1 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Helen Walters: Huang, it's so good to see you. 2 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Thank you for joining us. How's your 2020 been? 3 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Huang Hung: My 2020 started totally normal. 4 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 In January, I went to Paris, 5 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 did my interview for the fashion week there, 6 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 came back to Beijing on January 22nd, 7 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and finding things a little bit tense 8 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because there were a lot of rumors. 9 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Having lived through SARS, 10 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I wasn't that concerned, 11 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and on the 23rd, I had a friend of mine from New York come to my house 12 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who had a flu, 13 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we had dinner together, 14 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and another friend who came who left the next day for Australia 15 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for vacation on an airplane. 16 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So we were not taking this terribly seriously, 17 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 until there was a lockdown. 18 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: And we've seen that echo around the world. 19 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think still some people find it hard to understand the magnitude 20 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of some of the measures that China took. 21 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, what else are we missing about China's response in all of this? 22 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: You know, historically, 23 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we're just two very different countries 24 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in terms of culture and history. 25 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, these are two completely different human experiences for its people. 26 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So for China, when the lockdown happens, 27 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people are OK. 28 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 People are OK with it, 29 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because the think that's what a good parent should do. 30 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You know, if a kid gets sick, 31 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you put him in the other room 32 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and you lock him up and make sure that the other kids don't get sick. 33 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And they expect that out of the government. 34 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But when it is outside of China, from America, it becomes a huge issue 35 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the right political thing to do 36 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and whether it's infringing on personal freedom. 37 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So the issues that you have to deal with in a democratic society 38 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are issues that one does not have to deal with in China. 39 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I have to say that there's a word in Chinese 40 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that doesn't exist in any other language, 41 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the word is called [??]. 42 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It is what you call a kid 43 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who listens to his or her parents. 44 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So I think we are very, as a people, we are very [??]. 45 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We have this sort of authoritarian figure 46 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that Chinese always look up to, 47 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and they do expect the government to actually take the actions, 48 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and they will deal with it. 49 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 However much suffering there is, 50 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they feel that, OK, if big brother says that this has to be done, 51 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 then it must be done. 52 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that really defines China as a separate mentality, 53 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Chinese as a separate mentality, 54 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as, say, people in Europe and America. 55 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: That sense of collective responsibility 56 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 sometimes feels a little absent from this culture. 57 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 At the same time, 58 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there are I think valid concerns around surveillance 59 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and data privacy, things like that. 60 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What is the balance here, 61 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and what is the right tradeoff between surveillance and freedom? 62 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: I think in the internet age, 63 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it is somewhere between China and the US. 64 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think when you take individual freedom versus collective safety, 65 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there has to be a balance somewhere there. 66 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 With surveillance, the head of Baidu, Robin Li, once said 67 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the Chinese people are quite willing to give up certain individual rights 68 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in exchange for convenience. 69 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Actually, he was completely criticized on Chinese social media, 70 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but I think he is right. 71 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Chinese people are willing to give up certain rights. 72 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 For example, we have, Chinese mostly are very proud 73 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the payment system we have, 74 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is you can go anywhere just with your iPhone 75 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and pay for everything, and all they do is face scan. 76 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think that probably freaks Americans out. 77 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You know, China right now, we're still under semi-lockdown, 78 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so if you go anywhere, there's an app where you scan 79 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and you input your mobile phone number, 80 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the app will tell the guard at the entrance of the mall, for example, 81 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 where you have been for the past 14 days. 82 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, when I told that to an American, 83 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 she was horrified, 84 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and she thought it was such an invasion of privacy. 85 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 On the other hand, 86 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as someone who is Chinese 87 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and has lived in China for the past 20 years, 88 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 although I understand that American mentality, 89 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I still find I'm Chinese enough to think, I don't mind this, 90 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I am better, I feel safer entering the mall 91 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because everybody has been scanned. 92 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Whereas, I think individual freedom 93 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as an abstract concept 94 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in a pandemic like this 95 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is actually really meaningless. 96 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So I think the West really needs to move a step towards the East 97 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and to think about the collective 98 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as a whole 99 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 rather than only think about oneself as an individual. 