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*33C3 preroll music*

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Welcome to this talk on, err, Funkwhale[br]and, err, the importance of decentralized

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podcasting. Erm, it's just something[br]that, erm, I'm doing as, as just a little

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'outreach' thing. Umm! *chuckles* So who[br]am I? Err, my name is Ciarán Ainsworth; I

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am a, erm, member of the the Funkwhale[br]Association, erm, who are the, erm,

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arbiters of the Funkwhale Platform. We[br]have been developing it, err, for a few

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years now. Err, I joined Funkwhale a[br]couple of years ago as, err, primarily, a

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documentation writer. So, I installed,[br]err, Funkwhale, err, after looking for

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some self-hosting tools, and I approached[br]the project and said: "err, your

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documentation isn't particularly great -[br]err, would you mind if I, if I, helped

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rewrite it?" and from there on, I've[br]kind of got more and more involved in

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different bits of the project. Err, so,[br]I've been doing a lot of work with, erm,

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Front-end Development, Documentation, err[br]Community Management, and, err, my role

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on the sort of Board is that I'm a member[br]of the Steering Committee, which means

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that I am responsible for helping with[br]development of Roadmaps, erm, and sort of

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Research & Development into different[br]features that we might want to add, err,

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at some other time. So, what is[br]Funkwhale? First and foremost? Erm, as

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you can see there, very nice little,[br]*chuckles* sort of interface design! Err,

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Funkwhale is essentially a music, an[br]audio platform, erm, to put it very very

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basically. Erm, but more specifically, it[br]is, erm, a Free and Open Source project.

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Erm, it's a self-hosted server software,[br]with a, erm, front-end web application

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for playing music. And, err, the thing[br]that kind of sets it apart is that it is

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'federated'. So, it's built on the same,[br]err, software as other federated, erm,

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applications such as Mastodon, Pleroma,[br]Pixelfed, PeerTube, Reel2Bits and all the

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others. We all use the same, erm,[br]software to interact with one another,

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err, something called the ActivityPub[br]protocol, erm, and basically it just

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allows us to be a bit more interactive[br]with, erm other Funkwhale servers and

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also other, erm, software in the[br]Fediverse. And when Funkwhale started up,

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it was primarily focussed around music;[br]Erm, the name comes from the fact that

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the original developer of the software,[br]Agate Berriot, wanted a free, self-hosted

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version of Grooveshark, something that,[br]erm, she could put music into and then

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create playlists and radios from. Erm, so[br]that's kind of where the pedigree came

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from, we come from that music background.[br]Erm, but nowadays we're focussed on...

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many things. Music collections are still[br]part of it, but we also have, err, audio

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publication tooling, err, and content[br]sharing as part of our, sort of, genetic

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makeup. So, a little while ago, erm, we[br]were looking at our Roadmap, so around

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about, erm, September/October 2019, we[br]started to look seriously at "where did

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we want to take the project?" At the time[br]we had just moved away from having Agate

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as essentially the 'Benevolent Dictator[br]for Life", and were looking at moving

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towards a more 'democratic' system of[br]governance, where we would ask the, err,

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users to provide us with insights and,[br]erm, sort of guidance on what they would

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like to see in the platform. And, when[br]we started, err, approaching them with

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options, one of the things we found was[br]that podcasting was a very, very widely

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requested feature, erm - which was[br]something I don't necessarily think we

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were expecting. But it was definitely[br]something that people were very

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interested in. Err, at the time, the[br]Fediverse in general lacked a, erm,

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lacked a proper, sort of, erm, platform[br]for things like podcasting. We had music,

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we had, erm. Sorry, I'm just going to[br]adjust my volume; somebody's saying it's

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a little bit low. Erm, we had, err music,[br]we had video, we had, erm, things like

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microblogging, and we had image sharing,[br]but we didn't have podcasting. So that

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was something that people seemed to be[br]quite interested in. So, when people came

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to us, erm, and sort of suggested that,[br]that fitted in quite nicely with another

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thing that we were looking to do in[br]general, which was, erm, content

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publication. So, we sort of looked at it[br]as an opportunity to develop, erm, an

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entire new structure, not just around[br]podcasts but also around music

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publication, so that we were moving[br]away from, erm, just hosting your CD

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collection, erm, and maybe some bits and[br]pieces that you had done yourself, to,

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erm, actually publishing, erm, content[br]and putting it through to the Fediverse

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directly. So that was kind of, err,[br]the background as to why we got into

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podcasting in general. Umm, very quickly,[br]err, we saw that there were going to be

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a lot of challenges with this particular[br]bit of work; the biggest one really was,

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erm, we as a, as a collective, didn't[br]really know all that much around, err,

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podcasting. None of us were podcasters,[br]erm, we listened to podcasts sometimes,

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but not very often; I myself only[br]listened to a few, erm, so we very soon,

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quickly realised that we were going to[br]need to approach people who did this sort

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of thing all the time. We were going to[br]need to ask people who knew about this

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stuff, had sort of, err, experience[br]working with lots of different bits and

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pieces, err, in the current climate, err,[br]in order to build something that fit with

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their expectations, and also addressed[br]some of their frustrations that, you

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know, anything that, anything that[br]frustrated them. The other problem was,

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as I mentioned before, we... are a music[br]publication platform; or we were a music,

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err, sort of hosting platform, so - this[br]podcasting and publication stuff was not

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in our DNA. It required quite a lot[br]of, erm, sort of 'architecting' on the

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backend to, really, get something that[br]would work for publication. Erm, we

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needed to kind of rethink a lot of[br]things, because we'd been making

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assumptions about, audio, in general,[br]erm, based on music collections, err,

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which of course is a very different thing[br]to, to podcasting. Erm, the other thing

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we didn't really know or understand was[br]"what should it look like from beginning

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to end, err, for a podcaster to publish[br]something?" Erm, we kind of understood it

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for musicians, erm, it was a bit simpler.[br]You know, you'd have albums, and you

