0:00:05.581,0:00:08.039 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: We're in[br]Saint Peter's Basilica standing 0:00:08.039,0:00:09.542 in front of[br]Michelangelo's Pieta. 0:00:09.542,0:00:11.000 DR. BETH HARRIS:[br]I feel very lucky, 0:00:11.000,0:00:14.680 because on this rainy Monday[br]morning, we're the only ones. 0:00:14.680,0:00:17.160 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: And it[br]actually looks quite small-- 0:00:17.160,0:00:17.920 DR. BETH HARRIS: It does. 0:00:17.920,0:00:19.970 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: In[br]relationship to the chapel 0:00:19.970,0:00:22.470 that holds it, but[br]also especially 0:00:22.470,0:00:24.700 in relationship to Saint[br]Peter's, which is so vast. 0:00:24.700,0:00:26.450 DR. BETH HARRIS: Of[br]course, this sculpture 0:00:26.450,0:00:28.310 was made for a[br]cardinal, but then it 0:00:28.310,0:00:30.640 was placed in the[br]old Saint Peter's, 0:00:30.640,0:00:33.460 which was significantly[br]smaller than this one. 0:00:33.460,0:00:35.850 And so it would have had[br]a different relationship 0:00:35.850,0:00:36.684 to the architecture. 0:00:36.684,0:00:38.641 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: What[br]I'm finding interesting 0:00:38.641,0:00:40.860 is despite the fact that[br]it's relatively small, 0:00:40.860,0:00:43.130 and probably about[br]20 feet away from us, 0:00:43.130,0:00:45.610 it's still a really[br]intimate image. 0:00:45.610,0:00:48.390 There really is this[br]extraordinary relationship 0:00:48.390,0:00:50.750 that Michelangelo[br]has constructed 0:00:50.750,0:00:52.620 between the body[br]of the dead Christ 0:00:52.620,0:00:56.040 and his mother, the Virgin[br]Mary, who holds him on her lap. 0:00:56.040,0:00:58.860 DR. BETH HARRIS: Mary looks[br]very young and beautiful, 0:00:58.860,0:01:03.040 but her body is-- and her lap[br]is sort of enlarged to carry 0:01:03.040,0:01:07.410 the body of her dead son, but[br]the realization that dead body, 0:01:07.410,0:01:08.260 of its weight-- 0:01:08.260,0:01:09.120 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: It's weight. 0:01:09.120,0:01:11.661 DR. BETH HARRIS: One of the most[br]beautiful passages, I think, 0:01:11.661,0:01:15.320 of the sculpture is the way[br]that she holds up his right arm, 0:01:15.320,0:01:17.860 and pulls up that[br]flesh a little bit. 0:01:17.860,0:01:19.780 And you really[br]feel first of all, 0:01:19.780,0:01:23.540 that the marble is transformed[br]by Michelangelo into flesh, 0:01:23.540,0:01:27.070 but also the weight of that[br]body, and through that weight, 0:01:27.070,0:01:30.122 the loss of life that's[br]so palpable for Mary. 0:01:30.122,0:01:31.830 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:[br]It's the complete lack 0:01:31.830,0:01:33.720 of resistance that[br]his body offers 0:01:33.720,0:01:37.680 and the exertion that she has[br]to extend in order to hold him. 0:01:37.680,0:01:39.540 And that contrast[br]makes for the viewer, 0:01:39.540,0:01:41.470 I think, a very[br]physical experience 0:01:41.470,0:01:42.996 looking at the sculpture. 0:01:42.996,0:01:44.620 DR. BETH HARRIS: His[br]body looks so much 0:01:44.620,0:01:48.290 like the body of a real,[br]young man, the ribcage 0:01:48.290,0:01:49.720 and the abdominal muscles. 0:01:49.720,0:01:51.220 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:[br]And yet it's also 0:01:51.220,0:01:53.540 idealized in the[br]way in which there's 0:01:53.540,0:01:56.280 this beautiful turn of[br]his body across her lap. 0:01:56.280,0:01:59.410 And for Mary as well, there's[br]this interesting contradiction 0:01:59.410,0:02:01.100 in her sweetness,[br]and the beauty, 0:02:01.100,0:02:05.080 but also the strength and the[br]scale that's necessary for her 0:02:05.080,0:02:06.740 to easily hold him. 0:02:06.740,0:02:08.581 Look at how deeply[br]carved that marble is. 0:02:08.581,0:02:09.789 DR. BETH HARRIS: The drapery. 0:02:09.789,0:02:11.163 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:[br]This real love 0:02:11.163,0:02:15.310 of the turn of the stone, that's[br]creating this very vivid sense 0:02:15.310,0:02:18.030 of alternation, really,[br]of light and shadow, 0:02:18.030,0:02:20.330 the complexity of[br]surface against 0:02:20.330,0:02:24.100 the broad, pure surfaces of[br]Christ's legs, of his torso, 0:02:24.100,0:02:25.110 of his arm. 0:02:25.110,0:02:28.020 DR. BETH HARRIS: Mary tilts her[br]head forward, and looks down 0:02:28.020,0:02:28.870 at him. 0:02:28.870,0:02:31.380 His head is thrown[br]back, so there's 0:02:31.380,0:02:34.930 [INAUDIBLE] between[br]those two necks for me. 0:02:34.930,0:02:37.160 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: And[br]his neck is exposed to us, 0:02:37.160,0:02:38.650 incredibly vulnerable. 0:02:38.650,0:02:41.200 Christ's foot hangs in midair. 0:02:41.200,0:02:45.860 Mary, her left hand is open and[br]pointing delicately forward, 0:02:45.860,0:02:47.902 as if she still trying[br]to comprehend his death. 0:02:47.902,0:02:49.610 DR. BETH HARRIS: But[br]I think there's also 0:02:49.610,0:02:53.390 a way of presenting Christ's[br]body to the viewers, 0:02:53.390,0:02:56.110 saying this is the[br]path to salvation. 0:02:56.110,0:03:00.700 This is God's sacrifice for[br]mankind, my sacrifice of my son 0:03:00.700,0:03:03.627 that makes possible[br]your redemption. 0:03:03.627,0:03:05.460 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: There[br]is a kind of rhythm 0:03:05.460,0:03:07.000 that points to that hand. 0:03:07.000,0:03:09.890 The drape and the knee point[br]up towards Christ's knees, 0:03:09.890,0:03:13.110 which in turn create a kind of[br]rhythmic bridge to her hand, 0:03:13.110,0:03:14.770 and to that sense of wondering. 0:03:14.770,0:03:17.170 This is very clearly[br]an image that's 0:03:17.170,0:03:18.300 meant to be contemplated. 0:03:18.300,0:03:21.359 And the pain and the suffering[br]that Christ has endured that-- 0:03:21.359,0:03:22.900 DR. BETH HARRIS:[br]And Mary's enduring. 0:03:22.900,0:03:24.691 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: That[br]Mary is enduring is 0:03:24.691,0:03:26.280 meant to be contemplated[br]as a pathway. 0:03:26.280,0:03:28.210 DR. BETH HARRIS: They're[br]polishing the floor. 0:03:28.210,0:03:30.400 DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:[br]OK, let's move on.