1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,023 Helen Walters: Huang, it's so good to see you. 2 00:00:03,047 --> 00:00:05,368 Thank you for joining us. How's your 2020 been? 3 00:00:05,392 --> 00:00:08,786 Huang Hung: My 2020 started totally normal. 4 00:00:08,810 --> 00:00:12,513 In January, I went to Paris, 5 00:00:12,537 --> 00:00:15,842 did my interview for the fashion week there, 6 00:00:15,866 --> 00:00:19,527 came back to Beijing on January 22nd, 7 00:00:19,551 --> 00:00:22,762 and finding things a little bit tense 8 00:00:22,786 --> 00:00:25,728 because there were a lot of rumors. 9 00:00:25,752 --> 00:00:29,155 Having lived through SARS, 10 00:00:29,179 --> 00:00:31,371 I wasn't that concerned. 11 00:00:31,395 --> 00:00:36,621 And on the 23rd, I had a friend of mine from New York come to my house 12 00:00:36,645 --> 00:00:38,169 who had a flu, 13 00:00:38,193 --> 00:00:40,173 and we had dinner together, 14 00:00:40,197 --> 00:00:42,566 and another friend who came, 15 00:00:42,590 --> 00:00:47,319 who left the next day for Australia for vacation on an airplane. 16 00:00:47,343 --> 00:00:51,905 So we were not taking this terribly seriously 17 00:00:51,929 --> 00:00:54,367 until there was a lockdown. 18 00:00:54,391 --> 00:00:56,547 HW: And we've seen that echo around the world. 19 00:00:56,571 --> 00:00:59,963 I think still some people find it hard to understand the magnitude 20 00:00:59,987 --> 00:01:02,176 of some of the measures that China took. 21 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,160 I mean -- what else are we missing about China's response in all of this? 22 00:01:06,184 --> 00:01:07,918 HH: You know, historically, 23 00:01:07,942 --> 00:01:12,958 we're just two very different countries 24 00:01:12,982 --> 00:01:15,358 in terms of culture and history. 25 00:01:15,382 --> 00:01:21,508 I mean, these are two completely different human experiences for its people. 26 00:01:21,532 --> 00:01:23,578 So, for China, 27 00:01:24,493 --> 00:01:26,701 when the lockdown happens, 28 00:01:27,630 --> 00:01:31,342 people are OK. 29 00:01:31,366 --> 00:01:32,835 People are OK with it, 30 00:01:32,859 --> 00:01:36,837 because they think that's what a good parent should do. 31 00:01:36,861 --> 00:01:39,269 You know, if a kid gets sick, 32 00:01:39,293 --> 00:01:40,952 you put him in the other room, 33 00:01:40,976 --> 00:01:45,481 and you lock him up and make sure that the other kids don't get sick. 34 00:01:45,505 --> 00:01:48,388 And they expect that out of the government. 35 00:01:48,412 --> 00:01:54,030 But when it is outside of China, from America, it becomes a huge issue 36 00:01:54,054 --> 00:01:56,274 of the right political thing to do 37 00:01:56,298 --> 00:02:00,293 and whether it's infringing on personal freedom. 38 00:02:00,317 --> 00:02:04,548 So the issues that you have to deal with in a democratic society 39 00:02:04,572 --> 00:02:09,022 are issues that one does not have to deal with in China. 40 00:02:09,046 --> 00:02:11,973 I have to say that there's a word in Chinese 41 00:02:11,997 --> 00:02:15,202 that doesn't exist in any other language, 42 00:02:15,226 --> 00:02:17,713 and the word is called "guāi." 43 00:02:17,737 --> 00:02:20,479 It is what you call a kid 44 00:02:20,503 --> 00:02:24,142 who listens to his or her parents. 45 00:02:24,166 --> 00:02:28,342 So I think, as a people, we are very "guāi." 46 00:02:28,366 --> 00:02:31,475 We have this sort of authoritarian figure 47 00:02:31,499 --> 00:02:34,891 that Chinese always look up to, 48 00:02:34,915 --> 00:02:39,505 and they do expect the government to actually take the actions, 49 00:02:39,529 --> 00:02:41,709 and they will deal with it. 50 00:02:41,733 --> 00:02:44,570 However much suffering there is, 51 00:02:44,594 --> 00:02:50,537 they feel that, OK, if big brother says that this has to be done, 52 00:02:50,561 --> 00:02:52,502 then it must be done. 53 00:02:52,526 --> 00:02:57,681 And that really defines China as a separate mentality, 54 00:02:57,705 --> 00:03:00,291 Chinese has a separate mentality, 55 00:03:00,315 --> 00:03:04,249 as, say, people in Europe and America. 