695
(George) "So if the government is saying,
no, it's against our policy
00:14:45.695 --> 00:14:50.145
why pursue it?
Why not just go away?"
00:14:50.145 --> 00:14:57.590
(Pentz) "Because the idea
of an international repository
00:14:57.590 --> 00:15:02.690
and the benefits
it will bring the world is real.
00:15:02.690 --> 00:15:10.970
We think we have begun to see how we
could put the genie back into the bottle
00:15:10.970 --> 00:15:22.782
and, you know, ideas
of this size ... don't go away."
00:15:22.782 --> 00:15:30.580
♪ (music) ♪
00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:40.226
From Seattle, Pentz and Stoll
are on the move across the continent.
00:15:40.226 --> 00:15:42.675
"I have, I think received
a very good response
00:15:42.675 --> 00:15:45.542
both in and outside of the government
to the concept that Pangea represents."
00:15:45.542 --> 00:16:08.801
♪ (solemn music) ♪
00:16:08.801 --> 00:16:10.866
"I wonder if these ...
kinds will work with Pangea."
00:16:10.866 --> 00:16:14.947
In the 18 months since
Ralph Stoll's first visit to Washington
00:16:14.947 --> 00:16:19.463
Pangea's briefed officials
in the US State Department, the Pentagon
00:16:19.463 --> 00:16:23.496
the Department of Energy,
and presidential advisers
00:16:23.496 --> 00:16:28.111
in two powerful arms of American security,
the National Security Council
00:16:28.111 --> 00:16:31.077
and the National Security Agency.
00:16:31.077 --> 00:16:37.158
And to reach the administration's
highest political levels, Pangea's hired
00:16:37.158 --> 00:16:40.573
a big-hitter lobbyist, the man slated
00:16:40.573 --> 00:16:44.254
to run Vice President Al Gore's
presidential campaign next year.
00:16:44.254 --> 00:16:48.003
And Pangea's struck a chord
that shifts its focus
00:16:48.003 --> 00:16:50.104
from a commercial venture,
00:16:50.104 --> 00:16:52.852
to play to America's
strategic preoccupation
00:16:52.852 --> 00:16:56.418
with growing stockpiles
of nuclear warheads.
00:16:56.418 --> 00:16:59.867
"The world has a serious problem
with nuclear waste.
00:16:59.867 --> 00:17:05.314
There are thousands and thousands
of tons of it, and thousands of tons more
00:17:05.314 --> 00:17:11.780
coming on-line each year, so to speak,
as well as many thousands of tons
00:17:11.780 --> 00:17:16.078
that are derivative
from former nuclear weapons programs,
00:17:16.078 --> 00:17:22.908
and these have to be stored
safely and securely for thousands of years
00:17:22.908 --> 00:17:25.242
and the world simply doesn't
have a solution to this
00:17:25.242 --> 00:17:28.739
and as long as this waste
is stored in an imperfect fashion
00:17:28.739 --> 00:17:32.489
which it is now, virtually everywhere,
it represents something of a threat."
00:17:32.489 --> 00:17:36.872
Until the end of last year,
Jan Lodal was responsible
00:17:36.872 --> 00:17:38.671
for running nuclear policy
for the Pentagon.
00:17:38.671 --> 00:17:43.318
"I think that the American government
is likely to be very attracted
00:17:43.318 --> 00:17:48.100
to the possibility of such a site,
and it will also see the attractiveness
00:17:48.100 --> 00:17:51.116
of Australia's location."
00:17:51.116 --> 00:17:58.330
At Washington's Georgetown University,
Pangea has another influential ally
00:17:58.330 --> 00:18:02.746
in President Clinton's special adviser
for disarmament, who's concerned
00:18:02.746 --> 00:18:06.475
about bombs or the raw material
falling into the hands
00:18:06.475 --> 00:18:08.994
of rogue states and terrorist groups.
00:18:08.994 --> 00:18:12.307
"In the United States,
we are very concerned
00:18:12.307 --> 00:18:15.620
about what is generally called
in the literature the loose nuke problem.