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have tracks that go in those albums, but[br]we didn't really know all that much about

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podcasting. So, in order to get that[br]information, we decided to form a

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podcasting, err, 'Taskforce' as it were.[br]And this taskforce basically consisted of

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erm, members of the Funkwhale[br]association, and, a group of people, from

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the, erm, Podcasting Subreddit, from the[br]Fediverse, erm, people who make podcasts

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all the time. Erm, and we basically[br]brought them all into a chatroom, and we

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said: "OK, so if we're going to design[br]this, what do we absolutely need to do,

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what do we need to hit? What do you want[br]to see, and what would, erm, kind of

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encourage you to come over to using our[br]software, to publish your podcasts, if

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that's something you'd like to do?" Erm,[br]and it was something, err, the other

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thing we needed to work out was, erm, you[br]know, we didn't really have an insight,

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as people who didn't publish, into what[br]the competition was doing. So, I say 'the

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competition' - *chuckles* - what other[br]people who made this stuff were doing, so

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we very much needed to get that[br]information from a first-hand experience.

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erm, and sort of pull that in, to make[br]sure that we were doing it correctly. And

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what we found, was, erm, basically:[br]podcasts are hard. They're quite complex

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things, where, especially the, erm,[br]particularly the complexity exists on the

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backend; it exists within the software,[br]but the user should be really getting a

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very simple frontend to do things with.[br]So, we found that basically, whereas with

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music, erm, Funkwhale really didn't[br]handle a lot of the more complex stuff

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like tagging, erm we let MusicBrainz[br]handle that; if we were going to be

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publishing, we needed to start actually[br]taking on board that complexity, and sort

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of facilitating it in our publication[br]layer, err, and podcasts of course

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offered, erm, a slightly different way of[br]doing things because there was less

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metadata to be included, erm, and it was[br]less sort of catalogued than something

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like music. The other thing that was very[br]very strongly put forward by the people

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who we talked to, was that, there are,[br]there exist in the podcasting world,

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standards. We have certain ways of doing[br]things, and that has to be retained, no

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matter which tool we use. So, for[br]example, erm, we need to use RSS; we

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absolutely have to include an RSS feed;[br]erm, images need to be correctly sized;

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the RSS feed must be consumable by tools[br]such as iTunes, erm, and, Apple Podcasts,

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which means we have to include certain[br]fields that only exist for iTunes and

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Apple Podcasts. Erm, the other thing we[br]kind of came to realise was that people

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were gonna be using us as a podcast[br]publication tool, but we also needed to

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act as the podcatcher. Because our, you[br]know, our sort of, erm, current makeup at

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the time, was to be a music hosting tool[br]but also an application which played

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music, we needed to give that same[br]experience for podcasts. It needed to be

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that people could publish content, but[br]also take the content they already liked,

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and put it into Funkwhale. Erm, and then,[br]the other, the last sort of big thing

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that came from this was, the sudden[br]realisation that, erm, if you're gonna

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have two or more servers talking to each[br]other, a lot more, umm, you're gonna need

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to really strengthen the, err, moderation[br]tools that you have in place. Especially

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when we're talking about user-generated[br]content, the scope for abuse on that is

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quite significant. So we needed to give[br]users tools to be able to report things,

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we needed to give people tools to be able[br]to block certain stuff, we needed to give

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administrators the ability to use things[br]like 'enable lists', so that they could

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prevent federation with certain, erm,[br]other platforms, erm, and we needed to

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give them the ability to sort of ban[br]users, take down channels, that sort of

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thing. Erm, so, this was a whole lot of[br]architectural design, for, erm, podcasts,

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which had, you know, it was, it really[br]the podcasts that drove us to it. Umm,

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and what we came out with was basically,[br]erm, a hybrid of a traditional sort of

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podcast overview and a Fediverse channel.[br]So in our world, we have podcasting

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channels, err, and music channels. And,[br]from what you can see in that sort of

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screenshot, it gives some, sort of, basic[br]information; you get your artwork, you

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get your episodes, we can split things up[br]into series which was a big request that

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people had, was the ability to create,[br]err, different series within the same

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channel, erm, we have the ability to[br]subscribe, erm, which I'll go onto in a

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second, and obviously if you're the[br]channel owner, upload new content, make

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sure everything is working, err, as[br]expected. Erm, the important bit here

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that we have is the, erm, information[br]about, what's in that channel, so in, in

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this channel, this is mine; ignore it;[br]it's terrible, erm, *chuckles* but,

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there's one episode, and it's been[br]listened to 13 times. And this was

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important information that we, we sort of[br]worked out was needed in order for people

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to get a grip on like "how are people[br]interacting with my content?" Umm, but

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taking that on board, we went ahead with[br]the subscription capabilities, and as you

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can see in the screenshot we have kind of[br]three options in every case; the first is

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if you already have a, err, Funkwhale[br]account, you can subscribe using your

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Funkwhale account, to that channel, and[br]it will be, it will be one of those, erm,

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things that appears in your feed when a[br]new, err, episode is uploaded, you'll get

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notified that there's a new episode in[br]the frontend. Erm, the other thing you

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can do is subscribe via RSS. So going[br]back to what we were saying earlier, erm,

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we took a lot of, we put a lot of effort[br]into making sure that our RSS feed, erm,

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was compatible as, as much as possible,[br]and that anybody could go onto a, sort of

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an open Funkwhale channel, and subscribe,[br]without having to sign up to Funkwhale.