56 00:03:04,273 --> 00:03:06,301 HW: That sense of collective responsibility 57 00:03:06,325 --> 00:03:10,625 sometimes feels a little absent from this culture. 58 00:03:10,649 --> 00:03:14,199 At the same time, there are, I think, valid concerns 59 00:03:14,223 --> 00:03:18,804 around surveillance and data privacy, things like that. 60 00:03:18,828 --> 00:03:20,040 What is the balance here, 61 00:03:20,064 --> 00:03:24,594 and what is the right trade-off between surveillance and freedom? 62 00:03:25,467 --> 00:03:28,623 HH: I think in the internet age, 63 00:03:28,647 --> 00:03:33,634 it is somewhere between China and the US. 64 00:03:33,658 --> 00:03:40,035 I think when you take individual freedom 65 00:03:40,059 --> 00:03:42,631 versus collective safety, 66 00:03:42,655 --> 00:03:45,459 there has to be a balance somewhere there. 67 00:03:45,483 --> 00:03:51,293 With surveillance, the head of Baidu, Robin Li, once said 68 00:03:51,317 --> 00:03:57,225 the Chinese people are quite willing to give up certain individual rights 69 00:03:57,249 --> 00:03:59,400 in exchange for convenience. 70 00:03:59,424 --> 00:04:04,195 Actually, he was completely criticized on Chinese social media, 71 00:04:04,219 --> 00:04:05,823 but I think he is right. 72 00:04:05,847 --> 00:04:09,313 Chinese people are willing to give up certain rights. 73 00:04:09,337 --> 00:04:11,820 For example, we have ... 74 00:04:12,834 --> 00:04:16,329 Chinese mostly are very proud of the payment system we have, 75 00:04:16,353 --> 00:04:19,674 which is you can go anywhere just with your iPhone 76 00:04:19,698 --> 00:04:21,135 and pay for everything, 77 00:04:21,159 --> 00:04:22,894 and all they do is face-scan. 78 00:04:22,918 --> 00:04:26,523 I think that probably freaks Americans out. 79 00:04:26,547 --> 00:04:31,182 You know, China right now, we're still under semi-lockdown, 80 00:04:31,206 --> 00:04:35,889 so if you go anywhere, there's an app where you scan 81 00:04:35,913 --> 00:04:39,156 and you input your mobile phone number, 82 00:04:39,180 --> 00:04:45,736 and the app will tell the guard at the entrance of the mall, for example, 83 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,382 where you have been for the past 14 days. 84 00:04:48,406 --> 00:04:51,226 Now, when I told that to an American, 85 00:04:51,250 --> 00:04:52,757 she was horrified, 86 00:04:52,781 --> 00:04:56,825 and she thought it was such an invasion of privacy. 87 00:04:56,849 --> 00:04:59,258 On the other hand, 88 00:04:59,282 --> 00:05:01,367 as someone who is Chinese 89 00:05:01,391 --> 00:05:06,539 and has lived in China for the past 20 years, 90 00:05:06,563 --> 00:05:09,877 although I understand that American mentality, 91 00:05:09,901 --> 00:05:15,086 I still find I'm Chinese enough to think, "I don't mind this, 92 00:05:15,110 --> 00:05:19,897 and I am better, I feel safer entering the mall 93 00:05:19,921 --> 00:05:22,962 because everybody has been scanned," 94 00:05:22,986 --> 00:05:29,986 whereas, I think individual freedom as an abstract concept 95 00:05:30,010 --> 00:05:32,414 in a pandemic like this 96 00:05:32,438 --> 00:05:34,577 is actually really meaningless. 97 00:05:34,601 --> 00:05:40,206 So I think the West really needs to move a step towards the East 98 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:43,660 and to think about the collective as a whole 99 00:05:43,684 --> 00:05:46,800 rather than only think about oneself as an individual. 