00:18:15.620 --> 00:18:18.489
We are working with the Russians
in a very cooperative way,
00:18:18.489 --> 00:18:23.222
but still there are hundreds of tons,
when it only takes a few kilograms
00:18:23.222 --> 00:18:26.337
to make a bomb, there are hundreds
of tons of this material
00:18:26.337 --> 00:18:30.370
inadequately protected.
That's what we wanna take care of too.
00:18:30.370 --> 00:18:49.997
♪ (western music) ♪
00:18:49.997 --> 00:18:54.878
♪ On the trail you'll find me lopin',
while the spaces are wide open ♪
00:18:54.878 --> 00:18:58.461
♪ in the land of the old AEC, yee-hoo ♪
00:18:58.461 --> 00:19:02.293
♪ why, the cedar is attractive,
and the air is radioactive ♪
00:19:02.293 --> 00:19:05.458
♪ oh, the Wild West is
where I want to be ♪
00:19:05.458 --> 00:19:08.256
♪ 'mid the sagebrush and the cactus
I'll watch the fellas practice ♪
00:19:08.256 --> 00:19:10.339
♪ droppin' bombs through
the clean desert breeze, ah-ha ♪
00:19:10.339 --> 00:19:12.889
(bomb explosion)
00:19:12.889 --> 00:19:21.752
If nuclear disarmament
was the peace dividend
00:19:21.752 --> 00:19:23.967
from the end of the Cold War,
then the problem of dealing
00:19:23.967 --> 00:19:26.085
with today's unwanted nuclear bombs
is the peace headache.
00:19:26.085 --> 00:19:31.182
In pursuit of superiority
over the Russians,
00:19:31.182 --> 00:19:35.913
America detonated 928 bombs
at the Nevada test site,
00:19:35.913 --> 00:19:39.163
a hundred of them above ground.
00:19:39.163 --> 00:19:42.812
The tests took 40 years to conduct,
but the combined time
00:19:42.812 --> 00:19:48.760
for all those explosions
amounts to a mere 60 seconds
00:19:48.760 --> 00:19:54.592
a minute of the most destructive power
created by humankind.
00:19:54.592 --> 00:20:16.065
(explosions, wind, breaking glass, planes)
00:20:18.717 --> 00:20:23.020
The Cold War legacy is
100,000 nuclear warheads around the world.
00:20:23.047 --> 00:20:27.779
Disarmament talks call
for a reduction to 4,000 in 10 years.
00:20:31.515 --> 00:20:34.019
Pangea reckons
it can help disarmament
00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:37.318
by burying plutonium
from decommissioned warheads
00:20:37.318 --> 00:20:41.101
a claim questioned by critics
who say nothing in the plans
00:20:41.101 --> 00:20:44.396
ensure it can never be retrieved.
00:20:44.396 --> 00:20:46.981
"They cloak it as
a nuclear non proliferation
00:20:46.981 --> 00:20:50.083
and arms control proposal,
but when you look at the fine print
00:20:50.083 --> 00:20:54.028
it really is, at this point in time
at least, a bail-out
00:20:54.028 --> 00:20:57.610
for the nuclear industry and
for the plutonium industry in particular."
00:20:57.610 --> 00:21:01.076
"These need not be inconsistent at all.
00:21:01.076 --> 00:21:04.741
So I think that
it is a commercial enterprise
00:21:04.741 --> 00:21:08.608
but the potential for
a very positive impact
00:21:08.608 --> 00:21:11.092
on international security is very real."
00:21:11.092 --> 00:21:13.472
"That's the rhetoric.
That's the broad brush
00:21:13.472 --> 00:21:19.187
but the fine strokes indicate
that this spent fuel
00:21:19.187 --> 00:21:23.670
will be put underground
on a retrievable basis
00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:25.952
so that countries
that want to get it out, can."
00:21:25.952 --> 00:21:30.100
"The fact that there may be
retrievability doesn't bother me
00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:33.166
provided, of course,
the retrievability is
00:21:33.166 --> 00:21:36.147
something that were very easily
monitored and prevented
00:21:36.147 --> 00:21:38.747
if the international community
wished to prevent it
00:21:38.747 --> 00:21:41.079
and if you had
a remote site in Australia,
00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:43.178
I think you could assure that."
