1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,581


2
00:00:05,581 --> 00:00:08,039
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: We're in
Saint Peter's Basilica standing

3
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,542
in front of
Michelangelo's Pieta.

4
00:00:09,542 --> 00:00:11,000
DR. BETH HARRIS:
I feel very lucky,

5
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,680
because on this rainy Monday
morning, we're the only ones.

6
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,160
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: And it
actually looks quite small--

7
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:17,920
DR. BETH HARRIS: It does.

8
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,970
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: In
relationship to the chapel

9
00:00:19,970 --> 00:00:22,470
that holds it, but
also especially

10
00:00:22,470 --> 00:00:24,700
in relationship to Saint
Peter's, which is so vast.

11
00:00:24,700 --> 00:00:26,450
DR. BETH HARRIS: Of
course, this sculpture

12
00:00:26,450 --> 00:00:28,310
was made for a
cardinal, but then it

13
00:00:28,310 --> 00:00:30,640
was placed in the
old Saint Peter's,

14
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,460
which was significantly
smaller than this one.

15
00:00:33,460 --> 00:00:35,850
And so it would have had
a different relationship

16
00:00:35,850 --> 00:00:36,684
to the architecture.

17
00:00:36,684 --> 00:00:38,641
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: What
I'm finding interesting

18
00:00:38,641 --> 00:00:40,860
is despite the fact that
it's relatively small,

19
00:00:40,860 --> 00:00:43,130
and probably about
20 feet away from us,

20
00:00:43,130 --> 00:00:45,610
it's still a really
intimate image.

21
00:00:45,610 --> 00:00:48,390
There really is this
extraordinary relationship

22
00:00:48,390 --> 00:00:50,750
that Michelangelo
has constructed

23
00:00:50,750 --> 00:00:52,620
between the body
of the dead Christ

24
00:00:52,620 --> 00:00:56,040
and his mother, the Virgin
Mary, who holds him on her lap.

25
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,860
DR. BETH HARRIS: Mary looks
very young and beautiful,

26
00:00:58,860 --> 00:01:03,040
but her body is-- and her lap
is sort of enlarged to carry

27
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,410
the body of her dead son, but
the realization that dead body,

28
00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:08,260
of its weight--

29
00:01:08,260 --> 00:01:09,120
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: It's weight.

30
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,661
DR. BETH HARRIS: One of the most
beautiful passages, I think,

31
00:01:11,661 --> 00:01:15,320
of the sculpture is the way
that she holds up his right arm,

32
00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:17,860
and pulls up that
flesh a little bit.

33
00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:19,780
And you really
feel first of all,

34
00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:23,540
that the marble is transformed
by Michelangelo into flesh,

35
00:01:23,540 --> 00:01:27,070
but also the weight of that
body, and through that weight,

36
00:01:27,070 --> 00:01:30,122
the loss of life that's
so palpable for Mary.

37
00:01:30,122 --> 00:01:31,830
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
It's the complete lack

38
00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:33,720
of resistance that
his body offers

39
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,680
and the exertion that she has
to extend in order to hold him.

40
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,540
And that contrast
makes for the viewer,

41
00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:41,470
I think, a very
physical experience

42
00:01:41,470 --> 00:01:42,996
looking at the sculpture.

43
00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:44,620
DR. BETH HARRIS: His
body looks so much

44
00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:48,290
like the body of a real,
young man, the ribcage

45
00:01:48,290 --> 00:01:49,720
and the abdominal muscles.

46
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,220
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
And yet it's also

47
00:01:51,220 --> 00:01:53,540
idealized in the
way in which there's

48
00:01:53,540 --> 00:01:56,280
this beautiful turn of
his body across her lap.

49
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,410
And for Mary as well, there's
this interesting contradiction

50
00:01:59,410 --> 00:02:01,100
in her sweetness,
and the beauty,

51
00:02:01,100 --> 00:02:05,080
but also the strength and the
scale that's necessary for her

52
00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,740
to easily hold him.

53
00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:08,581
Look at how deeply
carved that marble is.

54
00:02:08,581 --> 00:02:09,789
DR. BETH HARRIS: The drapery.

55
00:02:09,789 --> 00:02:11,163
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
This real love

56
00:02:11,163 --> 00:02:15,310
of the turn of the stone, that's
creating this very vivid sense

57
00:02:15,310 --> 00:02:18,030
of alternation, really,
of light and shadow,

58
00:02:18,030 --> 00:02:20,330
the complexity of
surface against

59
00:02:20,330 --> 00:02:24,100
the broad, pure surfaces of
Christ's legs, of his torso,

60
00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:25,110
of his arm.

61
00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:28,020
DR. BETH HARRIS: Mary tilts her
head forward, and looks down

62
00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:28,870
at him.

63
00:02:28,870 --> 00:02:31,380
His head is thrown
back, so there's

64
00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:34,930
[INAUDIBLE] between
those two necks for me.

65
00:02:34,930 --> 00:02:37,160
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: And
his neck is exposed to us,

66
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,650
incredibly vulnerable.

67
00:02:38,650 --> 00:02:41,200
Christ's foot hangs in midair.

68
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,860
Mary, her left hand is open and
pointing delicately forward,

69
00:02:45,860 --> 00:02:47,902
as if she still trying
to comprehend his death.

70
00:02:47,902 --> 00:02:49,610
DR. BETH HARRIS: But
I think there's also

71
00:02:49,610 --> 00:02:53,390
a way of presenting Christ's
body to the viewers,

72
00:02:53,390 --> 00:02:56,110
saying this is the
path to salvation.

73
00:02:56,110 --> 00:03:00,700
This is God's sacrifice for
mankind, my sacrifice of my son

74
00:03:00,700 --> 00:03:03,627
that makes possible
your redemption.

75
00:03:03,627 --> 00:03:05,460
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: There
is a kind of rhythm

76
00:03:05,460 --> 00:03:07,000
that points to that hand.

77
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,890
The drape and the knee point
up towards Christ's knees,

78
00:03:09,890 --> 00:03:13,110
which in turn create a kind of
rhythmic bridge to her hand,

79
00:03:13,110 --> 00:03:14,770
and to that sense of wondering.

80
00:03:14,770 --> 00:03:17,170
This is very clearly
an image that's

81
00:03:17,170 --> 00:03:18,300
meant to be contemplated.

82
00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:21,359
And the pain and the suffering
that Christ has endured that--

83
00:03:21,359 --> 00:03:22,900
DR. BETH HARRIS:
And Mary's enduring.

84
00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:24,691
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER: That
Mary is enduring is

85
00:03:24,691 --> 00:03:26,280
meant to be contemplated
as a pathway.

86
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,210
DR. BETH HARRIS: They're
polishing the floor.

87
00:03:28,210 --> 00:03:30,400
DR. STEVEN ZUCKER:
OK, let's move on.

88
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:38,475