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'Cos, one of the things we very quickly[br]realised was, we, we don't want people to

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feel like they have to sign up, we, we[br]want people to be able to enjoy the

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content no matter what, and that really[br]should be up to them where they listen to

0:14:54.400,0:14:59.000
us, whether they listen to us on[br]Funkwhale or some other podcatcher. And,

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the last one is, erm, subscription via[br]the Fediverse, so, that enables users to

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follow a channel in much the same way[br]they would follow a Mastodon account, or

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a Pleroma account, or something similar.[br]So, we're trying to hit all sort of boxes

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there of how you can keep up with[br]somebody's content. The other thing that,

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err, I've been doing some work on[br]recently is more front-end stuff, but

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erm, it's just making sure that we sort[br]of point people towards, erm, adding new

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content where possible, either by[br]themselves, erm, creating new channels,

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or, subscribing to things, err, via RSS[br]or via the Fediverse - so, really pushing

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people towards that more, erm, it's[br]really pushing people towards that more

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sort of, erm, you know, creation element.[br]We want people to create. So, that's with

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the basics in place, erm, this was the[br]development work we did over the past

0:16:06.400,0:16:10.300
sort of year or so; it's, it's been a[br]wild ride - umm! *chuckles* There's been

0:16:10.400,0:16:14.800
a lot of content that's gone in, a lot of[br]changes made, erm, there's still some

0:16:14.900,0:16:20.700
changes to come; the most, the current[br]release doesn't have some of the newer

0:16:20.800,0:16:26.900
tools that are around podcasting, such as[br]dedicated podcast searching, umm, and

0:16:27.000,0:16:34.800
sort of wider accessibility of, erm,[br]subscription tools. Erm, but, were not

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finished. There are still things, there[br]are still items on the roadmap that we

0:16:39.000,0:16:42.800
would like to complete, and still items[br]that are not currently on the roadmap

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which may need to be added in future,[br]err, to really help us to get involved

0:16:49.200,0:16:54.600
with podcasting more, because what we[br]found is this is a, err, this a market

0:16:54.700,0:16:59.900
that we very much have enjoyed working[br]in, and erm, it's one that actually has

0:17:00.000,0:17:05.700
proven quite popular with people, you[br]know people see Funkwhale as a podcasting

0:17:05.800,0:17:11.100
platform now, *chuckles* umm, even if you[br]know it was originally supposed to be

0:17:11.200,0:17:18.100
music, this is how it's kind of evolved.[br]So, what do we have, erm, to kind of

0:17:18.200,0:17:25.100
consider next, to take Funkwhale to the[br]next sort of level of, erm, you know,

0:17:25.200,0:17:31.200
being a proper, sort of, erm, alternative[br]to what's currently out there. Umm, the

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first thing that strikes me as necessary[br]is, umm, Funkwhale currently allows you

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to import RSS feeds from external[br]podcasts; it currently allows you to

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follow, erm, podcasts on the Fediverse,[br]on, erm, Funkwhale; and it currently

0:17:48.400,0:17:53.700
allows you to publish your own. But what[br]we don't have at the moment is any way of

0:17:53.800,0:17:59.900
finding external podcasts. You still have[br]to leave Funkwhale to go and find, err,

0:18:00.000,0:18:05.100
the RSS feed that you're looking for.[br]Erm, you still have to, you know, go and

0:18:05.200,0:18:12.500
see where, erm, things are, go and find[br]them on something like iTunes, or Fyyd,

0:18:12.600,0:18:16.800
or Spotify, and grab the RSS feed and[br]bring it back to Funkwhale. Which of

0:18:16.900,0:18:21.600
course from a User Experience point of[br]view... ...is not great; umm, it's, it's

0:18:21.700,0:18:26.300
basically meaning that Funkwhale is not[br]yet the one-stop-shop for, err podcasts

0:18:26.400,0:18:31.100
that we might want it to be. Erm, so, one[br]of the things that I would quite like to

0:18:31.200,0:18:35.800
see, you know, coming in future, is[br]podcast discovery, for an external

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storefront; I have built myself a, erm, a[br]kind of proof-of-concept of how we might

0:18:41.600,0:18:47.500
do this using the iTunes API, but there[br]are different, err, things out there,

0:18:47.600,0:18:53.750
such as Fyyd and others, that we might[br]want to consider looking at. Erm, the

0:18:53.850,0:18:59.900
other thing is an improved, sort of,[br]publication workflow. At the moment, err,

0:19:00.000,0:19:05.400
the publication workflow, err, it works,[br]things go in, you get *chuckles* you get

0:19:05.500,0:19:10.500
a podcast out of it; it generates an RSS[br]feed for you. But, we have had, err,

0:19:10.600,0:19:16.600
people raise issues with it, erm,[br]specifically around, erm, 'how do I edit

0:19:16.700,0:19:22.600
metadata during that upload process?'[br]Erm, the problem I think is because the

0:19:22.700,0:19:27.000
way we designed the frontend, it was more[br]of a, it was more in line with how we'd

0:19:27.100,0:19:31.100
worked with music previously, which is to[br]say, upload many files which have been

0:19:31.200,0:19:37.600
previously tagged, and just kind of let[br]them be. Erm, whereas of course if you're

0:19:37.700,0:19:43.200
doing an upload of, of podcasts you want[br]to basically upload an episode, title it,

0:19:43.300,0:19:48.150
tag it, put some artwork with it, give it[br]a license, do all of that stuff, erm, and

0:19:48.250,0:19:51.800
then move on to the next one. Or, if you[br]know you're gonna be uploading multiple

0:19:51.900,0:19:55.300
episodes of a series you might want to[br]have a tool, say, that you can, you put

0:19:55.400,0:20:00.150
them all in a series and say number them[br]all automatically; erm, at the moment we

0:20:00.250,0:20:03.600
don't have that. You, if you upload[br]multiple things, a pencil icon appears

0:20:03.700,0:20:06.400
next to each one, and you can click[br]through and edit them all, but it's not

0:20:06.500,0:20:10.400
very obvious how you do that. So that's[br]been raised as something, erm, that needs

0:20:10.500,0:20:13.950
to be addressed, and we've had some[br]designs submitted for how we might go

0:20:14.050,0:20:18.500
about doing that, which looks to be a lot[br]better. Erm, the other one is something

0:20:18.600,0:20:22.400
I'm gonna come onto in the sort of, the[br]second part of this, and that is, the