00:21:48.858 --> 00:21:53.631
Fifty kilometres from
the Nevada test site
00:21:55.667 --> 00:21:57.709
lies Yucca Mountain,
and a stark reminder that America
00:21:58.251 --> 00:22:01.084
like the rest of the world,
has a growing problem
00:22:01.084 --> 00:22:03.132
with commercial waste.
00:22:03.132 --> 00:22:07.114
10,000 tons is created globally each year.
00:22:07.114 --> 00:22:11.495
"The alternative is the stuff
right now sitting in swimming pools
00:22:11.495 --> 00:22:14.878
and the basement of power plants
in metropolitan areas.
00:22:14.878 --> 00:22:18.145
What's that going to do
to our future generations?
00:22:18.145 --> 00:22:20.392
We can't make this stuff go away."
00:22:20.392 --> 00:22:26.174
Like Pangea, Jim Niggemeyer believes
the answer lies beneath his feet.
00:22:26.174 --> 00:22:29.606
(Niggemeyer) So for me,
this I think is safe for
00:22:29.606 --> 00:22:33.672
hundreds of thousands of years.
I don't see any other alternative
00:22:33.672 --> 00:22:36.055
that gets us beyond tens of years.
00:22:36.055 --> 00:22:43.236
(George) Fifteen kilometres of tunnel
lie inside Yucca Mountain.
00:22:43.236 --> 00:22:49.122
It represents America's
and the world's best bet yet
00:22:49.122 --> 00:22:50.999
for a nuclear waste dump.
But it's not a good bet at all.
00:22:50.999 --> 00:22:56.031
(Niggemeyer) And you'll notice
as we go down
00:22:56.031 --> 00:22:58.696
you'll see uh, ties of fairly heavy steel
around the tunnel.
00:22:58.696 --> 00:23:04.410
That's to hold up the rock and
give us general support.
00:23:04.410 --> 00:23:09.611
(George) The Yucca Mountain project's
cost the US $10 billion so far
00:23:09.611 --> 00:23:13.641
and it will be at least two years
before the US government
00:23:13.641 --> 00:23:16.258
decides whether it's safe to go ahead.
00:23:16.258 --> 00:23:20.841
The people of Nevada have already
decided: they don't want it.
00:23:20.841 --> 00:23:25.155
But they know they're up against
powerful nuclear interests.
00:23:25.155 --> 00:23:31.585
(Reid) They do it in a number of ways.
One is through fear and the distribution
00:23:31.585 --> 00:23:35.050
of bad information, false information.
00:23:35.050 --> 00:23:38.415
What they do is say
we need to get it outta here,
00:23:38.415 --> 00:23:40.567
and then everybody here'll be safe.
00:23:40.567 --> 00:23:42.967
And so that's the game they've played,
and they've done a good job.
00:23:42.967 --> 00:23:47.313
They have done a good job with
their government relations work
00:23:47.313 --> 00:23:54.812
here in Washington, they've got
the best lobbyists money can buy. (laughs)
00:23:54.812 --> 00:23:59.259
(George) If the nuclear industry
does get its way,
00:23:59.259 --> 00:24:04.192
this is what an underground
nuclear repository would look like.
00:24:04.192 --> 00:24:08.972
Kilometres of tunnels containing
steel and concrete canisters,
00:24:08.972 --> 00:24:14.255
radiating heat for hundreds of years;
their contents deadly
00:24:14.255 --> 00:24:16.202
for tens of thousands of years.
00:24:20.172 --> 00:24:24.604
And if the Americans have problems
finding a place for their nuclear waste,
00:24:24.644 --> 00:24:28.090
imagine the problems across the Atlantic.
00:24:35.046 --> 00:24:38.621
Europe's denser population and smaller
land mass have left the problem of
00:24:40.072 --> 00:24:43.025
getting rid of waste from
nuclear power stations
00:24:43.025 --> 00:24:47.675
mired in political, social,
and scientific rouse.
