DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: We're in
Saint Peter's Basilica standing

in front of
Michelangelo's Pieta.

DR. BETH HARRIS:
I feel very lucky,

because on this rainy Monday
morning, we're the only ones.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: And it
actually looks quite small--

DR. BETH HARRIS: It does.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: In
relationship to the chapel

that holds it, but
also especially

in relationship to Saint
Peter's, which is so vast.

DR. BETH HARRIS: Of
course, this sculpture

was made for a
cardinal, but then it

was placed in the
old Saint Peter's,

which was significantly
smaller than this one.

And so it would have had
a different relationship

to the architecture.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: What
I'm finding interesting

is despite the fact that
it's relatively small,

and probably about
20 feet away from us,

it's still a really
intimate image.

There really is this
extraordinary relationship

that Michelangelo
has constructed

between the body
of the dead Christ

and his mother, the Virgin
Mary, who holds him on her lap.

DR. BETH HARRIS: Mary looks
very young and beautiful,

but her body is-- and her lap
is sort of enlarged to carry

the body of her dead son, but
the realization that dead body,

of its weight--

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: It's weight.

DR. BETH HARRIS: One of the most
beautiful passages, I think,

of the sculpture is the way
that she holds up his right arm,

and pulls up that
flesh a little bit.

And you really
feel first of all,

that the marble is transformed
by Michelangelo into flesh,

but also the weight of that
body, and through that weight,

the loss of life that's
so palpable for Mary.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
It's the complete lack

of resistance that
his body offers

and the exertion that she has
to extend in order to hold him.

And that contrast
makes for the viewer,

I think, a very
physical experience

looking at the sculpture.

DR. BETH HARRIS: His
body looks so much

like the body of a real,
young man, the ribcage

and the abdominal muscles.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
And yet it's also

idealized in the
way in which there's

this beautiful turn of
his body across her lap.

And for Mary as well, there's
this interesting contradiction

in her sweetness,
and the beauty,

but also the strength and the
scale that's necessary for her

to easily hold him.

Look at how deeply
carved that marble is.

DR. BETH HARRIS: The drapery.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
This real love

of the turn of the stone, that's
creating this very vivid sense

of alternation, really,
of light and shadow,

the complexity of
surface against

the broad, pure surfaces of
Christ's legs, of his torso,

of his arm.

DR. BETH HARRIS: Mary tilts her
head forward, and looks down

at him.

His head is thrown
back, so there's

[INAUDIBLE] between
those two necks for me.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: And
his neck is exposed to us,

incredibly vulnerable.

Christ's foot hangs in midair.

Mary, her left hand is open and
pointing delicately forward,

as if she still trying
to comprehend his death.

DR. BETH HARRIS: But
I think there's also

a way of presenting Christ's
body to the viewers,

saying this is the
path to salvation.

This is God's sacrifice for
mankind, my sacrifice of my son

that makes possible
your redemption.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: There
is a kind of rhythm

that points to that hand.

The drape and the knee point
up towards Christ's knees,

which in turn create a kind of
rhythmic bridge to her hand,

and to that sense of wondering.

This is very clearly
an image that's

meant to be contemplated.

And the pain and the suffering
that Christ has endured that--

DR. BETH HARRIS:
And Mary's enduring.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: That
Mary is enduring is

meant to be contemplated
as a pathway.

DR. BETH HARRIS: They're
polishing the floor.

DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
OK, let's move on.