0:20:22.500,0:20:27.700
introduction of links to donation[br]services erm, at the moment, hosting

0:20:27.800,0:20:33.800
your podcast on Funkwhale is, is err, is[br]great - erm, but it's the same as hosting

0:20:34.200,0:20:39.600
it anywhere else. Erm, what we need to,[br]err, what we sort of want to be, sort of

0:20:39.700,0:20:43.300
pushing people towards or sort of[br]encouraging, is this idea of supporting,

0:20:43.400,0:20:48.900
err, people who create. Erm, and the best[br]way to do that in our, in our eyes, is to

0:20:49.000,0:20:53.800
kind of, err, promote the idea of[br]donation services and promote the idea of

0:20:53.900,0:21:00.500
helping, to support the podcast that you[br]like. Erm, we don't want to be a payment

0:21:00.600,0:21:03.500
handler, obviously, we wouldn't,[br]*chuckles* but we do want to sort of help

0:21:03.600,0:21:07.200
make it a lot more visible when there is[br]a service that you can actually put money

0:21:07.300,0:21:10.200
towards. And the last one, it's been on[br]the roadmap since channels were

0:21:11.700,0:21:16.300
introduced, it's very, very complex, umm![br]*chuckles* As, as somebody who does not

0:21:16.400,0:21:20.400
work on the backend, I don't really have[br]the tech, technological knowledge to go

0:21:20.500,0:21:25.000
into it, but there is this idea of[br]'channel claiming', where, if somebody,

0:21:25.100,0:21:29.500
err, uploads some music to a channel, and[br]it's not their music, the person who's

0:21:29.600,0:21:35.200
music it is should be able to claim that[br]channel and take control of it. Umm, as

0:21:35.400,0:21:39.800
you can imagine, that's a very very[br]complex thing to do, particularly over

0:21:39.900,0:21:44.100
federation, erm, because you have all of[br]the different implications of the wider

0:21:44.200,0:21:50.000
Fediverse to take into account there.[br]Erm, so, it's our biggest boom; it's also

0:21:50.100,0:21:56.800
our biggest, erm, challenge, day-to-day[br]is working with that federation. But,

0:21:56.900,0:22:02.100
that moves on to, moves me on to my next[br]point, which is all about sort of

0:22:02.200,0:22:08.900
decentralized podcasting. Erm, this may[br]seem like a strange concept to people who

0:22:09.200,0:22:18.200
do podcasting, because, err, podcasts are[br]decentralized by design, really. Erm, I

0:22:18.300,0:22:22.500
didn't know a lot about podcasts, going[br]into this. As I say, it was a very much a

0:22:22.600,0:22:28.000
learning experience, erm, but the more[br]reading I did into podcasts as part of

0:22:28.100,0:22:32.800
the research that we did for this, the[br]more fascinated I became by how they work

0:22:32.900,0:22:40.200
and how they're set up. And, the thing[br]that struck me was, erm, podcasts have

0:22:40.300,0:22:47.000
this, err, uni - they occupy this unique[br]space of being very very, err,

0:22:47.100,0:22:53.700
disruptive, low-tech, erm, you know,[br]certainly audio podcasts, err but video

0:22:53.800,0:22:59.400
as well, disruptive, low-tech,[br]standards-compliant ways of communicating

0:22:59.500,0:23:06.800
a lot of information. So, podcasts can be[br]hosted anywhere; err, as long as they

0:23:06.900,0:23:13.200
generate a valid feed anybody can capture[br]them into a podcatcher and play the files

0:23:13.300,0:23:19.600
linked, using a relevant, erm, piece of[br]software. Erm, that means that the, the

0:23:19.700,0:23:24.500
potential listener-base is enormous, erm,[br]much more so than, you know, anything

0:23:24.600,0:23:30.900
based on, erm, you know, a single[br]platform, a centralized platform. And,

0:23:31.000,0:23:34.900
this was one of the reasons that, when we[br]were designing, err, the podcast

0:23:35.000,0:23:41.400
publications tools, we were so emphatic[br]about being a part of that existing

0:23:41.500,0:23:46.200
infrastructure, making sure that we[br]didn't try to, sort of lock people into

0:23:46.300,0:23:51.700
our way of thinking, but instead follow[br]what podcasting was already doing,

0:23:51.800,0:23:55.400
because it already seemed pretty[br]great: we had, you know, things like RSS

0:23:55.500,0:24:02.400
feeds, erm, we had sort of, good, erm,[br]encodings being used like MP3, which

0:24:02.500,0:24:07.400
could be so widely used it's, it's, it's[br]kind of ubiquitous at this point! Erm,

0:24:07.500,0:24:12.600
and, and, that's kind of a really[br]important part of it. And the reason that

0:24:12.700,0:24:16.900
this came to my attention was, during[br]some of the conversations we were having

0:24:17.000,0:24:25.200
with podcasters, err, and specifically[br]when we were looking at, erm, Funkwhale

0:24:25.300,0:24:30.100
as a podcatcher, so something that[br]consumes RSS feeds and plays them back,

0:24:30.200,0:24:35.200
erm, somebody had said something about a[br]specific podcast, I think it was called,

0:24:35.300,0:24:40.400
the, The Last Podcast on the Left. And[br]they said, basically, "it's a shame, I

0:24:40.500,0:24:44.600
won't be able to play this through[br]Funkwhale because they are going

0:24:44.800,0:24:50.600
Spotify-exclusive, and so they're not[br]producing an RSS feed anymore." And,

0:24:50.700,0:24:58.000
*sighs*, this, worries me slightly; erm,[br]it, it's, it's a concerning kind of, err,

0:24:58.100,0:25:04.400
tr- trend away from what podcasts stand[br]for, fr- from, from my understanding of

0:25:04.500,0:25:09.400
what podcasts stand for. Erm, because[br]when you go exclusive to something

0:25:09.500,0:25:16.400
like Spotify, you have the introduction[br]of DRM, and sort of, erm, you're sort of