00:24:47.675 --> 00:24:52.470
Nowhere more so than Britain,
where a decade-long search
00:24:52.470 --> 00:24:56.069
for an underground waste dump has
collapsed in utter failure
00:24:56.069 --> 00:24:59.370
after costing half a billion dollars.
00:24:59.370 --> 00:25:02.736
(Blowers) Well in one sense, there is
some urgency, 'cause I think
00:25:02.736 --> 00:25:07.117
it would be true to say that to do nothing
is not an option at the present time
00:25:07.117 --> 00:25:09.832
because wastes are accumulating
in every country.
00:25:09.832 --> 00:25:13.214
(George) A member of the
British government's
00:25:13.214 --> 00:25:15.730
radioactive waste management committee,
Professor Andy Blowers
00:25:15.730 --> 00:25:19.798
brings a critical eye to bear
on the nation's nuclear industry.
00:25:19.798 --> 00:25:23.711
(Blowers) On the other hand, the kind of
urgency that the industry puts forward,
00:25:23.711 --> 00:25:27.128
I think, is an urgency that is backing
their own particular interests.
00:25:27.128 --> 00:25:31.742
They do need a solution to this
intractable problem of nuclear waste.
00:25:31.742 --> 00:25:35.857
If they get the solution which appears to
be acceptable, then that,
00:25:35.857 --> 00:25:39.140
to a high degree,
will underpin the future of
00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:40.837
the nuclear industry as they perceive it.
00:25:40.837 --> 00:25:43.706
(Voss) We're not motivated by providing
the opportunity for
00:25:43.706 --> 00:25:46.422
new nuclear plants in the future.
00:25:46.422 --> 00:25:50.603
We're motivated by providing a solution
to the problems that are there today.
00:25:50.603 --> 00:25:56.419
(George) And yet if you do provide a
solution to the problems that are there
00:25:56.419 --> 00:25:59.482
today, the problem of nuclear waste...
00:25:59.482 --> 00:26:01.864
(Voss) Yes...
(George) You end up do you not,
00:26:01.864 --> 00:26:04.615
justifying the continued existence
of the nuclear industry?
00:26:04.615 --> 00:26:09.379
(Voss) Under some circumstances one could
interpret that. Remember that our...
00:26:09.379 --> 00:26:13.597
(George) One suspects the nuclear industry
will interpret it exactly that way.
00:26:13.597 --> 00:26:15.764
(Voss) They can interpret it as they like.
00:26:18.189 --> 00:26:37.759
[Music]
00:26:38.614 --> 00:26:42.339
(George) Behind the nuclear industry's
sense of urgency lies an enterprise
00:26:42.994 --> 00:26:47.174
situated in Britain's beautiful
Lake district in Cambria.
00:26:56.194 --> 00:26:58.564
It's called Sellafield.
00:26:58.944 --> 00:27:01.844
It's owned by BNFL, British Nuclear Fuels,
one of the world's most powerful
00:27:04.684 --> 00:27:10.595
commercial nuclear conglomerates,
and it has only one shareholder :
00:27:10.595 --> 00:27:16.610
the British government, and it's
BNFL that's behind the Pangea.
00:27:16.610 --> 00:27:21.759
(Bonser) BNFL have looked at a number of
different ideas and thoughts about
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.025
how to deal with nuclear waste, and this
Pangea concept in my view
00:27:24.025 --> 00:27:28.474
is the strongest I've seen.
00:27:28.474 --> 00:27:32.271
It's technically extremely
well founded and
00:27:32.271 --> 00:27:37.005
has a very good and explainable
safety case.
00:27:37.005 --> 00:27:40.202
I think those things are
extremely important.
00:27:40.202 --> 00:27:47.401
Of course the real unknown is whether
that will be accepted and welcomed
00:27:47.401 --> 00:27:50.567
once it's been explained
and properly debated.
00:27:50.712 --> 00:28:13.722
[Music]
00:28:13.787 --> 00:28:18.520
(George) BNFL's got a problem.
After America, Britain has
00:28:18.853 --> 00:28:23.172
the largest stockpile of high-level
radioactive waste in the world.