100 00:05:46,824 --> 00:05:49,843 HW: The rise of antagonistic rhetoric between the US and China 101 00:05:49,867 --> 00:05:51,506 is obviously troubling, 102 00:05:51,530 --> 00:05:54,073 and the thing is, the countries are interlinked 103 00:05:54,097 --> 00:05:57,443 whether people understand global supply chains or not. 104 00:05:57,467 --> 00:05:59,652 Where do you think we head next? 105 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:04,561 HH: You know, this is the most horrifying thing that came out of this, 106 00:06:04,585 --> 00:06:10,632 the kind of nationalistic sentiments on both sides in this pandemic. 107 00:06:10,656 --> 00:06:12,586 Because I'm an optimist, 108 00:06:12,610 --> 00:06:16,473 I think what will come out of this 109 00:06:16,497 --> 00:06:22,228 is that both sides will realize that this is a fight 110 00:06:22,252 --> 00:06:26,270 that the entire human race has to do together and not apart. 111 00:06:26,294 --> 00:06:28,455 Despite the rhetoric, 112 00:06:28,479 --> 00:06:33,940 the global economy has grown to such an integration 113 00:06:33,964 --> 00:06:40,029 that decoupling will be extremely costly and painful 114 00:06:40,053 --> 00:06:42,773 for both the United States and China. 115 00:06:42,797 --> 00:06:44,571 HW: It's also been interesting to me 116 00:06:44,595 --> 00:06:48,811 to see the criticism that China has received quite vocally. 117 00:06:48,835 --> 00:06:53,584 For instance, they've been criticized for downplaying the death toll, 118 00:06:53,608 --> 00:06:54,971 arguably, 119 00:06:54,995 --> 00:06:57,077 also for trying to demonize Dr. Li, 120 00:06:57,101 --> 00:07:03,392 the Wuhan doctor who first raised the alarm about the coronavirus. 121 00:07:03,416 --> 00:07:05,473 I just saw a report in "The New York Times" 122 00:07:05,497 --> 00:07:11,193 that Weibo users have been posting repeatedly on the last post of Dr. Li 123 00:07:11,217 --> 00:07:14,445 and using this as kind of a living memorial to him, 124 00:07:14,469 --> 00:07:15,630 chatting to him. 125 00:07:15,654 --> 00:07:19,382 There's something like 870,000 comments and growing 126 00:07:19,406 --> 00:07:20,985 on that last post. 127 00:07:21,009 --> 00:07:24,093 Do you see a change in the media? 128 00:07:24,117 --> 00:07:27,054 Do you see a change in the approach to Chinese leadership 129 00:07:27,078 --> 00:07:31,415 that actually could lead to China swinging perhaps more to the center, 130 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:35,749 just as perhaps America needs to swing more towards a Chinese model? 131 00:07:35,773 --> 00:07:38,326 HH: Unfortunately, not really, 132 00:07:38,350 --> 00:07:43,019 because I think there is a way 133 00:07:43,043 --> 00:07:47,388 between authoritarian governments and its people to communicate. 134 00:07:47,412 --> 00:07:50,480 The night that Dr. Li died, 135 00:07:50,504 --> 00:07:54,811 when it was announced that he died, 136 00:07:54,835 --> 00:07:57,173 the Chinese social media just blew up. 137 00:07:57,197 --> 00:08:00,036 Even though he was unjustly treated as a whistleblower, 138 00:08:00,060 --> 00:08:02,477 he still went to work in the hospital 139 00:08:02,501 --> 00:08:04,991 and tried to save lives as a doctor, 140 00:08:05,015 --> 00:08:06,817 and then he died 141 00:08:06,841 --> 00:08:08,502 because he contracted the disease. 142 00:08:08,526 --> 00:08:11,121 So there was anger, frustration, 143 00:08:11,145 --> 00:08:13,584 and all of that came out 144 00:08:13,608 --> 00:08:16,600 in kind of commemorating a figure 145 00:08:16,624 --> 00:08:20,014 that they feel that the government had wronged. 146 00:08:20,038 --> 00:08:21,198 The verdict 147 00:08:22,121 --> 00:08:26,572 and sort of the official voice on: 148 00:08:26,596 --> 00:08:29,884 "Who is Dr. Li? Is he a good guy or a bad guy?" 149 00:08:29,908 --> 00:08:33,319 completely changed 180 degrees. 150 00:08:33,343 --> 00:08:37,802 He went from a doctor who misbehaved 151 00:08:37,826 --> 00:08:40,346 to the hero who warned the people. 