0:25:16.500,0:25:21.400
creating a walled around content, and[br]certainly for content that used to be

0:25:21.500,0:25:25.400
free, and- and open, so, you know, it[br]used to follow the same rules as

0:25:25.500,0:25:30.900
everything else, for it to suddenly go[br]into a, a platform-specific, erm,

0:25:31.000,0:25:37.500
publication, is a big break. And there[br]are a couple of reasons for this, but the

0:25:37.600,0:25:44.400
primary one is, let's say that, with[br]podcasting the only limitation for a user

0:25:44.500,0:25:49.200
is that they have a machine that has[br]software that is capable of, of listening

0:25:49.300,0:25:52.900
to that podcast; it's capable of reading[br]the feed, and playing back the, the

0:25:53.000,0:25:58.800
audio. That's your limitation. If you put[br]it onto, err, something like Spotify, you

0:25:58.900,0:26:05.600
actually divide this into four - four[br]different experiences. The first two are,

0:26:05.700,0:26:13.900
users who live in a country, that have[br]access to Spotify, erm, and those people

0:26:14.000,0:26:19.500
will have two experiences; one, they will[br]either listen to an ad-supported, erm,

0:26:19.600,0:26:25.200
err- version of the show, and the second[br]one is that they pay for a, erm, a

0:26:25.300,0:26:32.000
subscription to the actual, erm, *typing*[br]the actual podcast. Err, sorry, to the

0:26:32.300,0:26:41.000
actual, erm, erm, platform. Then you have[br]people who go into other, live in other

0:26:41.400,0:26:47.600
countries, erm, which don't have Spotify[br]served up to them. And those people have

0:26:47.700,0:26:53.300
more experiences; one is that they have[br]to pay for a VPN, and, err, basically

0:26:53.400,0:26:59.000
access Spotify externally, using the ads,[br]and then again, access externally using

0:26:59.100,0:27:03.200
a subscription. And then there's that[br]lost fifth one, which is, they don't have

0:27:03.300,0:27:08.500
the money for any of this, so, they can't[br]listen. So we've fractured the user-base

0:27:08.900,0:27:16.400
by centralizing the, erm, by centralizing[br]the content into a certain place, and the

0:27:16.500,0:27:19.800
problem with something like Spotify is[br]that, that point, when you've done that,

0:27:19.900,0:27:24.000
and you've taken that, sort of, erm,[br]you've taken that decentralized nature

0:27:24.100,0:27:28.500
away, what you have left is not a[br]podcast, it's essentially corporate

0:27:28.600,0:27:33.700
radio, and, like I say, for something[br]that started off as a podcast, as

0:27:33.800,0:27:38.800
something that started off freely[br]available, having it move in that way is,

0:27:38.900,0:27:44.600
somewhat concerning. But, at the same[br]time, we have to look at 'why does that

0:27:44.900,0:27:51.200
happen?' And, and generally the answer is[br]*chuckles*: podcasting is expensive. Erm,

0:27:51.300,0:27:57.200
everything that takes up peoples' time,[br]is expensive. And podcasting, from the

0:27:57.300,0:28:02.800
little I have done of it, is very[br]expensive. You've got to take the time to

0:28:02.900,0:28:09.200
script, and record, and edit, and work[br]with, erm, you know, all of that audio

0:28:09.300,0:28:13.200
and video, you've got to find a place to[br]publish it, you've got to do all of the,

0:28:13.300,0:28:18.600
erm, you know, promotion around it, and[br]if you are looking to make money off of

0:28:18.700,0:28:23.200
it, you have to search around for, err,[br]you know, sponsorships, and ad deals, and

0:28:23.300,0:28:27.700
things like that. So when a company like[br]Spotify comes along and says: "We'll take

0:28:27.800,0:28:30.700
all of that complexity off of your hands,[br]and we'll give you a good portion of

0:28:30.800,0:28:36.900
money, erm, to pay your staff, and to, to[br]make sure you can make a living", it's

0:28:37.000,0:28:42.400
very, very tempting. Erm, and you can[br]kind of understand why it happens. And,

0:28:42.500,0:28:47.000
one of the things that we kind of found[br]was that, erm, the Free Software

0:28:47.100,0:28:52.000
community, in general, is not always in,[br]best equipped to deal with that kind of

0:28:52.100,0:28:58.100
thing; we don't, erm, we can't make a[br]counter-offer to that. Erm, our weapon

0:28:58.200,0:29:03.500
here and what we can do about this, is,[br]as I've said before, kind of try as much

0:29:04.000,0:29:09.900
as possible to make it easy for people to[br]make the decision to continue listening

0:29:10.000,0:29:14.500
outside of those platforms, make it easy[br]for them to continue to support, their,

0:29:14.600,0:29:20.300
erm, their favourite podcast directly,[br]erm which means, lowering the sort of

0:29:20.400,0:29:25.600
barrier to entry for, erm, payments,[br]lowering the barrier of entry for

0:29:25.700,0:29:30.900
sharing, for supporting, for, for getting[br]things out there. Erm, but it's an

0:29:31.000,0:29:36.700
inherently, sort of, difficult thing to,[br]to come up against, and something that,

0:29:36.800,0:29:41.100
you know, we *sighs* haven't found the[br]answer *chuckles awkwardly* for yet, erm,

0:29:41.200,0:29:45.800
it's something we're still in discussions[br]abut, erm, how we, how we might help

0:29:45.900,0:29:49.200
podcasters support themselves, how we[br]might help *stumbles on words* people

0:29:49.300,0:29:54.600
support podcasters, err and musicians as[br]well, this, this stretches to all areas,

0:29:54.700,0:29:59.400
erm, but the answer is, is, is a[br]difficult one. It's not one that sort of,

0:29:59.500,0:30:06.700
erm, you know, comes very easily. Erm,[br]now I've purposefully, sort of, left this

0:30:07.000,0:30:10.800
- I think I've got it exactly half an[br]hour, that's good! *chuckles* - I