00:28:23.447 --> 00:28:26.907
[Music]
00:28:30.535 --> 00:28:32.297
It sits quietly in canisters
beneath the water,
00:28:33.574 --> 00:28:38.472
cooling down for years
before it can be touched.
00:28:38.472 --> 00:28:47.902
What's more, it's not just British waste.
A big part of BNFL's business is
00:28:47.902 --> 00:28:52.549
reprocessing nuclear fuel rods from power
stations in other parts of the world.
00:28:52.549 --> 00:28:58.515
But reprocessing produces
radioactive waste, too,
00:28:58.515 --> 00:29:03.829
and BNFL's customers around the world don't
know what to do with their waste either.
00:29:03.829 --> 00:29:09.494
(Bonser) Some of those customers will
look for an international repository
00:29:09.494 --> 00:29:13.758
rather than a national repository
and so we feel that
00:29:13.758 --> 00:29:17.791
where there's a unique and potentially
very valuable solution to
00:29:17.791 --> 00:29:20.425
what is a worldwide problem
00:29:20.425 --> 00:29:24.392
that as a global nuclear company we would
wish to be involved in that.
00:29:24.392 --> 00:29:27.555
(George) So in no case would
British nuclear waste
00:29:27.555 --> 00:29:30.904
end up in a repository in Australia?
00:29:30.904 --> 00:29:33.719
(Bonser) Well of course in the
very long term, that's a
00:29:33.719 --> 00:29:38.184
matter for government policy
rather than a commercial company,
00:29:38.184 --> 00:29:41.484
and we will always work within
the UK government policy.
00:29:41.484 --> 00:29:45.631
(George) On the River Esk, a few
kilometres south of Sellafield,
00:29:45.631 --> 00:29:49.995
Martin Forwood checks radiation levels.
00:29:49.995 --> 00:29:56.828
The plant's reputation for radioactive
leaks followed by cover-ups
00:29:56.828 --> 00:29:59.827
and allegations of leukemia clusters and
pollution of the Irish Sea
00:29:59.827 --> 00:30:04.476
have spawned deep mistrust
amongst environmentalists
00:30:04.476 --> 00:30:07.459
and local opposition groups.
00:30:07.459 --> 00:30:09.644
(Forwood) They haven't changed at all.
They're still
00:30:09.644 --> 00:30:13.090
the murky deceitful company
they always were.
00:30:13.090 --> 00:30:18.004
(Bonser) We need to build confidence,
we need to build trust.
00:30:18.004 --> 00:30:21.053
We'll accept we've made mistakes
and try to put them right.
00:30:21.053 --> 00:30:24.756
We operate in a number of different
countries on a number of different sites
00:30:24.756 --> 00:30:29.000
and we try to adopt that
open approach towards
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.050
what we do wherever we operate,
00:30:32.050 --> 00:30:34.282
and we would do
just the same in Australia.
00:30:34.282 --> 00:30:39.915
(George) Martin Forwood, like most
British environmentalists,
00:30:39.915 --> 00:30:44.496
believes BNFL should abandon plans
for underground dumps and
00:30:44.496 --> 00:30:49.143
be forced to keep its waste on site until
safer ways are found to deal with it.
00:30:49.143 --> 00:30:55.209
(Forwood) The industry's option which is
to push it underground,
00:30:55.209 --> 00:31:00.474
very much out-of-site, out-of-mind,
has so many flaws in it that
00:31:00.474 --> 00:31:10.137
it would be crassly wrong, I believe,
on behalf of future generations
00:31:10.137 --> 00:31:12.301
to allow that to go ahead.
The second point--
00:31:12.301 --> 00:31:16.567
I think I've already mentioned that it
would not be right, it would be immoral,
00:31:16.567 --> 00:31:19.204
in our view, to land a country--
let's say Australia,
00:31:19.204 --> 00:31:23.266
with everybody else's waste problems.
That would be wrong.
00:31:23.266 --> 00:31:29.396
(George) To London, where BNFL's woes
have not endeared it to
00:31:29.396 --> 00:31:31.280
its owner, the British government.