100 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: The rise of antagonistic rhetoric between the US and China 101 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is obviously troubling, 102 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the thing is, the countries are interlinked 103 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 whether people understand global supply chains or not. 104 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Where do you think we head next? 105 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: You know, this is the most horrifying thing that came out of this, 106 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the kind of nationalistic sentiments on both sides in this pandemic. 107 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because I'm an optimist, 108 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think what will come out of this 109 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is that both sides will realize 110 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that this is a fight 111 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that the entire human race has to do together and not apart. 112 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Despite the rhetoric, 113 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the global economy has grown to such an integration 114 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that decoupling will be extremely costly and painful 115 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for both the United States and China. 116 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: It's also been interesting to me 117 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to see the criticism that China has received quite vocally. 118 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 For instance, they've been criticized for downplaying the death toll, 119 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 arguably, 120 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 also for trying to demonize Dr. Li, 121 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the Wuhan doctor who first raised the alarm about the coronavirus. 122 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I just saw a report in The New York Times 123 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that Weibo users have been posting repeatedly on the last post of Dr. Li 124 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and using this as kind of a living memorial to him, 125 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 chatting to him. 126 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's something like 870,000 comments and growing 127 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on that last post. 128 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Do you see a change in the media? 129 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Do you see a change in the approach to Chinese leadership 130 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that actually could lead to China swinging perhaps more to the center, 131 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just as perhaps America needs to swing more towards a Chinese model? 132 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: Unfortunately, not really, 133 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because I think there is a way 134 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 between authoritarian governments and its people to communicate. 135 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The night that Dr. Li died, 136 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when it was announced that he died, 137 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the Chinese social media just blew up. 138 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Even though he was unjustly treated as a whistleblower, 139 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he still went to work in the hospital 140 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and tried to save lives as a doctor, 141 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then he died 142 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because he contracted the disease. 143 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So there was anger, frustration, 144 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and all of that came out 145 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in kind of commemorating a figure 146 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that they feel that the government had wronged. 147 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The verdict and the official voice, 148 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who is Dr. Li, 149 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is he a good guy or a bad guy, 150 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 completely changed 180 degrees. 151 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 He went from a doctor who misbehaved 152 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to the hero who warned the people. 153 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So under authoritarian government, 154 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they still are very aware of public opinion, 155 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but, on the other hand, 156 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when people complain and when they commemorate Dr. Li, 157 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 do they really want to change the system? 158 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And my answer is no, 159 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because they don't like that particular decision, 160 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but they don't want to change the system, 161 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and one of the reasons 162 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is that they have never, ever known another system. 163 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This is the system they know how to work. 164 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: What is wok-throwing, Huang? 165 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: Oh, wok-throwing is when you blame somebody else. 166 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Basically, someone who is responsible 167 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in a slang Chinese is someone who carries a black wok. 168 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You are made to be the scapegoat 169 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for something that is bad. 170 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So basically, Trump started calling it the Chinese virus, 171 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the Wuhan virus, 172 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and trying to blame the entire coronavirus pandemic on the Chinese, 173 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then the Chinese I think threw the wok back at the Americans. 174 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So it was a very funny joke on Chinese social media 175 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that wok-throwing. 176 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 There's a wok-throwing gymastics exercise aerobic video that went viral. 177 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: But tell us, Huang, 178 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you're also doing dances on TikTok, right? 179 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: Of course. 180 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I'm doing a lot of wok-throwing aerobics on TikTok. 181 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: I mean, a potential silver lining of all of this is that it has laid bare 182 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some of the inequities, inequalities in the system, 183 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some of the broken structures that we have, 184 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and if we're smart we can rebuild better. 185 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: Yes. I think one of the silver linings of this pandemic 186 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is that we do realize 187 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that the human race has to do something together 188 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 rather than to be distinguished by our race, by the color of our skin, 189 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or by our nationality, 190 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that this virus obviously 191 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is not discriminating against anyone, 192 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 whether you are rich or poor, 193 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 important or not important, 194 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or whatever skin color or nationality you are. 195 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So it is a time to be together, 196 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 rather than to try to pull the world apart 197 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and crawl back to our own nationalistic shells. 198 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HW: It's a beautiful sentiment. 199 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Huang Hung, thank you so much for joining us from Beijing. 200 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Stay well, please. 201 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HH: Thank you, Helen, and you stay well as well.