0:30:10.900,0:30:15.200
purposely didn't want this to go on[br]for too long, erm, it's, it- that's kind

0:30:15.300,0:30:19.800
of the journey that we've had, erm, the[br]first thing is: podcasting is fun! Err,

0:30:20.400,0:30:26.700
from a, sort of, user-perspective,[br]podcasts are wonderful to listen to; erm,

0:30:26.800,0:30:32.700
having a good place to put podcasts is[br]great for, erm, you know, people who make

0:30:32.800,0:30:36.900
them; from a software perspective, err,[br]they're a bit of a nightmare, especially

0:30:37.000,0:30:40.300
when they aren't what your, erm,[br]*chuckles* software was originally sort

0:30:40.400,0:30:45.400
of, erm, set up to do, err there's a lot[br]of work goes into it, it's, erm, I think

0:30:45.500,0:30:52.100
it's underestimated in general. Erm, but,[br]you know, it's worth putting the effort

0:30:52.200,0:30:57.700
in to, to get something like that. Erm,[br]free software world, the open source

0:30:57.800,0:31:03.300
software world, erm, we, we still face[br]some significant challenges, erm, with

0:31:03.400,0:31:07.600
assisting people with things like,[br]anything to, anything to do with finances

0:31:07.700,0:31:12.600
is something where we struggle, and,[br]erm, it's because we don't have that

0:31:12.700,0:31:18.000
monolithic approach; it's because we[br]don't have that, erm, central financing

0:31:18.100,0:31:23.400
erm, so it tends to be that, you know, we[br]need to focus more on improving, err, the

0:31:23.500,0:31:28.100
experience of working within a, sort of,[br]direct donation world and a direct, sort

0:31:28.200,0:31:36.000
of, erm, way of, of working. Erm, and,[br]yeah, th- this, this, this whole sort of

0:31:36.100,0:31:43.300
trend of existing podcasts being picked[br]up by, erm, companies, and, you know,

0:31:43.400,0:31:49.900
things that used to be so free and easily[br]accessible becoming walled-off inside (I

0:31:50.000,0:31:53.100
only know of Spotify doing it but I can[br]imagine the same thing happening with

0:31:53.200,0:31:58.500
Apple Music and Deezer and a lot of[br]others), erm, is kind of a concerning

0:31:58.600,0:32:05.900
move which is diluting what was really[br]quite a fantastic, sort of, idea, and

0:32:06.000,0:32:09.900
it's a shame that it happens to some of[br]the ones that people find, you know,

0:32:10.000,0:32:13.100
people connect with the most strongly; I[br]think, erm, two of the most popular

0:32:13.200,0:32:18.100
podcasts that have been picked up are[br]things like, erm, Joe Rogan, and The Last

0:32:18.200,0:32:23.400
Podcast on the Left, which is, it's a[br]shame, erm, because high-profile things

0:32:23.500,0:32:30.000
being taken over has meaning, and, erm,[br]you know, it will normalise it in, if, in

0:32:30.100,0:32:35.000
my eyes at least. But, with the use of[br]free- free software tools, with the use

0:32:35.100,0:32:40.600
of, you know, these open standards, real[br]podcasting will never go away; it will

0:32:40.700,0:32:44.800
always, you know, 'bubble up' underneath,[br]we will always see people, erm,

0:32:44.900,0:32:49.800
continuing to, you know, to put things[br]out. So - yeah! It's, it's not all

0:32:49.900,0:32:52.200
hopeless, this wasn't what that talk[br]*chuckles* this talk was about; it was

0:32:52.300,0:32:56.500
more that just about this is something I[br]think is very important, and something

0:32:56.600,0:33:02.400
that, you know, as a project we're really[br]striving to support. Erm, so, I think

0:33:02.500,0:33:07.700
that takes me to- quite nicely 35 minutes[br]was exactly what I was aiming for... If

0:33:07.800,0:33:17.600
anybody has any questions, erm, I think[br]that the, erm, I think that the, err, I

0:33:17.700,0:33:26.600
think that the number has been put into[br]the chat; erm, it's +49-5361, err,

0:33:26.700,0:33:35.500
890-286-8001, err, and if you're using[br]event phone it's just 8001. Erm, I'll

0:33:36.000,0:33:40.600
just have a look and see if anyone asked[br]any questions in here... Err, let's have

0:33:40.700,0:33:49.400
a look... Yeah: "How do I find, how can I[br]find a Funkwhale instance for a podcast

0:33:49.500,0:33:53.500
I'm planning that suits me, my needs and[br]my content the best?" Erm, yeah so the

0:33:53.600,0:33:58.100
link there is, is a good idea, the err,[br]'Get Started' guide, erm, we actually

0:33:58.200,0:34:04.700
have a, erm, a sort of a 'podpicker', we[br]call it, erm, which is, just something

0:34:04.800,0:34:08.400
that sort of takes you through the[br]summary of different pods, erm, which is

0:34:08.900,0:34:12.600
what we ref- how we refer to servers,[br]erm; people can write a summary of what

0:34:12.700,0:34:19.900
sort of content they on there; erm, the[br]two biggest servers, erm, are open.audio,

0:34:20.000,0:34:26.000
and err... ...I think Tanuki Tunes, which[br]is my server, is quite, sort of, big and

0:34:26.100,0:34:32.300
open; erm, there are lots of servers out[br]there, so, you know, if you find one

0:34:32.400,0:34:37.900
where you think "it would fit in - here"[br]*laughs* then great! Erm, you know,

0:34:38.000,0:34:41.500
usually just find one that has open[br]registrations and, and sign up. Or, if

0:34:41.600,0:34:45.500
you're feeling brave, erm, install it for[br]yourself; err it's, it's a fairly easy

0:34:45.600,0:34:51.300
install. There are some hosts that will[br]host it for you, erm; they're listed on

0:34:51.400,0:34:55.100
the funkwhale.audio website, so if you[br]just wanted somebody to set it up for