00:31:31.280 --> 00:31:38.544
The latest investigation into
radioactive waste--
00:31:38.544 --> 00:31:42.109
a select committee of the House of Lords--
00:31:42.109 --> 00:31:53.376
concluded last month that underground
repositories are still the best bet.
00:31:53.376 --> 00:31:59.857
(Tombs) But since it will take 24 years
even to open a deep geological disposal,
00:31:59.857 --> 00:32:03.637
you need to start now, because
procrastination is the thief of time,
00:32:03.637 --> 00:32:08.336
and that 24 years can stretch into
50, 60, sometime, never,
00:32:08.336 --> 00:32:12.018
and it's a problem of such magnitude
that it has to be tackled.
00:32:12.018 --> 00:32:20.949
(George) Lord Tombs believes Britain will
have to dispose of its own waste at home,
00:32:20.949 --> 00:32:25.398
but says BNFL has every right to
explore the Pangea idea
00:32:25.398 --> 00:32:28.296
for other countries' wastes.
00:32:28.296 --> 00:32:32.361
(Tombs) Well it could well be because
there are nuclear reactors in the far east
00:32:32.361 --> 00:32:34.760
for which may provide a
market for Australia.
00:32:34.760 --> 00:32:36.643
I'm not qualified to comment on that.
00:32:36.643 --> 00:32:39.226
All I'm saying is I don't think
the UK's a very good prospect
00:32:39.226 --> 00:32:40.709
for the reasons I've outlined.
00:32:40.709 --> 00:32:43.159
(George) Do you think perhaps those
a little politically insensitive
00:32:43.159 --> 00:32:44.907
-- the government owned body in Britain...
00:32:44.907 --> 00:32:46.357
(Tombs) ...Not at all...
00:32:46.357 --> 00:32:47.989
(George) ...Should be
investigating in Australia?
00:32:47.989 --> 00:32:50.621
(Tombs) No I would put it in a way which
may, you may not appreciate.
00:32:50.621 --> 00:32:54.021
I would say that they have enormous
expertise which Australia doesn't,
00:32:54.021 --> 00:32:58.769
and by helping Australia to develop
possibilities that they're actually
00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:01.650
helping Australia, which
I'm all in favour of.
00:33:01.650 --> 00:33:05.350
(George) Whether BNFL is doing
Australia a favour with
00:33:05.350 --> 00:33:08.166
its Pangea proposal is a moot point.
00:33:08.166 --> 00:33:17.378
Pangea's backers say a mining state
like Western Australia already has
00:33:17.378 --> 00:33:21.678
the expertise to build a port,
a railway line into the desert,
00:33:21.678 --> 00:33:24.227
and the catacomb to handle the waste.
00:33:24.227 --> 00:33:28.176
Investments that would give the state
an economic shot in the arm--
00:33:28.176 --> 00:33:31.974
a $6 billion jolt in start-up
costs alone--
00:33:31.974 --> 00:33:37.838
$200 billion to Australia over 40 years.
00:33:37.838 --> 00:33:42.038
Pangea chose one of the Liberal Party's
favoured economic modellers
00:33:42.038 --> 00:33:44.070
to assess its figures.
00:33:44.070 --> 00:33:47.936
(Voss) Access Economics has estimated
that this leads to about a
00:33:47.936 --> 00:33:52.685
1% increase in the gross domestic product
and that brings another 50,000
00:33:52.685 --> 00:33:56.016
jobs just from economic development,
economic stimulation.
00:33:56.016 --> 00:33:59.649
(Minchin) I mean you might as well
suggest that Australia take
00:33:59.649 --> 00:34:01.097
the world's prison population--
00:34:01.097 --> 00:34:03.181
you know we've got plenty of space, why
not build a great big prison
00:34:03.181 --> 00:34:05.062
in Alice Springs and take
all the world's prisoners?
00:34:05.062 --> 00:34:08.545
Well you know that's, that's ridiculous.
So is this proposal.
00:34:08.545 --> 00:34:11.177
(Lawrence) The amount of money being
talked about is mind boggling,
00:34:11.177 --> 00:34:14.310
and it might be in the future,
particularly if there are further economic
00:34:14.310 --> 00:34:16.826
problems flying out of what's
happened in Asia that some
00:34:16.826 --> 00:34:21.188
Australian government somewhere might say
"Well let's have a look at this."