152 00:08:40,370 --> 00:08:43,811 So under authoritarian government, 153 00:08:43,835 --> 00:08:48,653 they still are very aware of public opinion, 154 00:08:48,677 --> 00:08:50,746 but, on the other hand, 155 00:08:50,770 --> 00:08:55,567 when people complain and when they commemorate Dr. Li, 156 00:08:55,591 --> 00:08:58,020 do they really want to change the system? 157 00:08:58,588 --> 00:09:01,611 And my answer is no, 158 00:09:01,635 --> 00:09:05,663 because they don't like that particular decision, 159 00:09:05,687 --> 00:09:08,176 but they don't want to change the system. 160 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,027 And one of the reasons is because 161 00:09:10,051 --> 00:09:13,554 they have never, ever known another system. 162 00:09:13,578 --> 00:09:16,119 This is the system they know how to work. 163 00:09:17,516 --> 00:09:19,457 HW: What is wok-throwing, Huang? 164 00:09:19,481 --> 00:09:24,530 HH: Oh, wok-throwing is when you blame somebody else. 165 00:09:24,554 --> 00:09:30,387 Basically, someone who is responsible in a slang Chinese 166 00:09:30,411 --> 00:09:33,537 is someone who carries a black wok. 167 00:09:33,561 --> 00:09:39,326 You are made to be the scapegoat for something that is bad. 168 00:09:39,350 --> 00:09:43,989 So basically, Trump started calling it the "Chinese virus," 169 00:09:44,013 --> 00:09:45,269 the "Wuhan virus," 170 00:09:45,293 --> 00:09:51,627 and trying to blame the entire coronavirus pandemic 171 00:09:51,651 --> 00:09:52,843 on the Chinese. 172 00:09:52,867 --> 00:09:57,142 And then the Chinese, I think, threw the wok back at the Americans. 173 00:09:57,166 --> 00:10:02,333 So it was a very funny joke on Chinese social media, 174 00:10:02,357 --> 00:10:03,621 that wok-throwing. 175 00:10:03,645 --> 00:10:09,778 There's a wok-throwing gymnastics aerobics exercise video that went viral. 176 00:10:09,802 --> 00:10:10,964 HW: But tell us, Huang: 177 00:10:10,988 --> 00:10:13,501 You're also doing dances on TikTok, right? 178 00:10:13,525 --> 00:10:15,128 HH: Oh, of course. 179 00:10:15,152 --> 00:10:19,308 I'm doing a lot of wok-throwing aerobics on TikTok. 180 00:10:19,332 --> 00:10:23,115 HW: I mean, a potential silver lining of all of this is that it has laid bare 181 00:10:23,139 --> 00:10:26,812 some of the inequities, inequalities in the system, 182 00:10:26,836 --> 00:10:29,351 some of the broken structures that we have, 183 00:10:29,375 --> 00:10:32,503 and if we're smart, we can rebuild better. 184 00:10:32,527 --> 00:10:36,091 HH: Yes. I think one of the silver linings of this pandemic 185 00:10:36,115 --> 00:10:39,525 is that we do realize 186 00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:47,076 that the human race has to do something together 187 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:53,013 rather than to be distinguished by our race, by the color of our skin 188 00:10:53,037 --> 00:10:55,016 or by our nationality; 189 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:00,761 that this virus obviously is not discriminating against anyone, 190 00:11:00,785 --> 00:11:02,910 whether you are rich or poor, 191 00:11:02,934 --> 00:11:05,098 important or not important 192 00:11:05,122 --> 00:11:08,919 or whatever skin color or nationality you are. 193 00:11:08,943 --> 00:11:12,431 So it is a time to be together, 194 00:11:12,455 --> 00:11:16,458 rather than to try to pull the world apart 195 00:11:16,482 --> 00:11:20,067 and crawl back to our own nationalistic shells. 196 00:11:20,535 --> 00:11:22,047 HW: It's a beautiful sentiment. 197 00:11:22,071 --> 00:11:24,846 Huang Hung, thank you so much for joining us from Beijing. 198 00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:26,252 Stay well, please. 199 00:11:27,324 --> 00:11:29,834 HH: Thank you, Helen, and you stay well as well.