0:34:55.200,0:35:02.200
you, so that you could host a podcast,[br]erm, then yes, you could sort of, err put

0:35:02.300,0:35:09.300
it in there. Err: "Do you know the[br]podcastindex.org project?" Err, I don't,

0:35:09.400,0:35:14.800
personally, err I will look it up, after[br]this; that looks interesting. Err, "If

0:35:14.900,0:35:18.100
there's a solution to is to be found that[br]could work for podcasters, could it also

0:35:18.200,0:35:22.300
be applicable to indie musicians? Or are[br]the two fields, err, way too different in

0:35:22.400,0:35:26.800
order to accommodate both?" Err, I'll[br]just finish this one; I think I've got a

0:35:26.900,0:35:38.000
err, telephone person coming in... So,[br]err if this p- I mean *sighs* yes and no;

0:35:38.100,0:35:44.900
err if we're talking about supporting,[br]erm, financially, then, yes, in theory we

0:35:45.000,0:35:48.500
already have some of those; I mean there[br]are already donation platforms which kind

0:35:48.600,0:35:55.500
of work for a multitude of things, erm,[br]so really I think we should be trying to,

0:35:55.600,0:36:02.100
to sort of lean into things like[br]Liberapay, Ko-fi, maybe Patreon, erm,

0:36:02.200,0:36:07.000
rather than, sort of, trying to solve[br]that problem within the publication

0:36:07.100,0:36:11.000
software. Because those features already[br]exist, and because that's already quite,

0:36:11.100,0:36:16.700
err, well-established, erm, having better[br]interoperability between those tools,

0:36:16.800,0:36:19.600
erm, is probably the best way forward.[br]You know, you just want to take the

0:36:19.700,0:36:22.600
complexity away from the person[br]listening. It'd be nice if they had

0:36:22.700,0:36:25.500
something like, for example, you're[br]listening to a song, you really like it,

0:36:25.600,0:36:32.400
so, maybe you pre-load a certain amount[br]of, you know, credits to your account,

0:36:32.500,0:36:35.100
and if every time you, sort of, play a[br]song you really like you could throw some

0:36:35.200,0:36:38.700
credits their way. I don't know; the[br]complexity of the actual *chuckles*

0:36:38.800,0:36:42.900
implementation is beyond me a little bit;[br]as I say, I'm just a front-end guy, but

0:36:43.000,0:36:47.200
erm, I don't think there's that big a[br]difference between them, err, from, from

0:36:47.300,0:36:55.300
that sort of perspective. Erm... yeah.[br]Err, the servers were, err so open.audio

0:36:55.400,0:37:00.400
is the main, sort of flagship server,[br]erm, and my server is called:

0:37:00.500,0:37:07.300
tanukitunes.com; I'll put that link in.[br]Erm, but there are lots of, there are

0:37:07.400,0:37:12.700
lots of servers; as I say, if you go to[br]the actual, funkwhale.audio website, erm,

0:37:12.800,0:37:20.600
they're there. Erm, so "Why should I, as[br]a podcaster, decide against a centralized

0:37:20.700,0:37:23.500
platform with lots of users, for a[br]decentralized one with only a few users?

0:37:23.600,0:37:27.200
How can we dramatically increase the[br]visibility of my project, erm my product

0:37:27.300,0:37:32.800
on Funkwhale?" Erm, it's a good question;[br]I mean, the, the thing is with the

0:37:32.900,0:37:39.000
centralized platform, erm, is, you may be[br]on a platform with a lot of users, but

0:37:39.100,0:37:44.600
that doesn't mean that you're actually[br]going to be seen by a lot of users. Erm,

0:37:44.700,0:37:50.900
there is a lot of stuff on Spotify which[br]never gets played. Erm, that, that's just

0:37:51.000,0:37:55.200
*stutters* the fact of it; there are,[br]there are so many... there's so much

0:37:55.300,0:38:00.100
content on there, that, you are just, you[br]know, *chuckles* you're just a grain of

0:38:00.200,0:38:04.400
sand; erm, obviously if you've got, err,[br]err a sort of established fan-base, and

0:38:04.500,0:38:07.100
you've got a lot of people already[br]listening to you, then that doesn't

0:38:07.200,0:38:11.300
affect you, but, in that case, it also[br]wouldn't affect you if you were

0:38:11.400,0:38:15.100
decentralized. Those same people would[br]still be listening, and in fact you would

0:38:15.200,0:38:20.100
be able to reach more people; erm,[br]podcasts, kind of, allow for

0:38:20.200,0:38:24.600
word-of-mouth in a way that something[br]centralized doesn't. It can be passed

0:38:24.700,0:38:30.100
around a lot more, err, sort of, virally.[br]Erm, as for, you know, Funkwhale, I mean,

0:38:30.200,0:38:35.400
Funkwhale's greatest strength is the[br]Fediverse, erm, with this. Err, so, the

0:38:35.500,0:38:39.900
fact that the audio can be shared between[br]peoples' servers, and sort of streamed

0:38:40.000,0:38:43.000
directly from server to server, the fact[br]that it can be followed on a multitude of

0:38:43.100,0:38:47.600
different, err, platforms, is where the[br]visibility would come from; it's that

0:38:47.700,0:38:52.000
sort of viral sharing. But the fact that[br]it also works outside of Funkwhale, it

0:38:52.100,0:38:57.300
also works, err, just using a traditional[br]sort of podcatcher, also plays into its

0:38:57.400,0:39:02.500
favour, and that's where Spotify kind of[br]falls apart. Erm, yes, Spotify has a lot

0:39:02.600,0:39:07.300
of users, but erm, you do kind of cut off[br]an entire core audience, which is the

0:39:07.400,0:39:14.300
concern. Erm... yeah. It, it's, it's not[br]the, there's no simple answer *chuckles*

0:39:14.400,0:39:19.900
to this is, is kind of the way it goes,[br]but erm, I feel like, erm, the point made

0:39:20.000,0:39:24.100
earlier in the, in the chat, which was[br]that, if you centralize it and you lock