00:34:21.453 --> 00:34:24.413
[People shouting]
00:34:24.658 --> 00:34:31.228
(George) Jobs and profits are one thing
00:34:31.228 --> 00:34:34.880
-- the politics of the nuclear debate
another thing entirely.
00:34:35.070 --> 00:34:39.850
[People chanting]
00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:44.107
The Government's already faced with
the passions aroused by the go-aheads
00:34:44.108 --> 00:34:47.138
for the Jabiluka and Beverley
uranium mines,
00:34:47.148 --> 00:34:50.708
by its own search for a dump
for Australia's low-level and intermediate
00:34:50.748 --> 00:34:54.748
nuclear waste, and by plans for a new
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
nuclear research reactor at Sydney's
Lucas Heights.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
To add Pangea to the menu would
seem cause political indigestion.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister
for Industry & Resources:
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Q: Is your policy determined on the
science of the matter,
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
the environmental issues of the
matter, or the simple politics of it?
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
A: Well it's a combination. I mean the
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
position of the Australian
community is critical
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
and as I say, I don't think there's
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
any basis on which the community
is prepared to accept this.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Peter George: But Pangea's
been at work on this area too.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
While proposals to replace the old
Lucas Heights reactor
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
are causing controversy, Pangea believes
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Australian antagonism to nuclear
issues is not
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
as deep rooted as it seems.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Peter George:
Over 18 months, Pangea's spent a quarter
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
of a million dollars on polling by the
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Liberal Party's own pollster Mark Textor
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
whose report warns Pangea that most
Australians are ill-informed and afraid of
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
nuclear issues. But crucially, the report
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
goes on to say: "as long as people's
safety concerns can be satisfied,
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
and we cannot over-emphasise the
importance of the magnitude
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
...of this task,"
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
People could see the benefits of a
nuclear waste dump.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Jim Voss, General Manager, Pangea:
There's about 35 per cent of the
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
populous believes that Pangea may
well be in the national interest.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
A very solid 25-28 per cent
are absolutely convinced
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
that it wouldn't be in the nation's
best interest.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
The group in the middle are asking the
fundamental question of why?
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Why dispose of this material?
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Why now? Why Australia?
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister for
Industry & Resources: I've, as you know,
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
been involved in the professional side
of the Liberal Party for 14 years.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
I did a lot of polling myself.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
I'd have to say I know all the
tricks of the trade
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
and I know you can get any result you like
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
depending on the way you ask the question
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Footage - Pangea advertisement:
"There's no safer place in
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
the world to make the world a safer place"
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Peter George:
For now, Pangea's advertising
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
campaign is on hold; plans to start
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
field studies this year are postponed,
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
but with so much money behind it, Pangea
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
and those who support it believe time
can be used to advantage.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Footage -- Pangea advertisement:
"...And a kilometre under a remote dessert
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
in Australia is a gigantic non-porous
rock that hasn't moved for millions of
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
years and won't for millions more."
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Prof. Brian Anderson, Australian National
University: I certainly believe
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
there's a chance for the proposal to get
off the ground. I'm not sure of the time
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
scale, but this is a problem that's going
to be with us for a very very long time
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
and you know -- governments change
and, and politicians, Ministers change and
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
our relationships with other countries
change so to imagine that we could
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
continue to maintain an attitude that
we're not even going to look
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
at the proposal -- I don't think
that's sustainable.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Dr. Carmen Lawrence, MP for
Fremantle, Labor: If any illustration
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
was needed of the fact that you can't
dispose safely of waste -- it's the Pangea
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
proposal. I've actually learned of this
proposal in some detail. I made it my
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
business to find out about it. They are
serious, they are well-funded,...they're
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
people who've worked around the mining
industry for a very long time and I think
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
it would be foolish of anybody --
government or people such as me opposed to
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
what they're proposing to underestimate
their long term commitment
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
to this proposal.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Peter George: Faced with closed doors
at a federal level, Pangea's strategy
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
has focused on Perth, where it thinks
political opposition may be softer and
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
divisions may exist.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
While no member of the West Australian
government would speak to Four Corners,
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Premier Richard Court recently ruled out
the Pangea proposal -- though in 1994 he
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
did support a national dump for low and
medium-level waste
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
in the state's gold fields.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Though the Resources Minister also rejects
Pangea -- the company thinks the state is
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
nevertheless sending mixed signals.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Colin Barnett, WA Resources Development
Minister (26 March 1999): I can see a
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
scenario developing in future where
countries that sell uranium will share
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
some of the obligations for disposing of
the waste but that in the first instance
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
is an issue for the Australian government,
and I think Australia as a signatory to the
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
non-proliferation treaty needs to be part
of the international debate about uranium.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Jim Voss, General Manager, Pangea:
Q: Are there doors open? Is there
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
interest?