0:39:24.200,0:39:27.500
it behind a walled garden it's no longer[br]really a podcast; it kind, that kind of

0:39:27.600,0:39:31.800
stands; it's not a podcast, technically,[br]any more. It's something different, and

0:39:31.900,0:39:36.200
that's not necessarily a bad thing, but[br]it is true; it's no longer what it is was

0:39:36.300,0:39:43.600
originally supposed to be. Erm, so, you[br]know, it, it, it is best, I think, to try

0:39:43.700,0:39:47.700
and make use of, err, of, you know, tools[br]that fit into the existing podcast

0:39:47.800,0:39:59.300
infrastructure. OK: that looks like all[br]of the questions; I don't think anybody's

0:39:59.400,0:40:07.200
calling in, which is fine... So, with[br]that being the case, if there's no more

0:40:07.300,0:40:12.000
questions, erm, thank you very much for[br]listening to me ramble about, erm,

0:40:12.100,0:40:18.900
*laughs* podcast, err, for forty minutes![br]Erm, obviously, if, if you'd like to

0:40:19.000,0:40:25.400
check the project out, it's just at, at[br]funkwhale.audio. Erm, but also, go out

0:40:25.500,0:40:28.800
and support your favourite podcasters,[br]whatever platform they're on. Erm, you

0:40:29.100,0:40:34.400
know, god knows they'd appreciate it[br]*laughs* Especially in these times. Err,

0:40:34.500,0:40:41.000
thank you very much, erm, I think, that's[br]where I'm gonna' call it quits!

0:40:47.500,0:40:51.000
Herald: I think we have a phone call.[br]Ciarán Ainsworth: OK.

0:40:57.000,0:41:00.700
Herald: Someone on the phone?[br]Question: Ah, yeah?

0:41:00.800,0:41:02.000
Ciarán: Hello?[br]Q: Hi.

0:41:02.100,0:41:03.100
Ciarán: Hello!

0:41:05.000,0:41:11.600
*phone line hisses* I just wondered[br]whether you're familiar with a website

0:41:11.700,0:41:16.300
called forgotify.com. You brought up[br]earlier that there's, like, tons of audio

0:41:16.400,0:41:21.100
that has never been heard of, and that's[br]basically sites, so it's like a song, or

0:41:21.200,0:41:24.100
a piece of material on Spotify that[br]has never been heard of before.

0:41:24.200,0:41:28.900
Ciarán: Hmm. What was the name[br]of the site again, sorry?

0:41:29.000,0:41:33.600
Q: Err, forgotify.com[br]Ciarán: Oh, no, I've not heard of that!

0:41:33.700,0:41:37.800
That's quite interesting. So is it, it-[br]it just plays stuff that doesn't get

0:41:37.900,0:41:41.100
played much on Spotify?[br]Q: Yeah, you just click, click on a

0:41:41.200,0:41:47.400
button and it literally shows you, like,[br]a random song, or another piece of audio

0:41:47.500,0:41:52.000
that has been, like, distributing on[br]Spotify but never heard before. I even

0:41:52.100,0:41:55.500
found some tracks from[br]2008/2009, I'm not sure.

0:41:55.600,0:41:59.100
Ciarán: That's... great! *laughs* I[br]really like, I really like that idea.

0:41:59.200,0:42:04.200
Yeah, I, that, that is a, a genuine[br]concern; I, I, when I was, erm, I used to

0:42:04.300,0:42:08.600
use Google+ a lot, because I'm that kind[br]of person, and I was part of, erm, sort

0:42:08.700,0:42:12.900
of 'publishing muscians', err, club, and[br]I had people on there who published on

0:42:13.000,0:42:16.800
Spotify and they never got listened to.[br]You know, it does take quite a lot for

0:42:16.900,0:42:20.900
you to, to actually get picked up[br]Spotify's algorithms and to be, sort of,

0:42:21.000,0:42:26.000
err, prioritised. So, I- it's not the[br]best solution for podcasters; I think

0:42:26.100,0:42:29.100
there's a reason that only[br]already-popular podcasts are getting

0:42:29.200,0:42:32.800
picked up for Spotify circulation. But,[br]you know, that, that sort of project

0:42:32.900,0:42:35.800
sounds really interesting, because it'd[br]be fascinating to see what gets forgotten

0:42:35.900,0:42:39.000
down the sort of 'cracks of the[br]seat', *chuckles* so to speak!

0:42:39.100,0:42:43.400
Q: Yeah. It's also exhausting to play the[br]game of the admin work and stuff; I think

0:42:43.500,0:42:48.000
that's, like, one of the main reasons why[br]I'm not making music myself. Things sound

0:42:48.100,0:42:52.500
*phone line cuts out*, personally. So[br]that's why *phone line cuts out*.

0:42:52.600,0:42:58.600
Ciarán: Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is.[br]Q: Anyways, thanks a lot; I'm not, I'm

0:42:58.700,0:43:02.700
not affiliated with the site. I just[br]like, found it very random and decided to

0:43:02.800,0:43:05.200
share that. Thanks.[br]Ciarán: No, thank you very much,

0:43:05.300,0:43:08.600
that's really interesting.[br]Q: See you around!

0:43:08.700,0:43:10.000
Ciarán: Thank you; bye!

0:43:12.800,0:43:20.500
OK, if, err, we don't have any more[br]calls... Going once, going twice!

0:43:20.600,0:43:28.000
Ciarán: *chuckles* OK![br]Herald: No more calls.

0:43:28.100,0:43:31.900
Ciarán: OK, thank you again for, for[br]coming to, to watch, and I hope you

0:43:32.000,0:43:35.300
have, err, a great rest of your[br]conference, err, looks like it's

0:43:35.400,0:43:36.600
going to be a lot of fun.

0:43:37.000,0:43:42.900
*postroll music*

0:43:43.000,0:44:16.000
*postroll music*[br]Captions by Sebastian 'seabass' Crane