A: I don't think overtly there is or there
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
is any evidence there is not. There's a
long educational process that would
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
have to be done before we'd be, we'd
know whether there really are doors open.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister for
Industry & Resources: The only way
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
this could advance, in fact is if a state
government decided that it would like
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
to entertain this proposition and grant
the relevant state approvals
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
for such a project to proceed.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
But it's not going to go anywhere without
the Commonwealth authorising
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
the importation of the materials.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Jim Voss, General Manager,
Pangea: Senator Minchin has said to us,
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
A: Mmm....
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Q: ...To Four Corners -- we will not become a
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
dumping ground for the world's nuclear waste.
A: Mmm-hmm.
Q: Premier Court has said We don't want to be the dump for other countries' waste.
A: Mmm-hmm.
Q: Now those seem pretty clear policies don't they?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you see any door open at all under those circumstances?
A: Taken at face value, those words would say absolutely there's no door open.
Q: So why not pack up and go away under those circumstances?
A: It's as I said to you a moment ago, the, if you, you have to turn this on it's ear. If they've said yes today, would it be any more meaningful to us in the long term? If our board and our investors would like us to move forward and to try to turn a no into a yes on a bipartisan basis, then that's what we'll do.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Peter George:
Ten days ago, Pangea representatives from Britain and the United States flew in to Melbourne for a two-day strategy meeting, while last week in Perth -- Pangea hosted a dozen Australian and international scientists for a first private meeting of its scientific review board.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Jim Voss, General Manager, Pangea:
Q: So how much more money, how much more time are you prepared to put into this before you actually have to make a decision?
A: Well first up that's not my decision, that's, that's the decision of the board of directors.
Q: Mmm, but you speak for Pangea -- you must know what the view is?
A: In the broader sense the sometime during this calendar year there will be a decision as to what course of action to take next -- which country, which course, which strategy.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Peter George:
Pangea's strategy has brought about its own undoing, opening it to the same accusations of secrecy that has dogged the nuclear industry from birth.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
But succeed or fail, it's an uncomfortable reminder that Australia is, after all, a part of the nuclear world and its problems.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
David Pentz, Chairman, Pangea:
At the present moment Australia provides a significant quantity of uranium to the world. If in fact there is a repository it's kind of like womb to tomb. So to say that Australia is not a nuclear power state is correct right, but it is in the nuclear fuel cycle.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister for Industry and Resources:
It does not then follow that Australia is required to receive back all that waste material, and I really do think countries have to take a very responsible approach when they enter into the business of generating their electricity by nuclear power.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Dr. Carmen Lawrence, MP for Fremantle, Labor:
Australia is putting itself I think, in a difficult position by continuing to expand the nuclear industry by as the current government is doing expanding the mining of uranium in this country. We are in a sense placing ourselves in some position of obligation to the disposal of those wastes.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
Peter George:
If it fails in Australia, Pangea says it'll turn its focus to Argentina.
99:59:59.999 --> 99:59:59.999
But it's the unique combination of geology, political stability and international credentials that first brought Pangea to Australia -- credentials which have put Australia in the nuclear limelight and will continue to do so as concern about nuclear waste and nuclear disarmament grows into the next century.